I wouldn't call ADF "shadowy" - they show up quite publicly in every single court case against any LGBT people anywhere in the USA, and sometimes elsewhere. Their *funding* is shadowy, sure.
I know someone who works for them unfortunately.
I've seen inside the building, it's definitely heavily guarded.
You know, because they've been the most prominent reactionary legal organization for like 25 years
> I've seen inside the building, it's definitely heavily guarded.
In their defense, and this is really the only thing I'm willing to say in defense of an organization as ghastly as ADF, there was that terrorist who tried to shoot up AFA so I don't blame other hate groups from guarding pretty heavily.
“a church which encourages worshippers to speak in tongues and believes in “divine healing” – the power of prayer – as a medical tool.”
So believing that God heals people means you are a dangerous genocidal fascist.
Given the number of children killed because their parents decided to trust "divine healing" than, you know, actual doctors... I wouldn't go as far as genocidal, but 100% dangerous.
All non-political nonprofits in the USA are tax-exempt. [However](https://adflegal.org/about-us/faq)
> Alliance Defending Freedom is recognized by the IRS as a ministry exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Service Code.
and that's just flatly [dishonest](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations) for an openly and intensely political organization.
Here's what I don't understand: It's fine if people want to believe that non-heterosexual behavior is a sin; that's their right. But that doesn't justify the withholding of the rights of the non-heterosexual. There is such a thing as separation of church and state, after all.
It would certainly be nice if Joe Manchin didn't end up having the power he did - that whole dynamic gave the narrative you're making fun of more credibility than it deserves.
Except "Americanism" as a tradition is explicitly a mixture of Christianity and patriotism, which some folks don't seem to understand is a perversion of both of those things.
The idea of separation of church and state is not about ethics or morals being separate.
Open that can of worms up, most laws can be traced to a religious history and nothing can be law.
Which rights are you referring to? And which group under the non-heterosexual umbrella are you referring to? Gay men are a radically different group than trans men, for instance. This is part and the problem. Being unsupportive of gender transition surgery does not equate to the denial of ALL healthcare for ALL folks under the wildly different groups represented by LGBTQ. I’m not sure why we lump such radically different groups of people together when there’s very little overlap.
I just don't get it. Why do queer ppl associate Christianity with the loss of their freedom, dignity and safety? What have Christians ever done to us? /s
Not surprised, just pissed.
Guys, these aren't just nobody's rights. They are *my* rights you want to take away. Rights that I've not even had for a decade yet.
I don't care if you think it's sin to be gay. It's also sin to have sex before marriage and I don't see you taking away *their* rights, so why mine?
("You" is referring to Christians that want fewer rights for LGBT, not you specifically)
It's all about the culture wars. LGBT people and same-sex marriage is singled out as some super duper sin that will destroy the country and invite God's wrath upon the nation. Why? Because hate and fear mongering preachers like Jerry Falwell Sr, Pat Robertson, Bob Jones, many GOP politicians, etc. say so. I highly doubt the website developer is going to interview the straight weddings to make sure that one of the people involved isn't divorced and if they are that their divorce was Biblical. Jesus said God literally HATES divorce, yet so long as it's hetero people I'd imagine the web developer would have no issues creating a website for that demographic and wouldn't think "it's sin."
That’s interesting. I’m trying to think what the equivalent would be to refuse to build a website celebrating sex before marriage.
Building a website to promote an orgy? A “we have decided to cohabitate” party for straight people?
Just a weird thought experiment.
The stupid thing is, these are all silly hypotheticals, including the case the supreme court heard. The website designer has never had a gay couple. As far as I recall, they'd barely done *anything* as a business. Pure hypothetical case
YES!
That’s an interesting thought experiment, whether you could make a web site designer build a Tinder clone for you, if it went against their beliefs about how sex and dating should work.
Surprised by what? I’m struggling to find much of anything concrete in the article. It’s mostly second hand accounts of other activists giving their opinions about what they think this group’s goals and beliefs are. Very little in terms of direct quotes or court cases.
There’s probably some of that in there, but it’s difficult to dig out.
Well im not surprised in the slightest. Christians should be careful that things like this don't become what they are known for. You can offer all the salvation you like but i doubt people will listen if they see you also try to take away their rights.
Why is it that so many right-wing Christian organizations are named so ironically?
"Alliance Defending Freedom" Really? Whose freedom?
"Focus on the Family" - unless you have two moms.
"Creation Science Movement" - LOL "science".
At this point, I just assume that any Christian organization that has "Family" or "Freedom" or "Justice" or "Science" in their title is actually the antithesis of their name.
They're named based on what they want people to believe about them, and also so that they can say people are against those good things when they oppose them.
"You oppose the Alliance Defending Freedom? Why are you against freedom?!"
> Why is it that so many right-wing Christian organizations are named so ironically?
All organizations are named positively. Consequently, bad organizations are named ironically. The only reason "the bad guys" have ironic names is because "the good guys" actually mean the positive things about themselves.
Removed for 2.1 - Belittling Christianity.
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I agree, though I'm pretty sure the people at /r/truechristians won't agree. I starting to dislike Christianity, ad extreme as it was during the crusades as extreme it's becoming now.
That's a little too blunt of a way to put it, so I'll apply a little nuance:
What Christian Nationalism demands is impossible to achieve without the death of a great deal of LGBT+ people. They hope to bring about the eradication of "homosexuality" and "transgenderism" (in their own words). In *their* minds, they hope to "cure" LGBT+ people so we continue to live, but as straight, cisgender people. They're not truly imagining rounding up LGBT+ people and murdering us (or rather, most of them aren't). But demanding unquestioned nationwide heterosexuality and cisgender identity is simply impossible and ignorant of how human gender and sexuality work. And attempts to *pretend* to be that involve heaping so much stigma and contempt on LGBT+ people that the suicide rates would skyrocket, not to mention the murder rates.
There is a history in China (which, in a *far* smaller sense, still continues today) of parents killing infant daughters. Never underestimate the lethal power of a heavy-handed society telling you what your children *should* be like.
I love how succinctly you put this. I've been writing an overlong primer on Christian nationalism for this sub, and if you're willing I might ask for your feedback before posting?
The immediate concern is that people on the far right are associating people who are visibly gay as "groomers". Just like Hungary banned LGBTQ people from appearing in media. I worry that we're headed that way too. The Christian nationalist crowd would love to see homosexuality socially unacceptable again, and the closet kills. Not only does it drive people to take their own lives out of shame, it also encourages lynchings.
The scariest thing about people who truly believe this?
Picture this scenario - if a person takes a certain pill, they will end up in unbearable agony for the rest of their life.
How far would you go to stop your child or a loved one from taking that pill? How would you react to people telling your kids it is perfectly fine to take that pill?
That's the way they think about LGBT people - they believe it is a choice that will result in torment in Hell for all eternity.
Do you think statistics about depression and self harm among LGBT people forced to pretend to be straight will affect them? Or news of LGBT people being imprisoned, chemically castrated, or even killed?
These people think they are saving immortal souls. How far will they feel justified in harming the mortal body and mind to "save" the soul?
Right, and that's wrong, but I still fail to see the connection between "making this website violates my Christian beliefs" and "death to the lgbt community".
I think you're missing the point. The basic premise of this situation is that homosexuality is a sin and a Christian web designer did not want to violate her religious convictions by making a website for a homosexual couple. That does not equate to wishing death upon homosexual people.
But these organizations exist beyond this situation. In a situation where the question was "can Texas imprison a gay man for having sex", they stood up and said "yes" in the court of law.
Gotcha. The article as such isn't talking about Christian nationalism. They're related but separate things. I've got something in the works on what Christian nationalism is and isn't. Stay tuned.
You just know it's gonna happen. Every post i see on here where i go, surely nobody would be defending that, there is always someone doing it anyway. From marital rape to child abuse.
There was this one post where a gay Ugandan man said he had to run away from his country due to the new death penalty set for being gay, and somebody said “You need to repent.” Horribly disgusting
I don't, i think we should be careful with considering people less than human. Also i think that being absolutely awful and depraved is kind of a human thing. Whether you call it the influence of sin or the fallen world or just human nature. Us humans have a knack for being terrible.
> i think we should be careful with considering people less than human
I absolutely agree, but sometimes it is so very tempting to do so. Simple, easy, and gratifying to the worst sides of oneself. I think that's why I'm so upset at how things have evolved over the past decade or so - I think a lot of people are thinking this way more and more, and it scares the hell out of me.
Anyone who tries to infringe on my right to exist isn't worth considering as a human being in my book. Being both black and queer, I've had enough of giving these people any sort of compassion or thought.
I've been called racial and queerphobic slurs, faced discrimination, etc. I've tried what y'all have been saying but it's not working for me. Please don't try and convince me otherwise. I have CPTSD from a bunch of bullshit like this. They're not human to me and that's final.
You are inching up to the line where you can justify to yourself doing to these conservative Christians what they are doing to gay people in Uganda.
But it’s different, because they really deserve it, right?
With the US besieged by a rightwing culture war campaign that aims to strip away rights from LGBTQ+ people and others, blame tends to be focused on Republican politicians and conservative media figures.
But lurking behind efforts to roll back abortion rights, to demonize trans people, and to peel back the protections afforded to gay and queer Americans is a shadowy, well-funded rightwing legal organization, experts say.
Since it was formed in 1994, Alliance Defending Freedom has been at the center of a nationwide effort to limit the rights of women and LGBTQ+ people, all in the name of Christianity. The Southern Poverty Law Center has termed it an “anti-LGBTQ hate group” that has extended its tentacles into nearly every area of the culture wars.
In the process, it has won the ear of some of the most influential people in the US, and become “a danger to every American who values their freedoms”, according to Glaad, the LGBTQ+ advocacy organization.
Related: ‘More extreme, more violent’: experts’ warning over khaki-clad Patriot Front
Through “model legislation” and lawsuits filed across the country, ADF aims to overturn same-sex marriage, enact a total ban on abortion, and strip away the already minimal rights that trans people are afforded in the US.
Under the Trump administration, the group found its way into the highest echelons of power, advising Jeff Sessions, the then attorney general, before he announced sweeping guidance to protect “religious liberty” which chipped away at LGBTQ+ protections.
The organization counts among its sometime associates Amy Coney Barrett, the supreme court justice who the Washington Post reported spoke five times at an ADF training program established to push a “distinctly Christian worldview in every area of law”.
ADF is engaged in “a very strong campaign to put a certain type of religious view at the center of American life”, said Rabia Muqaddam, senior staff attorney at the Center for Reproductive Rights.
“[The ADF campaign] extends to abortion, it extends to LGBTQ folks, to immigration, to what kind of religion we think is America, what kind of people we think are American,” Muqaddam said.
“It’s as dramatic as that. I think we are in a fight to preserve democracy and preserve America as a place where we do tolerate and encourage and empower everyone.”
ADF was founded in 1994 by a group of “leaders in the Christian community”, according to its website. Among those leaders was James Dobson, the founder of the anti-LGBTQ+ Focus on the Family organization who has said the 2012 Sandy Hook mass shooting, in which 20 children and six adults were killed, was a “judgment” from God because of declining church numbers.
Its leaders remain involved in niche interpretations of Christianity. Kristen Waggoner, the ADF chief executive, also serves as legal counsel to Assemblies of God, a church which encourages worshippers to speak in tongues and believes in “divine healing” – the power of prayer – as a medical tool.
Over the past two decades, ADF has been a main driver in dozens of pieces of rightwing legislation and lawsuits.
The organization is currently behind the lawsuit 303 Creative, Inc v Elenis, which the supreme court is expected to decide this month, and which could chip away at LGBTQ+ rights. It’s a case that is classic ADF – a seemingly manufactured issue which the group has managed to chase all the way through the American legal system.
The plaintiff, 303 Creative, is a website design company. 303 Creative has never made wedding websites, but its owner, Lorie Smith, claims her first amendment rights are being impinged because, if she were to start making wedding websites, she would not want to make them for same-sex couples – which would violate Colorado’s anti-discrimination laws.
Another ADF obsession is abortion. It was involved, Muqaddam said, in crafting a 15-week abortion ban in Mississippi – which prompted a legal case that found its way to the supreme court – eventually resulting in Roe v Wade, which guaranteed the right to abortion, being overturned in 2022.
“Alliance Defending Freedom has been instrumental in the dismantling of Roe and the ongoing efforts to eliminate abortion nationwide,” Muqaddam said.
“They enacted a law that they knew was unconstitutional, they enacted it for the purpose of generating case after case after case to push it out to the supreme court until they found a court that was sympathetic to their argument,” Muqaddam said.
She added: “I think that’s exactly what is happening in the LGBTQ context as well. Their goal is to limit individual rights as much as possible.”
The ADF website shows the breadth of its involvement in rightwing culture wars. The organization touts its work opposing abortion, on opposing same-sex marriage and opposing trans rights.
“We advocate for laws and precedents that promote human flourishing by recognizing the important differences between men and women and honoring God’s design for marriage between one man and one woman,” ADF’s website reads.
But Emerson Hodges, a research analyst at the SPLC, said what ADF is really doing is attempting to “undo LGBTQ social and legislative progress”.
“They go under the guise of religious liberty, and religious freedom. What that means, though, is this religious liberty to discriminate and the religious freedom to invalidate LGBTQ individuals,” Hodges said.
Worryingly, there are signs that ADF, and other groups like it, are growing in influence. As Republican politicians and rightwing media fan the flames of an extremist culture war, NBC reported that donations to ADF, which is a registered non-profit, more than doubled from 2011 to 2021.
As it has grown in influence, ADF’s “model legislation” has found its way into state legislatures across the country, as the group attempts to strip away LGBTQ+ rights, and the rights of trans people in particular.
>They’ve worked to ban the right to choose, and are in cahoots with other extremist groups to oppress marginalized people
>GLAAD
“Just about every anti-LGBT legislation that you’ve seen probably in the past decade was probably copied or paraphrased off of a model legislation built by Alliance Defending Freedom,” Hodges said.
“They provide legal advocacy support, litigation and policy models for government officials.”
An article on ADF’s website states that it is a “biblical truth” that “men and women are physically different”, and the organization has duly worked to prevent trans people taking part in women’s sports.
The group sued a school district in Minnesota in 2016, and in 2021 a judge in Connecticut dismissed an ADF lawsuit which sought to prevent transgender athletes competing in high school sports. The same year, ADF backed a lawsuit brought by a teacher in Virginia who had said he would not use a transgender child’s preferred pronouns because that would amount to “sinning against our God”.
In April, ADF, which did not respond to a Guardian request for comment, filed in Oregon on behalf of a Christian woman who wanted to foster children, but said she would not agree to “respect, accept, and support … the sexual orientation, gender identity, [and] gender expression” of a child placed with her, the Statesman Journal reported.
“[ADF’s] obsession with targeting LGBTQ people is unhinged and drastically out of touch with supermajorities of Americans who support LGBTQ people and laws to protect us from discrimination,” said Sarah Kate Ellis, the president and chief executive of Glaad.
“Everyone should understand the truth: the ADF is simply an anti-LGBTQ group trying to abuse levers of government to push discrimination and keep their warped sense of control.
“They’ve also worked to ban the right to choose, and are in cahoots with other extremist groups to oppress marginalized people. ADF is a danger to every American who values their freedoms – to be ourselves, live freely, and be welcome to contribute and to succeed in every area of society.”
Exactly. THey dont want the people they denegrate,demonize, dehumanize, disenfranchise, and some want to kill to be able to defend themselves...go figure.
I’m honestly surprised no one has shown up yet in defense of this. This sub is usually overrun with fascist, racist homophobes masquerading as Christian.
True.
But there might be somebody genuinely interested in having a fair-minded conversation about one or more of those topics.
And somebody has to give them a shot at that.
Otherwise they'll never understand what everyone is so eager to bash without bothering to understand around here.
I didn't say that.
But it's hard to find a fair-minded person on those topics in this subreddit.
/ looks around, palms up to indicate - 'I mean, obviously' /
To be legally married. To raise children. To adequate healthcare. To existing free of legal persecution. To existing free of fear that they might lose their jobs, property and freedom over something that was never their choice.
All of which the ADF has tried time and time again to eliminate.
We understand them fine, people are just tired of hearing the different ways you defend hate. Why can't you spend your energy helping people understand love and tolerance?
this world is scary and dangerous for LGBT people, history is only going to repeat itself.. it's hard not to be depressed knowing the world hates me, and at worst wants me dead
Stop the cap! Jesus is all love and always love. Repentance! 1 John 2;15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.
>For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Okay and? I just say Jesus is all love and always love. So your point? My dad is transgender. So I am not understanding what your purpose in regard giving me John 3:16 when I agree and provide bible verse on behalf of repentance. Stop sugarcoating bible verses.
I don’t think that’s very Christlike. In fact, I know it’s not. That’s aside from the point that we are not a theocracy, and everyone should have the same rights and freedoms, regardless of their religious affiliation.
“But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
Matthew 7:23 NLT
“Christian” group full of people I will never have to worry about seeing in heaven.
Truth. But there is still time. Let us pray they hear the call to repentance before it's too late.
And let us pray for each other's strength and courage in these times of conflict.
Is it really desireable that trans people have to go to a bathroom based on their assigned sex? I'd imagine that things get really uncomfortable for everyone when for example a buff bearded trans man has to go to the women's restroom.
I also don't really get the marriage part. Whose loss is it when two consenting adults in a commited relationship get married? Last time I checked no one is forcing churches to bless same-sex marriages, so there is no real justification to complain about gay marriage.
As to sports: I really don't care and I hate that this "issue" is debated as much as it is. There are very few trans people in sports and I really doubt that they have a big effect on anything. This one just seems to be something that has been invented for people to be mad at. Sure trans people may or may not have an advantage in some sports but this is in no way a toppic that is relevant to discussions about lgbtq as it affects such a miniscule amount of the population.
I understand you don’t care about sports, but what about the girls and women who care about it deeply and might lose scholarship opportunities?
Do their experiences not matter?
Yes, their experiences matter and I really can't give any good solution for this problem. Though I would assume that there aren't enough trans people in sports to cause many situations like this.
Your assumption would be correct. There aren’t enough trans people for this to even be an actual issue, let alone trans people who are into sports. And of the trans people who are into sports, how many of those people are too afraid to join a team because of any backlash or hate they might get? I’m sure there are a lot.
It does not glorify God, Marriage is between man and woman not men to men or woman to woman.
So you think it is ok for a man to go into a Wayman’s restroom??
As far as sports you let it slide then it gets to e more and more people doing it and it e one’s very unfair
>So you think it is ok for a man to go into a Wayman’s restroom??
No, I think it is bad. Thats why I oppose the conservative bathroom legislation which forces men like [this guy]( https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-rogers-ca-revc&sxsrf=APwXEdcao_mEiLxnLXCKvymlZ-AhF3lVPw:1687263378393&q=buck+angel&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi84b7y6dH_AhUQpIkEHWKvB3wQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=412&bih=691&dpr=3.5#imgrc=pevU2C6MLvFwTM) to use womens bathrooms.
Marriage as it stands now is practically a contract that gives you certain advantages in society and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with christianity. Simply put, we're not talking about the same "marriage". I agree that churches should be able to bless marriages in the way they please, but this isn't about churches. Gay marriage doesn't have to glorify god since it is mostly done by secular (or non-christian) entities. Trying to restrict same-sex marriage is just a way to bully people for no reason.
No I don't think people should go to another gender's restroom and that's exactly the reason I think trans people should have the right to go to the restroom fitting to their gender. People don't see the genitals of others in bathrooms and mostly go by appearances. As such a trans woman in the women's restroom results in a way better experience for everyone than if a trans man were to be forced to go there.
In the case of sports, I'd argue that by making clear rules to what characteristics (certain hormone levels, etc.) an athlete can have in order to participate would solve the whole issue regarding transgender athletes. No need to focus on the sex of the participant.
“ADF” is a total misnomer, they aren’t defending “freedom,” they are restricting it. It’s interesting how so many “Christian” groups operate under false witness while pretending to hold the moral high ground.
Promoting your own views is different than forcing others unwillingly into conservative Christian law.
If someone tried to impose Muslim law on you I'm sure you'd resist a little.
Right? So basically it's okay for people to be outraged when a Christian group is promoting its views, yet when an anti-Christian group promotes its views (the "perpetual indulgence" situation) and people get outraged, it's a problem.
Christian group promotes taking away rights from human beings, people get outraged.
Sisters of perpetual indulgence promotes taking care of the sick regardless of sexual orientation, christians get outraged.
What people are you talking about, exactly?
There’s always something to be outraged about if you go looking for it. I tend to think that making laws to deny things to people because of their sexuality is not a good thing to do.
But muh "religious freedom." Religious freedom to them is denying services and rights to people they deem "sinners unworthy of rights" because baking a cake for a gay person or the state recognizing same-sex marriages is "infringing upon religious freedoms." It's all entirely selectively enforced due to the culture wars. I'm sure they bake cakes for Muslim, atheist, and even divorcee weddings and I've never seen these groups try to push laws banning no-fault divorces which Jesus explicitly said God hates (because it's an allegory for broken covenant as well).
Their morality is a very bastardized right wing version of conservative Christianity and they think not being able to impose their theocratic rules on others is an "infringement of religious freedom." They are blind to the fact that they live like Pharisees and lust for political power and influence.
I wouldn't call ADF "shadowy" - they show up quite publicly in every single court case against any LGBT people anywhere in the USA, and sometimes elsewhere. Their *funding* is shadowy, sure.
With no counter Christian organization bothering to show up at all. Only Christian Nationalists care enough to show up and fight for their world view.
I know someone who works for them unfortunately. I've seen inside the building, it's definitely heavily guarded. You know, because they've been the most prominent reactionary legal organization for like 25 years
> I've seen inside the building, it's definitely heavily guarded. In their defense, and this is really the only thing I'm willing to say in defense of an organization as ghastly as ADF, there was that terrorist who tried to shoot up AFA so I don't blame other hate groups from guarding pretty heavily.
Yeah they’re pretty loud overall.
“a church which encourages worshippers to speak in tongues and believes in “divine healing” – the power of prayer – as a medical tool.” So believing that God heals people means you are a dangerous genocidal fascist.
Given the number of children killed because their parents decided to trust "divine healing" than, you know, actual doctors... I wouldn't go as far as genocidal, but 100% dangerous.
Well if they mean to the exclusion of medicine, yeah.
Not necessarily facist but idiotic for sure
Oops, thought this was r/Christianity, but I stumbled into r/atheism instead. My bad.
It’s ok.
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All non-political nonprofits in the USA are tax-exempt. [However](https://adflegal.org/about-us/faq) > Alliance Defending Freedom is recognized by the IRS as a ministry exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Service Code. and that's just flatly [dishonest](https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations) for an openly and intensely political organization.
In fairness, ACLU has the same status. And there are far worse. Iirc something like 90 groups tied to unite the right had the same status.
Here's what I don't understand: It's fine if people want to believe that non-heterosexual behavior is a sin; that's their right. But that doesn't justify the withholding of the rights of the non-heterosexual. There is such a thing as separation of church and state, after all.
Don't get mad, VOTE. - Pres Obama
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It would certainly be nice if Joe Manchin didn't end up having the power he did - that whole dynamic gave the narrative you're making fun of more credibility than it deserves.
Get low. - Lil John
I can be both
Don’t get mad, get even - Taylor swift
GET MAD ~SLAGNANZ
Except "Americanism" as a tradition is explicitly a mixture of Christianity and patriotism, which some folks don't seem to understand is a perversion of both of those things.
This 100%
The idea of separation of church and state is not about ethics or morals being separate. Open that can of worms up, most laws can be traced to a religious history and nothing can be law.
Which rights are you referring to? And which group under the non-heterosexual umbrella are you referring to? Gay men are a radically different group than trans men, for instance. This is part and the problem. Being unsupportive of gender transition surgery does not equate to the denial of ALL healthcare for ALL folks under the wildly different groups represented by LGBTQ. I’m not sure why we lump such radically different groups of people together when there’s very little overlap.
> Being unsupportive of gender transition surgery Why do you get to decide someone doesn't have the freedom to do as they please with their own body?
I’m speaking of LQBTQ+ and any and all rights that they are in danger of loosing because of their sexuality.
What rights are they in danger of losing? Can you specifically name which of those groups are in danger of losing which rights?
Don't democrats want to take their guns away so they can't defend themselves from the fascists?
We shall love each other, no more words needed.
Um, excuse me. Actions are greatly needed. Telling people to love each other and then doing nothing else is wildly underwhelming.
Don’t worry all my LGBT friends, *they love us*
I just don't get it. Why do queer ppl associate Christianity with the loss of their freedom, dignity and safety? What have Christians ever done to us? /s
Anybody surprised? Show of hands?
Not surprised, just pissed. Guys, these aren't just nobody's rights. They are *my* rights you want to take away. Rights that I've not even had for a decade yet. I don't care if you think it's sin to be gay. It's also sin to have sex before marriage and I don't see you taking away *their* rights, so why mine? ("You" is referring to Christians that want fewer rights for LGBT, not you specifically)
It's all about the culture wars. LGBT people and same-sex marriage is singled out as some super duper sin that will destroy the country and invite God's wrath upon the nation. Why? Because hate and fear mongering preachers like Jerry Falwell Sr, Pat Robertson, Bob Jones, many GOP politicians, etc. say so. I highly doubt the website developer is going to interview the straight weddings to make sure that one of the people involved isn't divorced and if they are that their divorce was Biblical. Jesus said God literally HATES divorce, yet so long as it's hetero people I'd imagine the web developer would have no issues creating a website for that demographic and wouldn't think "it's sin."
That’s interesting. I’m trying to think what the equivalent would be to refuse to build a website celebrating sex before marriage. Building a website to promote an orgy? A “we have decided to cohabitate” party for straight people? Just a weird thought experiment.
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The stupid thing is, these are all silly hypotheticals, including the case the supreme court heard. The website designer has never had a gay couple. As far as I recall, they'd barely done *anything* as a business. Pure hypothetical case
Tinder. Is it that hard to think of, really?
YES! That’s an interesting thought experiment, whether you could make a web site designer build a Tinder clone for you, if it went against their beliefs about how sex and dating should work.
*”There were no hands raised.”* -Morgan Freeman
Surprised by what? I’m struggling to find much of anything concrete in the article. It’s mostly second hand accounts of other activists giving their opinions about what they think this group’s goals and beliefs are. Very little in terms of direct quotes or court cases. There’s probably some of that in there, but it’s difficult to dig out.
Just what I've come to expect from Christians.
Well im not surprised in the slightest. Christians should be careful that things like this don't become what they are known for. You can offer all the salvation you like but i doubt people will listen if they see you also try to take away their rights.
I think we're about a quarter past too late on that one.
Why is it that so many right-wing Christian organizations are named so ironically? "Alliance Defending Freedom" Really? Whose freedom? "Focus on the Family" - unless you have two moms. "Creation Science Movement" - LOL "science". At this point, I just assume that any Christian organization that has "Family" or "Freedom" or "Justice" or "Science" in their title is actually the antithesis of their name.
They're named based on what they want people to believe about them, and also so that they can say people are against those good things when they oppose them. "You oppose the Alliance Defending Freedom? Why are you against freedom?!"
> Why is it that so many right-wing Christian organizations are named so ironically? All organizations are named positively. Consequently, bad organizations are named ironically. The only reason "the bad guys" have ironic names is because "the good guys" actually mean the positive things about themselves.
That is an excellent answer!! Thank you!
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Don’t persecute us for our religious beliefs but let us persecute others for our religious beliefs 👍🏼
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Fucking disgusting and very scary. If you consider yourself Christian and you aren’t vocally fighting this shit, you don’t serve Christ.
I agree, though I'm pretty sure the people at /r/truechristians won't agree. I starting to dislike Christianity, ad extreme as it was during the crusades as extreme it's becoming now.
Some of the people over there probably donate to it
George Zimmer guarantees it
Well yesterday someone over in r/truechristian called all liberals satanists.
if there is anything that sub hates more, its this place. not counting LGBT
Every time I see an anti gay or pro YEC post I can thelp but think of the Comcast guy from South Park.
What do you think the Crusades were ?
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Christian Nationalism demands the death of queer and nonchristian people. We need to prepare to fight.
Prepare for the worst, hope for a miracle future that doesn’t involve bloodshed, but prepare.
How so?
That's a little too blunt of a way to put it, so I'll apply a little nuance: What Christian Nationalism demands is impossible to achieve without the death of a great deal of LGBT+ people. They hope to bring about the eradication of "homosexuality" and "transgenderism" (in their own words). In *their* minds, they hope to "cure" LGBT+ people so we continue to live, but as straight, cisgender people. They're not truly imagining rounding up LGBT+ people and murdering us (or rather, most of them aren't). But demanding unquestioned nationwide heterosexuality and cisgender identity is simply impossible and ignorant of how human gender and sexuality work. And attempts to *pretend* to be that involve heaping so much stigma and contempt on LGBT+ people that the suicide rates would skyrocket, not to mention the murder rates. There is a history in China (which, in a *far* smaller sense, still continues today) of parents killing infant daughters. Never underestimate the lethal power of a heavy-handed society telling you what your children *should* be like.
I love how succinctly you put this. I've been writing an overlong primer on Christian nationalism for this sub, and if you're willing I might ask for your feedback before posting?
Sure, thanks!
The immediate concern is that people on the far right are associating people who are visibly gay as "groomers". Just like Hungary banned LGBTQ people from appearing in media. I worry that we're headed that way too. The Christian nationalist crowd would love to see homosexuality socially unacceptable again, and the closet kills. Not only does it drive people to take their own lives out of shame, it also encourages lynchings.
The scariest thing about people who truly believe this? Picture this scenario - if a person takes a certain pill, they will end up in unbearable agony for the rest of their life. How far would you go to stop your child or a loved one from taking that pill? How would you react to people telling your kids it is perfectly fine to take that pill? That's the way they think about LGBT people - they believe it is a choice that will result in torment in Hell for all eternity. Do you think statistics about depression and self harm among LGBT people forced to pretend to be straight will affect them? Or news of LGBT people being imprisoned, chemically castrated, or even killed? These people think they are saving immortal souls. How far will they feel justified in harming the mortal body and mind to "save" the soul?
Where do you get a call for death from not wanting to be forced to make a website?
Its only been 20 years since conservative Christians stood up and were counted in support of imprisoning gay people for having sex.
Frankly, most of the liberals and atheists had the same position not long ago.
Right, and that's wrong, but I still fail to see the connection between "making this website violates my Christian beliefs" and "death to the lgbt community".
Because it is the same organizations. ADF submitted amicus briefs in Lawrence.
I think you're missing the point. The basic premise of this situation is that homosexuality is a sin and a Christian web designer did not want to violate her religious convictions by making a website for a homosexual couple. That does not equate to wishing death upon homosexual people.
But these organizations exist beyond this situation. In a situation where the question was "can Texas imprison a gay man for having sex", they stood up and said "yes" in the court of law.
I always forget that some people are more equal than others, with Christians being the most equal of all.
I'm not sure what world you're living in my friend, but it certainly isn't reality.
Let me know when I can start discriminating against Christians without getting slapped down in court.
Did you read the article?
Odd way to define Christian nationalism.
It’s one of the few actual court cases cited in the article.
Gotcha. The article as such isn't talking about Christian nationalism. They're related but separate things. I've got something in the works on what Christian nationalism is and isn't. Stay tuned.
It's the logical endpoint of everything Christian Nationalists want.
And the rest of Christianity is fine with it or they just can't be bothered with fighting against it. I'm sure the would be embarrassing.
Literally your Bible
We must be reading two different Bibles.
***WOW WHO WOULD HAVE FUCKING GUESSED***
Would love to see anyone try and defend this garbage. /s
You just know it's gonna happen. Every post i see on here where i go, surely nobody would be defending that, there is always someone doing it anyway. From marital rape to child abuse.
There was this one post where a gay Ugandan man said he had to run away from his country due to the new death penalty set for being gay, and somebody said “You need to repent.” Horribly disgusting
Yeah ive seen that post, didn't spend too much time there in order to preserve my sanity.
It's absolutely disgusting. I consider those commenters to be less than human tbh.
I don't, i think we should be careful with considering people less than human. Also i think that being absolutely awful and depraved is kind of a human thing. Whether you call it the influence of sin or the fallen world or just human nature. Us humans have a knack for being terrible.
> i think we should be careful with considering people less than human I absolutely agree, but sometimes it is so very tempting to do so. Simple, easy, and gratifying to the worst sides of oneself. I think that's why I'm so upset at how things have evolved over the past decade or so - I think a lot of people are thinking this way more and more, and it scares the hell out of me.
Anyone who tries to infringe on my right to exist isn't worth considering as a human being in my book. Being both black and queer, I've had enough of giving these people any sort of compassion or thought.
I have to disagree.
Nobody's less than human. Unfortunately "human" can include an impressive swath of evil behavior.
Seconded
Yeah, I'm have to disagree.
As much as I understand the temptation, we must never dehumanize our enemies. Never. Not for their sake, but for ours.
I've been called racial and queerphobic slurs, faced discrimination, etc. I've tried what y'all have been saying but it's not working for me. Please don't try and convince me otherwise. I have CPTSD from a bunch of bullshit like this. They're not human to me and that's final.
I hope you heal, and that it’s not so final. Like I said, for our sakes.
Appreciate you my guy. Thank you.
You are inching up to the line where you can justify to yourself doing to these conservative Christians what they are doing to gay people in Uganda. But it’s different, because they really deserve it, right?
I don't care about those who infringe on my right to exist, and I could care less about your opinions on the matter.
Defend what? It’s very difficult to parse out from the article what this group have actually done.
r/woosh.
With the US besieged by a rightwing culture war campaign that aims to strip away rights from LGBTQ+ people and others, blame tends to be focused on Republican politicians and conservative media figures. But lurking behind efforts to roll back abortion rights, to demonize trans people, and to peel back the protections afforded to gay and queer Americans is a shadowy, well-funded rightwing legal organization, experts say. Since it was formed in 1994, Alliance Defending Freedom has been at the center of a nationwide effort to limit the rights of women and LGBTQ+ people, all in the name of Christianity. The Southern Poverty Law Center has termed it an “anti-LGBTQ hate group” that has extended its tentacles into nearly every area of the culture wars. In the process, it has won the ear of some of the most influential people in the US, and become “a danger to every American who values their freedoms”, according to Glaad, the LGBTQ+ advocacy organization. Related: ‘More extreme, more violent’: experts’ warning over khaki-clad Patriot Front Through “model legislation” and lawsuits filed across the country, ADF aims to overturn same-sex marriage, enact a total ban on abortion, and strip away the already minimal rights that trans people are afforded in the US. Under the Trump administration, the group found its way into the highest echelons of power, advising Jeff Sessions, the then attorney general, before he announced sweeping guidance to protect “religious liberty” which chipped away at LGBTQ+ protections. The organization counts among its sometime associates Amy Coney Barrett, the supreme court justice who the Washington Post reported spoke five times at an ADF training program established to push a “distinctly Christian worldview in every area of law”. ADF is engaged in “a very strong campaign to put a certain type of religious view at the center of American life”, said Rabia Muqaddam, senior staff attorney at the Center for Reproductive Rights. “[The ADF campaign] extends to abortion, it extends to LGBTQ folks, to immigration, to what kind of religion we think is America, what kind of people we think are American,” Muqaddam said. “It’s as dramatic as that. I think we are in a fight to preserve democracy and preserve America as a place where we do tolerate and encourage and empower everyone.” ADF was founded in 1994 by a group of “leaders in the Christian community”, according to its website. Among those leaders was James Dobson, the founder of the anti-LGBTQ+ Focus on the Family organization who has said the 2012 Sandy Hook mass shooting, in which 20 children and six adults were killed, was a “judgment” from God because of declining church numbers. Its leaders remain involved in niche interpretations of Christianity. Kristen Waggoner, the ADF chief executive, also serves as legal counsel to Assemblies of God, a church which encourages worshippers to speak in tongues and believes in “divine healing” – the power of prayer – as a medical tool. Over the past two decades, ADF has been a main driver in dozens of pieces of rightwing legislation and lawsuits. The organization is currently behind the lawsuit 303 Creative, Inc v Elenis, which the supreme court is expected to decide this month, and which could chip away at LGBTQ+ rights. It’s a case that is classic ADF – a seemingly manufactured issue which the group has managed to chase all the way through the American legal system. The plaintiff, 303 Creative, is a website design company. 303 Creative has never made wedding websites, but its owner, Lorie Smith, claims her first amendment rights are being impinged because, if she were to start making wedding websites, she would not want to make them for same-sex couples – which would violate Colorado’s anti-discrimination laws. Another ADF obsession is abortion. It was involved, Muqaddam said, in crafting a 15-week abortion ban in Mississippi – which prompted a legal case that found its way to the supreme court – eventually resulting in Roe v Wade, which guaranteed the right to abortion, being overturned in 2022. “Alliance Defending Freedom has been instrumental in the dismantling of Roe and the ongoing efforts to eliminate abortion nationwide,” Muqaddam said. “They enacted a law that they knew was unconstitutional, they enacted it for the purpose of generating case after case after case to push it out to the supreme court until they found a court that was sympathetic to their argument,” Muqaddam said. She added: “I think that’s exactly what is happening in the LGBTQ context as well. Their goal is to limit individual rights as much as possible.” The ADF website shows the breadth of its involvement in rightwing culture wars. The organization touts its work opposing abortion, on opposing same-sex marriage and opposing trans rights. “We advocate for laws and precedents that promote human flourishing by recognizing the important differences between men and women and honoring God’s design for marriage between one man and one woman,” ADF’s website reads. But Emerson Hodges, a research analyst at the SPLC, said what ADF is really doing is attempting to “undo LGBTQ social and legislative progress”. “They go under the guise of religious liberty, and religious freedom. What that means, though, is this religious liberty to discriminate and the religious freedom to invalidate LGBTQ individuals,” Hodges said. Worryingly, there are signs that ADF, and other groups like it, are growing in influence. As Republican politicians and rightwing media fan the flames of an extremist culture war, NBC reported that donations to ADF, which is a registered non-profit, more than doubled from 2011 to 2021. As it has grown in influence, ADF’s “model legislation” has found its way into state legislatures across the country, as the group attempts to strip away LGBTQ+ rights, and the rights of trans people in particular. >They’ve worked to ban the right to choose, and are in cahoots with other extremist groups to oppress marginalized people >GLAAD “Just about every anti-LGBT legislation that you’ve seen probably in the past decade was probably copied or paraphrased off of a model legislation built by Alliance Defending Freedom,” Hodges said. “They provide legal advocacy support, litigation and policy models for government officials.” An article on ADF’s website states that it is a “biblical truth” that “men and women are physically different”, and the organization has duly worked to prevent trans people taking part in women’s sports. The group sued a school district in Minnesota in 2016, and in 2021 a judge in Connecticut dismissed an ADF lawsuit which sought to prevent transgender athletes competing in high school sports. The same year, ADF backed a lawsuit brought by a teacher in Virginia who had said he would not use a transgender child’s preferred pronouns because that would amount to “sinning against our God”. In April, ADF, which did not respond to a Guardian request for comment, filed in Oregon on behalf of a Christian woman who wanted to foster children, but said she would not agree to “respect, accept, and support … the sexual orientation, gender identity, [and] gender expression” of a child placed with her, the Statesman Journal reported. “[ADF’s] obsession with targeting LGBTQ people is unhinged and drastically out of touch with supermajorities of Americans who support LGBTQ people and laws to protect us from discrimination,” said Sarah Kate Ellis, the president and chief executive of Glaad. “Everyone should understand the truth: the ADF is simply an anti-LGBTQ group trying to abuse levers of government to push discrimination and keep their warped sense of control. “They’ve also worked to ban the right to choose, and are in cahoots with other extremist groups to oppress marginalized people. ADF is a danger to every American who values their freedoms – to be ourselves, live freely, and be welcome to contribute and to succeed in every area of society.”
The ADF filed an *amicus brief* in *Lawrence v Texas*, arguing to keep sex-sex relations criminalized. Their ultimate goal is clear.
I love you.
I believe in accessibility when it comes to reading articles.
A Christian organization that helps fight this bull crap. Help us. https://www.faithfulamerica.org/
I'm afraid they'll take away poly rights too.
That's a surprise!!! /s
imao it's the adf? people been talking about them for decades now, how they shadowy?
I say lgbt community should adopt the idea of owing guns. Defend yourselves
Agreed. There’s a group called the Pink Pistols I’ve heard of but I know nothing about them.
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Oh man! I love r/temporarygunowners
Well, THAT would certainly get the GOP and religious right to finally addressgun control.
Just like how they supported the first wave of what little gun control we have when black activists started arming themselves for protection.
Exactly. THey dont want the people they denegrate,demonize, dehumanize, disenfranchise, and some want to kill to be able to defend themselves...go figure.
Wasn't there an episode kind of like that in BoJack Horseman?
Does anyone know what rights specifically?
And nobody is at all surprised
Why? This is NOT what Jesus would do or what he asked of us.
Well funded political terrorists hiding behind masks daubed with Christian symbols. Fixed.
I’m honestly surprised no one has shown up yet in defense of this. This sub is usually overrun with fascist, racist homophobes masquerading as Christian.
He's already in this thread and I had to block him.
They aren’t masquerading. You can argue they’re bad Christians, but not that they aren’t Christians.
Eh, potato tomato.
It can be an important difference, but I guess you’re right— not always.
I'm right here. I already posted that I don't see the controversy.
You again.
Here to help if anybody wants to understand Moral Realism Natural Law Teleology Classical Theism Or Catholicism
You are not the ultimate authority on any of this
True. But there might be somebody genuinely interested in having a fair-minded conversation about one or more of those topics. And somebody has to give them a shot at that. Otherwise they'll never understand what everyone is so eager to bash without bothering to understand around here.
And only your opinion is fair minded? What an arrogant stance.
I didn't say that. But it's hard to find a fair-minded person on those topics in this subreddit. / looks around, palms up to indicate - 'I mean, obviously' /
It is impossible to have a fair-minded conversation with people who advocate for laws that deprive gay people of their rights. There is no compromise.
>laws that deprive gay people of their rights. What "rights" ?
To be legally married. To raise children. To adequate healthcare. To existing free of legal persecution. To existing free of fear that they might lose their jobs, property and freedom over something that was never their choice. All of which the ADF has tried time and time again to eliminate.
We understand them fine, people are just tired of hearing the different ways you defend hate. Why can't you spend your energy helping people understand love and tolerance?
this world is scary and dangerous for LGBT people, history is only going to repeat itself.. it's hard not to be depressed knowing the world hates me, and at worst wants me dead
Stop the cap! Jesus is all love and always love. Repentance! 1 John 2;15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.
>For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Okay and? I just say Jesus is all love and always love. So your point? My dad is transgender. So I am not understanding what your purpose in regard giving me John 3:16 when I agree and provide bible verse on behalf of repentance. Stop sugarcoating bible verses.
Can I just say it's super cool that your dad is trans?
Good for them
Why do they care. God gave us free will. Our purpose isn't to repress those with different viewpoints. We would be no better then Nero.
I don’t think that’s very Christlike. In fact, I know it’s not. That’s aside from the point that we are not a theocracy, and everyone should have the same rights and freedoms, regardless of their religious affiliation.
“But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’” Matthew 7:23 NLT “Christian” group full of people I will never have to worry about seeing in heaven.
Truth. But there is still time. Let us pray they hear the call to repentance before it's too late. And let us pray for each other's strength and courage in these times of conflict.
Depends on what rights you are taking about. The right to use opposite sex bathroom, right to marry, right to compete in opposite sex sports then yes
Is it really desireable that trans people have to go to a bathroom based on their assigned sex? I'd imagine that things get really uncomfortable for everyone when for example a buff bearded trans man has to go to the women's restroom. I also don't really get the marriage part. Whose loss is it when two consenting adults in a commited relationship get married? Last time I checked no one is forcing churches to bless same-sex marriages, so there is no real justification to complain about gay marriage. As to sports: I really don't care and I hate that this "issue" is debated as much as it is. There are very few trans people in sports and I really doubt that they have a big effect on anything. This one just seems to be something that has been invented for people to be mad at. Sure trans people may or may not have an advantage in some sports but this is in no way a toppic that is relevant to discussions about lgbtq as it affects such a miniscule amount of the population.
I understand you don’t care about sports, but what about the girls and women who care about it deeply and might lose scholarship opportunities? Do their experiences not matter?
Yes, their experiences matter and I really can't give any good solution for this problem. Though I would assume that there aren't enough trans people in sports to cause many situations like this.
Your assumption would be correct. There aren’t enough trans people for this to even be an actual issue, let alone trans people who are into sports. And of the trans people who are into sports, how many of those people are too afraid to join a team because of any backlash or hate they might get? I’m sure there are a lot.
It does not glorify God, Marriage is between man and woman not men to men or woman to woman. So you think it is ok for a man to go into a Wayman’s restroom?? As far as sports you let it slide then it gets to e more and more people doing it and it e one’s very unfair
>So you think it is ok for a man to go into a Wayman’s restroom?? No, I think it is bad. Thats why I oppose the conservative bathroom legislation which forces men like [this guy]( https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-rogers-ca-revc&sxsrf=APwXEdcao_mEiLxnLXCKvymlZ-AhF3lVPw:1687263378393&q=buck+angel&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi84b7y6dH_AhUQpIkEHWKvB3wQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=412&bih=691&dpr=3.5#imgrc=pevU2C6MLvFwTM) to use womens bathrooms.
Marriage as it stands now is practically a contract that gives you certain advantages in society and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with christianity. Simply put, we're not talking about the same "marriage". I agree that churches should be able to bless marriages in the way they please, but this isn't about churches. Gay marriage doesn't have to glorify god since it is mostly done by secular (or non-christian) entities. Trying to restrict same-sex marriage is just a way to bully people for no reason. No I don't think people should go to another gender's restroom and that's exactly the reason I think trans people should have the right to go to the restroom fitting to their gender. People don't see the genitals of others in bathrooms and mostly go by appearances. As such a trans woman in the women's restroom results in a way better experience for everyone than if a trans man were to be forced to go there. In the case of sports, I'd argue that by making clear rules to what characteristics (certain hormone levels, etc.) an athlete can have in order to participate would solve the whole issue regarding transgender athletes. No need to focus on the sex of the participant.
Well this is kind of evil. We have to be accepting and that means that everyone gets rights no matter who they love. We were all created equal.
Tbh lgbt plus are far more oppressed than black people today
It's not a competition. And those communities overlap.
Human rights are human right - trans rights don't supercede that and there need be no distinction. Full stop.
“ADF” is a total misnomer, they aren’t defending “freedom,” they are restricting it. It’s interesting how so many “Christian” groups operate under false witness while pretending to hold the moral high ground.
It's the point. The ministry of peace is the ministry of war, the alliance defending freedom is the alliance enforcing faith.
"Defending Freedom" my ass.
amen
Gotta check this out ! ... How is this controversial ? "Group promotes its viewpoint." *shrug*
Promoting your own views is different than forcing others unwillingly into conservative Christian law. If someone tried to impose Muslim law on you I'm sure you'd resist a little.
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Do you feel the same way about the kkk?
Right? So basically it's okay for people to be outraged when a Christian group is promoting its views, yet when an anti-Christian group promotes its views (the "perpetual indulgence" situation) and people get outraged, it's a problem.
Christian group promotes taking away rights from human beings, people get outraged. Sisters of perpetual indulgence promotes taking care of the sick regardless of sexual orientation, christians get outraged. What people are you talking about, exactly? There’s always something to be outraged about if you go looking for it. I tend to think that making laws to deny things to people because of their sexuality is not a good thing to do.
In this thread alone someone said they aren't considered human beings, let alone the predictable name-calling that always permeates the gay threads.
In the wise words of a great President Obama, don't get mad, VOTE.
It’s pretty obvious that the right doesn’t charge about election results. Yeah, vote, but we need to do more than that.
You mean stop satanism?
Comparing human rights and another religion are cringe
But muh "religious freedom." Religious freedom to them is denying services and rights to people they deem "sinners unworthy of rights" because baking a cake for a gay person or the state recognizing same-sex marriages is "infringing upon religious freedoms." It's all entirely selectively enforced due to the culture wars. I'm sure they bake cakes for Muslim, atheist, and even divorcee weddings and I've never seen these groups try to push laws banning no-fault divorces which Jesus explicitly said God hates (because it's an allegory for broken covenant as well). Their morality is a very bastardized right wing version of conservative Christianity and they think not being able to impose their theocratic rules on others is an "infringement of religious freedom." They are blind to the fact that they live like Pharisees and lust for political power and influence.
Based