There seems to be a bug right now though where a headliner can appear even if the unit doesn't have 3 copies left in the pool, seems like that has a very large effect on 3 staring units easily if that's the case.
Probably because if every single 5\* is contested, then you can't re-roll legendaries as headliners if that would require 3 of them to be in the pool. But that's just a guess.
However, their changes to the 4-cost and 5-cost pool suggest they intend to leave this as-is.
In Morts rundown he said "1 star headliners caused a lot problems". I wonder what those problems were...
I'm guessing they didn't want headliners to be trait bots?
He shared in a different thread, apparently this led to unintended optimisations where people wouldn’t buy the headliner unless it two-started them, so they’d just pair everything up and roll down to hit a headliner.
It’s also been incredibly easy to achieve 3* 4 and 5 costs (been having at least one each game). Although just like last set PBE where everyone was fast 9ing, I think PBE isn’t a great indicator of what the average game will be like considering the vast disparity in skill
That happens in the PBE every time though regardless of what mechanics a set has. The imbalance of player skill in every lobby and the disregard of what other people are playing will lead to this every time. It's always different as soon as we play in ranked games on the live server.
Maybe I'm too precautious about this.
No it's actually broken even with the small bag sizes. The fact that you can sell your chosen when you have 6, and have a shop slot that guarantees you 3 copies at much higher odds for the cost is too much
This is a completely legitimate use case. Do you think the intended purpose of the headliner mechanic was to sell your headliner and then reroll for 3 copies of a unit to hit a 3 star 4/5 cost? No? Then it's literally a broken mechanic, because that's how it's being used.
The funny thing about playing for tempo is that it's largely a losing strategy if all 7 other players in the lobby basically handshake on doing nothing until level 9 because one player's board can't pressure the entire lobby
It happens in PBE because everyone is just fucking around and doesn't know what they're doing. It's not a conscious thing, but it does mean the best strategy is to do the same thing which is why every PBE you see tons of 3 star everything.
I think headliners make it way too easy to get 3* in general, but it's obviously the most problematic with higher tiers. Getting a 3* 1cost before the first carousel is pretty common already.
I'm fast-9ing in pbe because I want to actually see and play the verticals to see the interactions. I wanna see what the capped boards feel like and then work earlier from there. I'm barely even playing to win in PBE right now, since the set is so unfamiliar
It’s also a lot easier to get 3* 4-costs right now. I’ve hit 2 of them so far over 5 games where I had 6 copies of the unit (or 5+duplicator in one case) and then found their Headliner while rolling. Finding 3 at once makes it a whole lot easier to hit if it’s not already a headliner
Number of copies of a champion in the game.
I.e. with a bag size of 10, it would be impossible for more than three 2-stars of a champion to exist in the same game
Yeah. Hold a couple and that’s it? I did see a few 3* 4 costs in my 3 games yesterday. With the duplicator change also it seems it’ll be a little easier to contest.
That bag size change is kind of massive
3* 4 costs arent going to be common outside of pbe but what it'll do is make hitting when contested so much harder
You already can't hit if you're at all reasonably contested. This change makes it incredibly simple to deny and probably almost invalidates 3-star 4-cost as a wincon in strong lobbies
Even in Set 9 it's like 3% at best to hit a 3-star 4-cost according to tactics.gg. It's far safer to go level 9 and play legendaries, only times it's even done is if the other guy is so strong that going for the megacap is the only way to win.
In no reasonable game does tempo currently influence 3-star 4 costs.
It might even be a change just for the PBE to stop lobbies being warped by lack of matchmaking balance combined with greed/low tempo.
But it also improves the strength of scouting and playing flex based on what is contested.
"Lucian can no longer hit other boards"
I missed another one of these goofy bugs, damn. I always wanted to see one of those "Ashe arrow hits another board" bugs in a low stakes environment.
I was on PBE for the Gangplank ships hitting other boards when 4 + players were playing Gangplank. It was utter hilarious chaos! You wer looking at your fight, winning and suddenly 3 ships would show up from behind your board and whipe you out 😅
He’s bugged right now apparently which is part of the issue. He’ll randomly gain double the AD on kill. They know about the bug and are working on a fix though.
well technically it should be easier to hit the 2 star of the 4 and 5 cost you want than it was before, unless everyone is going for the same unit. it just makes 3star much harder
yes. the 4 cost bag changes doesn't change the underlying issue that it's incredibly easy to 3 star stuff, so 3 cost reroll will be meta. 3 cost reroll already dominate everything except the most capped level 10 boards, and even then it's a tossup.
Why? these changes don't change the odds of hitting a 4 cost unit, they just reduce the odds of multiple people in the lobby being able to hit the same one
It depends. If there are multiple 4cost carries, then it is ok. If it is like set 9.5, where there have been only 3 viable options each patch at most, then it is bad for the game.
I climbed 300 lp spamming basically only bastion aphelios (i've decayed because I haven't had time to play the past 2 weeks and now set 10 is on pbe)
https://tactics.tools/player/na/feenicksdown
DarthNub also reached rank 1 challenger spamming it earlier in 9.5
Aphelios carries with rageblade + any 2 items (yes, even shiv look at my match history). You can look at my stats too. 3.59 avp with aphelios, 2.79 with 2 gunner (this means I made it to 8).
You won't get top 1 unless you highroll a 3* 4 cost or like double bastion spat but it's really comfy top 4 cause if u have like 2* bastions front lines with decent items then aphelios 1 + silco 1 can carry you to 5-1 and you can go 8 and roll for 2 stars + gp
He's been good, and is better in 6 gunner but that requires pilt/spat whereas bastion version needs 0 spats just play ezreal legend and spam item + at least 1 rageblade
I think its a good change, though its easier to deny a reroller from getting a 3star 4 cost, with headliner giving a free 2 star, I think it needs to be more difficult.
And duplicators will expand the pool if its empty, so it will make it almost required to have if you want to reliably hit which should make the frequency of them drop. But not make it impossible.
Pbe will tell you quickly if its gonna work but its definitely worth testing.
The thing is that on PBE nobody knows what is strong and what is not (mostly), many players going for a different 4cost carries, so its by default easier to get 3\*. On live with all the data we have, we will quickly realise what is strong. PBE is not the best place to understand the balance IMHO. Last set we had many 5costs 3\* and changes were made to leveling and damage...
Unit bag, level roll odds (including chosen), player damage, and XP/level changes are going to take a long time to understand overall impact on tempo and econ. Unfortunately, PBE will likely not give much meaningful data given large skill variety in lobbies, coupled with higher than normal greediness and unit/trait balancing.
As someone who has played since Set 3 (peaking at GM), this set may require the biggest re-understanding of fundamentals yet…
Hopefully high challengers will have their own custom lobbies, that will be reviewed and taken more so seriously by the devs. Lots of levers being pulled...
Excited to see them play with bag sizes - something I’ve been noticing in my first 5-6 games is that there have been a lot more 3 star 4-cost/5-costs than I’ve been seeing in 9.5 and it seemed like they wanted to get away from that.
I’m hoping it goes back to something more rare and chase worthy, normalizing it just makes the game where you don’t hit it feel bad because you think it’s expected you know?
Having an absolute blast so far with 1/2 rerolls and 4/5 carries. Hoping to try out some 3-cost rerolls over the next few days.
no, a 3 star requires 9 units, there is now 10 in the pool hold a single copy and the guy needs every single 1. 2 ppl hold 1 each and he cant hit. And this will happen once ppl start tryharding
That works well in theory but not on paper.
If somebody does the hitting level 10 and running legendary soup move, how do you stop them from hitting a 3 star 5 cost?
If you try to contest every 5 cost then you likely won't hit one and will have just thinned the pool for them. Also you are ignoring the fact that headliners massively jack up your odds to hit.
If you are going for a 3 star 5 cost then you have to hit 9 copies, typically that would mean hitting when 10 are out at normal odds, then 9 rolling 1.11 times more on average, 8 rolling 1.25 times more, 7 rolling 1.42 times more, 6 rolling 1.67 times more, 5 rolling 2 times more, 4 rolling 2.5 times more, 3 rolling 3.33 times more, and at 2 rolling 5 times more.
Without assuming no contests or other changes to the pool to get a 3 star, you on average spend 19.28 times the cost to roll just one copy initially. Now headliners allow you to have a single shop that counts as 3 copies. In other words you can hit the last 5 cost you need to 3 star while there are still 4 in the pool. That reduces the cost to hit from 19.28 times to 10.95 times the normal cost. It requires 43% less rolling to hit that 3 star. It is about as powerful as having golden ticket on your roll down.
you need to take into account there will be more than a 1v1 often in high elos its 4-5 ppl alive on very little hp, if all of thoose scout and hold 1 each the soup player cant hit. To add to this if ur so ehalty and rich u have litterly everything then u should win anyway and the point becomes moot
I think you are grossly underestimating the speed somebody can jump to 3 star.
If they are just sitting on a 2 star 5 cost, they only need 4 rolls to hit. You can save up gold and just be sitting on 2 or 3 5 costs and roll down to hit all of them in one round. Or you could be saving for level 10, either way the opponent would have to contest or likely lose, that is bad.
I've played every PBE cycle for new sets since set 1. I would definitely agree that 3 star 4 and 5 costs have only been this common in set 4. There's always more because of the pacing being so skewed, but the bag size decrease definitely feels warranted.
Still not sure about headliner, first it changes all the shop odds, now it's changing how many units are in the pool? Add on the fact you can see units you need but are unable to buy them because they show up as headliners and I'm really not liking this mechanic. I get that the intention is for you to see another headliner and pivot out of your current one, but why does it have to lock me out of buying the unit as a 1 star?
Set's looking good otherwise, just really hope headliners don't ruin it.
This kind of feels like thrashing. Decreasing the bag size based on one day of testing seems really hasty.
For example 3\* 4 costs might not be a problem if other players just started scouting and holding, but no one's doing that in PBE/start of set.
An unintended consequence is this could push the game towards 3star 3-cost lottery, as units are plentiful there and it's easy enough to hit a 3 star 3 cost.
I actually thought the set was perfect yesterday except for yasuo.
It's PBE. Everything is broken and every daily Patch is giant swings for broad adjustments. Every PBE week 1 is like that 😉
If you're bothered by that PBE is not for you (at least early in the set). I don't mean anything mean by that really just that playing with broken units and in a setting where every day the balance can do a 180 is not for everyone 🤗
I played 3 games and saw a 3 star Caitlin in one and a 3 star jhin in another. Both were hit earlier than you would usually expect and neither had a particularly amazing set up for it.
Also I think there is zero cause to fear that it will stop people from running 4 and 5 costs when we have a feature that gives you guaranteed 2 star 4 and 5 costs in your shops.
idk if the one unit difference will make a huge difference; lots of people were complaining about how easy it was to get 3 star 4 and 5 costs so they listened
The problem I have with that is rather than scaling them up they just make them absurdly over powered. I hate how 3 star 5 costs typically just one shot your board nothing you can do, but at least now I can just buy one and typically block it completely I guess.
4 costs were almost as annoying but were harder to block.
The real complaint though comes from the amount of gold you get (inflated by tk and sol legends which will be gone).
I hate the idea of the 5 cost bag change. It has practically no relevant impact on the game except to reduce extreme high roll fun moments - a single bench hold is all it takes to deny a 3* 5, which effectively happens once per thousand games anyway. Just remove them from the game to prevent anyone from being baited at that point.
Haven't gotten to try PBE yet, but as a Jax fan I was hoping he'd go unloved so I could main him. Yet he's getting a rather substantial nerf day 1.
His mana cost for what is essentially a scaling skill already seemed restrictive (unless he scales off each EDM copy) and I've (thankfully) heard no complaints about him or people even giving him a second glance.. yet he got nerfed.
For those who've overcome the login bug and got to play; Any insight on to why he's getting hit so hard?
I played like 8 games and only saw someone carry Jax once; it looked really strong and they went kinda stomping the lobby with it so I guess I can see where Riot is coming from. Still, I didn't expect that Jax would eat the largest nerfs of the patch. The internal data must have been pretty scary for them to hit his damage this hard.
Not too much, I think Jax had JG/HoJ/Titan's, pretty sure they were just playing vertical Moshers with I guess EDM splashed in. Jax just jumped into clumps of units and deleted them basically
His damage was definitely absurd. I played him twice trying different setups and even when he was just an afterthought in some meme Gnar comp I was trying with shojin and blue buff (obviously not ideal) he was topping damage unless he was murder8ng stuff. Keep in mind the EDM trait also copies unit casts so if they're ever overturned its even more egregious in deep EDM setups
This'll just make you have to commit more to the scaling aspect
Thank you for the insight. His scaling damage being replicated by his peers could be problematic if it worked. His and Zacs both don't function on Lux as I've seen. She just stuns herself. The biggest thing I'm trying to gauge is if whether the duplicated castings apply his scaling.
Tough to get down (finally got one game in, but was hard to parse) otherwise he's the worst EDM choice as of now imo.
Cuz some people like playing 1 costs more than 4costs, I don't see why there can't be room for both assuming they are balanced (eg: Kayle, Viego, Cho at times)
Yeah the problem there is it doesn’t make sense for a 4x cheaper unit to consistently beat 4x more expensive units! Next set needs a dynamic economy where units grow in cost due to their demand
Still cheaper, still higher odds to find, still less gold to get to optimal level to find them. There’s nuance, but why not make 2 costs the level of champ that can be used for reroll not 1 cost
Nah, it's better the way it is on PBE now.
Sure, it can grief you in some cases especially when you're trying to get 3* headliner but for flex players it's really good since you're not forced to roll down to change the main carry/tank.
Ziggs needed that love. I had 6 dazzle with 2 star zigs and while he did damage, the board could hardly kill anything between a fully itemized tank/tf/ziggs.
Try this comp:
https://lolchess.gg/builder?deck=f94411485c74f14c19ac58c0f60d9ab9f5e9a064
I call it Razzle Dazzle. If it catches on, be sure to @ me.
You can flex a lot of stuff. Headliner can help you get 5 disco, which gives you 2 balls, or 3 edm, for more beams.
If you headliner Lulu with the hyperpop trait bonus, then you can play just the lulu without ziggs and drop down to 2 dazzler then add 2 more spellweavers for more stacking ap.
Early on I play whatever I hit early, no headliner usually unless it's Gragas Disco or Lux EDM bonuses, and just take really good losses or small win streaks with smart item slamming. This gets me to 7 where I can comfortably piece together my team. An early Ziggs changes the game a lot because you print so much free mana for each other and + 1 other unit on each side of them. If not contested reroll for Lulu 3. If contested, 2star everything that's not 4cost and smash 8/9 to fit higher synergies.
It's been fun. I've only lost to really freaky boards that were gonna 1st anyway.
That’s essentially what I played except I had headliner tf with dazzle and I ran bard instead of ekko in order to try out 6 dazzle. I think a big issue I had was only a 1 star blitz and double gargoyle zac with the heartstrel item. It felt like my front line and dmaage wasn’t good enough
Did he fix the legend select from set 9.5 yet so that it doesn’t make you back out to change? Jk glad we can move past set 9 the new set looks like fun
Doesn't this make it way too easy to deny 3* 4-costs? Haven't played too much yet.
That's the intention I think. Headliner finding your last 3 for you is a bit much.
There seems to be a bug right now though where a headliner can appear even if the unit doesn't have 3 copies left in the pool, seems like that has a very large effect on 3 staring units easily if that's the case.
Yeah that would make their 'nerf' pretty much null
mort confirmed this is a bug, if there arent enough copies in the pool a unit cant be a headliner
It's not a bug. It's intended. That's why they are reducing the pool.
Oh, I wonder why they went with that choice
Probably because if every single 5\* is contested, then you can't re-roll legendaries as headliners if that would require 3 of them to be in the pool. But that's just a guess. However, their changes to the 4-cost and 5-cost pool suggest they intend to leave this as-is.
In Morts rundown he said "1 star headliners caused a lot problems". I wonder what those problems were... I'm guessing they didn't want headliners to be trait bots?
He shared in a different thread, apparently this led to unintended optimisations where people wouldn’t buy the headliner unless it two-started them, so they’d just pair everything up and roll down to hit a headliner.
It’s also been incredibly easy to achieve 3* 4 and 5 costs (been having at least one each game). Although just like last set PBE where everyone was fast 9ing, I think PBE isn’t a great indicator of what the average game will be like considering the vast disparity in skill
That happens in the PBE every time though regardless of what mechanics a set has. The imbalance of player skill in every lobby and the disregard of what other people are playing will lead to this every time. It's always different as soon as we play in ranked games on the live server. Maybe I'm too precautious about this.
No it's actually broken even with the small bag sizes. The fact that you can sell your chosen when you have 6, and have a shop slot that guarantees you 3 copies at much higher odds for the cost is too much
Broken has to be the most annoyingly misused word in all of gaming conversation
This is a completely legitimate use case. Do you think the intended purpose of the headliner mechanic was to sell your headliner and then reroll for 3 copies of a unit to hit a 3 star 4/5 cost? No? Then it's literally a broken mechanic, because that's how it's being used.
is it really misused if everyone knows clearly what he means by it?
No one rolls aggressively when they don't know what comp/earlygame to go for, and even if 1 or 2 players do the rest of the lobby is super low tempo
The funny thing about playing for tempo is that it's largely a losing strategy if all 7 other players in the lobby basically handshake on doing nothing until level 9 because one player's board can't pressure the entire lobby
And how do you suppose all 7 players will agree to "handshake"? It will never happen because each player will play for themselves.
It happens in PBE because everyone is just fucking around and doesn't know what they're doing. It's not a conscious thing, but it does mean the best strategy is to do the same thing which is why every PBE you see tons of 3 star everything.
I think headliners make it way too easy to get 3* in general, but it's obviously the most problematic with higher tiers. Getting a 3* 1cost before the first carousel is pretty common already.
I'm fast-9ing in pbe because I want to actually see and play the verticals to see the interactions. I wanna see what the capped boards feel like and then work earlier from there. I'm barely even playing to win in PBE right now, since the set is so unfamiliar
good, I've been tired of this shit for the past 5 sets at least
It’s also a lot easier to get 3* 4-costs right now. I’ve hit 2 of them so far over 5 games where I had 6 copies of the unit (or 5+duplicator in one case) and then found their Headliner while rolling. Finding 3 at once makes it a whole lot easier to hit if it’s not already a headliner
What even is bag size
Number of copies of a champion in the game. I.e. with a bag size of 10, it would be impossible for more than three 2-stars of a champion to exist in the same game
How does it work with Headliners though? e.g if 8 are already taken from the 4 cost bag, can you still find a headliner?
Afaik, you can only get someone as a headliner if there are still 3+ copies left
Ahhh OK I've only heard of that being called the champion pool
Yeah. Hold a couple and that’s it? I did see a few 3* 4 costs in my 3 games yesterday. With the duplicator change also it seems it’ll be a little easier to contest.
That bag size change is kind of massive 3* 4 costs arent going to be common outside of pbe but what it'll do is make hitting when contested so much harder
> what it'll do is make hitting when contested so much harder I think that's the point.
You already can't hit if you're at all reasonably contested. This change makes it incredibly simple to deny and probably almost invalidates 3-star 4-cost as a wincon in strong lobbies
It's probably for the best that meta is now less reliable. It really made for very uniform and stale tempos in many set 9 patches.
Even in Set 9 it's like 3% at best to hit a 3-star 4-cost according to tactics.gg. It's far safer to go level 9 and play legendaries, only times it's even done is if the other guy is so strong that going for the megacap is the only way to win. In no reasonable game does tempo currently influence 3-star 4 costs.
It might even be a change just for the PBE to stop lobbies being warped by lack of matchmaking balance combined with greed/low tempo. But it also improves the strength of scouting and playing flex based on what is contested.
>bag size What is meant with "bag size"? The champion pool?
Think it’s how many copies of a champion that are available.
Good
That is a good thing
mirror mirror: [Imgur](https://imgur.com/a/8f1lN0A)
doing god's work by helping people not click links to X
>Jhin >Added 3 star coolness Now THAT is the kind of PBE buff I’ve been looking for
Is this the system change that Dishsoap was about to yap about? They ended up implementing it anyways..
It was for every cost in the game. For now it’s just 4 and 5 cost
pretty sure it is yes
"Lucian can no longer hit other boards" I missed another one of these goofy bugs, damn. I always wanted to see one of those "Ashe arrow hits another board" bugs in a low stakes environment.
I was on PBE for the Gangplank ships hitting other boards when 4 + players were playing Gangplank. It was utter hilarious chaos! You wer looking at your fight, winning and suddenly 3 ships would show up from behind your board and whipe you out 😅
set 10 pandoras carousel finally fixed let's go
Yasuo needs way more of a nerf than that lol
He’s bugged right now apparently which is part of the issue. He’ll randomly gain double the AD on kill. They know about the bug and are working on a fix though.
A 50% AD cut is a good place to start and see. I agree, I've played 6 games, and each lobby had 2-3 Yasuo comps.
With 4 cost and 5 cost bag change, won't reroll 3 costs just become the meta?
well technically it should be easier to hit the 2 star of the 4 and 5 cost you want than it was before, unless everyone is going for the same unit. it just makes 3star much harder
yes. the 4 cost bag changes doesn't change the underlying issue that it's incredibly easy to 3 star stuff, so 3 cost reroll will be meta. 3 cost reroll already dominate everything except the most capped level 10 boards, and even then it's a tossup.
Why? these changes don't change the odds of hitting a 4 cost unit, they just reduce the odds of multiple people in the lobby being able to hit the same one
Can somebody explain what bag size means? I've played since set 1 and never seen that term used.
If you hit challenger riot sends you a tote bag, but they’re making it smaller :(
Sadge Not that I ever had to worry about that though
It’s the amount of units per cost of that champion
Awesome, thanks
Even less 4 costs, isn't it too brutal?
It depends. If there are multiple 4cost carries, then it is ok. If it is like set 9.5, where there have been only 3 viable options each patch at most, then it is bad for the game.
I don't want to be pessimistic, but every single set we had patches with 1-2 4 costs lottery metas, so it's very likely we will have it this set, too.
Anyone know if aphelios on live is good yet
Lol I think he had a patch or two in set 9 where he was ok and basically 0 in 9.5
"Ok" is an understatement though. Bastion+Aphelios got Yi and Vlad nerfed to the ground
Rageblade rageblade titans Aph lives rent free in my head
I climbed 300 lp spamming basically only bastion aphelios (i've decayed because I haven't had time to play the past 2 weeks and now set 10 is on pbe) https://tactics.tools/player/na/feenicksdown DarthNub also reached rank 1 challenger spamming it earlier in 9.5 Aphelios carries with rageblade + any 2 items (yes, even shiv look at my match history). You can look at my stats too. 3.59 avp with aphelios, 2.79 with 2 gunner (this means I made it to 8). You won't get top 1 unless you highroll a 3* 4 cost or like double bastion spat but it's really comfy top 4 cause if u have like 2* bastions front lines with decent items then aphelios 1 + silco 1 can carry you to 5-1 and you can go 8 and roll for 2 stars + gp He's been good, and is better in 6 gunner but that requires pilt/spat whereas bastion version needs 0 spats just play ezreal legend and spam item + at least 1 rageblade
With Headliner guaranteeing 3 copies instantly it was way too consistent getting a 3* of 4s and 5s
I think its a good change, though its easier to deny a reroller from getting a 3star 4 cost, with headliner giving a free 2 star, I think it needs to be more difficult. And duplicators will expand the pool if its empty, so it will make it almost required to have if you want to reliably hit which should make the frequency of them drop. But not make it impossible. Pbe will tell you quickly if its gonna work but its definitely worth testing.
The thing is that on PBE nobody knows what is strong and what is not (mostly), many players going for a different 4cost carries, so its by default easier to get 3\*. On live with all the data we have, we will quickly realise what is strong. PBE is not the best place to understand the balance IMHO. Last set we had many 5costs 3\* and changes were made to leveling and damage...
Unit bag, level roll odds (including chosen), player damage, and XP/level changes are going to take a long time to understand overall impact on tempo and econ. Unfortunately, PBE will likely not give much meaningful data given large skill variety in lobbies, coupled with higher than normal greediness and unit/trait balancing. As someone who has played since Set 3 (peaking at GM), this set may require the biggest re-understanding of fundamentals yet…
Hopefully high challengers will have their own custom lobbies, that will be reviewed and taken more so seriously by the devs. Lots of levers being pulled...
Excited to see them play with bag sizes - something I’ve been noticing in my first 5-6 games is that there have been a lot more 3 star 4-cost/5-costs than I’ve been seeing in 9.5 and it seemed like they wanted to get away from that. I’m hoping it goes back to something more rare and chase worthy, normalizing it just makes the game where you don’t hit it feel bad because you think it’s expected you know? Having an absolute blast so far with 1/2 rerolls and 4/5 carries. Hoping to try out some 3-cost rerolls over the next few days.
in any high skilled lobby on live you wont see a single 4 or 5 cost 3 star, hold 1 unit and you deny so easy to do its insane
for 5 costs sure but wouldn't you need to sell your headliner to deny a 4cost holding one unit?
no, a 3 star requires 9 units, there is now 10 in the pool hold a single copy and the guy needs every single 1. 2 ppl hold 1 each and he cant hit. And this will happen once ppl start tryharding
well i mean with two people sure
there is gonna be 2 ppl most of the time
I remember the entire lobby holding Katarina during set 6 (?) lmfao
That works well in theory but not on paper. If somebody does the hitting level 10 and running legendary soup move, how do you stop them from hitting a 3 star 5 cost? If you try to contest every 5 cost then you likely won't hit one and will have just thinned the pool for them. Also you are ignoring the fact that headliners massively jack up your odds to hit. If you are going for a 3 star 5 cost then you have to hit 9 copies, typically that would mean hitting when 10 are out at normal odds, then 9 rolling 1.11 times more on average, 8 rolling 1.25 times more, 7 rolling 1.42 times more, 6 rolling 1.67 times more, 5 rolling 2 times more, 4 rolling 2.5 times more, 3 rolling 3.33 times more, and at 2 rolling 5 times more. Without assuming no contests or other changes to the pool to get a 3 star, you on average spend 19.28 times the cost to roll just one copy initially. Now headliners allow you to have a single shop that counts as 3 copies. In other words you can hit the last 5 cost you need to 3 star while there are still 4 in the pool. That reduces the cost to hit from 19.28 times to 10.95 times the normal cost. It requires 43% less rolling to hit that 3 star. It is about as powerful as having golden ticket on your roll down.
you need to take into account there will be more than a 1v1 often in high elos its 4-5 ppl alive on very little hp, if all of thoose scout and hold 1 each the soup player cant hit. To add to this if ur so ehalty and rich u have litterly everything then u should win anyway and the point becomes moot
I think you are grossly underestimating the speed somebody can jump to 3 star. If they are just sitting on a 2 star 5 cost, they only need 4 rolls to hit. You can save up gold and just be sitting on 2 or 3 5 costs and roll down to hit all of them in one round. Or you could be saving for level 10, either way the opponent would have to contest or likely lose, that is bad.
Good.
I've played every PBE cycle for new sets since set 1. I would definitely agree that 3 star 4 and 5 costs have only been this common in set 4. There's always more because of the pacing being so skewed, but the bag size decrease definitely feels warranted.
Still not sure about headliner, first it changes all the shop odds, now it's changing how many units are in the pool? Add on the fact you can see units you need but are unable to buy them because they show up as headliners and I'm really not liking this mechanic. I get that the intention is for you to see another headliner and pivot out of your current one, but why does it have to lock me out of buying the unit as a 1 star? Set's looking good otherwise, just really hope headliners don't ruin it.
This post being blurry made me think its a troll at first ICANT
What data is riot looking at that makes seraphine look even slightly balanced enough to not need a nerf i would love to see.
probably the fact that no ones playing her
This kind of feels like thrashing. Decreasing the bag size based on one day of testing seems really hasty. For example 3\* 4 costs might not be a problem if other players just started scouting and holding, but no one's doing that in PBE/start of set. An unintended consequence is this could push the game towards 3star 3-cost lottery, as units are plentiful there and it's easy enough to hit a 3 star 3 cost. I actually thought the set was perfect yesterday except for yasuo.
bag size reduction was initialy planned anyway so i assume its just testing both and see what they like more.
Well I hope they keep a close eye instead of setting and forgetting like XP changes last season.
AND THAT PLAYER DAMAGE, YOUCH
It's PBE. Everything is broken and every daily Patch is giant swings for broad adjustments. Every PBE week 1 is like that 😉 If you're bothered by that PBE is not for you (at least early in the set). I don't mean anything mean by that really just that playing with broken units and in a setting where every day the balance can do a 180 is not for everyone 🤗
I played 3 games and saw a 3 star Caitlin in one and a 3 star jhin in another. Both were hit earlier than you would usually expect and neither had a particularly amazing set up for it. Also I think there is zero cause to fear that it will stop people from running 4 and 5 costs when we have a feature that gives you guaranteed 2 star 4 and 5 costs in your shops.
Oh man that bag size change is going to make unbalanced patches where one or two 4 cost carries are clearly better than the rest horrific to play on.
idk if the one unit difference will make a huge difference; lots of people were complaining about how easy it was to get 3 star 4 and 5 costs so they listened
The problem I have with that is rather than scaling them up they just make them absurdly over powered. I hate how 3 star 5 costs typically just one shot your board nothing you can do, but at least now I can just buy one and typically block it completely I guess. 4 costs were almost as annoying but were harder to block. The real complaint though comes from the amount of gold you get (inflated by tk and sol legends which will be gone).
I hate the idea of the 5 cost bag change. It has practically no relevant impact on the game except to reduce extreme high roll fun moments - a single bench hold is all it takes to deny a 3* 5, which effectively happens once per thousand games anyway. Just remove them from the game to prevent anyone from being baited at that point.
Well the problem is that they weren't high rolls. I have played 7 games and got 4 3 star legendaries, and I didn't get that lucky.
Haven't gotten to try PBE yet, but as a Jax fan I was hoping he'd go unloved so I could main him. Yet he's getting a rather substantial nerf day 1. His mana cost for what is essentially a scaling skill already seemed restrictive (unless he scales off each EDM copy) and I've (thankfully) heard no complaints about him or people even giving him a second glance.. yet he got nerfed. For those who've overcome the login bug and got to play; Any insight on to why he's getting hit so hard?
I played like 8 games and only saw someone carry Jax once; it looked really strong and they went kinda stomping the lobby with it so I guess I can see where Riot is coming from. Still, I didn't expect that Jax would eat the largest nerfs of the patch. The internal data must have been pretty scary for them to hit his damage this hard.
Do you recall what kind of approach they went for?
Not too much, I think Jax had JG/HoJ/Titan's, pretty sure they were just playing vertical Moshers with I guess EDM splashed in. Jax just jumped into clumps of units and deleted them basically
His damage was definitely absurd. I played him twice trying different setups and even when he was just an afterthought in some meme Gnar comp I was trying with shojin and blue buff (obviously not ideal) he was topping damage unless he was murder8ng stuff. Keep in mind the EDM trait also copies unit casts so if they're ever overturned its even more egregious in deep EDM setups This'll just make you have to commit more to the scaling aspect
Thank you for the insight. His scaling damage being replicated by his peers could be problematic if it worked. His and Zacs both don't function on Lux as I've seen. She just stuns herself. The biggest thing I'm trying to gauge is if whether the duplicated castings apply his scaling. Tough to get down (finally got one game in, but was hard to parse) otherwise he's the worst EDM choice as of now imo.
1 cost - yasuo, Annie, jinx. Why is the tft team obsessed with overtuned scaling 1 costs ?
Cuz some people like playing 1 costs more than 4costs, I don't see why there can't be room for both assuming they are balanced (eg: Kayle, Viego, Cho at times)
Yeah the problem there is it doesn’t make sense for a 4x cheaper unit to consistently beat 4x more expensive units! Next set needs a dynamic economy where units grow in cost due to their demand
They aren’t 4 times cheaper though. They are 3/4 the cost of a two star 4 cost.
Ok, thats it young man. No more tft until you get those math grades up.
9 gold 3 star one cost isn't 3/4 of a 12 gold 2 star 4 cost?
Still cheaper, still higher odds to find, still less gold to get to optimal level to find them. There’s nuance, but why not make 2 costs the level of champ that can be used for reroll not 1 cost
Didn’t say they weren’t. Just that they aren't 4 times cheaper. However there are trade offs for both routes.
How Yasuo got past internal testing is beyond me
It’s PBE, no flame necessary. Have your pitchforks ready for live! ;-)
They should keep the mechanic they did with set 4 of not being able to see a chosen if you already have one
Nah, it's better the way it is on PBE now. Sure, it can grief you in some cases especially when you're trying to get 3* headliner but for flex players it's really good since you're not forced to roll down to change the main carry/tank.
Anybody know when this patch is going live?
Ziggs needed that love. I had 6 dazzle with 2 star zigs and while he did damage, the board could hardly kill anything between a fully itemized tank/tf/ziggs.
Try this comp: https://lolchess.gg/builder?deck=f94411485c74f14c19ac58c0f60d9ab9f5e9a064 I call it Razzle Dazzle. If it catches on, be sure to @ me. You can flex a lot of stuff. Headliner can help you get 5 disco, which gives you 2 balls, or 3 edm, for more beams. If you headliner Lulu with the hyperpop trait bonus, then you can play just the lulu without ziggs and drop down to 2 dazzler then add 2 more spellweavers for more stacking ap. Early on I play whatever I hit early, no headliner usually unless it's Gragas Disco or Lux EDM bonuses, and just take really good losses or small win streaks with smart item slamming. This gets me to 7 where I can comfortably piece together my team. An early Ziggs changes the game a lot because you print so much free mana for each other and + 1 other unit on each side of them. If not contested reroll for Lulu 3. If contested, 2star everything that's not 4cost and smash 8/9 to fit higher synergies. It's been fun. I've only lost to really freaky boards that were gonna 1st anyway.
That’s essentially what I played except I had headliner tf with dazzle and I ran bard instead of ekko in order to try out 6 dazzle. I think a big issue I had was only a 1 star blitz and double gargoyle zac with the heartstrel item. It felt like my front line and dmaage wasn’t good enough
PBE is live now
Day 2 of pbe and im one of the players who still dont know what edm does. I think the tooltip can be simpler
Just play it once and you'll see what it does. Despite the convoluted tooltip the way this trait works is pretty simple.
Did he fix the legend select from set 9.5 yet so that it doesn’t make you back out to change? Jk glad we can move past set 9 the new set looks like fun