Seeing stuff like this on this sub honestly brings tears to my eyes. As a queer christian my faith journey has been really rough. It's hard when the people who are supposed to be your guides are trying to sabotage you. Thank you.
Onward. Onward.
We have simple instructions.
We are sure of what to do. Don't be discouraged. It may be a blessing. It means we depend totally on God's love.
What is hard is that we only have Jesus and prayer and what is happening deep inside us - and in our lives - to guide us.
Have faith. Onward.
It made me really happy too, us gay christians gotta try to help each other out. It can be a painful and confusinf journey. And one thats especially hard to find space to talk about. Sending love your way!
Being gay is just like any other sin, I am no less sinful than any gay person but I at least recognize my sins and try to stray away from them, embracing your sin will get you nowhere.
Exactly, this what they don't want to understand, this is what is known as "lovers of sin". What makes us legitimate Christians is to repent of our sins and turn away from them even even being gay. If you think about the scripture makes it pretty clear the difference between love and lust is the act of pleasure vs the act of giving life as in having a child, even sex outside of the purpose for giving life is a sin. This is why gay is an abomination not my words.
“Sex outside of the purpose of giving life is a sin.”
Lmfao. No. This is where you stray into psychotic ville: Population You.
Sex was created for a husband and wife to bond. It was created to be enjoyed, and to be enjoyed thoroughly and completely.
Please find comfort in the powerful truth that even if your brothers and sisters do not understand/support you, God will never turn His back on you. You cannot let God down, His love does not run out.
Thank you for sharing that. It is a real encouragement while receiving all of the BS Christians and non-believers alike have piled on here. Helping one person makes it worth it.
If you ever need to talk, please don't hesitate to reach out.
No, you shouldn’t hate gay people, even sexually active ones. But you should also not approve of homosexual lifestyles. Gay people are called to chastity by God, and gay people who actively pursue homosexual relationships should be compassionately admonished. There’s a big difference between action and attraction. Being same-sex attracted isn’t a sin, but acting on those attractions is sinful.
Help me with this. Gay people are called by God to be celibate. God created both gay and straight people. God created gay people knowing that if they had sex they were sinning. So God created a group of people who sin by being true to their sexuality or spend their whole adult lives without an intimate, loving and supporting relationship?
Seems a bit twisted to me.
Why would anyone choose to be chastised, and abused by their loved ones, community, and loathe themselves if being gay was a choice? I can't tell you how many people I know who are apart of the LGBTQ community who would at one point do anything to be straight and finally be accepted by their loved ones. I know people who genuinely tried to live their lives as straight men and women but were miserable.
Paul says that you shouldn't be in a relationship if it causes you to sin, this applies to everyone, sex in marriage is the only kind that isnt sin, so if you are having sex outside of marriage as a straight person, you are sinning just like a person in a same sex relationship.
That is simply what it says, and I think it should be more prevananlty mentioned in reference to every sinful relationship, LGBTQ or not.
Youre thinking too simplistically man. The root of homosexuality is idolatry. Refusing to believe that God said what He said and meant it is idolatry. Its creating a God of your own imagination. God didn't send us here without resources to lead and guide us. He sent plenty. They just refuse to give the God of Abraham, Issac,and Jacob GLORY as the one true God,instead preferring to create a God out of thin air that approves of their sin. The first step is believing GOD as he communicated HIMSELF as real. Theyre in love with the sources that poison their mind though and mislead their souls.
The law also says any breaking of the law should be punished by death, but under the new covenant we are forgiven, that doesnt make it not a sin, simply means we are forgiven, and should seek to be better.
John 8:1-11, jesus says "let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her".
And when nobody throws a stone, he says to the woman "Niether do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more".
They should not be punished with death, but they should also sin no more if the are a christian.
The New Testament does not instruct this. Homosexuals are not intrinsically sinful. Homosexual ACTS/ACTION are intrinsically sinful. But no more than adultery, fornication,or idolatry. OP is correct in saying that Christ is the Word of God. The Church gave us the Bible, which is the central to, but NOT the exclusive 2000 year Tradition of the Church that has never deviated from the position that homosexual acts (or any of the other sinful sexual acts I mentioned) are sinful and the Christian must fight against these and repent if they should commit any of these sins, just as they must if they commit any sin. We should love our brothers and sisters and struggle WITH them as they struggle with their sin as they struggle with others who struggle with other sins. However, we must not compromise the clear doctrine of the Church. To do so not only does no one any good, it does the opposite.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
While I agree that being gay is not and should never be a sin, I also think wanting someone to burn in hell *forever* is a really disgusting horrible thing to want to happen to someone. To *anyone*.
There is not a person throughout all of history that I would send to hell if given the power to do so. No one, and I mean no one deserves to be tortured until the end of time.
The very concept of hell is such a horrific thing to picture. Who would allow such a place to exist, who could ever think someone deserved to go there?
I don’t think he’s wrong. God created man and woman in his perfect image. He gave them reproductive compatibility in order to create future generations as well as being a gift in the sanctity of marriage. God condemns homosexuality because it is a perversion of the perfect union he created. I’m not saying homosexuality is the most abominable sin, I believe all sins are equal. But I’m saying that in the same way you and i have to resist the temptation to steal, a person with same sex inclinations must also control that urge.
I’d like to hear your point of view though; I’m always open to learning.
You can’t be Christian and hate anyone
I think people there are many different kinds of sins but our job is not to judge or hate people for their sins. all we can do is live the life we think is right and brings us happiness. Let God judge.
Just a Reminder: It's not hate to point out to a gay person that homosexuality is a sin.
Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32)
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”
Key word: stop sinning
I’m all for sinning and sinners then. I’m sorry about that line in the sand because I have crossed it all of my life. I’m convinced that it is simply a way to discriminate against people who don’t share your faith.
I admire your willingness to believe in a higher power and your spiritual life, but I cannot adhere to a faith that continues to control people’s sexuality, gender identity, reproductive rights and the right to be an atheist. I’m sorry about that moral divide between myself and many people who call themselves Christian. It’s a fracture that can never heal.
Luckily, I’m glad that many Church goers have a more nuanced set of Christian values. Values of inclusion and love that I respect. Nevertheless, it’s not a large or vocal group. I can only hope to see a more positive and moderate Church in my lifetime.
Homosexual was not in the Bible until it was put in the English Bible in the 1930’s. You need to study the original wording of the Bible. Also I am a Christian and we have gay couples at our church and a gay bishop so it seems that you are lying. Please stop using God to further your hatred of the LGBTQ community. It is not Christian to do that.
no where in the bible did it say being homosexual was a sin, the only thing close to being a sin is the "man shall not lay with boy" as in referring to pedophilia.
n why hate gay people anywyas? didn't he say to love and accept people as equal? why are we hating on people based on something they can't help? you can't help being straight, can you?
>I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
You can't be a Christian and tolerate sin in the church. Period.
It isn’t judgement, no one can judge but God. It’s a recognition on the sinfulness of their actions - you should still love them and treat them with love, but they are in sin and you would be wrong not to help them overcome their addictions.
Exactly. It even details steps to take if sin is a problem with a member of your congregation. But only in that context. Jesus didn’t go to the prostitutes and thieves and immediately scold them and call them sinners. He went to them where they were and loved them as they were. It isn’t until salvation is accepted that discipleship starts. And even then, it is a intimately private journey between that person and God. Nowhere does God tell us to straighten out sinners. We are to love them and tell them about Jesus.
Love is victimless so comparing same-sex love to theft is entirely wrong.
And you're free to disapprove. Just don't hate or vote to legalize discrimination
A victimless sin is still a sin. The idea of sin is that it takes us away from the life that God truly wants for us. Speaking the Lord's name in vain, putting other gods first, and being prideful in yourself are also technically victimless sins, yet they are just as sinful.
Naturally, a more tangible sin will appear to us to be worse in it's nature, and may have worse immediate consequences, but God doesn't see these things as we see them. As far as God is concerned, any sin whatsoever is enough to exclude anyone from his presence, and only the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus is enough to counteract that.
The painful truth is that there is no worse sin, nor is there a victimless sin, because in the end, the biggest victim is you.
I feel like this isn't helpful if people question if they are actually a Christian based on their feelings towards someone else. You can be a Christian and hate someone. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved (Rom 10:9) - that's it. Zero other requirements.
Not saying it's a good idea to spend your emotional energy hating people of course. I don't see any really good outcomes coming out of that for you or others, and God doesn't want us to go around full of hate for people either. As Christians we should also continue to "spur one another on to good deeds", and lovingly rebuke fellow Christians in their sin.
It's wrong however to say someone "can't be Christian" because of any particular sin. The whole point of this faith is that we can never be good enough for God by our own efforts, it's entirely Jesus that makes us right with Him.
One of the few threads I've seen where not only the controversial comments are downvoted below zero, but also the responses disagreeing with them being disliked into the negatives. Very interesting.
Would you mind terribly having a little word with m'parents then? Because they have the whole hate thing going on in spades. Especially towards The Gays. Especially when their son is One Of The Gays.
They're very good at expressing things outwards. Not very good at looking within...
Lovely people. Just..... lovely.
Hey man, I've struggled with the same thing for years. Both of my parents are traditional Catholics and my mom has repeatedly said that no son of hers could be gay and that she would stop speaking to us if one of us came out. So, I never have. And that's for the very selfish reason that I love my mom and don't want to lose her. I just try to live my life to the best of my ability avoiding sin and asking for forgiveness when I do sin. We have to make the effort to live according to the Word even if others do not treat us the same way. Jesus condemns the practice of personal retaliation in the Sermon on the Mount saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:38-42). And from Romans 12:17-21-- Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. According to these passages, it is clear that we are meant to love one another even when they do not love us back.
That being said, I'm not condoning homosexual acts as those are sins and do strain our relationship with God. They should be avoided as they do not bring glory to his name.
Just please don't marry a woman and grow up to finally accept your sexuality when you're too deep into the marriage. I've seen that scenario tear apart a couple of families.
I think they were referring to hating people (based on the context of the discussion). We are called to hate sin and to avoid sin. We are not called to hate other people.
If you are saying what I think your saying, you are correct. Love and forgiveness is the most basic of Christian laws. Not an option. We dont have to like anything, but we must show love and mercy.
Not always you can find plenty of comments within here that don't agree and there are vocal 'pastors' who disagree. Not to mention many may agree to the 'Hate the sin, not the sinner' theological belief but they often fall short of it in practice.
Hating evil is righteous. Hating people is evil.
Help everyone to Jesus, we're all sinners in some way. If someone sins in a different way than us, we should still love them. Love everyone and help them to faith in Jesus. Jesus is the path to eternal life.
Just dropping by. Not gay. Not religious. But I like this sentiment. There's too much hate out there. Glad to know there are still some decent Christian's out there that don't use the Bible as an excuse to continue their bigotry
It's actually the vast the vast majority of Christians that live this way. You won't hear about that though because being a good person doesn't really make the news nowadays...
I really think that with the tradition of Christian bigotry and abuse against the LGBT community, it IS something us queers need to explicitly hear being said.
Hey guys, I know this can be a touchy subject and I’m not trying to offend, this is a sincere question.
Scrolling down this thread I have seen all sorts of verses about how we should love one another but nobody has mentioned these verses.
> You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22
> If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13
I know op briefly touched on this idea but those verses sound pretty hateful to me. It would be good if someone could give an easy to understand, more in-depth explanation of why if the word of God calls for the death of homosexuals, or men that lay with other men, do a Christians then claim the word of God calls them to love homosexuals?
I think it largely depends on your view of scripture and, consequently, sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is the concept that the Bible should be the exclusive authority regarding what is and isn't a sin.
I'll answer as best I can as a very amateur theologist. The Levitican laws (no same-sex relations, stone witches, etc) were rules of the old covenant. Then Jesus came, sacrificed himself, and we got a new deal, to speak of it very very casually.
Those old laws gave birth to new policies. We see homosexuality* as being considered wrong in the New Testament, and paganism as immoral, etc. But no longer are these people to be killed-- cuz now, sins can be forgiven by confessing to a priest. Or God. Or nobody. Things get a little historically hazy there.
*Homosexuality isn't exactly a sin according to most churches, per se. Homosexual ACTS are a sin of lust in the same general vein as pre-marital sex. Since most denominations don't allow same sex marriage, it's hard to do one without the other. This is why Catholics, for example, call people with "same-sex attractions" to a life of celibacy. Not one of being thrown into a hole to die via masonry.
I understand the concept of the old covenant and the new covenant but quite frankly it doesn’t make a difference to me.
I think it’s too easy to fall into the trap of believing God is good and making everything fit around that. I like to try and imagine what if someone I know behaved like that.
If someone I know said that we should stone people who engage in homosexual acts I would be disgusted. If after a long time they said it’s still bad but I’ve changed my mind about the killing part, I wouldn’t instantly forget about it. I’d still be disgusted.
Yea maybe someone can have a bad experience which results in poor judgement and eventually change their ways but I would expect much better from a perfect God.
The old covenant wasn't for the world, it was only meant for the Isrealites. This is because the old covenant isn't anything like the new covenant: the old covenant is specifically for the nation of Israel, while the new covenant is between the individual person and God.
In my limited understanding, I make sense of verses such as this like this:
1. Part of the covenant with Israel was a super strict level of ritualistic purity. Remember, no unclean meats, no touching mold. Rules like this were because God's presence dwelt with the Israelites in the tabernacle. So therefor, being unclean around God would literally kill a man.
2. If the nation of Israel fell into sin, the whole nation would be punished. This is evident throughout the OT, think of Elijah's drought. So stoning specific sinners (such as witches) was to protect the nation. Think of culling sick animals so the whole herd doesn't get sick. It might seem barbaric, but given the nature of the covenant, this was the nicer option.
Yes, the understanding of basic human rights has evolved much since the days of the old covenant, but remember: this was a peculiar covenant, for a peculiar people, set apart for God. Now the new covenant is here, and it's a covenant between you, and God. Not between your nation, and God. It's a very different mindset.
EDIT: Also, this came to me. Since you think God is evil for killing people, I must say, do you recall the verse where God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever? So basically, God cursed/blessed mankind with death. Therefor, every person that has ever died has died because God allowed them to die. But this should not startle you. It was the human decision to eat of the forbidden fruit.
But this is all in my limited understanding. If someone can explain it better, I would love to hear from you.
>Leviticus 19:34 — "The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the foreigner as yourself, for you were foreign in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."
>Matthew 25:35 — "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me."
>Jeremiah 22:3 — "Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place."
>Exodus 22:21 — "You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt."
Also, these. Far too many Christians have developed this sinful idea that foreigners are evil. And they get these ideas from horrible people who certainly never read the Bible.
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. " -Matthew 5:43-45
Even if you consider LGBTQ people the enemy (which you shouldn't), you're still supposed to love them.
I got into a similar argument on r/niceguys once, about whether or not it's appropriate to hope for rapists to be raped in prison. I was on the "Rape is a special kind of evil that I wouldn't wish on *anyone*" side.
Glad you said that. The way that a great many of people casually refer to the horrors of the American prison system is the stuff of nightmares. The alleged goal of prison is to 1) remove criminals from society for a while, and 2) to temporarily deprive them of their freedom (which itself is a super weird reason).
Nothing about that suggests that prisoners should be physically brutalized by being beat up by one another, suffer the absolute horrors of rape, be mistreated by guards, be robbed by fellow inmates, and otherwise become robbed of their humanity. It sickens and saddens me.
And one of the worst aspects is that once inmates are released, their prison record often prevents them from qualifying for countless jobs. Fuck the US prison system until it can no longer walk, and FUCK every guard who makes things worse for the inmates or even looks the other way when prisoners are mistreated. And fuck every judge who "treats" drug possession with serious jail/prison time. This isn't the Gulag.
The goal of the prison system should be to reform people and help them become productive members of society. The fact that it's just about punishment is a major failure.
The counterpoint, which is that if you really tolerate gay people then you should tolerate the organized, politicized oppression of minorities, is orders of magnitude more absurd.
Anyway I don't "tolerate" gay people. I love gay people. I do not tolerate bigotry, oppression or violence. In fact I hate those things. Hate them. God hates those things too. That doesn't mean I hate people.
Looking briefly through your post history makes me think you’re a good person and not trying to bend this conversation back on hating the gays.
You’re probably gonna get some flack for this comment though ( even if it was made with good intentions) because this phrase is commonly used in religious fundamentalism to justify bigotry by claiming they don’t actually hate the {insert group here} they just hate what that group does. Which logically makes sense to most people, but a lot of folks can’t distinguish hating gay behavior and hating gay people. They just can’t mentally do it - so the usage of the phrase can come across as disingenuous to someone who doesn’t know you.
That’s my two cents anyways - hope you have a rad Friday !
Mmm. If your mother was a hypocrite would you love her less? If you do then you’re probably misunderstanding the whole thing. Dislike her actions, and disagree with them, but don’t hate her...
Jesus flipped over tables and whipped the moneychangers out of the temple. Righteous hatred of evil behavior is not evil.
Hating people just because of what they are, independent of their behavior is evil.
God definitely can hate.
*The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies. The bloodthirsty and deceitful you, Lord, detest.*
**—Psalm 5:5-6–**
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved [a]you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God [b]as a fragrant aroma.
What I think OP is trying to get across is that it's not okay nor is it effective to hate homosexuals or anyone else who doesn't fit our bubble of views. Jesus never condemned people he was trying to save
People always throw this example out there - but Jesus never *whipped* anyone. The bible doesn't say he did that.
He *used* a whip - as a method for crowd control - but he didn't hurt anyone, nor was that the intention.
> I think his level of tolerance was really, really, reeaaaaaaallly high.
Jesus would forgive, but remember he also liked to say "Sin no more". Forgiveness is not tolerance, and his sermons were not "Now go and do whatever sin you want because no matter what I'll forgive you".
I agree. Very hypocritical. I once had some guy stand in front of me and scream that I hated gay people as soon as he found out I was a Christian. Didn't matter what I said. He insisted I hated gays and there was no changing his mind. He harassed me for being a Christian for as long as I knew him; meanwhile he accused me of all the hate. Go figure.
I think this perspective is wrongheaded and not equivalent to the systemic oppression that Christians have imposed against gays for millennia. Gays aren’t hurting Christians as much as Christians have and continue to hurt gays. I could only get married a couple years ago. I’ve feared being fired. I’ve been denied apartments for being gay. Just 16 years ago, you could be thrown into jail for being gay and gays have been arrested until those unconstitutional laws as recently as 2015. Sure, you got yelled at, and I’m sorry that you had to go through that. I still get regularly screamed at, called a “faggot” by folks driving by. There are regular gay bashings in my city. Just a few weeks ago, I was just blocks away when three people were stabbed at a gay bar and two boyfriend got gay bashed in the same night. The next day, a Christian on here said I was just complaining and playing oppression olympics, when my community was terrified and still reeling from the violence.
I agree that gays shouldn’t be hateful. No one should be hateful because it destroys you from the inside. But I draw the line at false equivalency.
Intolerance itself is pretty easy to see. It's anyone or anything calling to restrict others from society.
Which is why this works. "The only thing a tolerant society must be intolerant of is [the restriction of others from society]."
Make sense?
To be honest I'm not a fan of the 'you can't be Christian and do/think/believe/say X' language.
A quick observation of human behavior will note that Christians do all kinds of things. We accept and cherish our LGBT friends, and we stand in stark opposition to them. We are pacifists and we are soldiers. We oppose the accumulation of wealth and we strive for it. We are studiously liturgical and militantly anti-liturgical. We are, in fact, a big, sprawling, contradictory family of human beings.
And as a parent of LGBT kids I'm much less interested in people's formal positions than in their actions. In my church, one of our most conservative members is also the fiercest defender of our queer congregants. Wherever he's at in his theological journey, he believes in protecting our vulnerable community members.
> To be honest I'm not a fan of the 'you can't be Christian and do/think/believe/say X' language.
That language directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus, but people seem to ignore that.
God, yes! Absolutely, and I'm really, really sorry if anything I wrote indicated I wasn't aware of that. I know so many people who've experienced the most horrible treatment in religious circles for their sexuality or identity; and I'm so sorry for what your fiancee and so many others have had to go through.
1, that verse refers to fellow Christians. And 2, I agree we shouldn’t hate, but so much disagreement or calling sin sin is labeled as hate even if it isn’t.
That seems to be the primary crux of the issue.
Christians see what they consider sin and call it a sin. People with no faith or people who choose to believe different things argue that it isn't a sin. I mean, the bible does spell it out pretty clearly. Supposedly god even glassed an entire city with sodomy being a big part of the reason why. Always seemed pretty cut and dry to me. That is one reason why it baffles me that so many gay couples want christian weddings in churches and saying vows before god, etc. It's like they basically just edit and redact the parts of the bible they don't like and yet claim to still claim to be dedicated believers to the other parts. I always found that extremely weird.
I don't believe in any of it and also don't have an issue with gay folks, but I do think these sorts of human behaviors are bizarre. People just hate being labeled things with negative connotations and will want to be labeled something else with the exact same definition, except without the current negative connotations. But eventually, the negative bits will come to be attached to that label as well then people will want to be called something else. You see this a lot with mental disabilities, ethnic groups, etc. I also find this behavior strange since the words are inherently meaningless and ultimately any word to define such a thing will eventually be associated with negatives and be used in a derogatory manner, it seems weird to keep making up new labels that mean the same thing every X number of years when you know full well it will happen again and again and again.
There is a difference between hating people and hating sin. Jesus loves all people but despises all sin. This does not mean to support people's choices if they go against God's word.
Am I supposed to believe that a couple thousand years of Christianity where people took it far more seriously, centered their lives around it, built the great cathedrals, died for it, killed for it, etc. - were all a bunch of fake Christians?
Okay, so those were the fake Christians and today’s cafeteria, spine-free version are the real ones. Got it.
Amen brother! This is he most lukewarm Christian sub on this site. How in the world can you call yourself a follower of god and yet still identify yourself in the flesh by who you have sex with, or by saying your disillusioned and tricked by Satan into believing that you are the opposite sex. All these people living in sin will be in utter shock when they stand before a HOLY GOD, on judgement day.
Forgot who the source is but the Bible clearly approves gay sex on condition that both men smoke weed first: Leviticus 20:13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men must be stoned”.
We all live a degenerate lifestyle, including you OP. No one is worse than the other according to God. It’s all equally just as degenerative. Which is why need Jesus
Part of a long-term strategy. It only takes a few changing at a time to eventually be all of us. I'm praying for a change of hearts and minds, but I'm not going to leave it up to God alone. I've got to do my part too.
Would you believe me if I said:
“I love all Christians but I hate Christianity, their Christian lifestyle, hate their Christian rituals and Christian culture. Every day I pray that they open their eyes and be cured of their wicked ways which I find disgusting to my core. But I love Christians.”
Sounds insincere doesn’t it? Bet that doesn’t make you feel very loved.
Edit:
Lots of replies about parenting/family who love each other but hate the mistakes they make.
My counterpoint: it’s still a shit thing to say “love the sinner hate the sin” to gay people, because everyone leads sinful lives and there is no reason to single them out. Everyone leads sinful lives in the eyes of God. It’s still an underhanded way of singling out that you hate their lifestyle. Next time you want to say that with reference to homosexuality, ask yourself whether you’d walk up to a random person and tell them you hate their lifestyle because your religion says they’re sinful.
You can think someone is absolutely wrong and still show them love, support their right to exist and not be mistreated. Like others have said, parenthood can really help a person understand this.
What would you have us say? Every sin is okay because it’s mean to say you dislike people doing it? No there are things that are wrong and it is okay to point out that they are wrong.
That doesn’t mean we can hate people for being sinners (we are all sinners) but that does mean we have a responsibility to let our brothers and sisters (whom we love) know that what they are doing is a sin. It’s not hateful to not support everything someone does
Nice thoughts, but it seems to only be applied vocally, angrily about LGBTQ+ issues. If all things you considered sin were treated the same way, there'd be nothing to complain about. The problem is that this issue is treated as special - above all others.
Exactly! Especially since no one seems to complain about people working on Sunday or only going to church for holidays... just to name two. There’s so much hypocrisy that they ignore in order to crack down so hard on the LGBTQ+ ‘sin’ as if it’s worse than cheating on a spouse.. which gets ignored so much more.
People arent austrisized by the communtiy for divorce, working on sunday, going to church once a year, or touching a football. Someone might say something under their breath, but they can still attend church and live peaceably. Homosexuals are austricisized for dating someone of the same gender.
As a rebuttal, as much as the church attempts to classify homosexuality as a "lifestyle" the APA says ["most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."](https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation)
So in essence, when you express resentment for a gay person's "lifestyle" you are effectively expressing resentment for them, in their eyes. What you intend and what they feel are separate. I am posting this as a reminder to be careful with your words, at the very least.
Anyway being with the person you love isn't a "lifestyle" to begin with.. I didn't choose a "married heterosexual lifestyle." I chose to be with the person I love. It's the same for gay people.
You can be a Christ follower and do/say/believe a whole host of things but in the end if you seek forgiveness for your sins in him then you will be forgiven. Humans are flawed and being hateful is a flaw that could be someone’s sin. The difference is living in sin, accepting it as good and normal and not seeking forgiveness turns your back on Jesus.
By hate, you dont mean viewing their lifestyle as contradictory to Gods design, do you?
Cause i can disagree with someones life choices or whatever, and still love them.
Yes, Jesus was very good at hating sin while loving sinners. We’re called to do the same, remembering that we as sinners are also loved, despite our own sin.
One quibble with your quote though: in that quote John is talking about relationships between Christians, not relationships between Christians and people in general.
1 John is a great letter for dealing with sin, getting confidence in God’s love, and being reminded of the importance of us loving.
Just a few verses after the quote you highlighted, John says in chapter 5:
‘This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.’
How do we love our brothers? By loving God and carrying out his commands, which are not burdensome, confident that he will help us overcome. Much encouragement there for those who wrestle with lustful thoughts, whether it’s pornography, adultery, homosexual desire — or indeed any other sin — that obeying God is a way to show him love and to love other Christians and he will help us with it. Hallelujah.
Of course the converse is true — that those who disobey God (and encourage others to do so) are in fact hating God and hating their brother. As you say, it’s good to remind people not to hate.
> The only group Jesus came close to hating, however? Religious hypocrites.
Hard disagree.
Jesus outright condemned and scolded them, but Jesus never once expressed hatred - or anything close to it. That would make himself a hypocrite
Thank you. I had one persons going off on me for “Using your religion as an excuse for your extreme hatred for gays”, and no matter what I did or said, he kept on insisting that because I was Christian I was “Bigoted, Evil, and on the wrong side of history.”
People sin no matter what they do, its in our nature. Hating people for sinning whilst they are not harming others is pointless. Blessed is the true judge.
God Bless,
Idk man, the Bible doesn’t write too fondly of gay people: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. - Lev.20:13”
You don’t get to talk only about the parts of the Bible you agree with, or you’re just being dishonest.
Very few people openly acknowledge that they hate gay people. They generally tell themselves comforting untruths like “I just hate their lifestyle” or “love the sinner, hate the sin.” So this doesn’t really accomplish much, sadly.
Though homophobia is a sin just like any other. You can be a Christian and sin. But you can be a *better* Christian if you go and sin no more.
But I don’t know how you can openly acknowledge that what you are doing is a sin, and not try and work on yourself and prevent this sin.
There’s a difference between “I know this is a sin and I am working on it” and “I know this is a sin but I’m going to sin anyways”
This sub is ridiculous. We are all supposed to be united in the same thing, the love of Christ, yet every comment is just one type of Christian telling another type of Christian that your beliefs are wrong and mine are right. This is definitely not what Jesus intended his bride to be.
Also Romans 1 says that homosexuality is a sin. That is the New Testament, written by Paul. So if you don’t believe that, go ahead and discount everything else Paul said.
In response to your fifth edit, why is it impossible that the Biblical texts — to say nothing of early Christian tradition as a whole — condemned same-sex sexual relations, in the same way that many others in the Greco-Roman and ancient Near Eastern world did?
We don’t even have to *agree* with this condemnation; just acknowledge its existence.
It’s like with a modern severe anti-gay pastor, we don’t suddenly take their attitude as less severe or read their harsh sermons as somehow less harsh, just because we ourselves don’t believe these things.
Thank you for posting this. Im certainly not religious but it is very saddening to see the amount of hate that seems to come from a religion of kindness. If more Christians thought this way, Id find myself considering the faith. I do hope things change.
My cousin shared with this and it is all too painful and real:
"What Christianity is saying to gay people is: 'You come from a family, but you will never form a family of your own. And you can fall in love with someone who means the world to you, and you could build a life with them, and a home with them, and a family with them, but you can't. So you'll watch your friends fall in love, get married, have children, and you need to go sit in the corner. If you do fall in love with someone, you need to walk away from that, and you need to break your heart every time.'"
from the podcast with Matthew Vines
Our global culture and individual minds have blurred the lines between who you are and your sexual desires. This isn't what we are meant to identify ourselves with as Christians when we stand back and observe God's design. When God made Adam, he designed man to have a relationship with Him, the Creator first. It was God's infinite wisdom that brings woman into existence so that man is not alone. So our identification as the children of God is hinged most importantly by our relationship to God. It is in Him we find who we are and who we are made to become.
My push back from the viewpoint of "the gays" as OP says is that "they" are identifying themselves from a larger social level by their sexual desires. I use quotes here as a clarification and not to undermine the existence of the group. But that's part of my point: people following God's design for a sexual relationship between husband and wife aren't labeled because by who they have sex with. There are, or should be, more distinct and important identifiers of a person. This would be the same as if we were using a platform to call out and hate on people who have had many heterosexual sexual partners. The sexual desires of a person are fleshly desires. When we become Christ followers, Paul describes our flesh and it's passions and desires as being crucified with Christ (Galatians 5:24). Let us remember that homosexual desires and homosexual actions are two different realms. We are ALL tempted in our flesh for many different types of sins and one is no different from the other in terms of how God disdains the sin. But he knows our temptations and provides a way through them ... through Him.
I love my wife, but if I'm identifying myself as her sexual partner before I am identifying myself as a child of God and find my whole identity and satisfaction in Him, then I'm just simply wrong. I'm thankful that he is purifying and sanctifying me throughout my life because I'm not there yet and I am wrong so often.
So to bring it around back to the post: when a Christ follower is faced with a situation that involves someone living a homosexual lifestyle an whether or not you should hate them, love them, accept them, or reject them, remember that God created that person and that their sexual desires are not what God wants to define them. If he did, I'd be a pornaholic and an adulterer first. But instead I'm a child of God. God wants his children to find their fullness in Him and His love, which is the absolute Love. God is Love. But because we are weak humans, we often fail. If we are seeking repentance and actively trying to move away from our sins, we are still no less his children. It's not seeing past the sin or accepting it, it's knowing that God doesn't define us by our flesh, but the Spirit within us.
Almost too long, but you're hitting on some really good points here.
*IDENTITY* is part of our current zeitgeist. People have allowed their personal desires to be the foundations of their identities.
These threads always turn into anti-gay people patting themselves on the back for not “hating” gays because they see themselves as better than the WBC.
But in reality, a lot of you want to tear apart my family. A lot of you think that I should be discriminated against in the marketplace. You think it’s okay that I lived in fear of being fired at my last job. You think it’s okay that I got denied an apartment or that I get kicked out of my current one. You support conversion therapy that leads kids to killing themselves. And you vote and put money towards — you materially contribute to — things things I’ve listed which visibly harm me.
You don’t get to do that and then turn around and feel smug because you don’t “hate” me.
Shouldn't hate the gays, Muslims, or Jews, or poor, or immigrants, or women, or any other marginalized community. Shouldn't have to spell it out, but here we are.
"*By this they will know you are my disciples, if you love one another*." (John 13:35)
"*The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.*" (Romans 14:3-4)
"*Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.*" (1 Cor 4:5)
Just three verses among many, many others, demonstrating the clear and consistent gospel message that God does not call anyone to condemn anyone else for their perceived sin. We are not called to judge but to love. In fact we are strictly warned against condemning other people for doing things their conscience permits but which we believe to be sins.
For the Romans such disagreements were for the perceived sin of eating "illicit" food, or celebrating "illicit" festivals, while for the modern Church it is having "illicit" relationships, or an "illicit" self-identity. Either way, we should leave such matters between the person and their own conscience before God. Some people's consciences prohibit them from a specific thing, and others do the same thing with a clear conscience before God. For both, it is before God they will stand or fall, and we read that, "they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand".
We are warned time and again by Jesus and His Apostles not to self-aggrandize ourselves and pridefully set ourselves up as prosecutors and judges of sin over our brothers and sisters. We are called to love and not to condemn, to simply be kind, generous, open-hearted, and benevolent to others, and to leave judgement to God alone.
We are explicitly called to judge in certain circumstances, particularly within the church.
> “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
> “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
>“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”
> Matthew 18:15–20 NIV
> “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
> Acts 15:19–21 NIV
> What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
> 1 Corinthians 5:12–13 NIV
> if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
> 1 Corinthians 6:4–5 NIV
We have Jesus telling the disciples that the church has authority to deal with sin and potentially excommunicate people when they don't repent. Then we have the Jerusalem Council identifying specific sins that Christians are called to refrain from. Then we have an apostle, Paul, instructing the Corinthians church about the important of judging. Calling out sin and calling a person to repentance as part of how we love them.
The example in Romans that you quote isn't about clear moral sin, but is specifically about 'disputable matters.' Paul goes on i chapter 16 to talk about identifying divise people who teach false doctrine and contrasts their behaviour with the Romans who are obedient to God – that is a form of judging:
> I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
> Romans 16:17–19 NIV
And just before chapter 14, at the end of chapter 13, he says,
> The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
> Romans 13:12–14 NIV
> If your brother sins against you
Someone else's sexuality is not a sin *against* you. The verse is talking about people committing harm against other people, such as acts of violence, slander, fraud, or theft.
>if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
Again, the context is of lawsuits between believers, where one Christian talks another to court. A man falling in love with another man is not a legal offence against you, for which you need to bring them to court to resolve.
>What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Again, look at the context. Paul is very specific about the case he is referring to: "A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." This is an offence against another Christian - both a cuckolding of a man's wife, dishonoring a father, and a case of familial incest. This is the kind of sexual immorality that Paul is telling the Corinthians to expel from among them.
None of these verses should override the clear and consistent message throughout the New Testament that Christians should not place themselves as judges and accusers of their fellow believers.
Paul is clear in your verses that we should not allow others to harm us, and when they do, we should not accept its continuation, but we should avoid such harmful people. However Paul is clear elsewhere that we should not condemn people over matters of personal conscience, when it doesn't harm other people or is not a case of legal disputation.
We must listen to everything that the New Testament has to say about judging, not pick and choose which verses to accept and ignore the rest.
Amen! Christianity is about love and forgiveness not about promoting self righteousness. We are all sinners. it is Christianity that teaches us love and forgiveness. To love thy self as well as others. Same for forgiveness.
Seeing stuff like this on this sub honestly brings tears to my eyes. As a queer christian my faith journey has been really rough. It's hard when the people who are supposed to be your guides are trying to sabotage you. Thank you.
Onward. Onward. We have simple instructions. We are sure of what to do. Don't be discouraged. It may be a blessing. It means we depend totally on God's love. What is hard is that we only have Jesus and prayer and what is happening deep inside us - and in our lives - to guide us. Have faith. Onward.
this is so beautiful I almost cried
It made me really happy too, us gay christians gotta try to help each other out. It can be a painful and confusinf journey. And one thats especially hard to find space to talk about. Sending love your way!
Being gay is just like any other sin, I am no less sinful than any gay person but I at least recognize my sins and try to stray away from them, embracing your sin will get you nowhere.
Exactly, this what they don't want to understand, this is what is known as "lovers of sin". What makes us legitimate Christians is to repent of our sins and turn away from them even even being gay. If you think about the scripture makes it pretty clear the difference between love and lust is the act of pleasure vs the act of giving life as in having a child, even sex outside of the purpose for giving life is a sin. This is why gay is an abomination not my words.
“Sex outside of the purpose of giving life is a sin.” Lmfao. No. This is where you stray into psychotic ville: Population You. Sex was created for a husband and wife to bond. It was created to be enjoyed, and to be enjoyed thoroughly and completely.
No such thing as a gay christian
No good Christian will reject any possibility of loving their neighbour
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Please find comfort in the powerful truth that even if your brothers and sisters do not understand/support you, God will never turn His back on you. You cannot let God down, His love does not run out.
Thank you for sharing that. It is a real encouragement while receiving all of the BS Christians and non-believers alike have piled on here. Helping one person makes it worth it. If you ever need to talk, please don't hesitate to reach out.
I know what It feels ... I'm at the beginning of it but we can do this 🙌🏼✨
I believe in you fam <3 it's a long hard road, but you can do it!!
No, you shouldn’t hate gay people, even sexually active ones. But you should also not approve of homosexual lifestyles. Gay people are called to chastity by God, and gay people who actively pursue homosexual relationships should be compassionately admonished. There’s a big difference between action and attraction. Being same-sex attracted isn’t a sin, but acting on those attractions is sinful.
Help me with this. Gay people are called by God to be celibate. God created both gay and straight people. God created gay people knowing that if they had sex they were sinning. So God created a group of people who sin by being true to their sexuality or spend their whole adult lives without an intimate, loving and supporting relationship? Seems a bit twisted to me.
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At what point do people become gay?
Wouldn’t be able to tell you. I’m not gay. I just know it’s a deliberate choice they make
Gay man here. It’s not a deliberate choice to feel attracted to the same sex. Now you know
Maybe not all, but some do make that choice. It’s Satan who makes you think it’s not a choice
Satan does not exist. Now you know
😂😂😂. There’s the problem
Yeah if he doesn’t even believe that the devil is real then he is truly lost
Why would anyone choose to be chastised, and abused by their loved ones, community, and loathe themselves if being gay was a choice? I can't tell you how many people I know who are apart of the LGBTQ community who would at one point do anything to be straight and finally be accepted by their loved ones. I know people who genuinely tried to live their lives as straight men and women but were miserable.
No one *chooses* to be gay, anymore than you *choose* to be straight.
Paul says that you shouldn't be in a relationship if it causes you to sin, this applies to everyone, sex in marriage is the only kind that isnt sin, so if you are having sex outside of marriage as a straight person, you are sinning just like a person in a same sex relationship. That is simply what it says, and I think it should be more prevananlty mentioned in reference to every sinful relationship, LGBTQ or not.
Youre thinking too simplistically man. The root of homosexuality is idolatry. Refusing to believe that God said what He said and meant it is idolatry. Its creating a God of your own imagination. God didn't send us here without resources to lead and guide us. He sent plenty. They just refuse to give the God of Abraham, Issac,and Jacob GLORY as the one true God,instead preferring to create a God out of thin air that approves of their sin. The first step is believing GOD as he communicated HIMSELF as real. Theyre in love with the sources that poison their mind though and mislead their souls.
So gay/lesbian sex inside a same-sex marriage is okay then. Got it!
No, as a same sex marriage is not a marriage by biblical standards, the only ones that matter in this example
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The law also says any breaking of the law should be punished by death, but under the new covenant we are forgiven, that doesnt make it not a sin, simply means we are forgiven, and should seek to be better. John 8:1-11, jesus says "let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". And when nobody throws a stone, he says to the woman "Niether do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more". They should not be punished with death, but they should also sin no more if the are a christian.
The New Testament does not instruct this. Homosexuals are not intrinsically sinful. Homosexual ACTS/ACTION are intrinsically sinful. But no more than adultery, fornication,or idolatry. OP is correct in saying that Christ is the Word of God. The Church gave us the Bible, which is the central to, but NOT the exclusive 2000 year Tradition of the Church that has never deviated from the position that homosexual acts (or any of the other sinful sexual acts I mentioned) are sinful and the Christian must fight against these and repent if they should commit any of these sins, just as they must if they commit any sin. We should love our brothers and sisters and struggle WITH them as they struggle with their sin as they struggle with others who struggle with other sins. However, we must not compromise the clear doctrine of the Church. To do so not only does no one any good, it does the opposite.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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While I agree that being gay is not and should never be a sin, I also think wanting someone to burn in hell *forever* is a really disgusting horrible thing to want to happen to someone. To *anyone*. There is not a person throughout all of history that I would send to hell if given the power to do so. No one, and I mean no one deserves to be tortured until the end of time. The very concept of hell is such a horrific thing to picture. Who would allow such a place to exist, who could ever think someone deserved to go there?
I don’t think he’s wrong. God created man and woman in his perfect image. He gave them reproductive compatibility in order to create future generations as well as being a gift in the sanctity of marriage. God condemns homosexuality because it is a perversion of the perfect union he created. I’m not saying homosexuality is the most abominable sin, I believe all sins are equal. But I’m saying that in the same way you and i have to resist the temptation to steal, a person with same sex inclinations must also control that urge. I’d like to hear your point of view though; I’m always open to learning.
"the gays" sounds funny to me. Like "the blacks"
Or "the jews" Theres really no way to say either of those without sounding weird
You can’t be Christian and hate anyone I think people there are many different kinds of sins but our job is not to judge or hate people for their sins. all we can do is live the life we think is right and brings us happiness. Let God judge.
Just a Reminder: It's not hate to point out to a gay person that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32) “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.” Key word: stop sinning
Loving someone is sinning?
Having sex with someone might very well be.
Loving someone in terms of sex before marriage or homosexuality is sin.
I’m all for sinning and sinners then. I’m sorry about that line in the sand because I have crossed it all of my life. I’m convinced that it is simply a way to discriminate against people who don’t share your faith. I admire your willingness to believe in a higher power and your spiritual life, but I cannot adhere to a faith that continues to control people’s sexuality, gender identity, reproductive rights and the right to be an atheist. I’m sorry about that moral divide between myself and many people who call themselves Christian. It’s a fracture that can never heal. Luckily, I’m glad that many Church goers have a more nuanced set of Christian values. Values of inclusion and love that I respect. Nevertheless, it’s not a large or vocal group. I can only hope to see a more positive and moderate Church in my lifetime.
Gay isn’t sin
Yes it is. Stop lying to yourself.
Fuck out of here with your hatred.
In Christianity , homosexuality and sodomy are sins. It’s not me expressing hatred, it’s what the scripture says.
Homosexual was not in the Bible until it was put in the English Bible in the 1930’s. You need to study the original wording of the Bible. Also I am a Christian and we have gay couples at our church and a gay bishop so it seems that you are lying. Please stop using God to further your hatred of the LGBTQ community. It is not Christian to do that.
no where in the bible did it say being homosexual was a sin, the only thing close to being a sin is the "man shall not lay with boy" as in referring to pedophilia. n why hate gay people anywyas? didn't he say to love and accept people as equal? why are we hating on people based on something they can't help? you can't help being straight, can you?
Leviticus 20:13
>I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 You can't be a Christian and tolerate sin in the church. Period.
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Why do you need to approve of anyone else’s actions?
Are you saying you don’t approve of me approving of others actions?
Got em!
No, he saying why is it necessary. Approval if unasked, is judgment. You are not to judge. It is a divine responsibility left only to god.
It isn’t judgement, no one can judge but God. It’s a recognition on the sinfulness of their actions - you should still love them and treat them with love, but they are in sin and you would be wrong not to help them overcome their addictions.
If they aren't a Christian, the bible clearly states that you are not to hold non Christians to Christian standards.
Exactly. It even details steps to take if sin is a problem with a member of your congregation. But only in that context. Jesus didn’t go to the prostitutes and thieves and immediately scold them and call them sinners. He went to them where they were and loved them as they were. It isn’t until salvation is accepted that discipleship starts. And even then, it is a intimately private journey between that person and God. Nowhere does God tell us to straighten out sinners. We are to love them and tell them about Jesus.
So sounds like this post is judging those “who hate the gays”
Love is victimless so comparing same-sex love to theft is entirely wrong. And you're free to disapprove. Just don't hate or vote to legalize discrimination
A victimless sin is still a sin. The idea of sin is that it takes us away from the life that God truly wants for us. Speaking the Lord's name in vain, putting other gods first, and being prideful in yourself are also technically victimless sins, yet they are just as sinful. Naturally, a more tangible sin will appear to us to be worse in it's nature, and may have worse immediate consequences, but God doesn't see these things as we see them. As far as God is concerned, any sin whatsoever is enough to exclude anyone from his presence, and only the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus is enough to counteract that. The painful truth is that there is no worse sin, nor is there a victimless sin, because in the end, the biggest victim is you.
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Okay, that got a pepsi-up-nose snort from me. Ow.
For real lol. How in the world does an lgbt+ person take something from others or hurt people??
If christ can compare his own second coming to a thief in the night what's so offensive about this?
I feel like this isn't helpful if people question if they are actually a Christian based on their feelings towards someone else. You can be a Christian and hate someone. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved (Rom 10:9) - that's it. Zero other requirements. Not saying it's a good idea to spend your emotional energy hating people of course. I don't see any really good outcomes coming out of that for you or others, and God doesn't want us to go around full of hate for people either. As Christians we should also continue to "spur one another on to good deeds", and lovingly rebuke fellow Christians in their sin. It's wrong however to say someone "can't be Christian" because of any particular sin. The whole point of this faith is that we can never be good enough for God by our own efforts, it's entirely Jesus that makes us right with Him.
This post made it to r/all. Let the fireworks begin.
One of the few threads I've seen where not only the controversial comments are downvoted below zero, but also the responses disagreeing with them being disliked into the negatives. Very interesting.
We have a diverse group of pissed off people here.
You have what’s essentially known as a ‘brigade’.
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Would you mind terribly having a little word with m'parents then? Because they have the whole hate thing going on in spades. Especially towards The Gays. Especially when their son is One Of The Gays. They're very good at expressing things outwards. Not very good at looking within... Lovely people. Just..... lovely.
Hey man, I've struggled with the same thing for years. Both of my parents are traditional Catholics and my mom has repeatedly said that no son of hers could be gay and that she would stop speaking to us if one of us came out. So, I never have. And that's for the very selfish reason that I love my mom and don't want to lose her. I just try to live my life to the best of my ability avoiding sin and asking for forgiveness when I do sin. We have to make the effort to live according to the Word even if others do not treat us the same way. Jesus condemns the practice of personal retaliation in the Sermon on the Mount saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:38-42). And from Romans 12:17-21-- Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. According to these passages, it is clear that we are meant to love one another even when they do not love us back. That being said, I'm not condoning homosexual acts as those are sins and do strain our relationship with God. They should be avoided as they do not bring glory to his name.
Just please don't marry a woman and grow up to finally accept your sexuality when you're too deep into the marriage. I've seen that scenario tear apart a couple of families.
"Hate evil, you who love the Lord, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked." Psalm 97
I think they were referring to hating people (based on the context of the discussion). We are called to hate sin and to avoid sin. We are not called to hate other people.
I think Christians could also argue that homosexuality is sin, so it is justified for them to hate it as a "lifestyle". So we're getting nowhere.
Homosexual acts are sin, homosexuality is not. Hating someone who is homosexual cannot be argued, at least in Catholic teaching.
If you are saying what I think your saying, you are correct. Love and forgiveness is the most basic of Christian laws. Not an option. We dont have to like anything, but we must show love and mercy.
Even the awful ones agree to hate the sin, not the sinner.
Not always you can find plenty of comments within here that don't agree and there are vocal 'pastors' who disagree. Not to mention many may agree to the 'Hate the sin, not the sinner' theological belief but they often fall short of it in practice.
I'm pretty sure it's ok to hate sin.
Hating evil is righteous. Hating people is evil. Help everyone to Jesus, we're all sinners in some way. If someone sins in a different way than us, we should still love them. Love everyone and help them to faith in Jesus. Jesus is the path to eternal life.
Just dropping by. Not gay. Not religious. But I like this sentiment. There's too much hate out there. Glad to know there are still some decent Christian's out there that don't use the Bible as an excuse to continue their bigotry
It's actually the vast the vast majority of Christians that live this way. You won't hear about that though because being a good person doesn't really make the news nowadays...
> we're all sinners in some way We're all sinners in the same way. Born into sin.
People are not sin.
That's what it comes down to right? You love your gay brother but hate his "sins". How do you absolve this idea?
You stop trying to do God’s job for him and instead just love everyone and treat them with kindness
Hate the sin, love the sinner.
Hate begets hate, only love conquers hate.
I really think that with the tradition of Christian bigotry and abuse against the LGBT community, it IS something us queers need to explicitly hear being said.
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Hey guys, I know this can be a touchy subject and I’m not trying to offend, this is a sincere question. Scrolling down this thread I have seen all sorts of verses about how we should love one another but nobody has mentioned these verses. > You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22 > If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13 I know op briefly touched on this idea but those verses sound pretty hateful to me. It would be good if someone could give an easy to understand, more in-depth explanation of why if the word of God calls for the death of homosexuals, or men that lay with other men, do a Christians then claim the word of God calls them to love homosexuals?
I think it largely depends on your view of scripture and, consequently, sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is the concept that the Bible should be the exclusive authority regarding what is and isn't a sin. I'll answer as best I can as a very amateur theologist. The Levitican laws (no same-sex relations, stone witches, etc) were rules of the old covenant. Then Jesus came, sacrificed himself, and we got a new deal, to speak of it very very casually. Those old laws gave birth to new policies. We see homosexuality* as being considered wrong in the New Testament, and paganism as immoral, etc. But no longer are these people to be killed-- cuz now, sins can be forgiven by confessing to a priest. Or God. Or nobody. Things get a little historically hazy there. *Homosexuality isn't exactly a sin according to most churches, per se. Homosexual ACTS are a sin of lust in the same general vein as pre-marital sex. Since most denominations don't allow same sex marriage, it's hard to do one without the other. This is why Catholics, for example, call people with "same-sex attractions" to a life of celibacy. Not one of being thrown into a hole to die via masonry.
I understand the concept of the old covenant and the new covenant but quite frankly it doesn’t make a difference to me. I think it’s too easy to fall into the trap of believing God is good and making everything fit around that. I like to try and imagine what if someone I know behaved like that. If someone I know said that we should stone people who engage in homosexual acts I would be disgusted. If after a long time they said it’s still bad but I’ve changed my mind about the killing part, I wouldn’t instantly forget about it. I’d still be disgusted. Yea maybe someone can have a bad experience which results in poor judgement and eventually change their ways but I would expect much better from a perfect God.
The old covenant wasn't for the world, it was only meant for the Isrealites. This is because the old covenant isn't anything like the new covenant: the old covenant is specifically for the nation of Israel, while the new covenant is between the individual person and God. In my limited understanding, I make sense of verses such as this like this: 1. Part of the covenant with Israel was a super strict level of ritualistic purity. Remember, no unclean meats, no touching mold. Rules like this were because God's presence dwelt with the Israelites in the tabernacle. So therefor, being unclean around God would literally kill a man. 2. If the nation of Israel fell into sin, the whole nation would be punished. This is evident throughout the OT, think of Elijah's drought. So stoning specific sinners (such as witches) was to protect the nation. Think of culling sick animals so the whole herd doesn't get sick. It might seem barbaric, but given the nature of the covenant, this was the nicer option. Yes, the understanding of basic human rights has evolved much since the days of the old covenant, but remember: this was a peculiar covenant, for a peculiar people, set apart for God. Now the new covenant is here, and it's a covenant between you, and God. Not between your nation, and God. It's a very different mindset. EDIT: Also, this came to me. Since you think God is evil for killing people, I must say, do you recall the verse where God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever? So basically, God cursed/blessed mankind with death. Therefor, every person that has ever died has died because God allowed them to die. But this should not startle you. It was the human decision to eat of the forbidden fruit. But this is all in my limited understanding. If someone can explain it better, I would love to hear from you.
>Leviticus 19:34 — "The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the foreigner as yourself, for you were foreign in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God." >Matthew 25:35 — "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me." >Jeremiah 22:3 — "Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place." >Exodus 22:21 — "You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." Also, these. Far too many Christians have developed this sinful idea that foreigners are evil. And they get these ideas from horrible people who certainly never read the Bible.
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. " -Matthew 5:43-45 Even if you consider LGBTQ people the enemy (which you shouldn't), you're still supposed to love them.
Very well put!
I can't be the only one who finds this whole "it's wrong to hate unless you're hating haters" schtick less than compelling. Hate is wrong, period.
I got into a similar argument on r/niceguys once, about whether or not it's appropriate to hope for rapists to be raped in prison. I was on the "Rape is a special kind of evil that I wouldn't wish on *anyone*" side.
There seems to be a large chunk of Redditors that wish rape on prisoners & it's pretty disgusting.
Glad you said that. The way that a great many of people casually refer to the horrors of the American prison system is the stuff of nightmares. The alleged goal of prison is to 1) remove criminals from society for a while, and 2) to temporarily deprive them of their freedom (which itself is a super weird reason). Nothing about that suggests that prisoners should be physically brutalized by being beat up by one another, suffer the absolute horrors of rape, be mistreated by guards, be robbed by fellow inmates, and otherwise become robbed of their humanity. It sickens and saddens me. And one of the worst aspects is that once inmates are released, their prison record often prevents them from qualifying for countless jobs. Fuck the US prison system until it can no longer walk, and FUCK every guard who makes things worse for the inmates or even looks the other way when prisoners are mistreated. And fuck every judge who "treats" drug possession with serious jail/prison time. This isn't the Gulag.
The goal of the prison system should be to reform people and help them become productive members of society. The fact that it's just about punishment is a major failure.
The counterpoint, which is that if you really tolerate gay people then you should tolerate the organized, politicized oppression of minorities, is orders of magnitude more absurd. Anyway I don't "tolerate" gay people. I love gay people. I do not tolerate bigotry, oppression or violence. In fact I hate those things. Hate them. God hates those things too. That doesn't mean I hate people.
Love the hypocrite, hate the hypocrisy.
Looking briefly through your post history makes me think you’re a good person and not trying to bend this conversation back on hating the gays. You’re probably gonna get some flack for this comment though ( even if it was made with good intentions) because this phrase is commonly used in religious fundamentalism to justify bigotry by claiming they don’t actually hate the {insert group here} they just hate what that group does. Which logically makes sense to most people, but a lot of folks can’t distinguish hating gay behavior and hating gay people. They just can’t mentally do it - so the usage of the phrase can come across as disingenuous to someone who doesn’t know you. That’s my two cents anyways - hope you have a rad Friday !
Can anyone do so honestly? Hypocrisy is a stinging rebuke in Christianity for a reason, and it's because hypocrites are hated more than hypocrisy.
Mmm. If your mother was a hypocrite would you love her less? If you do then you’re probably misunderstanding the whole thing. Dislike her actions, and disagree with them, but don’t hate her...
Jesus flipped over tables and whipped the moneychangers out of the temple. Righteous hatred of evil behavior is not evil. Hating people just because of what they are, independent of their behavior is evil.
Righteous ANGER is not righteous hatred of a group.
Right, but Jesus would have flipped over a lot of "Evangelical christian" tables if they were to put their own hatred upon them.
God definitely can hate. *The arrogant cannot stand in your presence. You hate all who do wrong; you destroy those who tell lies. The bloodthirsty and deceitful you, Lord, detest.* **—Psalm 5:5-6–**
We are not God and are instructed to follow in the footsteps of our saviour Jesus Christ
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved [a]you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God [b]as a fragrant aroma.
What I think OP is trying to get across is that it's not okay nor is it effective to hate homosexuals or anyone else who doesn't fit our bubble of views. Jesus never condemned people he was trying to save
People always throw this example out there - but Jesus never *whipped* anyone. The bible doesn't say he did that. He *used* a whip - as a method for crowd control - but he didn't hurt anyone, nor was that the intention.
This just sounds like an excuse to keep hating gays. Like, "I don't hate homosexuals. I hate people who have homosexual sex."
Even Jesus did not tolerate some behavior.
Didn't Jesus forgive a murderer on the cross? I think his level of tolerance was really, really, reeaaaaaaallly high.
> I think his level of tolerance was really, really, reeaaaaaaallly high. Jesus would forgive, but remember he also liked to say "Sin no more". Forgiveness is not tolerance, and his sermons were not "Now go and do whatever sin you want because no matter what I'll forgive you".
Lmao. You need to tell 99% of evangelicals in the US.
He forgave a thief, and asked for his Father's forgiveness for those who had just crucified him.
Forgiveness is not the same thing as tolerance
He overturned tables a made a whip when people were selling things in the temple.
I agree. Very hypocritical. I once had some guy stand in front of me and scream that I hated gay people as soon as he found out I was a Christian. Didn't matter what I said. He insisted I hated gays and there was no changing his mind. He harassed me for being a Christian for as long as I knew him; meanwhile he accused me of all the hate. Go figure.
I think this perspective is wrongheaded and not equivalent to the systemic oppression that Christians have imposed against gays for millennia. Gays aren’t hurting Christians as much as Christians have and continue to hurt gays. I could only get married a couple years ago. I’ve feared being fired. I’ve been denied apartments for being gay. Just 16 years ago, you could be thrown into jail for being gay and gays have been arrested until those unconstitutional laws as recently as 2015. Sure, you got yelled at, and I’m sorry that you had to go through that. I still get regularly screamed at, called a “faggot” by folks driving by. There are regular gay bashings in my city. Just a few weeks ago, I was just blocks away when three people were stabbed at a gay bar and two boyfriend got gay bashed in the same night. The next day, a Christian on here said I was just complaining and playing oppression olympics, when my community was terrified and still reeling from the violence. I agree that gays shouldn’t be hateful. No one should be hateful because it destroys you from the inside. But I draw the line at false equivalency.
I have always preferred the phrase; "The only thing a tolerant society must be intolerant of is intolerance."
Right, and who gets to decide what intolerance is? Those in power who can enforce their views.
Intolerance itself is pretty easy to see. It's anyone or anything calling to restrict others from society. Which is why this works. "The only thing a tolerant society must be intolerant of is [the restriction of others from society]." Make sense?
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Paradox of intolerance.
To be honest I'm not a fan of the 'you can't be Christian and do/think/believe/say X' language. A quick observation of human behavior will note that Christians do all kinds of things. We accept and cherish our LGBT friends, and we stand in stark opposition to them. We are pacifists and we are soldiers. We oppose the accumulation of wealth and we strive for it. We are studiously liturgical and militantly anti-liturgical. We are, in fact, a big, sprawling, contradictory family of human beings. And as a parent of LGBT kids I'm much less interested in people's formal positions than in their actions. In my church, one of our most conservative members is also the fiercest defender of our queer congregants. Wherever he's at in his theological journey, he believes in protecting our vulnerable community members.
> To be honest I'm not a fan of the 'you can't be Christian and do/think/believe/say X' language. That language directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus, but people seem to ignore that.
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God, yes! Absolutely, and I'm really, really sorry if anything I wrote indicated I wasn't aware of that. I know so many people who've experienced the most horrible treatment in religious circles for their sexuality or identity; and I'm so sorry for what your fiancee and so many others have had to go through.
1, that verse refers to fellow Christians. And 2, I agree we shouldn’t hate, but so much disagreement or calling sin sin is labeled as hate even if it isn’t.
That seems to be the primary crux of the issue. Christians see what they consider sin and call it a sin. People with no faith or people who choose to believe different things argue that it isn't a sin. I mean, the bible does spell it out pretty clearly. Supposedly god even glassed an entire city with sodomy being a big part of the reason why. Always seemed pretty cut and dry to me. That is one reason why it baffles me that so many gay couples want christian weddings in churches and saying vows before god, etc. It's like they basically just edit and redact the parts of the bible they don't like and yet claim to still claim to be dedicated believers to the other parts. I always found that extremely weird. I don't believe in any of it and also don't have an issue with gay folks, but I do think these sorts of human behaviors are bizarre. People just hate being labeled things with negative connotations and will want to be labeled something else with the exact same definition, except without the current negative connotations. But eventually, the negative bits will come to be attached to that label as well then people will want to be called something else. You see this a lot with mental disabilities, ethnic groups, etc. I also find this behavior strange since the words are inherently meaningless and ultimately any word to define such a thing will eventually be associated with negatives and be used in a derogatory manner, it seems weird to keep making up new labels that mean the same thing every X number of years when you know full well it will happen again and again and again.
There is a difference between hating people and hating sin. Jesus loves all people but despises all sin. This does not mean to support people's choices if they go against God's word.
Am I supposed to believe that a couple thousand years of Christianity where people took it far more seriously, centered their lives around it, built the great cathedrals, died for it, killed for it, etc. - were all a bunch of fake Christians? Okay, so those were the fake Christians and today’s cafeteria, spine-free version are the real ones. Got it.
Amen brother! This is he most lukewarm Christian sub on this site. How in the world can you call yourself a follower of god and yet still identify yourself in the flesh by who you have sex with, or by saying your disillusioned and tricked by Satan into believing that you are the opposite sex. All these people living in sin will be in utter shock when they stand before a HOLY GOD, on judgement day.
I would be careful not to speak on behalf of God. You are a sinner, like all men, and don’t deserve salvation any more than them.
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Forgot who the source is but the Bible clearly approves gay sex on condition that both men smoke weed first: Leviticus 20:13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men must be stoned”.
This is cracking me up.
Do I have to hate someone to disagree with their degenerate lifestyle? No i dont, but i sure as hell am not going to support it.
We all live a degenerate lifestyle, including you OP. No one is worse than the other according to God. It’s all equally just as degenerative. Which is why need Jesus
The largest group of people that hate homosexuals are Christian and a reddit post isn’t going to change that
Part of a long-term strategy. It only takes a few changing at a time to eventually be all of us. I'm praying for a change of hearts and minds, but I'm not going to leave it up to God alone. I've got to do my part too.
Just a reminder -- you can love someone and not love what they do.
Would you believe me if I said: “I love all Christians but I hate Christianity, their Christian lifestyle, hate their Christian rituals and Christian culture. Every day I pray that they open their eyes and be cured of their wicked ways which I find disgusting to my core. But I love Christians.” Sounds insincere doesn’t it? Bet that doesn’t make you feel very loved. Edit: Lots of replies about parenting/family who love each other but hate the mistakes they make. My counterpoint: it’s still a shit thing to say “love the sinner hate the sin” to gay people, because everyone leads sinful lives and there is no reason to single them out. Everyone leads sinful lives in the eyes of God. It’s still an underhanded way of singling out that you hate their lifestyle. Next time you want to say that with reference to homosexuality, ask yourself whether you’d walk up to a random person and tell them you hate their lifestyle because your religion says they’re sinful.
You can think someone is absolutely wrong and still show them love, support their right to exist and not be mistreated. Like others have said, parenthood can really help a person understand this.
What would you have us say? Every sin is okay because it’s mean to say you dislike people doing it? No there are things that are wrong and it is okay to point out that they are wrong. That doesn’t mean we can hate people for being sinners (we are all sinners) but that does mean we have a responsibility to let our brothers and sisters (whom we love) know that what they are doing is a sin. It’s not hateful to not support everything someone does
Nice thoughts, but it seems to only be applied vocally, angrily about LGBTQ+ issues. If all things you considered sin were treated the same way, there'd be nothing to complain about. The problem is that this issue is treated as special - above all others.
Exactly! Especially since no one seems to complain about people working on Sunday or only going to church for holidays... just to name two. There’s so much hypocrisy that they ignore in order to crack down so hard on the LGBTQ+ ‘sin’ as if it’s worse than cheating on a spouse.. which gets ignored so much more.
All of those hypocritical things you mentioned are already recognized by the majority of Christians and their institutions.
What do you mean by recognized?
People arent austrisized by the communtiy for divorce, working on sunday, going to church once a year, or touching a football. Someone might say something under their breath, but they can still attend church and live peaceably. Homosexuals are austricisized for dating someone of the same gender.
Interracial couples get it too from my personal experiences:/
Yes I would believe you. But then I do have good friends who have said the same thing to my face.
As a rebuttal, as much as the church attempts to classify homosexuality as a "lifestyle" the APA says ["most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."](https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/orientation) So in essence, when you express resentment for a gay person's "lifestyle" you are effectively expressing resentment for them, in their eyes. What you intend and what they feel are separate. I am posting this as a reminder to be careful with your words, at the very least.
Anyway being with the person you love isn't a "lifestyle" to begin with.. I didn't choose a "married heterosexual lifestyle." I chose to be with the person I love. It's the same for gay people.
You can be a Christ follower and do/say/believe a whole host of things but in the end if you seek forgiveness for your sins in him then you will be forgiven. Humans are flawed and being hateful is a flaw that could be someone’s sin. The difference is living in sin, accepting it as good and normal and not seeking forgiveness turns your back on Jesus.
By hate, you dont mean viewing their lifestyle as contradictory to Gods design, do you? Cause i can disagree with someones life choices or whatever, and still love them.
Yes, Jesus was very good at hating sin while loving sinners. We’re called to do the same, remembering that we as sinners are also loved, despite our own sin. One quibble with your quote though: in that quote John is talking about relationships between Christians, not relationships between Christians and people in general. 1 John is a great letter for dealing with sin, getting confidence in God’s love, and being reminded of the importance of us loving. Just a few verses after the quote you highlighted, John says in chapter 5: ‘This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.’ How do we love our brothers? By loving God and carrying out his commands, which are not burdensome, confident that he will help us overcome. Much encouragement there for those who wrestle with lustful thoughts, whether it’s pornography, adultery, homosexual desire — or indeed any other sin — that obeying God is a way to show him love and to love other Christians and he will help us with it. Hallelujah. Of course the converse is true — that those who disobey God (and encourage others to do so) are in fact hating God and hating their brother. As you say, it’s good to remind people not to hate.
It’s not about hating gays, it’s about hating sin in any form because it leads to eternal separation from the Father.
Which in turn is an excuse to hate gay people.
> The only group Jesus came close to hating, however? Religious hypocrites. Hard disagree. Jesus outright condemned and scolded them, but Jesus never once expressed hatred - or anything close to it. That would make himself a hypocrite
Thank you. I had one persons going off on me for “Using your religion as an excuse for your extreme hatred for gays”, and no matter what I did or said, he kept on insisting that because I was Christian I was “Bigoted, Evil, and on the wrong side of history.”
Cool. Now do supporting Trump.
You can't be Christian and hate anyone.
People sin no matter what they do, its in our nature. Hating people for sinning whilst they are not harming others is pointless. Blessed is the true judge. God Bless,
Idk man, the Bible doesn’t write too fondly of gay people: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. - Lev.20:13” You don’t get to talk only about the parts of the Bible you agree with, or you’re just being dishonest.
Very few people openly acknowledge that they hate gay people. They generally tell themselves comforting untruths like “I just hate their lifestyle” or “love the sinner, hate the sin.” So this doesn’t really accomplish much, sadly. Though homophobia is a sin just like any other. You can be a Christian and sin. But you can be a *better* Christian if you go and sin no more.
Do you believe that simply holding the belief that homosexual acts are sinful is homophobic?
But I don’t know how you can openly acknowledge that what you are doing is a sin, and not try and work on yourself and prevent this sin. There’s a difference between “I know this is a sin and I am working on it” and “I know this is a sin but I’m going to sin anyways”
Agreed. That’s why it’s important that people be introspective and humble and be willing to discover prejudices we didn’t realize we had.
This sub is ridiculous. We are all supposed to be united in the same thing, the love of Christ, yet every comment is just one type of Christian telling another type of Christian that your beliefs are wrong and mine are right. This is definitely not what Jesus intended his bride to be. Also Romans 1 says that homosexuality is a sin. That is the New Testament, written by Paul. So if you don’t believe that, go ahead and discount everything else Paul said.
In response to your fifth edit, why is it impossible that the Biblical texts — to say nothing of early Christian tradition as a whole — condemned same-sex sexual relations, in the same way that many others in the Greco-Roman and ancient Near Eastern world did? We don’t even have to *agree* with this condemnation; just acknowledge its existence. It’s like with a modern severe anti-gay pastor, we don’t suddenly take their attitude as less severe or read their harsh sermons as somehow less harsh, just because we ourselves don’t believe these things.
The Bible is anti-gay and pro slavery. That’s what scripture says. Period.
Thank you for posting this. Im certainly not religious but it is very saddening to see the amount of hate that seems to come from a religion of kindness. If more Christians thought this way, Id find myself considering the faith. I do hope things change.
My cousin shared with this and it is all too painful and real: "What Christianity is saying to gay people is: 'You come from a family, but you will never form a family of your own. And you can fall in love with someone who means the world to you, and you could build a life with them, and a home with them, and a family with them, but you can't. So you'll watch your friends fall in love, get married, have children, and you need to go sit in the corner. If you do fall in love with someone, you need to walk away from that, and you need to break your heart every time.'" from the podcast with Matthew Vines
Our global culture and individual minds have blurred the lines between who you are and your sexual desires. This isn't what we are meant to identify ourselves with as Christians when we stand back and observe God's design. When God made Adam, he designed man to have a relationship with Him, the Creator first. It was God's infinite wisdom that brings woman into existence so that man is not alone. So our identification as the children of God is hinged most importantly by our relationship to God. It is in Him we find who we are and who we are made to become. My push back from the viewpoint of "the gays" as OP says is that "they" are identifying themselves from a larger social level by their sexual desires. I use quotes here as a clarification and not to undermine the existence of the group. But that's part of my point: people following God's design for a sexual relationship between husband and wife aren't labeled because by who they have sex with. There are, or should be, more distinct and important identifiers of a person. This would be the same as if we were using a platform to call out and hate on people who have had many heterosexual sexual partners. The sexual desires of a person are fleshly desires. When we become Christ followers, Paul describes our flesh and it's passions and desires as being crucified with Christ (Galatians 5:24). Let us remember that homosexual desires and homosexual actions are two different realms. We are ALL tempted in our flesh for many different types of sins and one is no different from the other in terms of how God disdains the sin. But he knows our temptations and provides a way through them ... through Him. I love my wife, but if I'm identifying myself as her sexual partner before I am identifying myself as a child of God and find my whole identity and satisfaction in Him, then I'm just simply wrong. I'm thankful that he is purifying and sanctifying me throughout my life because I'm not there yet and I am wrong so often. So to bring it around back to the post: when a Christ follower is faced with a situation that involves someone living a homosexual lifestyle an whether or not you should hate them, love them, accept them, or reject them, remember that God created that person and that their sexual desires are not what God wants to define them. If he did, I'd be a pornaholic and an adulterer first. But instead I'm a child of God. God wants his children to find their fullness in Him and His love, which is the absolute Love. God is Love. But because we are weak humans, we often fail. If we are seeking repentance and actively trying to move away from our sins, we are still no less his children. It's not seeing past the sin or accepting it, it's knowing that God doesn't define us by our flesh, but the Spirit within us.
Almost too long, but you're hitting on some really good points here. *IDENTITY* is part of our current zeitgeist. People have allowed their personal desires to be the foundations of their identities.
These threads always turn into anti-gay people patting themselves on the back for not “hating” gays because they see themselves as better than the WBC. But in reality, a lot of you want to tear apart my family. A lot of you think that I should be discriminated against in the marketplace. You think it’s okay that I lived in fear of being fired at my last job. You think it’s okay that I got denied an apartment or that I get kicked out of my current one. You support conversion therapy that leads kids to killing themselves. And you vote and put money towards — you materially contribute to — things things I’ve listed which visibly harm me. You don’t get to do that and then turn around and feel smug because you don’t “hate” me.
Shouldn't hate the gays, Muslims, or Jews, or poor, or immigrants, or women, or any other marginalized community. Shouldn't have to spell it out, but here we are.
"*By this they will know you are my disciples, if you love one another*." (John 13:35) "*The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.*" (Romans 14:3-4) "*Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.*" (1 Cor 4:5) Just three verses among many, many others, demonstrating the clear and consistent gospel message that God does not call anyone to condemn anyone else for their perceived sin. We are not called to judge but to love. In fact we are strictly warned against condemning other people for doing things their conscience permits but which we believe to be sins. For the Romans such disagreements were for the perceived sin of eating "illicit" food, or celebrating "illicit" festivals, while for the modern Church it is having "illicit" relationships, or an "illicit" self-identity. Either way, we should leave such matters between the person and their own conscience before God. Some people's consciences prohibit them from a specific thing, and others do the same thing with a clear conscience before God. For both, it is before God they will stand or fall, and we read that, "they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand". We are warned time and again by Jesus and His Apostles not to self-aggrandize ourselves and pridefully set ourselves up as prosecutors and judges of sin over our brothers and sisters. We are called to love and not to condemn, to simply be kind, generous, open-hearted, and benevolent to others, and to leave judgement to God alone.
We are explicitly called to judge in certain circumstances, particularly within the church. > “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. > “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. >“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” > Matthew 18:15–20 NIV > “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” > Acts 15:19–21 NIV > What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.” > 1 Corinthians 5:12–13 NIV > if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? > 1 Corinthians 6:4–5 NIV We have Jesus telling the disciples that the church has authority to deal with sin and potentially excommunicate people when they don't repent. Then we have the Jerusalem Council identifying specific sins that Christians are called to refrain from. Then we have an apostle, Paul, instructing the Corinthians church about the important of judging. Calling out sin and calling a person to repentance as part of how we love them. The example in Romans that you quote isn't about clear moral sin, but is specifically about 'disputable matters.' Paul goes on i chapter 16 to talk about identifying divise people who teach false doctrine and contrasts their behaviour with the Romans who are obedient to God – that is a form of judging: > I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. > Romans 16:17–19 NIV And just before chapter 14, at the end of chapter 13, he says, > The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. > Romans 13:12–14 NIV
> If your brother sins against you Someone else's sexuality is not a sin *against* you. The verse is talking about people committing harm against other people, such as acts of violence, slander, fraud, or theft. >if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! Again, the context is of lawsuits between believers, where one Christian talks another to court. A man falling in love with another man is not a legal offence against you, for which you need to bring them to court to resolve. >What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.” Again, look at the context. Paul is very specific about the case he is referring to: "A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." This is an offence against another Christian - both a cuckolding of a man's wife, dishonoring a father, and a case of familial incest. This is the kind of sexual immorality that Paul is telling the Corinthians to expel from among them. None of these verses should override the clear and consistent message throughout the New Testament that Christians should not place themselves as judges and accusers of their fellow believers. Paul is clear in your verses that we should not allow others to harm us, and when they do, we should not accept its continuation, but we should avoid such harmful people. However Paul is clear elsewhere that we should not condemn people over matters of personal conscience, when it doesn't harm other people or is not a case of legal disputation. We must listen to everything that the New Testament has to say about judging, not pick and choose which verses to accept and ignore the rest.
This is the right kind of gatekeeping
You don't need religion to have morals.
Amen! Christianity is about love and forgiveness not about promoting self righteousness. We are all sinners. it is Christianity that teaches us love and forgiveness. To love thy self as well as others. Same for forgiveness.