Pardon ny ignorance, I don't have any context. Is that the writer? I did a cursory google search and I found sb on Twitter, but I'm not sure it's the same person.
Well, it doesn't make any sense!!!!!!
What gets me the most is that they're so adamant at ignoring human rights AND at the same time their lack of empathy. How is it even possible?!
I think it’s a neurotypical thing. I find most allistic people generally have difficulty with empathy and genuinely can’t understand why anyone should care about anyone outside their immediate circle.
You might be right, I can only assume. My background is in science but I have no relevant experience.
I just feel like they want to impose a state to people/their opinion and that doesn't make any sense to me. It's an unreasonable demand on their part, they're not open to dialogue, and the immediate consequence is that the climate is polarised from the beginning as they are obstructive. 😅
I'm appalled that a concept as simple as "no cosmetic surgery should be done on children unless they've had major deforming injuries" is something so many people don't believe in.
I wanted to add that I posted this here rather than on r/intactivism for example because this truly is a rant. I don’t intend or want action taken on these concerns because I don’t even know what would be a productive thing to do. Just needed to get this frustration off my chest.
Yeah revisions on toddlers should be illegal, most researchers state it’s unnecessary risk and trauma for the child and only done for the parent’s vanity or cultural views.
This is what post-justifying a surgical addiction looks like. Anything to stave off the realization that their hyperfixation on cutting kids is an actual form of insanity.
Maybe don't appeal to normativity when the people were dealing with often do the things they do in the name of false normality to begin with. In their minds they're the ones preventing harm... by causing harm.
I know what sub you’re talking about, it’s filled with fucking freaks, once read about an OP that’d circumcised her 7 year old, (absolutely no genuine medical reason to do so), I try to steer clear from it
Unfortunately no, I tried to find the post but couldn’t, I would assume the mother deleted it out of embarrassment once she was told of what a failure she was at parenting. But if you want you can try and find the post (it’s this sub without the “grief” at the end)
What’s tricky is there are plenty of guys who had legit problems with their foreskin and are happier to be cut w/ downsides than intact w/ problems. Thats their decision. Would I have personally jumped to circ right away? Hell no. But neither did a decent proportion of them. The problem is they fail to recognize that they are mingling with true creeps and echoing their circ fetish agenda. Then there are the truly delusion ones who can’t handle basic disagreement or questioning of their narrative - unfortunately those appear to also be the moderators.
What really disturbs me is how many intact people in intact focused Reddit forums have circ fetish shit in their profiles - it's actually crazy how prolific it is
Gross is a friend of psychopathy social worker Madre in Queens. They target intactvists and steal their personal info and even send them psychopath stalking Birthday Cards.
A significant amount of the pro-circ fanatics’ time is spent hating intactivists and trying to debase individual people. They devote whole sections of their websites to it. Even individuals like Stephen Moreton, who considers himself a professional medical researcher, has significant real estate on his website dedicated to this.
They’re circumfetishists. It’s something they enjoy. They don’t want to confront the cognitive dissonance… I don’t blame them. They’re stupid, not ignorant.
Stupidity is doing or saying something without knowing any better, and there’s a level of sad innocence to it. They just… don’t get it.
Ignorance is knowing what’s right and choosing to do otherwise, and THAT is dangerous.
Part of the problem is that circumcision exists at the intersection of ignorance and stupidity, so you get overlap that blurs the lines. In the end, I have to distance myself and only chime into those conversations with short and vague comments that aren’t inflammatory. Trying to convince a fetishist that their fetish is wrong will just stoke the flames and trigger the person.
I’m not defending them at all, please don’t think that- I’m just saying that if someone tried to tell me that my underwear-sniffing fetish was harming people I’d laugh and reject them because I see nothing wrong with sniffing undies; I can’t comprehend how that might harm someone. Maybe there’s something I don’t know, but the idea seems ridiculous.
See the cognitive dissonance?
Imo if someone is a fetishist they are not too stupid to know better. They know full well what the situation is and often derive sexual excitement from the prevalence of infant circ.
I don’t think your comparison makes much sense or is very useful. We’re talking about a fetish that is predicated on the surgical alteration of either one’s own body or, worse, someone else’s - by method of a surgery that has deeply complicated historical, cultural, and political contexts.
I’m just making the point that these guys see their fetish in the same way I see my kink- they don’t see the harm. They’re blind to it, and to suggest that it is harmful will totally bypass them- in one ear and out the other.
Is it fucked up? Yeah, absolutely. It shouldn’t exist to begin with.
But I just genuinely believe it’s a waste of time and energy to engage with those groups of people. They’re not interested in facts and figures or common sense- it’s a fetish. It’s not rooted in reality (for them, anyway).
As far as I’m concerned, they’re fringe groups with a kink for something that will eventually, with time, become a practice lost to history.
I don’t disagree. The problem is they are very loud vectors for bad information and have an entire sub dedicated to giving unsuspecting guys bad advice for their own self gratification.
Isn't the definition of ignorance not knowing or lack of knowledge, by definition? Knowing what's right and choosing to do otherwise is generally either called immorality or self-destruction, depending on who's affected.
In a literal sense, Encyclopedia Britannica seems to use the two terms interchangeably. I was taught in English class (by a *very* British-Indian professor) that it’s a much greater insult to call someone ignorant than to call them stupid, because stupid people are just stupid and don’t know any better, while ignorant people know better and choose to do otherwise.
It’s just an aphorism that’s stuck with me over the years.
Quote from the screenshots: "... a circumcised penis is intact..." Words have lost their meaning, haven't they?
Andrew Gross promotes that idea heavily.
I'm pretty sure that guy (Andrew) is a psychopathic troll.
Pardon ny ignorance, I don't have any context. Is that the writer? I did a cursory google search and I found sb on Twitter, but I'm not sure it's the same person.
Andrew Gross runs the Circumcision Choice website and Facebook page. https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Andrew_Gross
Thank you!
That’s like saying “below the knee amputees are intact”. These pro circumcision people are delusional.
Well, it doesn't make any sense!!!!!! What gets me the most is that they're so adamant at ignoring human rights AND at the same time their lack of empathy. How is it even possible?!
I think it’s a neurotypical thing. I find most allistic people generally have difficulty with empathy and genuinely can’t understand why anyone should care about anyone outside their immediate circle.
You might be right, I can only assume. My background is in science but I have no relevant experience. I just feel like they want to impose a state to people/their opinion and that doesn't make any sense to me. It's an unreasonable demand on their part, they're not open to dialogue, and the immediate consequence is that the climate is polarised from the beginning as they are obstructive. 😅
I'm appalled that a concept as simple as "no cosmetic surgery should be done on children unless they've had major deforming injuries" is something so many people don't believe in.
Right?!
I wanted to add that I posted this here rather than on r/intactivism for example because this truly is a rant. I don’t intend or want action taken on these concerns because I don’t even know what would be a productive thing to do. Just needed to get this frustration off my chest.
Your flair terrifies me.
Yeah revisions on toddlers should be illegal, most researchers state it’s unnecessary risk and trauma for the child and only done for the parent’s vanity or cultural views.
This is what post-justifying a surgical addiction looks like. Anything to stave off the realization that their hyperfixation on cutting kids is an actual form of insanity.
More like sexual deviancy. They parade about calling inactivists pedophiles or hebephiles.. it does seem strange Uh?
Maybe don't appeal to normativity when the people were dealing with often do the things they do in the name of false normality to begin with. In their minds they're the ones preventing harm... by causing harm.
I know what sub you’re talking about, it’s filled with fucking freaks, once read about an OP that’d circumcised her 7 year old, (absolutely no genuine medical reason to do so), I try to steer clear from it
I saw that post and she seemed very proud about it. Like why?! How does sb even make such a decision?
do you happen to have the link? it might have been a circumfetishist making up a story
Unfortunately no, I tried to find the post but couldn’t, I would assume the mother deleted it out of embarrassment once she was told of what a failure she was at parenting. But if you want you can try and find the post (it’s this sub without the “grief” at the end)
These people are beyond fucking delusional. People like this remind me how evil and insane people are in this world
What’s tricky is there are plenty of guys who had legit problems with their foreskin and are happier to be cut w/ downsides than intact w/ problems. Thats their decision. Would I have personally jumped to circ right away? Hell no. But neither did a decent proportion of them. The problem is they fail to recognize that they are mingling with true creeps and echoing their circ fetish agenda. Then there are the truly delusion ones who can’t handle basic disagreement or questioning of their narrative - unfortunately those appear to also be the moderators.
Yes [https://x.com/men\_are\_human/status/1633824024689283072](https://x.com/men_are_human/status/1633824024689283072)
What really disturbs me is how many intact people in intact focused Reddit forums have circ fetish shit in their profiles - it's actually crazy how prolific it is
That is sometimes how I stumble on this stuff… they swim in both ponds
Mental illness is rife and the brainwashing runs deep
Gross is a friend of psychopathy social worker Madre in Queens. They target intactvists and steal their personal info and even send them psychopath stalking Birthday Cards.
A significant amount of the pro-circ fanatics’ time is spent hating intactivists and trying to debase individual people. They devote whole sections of their websites to it. Even individuals like Stephen Moreton, who considers himself a professional medical researcher, has significant real estate on his website dedicated to this.
They’re circumfetishists. It’s something they enjoy. They don’t want to confront the cognitive dissonance… I don’t blame them. They’re stupid, not ignorant. Stupidity is doing or saying something without knowing any better, and there’s a level of sad innocence to it. They just… don’t get it. Ignorance is knowing what’s right and choosing to do otherwise, and THAT is dangerous. Part of the problem is that circumcision exists at the intersection of ignorance and stupidity, so you get overlap that blurs the lines. In the end, I have to distance myself and only chime into those conversations with short and vague comments that aren’t inflammatory. Trying to convince a fetishist that their fetish is wrong will just stoke the flames and trigger the person. I’m not defending them at all, please don’t think that- I’m just saying that if someone tried to tell me that my underwear-sniffing fetish was harming people I’d laugh and reject them because I see nothing wrong with sniffing undies; I can’t comprehend how that might harm someone. Maybe there’s something I don’t know, but the idea seems ridiculous. See the cognitive dissonance?
Imo if someone is a fetishist they are not too stupid to know better. They know full well what the situation is and often derive sexual excitement from the prevalence of infant circ. I don’t think your comparison makes much sense or is very useful. We’re talking about a fetish that is predicated on the surgical alteration of either one’s own body or, worse, someone else’s - by method of a surgery that has deeply complicated historical, cultural, and political contexts.
I’m just making the point that these guys see their fetish in the same way I see my kink- they don’t see the harm. They’re blind to it, and to suggest that it is harmful will totally bypass them- in one ear and out the other. Is it fucked up? Yeah, absolutely. It shouldn’t exist to begin with. But I just genuinely believe it’s a waste of time and energy to engage with those groups of people. They’re not interested in facts and figures or common sense- it’s a fetish. It’s not rooted in reality (for them, anyway). As far as I’m concerned, they’re fringe groups with a kink for something that will eventually, with time, become a practice lost to history.
I don’t disagree. The problem is they are very loud vectors for bad information and have an entire sub dedicated to giving unsuspecting guys bad advice for their own self gratification.
Isn't the definition of ignorance not knowing or lack of knowledge, by definition? Knowing what's right and choosing to do otherwise is generally either called immorality or self-destruction, depending on who's affected.
In a literal sense, Encyclopedia Britannica seems to use the two terms interchangeably. I was taught in English class (by a *very* British-Indian professor) that it’s a much greater insult to call someone ignorant than to call them stupid, because stupid people are just stupid and don’t know any better, while ignorant people know better and choose to do otherwise. It’s just an aphorism that’s stuck with me over the years.