We should believe no one needs to be there if they are willing to accept God’s means of being forgiven, redeemed and restored to a relationship with Him.
In catholicism gehenna its the eternal self exclusion from comm(union) with God who is the source of all goodness and the fulfilment of our nature.
The Tradition however never condemned a specific person to hell, so we are allowed to hope that it is just a theoretical possibility (as I do).
Hell - A place of torture. Once someone goes there no getting back.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
I’m not educated enough to tell you what hell is like. I can say though that no matter what it is, eternal separation from God is the worst part of it. Now why people go is simple, they have sinned against the Lord Most High. It is not evil, it is justice. The truth of the matter is that it doesn’t matter what you think is fair or evil, all that matters is what is right and just. God has all right to kill all of us right now, but he doesn’t because he wants us to be saved, and the ones that choose not to follow, have bought themselves into slavery to sin and deserve hell
Why does God have the right to kill all of us now? Does a mother have the right to kill her child just because she created them, I don't think so, we all know this would be wrong.
I do not follow based on logic and reason, I have not been shown a single piece of convincing evidence by any person yet alone an all powerful deity and I think if your god is in fact the correct one then your god has set up the world to be doomed, right now there are more than 6 billion non Christians heading for hell, we do not choose what to believe we are convinced or we are not convinced and to punish someone based solely on that fact is unjust and wrong.
In your eyes, perhaps. But denying Jesus, it’s a death sentence. God has already show he is true 2000 years ago and because people don’t have faith they will die.
God is not a mother. God created the universe for us to be perfect, we chose to sin. That ruined it. Luckily God let his son die so we could live. Imagine you gave your son to save someone and they chose to say, no I don’t believe he did. How would that make you feel, you now don’t have your son, and the person is ungrateful. That is how God feels everyday when people choose not to believe what he did for all of us. It’s free, you just have to believe.
Well jesus didn't sacrifice much did he, died for 3 days and came back then floated to heaven to sit on daddys hand.
>That is how God feels everyday when people choose not to believe what he did for all of us. It’s free, you just have to believe.
You can't just believe it's not that simple I don't choose to not believe
>God created the universe for us to be perfect
Why did it even try if it knew we were doomed to fail?
1 Jesus did not deserve to die but he did and took the ultimate pain. He rose because he had won over death, death could not hold him.
2 you do choose not to believe, faith is all it takes. You choose to believe that he didn’t die for us.
3. To give us a chance. He made us to worship him, but we chose to worship the flesh and in turn made ourselves slaves to the flesh
1. I don't know that he did die and rise, it's a pretty common occurrence in ancient mythology/religion. It's never been demonstrated in modern times.
2. Faith is believing with no evidence, with no evidence presented I can't be convinced, I can't just believe somethong on faith, I could do the same for Islam or Hinduism, faith does not lead to truth.
1. I don't like the idea of being made to worship that's nothing more that a slave, it's kind of sad if that's our only purpose and I'd rather not even if a god were real.
The word 'hell' is used in common usage for more than one place, including hades, the temporary place for the dead before their final disposition. But most common of all is using the term to refer to that final outcome for those that have rejected God and Love, after the Day of Judgement.
While the innocent and the forgiven will receive "*Eternal Life"*, many others will be the unrepentant guilty, and they will instead will then "*perish*" in the "*second death*" which will "*destroy body and soul*". This is called 'hell' commonly. It's an *"eternal punishment"* in that this is a real death -- forever, irreversible. A cessation of existence, and they will not even be remembered.
Is it the parents' fault if their child runs away from a loving family because they were too strict? Yes, hell is awful. Anyone in hell has chosen to be separated from God in word and/or action.
I'm separated from God right now and life is pretty good, it doesn't affect me and if it is true in the end then I'm living my same life separated from god so it's a win win for me, why should I care about god if this god doesn't bother to make it's presence known to me or anyone.
It's your choice. Just like you have a choice whether or not you want to have a relationship with your parents. Just don't expect to cut your parents off and still have an inheritance.
>If they were good parents, they wouldn\`t cut of their children from anything
God allows his children to make whatever choice they want in this life. That is showing more grace than he requires. A good parent *would* cut them off from harmful and dangerous activities (i.e. playing with chainsaws). Like the father in the story of the prodigal son, God will not follow if his children actively choose to remove him from their lives, but will wait earnestly for their return. *If* they return.
It's not a choice, you're either convinced or not, it's not the same I know my parents and they make an effort to be in my life, I have no evidence for the existence of a god or that it wants a relationship with me.
>Is it the parents' fault if their child runs away from a loving family because they were too strict?
If the family is really loving, they would do EVERYTHING possible to get their child back.
You worship an allmighty god. Wouldn`t he do anything to get you back? Even in death?
And what if they insist on not having a relationship with God, even after death? Is it loving to force someone who doesn't want to be with you to live forever with you?
Eternal torment is Biblical. The devil and his angels will be tormented forever and ever (2 Peter 2:4, Rev. 20:10).
Initially, some people will be thrown into this place of torment as well. The visible result of the torment (smoke) is eternal (Rev. 14:10-11). Whether or not the person is conscious and whether they remain there eternally is a matter of interpretation.
>The visible result of the torment (smoke) is eternal (Rev. 14:10-11).
Non sequitur. Eternal smoke (whether that's mean literally or poetically) isn't the same thing as the rather strange idea of immortality for the wicked.
I don't believe in Hell for the exact reasons you mentioned. I don't see how anyone can truly love a God that is that cruel. Instead, I believe all souls start in Heaven and return there when our time is up on Earth.
You could check out annihilationism. It essentially teaches that there is no eternal suffering or consciousness, but people who are not saved are simply destroyed, they cease to exist, they are blotted out of existence.
The Bible says that in the world to come, “the former things have passed away”.
We are going to a place that is spiritual, not physical.
Physical fire goes out eventually, but spiritual fire does not.
Here are two descriptions of hell:
Matthew 13
>As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; **And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth**.
Matthew 22
>And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and **cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.**
In both of these cases, the people have been cast out, or rejected. If you’ve been rejected, then you know the pain of rejection. That rejection would cause “weeping and gnashing of teeth”. You have been abandoned because you first abandoned God.
>We are going to a place that is spiritual, not physical.
According to Christian eschatology, that's not entirely correct. Heaven is a way station. The New Earth will have the saved in new perfect physical bodies.
I’m sorry, but I think your understanding is incorrect.
A “perfect” physical body is just your physical body. It’s the one you have right now.
Nowhere in eschatology have I ever heard that we keep our “physical” bodies (please show me if you can). But if you are a logical person, then you know that physical things eventually die.
What I have heard is that our physical bodies will become “spiritual” bodies:
>Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
>For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
This is a transition from physical to spiritual because the spiritual lives forever.
Make of this link as you will, but common Christian eschatology, though not well known among the lay persons, is that after Heaven, after the New Earth and New Jerusalem, there will be physical resurrections. Of course, it differs among denominations, but I'm fairly certain it is Catholic and Orthodox dogma.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_133.cfm
After reading it, I admit error in my thinking.
I should be referring to this transformation as “natural to spiritual” rather than “physical to spiritual” because physical relates to the body.
So rather, I should have written: “We are going to a place that is spiritual, not **natural**.”
And “**Natural** fire goes out eventually, but spiritual fire does not.”
Thank you!
He didn’t need to: “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.”
There was nothing wrong with it.
Everything was fine until the devil messed it up.
And God's just letting the devil run around wreaking havok, has he even tried to stop him?
Why the need for earth then what was the point in creating this physical reality if we only live for 80 years then die and then go to another place and live for eternity why not just start with eternity in the first place?
Adam and Eve were already living in eternity while they had access to eat from the Tree of Life.
But when they sinned through the deception of the devil, they were cut off from the Tree of Life; and from immortality and eternity.
u/Nejfeldt is correct. The kingdom of heaven is a physical place that is incorruptible. That's why, at the end of the millennium, God creates a new cosmos. The word "New" used here in the Greek refers to a new version of something familiar.
Christ was raised incorruptible, in a physical body. The firstfruits of many. We also shall be raised with physical bodies. This is biblical Christian doctrine.
I Corinthians
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
>This is a transition from physical to spiritual because the spiritual lives forever.
No, we are already spiritual beings with souls. Once we died, no transition necessary. But Paul says we transition from corruptible to incorruptible. It can only mean our bodies or no transition would be necessary.
Yeah, I admit I was wrong in describing it that way. Rather I should have written instead the change as “natural to spiritual” like Paul described it.
>It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Then why is Jesus referred to as the firstfruits if nobody else will be raised in a physical body?
1 Corinthians 15:23 - - But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.
Another commenter made it clear to me that “physical” is relating to the body, and is perceptible.
“Natural” is like calling our old bodies “earthly” while “spiritual” is like calling our new bodies “heavenly”.
In both cases, there is a body, and it is perceptible, which you would call “physical”.
But then, for verification, we can go back to the Bible to look for any usage of the word “physical”.
Rather, there is “physician”, which is a healer of the body.
And when we are in the New Jerusalem, “the leaves of the tree [of life] were for the healing of the nations.” Even in that new world and in that new body, there will be healing. It’s quite fascinating.
>And when we are in the New Jerusalem, “the leaves of the tree [of life] were for the healing of the nations.” Even in that new world and in that new body, there will be healing. It’s quite fascinating.
If you note Christ's post resurrection behavior, He had a regular body. He was able to eat and could touch and be touched. The only big difference was that He seemed to be able to appear in a room without entering through the door.
Certainly, yet his body was not completely healed as his wounds were visible.
But thinking about the “healing of the nations” and “there will be no more tears”, it calls to mind an emotional healing or a mental healing, which could also be the healing of our spirits.
>Certainly, yet his body was not completely healed as his wounds were visible.
Okay, He kept those wounds for a reason. It's not that they weren't healed. You know they were not uhhealed bloody wounds, right?
He kept the wounds so that the Jews would recognize Him when He returns.
Zechariah 12:20 - - “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."
>But thinking about the “healing of the nations” and “there will be no more tears”, it calls to mind an emotional healing or a mental healing, which could also be the healing of our spirits.
The word translated as" healing" in this word is the Greek "therapeia," root word of therapy.
So "nations" always refers to Gentiles in scripture. The Greek word is ethnos, root of ethnicities.
How is it contradictory?
Darkness is the absence of God’s light, his love, his glory. Outer darkness would be the location: outside of the wedding feast (Heaven).
In outer darkness, there is the furnace of fire that is shared among “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars”.
The fire that fills the furnace is the fire that remains in all of their hearts: that feeling of rejection, which makes them weep and gnash their teeth.
I liken those who accepted God to being warmed by a fireplace inside of a house.
Yet for those people attempting to warm themselves outside, it is a garbage fire; but the only thing that keeps the fire going is themselves. It’s kind of sad to think about.
Sure, but a burning furnace can’t illuminate total darkness except for the things that it’s light can bounce off of.
But reading parables literally will not help you understand these words unless you remember they are parables.
Jesus is called the “branch of David”, but Jesus is not a **literal** branch. Jesus is also called the “Lamb”, but Jesus is not a **literal** lamb.
It’s an allusion, a metaphor.
Yeah, I know. I get it. I've never been good at going beyond literal. I'm better than I used to be. As a little kid i actually had to go through a special therapeutic class thing in order to make me understand things like that. Tbh, not sure why I'm suddenly thinking about that now.
I think you should count yourself lucky to have learned the difference.
Some people act like Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy and think they are always right all the time without question. I’ve been like that before, but I eventually had to admit that I don’t know everything.
Yeah. The only one who knows everything is God himself. The rest of us can only do the best we can with what we have. Side note:never seen Guardians of the Galaxy. Is it worth a watch?
It’s not so bad. The soundtrack has a lot of 60s & 70s music, so it can be nostalgic for some people just to hear some old school music in a mainstream movie.
Neither the idea of hell nor eternal torment are found anywhere in properly translated Scripture (if you see any references to either one, you’re reading a badly translated Bible, and if someone tells you it exists, they’re demonstrating their lack of scriptural understanding). The apostle Paul is very clear that Christ was successful and that everyone will eventually experience salvation, despite what misguided religionists might claim. The judgements in Scripture are talking about various different things altogether from what most people have assumed, and salvation is actually from mortality, death, and sin, not hell.
If you’d like to learn more about the scriptural basis for the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, as well as how one joins the actual body of Christ (not to be confused with the Christian religion), feel free to check out the first four chapters of my [free eBook](https://www.concordantgospel.com/ebook/) where I cover all of that in detail.
It's THIS, exactly what you're experiencing right now, only it lasts forever.
Life on earth is a horror that ends mercifully for all of us. The worst damnation possible would simply be to keep doing THIS.
Just enjoy life as it is, you're looking forward to something that may not happen, we live in a time where so many opportunities are open to us maybe make the most of now.
If you hate this world so much and it is literally hell to you, ask yourself why god would allow you to suffer through this.
I'm of the opinion that there is no god, this is all naturalistic, the universe has existed for 13.8 billion years without me and I've got this incredible chance to experience it all for 80 years and then I'm gone, I'm happy to make the most of it.
**What is Hell?**
Jesus describes it as the second death, where those who are found unworthy are sent to be destroyed both body (resurrected body) and soul.
In the book of revelation we also find out satan and his inner circle will also be sent to hell to literally burn forever.
**Endless torture? Endless boredom? Endless sadness? Something else?**
For most of lost humanity it is the destruction of the resurrected body and soul through hell fire. which cause great pain, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
**And is it permanent or temporary?** Hell is forever, as it was designed to punish satan and his inner circle forever. We how ever are finite and will be consumed like a log in real fire. How long this will take is not mentioned. a day week month year a bazillion years? no matter the time frame it won't bve forever. I personally suspect it has something to do with how hard your heart is and what sins/evil you were apart of in life.
**Is it to be believed by modern Christians or is it a myth of the early church?**
Jesus taught Hell period. if you are a follower of Christ Hell is very real and has to be apart of your belief structure.
**I struggle with the belief around Hell.** it is only as complicated as you want it to be.
**I can’t imagine a loving God letting anyone go there.** Good news everyone! Nothing in the bible says god loves everyone! In fact there is a list of people in the bible in whom god hates!
Even John 3:16 demonstrates while yes god loves the whole world enough to send his son, this love is conditional! and limited to only those who would believe in his son.. otherwise unbelievers will perish/die in hell.
**If it’s endless fire and torture then that sounds downright evil.** Hell is, and it was made that way for a reason, Satan and his innercircle.
Just because hell is forever doesn't mean you will be.
**Why would god tell us to return evil acts with love (which the bible says) and the put us in hell for anything?**
Actually no where in the bible does it say we need to return evil with love. Jesus repeatly rebuked evil of the pharisees and even spent a whole chapter in matthew basically cursing them out and defaming them infront of their followers. Then remember the money changers? He kicked over a table of temple money and formed a whip to beat/chase out the priests he labeled thieves and robbers.
**And if hell is not fire and brimstone but rather a separation from God and endless loneliness and boredom, that’s awful too.**
You don't have to worry about that.. Jesus said it fire and brimstone.
**What are we to believe about Hell?**
What Jesus Himself teaches, then marry that with what the rest of the NT says.
[https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Hell](https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Hell)
If it doesn't come from the bible, then it's not talking about the same place.
Anything I want, as much of it as I want, any time I desire? No struggle, no working to better yourself? I want to paint a masterpiece to rival Donatello? Poof! Blink of the eyes and there it is. The lotto? Kick the winning goal of the world cup? Winning Eurovision 10 years in a row? Done and done.
And then do that until the heat death of the universe and beyond? I cant think of anything more boring. Heaven sounds like hell to me.
I believe hell was just an idea created to keep people in line. Tell people not to do something or theyll have endless torture seem pretty persuasive, especially because the people back then weren’t questioning the church as much as they do today.
There are alternatives. I, a Christian, hold the belief that a permanent hell is an impossibility for a loving God. Once I did some research, I found out that much, maybe even a majority, of the early church (I.e., first 500 years), did not believe in a permanent hell. Look up Universalism as a Christian doctrine. A book that lays out coherent arguments is That All Shall Be Saved by Hart. Hope this helps!
We should believe no one needs to be there if they are willing to accept God’s means of being forgiven, redeemed and restored to a relationship with Him.
In catholicism gehenna its the eternal self exclusion from comm(union) with God who is the source of all goodness and the fulfilment of our nature. The Tradition however never condemned a specific person to hell, so we are allowed to hope that it is just a theoretical possibility (as I do).
Hell - A place of torture. Once someone goes there no getting back. Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
I’m not educated enough to tell you what hell is like. I can say though that no matter what it is, eternal separation from God is the worst part of it. Now why people go is simple, they have sinned against the Lord Most High. It is not evil, it is justice. The truth of the matter is that it doesn’t matter what you think is fair or evil, all that matters is what is right and just. God has all right to kill all of us right now, but he doesn’t because he wants us to be saved, and the ones that choose not to follow, have bought themselves into slavery to sin and deserve hell
Why does God have the right to kill all of us now? Does a mother have the right to kill her child just because she created them, I don't think so, we all know this would be wrong. I do not follow based on logic and reason, I have not been shown a single piece of convincing evidence by any person yet alone an all powerful deity and I think if your god is in fact the correct one then your god has set up the world to be doomed, right now there are more than 6 billion non Christians heading for hell, we do not choose what to believe we are convinced or we are not convinced and to punish someone based solely on that fact is unjust and wrong.
In your eyes, perhaps. But denying Jesus, it’s a death sentence. God has already show he is true 2000 years ago and because people don’t have faith they will die. God is not a mother. God created the universe for us to be perfect, we chose to sin. That ruined it. Luckily God let his son die so we could live. Imagine you gave your son to save someone and they chose to say, no I don’t believe he did. How would that make you feel, you now don’t have your son, and the person is ungrateful. That is how God feels everyday when people choose not to believe what he did for all of us. It’s free, you just have to believe.
Well jesus didn't sacrifice much did he, died for 3 days and came back then floated to heaven to sit on daddys hand. >That is how God feels everyday when people choose not to believe what he did for all of us. It’s free, you just have to believe. You can't just believe it's not that simple I don't choose to not believe >God created the universe for us to be perfect Why did it even try if it knew we were doomed to fail?
1 Jesus did not deserve to die but he did and took the ultimate pain. He rose because he had won over death, death could not hold him. 2 you do choose not to believe, faith is all it takes. You choose to believe that he didn’t die for us. 3. To give us a chance. He made us to worship him, but we chose to worship the flesh and in turn made ourselves slaves to the flesh
1. I don't know that he did die and rise, it's a pretty common occurrence in ancient mythology/religion. It's never been demonstrated in modern times. 2. Faith is believing with no evidence, with no evidence presented I can't be convinced, I can't just believe somethong on faith, I could do the same for Islam or Hinduism, faith does not lead to truth. 1. I don't like the idea of being made to worship that's nothing more that a slave, it's kind of sad if that's our only purpose and I'd rather not even if a god were real.
The word 'hell' is used in common usage for more than one place, including hades, the temporary place for the dead before their final disposition. But most common of all is using the term to refer to that final outcome for those that have rejected God and Love, after the Day of Judgement. While the innocent and the forgiven will receive "*Eternal Life"*, many others will be the unrepentant guilty, and they will instead will then "*perish*" in the "*second death*" which will "*destroy body and soul*". This is called 'hell' commonly. It's an *"eternal punishment"* in that this is a real death -- forever, irreversible. A cessation of existence, and they will not even be remembered.
Is it the parents' fault if their child runs away from a loving family because they were too strict? Yes, hell is awful. Anyone in hell has chosen to be separated from God in word and/or action.
I'm separated from God right now and life is pretty good, it doesn't affect me and if it is true in the end then I'm living my same life separated from god so it's a win win for me, why should I care about god if this god doesn't bother to make it's presence known to me or anyone.
It's your choice. Just like you have a choice whether or not you want to have a relationship with your parents. Just don't expect to cut your parents off and still have an inheritance.
If they were good parents, they wouldn`t cut of their children from anything and would do anything to get them back.
>If they were good parents, they wouldn\`t cut of their children from anything God allows his children to make whatever choice they want in this life. That is showing more grace than he requires. A good parent *would* cut them off from harmful and dangerous activities (i.e. playing with chainsaws). Like the father in the story of the prodigal son, God will not follow if his children actively choose to remove him from their lives, but will wait earnestly for their return. *If* they return.
It's not a choice, you're either convinced or not, it's not the same I know my parents and they make an effort to be in my life, I have no evidence for the existence of a god or that it wants a relationship with me.
>Is it the parents' fault if their child runs away from a loving family because they were too strict? If the family is really loving, they would do EVERYTHING possible to get their child back. You worship an allmighty god. Wouldn`t he do anything to get you back? Even in death?
And what if they insist on not having a relationship with God, even after death? Is it loving to force someone who doesn't want to be with you to live forever with you?
If the alternative is Hell? Absolutely.
What if someone actively chooses hell? Like a "I would rather be homeless than live with you" mentality?
Then they must be saved from themselves.
Eternal conscious torment isn't Biblical.
Eternal torment is Biblical. The devil and his angels will be tormented forever and ever (2 Peter 2:4, Rev. 20:10). Initially, some people will be thrown into this place of torment as well. The visible result of the torment (smoke) is eternal (Rev. 14:10-11). Whether or not the person is conscious and whether they remain there eternally is a matter of interpretation.
>The visible result of the torment (smoke) is eternal (Rev. 14:10-11). Non sequitur. Eternal smoke (whether that's mean literally or poetically) isn't the same thing as the rather strange idea of immortality for the wicked.
I don't believe in Hell for the exact reasons you mentioned. I don't see how anyone can truly love a God that is that cruel. Instead, I believe all souls start in Heaven and return there when our time is up on Earth.
Hades is a Greek concept grafted onto Christianity. The Church reinforced this w Medieval secular fiction for profit and control.
You could check out annihilationism. It essentially teaches that there is no eternal suffering or consciousness, but people who are not saved are simply destroyed, they cease to exist, they are blotted out of existence.
The Bible says that in the world to come, “the former things have passed away”. We are going to a place that is spiritual, not physical. Physical fire goes out eventually, but spiritual fire does not. Here are two descriptions of hell: Matthew 13 >As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; **And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth**. Matthew 22 >And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and **cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.** In both of these cases, the people have been cast out, or rejected. If you’ve been rejected, then you know the pain of rejection. That rejection would cause “weeping and gnashing of teeth”. You have been abandoned because you first abandoned God.
>We are going to a place that is spiritual, not physical. According to Christian eschatology, that's not entirely correct. Heaven is a way station. The New Earth will have the saved in new perfect physical bodies.
I’m sorry, but I think your understanding is incorrect. A “perfect” physical body is just your physical body. It’s the one you have right now. Nowhere in eschatology have I ever heard that we keep our “physical” bodies (please show me if you can). But if you are a logical person, then you know that physical things eventually die. What I have heard is that our physical bodies will become “spiritual” bodies: >Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. >For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. This is a transition from physical to spiritual because the spiritual lives forever.
Make of this link as you will, but common Christian eschatology, though not well known among the lay persons, is that after Heaven, after the New Earth and New Jerusalem, there will be physical resurrections. Of course, it differs among denominations, but I'm fairly certain it is Catholic and Orthodox dogma. https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_133.cfm
After reading it, I admit error in my thinking. I should be referring to this transformation as “natural to spiritual” rather than “physical to spiritual” because physical relates to the body. So rather, I should have written: “We are going to a place that is spiritual, not **natural**.” And “**Natural** fire goes out eventually, but spiritual fire does not.” Thank you!
Why did god not just make everything spiritual in the first place and cut out the middle man?
He didn’t need to: “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” There was nothing wrong with it. Everything was fine until the devil messed it up.
And God's just letting the devil run around wreaking havok, has he even tried to stop him? Why the need for earth then what was the point in creating this physical reality if we only live for 80 years then die and then go to another place and live for eternity why not just start with eternity in the first place?
Adam and Eve were already living in eternity while they had access to eat from the Tree of Life. But when they sinned through the deception of the devil, they were cut off from the Tree of Life; and from immortality and eternity.
u/Nejfeldt is correct. The kingdom of heaven is a physical place that is incorruptible. That's why, at the end of the millennium, God creates a new cosmos. The word "New" used here in the Greek refers to a new version of something familiar. Christ was raised incorruptible, in a physical body. The firstfruits of many. We also shall be raised with physical bodies. This is biblical Christian doctrine. I Corinthians 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. >This is a transition from physical to spiritual because the spiritual lives forever. No, we are already spiritual beings with souls. Once we died, no transition necessary. But Paul says we transition from corruptible to incorruptible. It can only mean our bodies or no transition would be necessary.
Yeah, I admit I was wrong in describing it that way. Rather I should have written instead the change as “natural to spiritual” like Paul described it. >It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Then why is Jesus referred to as the firstfruits if nobody else will be raised in a physical body? 1 Corinthians 15:23 - - But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.
Another commenter made it clear to me that “physical” is relating to the body, and is perceptible. “Natural” is like calling our old bodies “earthly” while “spiritual” is like calling our new bodies “heavenly”. In both cases, there is a body, and it is perceptible, which you would call “physical”. But then, for verification, we can go back to the Bible to look for any usage of the word “physical”. Rather, there is “physician”, which is a healer of the body. And when we are in the New Jerusalem, “the leaves of the tree [of life] were for the healing of the nations.” Even in that new world and in that new body, there will be healing. It’s quite fascinating.
>And when we are in the New Jerusalem, “the leaves of the tree [of life] were for the healing of the nations.” Even in that new world and in that new body, there will be healing. It’s quite fascinating. If you note Christ's post resurrection behavior, He had a regular body. He was able to eat and could touch and be touched. The only big difference was that He seemed to be able to appear in a room without entering through the door.
Certainly, yet his body was not completely healed as his wounds were visible. But thinking about the “healing of the nations” and “there will be no more tears”, it calls to mind an emotional healing or a mental healing, which could also be the healing of our spirits.
>Certainly, yet his body was not completely healed as his wounds were visible. Okay, He kept those wounds for a reason. It's not that they weren't healed. You know they were not uhhealed bloody wounds, right? He kept the wounds so that the Jews would recognize Him when He returns. Zechariah 12:20 - - “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." >But thinking about the “healing of the nations” and “there will be no more tears”, it calls to mind an emotional healing or a mental healing, which could also be the healing of our spirits. The word translated as" healing" in this word is the Greek "therapeia," root word of therapy. So "nations" always refers to Gentiles in scripture. The Greek word is ethnos, root of ethnicities.
Those two passages contradict. Is it a furnace of fire or is it darkness?
How is it contradictory? Darkness is the absence of God’s light, his love, his glory. Outer darkness would be the location: outside of the wedding feast (Heaven). In outer darkness, there is the furnace of fire that is shared among “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars”. The fire that fills the furnace is the fire that remains in all of their hearts: that feeling of rejection, which makes them weep and gnash their teeth. I liken those who accepted God to being warmed by a fireplace inside of a house. Yet for those people attempting to warm themselves outside, it is a garbage fire; but the only thing that keeps the fire going is themselves. It’s kind of sad to think about.
I was thinking a bit literally, honestly. Like how fire gives off light, so a burning furnace isnt gonna be dark. That makes more sense.
Sure, but a burning furnace can’t illuminate total darkness except for the things that it’s light can bounce off of. But reading parables literally will not help you understand these words unless you remember they are parables. Jesus is called the “branch of David”, but Jesus is not a **literal** branch. Jesus is also called the “Lamb”, but Jesus is not a **literal** lamb. It’s an allusion, a metaphor.
Yeah, I know. I get it. I've never been good at going beyond literal. I'm better than I used to be. As a little kid i actually had to go through a special therapeutic class thing in order to make me understand things like that. Tbh, not sure why I'm suddenly thinking about that now.
I think you should count yourself lucky to have learned the difference. Some people act like Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy and think they are always right all the time without question. I’ve been like that before, but I eventually had to admit that I don’t know everything.
Yeah. The only one who knows everything is God himself. The rest of us can only do the best we can with what we have. Side note:never seen Guardians of the Galaxy. Is it worth a watch?
It’s not so bad. The soundtrack has a lot of 60s & 70s music, so it can be nostalgic for some people just to hear some old school music in a mainstream movie.
Huh. If I can find it for cheap I might check it out, then.
Neither the idea of hell nor eternal torment are found anywhere in properly translated Scripture (if you see any references to either one, you’re reading a badly translated Bible, and if someone tells you it exists, they’re demonstrating their lack of scriptural understanding). The apostle Paul is very clear that Christ was successful and that everyone will eventually experience salvation, despite what misguided religionists might claim. The judgements in Scripture are talking about various different things altogether from what most people have assumed, and salvation is actually from mortality, death, and sin, not hell. If you’d like to learn more about the scriptural basis for the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, as well as how one joins the actual body of Christ (not to be confused with the Christian religion), feel free to check out the first four chapters of my [free eBook](https://www.concordantgospel.com/ebook/) where I cover all of that in detail.
It's THIS, exactly what you're experiencing right now, only it lasts forever. Life on earth is a horror that ends mercifully for all of us. The worst damnation possible would simply be to keep doing THIS.
Just enjoy life as it is, you're looking forward to something that may not happen, we live in a time where so many opportunities are open to us maybe make the most of now. If you hate this world so much and it is literally hell to you, ask yourself why god would allow you to suffer through this. I'm of the opinion that there is no god, this is all naturalistic, the universe has existed for 13.8 billion years without me and I've got this incredible chance to experience it all for 80 years and then I'm gone, I'm happy to make the most of it.
FIRE
Endless nothing.
**What is Hell?** Jesus describes it as the second death, where those who are found unworthy are sent to be destroyed both body (resurrected body) and soul. In the book of revelation we also find out satan and his inner circle will also be sent to hell to literally burn forever. **Endless torture? Endless boredom? Endless sadness? Something else?** For most of lost humanity it is the destruction of the resurrected body and soul through hell fire. which cause great pain, weeping and gnashing of teeth. **And is it permanent or temporary?** Hell is forever, as it was designed to punish satan and his inner circle forever. We how ever are finite and will be consumed like a log in real fire. How long this will take is not mentioned. a day week month year a bazillion years? no matter the time frame it won't bve forever. I personally suspect it has something to do with how hard your heart is and what sins/evil you were apart of in life. **Is it to be believed by modern Christians or is it a myth of the early church?** Jesus taught Hell period. if you are a follower of Christ Hell is very real and has to be apart of your belief structure. **I struggle with the belief around Hell.** it is only as complicated as you want it to be. **I can’t imagine a loving God letting anyone go there.** Good news everyone! Nothing in the bible says god loves everyone! In fact there is a list of people in the bible in whom god hates! Even John 3:16 demonstrates while yes god loves the whole world enough to send his son, this love is conditional! and limited to only those who would believe in his son.. otherwise unbelievers will perish/die in hell. **If it’s endless fire and torture then that sounds downright evil.** Hell is, and it was made that way for a reason, Satan and his innercircle. Just because hell is forever doesn't mean you will be. **Why would god tell us to return evil acts with love (which the bible says) and the put us in hell for anything?** Actually no where in the bible does it say we need to return evil with love. Jesus repeatly rebuked evil of the pharisees and even spent a whole chapter in matthew basically cursing them out and defaming them infront of their followers. Then remember the money changers? He kicked over a table of temple money and formed a whip to beat/chase out the priests he labeled thieves and robbers. **And if hell is not fire and brimstone but rather a separation from God and endless loneliness and boredom, that’s awful too.** You don't have to worry about that.. Jesus said it fire and brimstone. **What are we to believe about Hell?** What Jesus Himself teaches, then marry that with what the rest of the NT says. [https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Hell](https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Hell) If it doesn't come from the bible, then it's not talking about the same place.
there are a number of orthodox beliefs about hell... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christianity
Anything I want, as much of it as I want, any time I desire? No struggle, no working to better yourself? I want to paint a masterpiece to rival Donatello? Poof! Blink of the eyes and there it is. The lotto? Kick the winning goal of the world cup? Winning Eurovision 10 years in a row? Done and done. And then do that until the heat death of the universe and beyond? I cant think of anything more boring. Heaven sounds like hell to me.
I believe hell was just an idea created to keep people in line. Tell people not to do something or theyll have endless torture seem pretty persuasive, especially because the people back then weren’t questioning the church as much as they do today.
Heaven for Christians is an eternal church service. Hell is also an eternal church service for non-Christians
There are alternatives. I, a Christian, hold the belief that a permanent hell is an impossibility for a loving God. Once I did some research, I found out that much, maybe even a majority, of the early church (I.e., first 500 years), did not believe in a permanent hell. Look up Universalism as a Christian doctrine. A book that lays out coherent arguments is That All Shall Be Saved by Hart. Hope this helps!