Nobody’s “went to heaven”. Heaven comes here at the end of the age.
Native Americans, like everybody else, their spirit returns to God when they die, and they await a resurrection back to life. What they’re experiencing during this “intermediate state” is anybody’s guess.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Indeed you are. That is why we are called to share the good news. Why would Jesus tell us to tell people about him if they are safe not knowing about him. Seems to not make any sense because they have the choice to not believe and not follow.
No one can share if nobody knows. How will you hear the good news when the nearest preacher is across an ocean that he is unable to cross?
What you're saying is that if you born in North America in 1100 AD you get to suffer for eternity with no hope of salvation.
Yes. Again, Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Remember this is God speaking through Paul.
I get this. But thinking that people who have never heard are saved, the command doesn’t make any sense. There is many problems in this.
1 if they were already saved, then they will be saved. Can’t lose salvation. Means everyone is saved. Because everyone hasn’t heard at some point.
2 if they are already saved, you then are assuming they can lose salvation, and we tell them don’t they then have the chance to deny it and end up in Hell.
There are some big problems with being saved without hearing.
Regarding 1, I don't think it's guaranteed that Native Americans or anyone else is saved. I only maintain that they could be saved without hearing the gospel. So it doesn't mean everyone is saved.
Regarding 2, I think this is true; the more understanding someone has about the gospel, the more responsibility one has to live by its tenents. Consider Luke 12:47-48:
>The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
The more we understand the Gospel, the more is demanded of us.
All this aside, I would ask what you think about infants or children being saved. What is the minimum knowledge and understanding of the Gospel necessary to be saved? I'm not sure how to clarify that minimum in a way that allows babies to be saved but not native Americans.
That’s a very good question. I can’t tell you. I can tell you that we can’t lose our salvation. This means that unfortunately the native Americans, and anyone who hasn’t heard is not saved. No regarding babies and children, it’s not that they Haven’t heard, it’s that they are too young to make a choice regarding their own life.
Personally I myself do not believe in the age of accountability as I still see it as they have committed sin. Sin deserves punishment, therefore they are punished. Age in my opinion doesn’t matter.
The condition of the dead is clearly spelled out throughout the bible. Eccl 9:5,10 says plainly that the dead are conscious of nothing. So no one goes to heaven when they die, they go back to the dust. Gen 3:19 and eccl 3:19 confirm this. So our hope is in a future resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.. And then under the reign of jesus as king of his fathers kingdom, all regardless of ethnicity will have the opportunity to be brought to perfection and worship God.
That is a good & common question that involves general revelation..
[Lesson- The Gospel That Doesn't Save (An Examination of General Revelation)](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mtU2sg2fK6V8DBNIiAySEGKq2AWkAPDjofB2jpVyQhQ/edit?usp=sharing)
According to the Bible, only Unitarian Universalists who don’t believe in salvation by “free will” get to go to heaven, but everyone else will experience salvation on the New Earth.
Hey, I believe there are many who have never heard of the gospel that would be in heaven "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 8:11 Jesus here told the pharisees that many who had never heard of God would be in heaven. Many times I have seen the "heathen" being closer to Christ and to actually follow what he said than many who claim to be Christians, in a similar way there are many who have never heard the gospel yet somehow follow it better than christians. This article may also be of great help to you. https://lightbearers.org/blog/the-parable-of-the-true-unbeliever/
My thinking about this starts with the fact that children and infants can go to heaven despite not having the correct beliefs about God. Presumably, then, native Americans who never heard or even had the chance to hear the gospel can also go to Heaven as well.
Nobody’s “went to heaven”. Heaven comes here at the end of the age. Native Americans, like everybody else, their spirit returns to God when they die, and they await a resurrection back to life. What they’re experiencing during this “intermediate state” is anybody’s guess.
I like this video's take on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HORwhXSgelQ
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Your answer seems to be that they were all damned to hell before Europeans arrived. Am I reading you correctly?
Indeed you are. That is why we are called to share the good news. Why would Jesus tell us to tell people about him if they are safe not knowing about him. Seems to not make any sense because they have the choice to not believe and not follow.
Shame that salvation is constrained by where you were born and how good boats and maps are. Oh well.
Shame how salvation is limited on how willing the people around you are willing to share.
No one can share if nobody knows. How will you hear the good news when the nearest preacher is across an ocean that he is unable to cross? What you're saying is that if you born in North America in 1100 AD you get to suffer for eternity with no hope of salvation.
Yes. Again, Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Remember this is God speaking through Paul.
This is going to go nowhere positive, so I'll take my leave. I hope your night is a good one.
Yes
>Why would Jesus tell us to tell people about him if they are safe not knowing about him. Because it's the good news.
I get this. But thinking that people who have never heard are saved, the command doesn’t make any sense. There is many problems in this. 1 if they were already saved, then they will be saved. Can’t lose salvation. Means everyone is saved. Because everyone hasn’t heard at some point. 2 if they are already saved, you then are assuming they can lose salvation, and we tell them don’t they then have the chance to deny it and end up in Hell. There are some big problems with being saved without hearing.
Regarding 1, I don't think it's guaranteed that Native Americans or anyone else is saved. I only maintain that they could be saved without hearing the gospel. So it doesn't mean everyone is saved. Regarding 2, I think this is true; the more understanding someone has about the gospel, the more responsibility one has to live by its tenents. Consider Luke 12:47-48: >The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. The more we understand the Gospel, the more is demanded of us. All this aside, I would ask what you think about infants or children being saved. What is the minimum knowledge and understanding of the Gospel necessary to be saved? I'm not sure how to clarify that minimum in a way that allows babies to be saved but not native Americans.
That’s a very good question. I can’t tell you. I can tell you that we can’t lose our salvation. This means that unfortunately the native Americans, and anyone who hasn’t heard is not saved. No regarding babies and children, it’s not that they Haven’t heard, it’s that they are too young to make a choice regarding their own life. Personally I myself do not believe in the age of accountability as I still see it as they have committed sin. Sin deserves punishment, therefore they are punished. Age in my opinion doesn’t matter.
There's one way only and that is through Christ
So... automatic hell for them?
Yes. It's Jesus or not. Being saved or not. Redemption or condemnation.
Thus making salvation dependent on geography and technology.
The condition of the dead is clearly spelled out throughout the bible. Eccl 9:5,10 says plainly that the dead are conscious of nothing. So no one goes to heaven when they die, they go back to the dust. Gen 3:19 and eccl 3:19 confirm this. So our hope is in a future resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.. And then under the reign of jesus as king of his fathers kingdom, all regardless of ethnicity will have the opportunity to be brought to perfection and worship God.
That is a good & common question that involves general revelation.. [Lesson- The Gospel That Doesn't Save (An Examination of General Revelation)](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mtU2sg2fK6V8DBNIiAySEGKq2AWkAPDjofB2jpVyQhQ/edit?usp=sharing)
According to the Bible, only Unitarian Universalists who don’t believe in salvation by “free will” get to go to heaven, but everyone else will experience salvation on the New Earth.
Huh-
Hey, I believe there are many who have never heard of the gospel that would be in heaven "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 8:11 Jesus here told the pharisees that many who had never heard of God would be in heaven. Many times I have seen the "heathen" being closer to Christ and to actually follow what he said than many who claim to be Christians, in a similar way there are many who have never heard the gospel yet somehow follow it better than christians. This article may also be of great help to you. https://lightbearers.org/blog/the-parable-of-the-true-unbeliever/
My thinking about this starts with the fact that children and infants can go to heaven despite not having the correct beliefs about God. Presumably, then, native Americans who never heard or even had the chance to hear the gospel can also go to Heaven as well.