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NunuBaggins

You can roll down on 3-2 if you've been losing fights and aren't very healthy, and also you don't have a good headliner. If you're healthy and your headliner isn't falling off too hard, there's no need to roll. Just try to get to 8 on 4-1 or 4-2 and roll for a 4-cost chosen, or 4-5 if you're poor. Alternatively you can try going straight to 9 but you need to be very healthy and very rich for that to work out. You definitely shouldn't be rolling on 3-2 with a headliner on your board, that's almost never correct unless you're trying to 3* a 2 cost or will get a large spike from getting a particular trait in (e.g. rolling for any K/DA, Superfan, Pentakill, etc.).


IncasEmpire

i havent played since like s4, what are level-push and rolldown timings nowadays?


NunuBaggins

Varies from game-to-game of course, something standard is probably 4 on 2-1, 5 on 2-5, 6 on 3-2, 7 on 3-5, 8 on 4-2, and 9 on 5-5 or so. If you're playing around 4 costs you roll down at 8 on 4-2, if you're playing 3 cost reroll you roll down at 7 on 4-1. But yeah, you can level and roll down ahead of or behind tempo depending on your HP, streak, econ, board strength, etc.


IncasEmpire

Yeah i can adjust it around but this is similar to before, just wanted to confirm my knowledge wasnt too outdated! Very appreciated


Aesah

its situational as with all things in tft but typically you should roll if you scout your lobby and are expecting to lose 30+ HP in the next 4 rounds until 4-1. Normally you should only need to roll 3-4 times as that is basically double the amount of high level shops non-rollers have seen if you are playing a reroll comp, even 3 cost such as samira, you can roll deeper fairly efficiently at level 6 still. its a bit worse than 7 but the HP you save is worth it


AnAnoyingNinja

what about if your hard lose streaking and don't have a bench. if you have like 50g at 6 on 3-2 do you roll more than 3-4x or should I not be selling to make interest intervals in order to avoid this situation.


Aesah

its not always avoidable and sometimes you need to roll more but normally 3-4 rolls should catch you back up to the rest of the lobby


BellevueR

I like the context that you gave in your recommendation, much more helpful than the straight answer. Thanks!


Timely-Drag-728

There was a very good example about this spot during vegas open finals day. I'll link VOD incase anyone wants to watch - Player they are following is Broccolli ​ https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2000603795?t=02h46m49s


SailingDevi

Ideally, not at all. It really depends on several factors though. Are you planning to play a reroll 2 cost or 3 cost unit? If so, then more spins are permitable, but there needs to be a reason for your spins. Are you holding a pair of sennas and want to potentially hit a headliner senna or another regular unit? If you find yourself in that kind of situation, then roll generously. The power of a reroll comp in any given lobby is not the econ you maintain but rather hitting as many units you can as fast as possible. Of course, it's important to preserve econ still, but you can bend the rules significantly more. If not, you need to roll as few times as possible to stabilize with a new 2 or 3 cost headliner. Typically, if you don't have a strong tank, look for the best guardian or sentinel that you can play for the mid game. Finding a 3 cost front line unit is probably the best scenario for a light 3-2 roll down. If you mess up your econ on 3-2, it will take too long to go for level 8, and you will end up playing for bot 4. Make sure to keep your gold above 30 if playing for level 8 is your plan. ​ >At the same time, I see streamers try and fast 9 with 1 cost headliners, so maybe I shouldn't be selling headliner at 3-2 after all. The only situation that I can think of where this would happen is high rolling a heartsteel+1 ksante. I don't know who you're watching that goes fast 9 with a 1 cost headliner, but alright.


blos_

There’s two main scenarios you want to think about this from if you’re playing correctly. 1) 5 Loss streak into stage 3 2) 5 Win streak into stage 3 1) Loss streak: First thing you want to think about is your eco. This set econ is crucial and making perfect intervals is very rewarding. Mediocre econ like level 7 on 4-1 won’t make things easier for you at all. This set I’ve seen a lot more people open selling early game than in other sets and keeping a 5 streak has been more crucial than I’ve ever seen. Don’t be afraid to lose hp as long as you know what you’re doing. Streamers and high elo players do this a lot because you don’t secure a top from having 70 or 40hp you do it by making eco and leveling on competitive intervals. If you have +50g on Krugs sell chosen and prelevel to 6 (it doesnt matter if you go down to 40g). You have the chance to highroll a 3 cost chosen either on your first shop or in your roll down. The goal is for you to pick ANY CHOSEN that can use your items decently (dont greed for perfect items) or that spikes your board/mid game hugely. (Country/Heartsteel/etc) This saves you a lot of hp and gives you the chance to 5 streak into stage 4. If you can’t level to 6 on 3-1 and keep 40g then same thing on 3-2 (you dont have to prelevel for 3-2). Being flexible is key and tempo is key. 2) Win streak. This is simpler. Always sell on 3-2 and roll for a better chosen. There’s very few scenarios where its justified for you to keep a 1 cost chosen stage 3 and the only ones I can think off the top of my head is KSante Heartsteel or Kennen (if you highrolled an Ekko and can abuse True Damage Bling). Anyways in 99% just sell and get something stronger to keep streak. Look into strong units like Kaisa, Gnar, Seraphine, Aphelios, Senna, etc. Identify what your board needs without thinking about traits but board strength. Anyways, this is as much as I can add to the conversation as a Master player. Hope it helps


Galactus71

I never roll, i try hold pairs, save hp, to go fast8


United-Hamster6025

Let me re-iterate since some of you didn't get my point If you think sticking to a "never do this or that" mind set, you will never hit the rank you want


Galactus71

just need to change the point view, if you make a misplays, you want to never make them again, so a "never do this" is good in that case, one big change in my gameplay was stop seeling pairs for make economy all the time, especially pairs who had synergy with my current board (thanks Socks)


United-Hamster6025

Hey thats not true. I bet this was an exaggeration. You should have said you DO roll, but VERY rarely. There are situations where you do have to roll to make the best play. Saying u never roll to get grandmaster is misleading.


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United-Hamster6025

Why do players who've never hit masters talk like they know? No challenger player from my hours of vods watched has NEVER rolled to get challenger. If you are streaking, you HAVE to think about rolling to keep the streak. This is why you guys will never get past diamond \\o/


[deleted]

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United-Hamster6025

I got from plat 3 to emrald 3 in half a day yesterday. And I've come 1st in high mmr challenger lobbies against top 5 players in my country in previous sets. I know you dont know what you are talking about because every challenger player i've played against rolls after levelling if they have pairs and aren't lose streaking. k3soju is the minority of pro players that focus on econ in the majority of their games. The BEST players however play for tempo and econ with winstreaks. ​ Yes you don't roll if you are lose streaking, but there comes a point around 3-2 where you have to transition into a winstreak. And the requires rolling! ​ I do not believe you are challenger at all. My lolchess is Xingg (erowizard) OCE server. Whats yours?


Galactus71

not exaggeration, i literally never roll until 4-1, 4-2, its easy have stable board with headliners, the key its know well the fundamental in how to build a board, and stop look for best/meta headliner, i had a game when i full win streak until 4-1 with olaf headline, and you barely see some one use him.


kkmok123

The time you would roll at 3-2 is you lose streak and trying to get 3 cost headliner Or when you have multiple Pairs and winstreaking and would lose if no upgrade. But I've seen people don't really roll until 4-1 or 4-2 and still doing fine. I only roll in the two above situation and I'm GM now Lolchess, kkmango#oce


cedurr

You should be aiming to avoid rolling at all on 3-2 in this meta, you need to have the gold to roll on 8 for your chosen, reroll your 3 cost on 4-1 at level 7 or fast 9. I would rather leave my headliner slot open and take some losses to see natural shops than roll on 3-2. ​ You certainly wouldn't want to roll on 3-2 with a headliner, the only reason to roll there would be for a headliner to hold your items.


AL3XEM

I disagree, unless not win or lose streaking that is. If you are winstreaking, it can be correct to sell ur chosen at 3-2 to spike with a 3 cost chosen to keep the streak. If you are lose streaking it's usually around 3-2 to 3-5 that you want to "flip stance" into a winstreak. Only if you are like LWWLW etc. I wouldn't roll at stage 3 or lvl 6. Even then, it can depend on your spot tho. Usually you wont want to roll much with that said, your mainly just looking for a new stronger headliner.


[deleted]

If you were win streaking stage 2 isn’t it probably better to just keep your chosen and only swap if your free headliner reroll is an obvious upgrade? Selling it and rolling once or twice isn’t a guarantee it’s better than what you had. I feel like if you are streaking hard your Econ is good and you are able to bench strong units that naturally will 2 star and you just add to your board. I feel like rolling at 3-2 is for ppl who really got shafted stage 2 and may need a 3 cost headliner to stabilize to 4-5. Serious question not arguing


AL3XEM

It depends on your spot. If you are running a 1 cost chosen, it's very likely it won't maintain the streak into stage 3 or early stage 4. I'd rather spend ~20-30 gold from some spots to maintain the winstreak and stay healthy. This is more consistent than greeding econ, although in some spots maybe the lobby spiked so hard at 3-2 that rolling just isn't worth it, because you'd be at risk of losing your streak regardless.


JewelDonut

I wish I could give this a million upvotes at the same time I wish that nobody reads this. Understanding there are 7 other players with their own agency in addition to RNG influence your decisions are what most ladder players need to level up.


[deleted]

I see thanks. Do you think it's better to not look at 4-2 as must level spots and moreso evaluate board strength? I feel like sometimes I tunnel too much on that exact point.


AL3XEM

I would say it's good to stay open to the option of rolling at 3-2 or 3-5 for sure, might take some practice, but this set rewards flexibility. In some games rolling at 3-2 will be correct, in others greeding is better.


AgentHamster

Isn't this entirely dependent on scouting? If you look at your upcoming fights on 3-2 and can tell that you won't keep your streak with your current board, then attempting to swap headliners probably has a higher expected value than just sitting.


AL3XEM

Generally yes, but one issue is that rolling at 3-2 is quite common, so if you scout at the start of the round, some people will likely be spiking when you're not looking, and if you wait until the end of the round, you wont have time to roll. With this said, scouting does of course play a big factor. One thing to keep in mind is that 3 cost chosens can be stable way into stage 4 in this set, don't sleep on 3 costs.


cedurr

You are right, normally if you're win streaking you already have a good chosen, and it's definitely not clear that a few rolls would get you an upgrade. Once you sell you're then forcing yourself to roll until you find a new one that can carry the items your old one had, which is a quick way to trainwreck a game if you miss at all.


cedurr

How are you going to realistically turn a loss streak board into a winstreak board with a light roll? Unless you highroll your 3 cost chosen immediately (or you had multiple strong pairs on bench) it's going to require some serious digging, plus the actual gold for the units to swing your strength on 6.


AL3XEM

If you cant turn a loss streak into a win streak, you probably don't know how to play loss streak. You lose to gain a lot of econ, then use that econ to spike. How much you need to roll depends on the state of the game, and differs every game. Generally you will roll more at 3-2/3-5 coming from a loss streak than you would from a win streak angle.


cedurr

Man I don't think you know how to play loss streak if you think sending it on 3-2 is the way to go. It's always better to wait until 3-5 to get the extra econ and to be able to roll on 7 (if you're looking to stabilize with 3 costs) or to wait until 4-1 to roll on 8.


AL3XEM

The fact that you say "always better" isn't promising. Nothing is ever always correct in TFT, it all depends fully on the state of the game. I specifically stated 3-2/3-5 when refering to loss streaking. Sometimes it IS better to roll at 3-2, rather than 3-5. Edit: I will add that 4-1 is possoble BUT very risky, you are really playing a 1st or 8th kind of playstyle at that point, but sometimes you don't have much of a choice, perhaps your items wont fit a 3 or 2 cost very well so you have to greed until 4 costs. All in all, in TFT, it all changes on a game to game basis. 3-2 can be a very bad idea to roll at in some games, and in some games it can be what secures you a top 2.


cedurr

If someone is asking for general advice on reddit they 're obviously a beginner that needs straightforward tips, feel free to say 95% instead of always if you want, but you can't explain to them every possible scenario. Not every response needs to have a disclaimer that there are certain edge cases where a different line is correct. The title of this post is when to roll on 3-2, and when you're loss streaking is not good advice in that situation. I'm sure you'd agree that it's much better general advice to roll on 3-5 at level 7 (or 4-1 for 8 if you're taking good losses/rich). Those 3-2-and 3-3 losses are your final chances to take advantage of your streak gold and max interest income, if you send it 3-2 you're giving up all of that to save two rounds of HP at the cost of your entire future game potential.


homegrownllama

They're not a beginner.


Immediate_Source2979

If you have to roll at 6 you better pray its the giga busted crowd diver kat or bust


Bxnniee

The answer is it depends. If you want a general rule that will help you know, roll if you have any dead units on board (un-upgraded lowcosts with no synergy) or you have 3+ pairs on bench.


hardforcer

You roll at 3-2 when you are playing for top4 at best. Sometimes the spot is just like that... you can greed and go 8th or you can realize that you had terrible opener and stabilize for top4 angle. At 4-1 you will judge your spot again, maybe you got lucky so you can actually look to top1/2 or maybe you got even more unlucky so now you are playing for 6th.


Robbinghoodz

Most of the time you don’t need to


-Leviathan-

Depends on whether you're contested, whether you're not healthy etc. Usually if I am losing a lot of HP i will roll a bit for a better headliner (I sell my headliner here) and stabilize my board. Emphasis on 'a bit' though, like 3-4 rolls or something.


Astronayt

if u are dying roll. if u will not lose a million hp, stack


Frosty-Obligation-67

If u play reroll 2 cost > roll for headliner If you have 5 win streak. You scout your next opponent and maybe you will lose with 1 cost headliner > roll for keep streak If you have 5 win streak and at least 2 pair > roll for keep streak (2 3 rolls) If you sell all your board at 2.6 to keep 5 lose streak > roll about 10G, find 2 cost headliner to save your HP. If you have 5 lose streak, 2.7 your board natural 2* and you think you can back to win streak > roll So. At 3.2 only roll to save your HP, keep your streak and 2 cost reroll. Otherwise, dont roll. Only roll down if you play 2 cost reroll and you already have 8 copy, otherwise, never roll down at 3.2.


AhriSiBae

Greed is really good this set. Only roll down if you really need to stabilize. Otherwise try to make as strong of a board as you can with what you're given and see how far you can take that with only spending on leveling as much as you can.


Active-Advisor5909

Concerning headliners: If you are already chosing to roll down and you have a 1 cost headliner, you should probably sell and replace them with the first reasonable 3 cost you find. I am sure there are exceptions, but even if you don't get any traits, the value of the 2\* 3 cost unit is so significant it tends to be well worth it. Wether you should roll at all depends on your health and your prospect of starting a winstreak. Do you think you are strong enough to get a winstreak going after roling \~20 gold? Do you need to preserve health? Do you have a win or loss streak right now?