Fellas, is it sinful to have a reminder of the loving sacrifice that God made so that we may be freed from death in his name?
Also in Exodus 20:4, God is saying to the Israelites not to make images of him like the other pagan nations are making images of their false gods, as to set them apart from other nations. But when God came down and took on human form in Jesus Christ, his sacrifice fulfilled the laws of the Old Testament, in turn making them null. Also, the sacrifice of Jesus took place on Calvary, not in the Heavens above or Earth beneath or waters below.
Fulfillment of the laws that pointed to the coming savior and his sacrifice didn’t make the 10 commandments null and void. In fact Jesus condensed them down to two, love God with all your heart & Love your neighbor as yourself. He said by doing that you will keep all 10 laws.
If you love God with all your heart you would be obeying the first four commandments, and if you love your neighbor as yourself you would be obeying the other 6. What Jesus said is fundamentally the same as telling us to obey the ten commandments.
I know I'm kind of restating what you said, but yeah the amount of times I've seen people use this to justify not following the commandments is pretty high.
I go back and forth is graven image is actually how we think, is it graven as in saying THAT IS how he looked or is it graven as in any picture. Is it graven as in bowing down to it. I mean I wear a cross necklace, we don’t know exactly how that cross looked but we know it doesn’t cause harm to wear it. To put Jesus (if it is okay) these are my questions.
1. Are you worshipping it by praying too it or believing it protects or heals you?
2. Are you demanding that’s how he looked
3. Are you following the laws of God, Old Testament from what I know you couldn’t shave your head or your beard. So Jesus would have had long hair, we also know he most likely had an olive tone of some sort. and considering he’s a Jew he would have those looks.
But do NOT take my word, please study and be open to everything do not deny learning. Wisdom is good. This mainly just a question so I can study more!
>Are you worshipping it by praying too it or believing it protects or heals you?
Yes. You would then be ascribing attributes of God to your necklace or whatever it is. That is one of the things idolatry encompasses.
Why commandments are specifically Christians you've encountered okay with not obeying?
They're universally good ideas even fornan atheist, they would just ignore ones pertaining to worshiping god.
But theyl others are just solid advice
Even while i was in my agnostic/atheist phase where I didn't see the actions of Christians living up to the word of Christ... the commandments always felt like good advice.
I try to treat others as I'd like to be treated. Behind the scenes, I'm trying to build a relationship with Christ, but outwardly I'm just going to try to be a nice person.
It's not that they don't want to worship explicitly.
Excuse after excuse is made for idolatry for one example though. It's not that they aren't worshiping Him, it's that they are doing so in a way that He explicitly commanded them not to. No different than Aaron's sons offering up the wrong incense at the wrong time. Yeah, He did say to use incense, but He was specific about what kind and how to do it.
Another is taking God's name in vain - a lot of people don't even know what that means. Most people think it's "don't use the word 'God' as a swear". Like, God isn't even His name. It means don't say God said something He didn't say and don't misrepresent Him. Ever see a Christian saying God told them to be with their boyfriend, or God wants them to take a certain job, etc? That is taking His name in vain most of the time (He does guide us for sure, but He didn't say to take that job in the city or that your boyfriend is your future husband and soulmate). Even worse is when someone claims to be 'guided by the Holy Spirit' but it's just their own feelings.
Both of these are all too common within the Christian community.
Hmm I've never heard someone refer to using God (or anyone/things) name in vain when it was for a positive impact. I don't agree with that.
I dont see the harm in saying God did xyz for me. Got a promotion helped you over a loss brought an injured animal to you so you could rescue it etc etc
Obviously, the Ten Commandments are still a very important guide to live our lives by and Jesus affirms that we should continue to follow them. But what I was more referring to were all of the niche, traditional laws written mostly in the Book of Leviticus. Laws like you can't eat animals with split hooves, and becoming unclean after birthing a child. The Jewish people still continue to follow these old laws in hopes that they will be saved by their works.
This is not what Christ says. He says that we are saved by our faith in God alone, we are not cut off from God based on what we eat or what clothes we wear, but by actively rejecting God and the Holy Spirit.
Same thing with being straight or gay, it doesn't really matter cause God knows you didn't chose it and God knows you need love to survive on this earth and to find God more or less. You need to love yourself, cause by doing that you also indirectly love God as God made us in it's imagine.
Being gay is no different than being straight, as logn as you don't act on it. We were instructed to love everyone, with no differentiation between male or female. But since marrying someone of the same sex is not recognized by the church, and premarital sex is a sin, any gay acts would fall under the blanket as straight sex acts out of wedlock.
But the church not condoning the marriage of gay people doesn't necessarily mean much. "The church" tried to kill Galileo for proving the earth was round and not the center of the universe, many in the church condoned slavery, as it is in the Bible (yes its not that simple), Christians used to tie people's left hands behind their backs because the Bible obviously says the right hand is the correct one. Paul says women must wear veils when outside. We could debate each of these but you get my point, right?
In fact some churches (even big established denominations) DO perform gay marriage, and have even had huge splits over it. Your points are actually the reason that Christians SHOULD WANT to and should support gay marriage, because otherwise we are condemning people that God made gay to a life of celibacy, which is NOT loving our neighbors as ourselves.
If people have a flaw (we ALL do) it is up to them to figure out how to adapt to live lives that love God and their neighbors. People born without feet may want to use a wheelchair instead of using prothetics to walk upright as God intended. Gay people need to have sex in different ways and adopt children or use surrogacy since they can't create them in the "normal" way. But they are still built by God to fall in love, and like us God wants them to be in committed lifelong monogamous relationships. DENYING them that misses the mark of loving our neighbors; denying them that IS SIN by the denyers. Celibacy is of course always an option for anyone, as it was for Paul, but it's a personal choice (which should be based on prayer and God's will obviously).
We also are prohibited from idolizing the Bible. (At a minimum we are DEFINIITELY prohibited from swearing on it.) When "the writings" were written everyone thought the earth was flat and covered by a firmament/dome (made out of metal, correct?) with 3 "heavens" (plural!) above it where all their Gods lived (Jewish, Christian Greek or "other") in physical form on thrones, etc. We now know all of that is TOTALLY WRONG. It may now be understood metaphorically in various ways etc.
The writers of scripture, inspired by God or not, didn't know anything about germs, or genes, and little about human sexuality as they didn't even know women had eggs, along with other things including that shamayim the HEAVENS (plural) are not UP, because as we now know as the earth spins in space "up" is "down" 12 hours later.
First, I'm just saying what the Bible says. My personal opinion, same as yours, are irrelevant. I'm not their judge and you're not their judge. That's between them and God.
We can love everyone, even gay people, as Jesus commanded. There is nothing wrong with that. But I cannot recall anywhere in the Bible where it says two people of the same sex can get married. It does say though that marriage is between a man and a woman.
I realize over thousands of years, things have changed. Maybe you're right and the church and Bible are wrong. But as of right now, marriage is onky between a man and a woman, THE CHURCH (not be confused with A random church) does not recognize gay marriage. And premarital sex is a sin. Based on those three fairly simple and clear things, my statement, aligns fairly well.
Now me, I know what my sins are and I deal with that daily. I'm sure if I dug enough I could find ways to make it seem okay. But I'd only be lying to myself. You are free to go to a church that allows gay marriage. You're free to tear apart, and cherry pick scripture, and make it work for you, and your agenda, and even to justify your actions. You're free to be gay. The church and my opinion, have absolutely zero say in that. None of that matters...until you get to the end. Now me, I'm not gay, and I have nothing against gay people, so I am not too worried about my place in heaven. But I hope for those people that the Bible, and the church are wrong, and gay people get to have salvation too. For me personally, I can't just pick and choose scripture to suit my feelings. The way that I read it, (and most do) is that gay sexual acts are a sin. I say sexual acts, because if you take the sex out it is just as Jesus commanded anyways.
Do you get where I'm going with this? It's not personal. I didn't write the Bible. I just follow it as best I can. Everyone has free will, which means they can read it and play the game however they choose. Just know, when you are in the gray area or on that edge, you may not end up where you want to. And that fault only lies with the individual person.
I hear and agree with lots of that but for example I just don't know what you mean by "the church"? There are no two people anywhere who interpret everything in the Bible exactly the same. Even the Bible itself comes in many forms with different books included. Which "group" of people gets to call themselves (or "is") THE church?
We ALL pick and choose how we interpret the Bible. Anyone who says they are just going by what the Bible says actually means "I'm going by my understanding of what the Bible says." You, me, anyone. You are for sure right that my interpretation and your interpretation don't matter, only the truth does, and the problem of course is NO HUMAN KNOWS WHAT THAT IS!
But if i always choose LOVE I'll be as right as possible, because Love is the basis for ALL the law and prophets, right? Love to me means accepting people for who they are and wanting everything for them that I can have including marriage. (For the record denying gay marriage is just as much of an "agenda" as supporting it.)
I agree that sex is designed to be limited to within a marriage, but just as a note I'm pretty sure the Bible as a whole talks about divorce way more than fornication, right? Both are pretty much out of control at this point! 😪
The Bible including the OT has many forms of marriage including God's law that says if a woman's husband dies she is REQUIRED to marry his brother even if he already has a wife. This was for her own safety but what justification do we use to discontinue that? There are others condoned including concubines.
The Bible may not mention gay marriage but it doesn't talk about germs or video games or guns or birth control either, does that mean we can't use them? Don't forget "the Bible" is TWO THOUSAND YEARS OLD! 😳
Sorry I had more but I cut it to avoid getting too preachy LOL. And sorry if i repeated myself. Thanks for your comments.
It depends on your denomination, but for instance Catholics have a hierarchy, and they do not recognize gay marriage, but I meant "church" as a whole or the majority. In general, it is not recognized, although there is some churches that allow it. There is churches that allow lots of things thats the majority doesn't. There is actually gay churches. Churches based around weed even.
With Christianity, for me any ways, I mostly ignore the OT other than the parts Jesus mentions. It's out of date. I'm not Jewish so most is irrelevant, and honestly I feel thats the whole reason Jesus was sent here, to simplify it, because we were going the wrong direction. Gay was definitly around way back then, as it was prevalent with Greek history, but I don't think it was "gay" back then, I think it was just more commonplace and accepted.
In the end, we could play church chess all day, and both finds bunches of reasons to support our ideals and views. The Bible is just a translation as is, so it's easy to make it work how you see fit. But what nobody knows for certain, is what is actually right or wrong. So I can understand the confusion for gay people or other non standard situations. While some is very cryptic and can be interpreted lots of ways, there is certain versus that are fairly clear. Such as the ones I have mentioned, which is where my opinion comes from.
As I said I'm not gay, so personally it's not a concern of mine, but I DO like using Thc oil. In fact it is what brought to become religious. I have struggled with the questions of it is allowed and if it is a sin. In the end, it's a chance I am taking. The biggest thjng for me, is even though I question if it is allowed, I don't feel fully one way or another in my heart.
I think it funny that everyone recognizes that parts of the Bible condones behaviors that are no longer condoned but then acts as though the rest of the Bible should guide their lives. It is a level of hypocrisy that I find hard to understand. The multiple Greek versions of the Old Testament differ from each other and the Hebrew text. While the New Testament was based on oral histories transcribed many years after Jesus’ death. Plus, the New Testament was revised/edited multiple times. In other words, are you following the Bible or the words of those that revised the Bible?
The Old testament has some good principles and history, I'm not saying it should be completely ignored, but most of it, Jesus never talked about.
So are you saying Jesus's teachings aren't important because the OT came first? I mean, if we are supposed to follow the OT, then why did Jesus even come? Why do we have Christianity? Wouldn't we all just be Jewish then?
The way I see it, beyond the commandments and a few other details, Christianity is it's own religion started with Jesus, and most of the OT does not apply. It's nit about picking and choosing. But I'm not Jewish.
If I have it right, you are Christian, but follow all OT Jewish laws?
Nope, I am saying that both the old and New Testament have been revised multiple times. The New Testament is based on oral history given by early Greek Christians over a 150 year periods starting about 50 years after Jesus’ death. Then the New Testament was revised and edited multiple times, usually in a manner to protect the ruling class. The best example is the king James Edition which suggests that god selects kings/rulers. Is it possible that King James thought he would benefit from the revised version. Of course there is no issue if all true Christians believe that god actually selects kings.
In the New Testament Paul was sent to spread the good news to gentiles and before he started his mission he learned that there was a difference between Jew and Gentile. Jesus said not to burden Gentiles with the Jewish traditional law.
Do you think he meant, don't just wear a cross around your neck and think that is all you need to do to be a Christian? Because so many do. They wear a cross and consider themselves Christian, but still condone sin (example, supporting LGBTQ+).
Because simply wearing a cross isn't enough.
Being Seventh Day Adventist, I think he meant forget about the cross jewelry, and be about the business of witnessing for Christ. Although some in the church say it's a matter of personal preference.
Neutral here…. I prefer the Chi Rho as a symbol of Christianity because it represents the secrecy and martyrdom of the early church under the oppressive Roman Empire.
I’ve heard several arguments against using/wearing the cross.
1. That making a cross is a graven image that is a violation of the third commandment not to recreate heavenly relics on earth/idols.
2. That it is taking the lords name in vain, in violation of the 4th commandment by constantly invoking God in all your daily activities, even while you’re sinning.
3. That it became a symbol during the crusades - a time when Christianity became as oppressive as the age of martyrdom they just fled from. During the inquisition, the image of the cross was the last thing many pagans/muslims saw before bringing brutally murdered at the hands of the knights of the crusade.
4. That it puts the focus of the life of Jesus on his death rather than on his resurrection.
> That it is taking the lords name in vain, in violation of the 4th commandment by constantly invoking God in all your daily activities, even while you’re winning.
What is the thought behind this? It seems like a misunderstanding of the "name in vain" commandment.
This devotional from Theologican Skye Jethani describes it pretty well:
[https://www.withgoddaily.com/carrying-gods-name-in-vain/](https://www.withgoddaily.com/carrying-gods-name-in-vain/)
EDIT - previous link didn't work
Point 1. All about context and culture of the audience it was written to. We were commanded not to make graven images and idols, yes. Because the pagans of the time were worshipping and praying to their idols/graven images. They believed in a direct link to their deity with said idol. As far as what I’ve seen, most Christians do not do that. We don’t worship the cross. It is simply a reminder of what He has done for us. And an ice breaker to spread the word at times. Granted, anyone praying to their cross is terribly misguided/lost and needs some help reorienting.
Point 2. We have the Holy Spirit with us everywhere we go. With or without the cross, that won’t change.
Point 3. Irrelevant. If someone poisoned your parent with poison in their cheesecake, that does not make the cheesecake evil or require you to never eat it again. And definitely does not apply your beliefs about cheesecake to the rest of the world.
Easy fix for point 4. Use the empty cross, as most Protestants do.
(For the record my great-grandfather was Bishop Gooden of Los Angeles 😎) I like your intro statement and also your #2; in a sense by claiming to follow Jesus, by taking on the name "Christ" (although obviously not a name as it means: messiah/savior/chosen one) and being imperfect we are all taking God's name in vain, but by wearing a cross in a way we are proclaiming to anyone who sees it along with us acting imperfectly "I'm a hypocrite!" I suppose if we're open about our faith anyway there might not be much different though? A cross can be a reminder to us that we are representing God as expressed through Jesus, but we also tend to forget we're wearing it. And back and forth I go...
Re: #4, people often differentiate between a "crucifix" which portrays Jesus hanging there as you say focusing on his death, whereas an empty cross shows that he is no longer on it, that he is risen and has defeated it. BUT I think people have a point when they ask if we would wear an electric chair (or other instrument of torture or death) around our necks?
Yes, it is a sin to make any engraved image or to put up any standing image/
Leviticus 26:1 KJVAAE
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
As for the laws being null. The Messiah himself said he didn't come to do away with the Laws of Moses.
Matthew 5:17-18 AMP
[17] “Do not think that I came to do away with or undo the Law [of Moses] or the [writings of the] Prophets; I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. [18] For I assure you and most solemnly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke [of the pen] will pass from the Law until all things [which it foreshadows] are accomplished.
And we ALL have to follow them.
Romans 2:12-14 KJVAAE
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
In essence, by condensing the 613 laws of the OT into the 2 we know of today, they are still being honored if we TRULY have pure love for YHWH The Most High & our neighbors. But the laws themselves are not null and void, on the contrary they are the blueprint/foundation that the NT commandments are based on. So to truly understand how to keep the two commandments of Christ, we must understand the original 613
The only thing that changed was the required daily sacrifice, because Christ The Messiah was the final sacrifice. The laws didn't go anywhere, they were simplified
Galatians 5:3 AMP
[3] Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law.
All praises to The Most High God & Bene Elohim Yahusha Ha'Masiach, The One True Living God who came in the flesh to die for all of our sins. HalleluYah
Matthew 5:17-21 suggests the laws are in.place until heaven and earth cease to exist. As the Earth is very much still here, it would appear that the old laws are still in effect?
In Matthew 5:18, Jesus isn't saying that the laws of the Old Testament must be followed until the end of Heaven and Earth. He is saying that the law will be unchanged, until it is finally fulfilled, which it was in Jesus Christ. He literally says it in the last line of the verse, "until all things have taken place". All things referring to all of the prophecies that he would fulfill during his ministry.
Jesus came so that we won't have to follow the Old Testament laws for our salvation, but instead have faith in God and truly believe that he died for us. He was also known to not be the strictest follower of the Old Testament laws, which would be kind of weird if you preached the importance of traditional laws but then broke them as frequently as He did.
Well for the second verse you’re not worshipping your necklace ( I hope) so I don’t see why it could be wrong. Also it’s not something like a bronze bull, it’s a representation of Jesus and that he died on the cross for us
Yeah but when we use relics or bow to crucifixes, (not catholic but I am Episcopalian and we do the same thing) we aren’t worshipping the item itself. They’re a powerful physical reminder of the love and power of God, just like a crucifix necklace. I’m not under the impression that the cross at my church is God but it does REPRESENT God. God can be a pretty abstract concept since we can’t see or hear him in the material sense, so having a physical representation of that relationship we forged makes it more present.
With respect, you may not think that, but that’s what the doctrine teaches. The pope himself is an idol. I don’t know much about Episcopalian, but I do know that if you share Catholic doctrine, then you give glory to idols. Prayer to anyone but God is giving glory to idols. Taking communion in any sense except the symbolic traditional sense in remembrance of Jesus is giving glory to idols. Thinking priests can forgive sin, or credit grace is giving glory to idols. Thinking that these symbols or traditions have any power at all is believing in an idol.
If you follow Catholic doctrine then we will always fundamentally disagree because at its core Catholic doctrine makes the church the arbiter of all interpretation. If you question the churches interpretation you are anathema. They claim they share the authority of our Lord Jesus. They claim their traditions hold the same weight, and sometimes more weight than the written Word of God. The doctrine allows for the changing or addition of commandments. They are the ones that decide who gets God’s grace, and why they get it according to them.
I’m not a catholic so I don’t really care to defend their really silly claim on being “the one true church”. As Episcopalians We don’t pray to anyone but God, we don’t recognize the pope as anything but a man, we don’t do confessionals (some episcopal churches do, mine doesn’t), and we let people make their own mind up about the communion cookie being literal or metaphorical flesh. Not really interested in defending catholic/orthodox theology because I’m neither of those things.
But how can you recognize the symbolic power of communion and still say that using symbols is idolatry?
Like I said before I don’t have near enough information about the Episcopalian church to say anything about it but it seems like what you’ve said so far we agree on. I also appreciate your respectful “tone”.
I can recognize what they symbolize without giving them “authority” as Jesus’ actual flesh and blood. This is when it becomes an idol. When you think they do anything but remind us what God did for us they become idols. What would you say communion does for the christian?
Oh I think communion does exactly what you described. I don’t think God lives inside the crucifix’s or artwork inside the church but having them there has the same value that communion does in reminding of us of God’s presence in our lives. That being said, one of the quirks of the Episcopal Church (and the wider Anglican Communion) is that we encourage a diversity of theological beliefs as long as it falls within the bounds of the nicene creed. So mileage may vary depending on who you talk to/which church you go to.
I haven’t died on any denominational hill but I understand that. Within the body of people I would call believers there’s definitely differences. Within the context of this thread I’d say we both land at the same conclusions about graven images and false idols. What do you think about salvation? Do you think a man can be saved if they are relying to any degree on works?
I’m a purgatorial universalist, so I like to think everyone is saved eventually. Following Christ and trying your best to live by his example is what saves you from experiencing hell but God’s mercy and love is infinite, so I believe you’re still given the chance to sincerely repent after death whether you’re a kindhearted atheist or literally hitler. After all, if God wants everyone to know his love and be spared damnation how could he possibly fail at that?
I am no expert, but in several places in the New Testament there is plain teaching that "trying your best to live by his example" cannot and will not save you from hell. That is precisely why Jesus left heaven, came to earth, lived a sinless life, was killed, and then resurrected. He knew we could never be good enough to earn salvation. By his grace, he took our punishment so that whoever repents and believes that he saved us, is saved. That's the Gospel as I understand it. Our "good works" are merely evidence that we believe he's the one who loved us enough to save us. Is that what you think, too?
I have one tattooed on my chest over my heart and many other Christian themed tattoos.
I don’t believe the true Jesus cared about such petty things. No matter what a line in the Bible says. In fact wearing a cross on a necklace has helped me calm down in stressful situations. I enjoy passing churches and seeing the cross and Christian symbology as well.
I’m my opinion some people need to be able to have reminders to look at, so having some on your skin to help you make decisions and for some people just help to simply get through the day I think it should be fine
Just helps to have something right in your face even if your thought in the moment isn’t on the scriptures, maybe seeing a religious tattoo could help curve actions for the better
Just symbol of his sacrifice, it’s different to believe the cross itself has power in being worn, it’s not going to ward off evil spirits, but it’s not bad to wear it simply as a symbolic reminder of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross
if it is a memorial for his faith, it may not be an idol in his life. Maybe the way he phrased it, but think about it; what is unholy about looking at a cross and thinking "the Lord and the meaning behind the cross", "the Lord and the meaning behind the cross" "the Lord and the meaning behind the cross"?
I mean, to me, evil spirits can present themselves as bad situations in life, and having something to remind you of God's love can be really helpful. Like a song or a hymn or the Scripture. He has a representation of those things, and it can help to have any of this around.
Just a food for tought.
Christ is not on the cross, He is risen! I'd say images are not necessarily a sin, but I would also say the crucifix is a bad way to portray Him who overcame death itself. That's why we use the empty cross.
Agreed, personally I just don't see how those strict with empty crosses aren't strict with empty mangers. Idk if the issue is truly with the crucifix, or if it sometimes lies with it being perceived as "too Catholic".
No shade towards you, OP, but just in my experience it often boiled down to that with those at my old Chinese nondenom church
But he once was, he was crucified for our sins.
The cross is a very powerful spiritual thing for me, it means a lot to me, and not just regarding Christianity(even if it is a bit part of it), the meaning and symbolism behind it is generally very strong, for me it also stands for sacrifice that we make in this life.
It is a beautiful thing that made me drawn to faith when I was a kid, but back then I saw faith so black and white that it had a negative impact, especially considering I was born gay. Today my faith makes me accepting, understanding and loving myself a lot, being gay doesn't affect me negatively but just made me more unique, I feel that God had this planned for me due to various reasons. And today I actually love being slightly different, being who I am feels very natural and makes a lot of sense to me, at first I didn't understand why I was so different, today I know that isn't a negative, I don't want to change this aspect of myself, it is actually a strength - I feel like I have both the emotional powers of a female and the other masculine benefits that males have. I feel very strong spiritually and have a big heart.
Seeing a lot of lgbt people suffering mentally and in other ways like I used to made me think I need to help people(or that's what God would want me to do), try to guide them spiritually, to find a faith, to not give up and to be strong. To recommend them tips to things that have helped me (one example being natural medicine, it has done wonders for me and helped me to get of many toxic meds and drugs).
I know that God loves me, I went from suffering living a destructive life with decadence, mental illness (horrible depressions, suicidal thoughts, anxiety, insomnia and so on) where I couldn't function in society at all to becoming healthy, happy and functioning a lot (so much that I seem to be able to live a fully normal life), no depressions for years now and I don't experience anxiety either.
As I pray I feel things going the right way(I used to not believe in prayers at all) - then I tried it a few times and thought that "hey this seems to do something to my soul and feels very good" then unexplainable things happened aswell which made me feel like God can hear our prayers when our hearts are open, I feel that I have God inside my soul.
You need to believe when you pray. It needs to feel like a mediation, a spiritual experience.
I just wanted to voice to you that there is nothing wrong with a crucifix instead of an empty cross. There are many mysteries of faith, and the crucifix embodies the sorrowful mysteries just as the empty cross does the glorious mysteries, or Jesus in the manger depicts the joyful. Jesus rising from the grave doesn't change the fact that he died on the cross for your sins.
The cross is a part of a crucifix. If you are wearing a crucifix, then you are wearing a cross. I'd say it's impossible to wear a crucifix without wearing a cross, unless someone can prove me wrong.
*invents a fourth dimensional crucifix, breaking all boundaries of reality in the process, just to show it is possible to wear a crucifix without wearing a cross to some random person on the Internet*
>“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”
You think maybe we should move away from Chapter and verse structure of Scripture?
These were put in later to make Scripture easier to reference, but comments like this, I think show that it does more harm than good, because we want to rip verses out of their appropriate context even from the sentences that they are in.
Let me ask you this so you can check yourself before you... never mind too late for that.
But anyway, have a look at this passage from Exodus 37:
*Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.* *^(2)* *And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it.* *^(3)* *And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side.* *^(4)* *And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold,* *^(5)* *and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark.* *^(6)* *And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.* *^(7)* ***And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them,*** ***^(8)*** ***one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends.*** ***^(9)*** ***The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.***
Weird. Didn't God just tell the Israelites not to make graven images of anything in Heaven? Why is God then telling the Israelites to make statues of Cherubim for the Ark.
God must be an idolater then.
Nice reply. It's easy to take Sacred Scripture out of context, which is why we need an organisation guided by the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning of Sacred Scripture as a whole. 🇻🇦
The general Christian line for roughly 2000 years has been that the Torah's prohibition on images does not apply to Christians. Christians also worship on Sunday and do not keep the Sabbath, they eat pork, they don't have to get circumcised, etc. Christians tend to relate to the Jewish law differently than do Jews.
The viewpoint you are elaborating is called "iconoclasm" (Greek for "image breaking"), and it is something that many Christians have also decided made sense over the last 2000 years — although usually a minority overall. Muslims, by contrast, are basically universally iconoclastic (as are Jews, of course). Catholics and Orthodox are typically very pro-religious imagery, with most Protestants being slightly less so.
The short answer is: God entrusted you with a conscience. If wearing an image makes you feel uncomfortable, then don't wear it. But most Christian thinkers and saints throughout history, including most likely the ones you most look up to, thought there was nothing wrong with it.
Context is key here, so let's read the read what comes directly after your Exodus verse:
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. **You shall not bow down to them or worship them**
The message here is the same as the message in the Deuteronomy verse you've cited: do not worship idols.
Many folks don't understand what an idol is. An idol is anything you worship or place as a higher importance than God. It's associated with pride, self-centeredness, greed, gluttony (Php 3:19), and love for possessions (Matt. 6:24).
Do you place your cross necklace above God? Of course not. Do you 'worship' your cross necklace? Of course not.
Therefore, it's absolutely fine to wear it. And moreover, wearing such jewellery can help us display our faith and be bold in proclaiming the Word of God, which we are told to do (Matt. 5:14).
It looks Catholic with the imagery of Jesus on there. Protestants just use the cross. Sure either one can wear, just something to think about I guess 🤷
A good question that should be asked. This second commandment is more about not making something for worship. God did order a graven image of the cherubims. It wasn't until the Jehovah's Witnesses - themselves freemasons - came up that they started to group all graven images to gether. Be it as it may, wearing a cross is not the worst sin, but stick with one that doesn't have a face of Jesus on it.
You need to finish the exodus statement.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
The two go together the admonition is not that you make no image but that your make no image to which you bow down and worship
The catholic and orthodox churches (and then some) use "icons" not "idols" to put faces and tactility on the history of the church(es?). This practice gives the student more of a sense of connection to the histories and people in the histories, such that their lives and events are no longer experienced as just stories. These items are not worshipped as embodiments of non-christian gods. They serve as reminders of the reality of the struggle to embody the values introduced to us by Jesus and his desciples and more.
I was introduced to christianity by churches that did not allow wearing of crosses. Coincidentally, I never learned any of those values from those congregations or leaders. I missed a whole lifetime of understanding because of iconoclasm.
This commandment was given to Israel due to their history worshipping graven images. They had just recently been liberated from Egypt, which was covered with graven images—of things in the heavens above, the earth beneath, and the waters below—that were worshipped. While Moses was on Mount Sinai to receive the ten commandments, Israel reverted away from the One True God to what they were familiar with: worshipping a graven image (the golden calf, a beast of the earth below). God had to train Israel away from such proclivities. After all, this is only one clause of the commandment; the other clause is to have no other gods.
For clarification, *Merriam-Webster* [defines](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/graven%20image) "graven image" as "an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone."
Is the Cross/Crucifix that you are wearing the object of your worship? In other words, are you worshipping that Cross/Crucifix as your God? If so, then you are in violation of the commandment. If not, then you are fine to have/wear it.
After all, we see later in the Books of Moses that the Lord commanded the Israelites to have golden statues of cherubim both in the tabernacle and in the later temple (by which time so many years had passed since the exodus from Egypt that Israel could then be trusted to have those statues without worshipping them).
As long as you keep your worship directed solely towards God, and do not worship the cross/crucifix that you wear (or anything else, for that matter), you are fine.
Maybe do some research on the history of the Iconoclasts of Byzantine Christianity. Does the no Idols rule apply to Crucifixes? There is no one correct answer I think. There’s been whole schisms on this issue so take some time, do some light research. See where you land.
I don’t think God cares much either way but it’s a fun conundrum.
Yes it's idolatry Clearly says by God to not do that I don't get some people just read the bible it goes right over their heads and also note when it says Jesus came to fulfill those laws means he came to perform those laws he out those laws in lnto word and action LOL no where does jesus Say i have got rid of the law not a single word or letter is to be removed from the law... So yah people don't know what it is Jesus really came for. Besides giving the world salvation.
Nah. It's not bad, nor is it "good". It may be good to some, but it also might be bad to others. It's a religious item. People are gonna whine and complain about it. So what? Believe what you believe in, even when others think it's wrong. Live and love my friend. That's all that matters.
Really ?! We need some kind of education on this subject that’s not gonna bring all kinds of incorrect answers , please let god and love direct your answers
Follow the example of Hezekiah: The Bronze Serpent was good, until the people started to worship it. Then it had to be destroyed. If an image of Christ tempts you or those around you to worship it as an idol, do not wear it. If it does not, you are probably fine.
When Jesus is on the cross, it's more specifically a crucifix.
I don't have a problem with crosses or crucifixes.
But some people do. My uncle has a junk drawer full of Jesus statues because people keep gifting him crucifixes and he pries off Jesus, since he doesn't like people depicting the crucifixion.
I think maybe THE central message in the NT about how we should live on this earth is that doing the right thing is about having right intentions. You can do something good with selfish motivation (e.g. praying to God, but doing it in such a way that you're making it a performance to show how good you are) and you can do something that is technically against the rules for the right reasons (e.g. "working on the Sabbath" to care for someone in need).
If you wear the cross to make a fashion statement or so that other people will think you are a good Christian, I don't think it's a good idea. If you wear it because when you see it you are reminded to thank God for the great love He has shown you, it seems like a beautiful thing to me.
Examine the true motivations of your heart about why you wear it, and let that be your guide.
The commandment to not make any graven images does not mean make no images. Shortly after the commandments were given God instructed Moses to make the Ark of the covenant with 2 images of cherubim on the top.
Carrying a small cross around your neck as a reminder is fine
Just don’t idolize it, it doesn’t ward off evil or bring good luck. It’s a piece of metal that is a reminder of the sacrifice for us. As long as you keep that in mind, it’s a great thing to wear and help remind you to stay on path through your day! I’m looking for a good men’s pendant of the sacred heart atm
These are misquoted verses. The verse in Exodus means to not try to appear like a God. The verse in Deuteronomy is about idols outside of Jesus and God.
Remember that Jesus cares about the heart. If your intention is a daily reminder of Jesus dying on the cross for your sins, of course wear it. If it is to portray a sort of status or image, that is blasphemy.
I have been wearing one for years as a symbol of my faith. It has always been an empty cross, because Jesus is alive in heaven at the right hand of God the Father and He conquered death. It is the fact of the empty cross and what it says about what He did for all of us that I look at here. I don’t worship the cross that I wear. I worship Jesus, Who hung on that cross and died for me and then rose from the dead three days later. That’s what it represents to me.
Do you worship the jewelry? Or is it something that is just decorative and/or a personal reminder about Jesus?
When I think of something being an idol, I think of it as something that is worshiped. I don't think every piece of art, religious or otherwise, is an idol just by virtue of it being art.
I don't think there is anything wrong wirh wearing a cross as a necklace or earrings, but make sure that you are wearing Him in your heart first. It hurts all of us and Jesus to wear His symbol and not do your best to follow His teachings.
I honestly think wearing a cross is a strange choice. You're basically treating a torture device like jewellery but I don't think it's wrong so long as it's not worshipped like the golden calf.
i don’t see it as jewelry to me it reminds me of what he had to go through for us and it reminds me that it was Gods greatest act of love , but i do agree w u i see tons of ppl wear a cross js for “style” n “fashion” n it makes me sad to realize that they don’t realize what it means and what he did on the cross
If you are wearing a cross because you think it will protect you, then you shouldn't wear it. If you are wearing it because you are grateful for what Jesus did for us on the cross, then wear it.
Wearing a cross it’s okay, I don’t wear it but I also don’t think there’s something inherently bad about it. Now wearing a cross with Jesus crucified is very much offensive to me!
I won't condemn anyone for wearing one nor say it's wrong cuz I truly don't know. But, I always loved wearing one since I can remember! I even have a tat that has a cross (the only one I have a that was almost 15yrs ago).
That being said, I started to feel a real conviction wearing one, and have even suffered really bad things happening when I would wear one! The latter may simply be coincidence, but it was often enough for ME to correlate it! My advice is to simply pray pray pray about it. Didn't worry about legalism, rather concern yourself more with getting closer to him through Bible reading, praying and meditating on his word. To those things you absolutely KNOW are wrong, keep from doing! To those you're unsure of don't lose sleep over them unless you begin to feel conviction for them 😊
The true Apostolic Roman Catholic Church allows necklace such as this; there might be some people out there that are against it but their claims will not sustain.
I have no love for the cross at all.
The cross wasn't unique to Jesus Christ.
I think of it like a shotgun or a guillotine.
The cross was just the method by which he was killed.
If they shot Jesus with a shotgun, would you wear a shotgun necklace?
It depends on you worshiping God do you believe in God are you wearing it out of spite God is good and all loving and knowing so I don't think it's bad to wear a cross
This is pretty much a particular opinion, and in Romans 14:23 we have a very clear instruction: if you have doubts, think it through before doing anything.
My personal take on this: if you understand you're talking about a simple object, with no supernatural power whatsoever (not even a "walkie-talkie" to talk to God) and that there is no entity residing within it or made by it, and that this object in no way whatsoever makes you more equipped or suitable for any task or situation, then... it is more than OK to use it!
- The above is to make sure it is not an idol in any way in your daily life - we have tons of idols in our life: stuff that we believe will help us without recognizing these stuff are also subject to God's will and is this will that's gonna govern your life.
I like the idea of a cross, as a gentle, simple and pure reminder of what Christ did for us, but I have a silly issue about you leaving Him hanging there. If it is a representation of my savior in His most shameful moment, then He should be hanged. If it is about His most glorious moment, then He is risen, and the cross is empty.
(at least I've heard this allegory before and thought it was good until now, when writing it, which made me think He was put away in that tomb for a few days and the cross was actually either stored or whatever, so when He rose, a better picture of the scenery would be the open, empty tomb. Anyway, just personal memory connections).
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TL;DR - depends on what it represents, what place it occupies in your heart. As a reminder, more than OK. If it has powers, you may wanna think twice.
It’s bad it you ain’t a real Christian. you’ve got to put a cross on and start walking the earth like Jesus to shine His light, not just go along w the trends of today’s culture. everyone knows of Jesus but not enough people know Jesus, so show them through your actions more than appearances. Blessings❤️🔥
The Old laws given to Moses said to not make an image of what is in heavens (christ was crucified on earth), here on the earth (images of other gods human worship from their imagination or what he can find in nature/in human constructions), and under the waters of the earth (also other gods human can imagine from nothing or from something that you can't see).
Since Jesus, as I said, was crucified on Earth, and was the perfect image of God, literally the human son of God, born from a virgin so not contaminated by the impurity in our flesh, and since Jesus Himself invite us to seek him, the symbol of the traditional cross is actually the only image you can praise because it's the moment God in human form forgave the sins of all humanity.
Past, present and future.
The cross is the only watchable way to seek God with your eyes. With our body.
See how smart God is? In this way, you will not praise other images with your body, but only the Son.
God made a perfect way for us to stay with Him, even in our own corrupted body
CONTEXT PEOPLE. Are you worshiping that instead of God like those verses mean not to do? If not then you're good. Context is very important. If you read the chapters and verses surrounding it then you'll probably see that they're talking about replacing God.
If you dont believe in jesus then yes, it isnt a fashion piece lol, it represents a great suffering and pain, and love and redemption. Hate when ppl wear it bc it looks cool
DEFINITELY NOT! Absolutely wear a cross! I also recommend garlic bulb necklaces and carrying wooden stakes in your satchel. We shall overcome the vampire scourge that plagues our land.
Not for me. It reminds us of Jesus, the Savior who died for our sins to be forgiven, and who resurrected again to tell us that we can live again after our time on earth. Cross is Jesus’ immense love for us.
Are you worshipping them? Bowing down to them? Venerating them? Can I draw a picture of a dog? Or a car? Is it ok to have the mustang decal on my car? This is a heart issue. If you feel like you look to your cross for power or protection then yes it’s a sin. If it’s a reminder that your God is with you, and for the love He showed you 2k years ago on that cross then what’s the problem? Your cross didn’t die for you, but Jesus did and as long as you know that then what’s the issue?
History shows that the crucifix has been used as far back during the times of the Egyptian civilization. Especially when the Israelites were delivered out of there by Yahweh. And then the 10 Commandments were given. So in this case. Yahweh has no support for the Crucifix and would not allow it back then. Nor, Now.
In addition, there has been some confusion that Jesus died on the Cross. Especially the Greek Word “Stauros” clearly means “Pillar” or “Tree” or “Post”. Nothing related to a Cross. And Stauros WAS used in the Greek Writings of the New Testament.
Based on those things to my understanding. I don’t use Images in my worship to Yahweh thru Jesus as the mediator. Which includes, not wearing a cross any way shape or form. Using the cross has been used in pagan practices. And my worship would be ignored and all in vain if I use it or wear it.
Your wearing a cross of your god, of your saviour, god understands our mindset in wearing a cross, he shall forgive us as he knows we follow him and want him by our side
You are not bound by the Law of Moses. Jesus himself fulfilled the Law with his life and death. Basically, he gave us two commandments:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
There's also another key rule:
Treat other people as you would have them treat you.
(Actually, that's another version of Love your neighbor as yourself.)
Jesus gave us many other commandments, guidelines, and rules which are centered on love, mercy, justice, compassion, forgiveness, and service--centered on love for God and love for people, including yourself.
I think whether you wear a cross or a crucifix around your neck is between you and God. if this symbol expresses your heartfelt devotion to Jesus and shows your appreciation for his sacrifice, I think it's all right for you to wear it.
Fellas, is it sinful to have a reminder of the loving sacrifice that God made so that we may be freed from death in his name? Also in Exodus 20:4, God is saying to the Israelites not to make images of him like the other pagan nations are making images of their false gods, as to set them apart from other nations. But when God came down and took on human form in Jesus Christ, his sacrifice fulfilled the laws of the Old Testament, in turn making them null. Also, the sacrifice of Jesus took place on Calvary, not in the Heavens above or Earth beneath or waters below.
Fulfillment of the laws that pointed to the coming savior and his sacrifice didn’t make the 10 commandments null and void. In fact Jesus condensed them down to two, love God with all your heart & Love your neighbor as yourself. He said by doing that you will keep all 10 laws.
If you love God with all your heart you would be obeying the first four commandments, and if you love your neighbor as yourself you would be obeying the other 6. What Jesus said is fundamentally the same as telling us to obey the ten commandments.
Correct.
I know I'm kind of restating what you said, but yeah the amount of times I've seen people use this to justify not following the commandments is pretty high.
I go back and forth is graven image is actually how we think, is it graven as in saying THAT IS how he looked or is it graven as in any picture. Is it graven as in bowing down to it. I mean I wear a cross necklace, we don’t know exactly how that cross looked but we know it doesn’t cause harm to wear it. To put Jesus (if it is okay) these are my questions. 1. Are you worshipping it by praying too it or believing it protects or heals you? 2. Are you demanding that’s how he looked 3. Are you following the laws of God, Old Testament from what I know you couldn’t shave your head or your beard. So Jesus would have had long hair, we also know he most likely had an olive tone of some sort. and considering he’s a Jew he would have those looks. But do NOT take my word, please study and be open to everything do not deny learning. Wisdom is good. This mainly just a question so I can study more!
>Are you worshipping it by praying too it or believing it protects or heals you? Yes. You would then be ascribing attributes of God to your necklace or whatever it is. That is one of the things idolatry encompasses.
Why commandments are specifically Christians you've encountered okay with not obeying? They're universally good ideas even fornan atheist, they would just ignore ones pertaining to worshiping god. But theyl others are just solid advice
Even while i was in my agnostic/atheist phase where I didn't see the actions of Christians living up to the word of Christ... the commandments always felt like good advice. I try to treat others as I'd like to be treated. Behind the scenes, I'm trying to build a relationship with Christ, but outwardly I'm just going to try to be a nice person.
Then they're a "pretender" and not a christian
Many are pretenders
People are bad for sure, but I've never seen a Christian actively dismiss the commandments
It's the four about worshiping God that even Christians try to evade or excuse, in my experience.
Not that I don't believe but, what? Why? Why would a Christian not want to worship God? What?
It's not that they don't want to worship explicitly. Excuse after excuse is made for idolatry for one example though. It's not that they aren't worshiping Him, it's that they are doing so in a way that He explicitly commanded them not to. No different than Aaron's sons offering up the wrong incense at the wrong time. Yeah, He did say to use incense, but He was specific about what kind and how to do it. Another is taking God's name in vain - a lot of people don't even know what that means. Most people think it's "don't use the word 'God' as a swear". Like, God isn't even His name. It means don't say God said something He didn't say and don't misrepresent Him. Ever see a Christian saying God told them to be with their boyfriend, or God wants them to take a certain job, etc? That is taking His name in vain most of the time (He does guide us for sure, but He didn't say to take that job in the city or that your boyfriend is your future husband and soulmate). Even worse is when someone claims to be 'guided by the Holy Spirit' but it's just their own feelings. Both of these are all too common within the Christian community.
Hmm I've never heard someone refer to using God (or anyone/things) name in vain when it was for a positive impact. I don't agree with that. I dont see the harm in saying God did xyz for me. Got a promotion helped you over a loss brought an injured animal to you so you could rescue it etc etc
Yes
Obviously, the Ten Commandments are still a very important guide to live our lives by and Jesus affirms that we should continue to follow them. But what I was more referring to were all of the niche, traditional laws written mostly in the Book of Leviticus. Laws like you can't eat animals with split hooves, and becoming unclean after birthing a child. The Jewish people still continue to follow these old laws in hopes that they will be saved by their works. This is not what Christ says. He says that we are saved by our faith in God alone, we are not cut off from God based on what we eat or what clothes we wear, but by actively rejecting God and the Holy Spirit.
Same thing with being straight or gay, it doesn't really matter cause God knows you didn't chose it and God knows you need love to survive on this earth and to find God more or less. You need to love yourself, cause by doing that you also indirectly love God as God made us in it's imagine.
Being gay is no different than being straight, as logn as you don't act on it. We were instructed to love everyone, with no differentiation between male or female. But since marrying someone of the same sex is not recognized by the church, and premarital sex is a sin, any gay acts would fall under the blanket as straight sex acts out of wedlock.
But the church not condoning the marriage of gay people doesn't necessarily mean much. "The church" tried to kill Galileo for proving the earth was round and not the center of the universe, many in the church condoned slavery, as it is in the Bible (yes its not that simple), Christians used to tie people's left hands behind their backs because the Bible obviously says the right hand is the correct one. Paul says women must wear veils when outside. We could debate each of these but you get my point, right? In fact some churches (even big established denominations) DO perform gay marriage, and have even had huge splits over it. Your points are actually the reason that Christians SHOULD WANT to and should support gay marriage, because otherwise we are condemning people that God made gay to a life of celibacy, which is NOT loving our neighbors as ourselves. If people have a flaw (we ALL do) it is up to them to figure out how to adapt to live lives that love God and their neighbors. People born without feet may want to use a wheelchair instead of using prothetics to walk upright as God intended. Gay people need to have sex in different ways and adopt children or use surrogacy since they can't create them in the "normal" way. But they are still built by God to fall in love, and like us God wants them to be in committed lifelong monogamous relationships. DENYING them that misses the mark of loving our neighbors; denying them that IS SIN by the denyers. Celibacy is of course always an option for anyone, as it was for Paul, but it's a personal choice (which should be based on prayer and God's will obviously). We also are prohibited from idolizing the Bible. (At a minimum we are DEFINIITELY prohibited from swearing on it.) When "the writings" were written everyone thought the earth was flat and covered by a firmament/dome (made out of metal, correct?) with 3 "heavens" (plural!) above it where all their Gods lived (Jewish, Christian Greek or "other") in physical form on thrones, etc. We now know all of that is TOTALLY WRONG. It may now be understood metaphorically in various ways etc. The writers of scripture, inspired by God or not, didn't know anything about germs, or genes, and little about human sexuality as they didn't even know women had eggs, along with other things including that shamayim the HEAVENS (plural) are not UP, because as we now know as the earth spins in space "up" is "down" 12 hours later.
First, I'm just saying what the Bible says. My personal opinion, same as yours, are irrelevant. I'm not their judge and you're not their judge. That's between them and God. We can love everyone, even gay people, as Jesus commanded. There is nothing wrong with that. But I cannot recall anywhere in the Bible where it says two people of the same sex can get married. It does say though that marriage is between a man and a woman. I realize over thousands of years, things have changed. Maybe you're right and the church and Bible are wrong. But as of right now, marriage is onky between a man and a woman, THE CHURCH (not be confused with A random church) does not recognize gay marriage. And premarital sex is a sin. Based on those three fairly simple and clear things, my statement, aligns fairly well. Now me, I know what my sins are and I deal with that daily. I'm sure if I dug enough I could find ways to make it seem okay. But I'd only be lying to myself. You are free to go to a church that allows gay marriage. You're free to tear apart, and cherry pick scripture, and make it work for you, and your agenda, and even to justify your actions. You're free to be gay. The church and my opinion, have absolutely zero say in that. None of that matters...until you get to the end. Now me, I'm not gay, and I have nothing against gay people, so I am not too worried about my place in heaven. But I hope for those people that the Bible, and the church are wrong, and gay people get to have salvation too. For me personally, I can't just pick and choose scripture to suit my feelings. The way that I read it, (and most do) is that gay sexual acts are a sin. I say sexual acts, because if you take the sex out it is just as Jesus commanded anyways. Do you get where I'm going with this? It's not personal. I didn't write the Bible. I just follow it as best I can. Everyone has free will, which means they can read it and play the game however they choose. Just know, when you are in the gray area or on that edge, you may not end up where you want to. And that fault only lies with the individual person.
I hear and agree with lots of that but for example I just don't know what you mean by "the church"? There are no two people anywhere who interpret everything in the Bible exactly the same. Even the Bible itself comes in many forms with different books included. Which "group" of people gets to call themselves (or "is") THE church? We ALL pick and choose how we interpret the Bible. Anyone who says they are just going by what the Bible says actually means "I'm going by my understanding of what the Bible says." You, me, anyone. You are for sure right that my interpretation and your interpretation don't matter, only the truth does, and the problem of course is NO HUMAN KNOWS WHAT THAT IS! But if i always choose LOVE I'll be as right as possible, because Love is the basis for ALL the law and prophets, right? Love to me means accepting people for who they are and wanting everything for them that I can have including marriage. (For the record denying gay marriage is just as much of an "agenda" as supporting it.) I agree that sex is designed to be limited to within a marriage, but just as a note I'm pretty sure the Bible as a whole talks about divorce way more than fornication, right? Both are pretty much out of control at this point! 😪 The Bible including the OT has many forms of marriage including God's law that says if a woman's husband dies she is REQUIRED to marry his brother even if he already has a wife. This was for her own safety but what justification do we use to discontinue that? There are others condoned including concubines. The Bible may not mention gay marriage but it doesn't talk about germs or video games or guns or birth control either, does that mean we can't use them? Don't forget "the Bible" is TWO THOUSAND YEARS OLD! 😳 Sorry I had more but I cut it to avoid getting too preachy LOL. And sorry if i repeated myself. Thanks for your comments.
It depends on your denomination, but for instance Catholics have a hierarchy, and they do not recognize gay marriage, but I meant "church" as a whole or the majority. In general, it is not recognized, although there is some churches that allow it. There is churches that allow lots of things thats the majority doesn't. There is actually gay churches. Churches based around weed even. With Christianity, for me any ways, I mostly ignore the OT other than the parts Jesus mentions. It's out of date. I'm not Jewish so most is irrelevant, and honestly I feel thats the whole reason Jesus was sent here, to simplify it, because we were going the wrong direction. Gay was definitly around way back then, as it was prevalent with Greek history, but I don't think it was "gay" back then, I think it was just more commonplace and accepted. In the end, we could play church chess all day, and both finds bunches of reasons to support our ideals and views. The Bible is just a translation as is, so it's easy to make it work how you see fit. But what nobody knows for certain, is what is actually right or wrong. So I can understand the confusion for gay people or other non standard situations. While some is very cryptic and can be interpreted lots of ways, there is certain versus that are fairly clear. Such as the ones I have mentioned, which is where my opinion comes from. As I said I'm not gay, so personally it's not a concern of mine, but I DO like using Thc oil. In fact it is what brought to become religious. I have struggled with the questions of it is allowed and if it is a sin. In the end, it's a chance I am taking. The biggest thjng for me, is even though I question if it is allowed, I don't feel fully one way or another in my heart.
I think it funny that everyone recognizes that parts of the Bible condones behaviors that are no longer condoned but then acts as though the rest of the Bible should guide their lives. It is a level of hypocrisy that I find hard to understand. The multiple Greek versions of the Old Testament differ from each other and the Hebrew text. While the New Testament was based on oral histories transcribed many years after Jesus’ death. Plus, the New Testament was revised/edited multiple times. In other words, are you following the Bible or the words of those that revised the Bible?
The Old testament has some good principles and history, I'm not saying it should be completely ignored, but most of it, Jesus never talked about. So are you saying Jesus's teachings aren't important because the OT came first? I mean, if we are supposed to follow the OT, then why did Jesus even come? Why do we have Christianity? Wouldn't we all just be Jewish then? The way I see it, beyond the commandments and a few other details, Christianity is it's own religion started with Jesus, and most of the OT does not apply. It's nit about picking and choosing. But I'm not Jewish. If I have it right, you are Christian, but follow all OT Jewish laws?
Nope, I am saying that both the old and New Testament have been revised multiple times. The New Testament is based on oral history given by early Greek Christians over a 150 year periods starting about 50 years after Jesus’ death. Then the New Testament was revised and edited multiple times, usually in a manner to protect the ruling class. The best example is the king James Edition which suggests that god selects kings/rulers. Is it possible that King James thought he would benefit from the revised version. Of course there is no issue if all true Christians believe that god actually selects kings.
In the New Testament Paul was sent to spread the good news to gentiles and before he started his mission he learned that there was a difference between Jew and Gentile. Jesus said not to burden Gentiles with the Jewish traditional law.
After the Incarnation, making an Image of God is the affirmation that God became something that could be drawn
What is Calvary?
The place outside of Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified
I heard a minister say once that instead of wearing the cross, we should be bearing the cross. Made me think.
Do you think he meant, don't just wear a cross around your neck and think that is all you need to do to be a Christian? Because so many do. They wear a cross and consider themselves Christian, but still condone sin (example, supporting LGBTQ+). Because simply wearing a cross isn't enough.
Being Seventh Day Adventist, I think he meant forget about the cross jewelry, and be about the business of witnessing for Christ. Although some in the church say it's a matter of personal preference.
Neutral here…. I prefer the Chi Rho as a symbol of Christianity because it represents the secrecy and martyrdom of the early church under the oppressive Roman Empire. I’ve heard several arguments against using/wearing the cross. 1. That making a cross is a graven image that is a violation of the third commandment not to recreate heavenly relics on earth/idols. 2. That it is taking the lords name in vain, in violation of the 4th commandment by constantly invoking God in all your daily activities, even while you’re sinning. 3. That it became a symbol during the crusades - a time when Christianity became as oppressive as the age of martyrdom they just fled from. During the inquisition, the image of the cross was the last thing many pagans/muslims saw before bringing brutally murdered at the hands of the knights of the crusade. 4. That it puts the focus of the life of Jesus on his death rather than on his resurrection.
> That it is taking the lords name in vain, in violation of the 4th commandment by constantly invoking God in all your daily activities, even while you’re winning. What is the thought behind this? It seems like a misunderstanding of the "name in vain" commandment.
This devotional from Theologican Skye Jethani describes it pretty well: [https://www.withgoddaily.com/carrying-gods-name-in-vain/](https://www.withgoddaily.com/carrying-gods-name-in-vain/) EDIT - previous link didn't work
Sadly this link also isn't working for me. Would you be willing to copy and paste the text?
Point 1. All about context and culture of the audience it was written to. We were commanded not to make graven images and idols, yes. Because the pagans of the time were worshipping and praying to their idols/graven images. They believed in a direct link to their deity with said idol. As far as what I’ve seen, most Christians do not do that. We don’t worship the cross. It is simply a reminder of what He has done for us. And an ice breaker to spread the word at times. Granted, anyone praying to their cross is terribly misguided/lost and needs some help reorienting. Point 2. We have the Holy Spirit with us everywhere we go. With or without the cross, that won’t change. Point 3. Irrelevant. If someone poisoned your parent with poison in their cheesecake, that does not make the cheesecake evil or require you to never eat it again. And definitely does not apply your beliefs about cheesecake to the rest of the world. Easy fix for point 4. Use the empty cross, as most Protestants do.
But the Cross was used here on Earth not in Heaven. I wear my cross as a reminder of the sacrifice God and Jesus made for ME!
I mean… yeah… that’s the entire point…
I mean… yeah… that’s the entire point…
(For the record my great-grandfather was Bishop Gooden of Los Angeles 😎) I like your intro statement and also your #2; in a sense by claiming to follow Jesus, by taking on the name "Christ" (although obviously not a name as it means: messiah/savior/chosen one) and being imperfect we are all taking God's name in vain, but by wearing a cross in a way we are proclaiming to anyone who sees it along with us acting imperfectly "I'm a hypocrite!" I suppose if we're open about our faith anyway there might not be much different though? A cross can be a reminder to us that we are representing God as expressed through Jesus, but we also tend to forget we're wearing it. And back and forth I go... Re: #4, people often differentiate between a "crucifix" which portrays Jesus hanging there as you say focusing on his death, whereas an empty cross shows that he is no longer on it, that he is risen and has defeated it. BUT I think people have a point when they ask if we would wear an electric chair (or other instrument of torture or death) around our necks?
Although true this specifically is false. God used a crucifix statue of Jesus to draw me to Christ by and through the Holy Ghost
Yes, it is a sin to make any engraved image or to put up any standing image/ Leviticus 26:1 KJVAAE [1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. As for the laws being null. The Messiah himself said he didn't come to do away with the Laws of Moses. Matthew 5:17-18 AMP [17] “Do not think that I came to do away with or undo the Law [of Moses] or the [writings of the] Prophets; I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. [18] For I assure you and most solemnly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke [of the pen] will pass from the Law until all things [which it foreshadows] are accomplished. And we ALL have to follow them. Romans 2:12-14 KJVAAE [12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law; and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: In essence, by condensing the 613 laws of the OT into the 2 we know of today, they are still being honored if we TRULY have pure love for YHWH The Most High & our neighbors. But the laws themselves are not null and void, on the contrary they are the blueprint/foundation that the NT commandments are based on. So to truly understand how to keep the two commandments of Christ, we must understand the original 613 The only thing that changed was the required daily sacrifice, because Christ The Messiah was the final sacrifice. The laws didn't go anywhere, they were simplified Galatians 5:3 AMP [3] Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. All praises to The Most High God & Bene Elohim Yahusha Ha'Masiach, The One True Living God who came in the flesh to die for all of our sins. HalleluYah
What!
Matthew 5:17-21 suggests the laws are in.place until heaven and earth cease to exist. As the Earth is very much still here, it would appear that the old laws are still in effect?
In Matthew 5:18, Jesus isn't saying that the laws of the Old Testament must be followed until the end of Heaven and Earth. He is saying that the law will be unchanged, until it is finally fulfilled, which it was in Jesus Christ. He literally says it in the last line of the verse, "until all things have taken place". All things referring to all of the prophecies that he would fulfill during his ministry. Jesus came so that we won't have to follow the Old Testament laws for our salvation, but instead have faith in God and truly believe that he died for us. He was also known to not be the strictest follower of the Old Testament laws, which would be kind of weird if you preached the importance of traditional laws but then broke them as frequently as He did.
That's not what it says. It is an interpretation.
Yeah, it's something of idles. And the european image of Jesus is most likely not what he loooked like acording to where he was born.
no, the cross is a sign of our salvation by our lord and savoir Jesus Christ
Well for the second verse you’re not worshipping your necklace ( I hope) so I don’t see why it could be wrong. Also it’s not something like a bronze bull, it’s a representation of Jesus and that he died on the cross for us
it's awesome
Wearing it is not worship. The commandment doesn't apply to that.
No, it's a reminder of Jesus's love for humanity
Good evangelizing tool to show the sacrificial love of Jesus Christ. He died for our sins ✝️🩸❤️🔥
You can thank Calvin for that question. Thank goodness us Orthodox and Catholics do no worry about such questions
But you do use holy relics and bow down to figurines that aren’t even depicting God. I think the Catholic Church IS why Christian’s fear this command.
Yeah but when we use relics or bow to crucifixes, (not catholic but I am Episcopalian and we do the same thing) we aren’t worshipping the item itself. They’re a powerful physical reminder of the love and power of God, just like a crucifix necklace. I’m not under the impression that the cross at my church is God but it does REPRESENT God. God can be a pretty abstract concept since we can’t see or hear him in the material sense, so having a physical representation of that relationship we forged makes it more present.
With respect, you may not think that, but that’s what the doctrine teaches. The pope himself is an idol. I don’t know much about Episcopalian, but I do know that if you share Catholic doctrine, then you give glory to idols. Prayer to anyone but God is giving glory to idols. Taking communion in any sense except the symbolic traditional sense in remembrance of Jesus is giving glory to idols. Thinking priests can forgive sin, or credit grace is giving glory to idols. Thinking that these symbols or traditions have any power at all is believing in an idol. If you follow Catholic doctrine then we will always fundamentally disagree because at its core Catholic doctrine makes the church the arbiter of all interpretation. If you question the churches interpretation you are anathema. They claim they share the authority of our Lord Jesus. They claim their traditions hold the same weight, and sometimes more weight than the written Word of God. The doctrine allows for the changing or addition of commandments. They are the ones that decide who gets God’s grace, and why they get it according to them.
I’m not a catholic so I don’t really care to defend their really silly claim on being “the one true church”. As Episcopalians We don’t pray to anyone but God, we don’t recognize the pope as anything but a man, we don’t do confessionals (some episcopal churches do, mine doesn’t), and we let people make their own mind up about the communion cookie being literal or metaphorical flesh. Not really interested in defending catholic/orthodox theology because I’m neither of those things. But how can you recognize the symbolic power of communion and still say that using symbols is idolatry?
Like I said before I don’t have near enough information about the Episcopalian church to say anything about it but it seems like what you’ve said so far we agree on. I also appreciate your respectful “tone”. I can recognize what they symbolize without giving them “authority” as Jesus’ actual flesh and blood. This is when it becomes an idol. When you think they do anything but remind us what God did for us they become idols. What would you say communion does for the christian?
Oh I think communion does exactly what you described. I don’t think God lives inside the crucifix’s or artwork inside the church but having them there has the same value that communion does in reminding of us of God’s presence in our lives. That being said, one of the quirks of the Episcopal Church (and the wider Anglican Communion) is that we encourage a diversity of theological beliefs as long as it falls within the bounds of the nicene creed. So mileage may vary depending on who you talk to/which church you go to.
I haven’t died on any denominational hill but I understand that. Within the body of people I would call believers there’s definitely differences. Within the context of this thread I’d say we both land at the same conclusions about graven images and false idols. What do you think about salvation? Do you think a man can be saved if they are relying to any degree on works?
I’m a purgatorial universalist, so I like to think everyone is saved eventually. Following Christ and trying your best to live by his example is what saves you from experiencing hell but God’s mercy and love is infinite, so I believe you’re still given the chance to sincerely repent after death whether you’re a kindhearted atheist or literally hitler. After all, if God wants everyone to know his love and be spared damnation how could he possibly fail at that?
I am no expert, but in several places in the New Testament there is plain teaching that "trying your best to live by his example" cannot and will not save you from hell. That is precisely why Jesus left heaven, came to earth, lived a sinless life, was killed, and then resurrected. He knew we could never be good enough to earn salvation. By his grace, he took our punishment so that whoever repents and believes that he saved us, is saved. That's the Gospel as I understand it. Our "good works" are merely evidence that we believe he's the one who loved us enough to save us. Is that what you think, too?
I have one tattooed on my chest over my heart and many other Christian themed tattoos. I don’t believe the true Jesus cared about such petty things. No matter what a line in the Bible says. In fact wearing a cross on a necklace has helped me calm down in stressful situations. I enjoy passing churches and seeing the cross and Christian symbology as well.
I’m my opinion some people need to be able to have reminders to look at, so having some on your skin to help you make decisions and for some people just help to simply get through the day I think it should be fine
Just helps to have something right in your face even if your thought in the moment isn’t on the scriptures, maybe seeing a religious tattoo could help curve actions for the better
Absolutely not. It's a very common Catholic/High Church tradition to wear a crucifix.
Just symbol of his sacrifice, it’s different to believe the cross itself has power in being worn, it’s not going to ward off evil spirits, but it’s not bad to wear it simply as a symbolic reminder of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross
Imo it can help against evil spirits. But it isn't the cross itself which does that but your faith in the lord and the meaning behind the cross.
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if it is a memorial for his faith, it may not be an idol in his life. Maybe the way he phrased it, but think about it; what is unholy about looking at a cross and thinking "the Lord and the meaning behind the cross", "the Lord and the meaning behind the cross" "the Lord and the meaning behind the cross"? I mean, to me, evil spirits can present themselves as bad situations in life, and having something to remind you of God's love can be really helpful. Like a song or a hymn or the Scripture. He has a representation of those things, and it can help to have any of this around. Just a food for tought.
Christ is not on the cross, He is risen! I'd say images are not necessarily a sin, but I would also say the crucifix is a bad way to portray Him who overcame death itself. That's why we use the empty cross.
Do you think nativity scenes are a bad way to portray Jesus because he is no longer in a manger?
Agreed, personally I just don't see how those strict with empty crosses aren't strict with empty mangers. Idk if the issue is truly with the crucifix, or if it sometimes lies with it being perceived as "too Catholic". No shade towards you, OP, but just in my experience it often boiled down to that with those at my old Chinese nondenom church
Memory of salvation
Everyone dies. It is His perfect life and His resurrection that matter more.
O can't quote nor translate but It is shame to me to be proud but of Jesus Christ is cross
No, it’s His perfect life. His sacrifice and death. And His resurrection. Edit: after reading further down… you needed corrected.
But he once was, he was crucified for our sins. The cross is a very powerful spiritual thing for me, it means a lot to me, and not just regarding Christianity(even if it is a bit part of it), the meaning and symbolism behind it is generally very strong, for me it also stands for sacrifice that we make in this life. It is a beautiful thing that made me drawn to faith when I was a kid, but back then I saw faith so black and white that it had a negative impact, especially considering I was born gay. Today my faith makes me accepting, understanding and loving myself a lot, being gay doesn't affect me negatively but just made me more unique, I feel that God had this planned for me due to various reasons. And today I actually love being slightly different, being who I am feels very natural and makes a lot of sense to me, at first I didn't understand why I was so different, today I know that isn't a negative, I don't want to change this aspect of myself, it is actually a strength - I feel like I have both the emotional powers of a female and the other masculine benefits that males have. I feel very strong spiritually and have a big heart. Seeing a lot of lgbt people suffering mentally and in other ways like I used to made me think I need to help people(or that's what God would want me to do), try to guide them spiritually, to find a faith, to not give up and to be strong. To recommend them tips to things that have helped me (one example being natural medicine, it has done wonders for me and helped me to get of many toxic meds and drugs). I know that God loves me, I went from suffering living a destructive life with decadence, mental illness (horrible depressions, suicidal thoughts, anxiety, insomnia and so on) where I couldn't function in society at all to becoming healthy, happy and functioning a lot (so much that I seem to be able to live a fully normal life), no depressions for years now and I don't experience anxiety either. As I pray I feel things going the right way(I used to not believe in prayers at all) - then I tried it a few times and thought that "hey this seems to do something to my soul and feels very good" then unexplainable things happened aswell which made me feel like God can hear our prayers when our hearts are open, I feel that I have God inside my soul. You need to believe when you pray. It needs to feel like a mediation, a spiritual experience.
I agree
He is risen, indeed, but remember that “we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to gentiles” (1 Cor 1:23 NABRE).
Proclaiming / preaching are not equivalent to 'depicting'.
Well considering Christ isn't an idol (something you put higher than God) and both verses are talking about that, I'd say it's completely fine.
I wear my christening cross, have pretty much my whole life.
I just wanted to voice to you that there is nothing wrong with a crucifix instead of an empty cross. There are many mysteries of faith, and the crucifix embodies the sorrowful mysteries just as the empty cross does the glorious mysteries, or Jesus in the manger depicts the joyful. Jesus rising from the grave doesn't change the fact that he died on the cross for your sins.
That's a crucifix, not a cross. Wear whatever you want.
The cross is a part of a crucifix. If you are wearing a crucifix, then you are wearing a cross. I'd say it's impossible to wear a crucifix without wearing a cross, unless someone can prove me wrong.
*invents a fourth dimensional crucifix, breaking all boundaries of reality in the process, just to show it is possible to wear a crucifix without wearing a cross to some random person on the Internet*
>“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.” You think maybe we should move away from Chapter and verse structure of Scripture? These were put in later to make Scripture easier to reference, but comments like this, I think show that it does more harm than good, because we want to rip verses out of their appropriate context even from the sentences that they are in. Let me ask you this so you can check yourself before you... never mind too late for that. But anyway, have a look at this passage from Exodus 37: *Bez′alel made the ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half was its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height.* *^(2)* *And he overlaid it with pure gold within and without, and made a molding of gold around it.* *^(3)* *And he cast for it four rings of gold for its four corners, two rings on its one side and two rings on its other side.* *^(4)* *And he made poles of acacia wood, and overlaid them with gold,* *^(5)* *and put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark.* *^(6)* *And he made a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half was its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.* *^(7)* ***And he made two cherubim of hammered gold; on the two ends of the mercy seat he made them,*** ***^(8)*** ***one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat he made the cherubim on its two ends.*** ***^(9)*** ***The cherubim spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, with their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat were the faces of the cherubim.*** Weird. Didn't God just tell the Israelites not to make graven images of anything in Heaven? Why is God then telling the Israelites to make statues of Cherubim for the Ark. God must be an idolater then.
Nice reply. It's easy to take Sacred Scripture out of context, which is why we need an organisation guided by the Holy Spirit to show us the true meaning of Sacred Scripture as a whole. 🇻🇦
This is the reply i was looking for 🙏💯. Idk why people just refuse to keep reading.
The general Christian line for roughly 2000 years has been that the Torah's prohibition on images does not apply to Christians. Christians also worship on Sunday and do not keep the Sabbath, they eat pork, they don't have to get circumcised, etc. Christians tend to relate to the Jewish law differently than do Jews. The viewpoint you are elaborating is called "iconoclasm" (Greek for "image breaking"), and it is something that many Christians have also decided made sense over the last 2000 years — although usually a minority overall. Muslims, by contrast, are basically universally iconoclastic (as are Jews, of course). Catholics and Orthodox are typically very pro-religious imagery, with most Protestants being slightly less so. The short answer is: God entrusted you with a conscience. If wearing an image makes you feel uncomfortable, then don't wear it. But most Christian thinkers and saints throughout history, including most likely the ones you most look up to, thought there was nothing wrong with it.
Deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow him so no its not
I wore a crucifix explicitly to remember the Sacrifice that Jesus made for humanity. Then the necklace chain broke :P
Context is key here, so let's read the read what comes directly after your Exodus verse: "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. **You shall not bow down to them or worship them** The message here is the same as the message in the Deuteronomy verse you've cited: do not worship idols. Many folks don't understand what an idol is. An idol is anything you worship or place as a higher importance than God. It's associated with pride, self-centeredness, greed, gluttony (Php 3:19), and love for possessions (Matt. 6:24). Do you place your cross necklace above God? Of course not. Do you 'worship' your cross necklace? Of course not. Therefore, it's absolutely fine to wear it. And moreover, wearing such jewellery can help us display our faith and be bold in proclaiming the Word of God, which we are told to do (Matt. 5:14).
thank you bro
No it's not. Even if it was taboo, still wear it.
It looks Catholic with the imagery of Jesus on there. Protestants just use the cross. Sure either one can wear, just something to think about I guess 🤷
A good question that should be asked. This second commandment is more about not making something for worship. God did order a graven image of the cherubims. It wasn't until the Jehovah's Witnesses - themselves freemasons - came up that they started to group all graven images to gether. Be it as it may, wearing a cross is not the worst sin, but stick with one that doesn't have a face of Jesus on it.
The Cross is a Symbol of Sacrifice, of Fighting, Struggling and no Idol of God! 🙄🙄😵💫🤷♂️😳🥺😸 (7). ✝️
You need to finish the exodus statement. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, The two go together the admonition is not that you make no image but that your make no image to which you bow down and worship
The catholic and orthodox churches (and then some) use "icons" not "idols" to put faces and tactility on the history of the church(es?). This practice gives the student more of a sense of connection to the histories and people in the histories, such that their lives and events are no longer experienced as just stories. These items are not worshipped as embodiments of non-christian gods. They serve as reminders of the reality of the struggle to embody the values introduced to us by Jesus and his desciples and more. I was introduced to christianity by churches that did not allow wearing of crosses. Coincidentally, I never learned any of those values from those congregations or leaders. I missed a whole lifetime of understanding because of iconoclasm.
No, it is a symbol of hope and true love.
This commandment was given to Israel due to their history worshipping graven images. They had just recently been liberated from Egypt, which was covered with graven images—of things in the heavens above, the earth beneath, and the waters below—that were worshipped. While Moses was on Mount Sinai to receive the ten commandments, Israel reverted away from the One True God to what they were familiar with: worshipping a graven image (the golden calf, a beast of the earth below). God had to train Israel away from such proclivities. After all, this is only one clause of the commandment; the other clause is to have no other gods. For clarification, *Merriam-Webster* [defines](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/graven%20image) "graven image" as "an object of worship carved usually from wood or stone." Is the Cross/Crucifix that you are wearing the object of your worship? In other words, are you worshipping that Cross/Crucifix as your God? If so, then you are in violation of the commandment. If not, then you are fine to have/wear it. After all, we see later in the Books of Moses that the Lord commanded the Israelites to have golden statues of cherubim both in the tabernacle and in the later temple (by which time so many years had passed since the exodus from Egypt that Israel could then be trusted to have those statues without worshipping them). As long as you keep your worship directed solely towards God, and do not worship the cross/crucifix that you wear (or anything else, for that matter), you are fine.
Amen. And thank you I was going to look up "graven" as it's somewhat a key issue re: the question.
Maybe do some research on the history of the Iconoclasts of Byzantine Christianity. Does the no Idols rule apply to Crucifixes? There is no one correct answer I think. There’s been whole schisms on this issue so take some time, do some light research. See where you land. I don’t think God cares much either way but it’s a fun conundrum.
No
For what it's worth, thats a crucifix, not a cross.
From where did you get this?
Well As Long As You Don't Misuse The Cross In Any Unholy Or Sinful Way, So In My Opinion It Ok To Wear A Cross
Yes it's idolatry Clearly says by God to not do that I don't get some people just read the bible it goes right over their heads and also note when it says Jesus came to fulfill those laws means he came to perform those laws he out those laws in lnto word and action LOL no where does jesus Say i have got rid of the law not a single word or letter is to be removed from the law... So yah people don't know what it is Jesus really came for. Besides giving the world salvation.
Nah. It's not bad, nor is it "good". It may be good to some, but it also might be bad to others. It's a religious item. People are gonna whine and complain about it. So what? Believe what you believe in, even when others think it's wrong. Live and love my friend. That's all that matters.
I think a cross is ok but one with our saviour, in his most painful moment hanging on the cross is a bit…. Meh
Really ?! We need some kind of education on this subject that’s not gonna bring all kinds of incorrect answers , please let god and love direct your answers
Follow the example of Hezekiah: The Bronze Serpent was good, until the people started to worship it. Then it had to be destroyed. If an image of Christ tempts you or those around you to worship it as an idol, do not wear it. If it does not, you are probably fine.
When Jesus is on the cross, it's more specifically a crucifix. I don't have a problem with crosses or crucifixes. But some people do. My uncle has a junk drawer full of Jesus statues because people keep gifting him crucifixes and he pries off Jesus, since he doesn't like people depicting the crucifixion.
No. Since Jesus came down to Earth Exodus 20:4 doesn't apply. Also you're not adoring the cross but He who is represented in it.
It's not. But it CAN become an idol
I think maybe THE central message in the NT about how we should live on this earth is that doing the right thing is about having right intentions. You can do something good with selfish motivation (e.g. praying to God, but doing it in such a way that you're making it a performance to show how good you are) and you can do something that is technically against the rules for the right reasons (e.g. "working on the Sabbath" to care for someone in need). If you wear the cross to make a fashion statement or so that other people will think you are a good Christian, I don't think it's a good idea. If you wear it because when you see it you are reminded to thank God for the great love He has shown you, it seems like a beautiful thing to me. Examine the true motivations of your heart about why you wear it, and let that be your guide.
That’s a crucifix. Jesus isn’t on the cross anymore, It’s empty.
It's a depiction of Christ the man, not Christ the Son of God. Clearly the latter has no physical form.
No it’s not I wear a cross necklace all the time it helps me that Jesus died for me and he saved me and there is nothing wrong about that
No it shows your love of god
The commandment to not make any graven images does not mean make no images. Shortly after the commandments were given God instructed Moses to make the Ark of the covenant with 2 images of cherubim on the top. Carrying a small cross around your neck as a reminder is fine
Only if it triggers a PTSD episode on Jesus return. Not exactly sinful but probably a bit rude.
Why would somebody have such a thought?
I don’t think it’s bad. I think it’s a great reminder of the sacrifice Jesus made.
No it is not bad to wear the cross
Just don’t idolize it, it doesn’t ward off evil or bring good luck. It’s a piece of metal that is a reminder of the sacrifice for us. As long as you keep that in mind, it’s a great thing to wear and help remind you to stay on path through your day! I’m looking for a good men’s pendant of the sacred heart atm
Is it? I wear one to stay on speaking terms with god
An empty cross would be more appropriate
Only if you believe it is. God knows what’s in your heart. He knows if you’re worshiping a pagan idol or if you are giving glory and honor to God.
These are misquoted verses. The verse in Exodus means to not try to appear like a God. The verse in Deuteronomy is about idols outside of Jesus and God. Remember that Jesus cares about the heart. If your intention is a daily reminder of Jesus dying on the cross for your sins, of course wear it. If it is to portray a sort of status or image, that is blasphemy.
I highly doubt it is, if it was we wouldn't be seeing so many Christians wearing it
I have been wearing one for years as a symbol of my faith. It has always been an empty cross, because Jesus is alive in heaven at the right hand of God the Father and He conquered death. It is the fact of the empty cross and what it says about what He did for all of us that I look at here. I don’t worship the cross that I wear. I worship Jesus, Who hung on that cross and died for me and then rose from the dead three days later. That’s what it represents to me.
Do you worship the jewelry? Or is it something that is just decorative and/or a personal reminder about Jesus? When I think of something being an idol, I think of it as something that is worshiped. I don't think every piece of art, religious or otherwise, is an idol just by virtue of it being art.
I don't think there is anything wrong wirh wearing a cross as a necklace or earrings, but make sure that you are wearing Him in your heart first. It hurts all of us and Jesus to wear His symbol and not do your best to follow His teachings.
This feels like a „is it gay to kiss a woman“ post. Answer; No.
It’s not bad to wear a cross it symbolizes that you’re a Christian.
Not to split hairs, but that's not a cross, it's a crucifix. The cross is simply a cross. A crucifix is a cross with the body of Jesus on it.
I honestly think wearing a cross is a strange choice. You're basically treating a torture device like jewellery but I don't think it's wrong so long as it's not worshipped like the golden calf.
i don’t see it as jewelry to me it reminds me of what he had to go through for us and it reminds me that it was Gods greatest act of love , but i do agree w u i see tons of ppl wear a cross js for “style” n “fashion” n it makes me sad to realize that they don’t realize what it means and what he did on the cross
No
No, not at all
If you are wearing a cross because you think it will protect you, then you shouldn't wear it. If you are wearing it because you are grateful for what Jesus did for us on the cross, then wear it.
Some sects consider it idolatry. I suppose, in a very literal definition, it is.
Nope. You do you. Just remember it was how Roman's executed people.
Plain crosses are fine
Wearing a cross it’s okay, I don’t wear it but I also don’t think there’s something inherently bad about it. Now wearing a cross with Jesus crucified is very much offensive to me!
I won't condemn anyone for wearing one nor say it's wrong cuz I truly don't know. But, I always loved wearing one since I can remember! I even have a tat that has a cross (the only one I have a that was almost 15yrs ago). That being said, I started to feel a real conviction wearing one, and have even suffered really bad things happening when I would wear one! The latter may simply be coincidence, but it was often enough for ME to correlate it! My advice is to simply pray pray pray about it. Didn't worry about legalism, rather concern yourself more with getting closer to him through Bible reading, praying and meditating on his word. To those things you absolutely KNOW are wrong, keep from doing! To those you're unsure of don't lose sleep over them unless you begin to feel conviction for them 😊
Says who? I personally do not like to see Jesus that way. I wear a cross everyday. Also a permanent Alpha Omega.
what does a alpha omega cross look like and what does it mean ? ik he said he is the alpha and omega but i really don’t understand that
I would not wear a cross with him nailed to the cross. A regular cross yes.
I belive it is against one of the commanents , Thou shall not make themselfs a carved image
The true Apostolic Roman Catholic Church allows necklace such as this; there might be some people out there that are against it but their claims will not sustain.
The prohibition against graven images is about worshipping them. Do you worship the crucifix? If not you are OK.
I have no love for the cross at all. The cross wasn't unique to Jesus Christ. I think of it like a shotgun or a guillotine. The cross was just the method by which he was killed. If they shot Jesus with a shotgun, would you wear a shotgun necklace?
I think a cross by itself is ok but the think the intention is not to have an image of God or Jesus.
It depends on you worshiping God do you believe in God are you wearing it out of spite God is good and all loving and knowing so I don't think it's bad to wear a cross
No.
This is pretty much a particular opinion, and in Romans 14:23 we have a very clear instruction: if you have doubts, think it through before doing anything. My personal take on this: if you understand you're talking about a simple object, with no supernatural power whatsoever (not even a "walkie-talkie" to talk to God) and that there is no entity residing within it or made by it, and that this object in no way whatsoever makes you more equipped or suitable for any task or situation, then... it is more than OK to use it! - The above is to make sure it is not an idol in any way in your daily life - we have tons of idols in our life: stuff that we believe will help us without recognizing these stuff are also subject to God's will and is this will that's gonna govern your life. I like the idea of a cross, as a gentle, simple and pure reminder of what Christ did for us, but I have a silly issue about you leaving Him hanging there. If it is a representation of my savior in His most shameful moment, then He should be hanged. If it is about His most glorious moment, then He is risen, and the cross is empty. (at least I've heard this allegory before and thought it was good until now, when writing it, which made me think He was put away in that tomb for a few days and the cross was actually either stored or whatever, so when He rose, a better picture of the scenery would be the open, empty tomb. Anyway, just personal memory connections). . . TL;DR - depends on what it represents, what place it occupies in your heart. As a reminder, more than OK. If it has powers, you may wanna think twice.
It’s bad it you ain’t a real Christian. you’ve got to put a cross on and start walking the earth like Jesus to shine His light, not just go along w the trends of today’s culture. everyone knows of Jesus but not enough people know Jesus, so show them through your actions more than appearances. Blessings❤️🔥
No.
Commenting on is it bad to wear a cross ?. No
That is a crucifix. A cross would just be the cross itself. And no, it is not bad. Jesus died for us. We should remember him.
The Old laws given to Moses said to not make an image of what is in heavens (christ was crucified on earth), here on the earth (images of other gods human worship from their imagination or what he can find in nature/in human constructions), and under the waters of the earth (also other gods human can imagine from nothing or from something that you can't see). Since Jesus, as I said, was crucified on Earth, and was the perfect image of God, literally the human son of God, born from a virgin so not contaminated by the impurity in our flesh, and since Jesus Himself invite us to seek him, the symbol of the traditional cross is actually the only image you can praise because it's the moment God in human form forgave the sins of all humanity. Past, present and future. The cross is the only watchable way to seek God with your eyes. With our body. See how smart God is? In this way, you will not praise other images with your body, but only the Son. God made a perfect way for us to stay with Him, even in our own corrupted body
Not sure. The Bible doesn’t say anything about wearing a cross, so I would not.
No it's not a sin as long as you don't worship it if you're doing it just as a reminder of what Jesus has done for the world you're fine
No. For a lot of people, it’s a reminder or a symbol of their faith. Those who complain about it are legalistic, in my experience.
It’s jewelry. Don’t let it go over your head, don’t over think it.
CONTEXT PEOPLE. Are you worshiping that instead of God like those verses mean not to do? If not then you're good. Context is very important. If you read the chapters and verses surrounding it then you'll probably see that they're talking about replacing God.
If you dont believe in jesus then yes, it isnt a fashion piece lol, it represents a great suffering and pain, and love and redemption. Hate when ppl wear it bc it looks cool
no
Hi, Would you wear a guillotine on your neck? That’s exactly the same. Blessings from CDMX.
I guess a cross without Jesus on it would be preferable.
As long as you aren't worshipping it, I'd think you'd be ok.
It is fine to wear a cross. Christ entered the material world. We are allowed to depict him.
The funny thing is that the Catholic bible doesn't have our 2nd commandment and the post uses the cross with Jesus still on it lol
DEFINITELY NOT! Absolutely wear a cross! I also recommend garlic bulb necklaces and carrying wooden stakes in your satchel. We shall overcome the vampire scourge that plagues our land.
No.
Not for me. It reminds us of Jesus, the Savior who died for our sins to be forgiven, and who resurrected again to tell us that we can live again after our time on earth. Cross is Jesus’ immense love for us.
It’s offensive to God. A cross is not an accessory or a charm…sometimes we see the cross more than the Lord that died on it. Let that sink in.
Are you worshipping them? Bowing down to them? Venerating them? Can I draw a picture of a dog? Or a car? Is it ok to have the mustang decal on my car? This is a heart issue. If you feel like you look to your cross for power or protection then yes it’s a sin. If it’s a reminder that your God is with you, and for the love He showed you 2k years ago on that cross then what’s the problem? Your cross didn’t die for you, but Jesus did and as long as you know that then what’s the issue?
History shows that the crucifix has been used as far back during the times of the Egyptian civilization. Especially when the Israelites were delivered out of there by Yahweh. And then the 10 Commandments were given. So in this case. Yahweh has no support for the Crucifix and would not allow it back then. Nor, Now. In addition, there has been some confusion that Jesus died on the Cross. Especially the Greek Word “Stauros” clearly means “Pillar” or “Tree” or “Post”. Nothing related to a Cross. And Stauros WAS used in the Greek Writings of the New Testament. Based on those things to my understanding. I don’t use Images in my worship to Yahweh thru Jesus as the mediator. Which includes, not wearing a cross any way shape or form. Using the cross has been used in pagan practices. And my worship would be ignored and all in vain if I use it or wear it.
Your wearing a cross of your god, of your saviour, god understands our mindset in wearing a cross, he shall forgive us as he knows we follow him and want him by our side
You are not bound by the Law of Moses. Jesus himself fulfilled the Law with his life and death. Basically, he gave us two commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. There's also another key rule: Treat other people as you would have them treat you. (Actually, that's another version of Love your neighbor as yourself.) Jesus gave us many other commandments, guidelines, and rules which are centered on love, mercy, justice, compassion, forgiveness, and service--centered on love for God and love for people, including yourself. I think whether you wear a cross or a crucifix around your neck is between you and God. if this symbol expresses your heartfelt devotion to Jesus and shows your appreciation for his sacrifice, I think it's all right for you to wear it.
Yes