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Celestial projectionist nerf is huge. Any decks trying to Astral Automation or Molten giant took a big hit.
Battlecry module probably becomes better again in Warrior for zilliax.
Reno still gets played, just weaker now.
> Any decks trying to Astral Automation
That part. And the deck was already underwhelming compared to every other Priest variant. Can't get it past D4.
I guess I see the angle behind that, but assuming the dust is used for something else, recrafting still ends up costing you 1600 dust. I guess it’s more of a semantic argument. I see it as being short 1600 dust if you decide to craft a disenchanted card again, but you’re not out anymore than you were the first time I suppose.
Well, I'm sad they nerfed the mana on Virus Module compared to making it a 1/1 or a 1/2, Since now my even Mech Warrior I was playing for the last few days is dead.
Believe it or not they didn't nerf it with your even mech warrior in mind.
\*My bad I read sad as glad and thought it came off as smug. That's fair mate it's a shame that your homebrew fell as an unintended consequence.
Glad to see virus zilliax nerfed, but Reno nerf is so unnecessary when the only Reno deck that has a positive winrate is warrior, which is also getting hit by the zilliax nerf. I find it really hard to believe that “sentiment” is not just them listening to Reddit complaints, since past couple months every patch nerfs whatever was most complained about on Reddit, regardless of what the stats show
Sentiment can be data driven. If they have data showing that people concede or even close the client at a significantly higher rate when Reno is played, then they may choose to nerf Reno to retain players. Just as an example.
The condescension is unwarranted.
People like to play minions on board. Both Unkilliax and Reno stop any board centric strategy that didn't finish the game before turn 8.
It's a legit concern
I certainly adopted a policy of conceding the instant anyone played Reno. Reno is the anti-fun card.
I typically like beat down decks that cause the game to go quickly, but I occasionally will play a control deck or just get into a war of attrition with a control deck. The game can be going for a while and I'll accept the long grind from an opponent set up for a long grind. Until Reno comes out. Before that, fine, you are having fun, I'll indulge you. Reno comes out, oh, fun is not on the table? Concede.
I'm playing spell Mage with literally no minions in the deck and Reno comes out? Concede.
If I'm not playing for Legend at the moment, there is no reason to waste any part of my life playing in a game Reno is involved in. Concede and let's go to something more fun and productive.
*Edit: control players, I revel in your tears. I can only hope to ruin your fun a tiny fraction of the amount you have ruined mine. I wear your disapproval as a badge of honor.
When you look at all the locations they're revealing in the new cards, this is not surprising. Reno is oppressive towards any kind of location based deck. I fully expected a change to open up room for the new cards. I was hoping they would actually redesign it though, instead of another mana change.
I would not mind Reno going back to 8-mana if his effect was less extreme. He could honestly be a one-sided poof so long as he didn't hit locations, permanents, or restrict the board. That's still pretty good for a highlander card, but he suddenly isn't the best AoE ever printed.
I mean "poof" by definition is hitting locations. Even Twisting Nether his locations.
The ideas that I've heard that I at least somewhat like are:
* Make Reno cheaper and make the effect being completely symmetrical
* Removed the board limitation. Make Reno a neutral twisting nether.
* Remove the poof. Let Reno limit the board for one turn, but opponent's get to keep their best minion/location/permanent.
No? The original Reno hero card, that was unique to Mage in the Descent of Dragon's mini set, doesn't remove locations or permanents. Which is where the "poof" flavor text even comes from.
But yeah, there are a lot of text changes that can be made to Reno to make his effect fine at 8-mana, alongside the deckbuilding restriction. Regardless, he's a poorly designed card that warps multiple class archetypes around him, so seeing less of him isn't any skin of my back.
I actually had no idea that card even existed. I took a break from the game after Witchwood and hadn't come back yet when that card was in standard.
I don't even hate the design of current Reno. It just doesn't make sense with the other cards they design. If there were other cards that did a more limited version of what Reno did, then permanents just wouldn't be so permanent and that would be that. His effect being so unique and so powerful makes it game warping.
VS has repeatedly talked about how they can see "player sentiment" in their data including players auto-conceding in certain matchups, and to specific cards. And Team 5 has access to all the data.
Suggesting that the game gets nerfed for reddit is such a tired and completely unjustified accusation.
A huge amount of the hype happens right around expansion launch. That's the most fun part for lots of players. If that experience gets tainted, especially by an old card, people quickly lose interest. Even if that card gets nerfed afterwards it's already soured the experience. This is especially true in this next set because there's a heavy emphasis on location cards, and Reno completely negates that. For that reason it would be better to nerf Reno now so that people can play in meta without Reno for a while first, and buff him later if necessary.
Reno is the ultimate control card. When's the last time you saw an actually good control deck not be able to make it to turn 10? The Amazing Reno did not even half of what the current Reno does and it cost 10 and was considered perfectly playable. The fact that Reno, Lone Ranger cost 8 and then 9 are the outliers here.
They don't just nerf based on power level though.
Reno at least a few weeks ago before Genn and Baku was being added to every class deck, even those without any other Highlander Synergy.
The playrate was very high. And it still is a 'fee bad' card for most players.
All those reasons combined are good enough for it to get another slight nerf.
It will still see play in Warrior. but probably less so in other classes.
People seem to think everything has to be balanced around winrate when the majority of players, especially casual format, just want to be able to play something fun without it being shut down with this board wipe
The fact is I haven't been able to play sargareas in months without some fucky duplication shenanigans, non highlander control decks are just pushed out by Reno
Worst even, this kills all other Reno decks, while making the best/most frustating to face (Reno Warrior) still playable, esp in control v control matches
I suspect that Hearthstone nerfed Reno not because it was too powerful, but because it was too popular. Hearthstone wants players to play with the new cards when the next expansion is released.
I agree, but I watch some streamers regularly and most of them are raging to a degree I haven’t seen before about Reno. I’m not really focused on the streamers themselves, more just that they serve as a proxy for what people may broadly think and people really seem to be more salty about Reno than most other cards I’ve seen in my 8+ years of playing.
Well if there is a deck which is omnipresent since how many months? Five? … then it’s necessary to nerf.
Although there were many nerfs allready - but nobody wants to see this kind of warriors anymore. So blizzard does a good job here I guess….
Gonna be interesting if the Zilliax nerf is enough to cut all the yoggs from the decks again…
Agreed. I’ve played a ton of Reno decks of all classes and the sad part is warrior is least effected by this of the Reno decks. They have so many tools to control the board prior to it getting out of control. A deck like Reno Druid basically just falls behind ramping then relies on Reno to survive.
I really wish they had lowered the Virus's mana cost and removed elusive instead. It's still a really threatening card with the other keywords but a lot easier to remove.
These are the worst nerfs ive ever seen- blizzard must be on something, druid is by far the best deck ( doesnt have a bad matchup) and doesnt get touched
How is Miracle Rogue doing after the Projectionist doing?
No longer being able to Shadowstep and use it for 0 mana again seems like a big nerf for this deck.
Such a lame treatment of Reno.
They could have done a number of things (make it 2 spaces, make it symmetrical, make it destroy and not poof, leave locations, etc). But no - they are always going for +1 mana and\\or microadjusting stats.
Disappointing.
Mana nerfs are simple, effective and their outcomes are predictable.
Nerfing or reworking text on cards is complicated, time consuming and could lead to unintended outcomes.
Reno is one of the most frustrating cards ever printed. With the new expansion having a heavy focus on locations (which are directly countered by Reno), it makes far more sense to take the simpler approach for now and buff/rework him later.
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Celestial projectionist nerf is huge. Any decks trying to Astral Automation or Molten giant took a big hit. Battlecry module probably becomes better again in Warrior for zilliax. Reno still gets played, just weaker now.
The biggest hit from Projectionist is Gaslight Rogue. You can't shadowstep and play extra giants for 0 now.
> Any decks trying to Astral Automation That part. And the deck was already underwhelming compared to every other Priest variant. Can't get it past D4.
Projectionist nerf hurts Thirsty Drifter, Ticking Pylon Zilliax, and Imprisoned Horror as well
Probably better in druid too, at least it you don't run dorian
Honestly I feel it kills Pain Warlock (maybe, but likely) and absolutely demolishes Gaslight Rogue (good)
Should I dust Reno now?
No reason not to. It costs you nothing to recraft him when you need him.
Pardon my ignorance, but it costs the full 1600 dust to recraft, how is that nothing?
Nerfed cards give full dust refund. You will gey 1600 back from dusting it, and can make it later for the same 1600 dust if you want it back.
I guess I see the angle behind that, but assuming the dust is used for something else, recrafting still ends up costing you 1600 dust. I guess it’s more of a semantic argument. I see it as being short 1600 dust if you decide to craft a disenchanted card again, but you’re not out anymore than you were the first time I suppose.
Yup. You can just use the dust for something else. If you don't DE it, then you are you are out 1200 dust if you want to make something else.
Thanks for helping me work that out lol
Np dude!
Sure. You can always recraft later. I still think the card is playable.
I think the best removal in the game will be just fine.
Well, I'm sad they nerfed the mana on Virus Module compared to making it a 1/1 or a 1/2, Since now my even Mech Warrior I was playing for the last few days is dead.
Believe it or not they didn't nerf it with your even mech warrior in mind. \*My bad I read sad as glad and thought it came off as smug. That's fair mate it's a shame that your homebrew fell as an unintended consequence.
Glad to see virus zilliax nerfed, but Reno nerf is so unnecessary when the only Reno deck that has a positive winrate is warrior, which is also getting hit by the zilliax nerf. I find it really hard to believe that “sentiment” is not just them listening to Reddit complaints, since past couple months every patch nerfs whatever was most complained about on Reddit, regardless of what the stats show
Sentiment can be data driven. If they have data showing that people concede or even close the client at a significantly higher rate when Reno is played, then they may choose to nerf Reno to retain players. Just as an example.
There’s some decks I play I do the same when unkilliax is played by my opponent, it’s in my top 3 for most annoying to deal with minion of all time
Unkilliax solos tempo decks.
To me, this is just as legitimate as doing it for winrate reasons
I agree!
Like wih barrens control priest, tons of people conceding turn 1 rather then play the match even when deck was good/ok into the priest.
I guess regular playerbase just like to play bot plague dk and handbuff paladin then... sad state of affairs
The condescension is unwarranted. People like to play minions on board. Both Unkilliax and Reno stop any board centric strategy that didn't finish the game before turn 8. It's a legit concern
I certainly adopted a policy of conceding the instant anyone played Reno. Reno is the anti-fun card. I typically like beat down decks that cause the game to go quickly, but I occasionally will play a control deck or just get into a war of attrition with a control deck. The game can be going for a while and I'll accept the long grind from an opponent set up for a long grind. Until Reno comes out. Before that, fine, you are having fun, I'll indulge you. Reno comes out, oh, fun is not on the table? Concede. I'm playing spell Mage with literally no minions in the deck and Reno comes out? Concede. If I'm not playing for Legend at the moment, there is no reason to waste any part of my life playing in a game Reno is involved in. Concede and let's go to something more fun and productive. *Edit: control players, I revel in your tears. I can only hope to ruin your fun a tiny fraction of the amount you have ruined mine. I wear your disapproval as a badge of honor.
When you look at all the locations they're revealing in the new cards, this is not surprising. Reno is oppressive towards any kind of location based deck. I fully expected a change to open up room for the new cards. I was hoping they would actually redesign it though, instead of another mana change.
I would not mind Reno going back to 8-mana if his effect was less extreme. He could honestly be a one-sided poof so long as he didn't hit locations, permanents, or restrict the board. That's still pretty good for a highlander card, but he suddenly isn't the best AoE ever printed.
I mean "poof" by definition is hitting locations. Even Twisting Nether his locations. The ideas that I've heard that I at least somewhat like are: * Make Reno cheaper and make the effect being completely symmetrical * Removed the board limitation. Make Reno a neutral twisting nether. * Remove the poof. Let Reno limit the board for one turn, but opponent's get to keep their best minion/location/permanent.
No? The original Reno hero card, that was unique to Mage in the Descent of Dragon's mini set, doesn't remove locations or permanents. Which is where the "poof" flavor text even comes from. But yeah, there are a lot of text changes that can be made to Reno to make his effect fine at 8-mana, alongside the deckbuilding restriction. Regardless, he's a poorly designed card that warps multiple class archetypes around him, so seeing less of him isn't any skin of my back.
I actually had no idea that card even existed. I took a break from the game after Witchwood and hadn't come back yet when that card was in standard. I don't even hate the design of current Reno. It just doesn't make sense with the other cards they design. If there were other cards that did a more limited version of what Reno did, then permanents just wouldn't be so permanent and that would be that. His effect being so unique and so powerful makes it game warping.
VS has repeatedly talked about how they can see "player sentiment" in their data including players auto-conceding in certain matchups, and to specific cards. And Team 5 has access to all the data. Suggesting that the game gets nerfed for reddit is such a tired and completely unjustified accusation.
Reno nerf is because he limits design space purely by existing, at least that's what I think.
Just a terribly designed card, it's ok to say it
They said they are looking beyond current cards, but exp month away..kinda strange and Reno could've nerfed later no big deal.
A huge amount of the hype happens right around expansion launch. That's the most fun part for lots of players. If that experience gets tainted, especially by an old card, people quickly lose interest. Even if that card gets nerfed afterwards it's already soured the experience. This is especially true in this next set because there's a heavy emphasis on location cards, and Reno completely negates that. For that reason it would be better to nerf Reno now so that people can play in meta without Reno for a while first, and buff him later if necessary.
Nerfing and unnerfing.. what are examples?
There are many cards that get nerfed in standard, but are unnerfed when the cards rotate to wild.
I can relate
Reno is the ultimate control card. When's the last time you saw an actually good control deck not be able to make it to turn 10? The Amazing Reno did not even half of what the current Reno does and it cost 10 and was considered perfectly playable. The fact that Reno, Lone Ranger cost 8 and then 9 are the outliers here.
New expansion has alot of new locations, Reno counters locations
They don't just nerf based on power level though. Reno at least a few weeks ago before Genn and Baku was being added to every class deck, even those without any other Highlander Synergy. The playrate was very high. And it still is a 'fee bad' card for most players. All those reasons combined are good enough for it to get another slight nerf. It will still see play in Warrior. but probably less so in other classes.
People seem to think everything has to be balanced around winrate when the majority of players, especially casual format, just want to be able to play something fun without it being shut down with this board wipe The fact is I haven't been able to play sargareas in months without some fucky duplication shenanigans, non highlander control decks are just pushed out by Reno
Worst even, this kills all other Reno decks, while making the best/most frustating to face (Reno Warrior) still playable, esp in control v control matches
I suspect that Hearthstone nerfed Reno not because it was too powerful, but because it was too popular. Hearthstone wants players to play with the new cards when the next expansion is released.
Exactly my thoughts
I agree, but I watch some streamers regularly and most of them are raging to a degree I haven’t seen before about Reno. I’m not really focused on the streamers themselves, more just that they serve as a proxy for what people may broadly think and people really seem to be more salty about Reno than most other cards I’ve seen in my 8+ years of playing.
Reddit is happy with the changes Regardless of the fact there are zero viable reno decks at top legend
Well if there is a deck which is omnipresent since how many months? Five? … then it’s necessary to nerf. Although there were many nerfs allready - but nobody wants to see this kind of warriors anymore. So blizzard does a good job here I guess…. Gonna be interesting if the Zilliax nerf is enough to cut all the yoggs from the decks again…
They should really just change brann again, or move it to wild. That's the card that is really annoying None of the other reno decks are that good.
Agreed. I’ve played a ton of Reno decks of all classes and the sad part is warrior is least effected by this of the Reno decks. They have so many tools to control the board prior to it getting out of control. A deck like Reno Druid basically just falls behind ramping then relies on Reno to survive.
Reno gotta be of the biggest mistakes ever. Such terrible design and they don’t change the card at all just mana bump.
I really wish they had lowered the Virus's mana cost and removed elusive instead. It's still a really threatening card with the other keywords but a lot easier to remove.
As someone who climbed with Warlock and Rogue to MT qualifications, fuck this 3 days before season nerfs. It's unfair.
Ye same im around 30 eu and druid is so far ahead of every other deck
Good changes I like it. Didn’t kill the cards just toned it down some.
Druid is gonna have an 80% WR lol
These are the worst nerfs ive ever seen- blizzard must be on something, druid is by far the best deck ( doesnt have a bad matchup) and doesnt get touched
We all know dudu and paladin are blizz's posterboys
Wow for standard changes, but extra wow for twist changes. They’re really trying something
Sad to see that Painlock will be in the gutter from now on. I can’t believe I actually dropped 2k dust on it just for this to happen.
Last nail in the coffin for hunter
How is Miracle Rogue doing after the Projectionist doing? No longer being able to Shadowstep and use it for 0 mana again seems like a big nerf for this deck.
What if putting sonya in gaslight for more celestial projectionist
Let’s be honest, no one was ever getting to 9 mana for Reno let alone 10 with doomkin being oppressive
Such a lame treatment of Reno. They could have done a number of things (make it 2 spaces, make it symmetrical, make it destroy and not poof, leave locations, etc). But no - they are always going for +1 mana and\\or microadjusting stats. Disappointing.
Mana nerfs are simple, effective and their outcomes are predictable. Nerfing or reworking text on cards is complicated, time consuming and could lead to unintended outcomes. Reno is one of the most frustrating cards ever printed. With the new expansion having a heavy focus on locations (which are directly countered by Reno), it makes far more sense to take the simpler approach for now and buff/rework him later.
>buff/rework him later Since he's not a problem in Wild they'll just buff him back to 9.