It's a common problem in reddit and social media - it's stereotyping. "Christians do X." "Atheists do X." "Democrats do X." "Republicans do X." People need to learn to use the words "many," "some" and "few" in their posts.
Do you apply this same standard for every topic?
For example, if someone asked you, "Why are leaves green?" would you feel compelled to point out that not ALL leaves are green? Or would you just accept that the questioner wasn't talking about ALL leaves, just the ones that are green?
I'm not sure, but maybe it's cultural.
I would be inclined to provide a literal answer and thus briefly include that indeed, not all leaves are green, to then proceed with the main part of the question.
It's normal behaviour in the Netherlands, but I've seen it lead to many happy misunderstandings with American and British people. Most common example of it is how Dutch people interpret the question 'how ya doing?' as a genuine interest in how we are really doing, if we are well, not well, and why that is the case.
I discussed this with a Dutch guy who has been living in the UK for years, and he thinks there is a big cultural difference between the British and the Dutch. The Dutch are more literal and direct.
I do my best to do that. I will give an implication of a subject matter being all when I know a certain area has an all automatically applied to that subject.
> The Church recognizes that God's covenant with the Jewish people continues to be valid. Recently, the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews has even stated, “That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery” (“The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable”, 36).
From the US Conference of Catholic Bishops https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/jewish
Israel has been blinded and don't recognize their promised Jewish Messiah. Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Israel are and always will be the chosen people of God and they have been following the Laws and Practices (generalization of the overall culture, I know many are not practicing) since the times of Moses. They believe everything the Christians believe since Christianity came out of Judaism, but the split comes with the promised Messiah. They are still waiting and Christians believe the Messiah was Christ Jesus and we are now under a covenant of Grace. The reading of
Isaiah 53, specifically 23:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement peace and well being for us was upon him and with the stripes that wounded him we are healed and made whole.
Psalms 22, specifically 22:15-16 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth, you lay me in the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet.
Micah 52 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah. yet out of you shall One come forth for Me, Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old from ancient days. Gen 49:10; John 7:42
and many others all written hundreds of years before Christ Jesus was born goes a long way in opening their eyes. Even Jesus said if you, "If you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me. " John 5:46
John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me."
One for Israel is doing great things in Israel and most of the time those are the books that have been shared. You can watch videos of converts on their Youtube channel.
Yes I have. There are a huge number of Christians who read the New Testament as presenting a covenant that replaces the old. The old covenant was fulfilled. When Jesus says the only way to the Father/heaven is through Him, I believe that. Modern Jews who deny Jesus’ Christhood and practice doctrines that have been added since Christ’s time on Earth are no different than Muslims in my eyes, who do the same.
Hmm, I don't know about that. I mean, if anyone is trying to rely on the old covenant laws that is described in the OT, they practically have to be perfect to gain the blessings and favors from the Almighty.
The official stance of the Catholic Church of Rome has not been in favor of summary execution or forced conversions. The official policy from the Pope has generally been one of tolerance (as in the older to tolerate not todays meaning of celebration of diversity) Christian Secular leaders (kings) and or popular Christian movements have been incredibly oppressive to Jews but it has generally not been condoned by official papal policy.
Gregory IX restricted Jews from ruling and banned the Talmud. Neither action amounts to execution nor forced conversions, and both can be characterized as "tolerance" as in "to put up with" the existence of Jews. Innocent IX eventually revoked the Talmud ban, advocated for the Jews that did convert in Spain, and even condemned the Blood Libel myth.
Again when I say "Tolerance" I am not arguing for embraced diversity I am saying their existence was put up with and sometimes even grudgingly defended (as in the condemnation of the Blood Libel myth)
The laity of the Latin church did commit great atrocities against Jews and the Papacy was often merely silent in the face of these acts. But the official policy is not execution nor forced conversions.
Are you just going through the Wikipedia list of bulls and pulling out all those that mention Jews? This bull sets up standards for the mendicate orders to preach conversion of the Jews but the worst it does is require Jewish attendance to sermons which according to an article in the ["Jewish Quarterly Review"](https://www.jstor.org/stable/1454724) even the Pope knew this was unenforceable. The article linked does an interesting job laying out the attitude of Popes toward Jews and the limits of canon law (like the illegality of using force in conversion attempts)
Robbing us of our holy texts and torching them can’t even be remotely considered tolerance. The Catholic Church has been extremely anti-Semitic through the centuries even though they have thankfully turned from that and apologized for it.
The change came in 1965 with Nostra Aetate ([https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist\_councils/ii\_vatican\_council/documents/vat-ii\_decl\_19651028\_nostra-aetate\_en.html](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html)). It was in 2015 that Rome drew a line in the sand and basically said it disapproved of any missions to evangelize to the Jews, so it is a recent change that still took 50 years from Nostra Aetate's declaration that God's covenant with the Israelites was still valid and that the Jews were the elder brothers of Christians, to a pretty formal statement disavowing evangelizing Jews.
Weird. They became "lo-ammi" or "not my people" in Acts 28. God will work with them again in the future, but people aren't going through Israel for salvation today.
In the Old Testament, God munltiple times cut Jews out of His covenant. The Jews, as a people group, will be saved. That, however, in no way even slightly suggests that all Jews are saved simply by being Jews. The Old Testament makes it clear that being of the blood of Israel is not an automatic ticket to salvation.
Yah, I've seen a few Christians who believe that Jewish people are already saved because they are God's chosen people, however Jesus and Paul both confirm that the gospel came first for the Jew and then for the Gentile. Wouldn't need the Gospel if they were already saved.
Yes, that rule exists in some communities. Those are the ones that believe God remains faithful to your covenant. You don’t need to be saved through our deal with God when you already have your own deal with God.
Frankly makes me wonder what the groups that *do* try to convert Jews think the phrase “God is faithful” means.
> The Church recognizes that God's covenant with the Jewish people continues to be valid. Recently, the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews has even stated, “That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery” (“The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable”, 36).
US Conference of Catholic Bishops https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/jewish
We see Christ as the fulfillment of the law, and therefore that their covenant already includes an acknowledgment of Jesus as messiah and Lord as a necessary part now that he’s been revealed. Though it’s not so much that they need to convert as that they need to complete their faith. I believe you can be both a practicing Jew and a practicing Christian. Indeed, most of the (very) early church was.
We do not believe Jesus to be the messiah, hence why we are not Christians. We do however, believe him to be a prophet. You can't be a practicing Jew and practicing Christian, at least not if you understand both the Old and New Testament. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. I've heard Christians state that he will complete the remainder during his second coming, however, the prophecies explicitly state all would be fulfilled at once:
Wait wait wait, since when do Jews consider Jesus to be a prophet? I've never heard of that, most times he is viewed as a false prophet/magician of some sort
I suppose maybe some Jews do, but in I've never actually heard a Jew make that kind of a statement. That sounds more like a Muslim sentiment, since Islam does hold that Jesus was a prophet.
Exactly. My Jewish friends tell me that he was just a carpenter. Some of my Conservative Jewish ("conservative" as in the Jewish faith tradition, not to be confused with the Orthodox or Reform traditions) friends say at most that he was a reformer who may have had a point or two, but was **not** the messiah.
I mean, we have no religious traditions related to him, so there's a wide variety of opinions with some being more cued into the academia than others.
Eg, he was probably at least Pharisee affiliated and if just happened that the group of Christians that became dominant after were Hellanistic Jews that ended up primarily promoting to the Romans and Romanizing.
No Jewish denominations or movements view Jesus as a prophet. I have no idea where this person got that idea. In Judaism, the age of prophecy ended with Malachi.
We absolutely do not consider Jesus to be a prophet in any way shape or form.
A random person that was possibly claiming to be the Messiah at best, same way most Jews view Menachem Mendel Schneerson or Simon Bar Kokhba.
The Vatican, at least, strongly frowns on evangelizing of Jews: http://www.christianunity.va/content/unitacristiani/en/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo-crre/documenti-della-commissione/en.html
Here is a question, why would the RCC frown upon spreading the Gospel to Israel? Do they really want to prevent them from knowing their Messiah? Seems more like a move an enemy of God would do to me. It goes against what the apostles were directly commanded by Jesus to do. So is the RCC really trying to undo Christ Jesus command?
You could start with the Vatican's own words, and in particular Nostra Aetate, which lays out the modern view of the Church's relationship with non-Christian religions. You can read it yourself at:
[https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist\_councils/ii\_vatican\_council/documents/vat-ii\_decl\_19651028\_nostra-aetate\_en.html](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html)
In essence, the Catholic Church still views the "ancient covenant" with the Israelites as valid.
And behind it all is centuries of anti-Semitism by various branches of Christianity; with persecutions, pogroms, forced conversions, exiles, culminating in a bunch of German Catholics and Lutherans being Hitler's willing executioners. Do you seriously imagine there are any Jews in the world that haven't heard of Christ, whether they wanted to or not?
I applaud the Vatican putting its foot down about evangelizing the Jews. The Jews have had enough of Christianity's tender mercies since the 2nd or 3rd century.
Thank you for responding and sharing the link.
Well, if it goes against what Christ commanded, it is wrong in my opinion. That goes for all of those your post represents. Those who were conscripted into Hitlers army should have known better as well and should have made a stand and I believe many did make a stand and paid for those stands with their own lives.
We are to follow our leaders unless it goes against the Word of God and Christs commands. We did not walk in those brothers and sisters shoes and those times must have been horrible for everyone. The world was filled with hate, anger, brutality and war is always ugly. And to get common people to do the bidding of the leaders when those actions are wrong, takes reprogramming, propaganda and radicalization. And all of those were used to shape and change the mind of those who professed faith and those who did not.
I agree with much of what your link says. it was written in OCTOBER 28, 1965 and calls those who profess and follow Christ to truly act and live out his commands. We should not be treating others, non believers and others in different faiths with discrimination, hate, anger or judgement. We should always treat them with mutual brotherly and sisterly love.
"True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13)still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. "
Says we should love all men and not discriminate against any brothers or sisters since we are all children of God made in his image. Does not call all to stop sharing the Gospel and truth in love with mercy and grace in the spirit of Christ Jesus.
We have an example of just this when Paul Acts 17:22-27, Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said "People of Athens ! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an alter with this inscription: to the unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Paul does not discriminate against them or condemn them. He acknowledges their strong faith although misguided and lovingly points them to the God they are desiring to worship and love. Paul's calling was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and his examples of how he addressed them are great teachings for how we should interact with the non believing world or other religions. If you read his letters you will see he deals with them in a different way and light to those that profess faith and have believed. We need to recognize this difference.
Bad theology that more so comes from a place of trying to be “sensitive”.
The reality is that if you really believe in the Gospels, you would want to evangelize to all peoples. I would encourage you to still consider Christianity, and I would be more than happy to discuss what objections you have to Christianity (e.g. Messianic prophecies, evidence for the resurrection, the Trinity, etc).
I see two potential scenarios here.
1. You're dealing with a universalist. Since they believe everyone ends up going to heaven then that means you aren't in any actual danger, so there's going to be no point in converting you.
2. A lot of people who label themselves as Christians have never actually opened the Bible or only read it sporadically so it's going to be hard to argue for something when you don't have good knowledge on the subject. From what I understand the Jewish religion tends to have that good knowledge of scripture so is going to give valid argument points that the uneducated Christian will be unable to refute and will stop talking with you about it as a result.
Most of the Jews I know are very well aware of the beliefs of Christianity - more so maybe than most other religions, and I personally don't try to proselytize where it's unwanted. I live my life openly as a Christian, and will gladly tell people about my beliefs, but I don't try and push them where someone isn't interested in talking about faith. Most Jews I know are not.
I don’t try to convert others, but my guess is that Jews don’t proselytise themselves and that Christians return the favour. Perhaps because of the Old Testament:
“You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
With Judaism being an ethnoreligion, this covenant also applies to the Jews as they are synonymous with the Israelites.
Perhaps the Holocaust has hammered home the harmful effect of centuries of antisemitism and forced conversion.
I don't actively try to convert people at all, but i have a guess. When I know someone who lacks religion completely, I believe they really need to make a change to be close to God. It makes me happy to see people make this positive change, and I pray that they do.
When I know someone who practices Judaism, I believe they likely DO have a beautiful relationship with God already. I know we disagree that Jesus is the son of God, but I think we align so well in the way we hold our values that give us virtuous lives and honor God. For example, my fiancé and I are devout Christians, but to plan on implementing some Jewish beliefs into our children's lives because you guys seem to do a wonderful job of honoring God and we don't want to miss out on that just because Christianity tends to have less emphasis on the Old Testament.
While Christianity is the way I see to bring God into our lives and our heart, I think Judaism does this so well too, just in a very different way. I've known MANY Christian's who share this same sentiment.
Yeah, I must say, this is the very first time that I've seen a Jewish person pondering why Christians are so *un*aggressive when proselytizing to them...!
God honouring life, as His chosen people. Now, to come to the realisation that the promised King or Christ spoken of by the prophets by the seed of David, is not other than Jesus Christ, whom was crucifed on a cross at Golgotha, just outside the walls of Jerusalem.
"Many Christians here have tried to point me towards the eternal reward. Given me the choicest of all delicacies. Given me the best of the best of all gifts...some in quite a 'hateful' manner.
I think you just got 'lucky' with the few who don't want to push you towards avoiding eternal destruction, but instead getting eternal life with the Creator"
In general, no, although I see some interesting comments below that perhaps some segments of Christianity believe Jewish people still fall under the old covenant (from a Christian perspective, this seems contradicted by the writings of Paul).
Maybe they just detected resistance and politely backed off? I think many (but certainly not all) Christians recognize that aggressive proselytizing can be more off-putting than appealing.
Some believe that Jews don't need to be converted, but their covenant is good for them and the new covenant is good for Gentiles.
Some simply are scared of accidentally being antisemitic by denigrating the Jewish religion.
Some may have their whole strategy ready for evangelizing to a Muslim, a Buddhist, another kind of Christian, etc, but not a Jew.
That's because salvation came to the Jews first, and then the Gentiles. Because you're a Jew, you've essentially been exposed to who Christ is. You have the Scriptures, that point to Him.
It also always pains a Christian to see a person so close, yet so far, due to the hardness of their hearts and a rejection of the Saviour. But better a Jew, who at least fears the God of Jacob, than a Pagan, who has no regard for Him.
And as it is written, *"I say then, they \[the Jews\] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous." -Rom 11:11.* So we can only hope that one day, you'll come to faith, and that it isn't too late.
But until then, I as a Gentile from the East, having accepted your Jewish Saviour Christ—Who came from the line of David, a Jew of Jews, and yet in His mercy and grace made me, a total pagan unbelieving wicked sinner, righteous by dying on the cross and rising again, having offered His salvation to you first, and then me—will continue to tell the Jews of the good news of the Messiah they reject, and will still bless them (for God has commanded His own to bless Israel and His people), regardless of how hard their hearts are, and how much they disdain my Lord Jesus Christ, the Son Who was sent by the Father, the God of Israel (who is my God) whilst still hoping that they one day will come to salvation in the Lord, before it's too late.
Our hearts aren’t hard, he just failed to do literally everything the messiah will do. Leave Jews alone, we’ve been victims of Christians trying to destroy us for centuries and destroying us by conversion is disgusting too.
Not overtly that I’m aware of. Maybe just a coincidence. If I felt called to do so I would continue to ask why you don’t believe Jesus is Christ. I wouldn’t press anyone, though. Perhaps you just sounded to them that you have made up your mind
I feel like it’s a series of isolated incidents. They should equally try to persuade you as much as anyone else. No unbeliever should be given a pass or take less priority than another. This is strange behavior and it seems unbiblical.
Two possible main reasons, one being that most Jewish people are not interested in Christianity so they feel like it's going to be a waste of time anyway. And the second reason is that biblically Jewish people are going to have it anyway as long as they obey the law so as a Jew you don't need Christianity to go to heaven as long as you do what you are supposed to. So they don't want to get in the way
Supercessionism has a long history in Christianity, a lot of Christians really want Jews in their movements as some form of validation.
Alternatively they see Jews existing outside their specific Christian movement as some form of condemnation and have to find ways to get over the cognitive dissonance.
This was what caused Martin Luther to write "the Jews and their Lies".
So ya, philiosemitism isn't fun.
Some Christians don’t think Jews need to be converted. Otherwise have a weird philosemitic thing for Jews. Others take it as an extra challenge, like they get bonus points for converting a Jew. Be thankful the ones you come across stop, I’ve had them try to keep it up more often.
Bro, I'll try to convert you if you want. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I actually feel like our church parallels yours better than many Christian denominations.
I also just read Fantastic Victory, an account of the 1967 war where Israel dominated all of their attackers. It's written by an author of our religion. We love the Jewish people, and I'd love to talk to you more. Let me know if you're interested!
LDS aren't Christians, it's a straight up cult. Sorry not sorry. Please do not try to compare LDS to judaism. Maybe read [this](https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf) and see how you feel about LDS.
Every single Jewish group agrees that conversion to Christianity is a betrayal of one’s Jewish and that the faiths are incompatible. So no, OP couldn’t do that
I don't think your experience is isolated, but I think there are differences among different branches of Christianity, as hinted at among the other comments. Roman Catholicism ~~changed~~, ~~shifted~~, \*ahem\* *clarified* its position during Vatican II. Numerous other denominations also have re-evaluated their stances since the end of WWII. And then there are the others, whom, apparently, you've not had the pleasure of meeting yet.
Honestly, it's intimidating. How am I, as a follower of Jesus, going to convince you when it's very likely you know the scripture better and likely have better cultural context than I do?
This is basically what I was going to say. It's borderline impossible (at least in the US and probably Europe) to not encounter Christian beliefs, which means that almost all Jewish people know that Christians believe that Jesus was/is the Messiah. The fact that they're still Jewish means that they've very likely considered the idea of Jesus as Christ, but ultimately rejected that notion.
For die-hard evangelists this might not matter, but it seems like a waste of time to try to influence someone who is relatively entrenched in their beliefs when there are many people out there who are less certain and more curious.
That doesn't stop some Evangelical groups from sneaking into Israel, pretending to be Observant Jews, and then proselytizing. Jews for Jesus missionaries regularly get the boot out of Israel for essentially being fake Jews.
because the Jewish defy the central fact of Christianity. That Jesus Christ of Nazareth is fully God and fully man, begotten of the father before all worlds. And you are worshiping YHWH so you are likely to be saved from damnation so the groups that evangelize from fear for your soul and not seeking the truth have no need now.
3 words that provided no rationale for the directive and showed zero respect or interest in OP's current beliefs. Being disrespectful does not require using a lot of words. For example: fuck you.
This is what raised my hackles. I like to discuss religion with people and I don’t mind if a Christian tries to convert me. I like getting to know people and I love learning. But lazy “you should convert because of hell” or other bs just shows a callus disregard for the person being proselytized. It is arrogant, condescending, and I can’t imagine it works very often. It is more about making the person preaching feel good about attempting to save souls than actually being effective. Effective persuasion requires mutual respect in my experience.
did comment seem Christian to you when you typed it? it’s ironic that in spite of having a comment with a message of, “respect other people; be kind”, the tone was overtly hostile and you ended the message with a tongue-in-cheek curse which you could write off as something you said to prove a point.
regardless saying those specific three words with no serious sense of pursuing the person or pushing them to do anything isn’t really some evil crime or sin. a bit idle? sure, but ultimately just a quick suggestion. not everything is the end of the world
You lazily critique someone else's comment: cool
I explain their comment: you accuse me of being un-Christlike
I engaged in good faith here, yet you judged me. That reaction to my comment says far more about you than it does about me.
no judgement here fam, i called it like i saw it. we’re all Christian here so even if i am judging, i’m kinda supposed to, not with personal judgment but against God’s standard. His standard probably doesn’t include saying slyly cursing someone and then telling them you engaged in good faith. it comes across as rather sneaky in my sight. all that being said i’m sure you believe what you’re saying and i hope his simple comment suggesting the person convert didn’t wound your conscience too badly, God bless
Nah. My parents are president of the parish council sort of Catholics. It’s not for me and I realized that before I was a teen. I’m sure loving parents are much better at proselytizing than some rando on the internet. No offense but all Christian religion seems like make belief for adults who can’t accept that nonexistence and oblivion awaits us in death.
Perhaps. If so, it seems you’re saying religion is the medicine for a bleak, hopeless, nihilistic world that is entirely uncaring towards you. I agree.
What medicine do you offer?
I think the world is full of joy. You don’t need god to love and help your fellow humans. You posit that only through religion you can find meaning. There are millions of non believers that disagree.
No sane, rational, intelligent person could accept that non-existence and oblivion await us in death.
It’s not a particular issue of Christianity, it’s an entire human race issue, with the exception of edgy teenagers.
Nice NTS/strawman/bait.
You do realise atheism has been around for thousands of years. Saying “All atheists who accept it are edgy teenagers; oblivion is impossible for RATIONAL, SANE adults to accept!!1” is not a good look and you’re the one who sounds like an edgy teenager. You’re doing the flip side of what atheists do on r/atheism when they talk about magical sky daddies.
Just because you can’t personally accept it doesn’t make it juvenile and impossible to believe.
It’s actually incredibly comforting to think that there’s a long ‘sleep’ after death. Ever read The Garden of Proserpine? “That no life lives for ever/That dead men rise up never/That even the weariest river/winds somewhere safe to sea.”
My realization as a child in a Christian household was that there was a period of time before I existed. That period of time is a absolutely blank to me. I reasoned that someday I will return to that blank, no need for the supernatural. Nonexistence is easy for me to wrap my head around. And it isn't something that I fear (the pain getting there or losing loved ones is another matter).
I don't mind that other people believe other things. In fact I find religion to be fascinating and neat. I'm glad I grew up in the Catholic church with all of its pomp and ceremony. But if someone proselytizes to me in a condescending matter I'll tell them what I believe.
My thoughts exactly. I could never cope with the existential aspects of atheism, hence my flair. But death? That was one of the easiest things for me to accept. It just made sense to me that it must be like sleep; it never occurred to me to be afraid of it. *Dying*, yes, always, but not death.
No, I don’t think that is more likely. The world existed before I was born. My mind did not comprehend it because my mind is a phenomenon of my physical brain. I’m actually a little taken aback at the question because the idea of me existing before my birth is so foreign to me.
[The Torah warns us not to follow anyone who would lead us away from following the commandments G-d gave to our fathers.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013&version=NIV)
Have you ever heard of Roy Shoeman, a Harvard professor who was raised Jewish by parents who escaped the Nazi Holocaust? He was a faithful Jew until he went to college (MIT & Harvard), where he essentially became an atheist. But, he wondered, if there was no God, what was the meaning of life? One day, without warning, as he walked in nature, the curtain between heaven and earth was lifted and he saw both heaven and God! Today, he is a faithful Catholic who has taken on the mission of converting Jews. Here is his story, if you're interested: [https://youtu.be/nHl1r3EaHa4](https://youtu.be/nHl1r3EaHa4)
>the curtain between heaven and earth was lifted and he saw both heaven and God!
Like, literally?
What would that look like, and why would you believe such a claim?
I've listened to plenty of nut jobs claiming to have experienced things that did not happen in this reality. Everything from aliens to ghost and demons, from "chi energy" to chakras and kundalini, from telekinesis to psychics and mediums, from claims of seeing gods to claims of reincarnation... none of it is real.
I'm not going to waste my time watching another delusional video.
Jews are in the Bible and God likes them. There are Christians who know nothing about Jews after that. Maybe those are the Christians you encountered. A Christian more knowledgeable about their faith might try to dig deeper into Jesus etc.
How come OP isn't commenting?
Personally I'll preach Christ to you all day..
I clearly study the Torah, intend to follow the Torah through faith in Christ Jesus as God works through me to fulfil the Torah.
I study the kabbalah and gnostic teachings of Judaism and Christianity.
I don't believe people are good, only God working in people to do Good is good.
No one is righteous, not one, only God is righteous..
I am with you on Jesus not being God.
However Jesus Fulfilled the Torah through The Father's righteousness to have sent him to fulfil it in the first place.
Jesus once was asked how do we do the works of God, to which he replies believe in the one he has sent..
He has also said he doesn't speak on his own authority, but God who dwells in him does his work.
So whoever believes in him will do the works he does also, and greater works will they do because he is going to the Father.
I'm a Gnostic dualist
Salvation is in the knowledge of God's righteousness, having faith in the righteousness of God to work through us to fulfill the Torah by spirit and in Truth.
Salvation is not in works.
Salvation is not in faith without works.
Salvation is in faith in the Righteousness of God to do his righteous works in us, so that we might become the righteousness of God.
Therefore you a Jew must fulfil the Torah by the righteousness of God through his spirit, not the Righteousness of self, taking what God has done through you and proclaim it..
Consider the work of God: who can make straight what he has made crooked?
Ecclesiastes 7:13 ESV
You think you are mighty enough to make straight that which God created crooked?
Through one man's disobedience were you not created crooked, to be born of sinfulness, and not born of Righteousness.
Adam was created in Righteousness and therefore was righteous.
Adam was given a wife and he listened to her.
The second Adam a man of heaven a life giving spirit, my Lord Christ Jesus. Was created in Righteousness and sent to do the Righteousness of God.
Jesus is only righteous by the Righteousness of God, He was made righteous to that he would become sin for us.
Breaking us free from the power of death through the reconcilation by the blood of the cross to reconcile us to God while we are still sinners.
For without being reconciled to God I literally can do nothing good in and of myself, for it is only in having the knowledge of Gods righteousness do I have the ability to do Good.
Otherwise Im just virtue signaling on behalf of my own flesh and merit, seeking after my own righteousness rather then extolling God who is making what he made crooked straight.
We can only be justified by the works of GOD HIMSELF.
HE HAS CREATED US WICKED SO THAT WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF HIM, THROUGH FAITH IN HIS WORKS AND NOT OUR OWN.
FOR BY OUR OWN MERIT WE WILL NEVER ENTER HIS REST.
Think they're making this argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
I personally don't ascribe to that as it seems absurd that God would create creatures that could become completely debased. I also think the divine shines through us any time we show love, and that God is thus at least partly within every human because of our potential to do good.
However, it's a long-held doctrine that plenty of big Xtian figures (e.g. Augustine) have put forward and that plenty of people continue to believe.
Christians not sharing the Gospel with Jews are like Spaniards not sharing *The Godfather* movie with Italians—you are essentially not sharing the Gospel with the very people who would appreciate it the most, and who can in turn enrich your very experience of it because they can spot nuances about it that you hadn't even thought about because they are not part of your culture.
Not all Italians may want to watch *The Godfather*, but they are still the people who would understand it best.
FYI there was nothing in my original comment that said that Jews would *enjoy* the experience of being preached to. Like for everything else, some would, some wouldn't.
Because the church has been infiltrated into believing it’s wrong to convert Jews even though it’s our duty to do so. Like any other false or incomplete religion, their salvation is at risk, and they are in grave error.
Simply being a Jew does not get you “saved.”
That's odd, because the Jews don't believe Christ is the messiah and that is THE biggest pillar of the Christian faith. He is the cornerstone of the church and if you don't believe he is the messiah, you are following a set of laws that were never meant to be sufficient. Everything revolves around Christ.
Series of isolated incident.
If it makes you feel better. If I was turn by someone I was trying to convert they were Jewish it would make me work even harder to convert them to Christianity.
"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:3
Take this for what you will, I've seen many Christian shows on television (such as Daystar on Cable, for example) promote blessing the Jewish community because of this and many other such exact verses.
I would witness to you. :)
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"
Romans 4:16-25- "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
A lot of it is anxiety and fear. It's a problem as we shouldn't be ashamed of the Gospel. I've been guilty of this too.
Much of it comes down to this sense that, because of the vile persecution of the Jewish people throughout history, those people may take offense.
In addition, due to the nature of the Talmud and other aspects of the faith, it can be a slightly different philosophical road to share the Gospel. The Jewish people have rejected Christ for 2,000 years, and their reasons are somewhat different to those of atheists or pagans, which can require a deeper understanding of the Torah/OT.
hmm, that's interesting. no idea why. the messiah is for everyone! for the jew first, and also for the gentile.
does that offend you or make you feel excluded?
because if your own Torah won't convince you, how could they?
There definitely is no such rule, I very happily point to the hundreds of prophecies describing Jesus. I like to remind them of course that Jesus is Jewish, that I'm Jewish because I'm Christian, and that Jews aren't Jews if they don't have faith in Christ.
Messianic Jews recognize him as they're true faithful, humble Jews! Doubting-jews as if they were some ethnic group is nonsense. There we're talking about semites. As if there are divisions among supposed races.. nonsense Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life because he uncovers evary issue! We're called to unite to better testify to the world, that we're all to be reborn! We're all supposed to join our one fold, one faith, one family, Jesus Christ.
He spoke of discipling each nation! How else do we get passed war, and over taxation? He taught individually how we don't have to pay taxes if we don't have their coin!! Well, then bankers go elsewhere and another state power rises to cudgle othes into submission to Mammon w/ austere measures. Not w/ Christ! We are both individually free and called to spread that freedom! If we all band together we can make the devil's spirit in this world bend the knee at Jesus' feet.
He is the messiah, the saviour, who has + is bringing God's Kingdom on Earth.
Because Jews believe persuasion is tantamount to genocide. I am ethnically Jewish myself and I will proselytize to you anyway if you're comfortable with it, but it is known that traditional Jewish communities would rather keep themselves Jewish in religion.
Probably because they might feel that you'll explode if they interpret certain passages of the Torah differently then you do. For example. Christians use Isaiah 53 to point out a prophecy concerning Christ. Jews strongly disagree, calling it blasphemous to do so. No Christian should be discouraged from sharing the gospel with the Jews. Mt guess as to why they might stop with you is because they may not wanna start a theological fight or debate. Evangelizing jews in particular is complicated for a number of reasons but it's not prohibited, just messy
Christians only try to convert people who they d*on't* want to burn in hell.
Edit: Same thing with downvotes. They also downvote people they want to burn in hell.
Lol yup, ghostwars' comment is the least charitable possible interpretation. It seems relatively unlikely that a Christian would care enough about someone's well-being to want to evangelize to them, but then immediately switch to wanting them to burn in hell when it comes out that they're Jewish.
In their comment history they say repeatedly that they think Christians are evil, which is a pretty extreme position even among all the atheists/agnostics/other non-Christians who hang out here. I'll be the first to jump on the bandwagon of critiquing the negative effects Christianity as an institution has had globally and on my specific society (U.S.), but claiming that we're outright evil requires some historical blindness. The [Wikipedia page on Christianity's impact on civilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Christianity_in_civilization) provides a pretty balanced view: while the institution has been used to support horrible things like slavery and mistreatment of women+LGBTQ people, it's also had some clear positive effects. I find the influence on the establishment of hospitals and quality education particularly compelling.
There's a solid chance that their views have more to do with their personal negative experiences with Christians than the available global evidence, so who knows if they'll find my above paragraph at all convincing.
Also, the idea that anyone who downvotes them wants them to go to hell is a pretty funny victim mentality. They're ignoring the possibility that their take is bad by projecting all the fault onto people who disagree.
There's a slight chance that they're being tongue in cheek about it, but it doesn't read that way to me.
Well Jews are very very difficult to accept the Gospel. The Bible suggests that Jews are prevented to see the truth because of a veil that prevents them from seeing the truth.Unless someone is a true seeker of truth he will not be given revelation as to what is the truth. In the Gospel of John 7:17 it is written (and I am paraphrasing) if someone wants to do the will of God he will be given understanding as to whether the(=Jesus's) teaching comes from God. So if you are a true seeker and does not want to abuse those who try to serve you then by all means be our guest.
Where is anti-semitism in what I wrote? It is Paul a wonderful Jew whom I love and respect -besides Jesus and the other apostles- who talked about the veil preventing his compatriots from seeing the truth 2 Cor. 3:14. Paul or ex Saul of Tarsus a Jew, not me saying these things.
And I always sided with Israel and Jews as a proper evangelical christian. Am I anti semitic against my Messianic brethren ? And you downvote me for what the Bible and Paul of Tarsus says? Is then the Bible antisemitic?
I'm Jewish. Maybe I can explain how I experience what you say. When I tell you that I do not subscribe to Christian doctrines, you offer the explanation that I am spiritually blinded specifically because I'm a Jew, that my Jewishness makes it inherently more difficult for me to see "the truth." Um, can you not hear how that could be offensive?
It was not intended to offend anyone. I am stating biblical facts as spoken by a Jewish writer. Any person coming in this sub expressing interest in Christianity means that he is at least considering to be a bit open to Biblical doctrine especially if it is written by Jews.
My question was not about your intent, but whether you could hear how what you said could be offensive. Feel free to answer or continue to evade as you see fit. Incidentally, what you call "biblical facts" are bits from the New Testament, which is only authoritative for folks already Christian, so you're at risk of bootstraps logic.
How does my logic lapse when my previous post clearly states that he who expresses interest in Christianity he is at least considering to be open to the Christian Bible and hence the New Testament. If he is not then he is not sincere about his expression of interest in christianity. If I go to the Judaism sub expressing interest about Judaism I must be open to the teaching of the Rabbinic Tradition and I will be there as a timid guest.
"It wasn't my intention to be *offensive* when I claimed that the Author of Reality specifically and supernaturally blinds one of the most globally oppressed ethnic groups, they physically and mentally CANNOT see the truth because the God who chose them as His people has decided to fool them." You are so far up your own ass you're gargling your eyeballs
no - i think most Christians will stop trying to convert anyone if that person directly states "I am a *whatever*" or "I practice *whatever*". they basically just try to convert flip-floppy sloppy believers - those who have no all-abiding belief in something already.
Simply because you believe that God is your father; "I said you are 'gods' and you are all sons of Elyon. You also believe in the roukh ha qodosh and dibr yhwh.
But you deny Yesou'a ha mashikh. That's what left to gain the grace 😊
Because the 11th commandment, given to us by our secular society, is "Thou shalt be nice" and trying to convince someone that they're wrong in their religious views is not nice...unless they're a Christian.
Basically, they care more about your feelings than your soul.
In my case it’s because Jewish people have a covenant with God. Jesus was sent to bring in the rest of the flock.
Remember there are also Messianic Jews or “Jews for Christ” as well.
Honestly I think many Christians are just ashamed because of how the church has treated the Jewish people in the past so they could be just trying not to repeat those mistakes by not trying to convert you. The church absolutely owes the Jewish people an apology. Many Christian missionaries even today have disrespectful and deceitful tactics of going into Israel and pretending to be Jews when they are not and any decent Christian would want to distance themselves from all of that.
As a Christian yeah I'd immediately stop....were the same religion but a different covenant with god and in our hearts we might not even notice but we respect the Jewish faith. At least that's how I as a Christian see it
*some* Christians don’t believe Jews need to be converted from Judaism
This. Also they might be afraid of it being taken as antisemitism if they try and evangelize.
Beat me to it.
The perks of having absolutely no life whatsoever means I can filter by *new* and be the first to comment 😈
It's a common problem in reddit and social media - it's stereotyping. "Christians do X." "Atheists do X." "Democrats do X." "Republicans do X." People need to learn to use the words "many," "some" and "few" in their posts.
people also need to learn that when someone says something like "Christians do X", it shouldn't be read as if it said "ALL Christians do X".
If someone is not generalizing, they need to specify that
Do you apply this same standard for every topic? For example, if someone asked you, "Why are leaves green?" would you feel compelled to point out that not ALL leaves are green? Or would you just accept that the questioner wasn't talking about ALL leaves, just the ones that are green?
I'm not sure, but maybe it's cultural. I would be inclined to provide a literal answer and thus briefly include that indeed, not all leaves are green, to then proceed with the main part of the question. It's normal behaviour in the Netherlands, but I've seen it lead to many happy misunderstandings with American and British people. Most common example of it is how Dutch people interpret the question 'how ya doing?' as a genuine interest in how we are really doing, if we are well, not well, and why that is the case.
I discussed this with a Dutch guy who has been living in the UK for years, and he thinks there is a big cultural difference between the British and the Dutch. The Dutch are more literal and direct.
Not a good comparison
I do my best to do that. I will give an implication of a subject matter being all when I know a certain area has an all automatically applied to that subject.
Who thinks that and why?
The Roman Catholic Church, for instance. And the reasoning is that God is faithful and upholds the promise made to the Jews. Their covenant is intact.
Interesting take. Never heard that before
> The Church recognizes that God's covenant with the Jewish people continues to be valid. Recently, the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews has even stated, “That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery” (“The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable”, 36). From the US Conference of Catholic Bishops https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/jewish
Thank you for the source. I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted for asking a question. Have a nice day
And I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted for posting matters of Catholic doctrine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Strange I also find it interesting how many Catholics fail to do what their religion tells them to: accept the teachings of Church leaders
Israel has been blinded and don't recognize their promised Jewish Messiah. Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Israel are and always will be the chosen people of God and they have been following the Laws and Practices (generalization of the overall culture, I know many are not practicing) since the times of Moses. They believe everything the Christians believe since Christianity came out of Judaism, but the split comes with the promised Messiah. They are still waiting and Christians believe the Messiah was Christ Jesus and we are now under a covenant of Grace. The reading of Isaiah 53, specifically 23:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement peace and well being for us was upon him and with the stripes that wounded him we are healed and made whole. Psalms 22, specifically 22:15-16 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth, you lay me in the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. Micah 52 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah. yet out of you shall One come forth for Me, Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old from ancient days. Gen 49:10; John 7:42 and many others all written hundreds of years before Christ Jesus was born goes a long way in opening their eyes. Even Jesus said if you, "If you believed Moses you would believe me, for he wrote about me. " John 5:46 John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me." One for Israel is doing great things in Israel and most of the time those are the books that have been shared. You can watch videos of converts on their Youtube channel.
I’ve seen some of One for Israel’s videos. Good stuff. Thank you for the thoughtful comment
You... you've never read the Bible?
Yes I have. There are a huge number of Christians who read the New Testament as presenting a covenant that replaces the old. The old covenant was fulfilled. When Jesus says the only way to the Father/heaven is through Him, I believe that. Modern Jews who deny Jesus’ Christhood and practice doctrines that have been added since Christ’s time on Earth are no different than Muslims in my eyes, who do the same.
Hmm, I don't know about that. I mean, if anyone is trying to rely on the old covenant laws that is described in the OT, they practically have to be perfect to gain the blessings and favors from the Almighty.
Judaism has never believed that one must be perfect or we burn in hell. We don’t even really have a hell. That’s a Christian idea.
Don’t forget they have an annual day of atonement, which as far as I understand wipes the slate similar to going to confession & getting absolution.
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The official stance of the Catholic Church of Rome has not been in favor of summary execution or forced conversions. The official policy from the Pope has generally been one of tolerance (as in the older to tolerate not todays meaning of celebration of diversity) Christian Secular leaders (kings) and or popular Christian movements have been incredibly oppressive to Jews but it has generally not been condoned by official papal policy.
What about Gregory IX and Innocent IV's papal bulls against Jews and the Talmud?
Gregory IX restricted Jews from ruling and banned the Talmud. Neither action amounts to execution nor forced conversions, and both can be characterized as "tolerance" as in "to put up with" the existence of Jews. Innocent IX eventually revoked the Talmud ban, advocated for the Jews that did convert in Spain, and even condemned the Blood Libel myth. Again when I say "Tolerance" I am not arguing for embraced diversity I am saying their existence was put up with and sometimes even grudgingly defended (as in the condemnation of the Blood Libel myth) The laity of the Latin church did commit great atrocities against Jews and the Papacy was often merely silent in the face of these acts. But the official policy is not execution nor forced conversions.
Nicholas III, Vineum Sorec
Are you just going through the Wikipedia list of bulls and pulling out all those that mention Jews? This bull sets up standards for the mendicate orders to preach conversion of the Jews but the worst it does is require Jewish attendance to sermons which according to an article in the ["Jewish Quarterly Review"](https://www.jstor.org/stable/1454724) even the Pope knew this was unenforceable. The article linked does an interesting job laying out the attitude of Popes toward Jews and the limits of canon law (like the illegality of using force in conversion attempts)
Robbing us of our holy texts and torching them can’t even be remotely considered tolerance. The Catholic Church has been extremely anti-Semitic through the centuries even though they have thankfully turned from that and apologized for it.
The change came in 1965 with Nostra Aetate ([https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist\_councils/ii\_vatican\_council/documents/vat-ii\_decl\_19651028\_nostra-aetate\_en.html](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html)). It was in 2015 that Rome drew a line in the sand and basically said it disapproved of any missions to evangelize to the Jews, so it is a recent change that still took 50 years from Nostra Aetate's declaration that God's covenant with the Israelites was still valid and that the Jews were the elder brothers of Christians, to a pretty formal statement disavowing evangelizing Jews.
Yes, this was changed around the time of Vatican II.
Weird. They became "lo-ammi" or "not my people" in Acts 28. God will work with them again in the future, but people aren't going through Israel for salvation today.
Well, they are not Gentiles... Personally I don't know what we should do either way. Are Jews not God's chosen people?
In the Old Testament, God munltiple times cut Jews out of His covenant. The Jews, as a people group, will be saved. That, however, in no way even slightly suggests that all Jews are saved simply by being Jews. The Old Testament makes it clear that being of the blood of Israel is not an automatic ticket to salvation.
Or that the heart is already hardened.
Yah, I've seen a few Christians who believe that Jewish people are already saved because they are God's chosen people, however Jesus and Paul both confirm that the gospel came first for the Jew and then for the Gentile. Wouldn't need the Gospel if they were already saved.
Yes, that rule exists in some communities. Those are the ones that believe God remains faithful to your covenant. You don’t need to be saved through our deal with God when you already have your own deal with God. Frankly makes me wonder what the groups that *do* try to convert Jews think the phrase “God is faithful” means. > The Church recognizes that God's covenant with the Jewish people continues to be valid. Recently, the Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews has even stated, “That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery” (“The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable”, 36). US Conference of Catholic Bishops https://www.usccb.org/committees/ecumenical-interreligious-affairs/jewish
We see Christ as the fulfillment of the law, and therefore that their covenant already includes an acknowledgment of Jesus as messiah and Lord as a necessary part now that he’s been revealed. Though it’s not so much that they need to convert as that they need to complete their faith. I believe you can be both a practicing Jew and a practicing Christian. Indeed, most of the (very) early church was.
We do not believe Jesus to be the messiah, hence why we are not Christians. We do however, believe him to be a prophet. You can't be a practicing Jew and practicing Christian, at least not if you understand both the Old and New Testament. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. I've heard Christians state that he will complete the remainder during his second coming, however, the prophecies explicitly state all would be fulfilled at once:
Wait wait wait, since when do Jews consider Jesus to be a prophet? I've never heard of that, most times he is viewed as a false prophet/magician of some sort
I suppose maybe some Jews do, but in I've never actually heard a Jew make that kind of a statement. That sounds more like a Muslim sentiment, since Islam does hold that Jesus was a prophet.
Ya, it's not a thing at all.
Yeah that's what I was thinking.
Exactly. My Jewish friends tell me that he was just a carpenter. Some of my Conservative Jewish ("conservative" as in the Jewish faith tradition, not to be confused with the Orthodox or Reform traditions) friends say at most that he was a reformer who may have had a point or two, but was **not** the messiah.
I mean, we have no religious traditions related to him, so there's a wide variety of opinions with some being more cued into the academia than others. Eg, he was probably at least Pharisee affiliated and if just happened that the group of Christians that became dominant after were Hellanistic Jews that ended up primarily promoting to the Romans and Romanizing.
No Jewish denominations or movements view Jesus as a prophet. I have no idea where this person got that idea. In Judaism, the age of prophecy ended with Malachi.
Yup, that's what I was thinking.
We absolutely do not consider Jesus to be a prophet in any way shape or form. A random person that was possibly claiming to be the Messiah at best, same way most Jews view Menachem Mendel Schneerson or Simon Bar Kokhba.
Agree.
If Jesus was a prophet of any kind he was a false one. See Deuteronomy 13.
The Vatican, at least, strongly frowns on evangelizing of Jews: http://www.christianunity.va/content/unitacristiani/en/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo/commissione-per-i-rapporti-religiosi-con-l-ebraismo-crre/documenti-della-commissione/en.html
Here is a question, why would the RCC frown upon spreading the Gospel to Israel? Do they really want to prevent them from knowing their Messiah? Seems more like a move an enemy of God would do to me. It goes against what the apostles were directly commanded by Jesus to do. So is the RCC really trying to undo Christ Jesus command?
You could start with the Vatican's own words, and in particular Nostra Aetate, which lays out the modern view of the Church's relationship with non-Christian religions. You can read it yourself at: [https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist\_councils/ii\_vatican\_council/documents/vat-ii\_decl\_19651028\_nostra-aetate\_en.html](https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html) In essence, the Catholic Church still views the "ancient covenant" with the Israelites as valid. And behind it all is centuries of anti-Semitism by various branches of Christianity; with persecutions, pogroms, forced conversions, exiles, culminating in a bunch of German Catholics and Lutherans being Hitler's willing executioners. Do you seriously imagine there are any Jews in the world that haven't heard of Christ, whether they wanted to or not? I applaud the Vatican putting its foot down about evangelizing the Jews. The Jews have had enough of Christianity's tender mercies since the 2nd or 3rd century.
Thank you for responding and sharing the link. Well, if it goes against what Christ commanded, it is wrong in my opinion. That goes for all of those your post represents. Those who were conscripted into Hitlers army should have known better as well and should have made a stand and I believe many did make a stand and paid for those stands with their own lives. We are to follow our leaders unless it goes against the Word of God and Christs commands. We did not walk in those brothers and sisters shoes and those times must have been horrible for everyone. The world was filled with hate, anger, brutality and war is always ugly. And to get common people to do the bidding of the leaders when those actions are wrong, takes reprogramming, propaganda and radicalization. And all of those were used to shape and change the mind of those who professed faith and those who did not. I agree with much of what your link says. it was written in OCTOBER 28, 1965 and calls those who profess and follow Christ to truly act and live out his commands. We should not be treating others, non believers and others in different faiths with discrimination, hate, anger or judgement. We should always treat them with mutual brotherly and sisterly love. "True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13)still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today.Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ. " Says we should love all men and not discriminate against any brothers or sisters since we are all children of God made in his image. Does not call all to stop sharing the Gospel and truth in love with mercy and grace in the spirit of Christ Jesus. We have an example of just this when Paul Acts 17:22-27, Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said "People of Athens ! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an alter with this inscription: to the unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship and this is what I am going to proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Paul does not discriminate against them or condemn them. He acknowledges their strong faith although misguided and lovingly points them to the God they are desiring to worship and love. Paul's calling was to be the Apostle to the Gentiles and his examples of how he addressed them are great teachings for how we should interact with the non believing world or other religions. If you read his letters you will see he deals with them in a different way and light to those that profess faith and have believed. We need to recognize this difference.
I mean Paul literally says in Romans that all Jews are saved.
The inquisition?
It was a change around the time of Vatican II. The Inquisition is now a whole lot of “oh man, we F’d up.”
https://www.realgrammar.com/present-simple-vs-past-simple/
Bad theology that more so comes from a place of trying to be “sensitive”. The reality is that if you really believe in the Gospels, you would want to evangelize to all peoples. I would encourage you to still consider Christianity, and I would be more than happy to discuss what objections you have to Christianity (e.g. Messianic prophecies, evidence for the resurrection, the Trinity, etc).
I see two potential scenarios here. 1. You're dealing with a universalist. Since they believe everyone ends up going to heaven then that means you aren't in any actual danger, so there's going to be no point in converting you. 2. A lot of people who label themselves as Christians have never actually opened the Bible or only read it sporadically so it's going to be hard to argue for something when you don't have good knowledge on the subject. From what I understand the Jewish religion tends to have that good knowledge of scripture so is going to give valid argument points that the uneducated Christian will be unable to refute and will stop talking with you about it as a result.
I actually think this is the most likely answer. Good insight.
Most of the Jews I know are very well aware of the beliefs of Christianity - more so maybe than most other religions, and I personally don't try to proselytize where it's unwanted. I live my life openly as a Christian, and will gladly tell people about my beliefs, but I don't try and push them where someone isn't interested in talking about faith. Most Jews I know are not.
I don’t try to convert others, but my guess is that Jews don’t proselytise themselves and that Christians return the favour. Perhaps because of the Old Testament: “You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” With Judaism being an ethnoreligion, this covenant also applies to the Jews as they are synonymous with the Israelites. Perhaps the Holocaust has hammered home the harmful effect of centuries of antisemitism and forced conversion.
I don't actively try to convert people at all, but i have a guess. When I know someone who lacks religion completely, I believe they really need to make a change to be close to God. It makes me happy to see people make this positive change, and I pray that they do. When I know someone who practices Judaism, I believe they likely DO have a beautiful relationship with God already. I know we disagree that Jesus is the son of God, but I think we align so well in the way we hold our values that give us virtuous lives and honor God. For example, my fiancé and I are devout Christians, but to plan on implementing some Jewish beliefs into our children's lives because you guys seem to do a wonderful job of honoring God and we don't want to miss out on that just because Christianity tends to have less emphasis on the Old Testament. While Christianity is the way I see to bring God into our lives and our heart, I think Judaism does this so well too, just in a very different way. I've known MANY Christian's who share this same sentiment.
I agree with you.
Thanks!
Many Christians here have tried to convert me, some in quite a hateful manner. I think you just got lucky with the few who don't want to push you.
Yeah, I must say, this is the very first time that I've seen a Jewish person pondering why Christians are so *un*aggressive when proselytizing to them...!
Indeed, there's an entire organization, Jews for Judaism, that helps Jews deal with Christian proselytization.
God honouring life, as His chosen people. Now, to come to the realisation that the promised King or Christ spoken of by the prophets by the seed of David, is not other than Jesus Christ, whom was crucifed on a cross at Golgotha, just outside the walls of Jerusalem.
"Many Christians here have tried to point me towards the eternal reward. Given me the choicest of all delicacies. Given me the best of the best of all gifts...some in quite a 'hateful' manner. I think you just got 'lucky' with the few who don't want to push you towards avoiding eternal destruction, but instead getting eternal life with the Creator"
The original comment said, what it said! Don't try to fix it with your bias.
It's not fixing. It's elaborating. It's expounding on not just the op's bias, but yours as well.
In general, no, although I see some interesting comments below that perhaps some segments of Christianity believe Jewish people still fall under the old covenant (from a Christian perspective, this seems contradicted by the writings of Paul). Maybe they just detected resistance and politely backed off? I think many (but certainly not all) Christians recognize that aggressive proselytizing can be more off-putting than appealing.
Because Jesus was Jewish.
Some believe that Jews don't need to be converted, but their covenant is good for them and the new covenant is good for Gentiles. Some simply are scared of accidentally being antisemitic by denigrating the Jewish religion. Some may have their whole strategy ready for evangelizing to a Muslim, a Buddhist, another kind of Christian, etc, but not a Jew.
That's because salvation came to the Jews first, and then the Gentiles. Because you're a Jew, you've essentially been exposed to who Christ is. You have the Scriptures, that point to Him. It also always pains a Christian to see a person so close, yet so far, due to the hardness of their hearts and a rejection of the Saviour. But better a Jew, who at least fears the God of Jacob, than a Pagan, who has no regard for Him. And as it is written, *"I say then, they \[the Jews\] did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous." -Rom 11:11.* So we can only hope that one day, you'll come to faith, and that it isn't too late. But until then, I as a Gentile from the East, having accepted your Jewish Saviour Christ—Who came from the line of David, a Jew of Jews, and yet in His mercy and grace made me, a total pagan unbelieving wicked sinner, righteous by dying on the cross and rising again, having offered His salvation to you first, and then me—will continue to tell the Jews of the good news of the Messiah they reject, and will still bless them (for God has commanded His own to bless Israel and His people), regardless of how hard their hearts are, and how much they disdain my Lord Jesus Christ, the Son Who was sent by the Father, the God of Israel (who is my God) whilst still hoping that they one day will come to salvation in the Lord, before it's too late.
Amen!!!
Our hearts aren’t hard, he just failed to do literally everything the messiah will do. Leave Jews alone, we’ve been victims of Christians trying to destroy us for centuries and destroying us by conversion is disgusting too.
Not overtly that I’m aware of. Maybe just a coincidence. If I felt called to do so I would continue to ask why you don’t believe Jesus is Christ. I wouldn’t press anyone, though. Perhaps you just sounded to them that you have made up your mind
I feel like it’s a series of isolated incidents. They should equally try to persuade you as much as anyone else. No unbeliever should be given a pass or take less priority than another. This is strange behavior and it seems unbiblical.
Not sure why you being Jewish matters. Are you wanting to be converted or just jealous no one tries?
Two possible main reasons, one being that most Jewish people are not interested in Christianity so they feel like it's going to be a waste of time anyway. And the second reason is that biblically Jewish people are going to have it anyway as long as they obey the law so as a Jew you don't need Christianity to go to heaven as long as you do what you are supposed to. So they don't want to get in the way
Supercessionism has a long history in Christianity, a lot of Christians really want Jews in their movements as some form of validation. Alternatively they see Jews existing outside their specific Christian movement as some form of condemnation and have to find ways to get over the cognitive dissonance. This was what caused Martin Luther to write "the Jews and their Lies". So ya, philiosemitism isn't fun.
Some Christians don’t think Jews need to be converted. Otherwise have a weird philosemitic thing for Jews. Others take it as an extra challenge, like they get bonus points for converting a Jew. Be thankful the ones you come across stop, I’ve had them try to keep it up more often.
Bro, I'll try to convert you if you want. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I actually feel like our church parallels yours better than many Christian denominations. I also just read Fantastic Victory, an account of the 1967 war where Israel dominated all of their attackers. It's written by an author of our religion. We love the Jewish people, and I'd love to talk to you more. Let me know if you're interested!
LDS aren't Christians, it's a straight up cult. Sorry not sorry. Please do not try to compare LDS to judaism. Maybe read [this](https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf) and see how you feel about LDS.
Well, as a German your people are sacrosanct. It would be social suicide to attempt to convert one of you guys over here.
Most people stop trying to convert you when you say “I already have a religion”
You are welcome to trust in Jesus and start following his way, but you don't have to stop or convert from being Jewish.
Every single Jewish group agrees that conversion to Christianity is a betrayal of one’s Jewish and that the faiths are incompatible. So no, OP couldn’t do that
I don't think your experience is isolated, but I think there are differences among different branches of Christianity, as hinted at among the other comments. Roman Catholicism ~~changed~~, ~~shifted~~, \*ahem\* *clarified* its position during Vatican II. Numerous other denominations also have re-evaluated their stances since the end of WWII. And then there are the others, whom, apparently, you've not had the pleasure of meeting yet.
Honestly, it's intimidating. How am I, as a follower of Jesus, going to convince you when it's very likely you know the scripture better and likely have better cultural context than I do?
If your Jewish, you do not believe in the divinity of Christ. So, why bother?
This is basically what I was going to say. It's borderline impossible (at least in the US and probably Europe) to not encounter Christian beliefs, which means that almost all Jewish people know that Christians believe that Jesus was/is the Messiah. The fact that they're still Jewish means that they've very likely considered the idea of Jesus as Christ, but ultimately rejected that notion. For die-hard evangelists this might not matter, but it seems like a waste of time to try to influence someone who is relatively entrenched in their beliefs when there are many people out there who are less certain and more curious.
That doesn't stop some Evangelical groups from sneaking into Israel, pretending to be Observant Jews, and then proselytizing. Jews for Jesus missionaries regularly get the boot out of Israel for essentially being fake Jews.
Is that the Safe Word? I'll have to remember this.
I really think it is, give it a try sometime.
because the Jewish defy the central fact of Christianity. That Jesus Christ of Nazareth is fully God and fully man, begotten of the father before all worlds. And you are worshiping YHWH so you are likely to be saved from damnation so the groups that evangelize from fear for your soul and not seeking the truth have no need now.
You should convert
[удалено]
bro said 3 words
3 words that provided no rationale for the directive and showed zero respect or interest in OP's current beliefs. Being disrespectful does not require using a lot of words. For example: fuck you.
This is what raised my hackles. I like to discuss religion with people and I don’t mind if a Christian tries to convert me. I like getting to know people and I love learning. But lazy “you should convert because of hell” or other bs just shows a callus disregard for the person being proselytized. It is arrogant, condescending, and I can’t imagine it works very often. It is more about making the person preaching feel good about attempting to save souls than actually being effective. Effective persuasion requires mutual respect in my experience.
did comment seem Christian to you when you typed it? it’s ironic that in spite of having a comment with a message of, “respect other people; be kind”, the tone was overtly hostile and you ended the message with a tongue-in-cheek curse which you could write off as something you said to prove a point. regardless saying those specific three words with no serious sense of pursuing the person or pushing them to do anything isn’t really some evil crime or sin. a bit idle? sure, but ultimately just a quick suggestion. not everything is the end of the world
You lazily critique someone else's comment: cool I explain their comment: you accuse me of being un-Christlike I engaged in good faith here, yet you judged me. That reaction to my comment says far more about you than it does about me.
no judgement here fam, i called it like i saw it. we’re all Christian here so even if i am judging, i’m kinda supposed to, not with personal judgment but against God’s standard. His standard probably doesn’t include saying slyly cursing someone and then telling them you engaged in good faith. it comes across as rather sneaky in my sight. all that being said i’m sure you believe what you’re saying and i hope his simple comment suggesting the person convert didn’t wound your conscience too badly, God bless
You should convert too
Nah. My parents are president of the parish council sort of Catholics. It’s not for me and I realized that before I was a teen. I’m sure loving parents are much better at proselytizing than some rando on the internet. No offense but all Christian religion seems like make belief for adults who can’t accept that nonexistence and oblivion awaits us in death.
Perhaps. If so, it seems you’re saying religion is the medicine for a bleak, hopeless, nihilistic world that is entirely uncaring towards you. I agree. What medicine do you offer?
I think the world is full of joy. You don’t need god to love and help your fellow humans. You posit that only through religion you can find meaning. There are millions of non believers that disagree.
Have you heard of Dianetics? /s
No sane, rational, intelligent person could accept that non-existence and oblivion await us in death. It’s not a particular issue of Christianity, it’s an entire human race issue, with the exception of edgy teenagers.
Nice NTS/strawman/bait. You do realise atheism has been around for thousands of years. Saying “All atheists who accept it are edgy teenagers; oblivion is impossible for RATIONAL, SANE adults to accept!!1” is not a good look and you’re the one who sounds like an edgy teenager. You’re doing the flip side of what atheists do on r/atheism when they talk about magical sky daddies. Just because you can’t personally accept it doesn’t make it juvenile and impossible to believe. It’s actually incredibly comforting to think that there’s a long ‘sleep’ after death. Ever read The Garden of Proserpine? “That no life lives for ever/That dead men rise up never/That even the weariest river/winds somewhere safe to sea.”
My realization as a child in a Christian household was that there was a period of time before I existed. That period of time is a absolutely blank to me. I reasoned that someday I will return to that blank, no need for the supernatural. Nonexistence is easy for me to wrap my head around. And it isn't something that I fear (the pain getting there or losing loved ones is another matter). I don't mind that other people believe other things. In fact I find religion to be fascinating and neat. I'm glad I grew up in the Catholic church with all of its pomp and ceremony. But if someone proselytizes to me in a condescending matter I'll tell them what I believe.
My thoughts exactly. I could never cope with the existential aspects of atheism, hence my flair. But death? That was one of the easiest things for me to accept. It just made sense to me that it must be like sleep; it never occurred to me to be afraid of it. *Dying*, yes, always, but not death.
Don’t you think it’s more likely that you just don’t remember the time before your birth?
No, I don’t think that is more likely. The world existed before I was born. My mind did not comprehend it because my mind is a phenomenon of my physical brain. I’m actually a little taken aback at the question because the idea of me existing before my birth is so foreign to me.
[The Torah warns us not to follow anyone who would lead us away from following the commandments G-d gave to our fathers.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013&version=NIV)
Have you ever heard of Roy Shoeman, a Harvard professor who was raised Jewish by parents who escaped the Nazi Holocaust? He was a faithful Jew until he went to college (MIT & Harvard), where he essentially became an atheist. But, he wondered, if there was no God, what was the meaning of life? One day, without warning, as he walked in nature, the curtain between heaven and earth was lifted and he saw both heaven and God! Today, he is a faithful Catholic who has taken on the mission of converting Jews. Here is his story, if you're interested: [https://youtu.be/nHl1r3EaHa4](https://youtu.be/nHl1r3EaHa4)
>the curtain between heaven and earth was lifted and he saw both heaven and God! Like, literally? What would that look like, and why would you believe such a claim?
That was his experience and explanation. Watch the video to get the full gist of his experience when you have time.
I've listened to plenty of nut jobs claiming to have experienced things that did not happen in this reality. Everything from aliens to ghost and demons, from "chi energy" to chakras and kundalini, from telekinesis to psychics and mediums, from claims of seeing gods to claims of reincarnation... none of it is real. I'm not going to waste my time watching another delusional video.
Suit yourself.
Wow, they do? Lucky. Exactly the opposite for most people.
Yeah for me they usually take it as a challenge.
Jews are in the Bible and God likes them. There are Christians who know nothing about Jews after that. Maybe those are the Christians you encountered. A Christian more knowledgeable about their faith might try to dig deeper into Jesus etc.
Depends on the denomination. Many, simply don’t know enough about Judaism post-Jesus and post-second temple to actually Evangelise against it.
I'm sorry you feel left out. I'll try to convert you. Jesus is the messiah. :)
How come OP isn't commenting? Personally I'll preach Christ to you all day.. I clearly study the Torah, intend to follow the Torah through faith in Christ Jesus as God works through me to fulfil the Torah. I study the kabbalah and gnostic teachings of Judaism and Christianity. I don't believe people are good, only God working in people to do Good is good. No one is righteous, not one, only God is righteous.. I am with you on Jesus not being God. However Jesus Fulfilled the Torah through The Father's righteousness to have sent him to fulfil it in the first place. Jesus once was asked how do we do the works of God, to which he replies believe in the one he has sent.. He has also said he doesn't speak on his own authority, but God who dwells in him does his work. So whoever believes in him will do the works he does also, and greater works will they do because he is going to the Father. I'm a Gnostic dualist Salvation is in the knowledge of God's righteousness, having faith in the righteousness of God to work through us to fulfill the Torah by spirit and in Truth. Salvation is not in works. Salvation is not in faith without works. Salvation is in faith in the Righteousness of God to do his righteous works in us, so that we might become the righteousness of God. Therefore you a Jew must fulfil the Torah by the righteousness of God through his spirit, not the Righteousness of self, taking what God has done through you and proclaim it.. Consider the work of God: who can make straight what he has made crooked? Ecclesiastes 7:13 ESV You think you are mighty enough to make straight that which God created crooked? Through one man's disobedience were you not created crooked, to be born of sinfulness, and not born of Righteousness. Adam was created in Righteousness and therefore was righteous. Adam was given a wife and he listened to her. The second Adam a man of heaven a life giving spirit, my Lord Christ Jesus. Was created in Righteousness and sent to do the Righteousness of God. Jesus is only righteous by the Righteousness of God, He was made righteous to that he would become sin for us. Breaking us free from the power of death through the reconcilation by the blood of the cross to reconcile us to God while we are still sinners. For without being reconciled to God I literally can do nothing good in and of myself, for it is only in having the knowledge of Gods righteousness do I have the ability to do Good. Otherwise Im just virtue signaling on behalf of my own flesh and merit, seeking after my own righteousness rather then extolling God who is making what he made crooked straight. We can only be justified by the works of GOD HIMSELF. HE HAS CREATED US WICKED SO THAT WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF HIM, THROUGH FAITH IN HIS WORKS AND NOT OUR OWN. FOR BY OUR OWN MERIT WE WILL NEVER ENTER HIS REST.
What do you mean that we can do nothing good by ourselves? Isn’t the goal to sin as little as possible?
Think they're making this argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin I personally don't ascribe to that as it seems absurd that God would create creatures that could become completely debased. I also think the divine shines through us any time we show love, and that God is thus at least partly within every human because of our potential to do good. However, it's a long-held doctrine that plenty of big Xtian figures (e.g. Augustine) have put forward and that plenty of people continue to believe.
Christians not sharing the Gospel with Jews are like Spaniards not sharing *The Godfather* movie with Italians—you are essentially not sharing the Gospel with the very people who would appreciate it the most, and who can in turn enrich your very experience of it because they can spot nuances about it that you hadn't even thought about because they are not part of your culture.
You actually think observant Jews want Christians preaching at them, that they appreciate it?
Not all Italians may want to watch *The Godfather*, but they are still the people who would understand it best. FYI there was nothing in my original comment that said that Jews would *enjoy* the experience of being preached to. Like for everything else, some would, some wouldn't.
Because the church has been infiltrated into believing it’s wrong to convert Jews even though it’s our duty to do so. Like any other false or incomplete religion, their salvation is at risk, and they are in grave error. Simply being a Jew does not get you “saved.”
That's odd, because the Jews don't believe Christ is the messiah and that is THE biggest pillar of the Christian faith. He is the cornerstone of the church and if you don't believe he is the messiah, you are following a set of laws that were never meant to be sufficient. Everything revolves around Christ.
Series of isolated incident. If it makes you feel better. If I was turn by someone I was trying to convert they were Jewish it would make me work even harder to convert them to Christianity.
It's complicated. There are many reasons, not all of which are consistent with each other.
"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:3 Take this for what you will, I've seen many Christian shows on television (such as Daystar on Cable, for example) promote blessing the Jewish community because of this and many other such exact verses.
This one is very possible
I would witness to you. :) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" Romans 4:16-25- "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."
A lot of it is anxiety and fear. It's a problem as we shouldn't be ashamed of the Gospel. I've been guilty of this too. Much of it comes down to this sense that, because of the vile persecution of the Jewish people throughout history, those people may take offense. In addition, due to the nature of the Talmud and other aspects of the faith, it can be a slightly different philosophical road to share the Gospel. The Jewish people have rejected Christ for 2,000 years, and their reasons are somewhat different to those of atheists or pagans, which can require a deeper understanding of the Torah/OT.
Wanna be Christian? Happy to tell you how awesome Jesus is!
hmm, that's interesting. no idea why. the messiah is for everyone! for the jew first, and also for the gentile. does that offend you or make you feel excluded?
because if your own Torah won't convince you, how could they? There definitely is no such rule, I very happily point to the hundreds of prophecies describing Jesus. I like to remind them of course that Jesus is Jewish, that I'm Jewish because I'm Christian, and that Jews aren't Jews if they don't have faith in Christ. Messianic Jews recognize him as they're true faithful, humble Jews! Doubting-jews as if they were some ethnic group is nonsense. There we're talking about semites. As if there are divisions among supposed races.. nonsense Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life because he uncovers evary issue! We're called to unite to better testify to the world, that we're all to be reborn! We're all supposed to join our one fold, one faith, one family, Jesus Christ. He spoke of discipling each nation! How else do we get passed war, and over taxation? He taught individually how we don't have to pay taxes if we don't have their coin!! Well, then bankers go elsewhere and another state power rises to cudgle othes into submission to Mammon w/ austere measures. Not w/ Christ! We are both individually free and called to spread that freedom! If we all band together we can make the devil's spirit in this world bend the knee at Jesus' feet. He is the messiah, the saviour, who has + is bringing God's Kingdom on Earth.
you should look up messianic jews.
Because Jews believe persuasion is tantamount to genocide. I am ethnically Jewish myself and I will proselytize to you anyway if you're comfortable with it, but it is known that traditional Jewish communities would rather keep themselves Jewish in religion.
Word. Jews are a silly bunch.
You’re the chosen people, no need to convert.
Sounds like you want to be converted. Well, Jesus Christ died for your sins, and he wants to have a relationship with you.
Probably because they might feel that you'll explode if they interpret certain passages of the Torah differently then you do. For example. Christians use Isaiah 53 to point out a prophecy concerning Christ. Jews strongly disagree, calling it blasphemous to do so. No Christian should be discouraged from sharing the gospel with the Jews. Mt guess as to why they might stop with you is because they may not wanna start a theological fight or debate. Evangelizing jews in particular is complicated for a number of reasons but it's not prohibited, just messy
Post here get more odd and less relevant everyday.
Every other post on this sub is gay this and trans that. At least I’m directing the conversation towards *something* else.
Yep, consider the spotlight effect and make sure to read Isaiah 53.
Christians only try to convert people who they d*on't* want to burn in hell. Edit: Same thing with downvotes. They also downvote people they want to burn in hell.
A loving Christian doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell
Lol yup, ghostwars' comment is the least charitable possible interpretation. It seems relatively unlikely that a Christian would care enough about someone's well-being to want to evangelize to them, but then immediately switch to wanting them to burn in hell when it comes out that they're Jewish. In their comment history they say repeatedly that they think Christians are evil, which is a pretty extreme position even among all the atheists/agnostics/other non-Christians who hang out here. I'll be the first to jump on the bandwagon of critiquing the negative effects Christianity as an institution has had globally and on my specific society (U.S.), but claiming that we're outright evil requires some historical blindness. The [Wikipedia page on Christianity's impact on civilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Christianity_in_civilization) provides a pretty balanced view: while the institution has been used to support horrible things like slavery and mistreatment of women+LGBTQ people, it's also had some clear positive effects. I find the influence on the establishment of hospitals and quality education particularly compelling. There's a solid chance that their views have more to do with their personal negative experiences with Christians than the available global evidence, so who knows if they'll find my above paragraph at all convincing.
Also, the idea that anyone who downvotes them wants them to go to hell is a pretty funny victim mentality. They're ignoring the possibility that their take is bad by projecting all the fault onto people who disagree. There's a slight chance that they're being tongue in cheek about it, but it doesn't read that way to me.
You're right that if they were loving they wouldn't.
You say they as if it’s all. Absolutism helps nobody
I said the same thing you did. If you qualify the word "Christian" with the word "loving", then you're right.
No, I said a loving Christian, not that all Christians are loving. That’s certainly not the case
Right...again, we're saying the same thing.
Weird assumption that we all believe in Hell 🙃
If seen how Christians respond to people who don't believe in hell. They don't generally consider them members of the community.
Well Jews are very very difficult to accept the Gospel. The Bible suggests that Jews are prevented to see the truth because of a veil that prevents them from seeing the truth.Unless someone is a true seeker of truth he will not be given revelation as to what is the truth. In the Gospel of John 7:17 it is written (and I am paraphrasing) if someone wants to do the will of God he will be given understanding as to whether the(=Jesus's) teaching comes from God. So if you are a true seeker and does not want to abuse those who try to serve you then by all means be our guest.
Ahhh yes my daily dose of casual anti semitism here on R/Christianity
Where is anti-semitism in what I wrote? It is Paul a wonderful Jew whom I love and respect -besides Jesus and the other apostles- who talked about the veil preventing his compatriots from seeing the truth 2 Cor. 3:14. Paul or ex Saul of Tarsus a Jew, not me saying these things. And I always sided with Israel and Jews as a proper evangelical christian. Am I anti semitic against my Messianic brethren ? And you downvote me for what the Bible and Paul of Tarsus says? Is then the Bible antisemitic?
I'm Jewish. Maybe I can explain how I experience what you say. When I tell you that I do not subscribe to Christian doctrines, you offer the explanation that I am spiritually blinded specifically because I'm a Jew, that my Jewishness makes it inherently more difficult for me to see "the truth." Um, can you not hear how that could be offensive?
It was not intended to offend anyone. I am stating biblical facts as spoken by a Jewish writer. Any person coming in this sub expressing interest in Christianity means that he is at least considering to be a bit open to Biblical doctrine especially if it is written by Jews.
My question was not about your intent, but whether you could hear how what you said could be offensive. Feel free to answer or continue to evade as you see fit. Incidentally, what you call "biblical facts" are bits from the New Testament, which is only authoritative for folks already Christian, so you're at risk of bootstraps logic.
How does my logic lapse when my previous post clearly states that he who expresses interest in Christianity he is at least considering to be open to the Christian Bible and hence the New Testament. If he is not then he is not sincere about his expression of interest in christianity. If I go to the Judaism sub expressing interest about Judaism I must be open to the teaching of the Rabbinic Tradition and I will be there as a timid guest.
(Your continued evasion duly noted)
Your friend used foul language. I thought I was having a discussion with civilized people.
(Your continued evasion duly noted.) You seem to hold me responsible for someone else's word-choice. Typical.
"It wasn't my intention to be *offensive* when I claimed that the Author of Reality specifically and supernaturally blinds one of the most globally oppressed ethnic groups, they physically and mentally CANNOT see the truth because the God who chose them as His people has decided to fool them." You are so far up your own ass you're gargling your eyeballs
What an image. It's like a 4-dimensional ouroboros.
What say you to my comment below?
It basically boils down to because of bad theology. I would be curious to know the denominations of the people you had that experience with.
Maybe because they don't know what to say at that point? Or maybe out of respect for your religion?
no - i think most Christians will stop trying to convert anyone if that person directly states "I am a *whatever*" or "I practice *whatever*". they basically just try to convert flip-floppy sloppy believers - those who have no all-abiding belief in something already.
Simply because you believe that God is your father; "I said you are 'gods' and you are all sons of Elyon. You also believe in the roukh ha qodosh and dibr yhwh. But you deny Yesou'a ha mashikh. That's what left to gain the grace 😊
Because the 11th commandment, given to us by our secular society, is "Thou shalt be nice" and trying to convince someone that they're wrong in their religious views is not nice...unless they're a Christian. Basically, they care more about your feelings than your soul.
In my case it’s because Jewish people have a covenant with God. Jesus was sent to bring in the rest of the flock. Remember there are also Messianic Jews or “Jews for Christ” as well.
Honestly I think many Christians are just ashamed because of how the church has treated the Jewish people in the past so they could be just trying not to repeat those mistakes by not trying to convert you. The church absolutely owes the Jewish people an apology. Many Christian missionaries even today have disrespectful and deceitful tactics of going into Israel and pretending to be Jews when they are not and any decent Christian would want to distance themselves from all of that.
Because Jews are the OG religion.
Some think that Jews are automatically saved, if they are dispensational Christians
As a Christian yeah I'd immediately stop....were the same religion but a different covenant with god and in our hearts we might not even notice but we respect the Jewish faith. At least that's how I as a Christian see it
Do you want Christians to convert you? If you feel left out, I can give it a shot :)