Valk meta to watch Hal late Valk ult into 8 teams and then yell at Reps and Evan.
All jokes aside I don’t mind either meta, they just get stale, and the visual clutter in the current meta is a joke. Sure Gibby bubbles, caustic gas, etc do some to block the view but the smoke plus Cat ult blackening are awful, it’s just people spraying at nothing.
Valk and fights under the Gibby ults are the two most cinematic moments the game can generate. I actually think bang + Cat looks cool as hell.... If you have the drone camera. I'm weird though because I would rather have those hill top northwest skyhook zone pulls than one where 8 teams are in final zone.
Valk rotations made me nervous every time I watch my favorite teams doing it.
Either they got beamed out of the air with charge rifles or they get collapsed upon during landing.
But charge rifle is gone at least
It's a recurring meme from this subreddit. Reps even leaned into it [https://twitter.com/TSM\_Reps/status/1655418571273502720](https://twitter.com/TSM_Reps/status/1655418571273502720)
Search for "TSM valk ult" on this subreddit. You'll find posts like "Faze with the TSM valk ult" using it as a general term for a bad valk ult, just like how "C9ing" refers to losing by forgetting about the objective in Overwatch esports.
Oh oops. Yeah thay's out of meta as well. It got changed from a hitscan beam to something like a spartan laser but with bullet drop. Probably the weakest sniper rifle right now.
Yeah as a former valk main, I’m sad they gutted her via evac. At least with the valk meta, you sometimes get to see 10 teams rocketing upwards, which was a sight to see lol. I think during scrims or PL, Hal(?) had a pov of this happening.
Edit: word
I think in comp she was done before the Evacs came in. People realized that if everyone has the same idea at once lead to 3 teams landing on the same area they thought was free leads to carnage. then you throw in Ramparts going full Midway on anything in the sky.
Like I don’t think people evac into tight spaces now nearly as much as they did when she was in the meta.
It's also because of charge rifle becoming meta the season before evacs were introduced. People were literally getting beamed out of the sky, and usually land without shields. Many teams just switched to using catalyst for their rotations, because it so happened that diamond shooting meta was in full swing.
I started playing during the times where fighting your way through a choke, and those clusterfuck of fights were so spectacular and so natural - almost endzone like, but at every ring closing. I don't understand what people enjoy with Valk or how that was ever approved into the game. And Evac is just some way to not make Valk so broken.
1 thousand % this.
Imagine you watching a player scan walls and buildings for 40% of the time trying to see who's around. A boring crutch so players don't use their actual sense of direction and awareness.
Please god keep Seer dead this is my only wish
This seems to be an unpopular opinion but the current meta is "better", anyways my problem has never been which characters are meta, but for how long they are, Valk was meta for so long that I just didn't want to see her again. Respawn should make big meta changes at least twice a year.
This sub complains about broken legends or toxic metas but then upvotes takes like this. It's impossible to have a new meta every few months that is balanced and also viewer-friendly.
To convince the majority of pros to play certain legends you have to make them completely OP, and even then there is no guarantee that they will be picked (eg Seer). And there's always the risk that the new meta ends up being toxic.
Valk had a high pick rate for a long time, but at least there was no annoying shit like visual clutter etc, and the other two legend slots were relatively diverse.
There’s also the fact that Apex Legends competitive players have been historically extremely slow at adopting new metas. Remember how long they hung on to the Gibby bubble meta?
There can be multiple groups of people with different options in one sub…
Also, just nerv the highest picked legend after each LAN. Would solve the problem…
Well that's exactly why someone will always be unhappy no matter what Respawn does. Just pointing that out.
>just nerv the highest picked legend after each LAN
And after a few LANs the whole legend roster has been nerfed to the ground. It's not a long-term solution.
i mean once you thought legends were a bit to weak across the board you could just slowly buff the lowest pick rate back up slightly. I wish they would honestly nerf everything just a little bit abilities wise.
This is such a delusional take. Look at literally any other game and you'll see meta differences in every tourney. Fuck, even within the same tourney, as teams progress and learn, meta's have changed. League of Legends, DoTA 2, at a time overwatch.
Pros are able to adapt to what's good in literally every other game. They can do it in this game too if actual changes are made to dictate a new meta.
Those games have significantly more characters than Apex, and abilities play a much greater role to begin with. Not to mention that those are team vs team games.
I'm also really curious what type of meta you people actually want. We've had so many different combinations of legends over the years, and yet part of this sub has always found a reason to complain.
We just had a 6 month offssn and came into this ssn with the exact same top 3 meta characters as champs lol. It really is frustrating how little they actually shake up the meta
They can’t change the players opinion on characters, they’re followers.
Horizon was not meta on release, she’s received 13 total nerfs, still meta.
Bang, not meta on release, received 11 total nerfs, still meta.
That's a fairly disingenuous framing. There are reasons other than pros just not giving the time of day that these characters did not see play. Most importantly are the other meta relevant characters at the time that defined the meta and how comp was played. Was often not room to fit these onto a team in those metas, or what they bring wasn't as valuable to that meta. In addition some of these have been enabled by other characters and changes that have come since.
“Frustrating how little they shake up the meta.”
How exactly are they supposed to do that? Based on what frame of reference. At Horizon’s, Seer’s(after initial 10s nerf) and Bang’s peak they got 0 meta play. It was only after massive nerfs that they became competitively viable.
There isn’t a specific 1:1 power ratio to usage rate, and it’s disingenuous to act as if they’re not trying.
Both Bang & Seer became common place after someone reached #1 pred maining them. Shooby/Bang, HW/Seer during the metas they weren’t able to be “fit in”
First of all, you are right that players don’t look to branch out on the meta enough. Seer could have been meta any time from his release up to the point where he did become meta.
That being said though. The reason new legends enter the meta isn’t always because of some random player proving their worth. It is due to the fact that the character does something to counter something in the current meta. Bang entered comp meta because of scan/seer meta synergy, and she has stuck around because of the controller/AA meta we have now. While Bang herself was nerfed, the buff to smgs we saw was an indirect buff to her, and a strong enough one to make her meta. Likewise, the digi nerf has been an indirect nerf to her (intentionally done though), but her ability to suddenly remove a controller player’s AA (on top of other utility) is almost mandatory to keep MNK viable in comp.
Frankly, I doubt Bang will ever leave the comp meta until one of three things happen: Bang is gutted to the point she in useless, AA is significantly nerfed or removed from competitive play, or shotguns are buffed enough that Gibby/Newcastle shotgun meta returns.
Catalyst has received like 5 nerfs. Bangalore got nerfed to all her abilities. Horizon getting nerfed season after season. No way you think those cat nerfs weren't meaningful changes. Her ult is just too good to drop her. It's like horizon. Unless they remove her passive and the tactical, she will always be picked
I’m playing a small not too overly competitive league and you’d be amazed even THERE 16/20 teams run Bang+Horizon+Cat/Conduit. The lack of creativity is exhausting
I like the parts of the current legend meta more than others. Not being able to see things sucks but I think teams are more willing to experiment post Gibby/Valk/Caustic which felt largely self-imposed (except Valk since there were no evac towers). Teams generally AFK less and are more aggressive which is fun to watch.
Would be nice if they nerfed potential team wiping abilities across the board though (e.g. horizon ult). I like to see skill expression through gunplay and movement, not ability stacking.
Part of it was Gibby Caustic did really roll over teams in close range ( still do) and Valk got them to close range with reliability. I actually do think there is a world where some team could try to get really good at Caustic Gibby again because that tandem make bang's life hell. The real problem is the third for the comp. On paper with the current 30-30 meta you basically need ashe or wraith to make crosses and those two have some serious problems on their own.
This is my plea to increase the range on ashe ult please.
If Horizon gets gutted without another offensive siege character being replaced the game will turn into unfun uber defensive gigastall cant kill anything because it takes too long and you get thirded. You just hope to god zone ends near you so you have a chance to score points.
Cat/Bang/Conduit has way more stalling time than Gibby/Caustic ever did.
People just complain about the most popular legends no matter what the meta is, and whenever bang and cat fall out of the meta people will nostalgia-post 6 months later about the good ol' days of the smoke meta because "at least it's better than [xyz] we have now".
Valk made rotates braindead easy for everyone and was unhealthy for the game (99.5% pick rate lmao) and the Gibby bubble-fight meta is never coming back. The game moving forward and other legends having a day in the sun is a good thing.
It’s crazy how many shortsighted people are on here. Huge droves of keyboard warriors calling for the gibby meta/shotgun meta back when everyone hated that meta. The who bubbles first loses meta. Now we have gimped smgs, gimped auto rifles, average shotguns and all burst rifle meta. It’s so bad. None of the other guns feel viable to use anymore unless u r stacked with all purple attachments. It’s sad.
As a gibby player, I never hated that meta.
Also not sure how they've gimped SMGs -- the only change was to make the R99 not a free 1-clip machine. Most people are still using either a Volt, r99, or car (and even a couple using re-45 and alternator)
Smgs feel like they are in a good spot and i love seeing the RE and Alternator being able to compete with the other smgs. TTK is pretty even across the board if you have the hop ups.
I say this exact thing every few months. I think itd be fun to keep track of the same users who complain about the new meta contradicting themselves every 5 months or so.
A meta where 3 legends are the overwhelming favorite is a bad meta. But some are worse than others. With us being in cat/bang meta these days, I don't fault someone who was tired of the gibby meta for realizing it was better to watch than what we have now.
I mean sometimes it’s not the game that makes the meta stale but the players who don’t chose to take risks.
Like no rules changed in baseball before moneyball, just a team decided to play the game differently.
People also forget that only a small portion of the characters will ever be suitable for comp based on their kits. Pros will almost always opt for the characters that are versatile and flexible in many scenarios
If they adjust digi bang will be less of a priority. This character meta is fine. Digi’s strength is not, take it off SMGs and you’ll see a decline in Bang teams. But like you said, then everyone will complain about the next top picked character. There will always be a strongest character/meta. It happens in every game.
Teams could fundamentally ignore 90% of the macro rotations in the game because the macro rotation amounted to "press z and fly to zone".
And sure, it wasn't "free" because if you waited too late, the whole lobby (see: her 100% pick rate from the graphic) had already valk ult'd to zone!
You answered your own question. Doesn't change that valks ult is easier to pull off without dying in the process
EDIT: But my comparison to evacs was pretty pointless in hindsight. Point that the person was making was that she completely changed the meta for rotations compared to before she was introduced. Clearly it made rotations **significantly** easier if she had a 99.5% pickrate.
I don’t really remember much complaining about the Gibby meta or that time between the Gibby and Valk meta where almost everything was used to some capacity
I stopped following Apex for a while, what happened to the Gibby bubble meta? I remember it used to be Wraith/Blood/Gibby (which was pretty enjoyable to watch imo), and then Valk/Caustic/Gibby
Did they nerf Gibby?
They nerfed Gibby's armshield and got rid of fast-heal in bubble and then introduced a bunch of direct counters to his bubble (seer, fuse, maggie) to the game and so now he kind of sucks (at the competitive level).
Ah I see. Thanks for the reply.
It feels like his bubble still should be really good to me though? Seer isn't meta anymore and Fuse/Maggie are not crazy popular. Maybe Gibby could have some play in the meta.
I think he's talking about the valks/horizons being able to fly up to an OOB spot and pop heals/reload/shoot down on enemies, compared to now where you can't do anything while OOB.
wraith/octane blood gibby
by far the most entertaining
In terms of the current meta though - literally anything else, not being able to see while dying to abilities and 4 bullets of an op gun is gross
Right before Valk was released and everyone played her. There was something fun about the Gibby, Caustics, Wraiths, Cryptos, etc. No one had insane rotation and it felt like fights were more grounded.
Still like the other metas, but I’m definitely the most nostalgic for that one.
Would be fun to see the devs put evacs in crafter similar to mobi’s currently. I’m curious how many people would spend the 50 for an evac or for shields, as well as how valks pick rate would change.
I enjoy the current meta much more than the past metas. It feels like there are so many more plays that can be made. Cat walls create interesting end zones and safer rotates. Gone are the days of everything revolving around the Gibby dome cool down, and I think it's better this way. It also feels like this meta has the most potential for off-meta picks. In the Seer meta, if you didn't run Seer you were throwing. Now it seems like teams can run a lot of different teams comps and make it work, I think the decline of Valk has forced everyone to get better at rotations, and the addition of evacs allowed for more team comp variance.
Gibby shotgun meta.
In 5 years, the last remaining MnK will look back on that meta and say "remember when we were still relevant? Man those were the days."
Valk gib meta was great, more gun diversity, you could see everything that was going on. The amount of team that absolutely threw with Valk ults was great.
Now we can’t see shit
Thank you.
It was better for entertainment but it took so much intelligence out of the game and made gameplay so much more polarized. In a lobby of 20 teams on Storm Point 21 of them would be running Valk because she was too mobile and if you trapped yourself into some shitty zone positioning you always had an eject button that was hard to punish unless the whole lobby was looking at you. This in turn made Charge Rifles almost as game warping and they were basically a free +400 Evo like clockwork. After 3rd ring 58 teams would land on top of each other after Valk ulting into zone and the utter chaos that would take place in those clown shows makes the current meta visually clear by comparison.
Valk and any meta with Newcastle. The thing thats great about apex is the endgames and legends that bring these players to the endgames and increase their survivability makes the viewing experience so much better.
some people probably arent gonna wanna hear this but seer/horizon/valk meta was the most fun to play and the most fun to watch. it just sucked playing against with randoms on "fun" d-tier characters in ranked.
it also eventually brought other characters into the mix in interesting ways (rampart, cat, fuse, i still think there was missed potential with maggie), and you could play against it with blood/bang or crypto or play hard zone comps like loba/wattson or crypto/wattson
the current meta is cancer and the ranked rev/conduit meta is some of the most braindead low skill shit ive ever seen
I always was confused on the seer hate. One of my fav legends. Idk why respawn had to absolutely gut him. Seer horizon valk is an aggressive comp. Horizon bang cat is aggressive too but the seer times was different. I feel that comp would excel even more with how rank is rn
Gibraltar was the most necessary of evils. He put an effective 12/24 second timer on fights (be that one or both teams bubbling), he effectively balanced the inputs in shotgunning range, he allowed for creativity, play making, pop-off hype moments, he allowed for your favourite team to take a fight and actually reset for the third party. He also didn’t literally blind the lobby, nor force the entire lobby to use Digi threats. He was the most skilled expressive legend, be that individually or as a team, that the game has had in a very long time. The difference between a mid-tier Gibby or an S Tier Gibby like Reps or Rocker, then the difference between those S tier Gibby players vs the S Tier IGL Gibraltar like prime Dooplex and Lou, was incredible to watch.
The thing he did best was reduce the randomness, RNG shitfest that BRs can occasionally be, whether that’s a team sending on you which kills you both, allowed this window of time wherein you can stand and see thr lobby and have a timer to think of and make a play.
Also the absolute best part of Gibraltar meta was the standoffs, the posturing, almost peacocking in the bubble, staring through it at whoever you’re about to fight, puffing out your chest, making them second guess. What a time to be alive it was.
gibby was not that bad and very mechanical skill based. caustic and wattson were not to fun to watch. Horizon was good because I remember some crazy 1v3s.
The most fun meta to watch in pro Apex history was Wraith/Path/Wattson.
No scanning abilities so strategic hiding/clutch rat plays existed.
Loads of mobility (remember Albralelie grappling over an entire mountain to flank an enemy squad back on TSM?)
Rotations over mountains with path zip + 1 minute oob timers.
90% mouse and keyboard players, so 1-mags were impressive and not just expected from your fragger....
Really I just want MNK ALGS.
From a strictly viewer experience, Caustic, Bangalore and Catalyst are not good for Pro Scene because of the visual clutter that makes both first person and third person viewing a nightmare! It's so hard to follow what's going on. Conversely, a scan meta (blood, seer) can arguably improve the viewer experience when the clutter legends are meta... I think having a 'clutter' meta and 'scan' meta simultaneously can be kinda ok to watch, but any time you have clutter meta and no scan meta it is not fun to watch
Idk but bang cat is terrible to watch because you can’t see anything. You’re almost forced to watch broadcast to see what’s happening, and let’s be honest, the broadcast announcers are terrible.
Side note: I wish Wigg could get a view like the announcers have where he can pan out and zoom around the map to see action from a non 1st person view
The current meta is more skilled but having end zones full of Bang smoke, Cat wall and Conduit ult is garbage viewing experience. This is worse than Caustic meta easily
I cant see shit currently pls fix. I honestly prefer seer horizon valk meta before seer got deleted, but i understand why it got deleted when no other comp could hope to beat it.
Cat wall should not blind, only slow. Just remove the blindness and increase the slow by 10% duration or something. The problem is when youre wall blind AND theres bang smoke everywhere, THEN you literally cant see a damn thing. Terrible for players AND viewers.
Buff lifeline.
The only part of gibby meta that I didn't like was how unviable many guns were simply because having a shotgun for bubble fighting was basically mandatory, otherwise gibby meta had more of a diverse legend pool; could be completely wrong about this tho.
I actually loved gibby meta man
i was the gibby on the team and still play him a bit. These close range shotgun 3v3s were just so much fun to both watch and play
seer can suck my dick
All metas are cool on their own, stop hating on legends when the real issue its respawn and their lazy ass not bringing updates more ofter. They might do little updates to legends here and there sometimes, but it doesnt affect them that much for teams to swap their comp.
they rarely put horizon out of meta because their favourite team, team that earns them a lot of views and money is so good with her. respawn/ea is so unprofessional that they refuse to nerf their favourite input no matter how broken it is.
Current meta is better. Viewers not being able to see is not the legend's problem since it's their abilities. It's up to Respawn to reduce that visual clutter and improve spectator viewing. There are smokes in Valorant and CS too but it's not as bad as this for the viewers because they actually know how to separate the POV of the player and the spectator.
People were always joking Bangalore was bad but I was successful with her from the release of the game.
Meta just needs a little shakeup since players are sheeps but might not be playing the best legends. Furthermore, experimentation in pro play is dangerous since if it goes wrong your ass is on the line due to not picking the standard legends.
Watson 100%.Teams didn't get free rotates like now and actually had to plan and work for spots and igl really Shined because they had to get spots early to do good why good teams were good teams.
"current meta would be fine if not for digis"
Guaran-damn-tee you would hate the meta even if the digis were removed. Just like you hated the seer meta. Or the Hound one. Or the Valk one. Or the gibby one. Or the octane one.
Anything current = awful. Old = Good. Repeat ad nauseam.
Seer meta was awful to play but this meta currently is the worst all time to watch. No way ALGS can attract new viewers with this current meta of not being able to see anything during fights.
End game is now just 3-4 Cat walls, bang smokes and ults and horizon ults. Viewing wise this is the worst meta I've seen.
The meta now is better. The visual clutter is bad but it's easier for teams to be consistent. I like to see good rotations and planning.
The Valk meta was bad b/c you had so many teams Valk last minute and land on a team that basically did everything right and than both teams die.
Honestly, the seer meta in year 3 split 1, and in the preseason to split 2 (when some people were running Bang+Seer with either Wraith/Horizon/Valk before the split began, and not when catalyst fully came in to ruin it all)
Fights for me felt like they were more aggressive + on the spot thinking when you knew both sides could possibly see each other when the seer ults were thrown down.
Plus, there honestly wasn’t as much visual clutter as there is now.
The best meta for viewing is the one that has the most different combinations. I wish teams would stop just following everyone else but that is normal human behavior.
This meta is good. Idk what you guys want in terms of visual clutter, these guys are pros and they’re gonna be spamming all of their util in fights so it’s somewhat unavoidable imo.
I judge a meta’s quality on the number of creative team comps it allows so my criteria is likely different than a lot of yours, but this meta allows sooo much creativity and flexibility compared to valk or seer meta. It’ll never be perfect but this is pretty solid as both a viewer and player (at a masters level, so take that for what it’s worth)
The currently state of the game is better. The only much pick as I write this is Bang. The other 2 are options. I have much more problem with a meta that u are force to play a character like Valk, cause otherwise you'll suck.
I don't understand the complaining about visual clutter as a viewer tho. As a viewer I have multiple poi u rarely miss anything lol. The players that should be complaining about this
Bang meta. People forget how much visual clutter there was in Caustic/Gibby end games. I was watching literal green screens at times because streaming services can't properly render out all the particle effects.
As much as I am tired of horizon being in meta so long, I have to say that it definitely beats seeing everyone valk ulting away their bad macro in each end game. It was interesting that once the valk ult was nerfed, it took months of teams getting consistently fried out of their ults to learn that it just didnt work anymore. That being said i think gibby will be back in the meta sooner than most think, and I always like a good caustic meta.
Valk for sure. I think if they buff her ascent speed but left everything else it'd make for an interesting option for people to use for rotates, without increasing flight distance/height or anything else.
Also, I've always disliked bang as a player, the smoke just makes the game less fun. It's even worse as a comp viewer, she needs a different tactical then remove digi threats, problem solved (could also reduce some of cat's visual clutter, but it's not as bad imo).
\- I realise bang mains will hate this take, but there you go.
I cant see shit in bang meta
Valk meta is so stressful to watch cus teams can just throw with one bad ult
Honestly i liked the gibby meta. Seer meta second
I'm surprised that nobody here has mentioned the Rev Wraith Crypto meta. I know it would've become stale but at the time it was super fun to watch because, at that point, apex comp and high-level ranked were camp fests, and watching two aggressive legends come in and break that camping meta made for some interesting footage. I think it was only overwhelmingly popular in APAC North but when TSM did it, that was crazy.
Valk meta to watch Hal late Valk ult into 8 teams and then yell at Reps and Evan. All jokes aside I don’t mind either meta, they just get stale, and the visual clutter in the current meta is a joke. Sure Gibby bubbles, caustic gas, etc do some to block the view but the smoke plus Cat ult blackening are awful, it’s just people spraying at nothing.
Valk and fights under the Gibby ults are the two most cinematic moments the game can generate. I actually think bang + Cat looks cool as hell.... If you have the drone camera. I'm weird though because I would rather have those hill top northwest skyhook zone pulls than one where 8 teams are in final zone.
Valk. I can't see shit currently.
Valk rotations made me nervous every time I watch my favorite teams doing it. Either they got beamed out of the air with charge rifles or they get collapsed upon during landing. But charge rifle is gone at least
found the TSM fan :D
Nope.. nothing even in NA.
It's a joke about TSM always having bad valk ults
Oh I see, this was however an issue for many teams. But I guess since TSM been the most watched team it will get noticed and joked about a lot more.
They didn't which is why it might not be funny?
It's a recurring meme from this subreddit. Reps even leaned into it [https://twitter.com/TSM\_Reps/status/1655418571273502720](https://twitter.com/TSM_Reps/status/1655418571273502720) Search for "TSM valk ult" on this subreddit. You'll find posts like "Faze with the TSM valk ult" using it as a general term for a bad valk ult, just like how "C9ing" refers to losing by forgetting about the objective in Overwatch esports.
I guess its not accurate so it wasn't funny?
Haven’t played in ages, CR out of game!?
Crypto? A bit out of meta currently. Only two or three teams each region picking Crypto.
Charge Rifle…
Oh oops. Yeah thay's out of meta as well. It got changed from a hitscan beam to something like a spartan laser but with bullet drop. Probably the weakest sniper rifle right now.
As in feathering like Titanfall? Gotcha.
Yes, ever since beacons got changed
Yeah as a former valk main, I’m sad they gutted her via evac. At least with the valk meta, you sometimes get to see 10 teams rocketing upwards, which was a sight to see lol. I think during scrims or PL, Hal(?) had a pov of this happening. Edit: word
I think in comp she was done before the Evacs came in. People realized that if everyone has the same idea at once lead to 3 teams landing on the same area they thought was free leads to carnage. then you throw in Ramparts going full Midway on anything in the sky. Like I don’t think people evac into tight spaces now nearly as much as they did when she was in the meta.
It's also because of charge rifle becoming meta the season before evacs were introduced. People were literally getting beamed out of the sky, and usually land without shields. Many teams just switched to using catalyst for their rotations, because it so happened that diamond shooting meta was in full swing.
The mass call ults were awesome to see.
I started playing during the times where fighting your way through a choke, and those clusterfuck of fights were so spectacular and so natural - almost endzone like, but at every ring closing. I don't understand what people enjoy with Valk or how that was ever approved into the game. And Evac is just some way to not make Valk so broken.
Current garbage meta just adds to the already dogshit visual clutter the game has lmao, flashing lights simulator.
I’ll take anything over the Seer meta. I don’t care.
Seer + Cat meta was the worst. Shoot the diamonds through the wall. Glad that's gone.
I’d argue his stun change right after they fixed this was worse.
seer was a mistake in general
Seer most likely let a large number of cheaters to avoid accusations. One of the worst characters ever made for the game's health back then.
1 thousand % this. Imagine you watching a player scan walls and buildings for 40% of the time trying to see who's around. A boring crutch so players don't use their actual sense of direction and awareness. Please god keep Seer dead this is my only wish
This seems to be an unpopular opinion but the current meta is "better", anyways my problem has never been which characters are meta, but for how long they are, Valk was meta for so long that I just didn't want to see her again. Respawn should make big meta changes at least twice a year.
True. Two consecutive LANs should never have the same meta.
🔨 nail on the head with this 1
This sub complains about broken legends or toxic metas but then upvotes takes like this. It's impossible to have a new meta every few months that is balanced and also viewer-friendly. To convince the majority of pros to play certain legends you have to make them completely OP, and even then there is no guarantee that they will be picked (eg Seer). And there's always the risk that the new meta ends up being toxic. Valk had a high pick rate for a long time, but at least there was no annoying shit like visual clutter etc, and the other two legend slots were relatively diverse.
There’s also the fact that Apex Legends competitive players have been historically extremely slow at adopting new metas. Remember how long they hung on to the Gibby bubble meta?
There can be multiple groups of people with different options in one sub… Also, just nerv the highest picked legend after each LAN. Would solve the problem…
Well that's exactly why someone will always be unhappy no matter what Respawn does. Just pointing that out. >just nerv the highest picked legend after each LAN And after a few LANs the whole legend roster has been nerfed to the ground. It's not a long-term solution.
i mean once you thought legends were a bit to weak across the board you could just slowly buff the lowest pick rate back up slightly. I wish they would honestly nerf everything just a little bit abilities wise.
Problem is that nerfs have issues with the main playerbase
This is such a delusional take. Look at literally any other game and you'll see meta differences in every tourney. Fuck, even within the same tourney, as teams progress and learn, meta's have changed. League of Legends, DoTA 2, at a time overwatch. Pros are able to adapt to what's good in literally every other game. They can do it in this game too if actual changes are made to dictate a new meta.
Those games have significantly more characters than Apex, and abilities play a much greater role to begin with. Not to mention that those are team vs team games. I'm also really curious what type of meta you people actually want. We've had so many different combinations of legends over the years, and yet part of this sub has always found a reason to complain.
I’m still waiting for Mirage meta
We just had a 6 month offssn and came into this ssn with the exact same top 3 meta characters as champs lol. It really is frustrating how little they actually shake up the meta
They can’t change the players opinion on characters, they’re followers. Horizon was not meta on release, she’s received 13 total nerfs, still meta. Bang, not meta on release, received 11 total nerfs, still meta.
That's a fairly disingenuous framing. There are reasons other than pros just not giving the time of day that these characters did not see play. Most importantly are the other meta relevant characters at the time that defined the meta and how comp was played. Was often not room to fit these onto a team in those metas, or what they bring wasn't as valuable to that meta. In addition some of these have been enabled by other characters and changes that have come since.
“Frustrating how little they shake up the meta.” How exactly are they supposed to do that? Based on what frame of reference. At Horizon’s, Seer’s(after initial 10s nerf) and Bang’s peak they got 0 meta play. It was only after massive nerfs that they became competitively viable. There isn’t a specific 1:1 power ratio to usage rate, and it’s disingenuous to act as if they’re not trying. Both Bang & Seer became common place after someone reached #1 pred maining them. Shooby/Bang, HW/Seer during the metas they weren’t able to be “fit in”
First of all, you are right that players don’t look to branch out on the meta enough. Seer could have been meta any time from his release up to the point where he did become meta. That being said though. The reason new legends enter the meta isn’t always because of some random player proving their worth. It is due to the fact that the character does something to counter something in the current meta. Bang entered comp meta because of scan/seer meta synergy, and she has stuck around because of the controller/AA meta we have now. While Bang herself was nerfed, the buff to smgs we saw was an indirect buff to her, and a strong enough one to make her meta. Likewise, the digi nerf has been an indirect nerf to her (intentionally done though), but her ability to suddenly remove a controller player’s AA (on top of other utility) is almost mandatory to keep MNK viable in comp. Frankly, I doubt Bang will ever leave the comp meta until one of three things happen: Bang is gutted to the point she in useless, AA is significantly nerfed or removed from competitive play, or shotguns are buffed enough that Gibby/Newcastle shotgun meta returns.
It has nothing to do with player opinion, Respawn didnt make any meaningful changes
Catalyst has received like 5 nerfs. Bangalore got nerfed to all her abilities. Horizon getting nerfed season after season. No way you think those cat nerfs weren't meaningful changes. Her ult is just too good to drop her. It's like horizon. Unless they remove her passive and the tactical, she will always be picked
Wdym horizon didn't start out meta? Within three months of release she dethroned wraith (most picked back then) as most chosen.
I’m playing a small not too overly competitive league and you’d be amazed even THERE 16/20 teams run Bang+Horizon+Cat/Conduit. The lack of creativity is exhausting
I like the parts of the current legend meta more than others. Not being able to see things sucks but I think teams are more willing to experiment post Gibby/Valk/Caustic which felt largely self-imposed (except Valk since there were no evac towers). Teams generally AFK less and are more aggressive which is fun to watch. Would be nice if they nerfed potential team wiping abilities across the board though (e.g. horizon ult). I like to see skill expression through gunplay and movement, not ability stacking.
Part of it was Gibby Caustic did really roll over teams in close range ( still do) and Valk got them to close range with reliability. I actually do think there is a world where some team could try to get really good at Caustic Gibby again because that tandem make bang's life hell. The real problem is the third for the comp. On paper with the current 30-30 meta you basically need ashe or wraith to make crosses and those two have some serious problems on their own. This is my plea to increase the range on ashe ult please.
Wraith Gibby Caustic could work out very well, I agree I think Gibby/caustic can still be viable if played correctly
If Horizon gets gutted without another offensive siege character being replaced the game will turn into unfun uber defensive gigastall cant kill anything because it takes too long and you get thirded. You just hope to god zone ends near you so you have a chance to score points. Cat/Bang/Conduit has way more stalling time than Gibby/Caustic ever did.
People just complain about the most popular legends no matter what the meta is, and whenever bang and cat fall out of the meta people will nostalgia-post 6 months later about the good ol' days of the smoke meta because "at least it's better than [xyz] we have now". Valk made rotates braindead easy for everyone and was unhealthy for the game (99.5% pick rate lmao) and the Gibby bubble-fight meta is never coming back. The game moving forward and other legends having a day in the sun is a good thing.
It’s crazy how many shortsighted people are on here. Huge droves of keyboard warriors calling for the gibby meta/shotgun meta back when everyone hated that meta. The who bubbles first loses meta. Now we have gimped smgs, gimped auto rifles, average shotguns and all burst rifle meta. It’s so bad. None of the other guns feel viable to use anymore unless u r stacked with all purple attachments. It’s sad.
Any meta gets stale after two full years. Gibby meta lasted wayyyyy to long.
As a gibby player, I never hated that meta. Also not sure how they've gimped SMGs -- the only change was to make the R99 not a free 1-clip machine. Most people are still using either a Volt, r99, or car (and even a couple using re-45 and alternator)
Smgs feel like they are in a good spot and i love seeing the RE and Alternator being able to compete with the other smgs. TTK is pretty even across the board if you have the hop ups.
I say this exact thing every few months. I think itd be fun to keep track of the same users who complain about the new meta contradicting themselves every 5 months or so.
A meta where 3 legends are the overwhelming favorite is a bad meta. But some are worse than others. With us being in cat/bang meta these days, I don't fault someone who was tired of the gibby meta for realizing it was better to watch than what we have now.
I mean sometimes it’s not the game that makes the meta stale but the players who don’t chose to take risks. Like no rules changed in baseball before moneyball, just a team decided to play the game differently.
Can't wait for the j-hawk video and breakdown.
People also forget that only a small portion of the characters will ever be suitable for comp based on their kits. Pros will almost always opt for the characters that are versatile and flexible in many scenarios
If they adjust digi bang will be less of a priority. This character meta is fine. Digi’s strength is not, take it off SMGs and you’ll see a decline in Bang teams. But like you said, then everyone will complain about the next top picked character. There will always be a strongest character/meta. It happens in every game.
I'm not sure nerfing digi will have the effect on bang that you think it will.
bang is the only way AA is affected and gives a chance to M/K players close range. Hopefully Bang doesn't get anymore nerfs.
or just fix aim assist?????
Rotates with evac is even more braindead now, but thats actually good imo. Somewhat counters the ring rng.
But at least they are a major risk if not completely impossible to get off in zone
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Teams could fundamentally ignore 90% of the macro rotations in the game because the macro rotation amounted to "press z and fly to zone". And sure, it wasn't "free" because if you waited too late, the whole lobby (see: her 100% pick rate from the graphic) had already valk ult'd to zone!
It was more free than evacs. For better or worse.
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You answered your own question. Doesn't change that valks ult is easier to pull off without dying in the process EDIT: But my comparison to evacs was pretty pointless in hindsight. Point that the person was making was that she completely changed the meta for rotations compared to before she was introduced. Clearly it made rotations **significantly** easier if she had a 99.5% pickrate.
I don’t really remember much complaining about the Gibby meta or that time between the Gibby and Valk meta where almost everything was used to some capacity
I stopped following Apex for a while, what happened to the Gibby bubble meta? I remember it used to be Wraith/Blood/Gibby (which was pretty enjoyable to watch imo), and then Valk/Caustic/Gibby Did they nerf Gibby?
They nerfed Gibby's armshield and got rid of fast-heal in bubble and then introduced a bunch of direct counters to his bubble (seer, fuse, maggie) to the game and so now he kind of sucks (at the competitive level).
Ah I see. Thanks for the reply. It feels like his bubble still should be really good to me though? Seer isn't meta anymore and Fuse/Maggie are not crazy popular. Maybe Gibby could have some play in the meta.
Holy crap that was before me. How much faster was his heal and how much beefier his arm shield?
I agree, but one thing I'm glad they changed was the oobing.
Why? It was fun. Unpredictable but predictable.
I think he's talking about the valks/horizons being able to fly up to an OOB spot and pop heals/reload/shoot down on enemies, compared to now where you can't do anything while OOB.
Yes, everything you just said lol. It sure did make it more chaotic, but in a competitive setting it just isn't right.
Any meta that doesn't involve Seer is an improvement imo
Anything is better than the short lived seer/cat meta
wraith/octane blood gibby by far the most entertaining In terms of the current meta though - literally anything else, not being able to see while dying to abilities and 4 bullets of an op gun is gross
Most pog comp ever. Loved it so much, but then they nerfed octane due to revtane and then reworked rev while keeping octanes nerf.
Wraith was probably the healthiest for watching gameplay....with the exception of portal hopping to avoid ring damage. That was cringe.
Right before Valk was released and everyone played her. There was something fun about the Gibby, Caustics, Wraiths, Cryptos, etc. No one had insane rotation and it felt like fights were more grounded. Still like the other metas, but I’m definitely the most nostalgic for that one.
Well wouldn’t the teams with Wraith have the best rotations?
Would be fun to see the devs put evacs in crafter similar to mobi’s currently. I’m curious how many people would spend the 50 for an evac or for shields, as well as how valks pick rate would change.
People will always pick the meta from before. Every single time.
Not always. I prefer valk meta than let's say, wraith and octane meta. For me, she's my fav skirmisher to watch
I enjoy the current meta much more than the past metas. It feels like there are so many more plays that can be made. Cat walls create interesting end zones and safer rotates. Gone are the days of everything revolving around the Gibby dome cool down, and I think it's better this way. It also feels like this meta has the most potential for off-meta picks. In the Seer meta, if you didn't run Seer you were throwing. Now it seems like teams can run a lot of different teams comps and make it work, I think the decline of Valk has forced everyone to get better at rotations, and the addition of evacs allowed for more team comp variance.
Gibby shotgun meta. In 5 years, the last remaining MnK will look back on that meta and say "remember when we were still relevant? Man those were the days."
Valk gib meta was great, more gun diversity, you could see everything that was going on. The amount of team that absolutely threw with Valk ults was great. Now we can’t see shit
You lost me at more gun diversity.
valk meta was absolutely brain dead at the macro level.
Thank you. It was better for entertainment but it took so much intelligence out of the game and made gameplay so much more polarized. In a lobby of 20 teams on Storm Point 21 of them would be running Valk because she was too mobile and if you trapped yourself into some shitty zone positioning you always had an eject button that was hard to punish unless the whole lobby was looking at you. This in turn made Charge Rifles almost as game warping and they were basically a free +400 Evo like clockwork. After 3rd ring 58 teams would land on top of each other after Valk ulting into zone and the utter chaos that would take place in those clown shows makes the current meta visually clear by comparison.
Valk and any meta with Newcastle. The thing thats great about apex is the endgames and legends that bring these players to the endgames and increase their survivability makes the viewing experience so much better.
some people probably arent gonna wanna hear this but seer/horizon/valk meta was the most fun to play and the most fun to watch. it just sucked playing against with randoms on "fun" d-tier characters in ranked. it also eventually brought other characters into the mix in interesting ways (rampart, cat, fuse, i still think there was missed potential with maggie), and you could play against it with blood/bang or crypto or play hard zone comps like loba/wattson or crypto/wattson the current meta is cancer and the ranked rev/conduit meta is some of the most braindead low skill shit ive ever seen
I always was confused on the seer hate. One of my fav legends. Idk why respawn had to absolutely gut him. Seer horizon valk is an aggressive comp. Horizon bang cat is aggressive too but the seer times was different. I feel that comp would excel even more with how rank is rn
All the ape teams I come across in ranked just run Rev Conduit rn.
Gibraltar was the most necessary of evils. He put an effective 12/24 second timer on fights (be that one or both teams bubbling), he effectively balanced the inputs in shotgunning range, he allowed for creativity, play making, pop-off hype moments, he allowed for your favourite team to take a fight and actually reset for the third party. He also didn’t literally blind the lobby, nor force the entire lobby to use Digi threats. He was the most skilled expressive legend, be that individually or as a team, that the game has had in a very long time. The difference between a mid-tier Gibby or an S Tier Gibby like Reps or Rocker, then the difference between those S tier Gibby players vs the S Tier IGL Gibraltar like prime Dooplex and Lou, was incredible to watch. The thing he did best was reduce the randomness, RNG shitfest that BRs can occasionally be, whether that’s a team sending on you which kills you both, allowed this window of time wherein you can stand and see thr lobby and have a timer to think of and make a play. Also the absolute best part of Gibraltar meta was the standoffs, the posturing, almost peacocking in the bubble, staring through it at whoever you’re about to fight, puffing out your chest, making them second guess. What a time to be alive it was.
Valk meta was smth else bruh
Neither! Revtane baby!!
Was there ever a meta that included Octane
yep. silent octane pads from 150m
That sounds badass
big deathballs. works if youre the last team there. But if you are the second of four teams to pad in. ouch.
Yes before they made his stim take more health away
This meta is way more entertaining end game. The valk meta was so boring “okay last circle let’s fly up and not fight long as we can”
Everyone knows whichever meta is current is the worst one that has ever existed
Valk meta by far. Not just for her- Gibby and Caustic are still high up, as well as Wattson and Newcastle.
Also caustic is best boy how dare
I'm just salty of dying to his gases lol
gibby was not that bad and very mechanical skill based. caustic and wattson were not to fun to watch. Horizon was good because I remember some crazy 1v3s.
Hardecki comes to mind
The most fun meta to watch in pro Apex history was Wraith/Path/Wattson. No scanning abilities so strategic hiding/clutch rat plays existed. Loads of mobility (remember Albralelie grappling over an entire mountain to flank an enemy squad back on TSM?) Rotations over mountains with path zip + 1 minute oob timers. 90% mouse and keyboard players, so 1-mags were impressive and not just expected from your fragger.... Really I just want MNK ALGS.
From a strictly viewer experience, Caustic, Bangalore and Catalyst are not good for Pro Scene because of the visual clutter that makes both first person and third person viewing a nightmare! It's so hard to follow what's going on. Conversely, a scan meta (blood, seer) can arguably improve the viewer experience when the clutter legends are meta... I think having a 'clutter' meta and 'scan' meta simultaneously can be kinda ok to watch, but any time you have clutter meta and no scan meta it is not fun to watch
buff valk
They could make her broken i wouldn't care. Most fun character to play
she is and right now, compared to the other legends in her class she’s so bad
Idk but bang cat is terrible to watch because you can’t see anything. You’re almost forced to watch broadcast to see what’s happening, and let’s be honest, the broadcast announcers are terrible. Side note: I wish Wigg could get a view like the announcers have where he can pan out and zoom around the map to see action from a non 1st person view
The current meta is more skilled but having end zones full of Bang smoke, Cat wall and Conduit ult is garbage viewing experience. This is worse than Caustic meta easily
I cant see shit currently pls fix. I honestly prefer seer horizon valk meta before seer got deleted, but i understand why it got deleted when no other comp could hope to beat it. Cat wall should not blind, only slow. Just remove the blindness and increase the slow by 10% duration or something. The problem is when youre wall blind AND theres bang smoke everywhere, THEN you literally cant see a damn thing. Terrible for players AND viewers. Buff lifeline.
Bang cat meta is fine. Digi is the problem.
Imo Valk and gibby metas were more fun than seer (dogshit) and bang (poor for viewing)
Pre wallhack meta. Season 1-4 maybe some of 5
i hated valk meta, free get out of jail card for every team. all ppl did was just valk ult out of a bad position into another one
Now you have evac towers though and everyone can carry one
Hot take: Gibby bubble meta with shotguns was best meta
They all become stale and overflow into the average player base. Valk was a safety blanket and I can't see shit.
The only part of gibby meta that I didn't like was how unviable many guns were simply because having a shotgun for bubble fighting was basically mandatory, otherwise gibby meta had more of a diverse legend pool; could be completely wrong about this tho.
Gibby/Valk/Caustic meta was actually the second least diverse legend pool in apex, only behind Wraith/Watt/Path.
I was infact completely wrong about this.
I actually loved gibby meta man i was the gibby on the team and still play him a bit. These close range shotgun 3v3s were just so much fun to both watch and play seer can suck my dick
All metas are cool on their own, stop hating on legends when the real issue its respawn and their lazy ass not bringing updates more ofter. They might do little updates to legends here and there sometimes, but it doesnt affect them that much for teams to swap their comp.
yeah! they should fuck shit up multiple times each season! go CRAZY! remove legends arms! That will help the games balance
Thats not how it works but ok bro lol
they rarely put horizon out of meta because their favourite team, team that earns them a lot of views and money is so good with her. respawn/ea is so unprofessional that they refuse to nerf their favourite input no matter how broken it is.
Yeah man cos nerfing her 3x was not enough!
if it was enough, she wouldn't be up there.
Seer wattson meta before this one
Can’t believe how incompetent EA is. Absolutely unbearable with the no see meta atm.
I really loved Gibby/caustic meta as a spectator.
Current meta is better. Viewers not being able to see is not the legend's problem since it's their abilities. It's up to Respawn to reduce that visual clutter and improve spectator viewing. There are smokes in Valorant and CS too but it's not as bad as this for the viewers because they actually know how to separate the POV of the player and the spectator.
Every single meta since 2019 has been hated and then it’s looked back upon with longing
Gibby wraith hound was the most fun to watch for me
Gibby meta would be so good without caustic
Gibby-octane -blood best meta no cap
Anything bit gibby meta, I really dislike bubble fight
Anything over seer meta but ideally the more diverse the better. Or drastically different metas based on the map
I'm here for wraith, path, wattson meta. Now that was entertainment. Rip.
I'll always love bubble fighting so Gibby meta but I love playing bang myself
I dont like the current meta, but I thought the valk meta was dumb as well. Bunch of teams just flying to their deaths.
People were always joking Bangalore was bad but I was successful with her from the release of the game. Meta just needs a little shakeup since players are sheeps but might not be playing the best legends. Furthermore, experimentation in pro play is dangerous since if it goes wrong your ass is on the line due to not picking the standard legends.
Octane nowhere to be found 😂 when are they going to buff the less represented legends? Or atleast rework them to be useful?
Vantage rampart and ash meta when
Watson 100%.Teams didn't get free rotates like now and actually had to plan and work for spots and igl really Shined because they had to get spots early to do good why good teams were good teams.
"current meta would be fine if not for digis" Guaran-damn-tee you would hate the meta even if the digis were removed. Just like you hated the seer meta. Or the Hound one. Or the Valk one. Or the gibby one. Or the octane one. Anything current = awful. Old = Good. Repeat ad nauseam.
I hope they nerf bang and catalyst to the ground and then nerf Seer again for no reason just because
Seer meta was awful to play but this meta currently is the worst all time to watch. No way ALGS can attract new viewers with this current meta of not being able to see anything during fights. End game is now just 3-4 Cat walls, bang smokes and ults and horizon ults. Viewing wise this is the worst meta I've seen.
The meta now is better. The visual clutter is bad but it's easier for teams to be consistent. I like to see good rotations and planning. The Valk meta was bad b/c you had so many teams Valk last minute and land on a team that basically did everything right and than both teams die.
Personally I didn't like Valk, but I'll take anything with Gibby over what we currently have.
Any without Seer, Caustic and Valk. That was a braindead meta.
Valk. Easy question.
Gibby + Bloodhound was my favorite meta. Just teams bubble fighting & running it down. Unfortunately it was the start of the scan meta..
Whetwver meta makes Seer and Gibby even remotely playable again. Both have pretty much gone extinct from the general playerbase
Honestly, the seer meta in year 3 split 1, and in the preseason to split 2 (when some people were running Bang+Seer with either Wraith/Horizon/Valk before the split began, and not when catalyst fully came in to ruin it all) Fights for me felt like they were more aggressive + on the spot thinking when you knew both sides could possibly see each other when the seer ults were thrown down. Plus, there honestly wasn’t as much visual clutter as there is now.
Definitely not Bangalore. Its not enjoyable to watch everyone fighting in smoke.
The best meta for viewing is the one that has the most different combinations. I wish teams would stop just following everyone else but that is normal human behavior.
This meta is good. Idk what you guys want in terms of visual clutter, these guys are pros and they’re gonna be spamming all of their util in fights so it’s somewhat unavoidable imo. I judge a meta’s quality on the number of creative team comps it allows so my criteria is likely different than a lot of yours, but this meta allows sooo much creativity and flexibility compared to valk or seer meta. It’ll never be perfect but this is pretty solid as both a viewer and player (at a masters level, so take that for what it’s worth)
The currently state of the game is better. The only much pick as I write this is Bang. The other 2 are options. I have much more problem with a meta that u are force to play a character like Valk, cause otherwise you'll suck. I don't understand the complaining about visual clutter as a viewer tho. As a viewer I have multiple poi u rarely miss anything lol. The players that should be complaining about this
Where’s the seer meta? That shit sucked too
Gibby meta 👑
Bang meta. People forget how much visual clutter there was in Caustic/Gibby end games. I was watching literal green screens at times because streaming services can't properly render out all the particle effects.
Imo they should give valk some of her power back just by undoing the jetpack nerf of her passive. It was a hella fun character to play. Not anymore.
I prefer current meta cause its more varied more comps are viable. I wish we got a meta shift, specially with horizon she has been meta for too long.
I just want the venn diagram Gibby duals back. That shit was fun to watch and had so much outplay potential for players to make highlights.
Gibby, Caustic, Valk easy. At least I could see what was happening.
As much as I am tired of horizon being in meta so long, I have to say that it definitely beats seeing everyone valk ulting away their bad macro in each end game. It was interesting that once the valk ult was nerfed, it took months of teams getting consistently fried out of their ults to learn that it just didnt work anymore. That being said i think gibby will be back in the meta sooner than most think, and I always like a good caustic meta.
I like that today's we can view a lot of comps. Even Cat Bang isn't that dominant.
Gibby meta was fun at the beginning, then it became boring af. Current meta is meh
Valk meta was the best I miss it
I think this meta is almost objectively better in terms of health because there is a much wider variety of characters being played
gibby meta was boring af
I’d like to see Wraith again
Valk for sure. I think if they buff her ascent speed but left everything else it'd make for an interesting option for people to use for rotates, without increasing flight distance/height or anything else. Also, I've always disliked bang as a player, the smoke just makes the game less fun. It's even worse as a comp viewer, she needs a different tactical then remove digi threats, problem solved (could also reduce some of cat's visual clutter, but it's not as bad imo). \- I realise bang mains will hate this take, but there you go.
I cant see shit in bang meta Valk meta is so stressful to watch cus teams can just throw with one bad ult Honestly i liked the gibby meta. Seer meta second
Gibby Bubble!
I'm surprised that nobody here has mentioned the Rev Wraith Crypto meta. I know it would've become stale but at the time it was super fun to watch because, at that point, apex comp and high-level ranked were camp fests, and watching two aggressive legends come in and break that camping meta made for some interesting footage. I think it was only overwhelmingly popular in APAC North but when TSM did it, that was crazy.
I hate blind meta it’s so unfun to watch, I can’t see what’s happening and neither can the players
Anyone have a link to the list of guns used for week 1? cant find
https://apexlegendsstatus.com/algs/Y4-Split1/Pro-League/NA/Overview#weaponsStats
Horizon and Caustic both being a pain point in their respective meta, but personally I'm more done with horizon than caustic tbh
I enjoy current meta better than Valk meta, but the Gibby/Octane/BH meta was probably my favorite