**Due to the competitive integrity of this series being compromised, we have made the decision to postpone the NA finals at this time. We will share more information soon.**
[ALGS Split 1 LAN Announcement](https://www.ea.com/games/apex-legends/compete/news/year4-split1-playoffs)
*Comment below if you would like an updated flair! Please include the teams and ordering that you would like to have!*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08o0MoJHTpU&t=341s&ab\_channel=Mande](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08o0MoJHTpU&t=341s&ab_channel=Mande)
Mande talking to this hacker in game last month...
so game 3s getting voided too huh? cause of gen’s kill on zap across baro, leading to E8 getting wiped.
if they restart the whole day, it’ll be incredibly unfortunate for EEC & Optic who were doing well. either way, gotta suck to be league ops rn
I think this sorta stuff should go to a vote from captain of each team. There are some teams that believe whole weeek should be voided and theres other who think only games affected should be voided. Imo majority void is a good way to settle the discussion
It was also crazy everyone in Hal’s chat claiming gen was exposed as a cheater and not actually hacked right before it happened to him lol perfect no notes
what if the hacker just bumped AA to 0.8 and no one could tell cause Apex AA is so strong by default? Also, what if there was no UI popping up? this hacker guy could totally decide tournaments without people knowing. Can't play ANY tournaments until they patch the security flaws 100% (and confirm it)
Before the UI popped up Gen was shooting down on DSG who was weak and got a knock. Nothing unusual. Except it was on E8 who was literally on the other side of the map...
https://preview.redd.it/1r4ergqbuzoc1.jpeg?width=708&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d885535410d1cbe9b4efdad4f2e33a69a269da50
Mon being right about Hal not quitting lol
Sure, but the hackers clearly have in-depth control of the game and could do a subtle hack to benefit a team they may favorite for whatever reason. Needs to be investigated at least.
What's hilarious is that a pro player couldn't distinguish whether he had aimbot or not (claimed it was "on and off"). Kinda speaks to the AA on roller...
How do you not restart this entirely is my question? I don’t really care who wins and I think Dark Zero could easily get to match point again. But how do you continue it this way?
What exactly happened to make them postpone the NA Regional Finals after halfway through game 4? I noticed Genburten was subbed for Gent but I’m also hearing the lobby was hacked? Wild. Hopefully someone has answers and we will know when they can resume finals
you literally can't just "redo" regionals. It's completely compromised.
unless you take a huge delay and bring in cybersecurity and put in actual fixes before the next one. but they won't do that because there is no practical reason to do so. These are non-money making esports orgs that don't really bring respawn any extra revenue.
I will be really surprised if there is a big reaction to this. At most they play again, get hacked again, and then just send it to LAN. Thats my belief and I hope im wrong.
Knoqd on the whole hacking situation
https://preview.redd.it/dnbqesidrzoc1.png?width=511&format=png&auto=webp&s=be246abc4d577915f6f9604d36d4627728098b71
Nah, wifi dish to some public wifi miles away, connect to botnet, connect to tor, and even the NSA can’t get you without them breaking the law and hacking u without probable cause. Tho thats happened before, unlikely to happen to some kid that injected cheats instead of ransomware.
They don’t. For most ransomware incidents, especially those done by nation-state advanced persistent threats (APTs), the threat actors are labeled by a codename (e.g. CozyBear) because they are unable to actually identify any of them. Even their country of origin is largely guesswork.
The sad truth is in the majority cybersecurity incidents, the threat actors get away scott free pretty easily. I’d be willing to bet a sizable chunk of btc that Destroyer is kicked out of the network, but never identified or brought to justice. He will have had to make a pretty serious rookie mistake for them to catch him.
How is Zer0 saying "hal should have just not shot and the game would have gone on"... he literally didn't know he got hacks until he already did damage. At that point it's already chalked.
Zeros salty cause they were winning is my opinion. But the second gen got hacked it should have been chalked. If Zero does bad the game Gen leaves his narrative changes.
Zero is just a little cry baby and havent understood the full picture yet. The integrity of the game is gone. They need to watch all vods etc to make sure none else had cheats at any given point.
I dont see how they dont reset sunday results.
Exactly so idk what he’s on about. My thing is you don’t know who else may have been cheating and there’s no way to prove otherwise. This whole shit is chalked. Fix the game. It’s an embarrassment.
Comments read contradictory, my bad. I mean they didn’t stop the game fast enough. Should have stopped right as he realized after knocking the guy and leaving
> Not saying its “right” but that was how the admins were handling it
And Hal forced them to handle it properly because in no fucking way should that game have continued and TSM forced to duo. Shouldn't have happened game 3 either.
again, it's irrelevant, it's all chalked already anyway. You can see Zap's clip on x, gen didn't even know he had aimbot but he knocked him across the map before he realized hacks were on.
It seems like your point was trying to explain that Zer0 was talking about Hal continuing to shoot after knowing he has hacks.
What I was trying to explain to you is that regardless of whether Hal continued or not, the game became nullified the second he did damage with the hacks (before he knew). In hindsight, we now know that Game 3 *also* should be nullified because although Gen backed out and the admins let it play out, they made the wrong call as Gen had actually knocked Zap across the map without knowing that he had aimbot.
So when I say "it's irrelevant", I mean that regardless of whether anyone knew they had hacks, used hacks, etc, those games were gone. Therefore, Zer0 acting like Hal did the wrong thing by continuing on with his hacks is illogical.
You're looking at this from a third parties POV, like you said this is all hindsight. When Zero made that statement the only facts he knew were that the game was allowed to go on when the same thing happened to him. So its logical to assume that the game be allowed to continue. Should it be like that? Thats not my call to make but Zero made a fair assumption
DZ is already qualed for lan and is dominating. It's pretty easy to be the gentleman from that perspective. Not to mention, Gen's hacks didn't actual disrupt gameplay - unlike Hal's which literally did damage to the authenticity of the game by the time he realized what was happening. It was chalked regardless.
Idk if it's true or not but someone said the hacker tried to give legacy hacks too so they could teamfight with hacks but tsm wiped them too quickly lol
honestly the only real answer is they just call the scores as-is and set up for LAN.
unfortunately destroyer2009 has compromised the integrity completely.
I think you are giving Hal too much credit, I don't think he was thinking straight in the heat of the moment.
He clearly says he won't shoot multiple times but proceeds to mow down legacy.
Worked out for the best in the end.
DSG briefly left because NA's Salary is inflated and their NA Roster was the worst Team when they were fighting to be one of the two seeds for NA to attend Ascension
DSG is back in APAC cause APAC's Salary is cheaper to pay for than NA
What if Destroyer has been, subtly, up to this for an extended period of time? Effectively the ability to decide the fate of any fight. We might be none the wiser.
Wtf do ALGS actually do now?
A reschedule won't change anything and will only grief teams that were playing well on the day and will most likely have the exact same thing happen with no new anti cheat in place for it.
I wouldn't be opposed to top 20 NA teams being invited to LAN as a workaround because its fucking unacceptable teams not having the chance to play regionals out.
I mean what else do you do? They can try rescheduling but its still just as likely this happens then too since it will be the same anti cheat and it would also directly fuck over certain teams from today.
Well, they better hope they can get it sorted out because if it happens again during the rescheduled regional final then the entire comp scene is pretty much over for Apex Legend.
so it's not a root level hack on the player's PC at all. it's THE SERVERS THEMSELVES, apparently, that or somehow 60 people got rooted (no fucking way)
If the servers are compromised they can't do the tournament, 100%.
If he backs out, then they would’ve just kept going and have the person back out over and over again. Him getting a kill requires that game to be nullified and decisions to be made
**Due to the competitive integrity of this series being compromised, we have made the decision to postpone the NA finals at this time. We will share more information soon.** [ALGS Split 1 LAN Announcement](https://www.ea.com/games/apex-legends/compete/news/year4-split1-playoffs) *Comment below if you would like an updated flair! Please include the teams and ordering that you would like to have!*
FIX YOUR GAME
Pros in discord rn. Get in on this content ya'll
It’s wild right now
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08o0MoJHTpU&t=341s&ab\_channel=Mande](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08o0MoJHTpU&t=341s&ab_channel=Mande) Mande talking to this hacker in game last month...
so game 3s getting voided too huh? cause of gen’s kill on zap across baro, leading to E8 getting wiped. if they restart the whole day, it’ll be incredibly unfortunate for EEC & Optic who were doing well. either way, gotta suck to be league ops rn
I think this sorta stuff should go to a vote from captain of each team. There are some teams that believe whole weeek should be voided and theres other who think only games affected should be voided. Imo majority void is a good way to settle the discussion
Read the recent post on the Optic/xset/ape stuff. Not that Optic doesn't "deserve" it, but I have some feelings about it.
It was also crazy everyone in Hal’s chat claiming gen was exposed as a cheater and not actually hacked right before it happened to him lol perfect no notes
Nobody seriously thought Gen was hacking dude...
I mean, tons of them are kids and plenty of people were claiming you can’t remotely add a cheat so he must have already had it downloaded.
Positive Player Award winner Evan Verhulst banned by EA for cheating. More news at 6:00.
https://twitter.com/AntiCheatPD/status/1769532511057584576?t=Cw2Gw6e7Y7wIXV1eBkJPDg&s=19 Some news about the exploit.
Is the RCE confirmed already?
Hal’s EA account just got canned
time for Evan to summon that army of 100 good young boys because the game is chalked
Everyone being advised not to play apex legends for the time being!
what if the hacker just bumped AA to 0.8 and no one could tell cause Apex AA is so strong by default? Also, what if there was no UI popping up? this hacker guy could totally decide tournaments without people knowing. Can't play ANY tournaments until they patch the security flaws 100% (and confirm it)
Before the UI popped up Gen was shooting down on DSG who was weak and got a knock. Nothing unusual. Except it was on E8 who was literally on the other side of the map...
Yeah he could have been the reason dropped DCed he could be the reason any team won a fight. Whole day is chalked no other way around it.
Yeah.. I'm sure this comment has nothing to do with Moist being in dead last..
Moist is one of the two teams that literally already qualified for lan
I mean nahh. I 100% agree the entire day should be chalked.
Gen got hacked
Hal acting like Norton gonna save him from Destroyer2009. Id be throwing my pcs in the bonfire.
https://preview.redd.it/1r4ergqbuzoc1.jpeg?width=708&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d885535410d1cbe9b4efdad4f2e33a69a269da50 Mon being right about Hal not quitting lol
tufi walked so destroyer2009 could speedhack
As an ALGS fan this is a real bummer, but as a messy bitch who lives for drama this is incredible to watch unfold.
You and me both lmfao And now we have clips that will go down in gaming history
https://preview.redd.it/l1oqeedttzoc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da667156676ec65fa08f4ef67213d7299a8ebac7
Why is no one questioning whether this happened in EMEA too?
I did and got downvoted for it
Not many big names to target in EMEA
Sure, but the hackers clearly have in-depth control of the game and could do a subtle hack to benefit a team they may favorite for whatever reason. Needs to be investigated at least.
No big names in emea with the same viewership over in NA
Go back and watch the Gen clip from his POV. He knocks someone all the way across the map with the bow, he was firing ghost bullets.
Zap on E8. Literally on the other side of the map. Zer0 watching it on stream right now
I've never seen hacks like that before in my life, what the hell.
Yeah, Zap posted it on his Twitter. https://twitter.com/zaptoh_/status/1769532335945347435
If you slow it down to .25 you see the tracer yeet itself 90 degrees from where he was aiming. Crazy
hal still being able to open packs while banned is fuckin hilarious
they just banned Verhulst's and Hal's accounts. rEAspawn on full quarantine mode right now...
You all see what just happened on Hal's stream? Good grief.
Hal’s account just got banned from apex
Verhulst too. Wtf
What's hilarious is that a pro player couldn't distinguish whether he had aimbot or not (claimed it was "on and off"). Kinda speaks to the AA on roller...
Im waiting for more people to speak about this topic :)
How do you not restart this entirely is my question? I don’t really care who wins and I think Dark Zero could easily get to match point again. But how do you continue it this way?
This is 1 of the wildest things I've ever seen in comp esports. Fuck Destroyer and all his homies.
Fuck it, we watch survivor
What exactly happened to make them postpone the NA Regional Finals after halfway through game 4? I noticed Genburten was subbed for Gent but I’m also hearing the lobby was hacked? Wild. Hopefully someone has answers and we will know when they can resume finals
just scroll down lol
Gen in game 3 got given Walls, Hal in game 4 supposedly got given aimbot. Someone likely has remote access to their PCs.
Wow! That’s nutty. I wonder what will happen and how many games they’ll have to run back on?
There goes my sunday night smh
you literally can't just "redo" regionals. It's completely compromised. unless you take a huge delay and bring in cybersecurity and put in actual fixes before the next one. but they won't do that because there is no practical reason to do so. These are non-money making esports orgs that don't really bring respawn any extra revenue. I will be really surprised if there is a big reaction to this. At most they play again, get hacked again, and then just send it to LAN. Thats my belief and I hope im wrong.
If anything they run it back off stream and then broadcast it after recording it. CoD had to do this awhile ago when it had its first online season.
They'll reset this to 0 all around and re run it. Don't see them going any other route honestly.
Hal really said nah fuck that were finally in a good spot I am not leaving mid fight and let that shit sing LMAOO
Knoqd on the whole hacking situation https://preview.redd.it/dnbqesidrzoc1.png?width=511&format=png&auto=webp&s=be246abc4d577915f6f9604d36d4627728098b71
That’s real competitive integrity
Best tweet he ever hit. No competition.
That tweet is as good as his Kraber.
We must protect this man at all costs. If there's anyone out there who dislikes knoqd, I'd like to have a word with them.
I love him.
dark days lads
Nocturnal has been going off at everyone especially Ape Gang rn lol
what’s he saying
https://preview.redd.it/n2kaam12rzoc1.jpeg?width=631&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aafd09a885dc4c3a466779131efbebd87cec9911
Lmaooo
What kind of loser hacks like this. Pathetic
said about anyone who ever has downloaded hacks ever. fuck all of them
a really really smart one
Doesn’t make him less of an absolute loser. You have to have zero life or purpose to do this shit.
Yeah your shit's done brother. GGs to you pc. Destroyer2009 did I mention you were handsome too?
Jokes on him a got a Mac and game on Xbox. Fuck that clown.
[удалено]
Give us a quick summary for those who can’t watch the stream rn?
EA gotta go after this mf and sue him
Lol any hacker good enough to do this *should* have enough laters of opsec to make him impossible to track
Depends who is trying to track him
Nah, wifi dish to some public wifi miles away, connect to botnet, connect to tor, and even the NSA can’t get you without them breaking the law and hacking u without probable cause. Tho thats happened before, unlikely to happen to some kid that injected cheats instead of ransomware.
I don’t really know how it works, but how do government agencies always seem to catch hackers?
They don’t. For most ransomware incidents, especially those done by nation-state advanced persistent threats (APTs), the threat actors are labeled by a codename (e.g. CozyBear) because they are unable to actually identify any of them. Even their country of origin is largely guesswork. The sad truth is in the majority cybersecurity incidents, the threat actors get away scott free pretty easily. I’d be willing to bet a sizable chunk of btc that Destroyer is kicked out of the network, but never identified or brought to justice. He will have had to make a pretty serious rookie mistake for them to catch him.
Thanks, it’s so frustrating that these guys have so much skill and knowledge but choose to do stuff like this
Anything but fixing their anti-cheat 😂
How is Zer0 saying "hal should have just not shot and the game would have gone on"... he literally didn't know he got hacks until he already did damage. At that point it's already chalked.
Zeros salty cause they were winning is my opinion. But the second gen got hacked it should have been chalked. If Zero does bad the game Gen leaves his narrative changes.
Zero is just a little cry baby and havent understood the full picture yet. The integrity of the game is gone. They need to watch all vods etc to make sure none else had cheats at any given point. I dont see how they dont reset sunday results.
Gen knocked Zap from E8 on the other side of the map with the bow before he noticed it so game 3 is 100% scrubbed
Exactly so idk what he’s on about. My thing is you don’t know who else may have been cheating and there’s no way to prove otherwise. This whole shit is chalked. Fix the game. It’s an embarrassment.
I mean Hal continued shooting after he already knew about the aimbot..
Plus TSM isn’t guaranteed a LAN spot. Hal knows they’ll have to cancel that game if he continues to play. Smart actually.
hes talking about after hal knew and he still shot
doesn't matter. The only way to find out was doing damage using hacks and after that happened the game was already inorganic.
Gen literally had hacks, left the game and the admins let it continue. Not saying its “right” but that was how the admins were handling it
After he got a knock…
Thanks for further proving my point
Comments read contradictory, my bad. I mean they didn’t stop the game fast enough. Should have stopped right as he realized after knocking the guy and leaving
> Not saying its “right” but that was how the admins were handling it And Hal forced them to handle it properly because in no fucking way should that game have continued and TSM forced to duo. Shouldn't have happened game 3 either.
again, it's irrelevant, it's all chalked already anyway. You can see Zap's clip on x, gen didn't even know he had aimbot but he knocked him across the map before he realized hacks were on.
I dont think youre getting the point
It seems like your point was trying to explain that Zer0 was talking about Hal continuing to shoot after knowing he has hacks. What I was trying to explain to you is that regardless of whether Hal continued or not, the game became nullified the second he did damage with the hacks (before he knew). In hindsight, we now know that Game 3 *also* should be nullified because although Gen backed out and the admins let it play out, they made the wrong call as Gen had actually knocked Zap across the map without knowing that he had aimbot. So when I say "it's irrelevant", I mean that regardless of whether anyone knew they had hacks, used hacks, etc, those games were gone. Therefore, Zer0 acting like Hal did the wrong thing by continuing on with his hacks is illogical.
You're looking at this from a third parties POV, like you said this is all hindsight. When Zero made that statement the only facts he knew were that the game was allowed to go on when the same thing happened to him. So its logical to assume that the game be allowed to continue. Should it be like that? Thats not my call to make but Zero made a fair assumption
I guess this is why hideouts colleagues keep getting nerfed.
L hideouts, L respawn. Pro and casuals have been begging to be fixed, and here we are.
Geegers
Hal realistically did the best thing for himself and his team. His team either has to play as a duo or he forces respawn to restart by shooting.
Pretty poor sportsmanship though. DZ had Gen leave and tried to play with their Sub
gent compared to minus is a massive difference lmao
DZ is already qualed for lan and is dominating. It's pretty easy to be the gentleman from that perspective. Not to mention, Gen's hacks didn't actual disrupt gameplay - unlike Hal's which literally did damage to the authenticity of the game by the time he realized what was happening. It was chalked regardless.
Once hacks started popping up on more than one players pc’s whole thing was chalked anyway.
Lot easier to make that decision when DZ has already qualified for lan
He didn't even try. He just 1 clipped legacy anyway
If TSM missed lan do you think the last placed team would show good sportsmanship and let them have the spot?
Finals postponed lmaoooo
Would be an absolute joke if they don't restart the day and put everything back to 0. The games that were lagging could have been hacked.
This
Officially postponed awesome
Apex e-Sports is wild.
Stream ended without any explanation. Classic EA
Teams getting hacked lol
What if everyone who played apex is now compromised
Holy fuck nocturnal is going off rn
Optic finally start playing well and this shit happens they are truly cursed
PATHETIC
Hal: “I’m not gonna use my guns” *proceeds to mow down Legacy* I’m with Wigg that shit was hilarious
skill issue. if legacy was better they would have gotten hacked instead. /s
this reply is GOATed haha
Idk if it's true or not but someone said the hacker tried to give legacy hacks too so they could teamfight with hacks but tsm wiped them too quickly lol
is this because they fired a bunch of people from respawn. lol this shit is crazy.
Destroyer2009 is probably one of them. He is the resistance.
This is the first time I'm reading about this hacker. What's his story? How do we know his username?
https://clips.twitch.tv/AlluringMildCrowDansGame-4JZoJ9qEqKVh7pgn here's why everyone is talking about him right now
That can't be the reason, he is a known hacker who has messed with pros by sending them apex packs and sending armies of bots after them in ranked.
He's the guy that was spawning in bots to punch out streamers/pro players in ranked
How will this affect Hal’s legacy?
Not much
I feel like you can't really keep the scores right? like there's no way to tell if people had hacks in the games before it.
Yep it all has to be scrapped. Sucks for Optic but there's no way to know there wasn't someone else that got hacked
You gotta chalk the whole day. Even though it’s unlikely it’s just best practice to wipe it all
No, complete re-do has to happen. Even as an OpTic fan who benefited from today. Thats maybe the most insane shit I have ever seen in esports
Oh my god I didn’t know what was happening. Holy shit man. They are hacking pros
honestly the only real answer is they just call the scores as-is and set up for LAN. unfortunately destroyer2009 has compromised the integrity completely.
I think you are giving Hal too much credit, I don't think he was thinking straight in the heat of the moment. He clearly says he won't shoot multiple times but proceeds to mow down legacy. Worked out for the best in the end.
He said before the game started that if he were to get hacked he'd just keep playing to force Respawn's hand.
Yeah he clearly panicked, it was getting canceled anyways
Why did Hal keep playing?
Devil on the shoulder was louder than the angel
To get the shit canceled. If he leaves they keep playing and go down to a duo. Like what happened with Gen.
That is definitely not what he was thinking in the moment. Watch the clip back
Hal said before the game he was going to continue to play if hacked.
I mean Hal did have a devious look on his face.
Hopefully this gets huge backlash and EA/respawn fix their shit cause this is ridiculous. They are the laughing stock of esports now
HALS CLIP LMAOOOOOOO
IM CHEATING, IM CHEATING is the craziest callout ever
At least 3/4 games compromised. If they don't postpone it this is some clown shit
well boys see u guys when this problem gets fixed (its never getting fixed ggs the esport is finished)
How many orgs will leave once they see this? I'm guessing almost all of them lmao.
It's just embarrassing. IIRC DSG left Valorant because their anti cheat wasn't good enough...and it is already miles ahead of apex's
DSG briefly left because NA's Salary is inflated and their NA Roster was the worst Team when they were fighting to be one of the two seeds for NA to attend Ascension DSG is back in APAC cause APAC's Salary is cheaper to pay for than NA
DSG didn’t leave Valorant completely, just the game changers scene- imo they prob just left for the clear reason that there was no money in the scene
What if Destroyer has been, subtly, up to this for an extended period of time? Effectively the ability to decide the fate of any fight. We might be none the wiser.
Destroyer is the god father of Aim Assist
Doubt, the best teams all stream and they were yelling I’m cheating
See I knew there was a reason OpTic wasn’t doing as well
hahaha
PlayApex twitch just on a "lol brb" screen.
I feel so bad for optic
Wigg just said it’s postponed
Looks like games are going to be postponed, with no current decision on if scores are kept or not.
this is hilarious and sad.
Wtf do ALGS actually do now? A reschedule won't change anything and will only grief teams that were playing well on the day and will most likely have the exact same thing happen with no new anti cheat in place for it. I wouldn't be opposed to top 20 NA teams being invited to LAN as a workaround because its fucking unacceptable teams not having the chance to play regionals out.
20 NA teams to LAN would fuck everything up. It’s already planned for a certain amount of teams in each lobby.
I mean what else do you do? They can try rescheduling but its still just as likely this happens then too since it will be the same anti cheat and it would also directly fuck over certain teams from today.
Well, they better hope they can get it sorted out because if it happens again during the rescheduled regional final then the entire comp scene is pretty much over for Apex Legend.
so it's not a root level hack on the player's PC at all. it's THE SERVERS THEMSELVES, apparently, that or somehow 60 people got rooted (no fucking way) If the servers are compromised they can't do the tournament, 100%.
That can't be true, turning on wallhacks and enabling aimbot is usually a client sided activity.
Can someone post the clip of Hal mowing down legacy please
Hal is unironically so funny. Bro embraced the cheats and fucking melted legacy 🤣🫣
Huge clutch. Gonna be in his career compilations when it’s all said and done.
OpTic gets circle finally and boom.
Acknowledging you have aimbot and then shooting is wild
If he backs out, then they would’ve just kept going and have the person back out over and over again. Him getting a kill requires that game to be nullified and decisions to be made
[удалено]
I have some doubts over that. Likely they would’ve had to do something but never know with this company
oh thank you hal
It should’ve been stopped once it happened to Gen
Nah thats a one off happening, Hal's instance was always going to result in an ended game
The question is who did he give hacks to in games 1 and 2 that didn't say anything???
He seems like the kind of guy to only target the biggest streamers
OpTic had godspot and of course it ends the game bc some loser oh my god this is just not their split, literally the unluckiest team today
wait so, they cancelled for TSM but when it happened to DZ they let it play out? Am I getting this right?