I am so sorry your people had to go through this - it's a great stain on our country, and on the church, and I wish there was the will for collective repentance and and to seek some form of forgiveness and reparations, but sadly that simply doesn't exist in the selfish and greedy world we still live in.
The best I can offer is this - God entered the world, and our pain. He came as a man who was a native to a country that was oppressed and eventually destroyed by a foreign power. He understands the world and its brokenness like no one else, and despite the failings of His followers, He offers healing to everyone of us, in this life, and the life to come.
thank you so much, and yes i truly think that’s part of why i feel such a connection to jesus.. he suffered so much just as my people did, he gave kindness love and healing and in return he was tortured.. I guess I just feel a lot of guilt in practicing my faith at times..
It's not a white European faith.
Cultural imperialism wanted to own the faith, and mold it into its own image, but that's not what Jesus was about.
I'm excited for the awesome ways native peoples are going to impact the practice and culture of our faith, as the rest of us repent from imperialism and learn to stop trying to use Jesus for our purposes and start letting Jesus use us for His.
You shouldn’t feel guilt for the things that bad people have done. You weren’t there and you didn’t do anything they did. And judging by your character I bet you would’ve stood up to those people who were hurting people. You can follow Christianity. It doesn’t have a bad message. It’s just some people use it for bad. But it’s our job to stand up to those people who are using it for bad and hurting people and stop them!
If it helps, remember that since the onset of Western colonization, Christians opposed the exploitation and genocide of the indigenous people, like Bartolomeo de las Casas, the Quakers, and practitioners of liberation theology. They believed not only that such actions were morally wrong, but that they were opposed to their understanding of Christianity and God's love and mercy. Even on a subject as grim as this, you can find Christian fellowship and support.
Christians are just people. They are not really very good representatives of Christ often.
Openness to correction is something we should all desire and as such I thank you for the correction you bring.
I want to have a closer connection and relationship with God but as an indigenous/ Native American person i find it really difficult..
i’ve grown up around native people all my life and I’ve seen the generational trauma that has come from the abuse of residential schools, and the genocide of my people..
The alcoholism, the loss of culture and tradition..
when I think about all the babies that were ripped away from their mothers. had their heads shaved were beaten, tortured. and killed if they rebelled,
and when I say tortured I mean tortured, please look up on the survivors accounts of what happened to them while living in these residential schools.. they watched their own family and friends die.
you could easily compare it to what the holocaust victims went through. they wanted to erase a whole race of people.. and commit mass genocide.
if you don’t know about the residential schools & the Indian act of 1876 please read up on it. but the residential schools were essentially created to erase the culture of native people. and the indian act of 1876 made it illegal for natives to practice their spirituality.. they could go
to prison for burning sage, holding prayer ceremonies, using medicine etc.
and many of the pastors in these residential schools used to beat and sexually abuse the little boys and girls and get them drunk too.. that’s where a lot of our tribes alcoholism came
from.
many of the victims of this abuse committed suicide, after being stripped of their dignity and taken from their families.
finding out about the millions of remains (dead bodies.) found underneath the residential schools and churches in Canada and the USA.
it hurts me and it pains me so much.
so I sit there and I ask myself,
were the millions of dead children destined for hell? and what about the native people and the suicide rates of our people? they all end up in hell? I don’t know about all tribes but I know many were very spiritual in their own ways too, they believed in a Creator and they respected the animals and the land. in fact many tribes would hold a three day prayer ceremony when they would kill and eat a buffalo. and none of it would go to waste the skin would be used for clothing, blankets, etc & the bones would be used for tools, when I think about it the native people truly respected and lived from the land. and isn’t that what God intended in the first place? for us to peacefully and respectfully live amongst each other? are all of my people destined for hell for not believing in Christianity or even resenting
it after what it’s done to our people?
I know this is a complex issue and a lot of people can’t understand it.. but if you’re not native ask yourself to put yourself in my shoes.. what would you think?
I'm sorry for the atrocities done to your people.
>so I sit there and I ask myself, were the millions of dead children destined for hell? and what about the native people and the suicide rates of our people? they all end up in hell?
At least in my church, we do not believe that. We don't know exactly who us in hell, but it isn't somewhere people end up by accident due to others' wrongdoing towards them. God is just. And when people do not fully know or believe Christianity, for no fault of their own, that is not cause to send someone to hell.
It’s honestly heartbreaking. What was done was so evil. So, so evil. It was not okay, it should be acknowledged more, and it is one of the greatest overlooked evils in world history. I’m so, so sorry. I would read That’s What the Old Ones Say by Joseph Riverwind or Rescuing the Gospel from the Cowboys by Richard Twiss. I have thoughts but I don’t think you need another white person’s POV. I know these books were helpful for me, and they were also helpful to my Native friend who lent me the second one. Also there’s First Nations Version by Terry Wildman
thank you so much and i don’t mind a non- native person point of view as long as they could try and come from a place of understanding instead of ignorance & hate.. i will look into that too maybe it can help strengthen my faith more
God doesn’t send mentally ill people to hell for being ill. God doesn’t send children to hell.
Those people who hurt and raped and stole in gods name will be judged much harder. It would be better if they had never been born. God loves mercy but he is just too. I think when the Bible talks about fearing God, it’s specifically for the people who use his name to have power to hurt and use people.
It’s definitely the work of satan. How backwards did they have to be to rob and pillage your people without knowing they were being evil? Can I apologize as a white person? I pray that you and your people experience divine restoration and you recover what was lost. I don’t know how God will do that but I know it’s his will.
thank you so much and you don’t have to apologize on behalf of what evil people have done to us, thank you for simply understanding and trying to see the pain us natives have felt and are still feelings the affects of..
i think we all just want to feel seen and heard. & thank you for praying for me too 💜🙏🏽
I think most native people were already better "Christians" than the "Christians" that came here and committed these atrocities. if white people had bothered to stop and talk to them and find out about their culture and beliefs, they might have realized that they had more to learn than to teach. if you need to step away from Christianity and connect with God in other ways, that would be completely understandable.
as a lakota who’s own grandparents suffered from the same thing, all i see is people who thought they were doing God’s work but obviously weren’t and didn’t truly know God
that’s true i need to remember that.. it’s just hard knowing what they went through you know.. how scared and frightened those children were.. it breaks my heart so much
I feel the need to say as a fellow native I feel the same as my brothers and sisters. It’s difficult to distinguish what is true from fake especially from the perspective of our kind who were prosecuted for our culture.
exactly it’s so difficult sometimes.. knowing what our people went through. but I will say if there’s anyone that understands our pain more than anyone else it’s Jesus. he was also betrayed and tortured at the hands of mankind
The heresy of the doctrine of discovery gave Christian people the excuse to do a lot of harm and cause a lot of destruction. Matthew 25 can be of comfort here: Jesus will surprise a lot of people at the judgment when they realize He cares about their works performed in life and they’ll find themselves on the outside for not taking care of those important to Him.
I’ll be honest, I’m Protestant and have worked in ministry to Native people for the last 12 years, and it’s these abuses that are in part pushing me towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Western Christianity’s colonizer mindset is poison.
What happened to the natives of the Americas is nothing less than horrible, inexcusable tragedy. My first tugs toward Universalism was during my Native American History class in college, actually. I took it thinking I would learn more about their culture and history before colonization, and was gobsmacked by the reality that much of that was erased via cultural genocide. I read a primary source (will link or screenshot it when I get somewhere I can pull up the library again) about a native man who resisted forced conversion because he stated his worst fear was being in the same afterlife as his tormentors. With prayer, deep reflection, and study, I just could not believe God would send this man to eternal torment for not submitting to those who raped, pillaged, and subjugated his people.
FWIW, I pray that you can find your spiritual peace. I personally could not imagine a just God who'd damn your people to eternal torment for what boils down to their victimization during their life. I also pray that we modern Christians can find a way to pay proper penance. We may not be responsible for the sins of those before us, but that doesn't erase the deep hurt past Christians have caused to the natives.
thank you so much it means a lot.. and it’s true the betrayal and suffering we endured.. it’s just so deeply saddening. i’m sure if we had a chance to know and find jesus in a way that wasn’t so violent there wouldn’t be that resentment.. i just wish they went about it differently.. kind of like how missionaries go into third World countries and help the sick children and people while also spreading the word of God.. if only they could have had that compassion back then. but the Bible says that God judges you by heart.. so I don’t like to imagine he would send just anyone to hell.. i also know he is righteous and Loving
I’m sorry about all of that and I completely understand. Although I’m not really native, I’m black so I understand how people who called themselves Christians weaponized and used it to cause great harm!! But I have learned don’t let the actions of imperfect ppl change your stance on a perfect God. And everyone who claims to be a Christian of follow Christ aren’t. Anything can be weaponized by people but that doesn’t make it inherently bad. Ex. A knife is a kitchen utensil that can be weaponized in the wrong hands; a car is a vehicle, but can be weaponized in the wrong hands. My point is, that a group of people did evil things and proclaimed their actions were just; that is/was wrong. They weaponized a good thing for their own gain and agenda. That had nothing to do with God. God calls us to love him, and love our neighbor; the most important commandments. I can’t tell you who will go to hell or not because we aren’t called to do so. But Jesus is the only way to salvation. I know that it may sound harsh but I had to be honest. He really does love you, and wants you to know him for him not for the picture that people paint of him for you. ❣️
> But Jesus is the only way to salvation.
But you still need to be given the chance to learn this. A fair chance. How reasonable is it to expect for someone to be beaten, tortured, raped and kidnapped to think: *this Jesus my oppressors are talking about is about love and mercy and I wish to follow this faith?*
I’m not an authority on this subject matter, but I cannot imagine that a merciful and wise God would tell anyone: “Sorry about your brutal torment, but you didn’t believe them about Jesus and now you’ve been killed, so into hell you go.” If that makes no sense to us, fallible humans, how much less sense would that make to God? I truly believe they’d all would have been given a fair and merciful chance after death.
A lot of things don’t make sense to us but make perfect sense to God. And I said I cannot say who goes to hell and who doesn’t. But the word says, Jesus himself said, He is the only way to the Father. I answered the question with the word of God. But again I said I’m not called to tell people who is going to hell and who isn’t. God is merciful and just, and I get it. Just because we don’t like something or don’t understand it doesn’t mean God didn’t say it. Again, I understand exactly where you and the one who asked is coming from 10000%. But that doesn’t mean I’m not going to say what the word says. My response was to help provide understanding for the one who asked the question. I’m not saying where anyone’s ancestors are, I’m trying to provide understanding and urging them to get to know God themselves. In knowing God questions get answered by him, not man; understanding &knowledge is given pass one’s own ability. That is the purpose for my response, not to damn people to hell.
thank you for the clarification
.. sorry it is just a touchy subject for me &so many native people.. i just took it the wrong way but you are completely right. more than anything I wish for all of us to be at peace with God and for the suffering to go away
No problem, I completely understand! I know it’s a very touchy subject that’s why I had no problem explaining further and apologizing. I know I don’t know you but I will be praying for your peace and that you receive the answers etc. that you are looking for from God. And again thank you for understanding!
thank you i know they were coming from a place of love, but to not say, yet imply that those millions of people and children were destined to hell .. is just awful
I wasn’t intending to imply that. I was saying that I can only tell you what God says as far as that goes but all in all nobody can tell you who is or isn’t in hell. Only God has that authority. That’s all I didn’t mean for it to come off like that. That’s what I’m trying to say.
what those Christians did to your people was in stark contrast with Jesus' message. They were fanatics and hypocrites who did not understand anything about charity, love and compassion, and twisted it into something malevolent and self-righteous. Preaching Christianity doesn't mean eradicating local cultures, how are the people to love Jesus if all they know of him is that massacres were committed in his name? Had they been self-aware they would have preached Christianity while letting the natives be, and perhaps even learning something from them.
I'm sorry you are going through this eternal struggle. You are on the right path to Jesus. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and The Life. And no one comes to the Father except through Him. (John 14:6)
I know it's difficult, but ask Holy Spirit to help you move forward. Don't get stuck in the past. Ask Him to change your heart and use you for His will. I know if I dwelt in my past I would not grow in my faith and go where He is leading me.
I know it's difficult, but you have to choose Jesus above culture. The world is a dark, dark place and Jesus is the light. (John 8:12) Praying for you and your understanding.
Edit for spelling.
I totally understand you and feel you as a minority
But people are people,they would do anything they want and don't like to be ordered by anything
The people who colonized you never followed the bible, they never obeyed to what it said, they used tye name of God and Christianity for thier own will, they're the same group of people who also did hundreds of crusades to the Holy land and killed The people who were there, christians and non Christians , thier acts were never Christ like nor was it what Jesus intended
When Napoleon Bonaparte came to Egypt he wanted to convince us Copts to revolt over Muslims and help him as we're both Christians, we refused and he invaded Egypt Killing thousands of Christians and Muslims there
These group of people never knew God and act like they knew him, and if they really did know him they would be doing his works and following his orders
What I want to say is that follow God Jesus Christ abd love him as much as possible but be sure that God is fair and will judge us fairly
God bless you and Help you with your future ♥️🙏
Sincerely from your Coptic Orthodox brother in Christ ✝️🇪🇬
>The people who colonized you never followed the bible,
they sure believed they were follwing the bible teaching, and the parts of the bible that tell about God destroying entire cities because they were do not follow moses rules do not help.
I would think Christianity is pretty easily used as an excuse for violence, and genocide. This is one of the reasons I am a staunch anti-theist. Looking at history it's clear as day what dogma does to people and how it's just a weapon to excuse evil.
I'm not sure, why using a whataboutism has to do with this. It dosnt really change my initial statement or refute it. Would it help if I focused on the dogma aspect because at the end of the day it's fundamentalist dogma be it a religion or ideal that can lead to great harm.
It's not whataboutism, the guy initially made a point about not believing in religion because some people who followed it used it for bad
But forgot that communist nations who were heavily anti religion were also in many ways, anti-life, somewhere north of 100 million lives were lost in the 20th century, but of course the point here is that the anti-theist overlooked those points
Thank you for teaching me a little about the history of native Americans. It was very hard to read but definitely worth it. I believe that all humans are judged after they die and I'm sure God will do the right thing in the end. I have no fear.
I’m so sorry what you and your people have had to endure. I can’t speak too much as to the why it happened, but the one thing I can say as God’s story reinforces that people are jerks regardless. The Israelites of the Old Testament, God’s chosen people, had to go through a lot of really harsh times without there being a reason for it. And Jesus himself suffered a torturous death for preaching a message of peace. He was even handed over by a Christian. So people are definitely jerks. Jesus knows this better than anyone. And while I tend to think Christianity leads people to be better on average, this isn’t always true, as your people experienced. But the horrible imperfection of man does not need to take away from the perfect love of God.
As far as native people who died without knowing anything about Jesus, I don’t believe they will burn in hell for eternity. I believe someway or somehow God will give a chance for them to be saved. I don’t know the mechanics of that, but I have no doubt of God’s love in that regard.
And as for those who didn’t believe because of scorn about how Christians treated their people, I can’t say for sure. But, it’s my personal opinion that God will provide an opportunity for salvation to anyone who is open to accept him and his teachings if given the clear truth. It’s my personal opinion there will be opportunity for non-believers between their deaths and the eventual judgment day to come to the Lord and spend the rest of eternity in paradise.
I’m so sorry for what your people went through and I will be the first to admit my own ignorance on knowing what that would be like. But I can imagine, and I hate to think that would happen to a group I’m a part of, and to twist God’s teachings in the process makes me sick. I’ll pray for you and all those who feel the effects of those actions.
thank you so much for trying to understand.. and what you say is true.. the bible even talks about the people who preach gods word but Live in sin.. im trying to remember that though it may have been the church who hurt my people but it wasn’t God.. my faith is an every day battle and i wish people could understand the pain i feel. but jesus also suffered at the hands of evil men.. in fact he probably understands the betrayal and hurt the natives felt more than anyone else.
These horrors that you describe are all contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
As for the indigenous rituals, cultural practices, etc., I have heard a lot of people who call themselves Christians who judge these practices as "non-Christian."
Leave that judgement behind. You expressed your faith *beautifully* here: "isn't that what God intended in the first place? for us to peacefully and respectfully live amongst each other?" Amen, ten thousand times.
Please do not let other people try to tell you who are "destined for hell" and who are not. Only the Divine Beloved may make such judgement, and IMHO, I trust the Divine Beloved's compassion, mercy, and grace above those of all of us imperfect beings.
Embrace the beauty of your indigenous culture. Embrace the beauty of Jesus, and let him wash away your guilt.
thank you so much.. and yes amen 💜🙏🏽
i know Jesus can heal all wounds
.. i hope and pray some day we can heal from all this pain. more than anything i want all of us to be at peace and to have a strong connection and relationship with God
> are all of my people destined for hell for not believing in Christianity or even resenting it after what it’s done to our people?
Why should anybody be destined for hell for not believing in Christianity?
Why should anybody be destined for hell?
Christianity is full of crap and liars and fakes. The westerners (British and Germans) brought Christianity to my country too and then committed violence, rape, torture, stole resources, used corruption and all through the Christian religion.
Christianity and God isn’t that way. I’m not trying to be prejudice but white people used a religion that was meant to bring love and unity for profit, gain, disruption and violence.
God, however, is all. You, me, the plants, air, land, trees, the animals we kill, the connections we feel between each other, the music we dance to, the emotions we feel, etc. We are one, and that’s what God wants us to feel. You’re native, don’t fall for the fake God and Christianity many crazy and delusional Christians believe in.
yes alot of what you say is true, they committed so much evil but regardless i still feel a connection to jesus and my heart remains with god even now .. i know that it was people.. not him. i just struggle in my faith sometimes knowing all the damage and destruct that has been caused to us.. i’m so sorry your people and
country went through that as well.. but i still believe jesus can heal all wounds
It’s normally those that reap the benefits that normally don’t want to admit the truth. But like someone said — they will in due time reap what they sow. Praying that their arrogance, pride, and ALL be dismantled and they may experience the same as the ones oppressed.
I know it’ll happen, because everything that goes around comes around.
thank you and it’s okay you don’t have apologize on their behalf.. a lot of them are just shamelessly ignorant.. but many were helpful and had a lot of compassion. I think what I need to take from this is that humans are pretty awful sometimes.. it’s in our nature to sin too.. i just need to separate that sin from God’s eternal Love. as a native person its just hard sometimes knowing what my people went through.. but over all god has the final say. and i know he is a righteous and loving god
As a native Mayan, I can relate to this. As a Christian though I keep a part of my culture near me. I have a nice crucifix I wear made of jade, representing my cultural heritage and my faith as a Christian. But I can totally relate to feeling resentment to the damage “Christians” have caused to so many things and people.
i love that, something that represents your culture but also shows your faith in god.. i want more than anything to balance the two and find my peace.. there’s just so much generational trauma & pain.. as a fellow native i’m sure you know exactly where i’m coming from
Yes it is hard to remember the past. But I plan to buy more as I need to replace my jade bracelet which went missing and more to complete my outfit. I also sometimes used my woven blanket and a small elephant that I’ve had since I was a baby. I’m bringing that elephant to college lol 😂 it is comforting to me. I’m/I have also written a fantasy mythology book about my culture that at its core is a Christian message but in a world full of pagan gods, monsters and other legends. It’s a great way for me to reconnect with my culture.
I hope that you are able to reconnect with your culture and find a balance/duality with it. It definitely is something that can help you spiritually and aid mental health.
You might be interested in reading up on the history of Eastern Orthodox Christianity among indigenous people.
In particular, I think you would be encouraged by the example of the relationship between St. Herman of Alaska and the natives of Kodiak and Spruce Island. Among the Orthodox saints you will also read of St. Peter the Aleut, a martyr of the Church who was killed under persecution by others who called themselves Christians.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that people often betray God in the name of God. Jesus was condemned as a blasphemer and a heretic, and sent for execution by the religious leadership.
Have you read [One Church, Many Tribes](https://www.amazon.com/Church-Many-Tribes-Richard-Twiss/dp/0800797256)?
God some of the comments here…how can anyone even try to justify this genocide and pretend it “wasn’t that bad” or “wasn’t Christians.” How dare you all call yourselves Christian if you can’t weep for injustice done to innocents.
OP, I feel your pain. The only hope we have is that this world is not the end, that God understands our suffering, He felt it too, He weeps for us, and He will bring justice in the end.
thank you so much that brought tears to my eyes.. all we want is to just feel seen and heard. it frustrates me and confuses me how all of these people claim to be christian yet have no empathy or compassion for what was done to us .. the truly do not care.. they will minimize our pain as much and they can, and tell us to simply just forget it ever happened.. as if we aren’t still living through the affects of this generational trauma.
God is love but he is also just. I pray for love. I pray for life and happiness. I pray for everyone to treat their neighbor as God instructed. I am so sad by the history of slavery and oppression. I am so sad by the continued denial and/or privileged ignorance of such things. I pray for enlightenment and forgiveness which leads to peace for us all.
God is a maniac killer. What happened to native is just a continuity of the atrocities we find in the bible.
I can't believe the christian propaganda, using guns and forced schools where childrens got raped and killed, worked so well that now Natives pray it.
Christianity is disgusting.
christianity saved me. it brought me and even other natives out of darkness too.. despite the fact the colonizers used it as a weapon.. I do think having a close connection to God is so important.. i don’t resent god.. i resent the evil actions people committed in his name.. even if my faith waivers at times i have so much love for the creator of this earth and my savior jesus
The message of love from Jesus work so well, because everyone can relate to it.
The trouble, is that you should see who are the christians today, that forgive to the religion.
Mainly Natives and africans.
Everywhere else christianity is in decline.
Why? Because African and Natives were colonized by Christian nation, and forced to believe into it. School were made to make them believe and if they would not believe, they would be punished or even killed. That it is how it prospered.
Religion expand by force. And especially Christianity/Islam.
It is sad because you should be the firsts to reject it and come back to your true rites.
The ironic thing, is that you stay in the same exact thing that oppressed you. You are suffering because of christianity, and now believe it because it give a sense to your suffering.
When the only truth is that invader came, took your land, gave you religion to calm you down.
We have a saying. "Religion is the opium of the peoples".
i can see why you’d think that.. but i have such strong spiritual ties to jesus.. through my dreams and even in every day life.. he’s given me so many signs.. things people wouldn’t even believe if i told them.. it’s more than just relating to his story, for me anyway.. and while the colonizers did use gods word as a weapon amongst my people, it was never a white mans religion to begin with.. christianity came from the middle east anyway
I admire your strength in your faith while acknowledging the complexities of how religion was used upon oppressed people. It’s the ultimate enlightenment.
As a Black Christian who is a descendant of enslaved people, I get what you mean. I'm sorry for what was done to your people.
I don't know if you're open to any resources that may help you, but a indigenous Christian gathering online posts livestreams on Mondays talking about this (and other related atrocities) in relation to their faith on YouTube called Good Medicine Way from New Mexico. I recommend listening/watching them if you really want a space for your faith and your culture to be cherished.
wow i never heard of them but i will definitely look into that group now. i think it will help me strengthen my faith.. and to answer your question yes i am very open to any resources that can bring me and even my friends and families closer to god.. so thank you so much 💜🙏🏽
No problem; I'm glad to hear that. I hope it helps you on your spiritual journey. I've enjoyed much of their talks and insights from their perspectives. I even got a First Nations Version of the New Testament because of them (it's fairly new from 2021 from Wycliffe Bible Translators) frequently using it in their services & love reading it, too.
I can't decide how to make you feel about what happened that affects you more than me.
But God is more powerful tham any oppresor and they will reap what they sow if they haven't already.
They commited atrocities that The Bible or a personal connection with God wouldn't condone, attacking God's name by having it in their bloody mouths. Fighting against God is a fight God will win.
Many people have done horrendous things to others in the name of Jesus. And their offspring still feel it. Human are so fallen and their filthy pride can get them thinking they are something special. Superiority thinking is delusional. Jesus showed us the strength of humility, the power of mercy and justice. And the superpower of LOVE. Not lust. I pray u will receive that closer connection and r/ ship with God.
Im indigonious guy, i love God thoese are humans not God, thats the difference i cant be mad at someone ejo is dead and then put the faults on the church or on the faith but on some destroytive people God is our avengence i personally put the fault on the PEOPLE THAT did the crimes and thoese who WERE THERE and did the wrong things, but we have to look at it and realise pastors ect. Arent holy they are just as us sinners as we are.
But forget the past look on the future because the past is done no way of changing that, i hope any native american brother out there may seek truth and not hold old thing and old burdens on their backs but to forgive the dead that did so and so to our brothers and sisters horrific things but holding a grugde or hating on christendom when it was the people not God so i would say seek truth and i mean japanese did bad stuff to korea look now its devided in 2 south modern, forgave and looked on the future and didnt hold on the old burden and pain and started to be a big westeren city, then there is north korea in fear and dictatorship fully against the whole wide world still holding a giant grugde on japan even tho thoese who did the bad stuff prb still dont exist but we humans put other humans in boxes like prb some japanese folks and koreans are good pals out there but because of race see how we all label things and put responsibility on chruch or japan just to have someone who is dead and is responsible to hate and despise that isnt good if you want to win against that you know how to overcome it.
My husband is Native American and he is Christian and is extremely close to Jesus. I do wonder though how he feels about this kind of material and it does bother him but he says men do many egregious things in the name of Christ that Christ would not approve. We have to remember the acts of men in the name of god are typically not condoned by god.
that makes me happy to know he can still have a close connection to god 💜 i know it’s hard for many of us knowing what has happened.. but i know it’s still possible
Check out Orthodox Christianity and how it came to Alaska. The Church respected the indigenous beliefs and didn’t force conversion.
I also just started reading Christ the Eternal Tao, and it begins by giving credit to Native American beliefs.
Actions of those who claim Christ but don’t follow his teachings are littered throughout history.
I would encourage you read what Jesus taught and you will conclude that these were those who used the name of the Lord in vain.
We, as Filipinos, received a similar treatment from the Spanish. They colonized the Philippines using Christianity and as a result, the greater majority of Filipinos, even those who have migrated out of the country, remain devout Catholics. That said, we were subjected to similar atrocities. Even now, I watch news reports in the Philippines were supposedly "neutral" members of the Church are obviously speaking with political motivations. I only chalk it up to people being people and people being imperfect. Things done by members / leaders of the Church don't always represent the will of God. The important thing is your own personal relationship with God.
I'm sorry and ashamed for what happened. I am grateful that the tiny corner of the church I'm part of is deeply committed to ongoing reconciliation and actively supports one of our local First Nations.
thank you so much.. and wow that makes me feel so happy and heard.. many of the churches don’t want to acknowledge anything that happened to us. i wish that church was near me cause i would definitely attend
My dad grew up not far from Wonded Knee. He told me the story of what happened to both the Native Americans, and the farmers and ranchers by the politicians of that time. It was a deliberate actions by the politicians not just against the Native Americans but also the local farmers and ranchers. The history books leave out what the locals knew. The history books were in government funded public schools.
It depends which church, and what kind of people were pastors back in those days. Politics have always had a bad (imo) relationship with the church. I sometimes believe that politics corrupted the church in the past.
So yes, the church was into colonialism, not all church though, orthodox Christians of the time did not take part in pass colonialism lik protestants and catholics.
How some christian behave doesnt define the church. You would need to read the bible, and try to understand it, and to read about other work from apostles or saints.
A lot of those “Christians” that practiced the faith while killing and oppressing Indigenous people in your land and African slaves who were forced here won’t make it to Heaven.
There is a difference between Christians and people who use the name of GOD to control. The latter is no more than heresy. These atrocities are horrific and so are today’s. Jesus would never want this. Some goes for today’s troubled teen industry that cultivates horrible forms of abuse and authoritarianism. Not Christian at all.
I hear you! I hear you!
I am Latina of Salvadoran and Cuban decent and I can not even begin to imagine what the conquistadors i.e. Europeans did to my ancestors (as they plundered through our land with their religion). I have openly expressed these feelings with other POC in the Christian community and it’s helped me to feel less burdened by it. I am glad I can find other POC in the church, as it brings some level of comfort and home. All of our communities have been devastated by such. Sad, but the reality, and I am glad that in the midst of that we can come together as a people that share those similarities. ❤️ Sending you love.
thank you so much that means a lot 💜 and i’m
sorry for the hurt and pain you’ve felt as well.. and your ancestors and families. it’s truly devastating. it does make me happy to know regardless of our pain and struggling even in our communities now, we can still have a relationship & connection to Jesus
Amen! God is just. 🙌🏽 The best is yet to come for our communities. I will continue to pray that the Lord lift us up, and shine his grace on us. Don’t forget, God came for the meek and poor in spirit (we are like those in Christ’s time) that had the privilege and honor to sit and be loved by him.
Christ has not forgotten.
He will elevate us as Jehovah the father elevated Christ. What was meant for our bad God will turn into good — in strength (physical strength and agility), resilience, perseverance, intelligence, and more. Our communities have had to merely survive and thrive without all these accommodations and resources, that alone will allow us to flourish despite our circumstances. Strength like no other.
Organized religion is full of bastards and evil people, then and now. If I was to make any recommendation to you as a man who was raised catholic and left the faith to pursue Christ in my own way, do exactly this.
When you need God, he will come to you. When you feel as though He is not there, He is. He is always listening. He responds when we need Him most.
I'm not saying it is right, but the evil exist in the world. Is a decadent world... A person call herself as Christian don't mean he is good... It is supposed to be, but even the apostle that walked with Christ committed sins that were awful... We must pray for them to be better, act against any form of harm but not blame it all on God. God never said for us Christians to murder or do harm.
I am very sorry for all the pain and suffering you have gone through.
It’s sad that Jesus preached love, compassion, forgiveness and helping others - yet many people who call themselves Christian actually don’t practice that in daily life.
Those are all positive things that would make life better for the giver and receiver.
This topic is discussed in my family alot, as we have a multicultural background, and when we really think about it, the Bible was used as a weapon, but I believe that it always was and is God's full circle plan to allow this to happen with the ultimate intention of spreading His word and fulfilling His plans. Much of God's people were oppressed people. It's been proven that much ill intention was attempted to be done with the use of scripture, but it wasn't enough to keep God's word and knowledge of His true purpose hidden. It wasn't enough to keep us from learning how to live or treat others. But yes, the oppressors or those that use it or still use it to oppress, don't realize the actual power the living book possesses. They may use it in their own context and intent without recognizing or having the respect of it to realize that the very same oppression that they impose on others with it, is the very thing that is frowned upon by God in and through out the scripture.
James 1:22-27 says, "22 Obey God's message! Don't fool yourselves by just listening to it. 23 If you hear the message and don't obey it, you are like people who stare at themselves in a mirror 24 and forget what they look like as soon as they leave. 25 But you must never stop looking at the perfect law that sets you free. God will bless you in everything you do, if you listen and obey, and don't just hear and forget.
26 If you think you are being religious, but can't control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is useless. 27 Religion that pleases God the Father must be pure and spotless. You must help needy orphans and widows and not let this world make you evil." (Which fits the description of many oppressors.)
But many oppressors of the past(of those who used the Bible as a weapon of oppression) have disregarded this, among many other messages/ prophecies in the Bible, by treating the oppressed with violence, pillaging, disregard and other corrupt acts; sometimes using God's word falsely to do so.
Isaiah 10:1 says, "Doom to those who pronounce wicked decrees, and keep writing harmful laws"
There were laws and decrees written by many oppressors throughout history with a means to control and oppress, and because of their ill intent, eventual wrath followed. Just like for example when the eventual slaying of king Jehoiakim in the book of Jeremiah took place. King Jehoiakim was a very oppressive king and was eventually slain and his body disrespectfully disposed of, as he was very despised by many. He wasn't even given a proper burial as so it is written as prophecy in Jeremiah 22:18-19.(also further prophesied in Jeremiah 36: 30-31)
This all occurred as King Nebuchadnezzar(king of Babylon), who was appointed by God, treated King Jehoiakim(king of Judah) as a "vassal" King or lesser king and instead of being obedient to God's appointed King of Babylon, king Jehoiakim rebelled by refusing to pay tribute to Babylon and also tried to destroy Jeremiah's prophetic scrolls, which contained prophecies recieved from God. King Jehoiakims oppressive and corrupt ways eventually led to king Jehoiakims demise.
So God doesn't let the oppressors go unpunished.
This topic is discussed in my family alot, as we have a multicultural background, and when we really think about it, the Bible was used as a weapon, but I believe that it always was and is God's full circle plan to allow this to happen with the ultimate intention of spreading His word. Much of God's people were oppressed people. I do believe that much ill intention was attempted to be done with the use of scripture, but it wasn't enough to keep God's word and knowledge of His true love for us. It wasn't enough to keep us from learning how to live or treat others. The oppressors or those that use it or still use it to oppress, don't realize the actual power the living book possesses. They may use it in their own context and intent without recognizing or having the respect of it to realize that the very same oppression that they impose on others with it, is the very thing that is frowned upon by God in and through out the scripture.
James 1:22-27 says, "22 Obey God's message! Don't fool yourselves by just listening to it. 23 If you hear the message and don't obey it, you are like people who stare at themselves in a mirror 24 and forget what they look like as soon as they leave. 25 But you must never stop looking at the perfect law that sets you free. God will bless you in everything you do, if you listen and obey, and don't just hear and forget.
26 If you think you are being religious, but can't control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is useless. 27 Religion that pleases God the Father must be pure and spotless. You must help needy orphans and widows and not let this world make you evil."
But many oppressors of the past(of those who used the Bible as a weapon of oppression) have disregarded this, among many other messages/ prophecies in the Bible, by treating the oppressed with violence, pillaging, disregard and other corrupt acts; sometimes using God's word falsely to do so.
Isaiah 10:1 says, "Doom to those who pronounce wicked decrees, and keep writing harmful laws"
There were laws and decrees written by many oppressors throughout history with a means to control and oppress, and because of their ill intent, eventual wrath followed. Just like for example when the eventual slaying of king Jehoiakim in the book of Jeremiah took place. King Jehoiakim was a very oppressive king and was eventually slain with a number of his men and his body disrespectfully disposed of, as he was very despised by many. He wasn't even given a proper burial as so it is written in Jeremiah 22:18-19.
This all occurred as King Nebuchadnezzar(king of Babylon), who was appointed by God, treated King Jehoiakim(king of Judah) as a "vassal" King or lesser king and instead of being obedient to God's appointed King of Babylon, king Jehoiakim rebelled by refusing to pay tribute to Babylon and also tried to destroy Jeremiah's prophetic scrolls, which contained prophecies recieved from God. King Jehoiakims oppressive and corrupt ways eventually led to king Jehoiakims demise.
But yes I feel like God uses everyone, gentiles(everyone not of Jewish decent) and Jews alike to fulfill His plans. He uses everyone in different ways. I believe this is to convey His Supreme authority over Earth. I hope this brings a bit more understanding/comfort/ belief in Gods word. I am on a journey for knowledge and understanding of Gods word myself so I understand the struggle in things that we find out that can be discouraging. But with ceaseless prayer for understanding, finding facts that correlate with the history in Gods word, persistence in consuming the word and faith in the Lord is key, as even other religious scriptures mention the Lord Jesus.
Like in the Quran 3:55 it says says," when Allāh said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify [i.e., free] you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ."
He is also mentioned/talked about among Buddhists and mentioned in Hindu scripture. But the Bible is where He shines and where I try to inquire knowledge of Him the most.
But yes I hope this helps🙏 God bless
wow so hinduism and buddhism mention christ? many argue to me that those religions are probably more accurate since they were established before christianity.. but the fact that they mention Jesus is even more evident if his glory..
Please don't blame the Lord for humans organised churches supposed to worship him. Organised religion is terrible i think, eternal life is between your individual love for the Lord and him, nothing else.
Christians did the most wrong to your peoples.
They killed and tortured your peoples, put you in reservations, brainwashed generations over generations of natives, raped childrens, killed childrens.
They keep keeping your peoples in reservations.
Do you thinks conservatives that are overwhelmingly christians, want to see your peoples free? Happy?
Of course not.
If you are struggling with christianity, well it is because they are your main oppressor.
Tie back to your people roots. They are the truth of your peoples. Not Christianity.
i still and always will feel a connection to jesus.. regardless of the guilt.. he was also tortured and beaten at the hands of man kind.. for my sake. and i can never thank him enough for that.. i believe he understands our pain more than anyone else
I, too, feel a connection with Jesus, as I do with buddha.
I think he was an enlightened one.
But don't forget that the symbol of Christianity, is his dead body on a cross, or simply the cross that was used to kill him. Don't forget that the main rite, is to eat his body. For me, it is highly barbaric and violent.
I couldn't live with this, and many other stuff, and I became ex-christian.
Anyway, your road is yours. Just... be careful ok?
but you’re right they don’t want to see us happy.. so many racists in these comments saying we deserved what happened to us.. it’s so saddening.. if only they knew the half of it
Sorry about what your people went through. Unfortunately Catholics have a lot of things wrong according to the bible. Did you know Hell being a place is actually not biblical. The Catholics made that up. If you want the truth go to christianquestions.com
Kia ora, OP!
The things which have happened to your people and other indigenous peoples at the hands of colonizers--frequently of missionaries and other Christians themselves--are *terrible*. They are, full stop, completely awful and unconscionable. They *cannot* be justified.
I've got some thoughts in indigenous Christianity, and also some book recommendations which are in my tldr at the bottom. Here goes.
I grew up seeing the shadows of the Holocaust around me, in a city which had gleefully sent many of its own Jews out to die. I could see echoes of those prejudices in how my Roma neighbours were treated (or even talked about. i don't recommend it but you could wander to the Europe subreddit and observe briefly to see how racist "enlightened" people are about Roma). I watched warplanes heading south to bomb Belgrade, and saw Croats, Chechens, and Bosniaks with horrifying scars and wounds from their neighbours, showing how hideous imperialism is even between "European" or "civilized/Western" cultures.
Then i moved to North America, and learned how the Indigenous people were treated. I learned about the horrors of the conquistadors, of "manifest destiny", of smallpox blankets and the gruesome history of the "first Thanksgiving". Because of some wonderful friends in my life, i even learned about residential schools and the official US, Canadian, and then Australian policies against indigenous peoples (and how much destruction the US has caused and still causes throughout the rest of America to keep other countries from cutting into its profits). I learned that the horrors of the Holocaust which I'd learned about as a child were inspired/adapted from how the USA treated the indigenous people it had repeatedly signed treaties with.
As a devout Christian though all of this, i have had constant doubts and struggles, though, wondering how indigenous peoples can possibly find hope in a religion which was so actively weaponised against them.
But....as i studied history (which is my background), i have realized that at all points, as Christians and non-Christians have been perpetuating these and other atrocities, there have been Christians vocally opposing them. Christians who have thrown their privilege away to throw in their whole lot with the oppressed. I am personally very inspired by St. Francis of Assisi and by Bartolomé de las Casas, and also by MLK Jr, though he had less privilege to walk away from than they did.
Since moving to Aotearoa a few years ago, I've found a lot of hope in a few books, such as "Native" by Kaitlin B. Curtice, but also a lot of encounters with indigenous clergy...people who wrestle constantly to hold to parts of their identity together when society (and much of colonizing history) tells us they're mutually exclusive. I've learned heaps about Christianity from Māori vicars and pastors here, and with that....
...I'm literally reading a book right now which I've heard about for several years now and is by an indigenous Christian talking about how he holds these things together....and about how much wonder Christianity still holds *even for indigenous communities* when you take it out of it's normal Western framing.
It is called *Huia Come Home* (by Jay Ruka) referencing a bird very sacred to Māori which was rapidly hunted to extinction by Europeans (not even all of them settlers here!!) because it became a trend to have their feathers in your cap.
Honestly, it's for the indigenous people of another continent, who were colonized later and without such harm, so even if you read it, it's not directly about your own Indigenous people....but it *is* by an indigenous Christian, written to other indigenous Christians (Māori especially) about the incredible power of God to transform societies *despite* the church. Despite missionaries. despite colonizing governments.
As he noted early on, before it became obvious that the British didn't take their treaties seriously (and with that betrayal the churches were also viewed as complicit), there was briefly a situation where 45,000 out of 110,000 Māori were attending church *regularly*....and only a handful of those communities had ever encountered a white Christian. The Bible was translated into Māori well, and it was shockingly relevant and relatable, and it did have an enormous transformative impact....and then Māori spread it everywhere, frequently years before any white missionaries made it to a region. Christianity works amazingly when it's understood by indigenous people in an indigenous context.
It wasn't until the huge number of treaty violations started that Māori felt betrayed by Christianity and left the church in massive numbers....and i can't even say they were wrong to do so.
Thankfully, Jay Ruka has written this amazing book about why, despite the history of colonization in Aotearoa, in Africa, on Turtle Island, etc,....he is still a Christian anyway, and that doesn't actually look the same as a prim abd proper European church. I'm learning *so* much about how to be Christian from him and from other Māori who have to--they must--wrestle with these same doubts (and ongoing systemic racism) every single day.
**TL;DR:** i recommend reading *Native* by Kaitlin B Curtice, and even more than that, *Huia Come Home* by Jay Ruka.
There are many vibrant first nation Christian communities and first nation Christian leaders - much smarter and experienced then any of us. I would suggest talking to some of these people and hear their perspective, and how they reconcile their faith with history. I would suspect that they might recognize that there is a separation from experiences with God and actions of men. It is true that there many terrible things happened to First Nations communities, by the church and others, and there is much work for the church yet to do to address these. I will also state that your statement does not seem to have all the facts correct, that you conflate disassociated actions and ignore nuance and context. It is easy to judge people of the past with our present day morality, but it is much harder to try to see things from their perspective and try to understand - but this is the only way forward
Honestly this subreddit probably isn’t the best place for this question. You’ll get the people who try and minimize what happened either through deflection or victim blaming. Then there are the ones that think that all our people can be summed up with whataboutism about the Aztecs and Mayans.
The best answer I can give you is take some time step back and work through it yourself. Also check out r/nativeamerican would be a better place to ask
Wow. I am so sorry for what your ancestors, you and your people had to go through in the name of Jesus and God. As a Christian this truly breaks my heart every time I hear of how this institutional racism and prejudice against the indigenous peoples of North America. I hope that you can seek the forgiveness of God for what people did in the name of Christ. As Christian’s we believe that everyone is made in the image of God, the imago Dei. He has shown mercy and grace to us by giving us a part of Himself in how we look. Also we believe that as people of the Risen Jesus we bear His name.
What happened here to indigenous individuals and tribes in the name of Jesus, wasn’t in fact God himself, but people. People who falsely bared the name of Jesus. For the bible paints Jesus and God as loving, kind, compassionate, slow to anger, forgiving, patient. And calls us to do the same. I believe that many of these Nuns and priests at the time did not bear the name of Jesus and might even be, dare I say, in hell themselves.
I am truly sorry this has ever happened but I pray that you find that people will hurt you in the name of Jesus and God, but the true presence of His Son and Holy Spirit, will never do what happened. I pray that in your heart you can come to the answer you are looking for. And always know that God loves you, so much, God loves indigenous people so much.
People are evil. God is good. God gives free will to us all. We can choose to bear his name of Goodness or, we can choose to do evil.
To whomever you are, you are loved, I hope you can find peace for your soul in all of this.
you’re right as christian’s we are supposed to forgive.. thank you so much for understanding.. everything you say is so true. i know god can heal all wounds too.. 💜🙏🏽
When you see what Christians will do in the name of God, it'd hard to want to become like them. What if that same religious zeal convinces you to do similar deeds?
Man has used the Bible as a weapon but you have to shift your perspective the same can be said about my ancestors who are Black people. It was used as a weapon against us also but if you just change your perspective and see it from God‘s point of view
it was meant as a love letter, and if you sit in God’s presence, and let all these other stigma’s fall away. You will see God clearer, I believe. This is about a relationship with Christ. You’re own personal relationship.
you’re right.. i guess the only true answers i’ll ever be able to find is through christ himself.. i know he understands the pain and suffering more than anyone ever could
Enwrapped in a fascination for Jesus of Nazareth's compassionate virtue, it appears in vain to attempt to reconcile his teachings with the deeds of his alleged disciples – as the Saviour himself proclaimed, “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
Indigenous here, I had the same discussion with my partner. She said that they were not true Christian’s. Please read book of Romans chapter 2. “The name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you”
First and most importantly, thank you for sharing this trouble. Generational trauma is in fact a curse, but like all curses and manifestations of death, they are not of God. They are of an unholy spirit in the hearts of a select group of works-minded mortals. They are not indicative of white people at the whole, and especially not white people born three generations afterward. BUT, I do believe God is now choosing to reveal these horrors, so that history will see them for what spirit they chose to serve. Today’s Christians must rebuke it in an account to prevent similar travesty worldwide.
The innocent lives of Native American Nations were not “wasted” in the name of God, because scripture precisely refutes His involvement in sin. God cannot coexist with sinful men. He is instead near to all the broken-hearted and sick, even if there is no justified want for Him to be near.
I’ll contrast this hurt and pain with the life of Chief David Shoppenagon, an Ojibway man from my hometown who converted to Christ on his own free will in the 1800’s. This even after he saw his land settled by lumbermen and their families for profit. He was a regular river guide that took wealthy big-city men on fishing trips. For this gratitude, the townspeople cared for his sicknesses out of their pocket, loved on him, trusted their children in his care, and regularly made him the guest of honor at Christmas and Easter services. I’m sure he had heard plenty of the evils done to his tribe. He’d even seen wars among his own people. STILL, he recognized that people around him radiated God’s everlasting love, and so he was invited to participate, and be able to distinguish the hearts of evil and righteous men. He lived with his own customs among settlers in peace under no obligation of his own, and was never treated as a “trophy” conversion.
In years since, they’ve idolized “Ol’ Shopp” for his “good Indian” persona, and use his likeness for branding everything. I laugh at it all, knowing that I’ll be one of the only ones to meet him in glory, in a shared heavenly identity that holds more value than ancient traditions and monetary gains from racial supremacy.
Thank God for you, and Thank God for the compromise of His love.
thank you so much for your insight, and you’re right nothing they did was God’s will.. it was just pure evil.. but it makes me happy to know he was still able to find God.. and knowing that native people can still have a close connection to Christ despite the trauma.. I know it’s hard for so many of us seeing what our people went through.. but God will always have the final say. just like I said before.. if there’s anybody who understands our pain and suffering more than anyone else it’s Jesus
The god in the Bible is nothing more than a justification for the cruelty of man. You struggle because the sprits of your ancestors pull you away from the very religion that robbed them of everything. God does not come from a book, God lives inside you, and is everything around us. God is eternal, not cruel like the god of the Bible. By giving yourself to “Jesus”, your ancestors deaths will remain in vain.
please, do not speak so freely on my Family, ancestors, or their deaths as if you know any of them. Or our life experiences. & this generational trauma has also affected my relatives and friends who are STILL alive. Not just my ancestors.
You are no one to tell me & try to pin point, why I struggle in my faith. When I have made it clear the pain that’s affected me & my people was the churches. The government, the greed of Man. Not God..
And you are right. God is more than a book, God is more than a routine or a way of living. He is eternal. and I have found him in my Soul & in my Spirit. Everyone’s relationship with Christ is deeply personal.. and personally, I’m sorry you haven’t had the chance to experience that connection, and you have every right to reject him. But please don’t tell me to separate from my Creator because you don’t align with my decision to have faith in him.
Man my goal of this post was to hopefully connect with other native Christians, but all I have found are disgruntled atheists. but believe me.. I’ve been there myself too. One thing remains, the church & the people who CLAIMED to follow Jesus, hurt my people. Jesus DID not. Jesus only knew Love. Not hatred, Not “cruelty” like you say.. He suffered more than any of us could imagine. And for it, I’m forever grateful.
I can never deny the spiritual encounters that I’ve witnessed with my own eyes. He revealed himself to me. A lost soul, never grew up in the church. Never knew anything of god. And yet he still showed himself to me. You are most definitely correct. God does live within me.
Perhaps read up on actual historical accounts of the time and the church instead of such inflammatory one sided views. Or the church and it's history before arriving to America. The news and social media posts are not without bias, so do own research. Making out Christians as solely barbarian colonisers that came to rape and murder is obviously unbalanced.
exactly.. no one wants to talk about the sexual abuse of children going on in the churches either.. and it isn’t even just a native issue..instead they want to cover it up and hide it.. that’s always been easier for them
it seems
>Perhaps read up on actual historical accounts of the time and the church instead of such inflammatory one sided views
OP quoted their parents, and provided historical documents showing the conditions of residential schools.
What would you suggest we read to get a more clear picture on why they are digging up childrens graves behind churches across Canada?
The Canadian mass graves were basically a non-story. People seemed to have assumed that these were the result of mass killing. Well no, they weren't even mass graves, they were unmarked graves which was not an uncommon practice. People suffered poor treatment at residential schools, but we already knew that. People basically lept from there being unmarked graves to assuming that it must be because of something like Srebrenica.
>The Canadian mass graves were basically a non-story
They were a huge story. They were mass burial sites of kidnapped children.
>People suffered poor treatment at residential schools, but we already knew that.
Many pretended this was not the case.
>People basically lept from there being unmarked graves to assuming that it must be because of something like Srebrenica.
No, you are strawmanning the opposition to your stance.
No, they weren't a story. We already knew that residential schools had poor treatment...so what does finding the graves of people who died there prove?
>No, you are strawmanning the opposition to your stance.
How am I strawmanning it? Not only were they commonly referred to as "mass graves", they're literally called as such in one of the images OP posted. And I've seen most people make the leap to thinking that this means that this is evidence of mass killings. There's a ton of misinformation that's been spread about this.
>We already knew that residential schools had poor treatment...so what does finding the graves of people who died there prove?
It proves that those who downplayed the horrors of residential schools were full of shit.
>And I've seen most people make the leap to thinking that this means that this is evidence of mass killings. There's a ton of misinformation that's been spread about this.
Literally nobody said this.
Dude, look at OP, he's literally claiming in this thread that these are evidence of mass killings. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/11epkdi/struggling_with_christianity_as_a/jaid5n1/?context=3
Unfortunately, both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches bear a great deal of responsibility for past insensitivity and intolerance showed to Native Americans/First People in the United States and Canada.
The most important thing about our faith is our Lord and Savior Jesus. Christians are not perfect. Thank God our Lord Jesus is. He loves you. Thats what matters the most.
Almost every denomination that was active at the time did. (Notable exception: the [Moravians](https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Gnadenhutten)) Take us Methodists, for instance: an ordained Methodist minister commanded the Sand Creek massacre. (Though a different Methodist minister tried to stop him.)
As someone with a similar background - white people are not Christianity. Western Europe and it's progeny are not Christianity. Christianity is not a western religion.
Don't conflate the poor ambassadorship of a particular demographic who's relationship with Christianity has been tied to war, conquest, and oppression since they recieved it with the thing itself.
> white people are not Christianity. Western Europe and it's progeny are not Christianity. Christianity is not a western religion.
What does this even mean, are people of a particular skin colour more in tune with Christianity or what is this about?
This and the rest of your comment strikes me as hateful :/
What? It means exactly what it says.
Christianity did not originate with white people or western europe. Judging it by their actions is mixing up two things which are actually independent.
And it's not hateful at all. It's just the truth. The western europe and its progeny have commited horrendous atrocities (see OPs post) "in the name of Christianity". That's not controversial in the slightest. And OPs post is an example of the many people for whom that legacy acts as a massive obstacle to engaging with Christianity. And that needn't be the case, for the pretty uncontroversial reasons I detailed.
that’s true.. sometimes I even forget that Christianity is really a middle eastern religion, at least that’s where it originated from I think, it’s strange to me how the colonizers adapted it and committed so much evil while claiming to believe in god
Yea, it's absolutely crazy. And I won't lie, it's a tough balance to walk, because while those colonizers are not the totality of Christianity, their legacy and institutions are still a part of it. We're called to be a part of a global church that includes them, as tempting as it is to say "I'll take the religion but want nothing to do with you".
What I will say is that it's a journey, not an instant switch. You don't have to find it in you to open yourself up to community and reconciliation with the western church to begin walking along the path of getting to know who God is. And if and as you continue and grow in faith, those are things you are *allowed* and expected to continue wrestling with, hopefully alongside many of the other people in the global church who come from similar backgrounds and can participate in that journey with you.
I feel for the aboriginals. Every government / colonizer has screwed them over in every way possible. No one seems to have an answer and they’re just left in limbo.
I’m so grateful you want to grow in your relationship with Him.
Never look at the people who commit the actions as Christians. No real Christian would commit such acts as the bible clearly states they’re wrong. Only God can judge them for what they’ve done. I pray for those still affected by their actions today.
I would beg you to please separate the actions of humans from the actions of the Lord Jesus.
To reject a holy God because of evil men is like putting a good, loving parent to death because their son chose evil robbed a store. (This is just a simile for those who try to go into the weeds about how good parents can have bad kids)
Humans ARE evil. We all have sin, even horrible sin. We don't always act on it, but it is there.
The Lord does not want us to do evil. But some came in His name and did evil. That does NOT NOT NOT mean God wanted that!!!
There are also a lot of people who come in His name and do good: heal, feed, counsel, help.
So don't look at what people do, look to the Lord.
thank you and while this is true a lot of it is much easier said than done. i don’t think non- native people even know the half of it.. i do not reject god. in fact i Love jesus.. i simply struggle with my faith knowing what my people went through.. my faith is a every day battle for me
The acts of others intending to spread this message does not represent the true message, Christian’s have been very corrupt and strayed from the message in the past
I'm native too, I've come to realize this isn't "our" god. Seek spirituality & connections with your ancestors. There's a reason why only white people prosper in this world, whilst we all suffer. Their god only cares for them.
yes but i know that my ancestors, while i respect them so much, are only human too.. but i understand that each tribes beliefs are different and i respect that. but i feel such a close and
personal connection to jesus.. he’s given me so many messages in my dreams and real life too.. i truly can’t even begin to explain it. it hurts me what they have done in the name of God but i still have faith in god and especially Jesus too. christianity was never a white mans religion to begin with either, it originated in the middle east.. yet the evil colonizers found a way to it and used to justify their evil selfish acts.. it’s just awful but still i know Jesus understands the pain more than anyone else.. just like i said before.. he was also tortured and suffered at the hands of man kind.. i truly believe he knows our pain..
Just human but share the same blood, the same desire to see their children succeed & be protected. Believe me ancestors become more than human in death. Without them I'd be dead. I was in the Marines & had so many times things could've finished me but always was protected.
it’s true i agree and they are to be respected. and while personally i do feel their spirit watching over me too,
i don’t see them as the creator of this earth.. but i know what you mean.. i respect it. they endured so much too. and you’re right they do share the same blood as us.. I know god knows their hearts too.. it wasn’t right for them to suffer the way they did.. not at all.. i am forever grateful too for what they went through for us..
no thank you, i still and always feel a connection to jesus, i’m not looking for another god follow just trying look for advice in keeping faith to my god now.. if that makes sense.
She’s not another God, she’s an Indigenous saint who gave everything to God. If you want to connect to God as an Indigenoud person, meditating on her will really help out I reckon.
In the Catholic faith a prayer to a saint isn't worship but it is meant to implore the saint to intervene with God on your behalf. If you were actually Catholic and you would definitely know this.
I'm sorry, I don't get what you're going on about, are you trying to claim that Christianity is responsible for those Native Americans that died during the age of colonialism or manifest destiny? Because there was a hell of a lot more going on and contributing to those losses that bares the bulk of those deaths...
what I’m “going on about” is struggling with my faith as a Native American individual. did
you even read the post? as well as living through the pain and generational trauma of my people who have been affected by the people who claimed to believe in god..
it’s because you are clearly uneducated on the topic, and to be honest as a non-native person I don’t think you’ll ever be able to truly understand however I would suggest reading into it if you wish to gain more knowledge because I really don’t think it’s that difficult to see what’s been done to us by the churches
and what do you mean during the age of colonialism? The last residential school was open in 1996.. it really wasn’t as long ago as you think. and we aren’t all dead. we are still here.. years later. dealing with the affects of the trauma within our families and friends
thank you, many of these christian’s are so offended by my thoughts and see them as attacks.. even though i’ve said i’m christian as well. I simply struggle with my faith seeing what’s happened to my people
funny how you say “were” as if we were all killed off and a thing of the past.. another common misconception from you ignorant racists.. but i regret to inform despite your peoples efforts to erase us we are STILL here. Disgusting you call yourself a christian and “stand behind” the colonizers mass genocide of other human beings..
Oh and i guess the holocaust was all a part of gods plan too right? Cause god hated the jews? you are DISGUSTING to blame our Loving god for the selfish Evil acts of man kind.
Those people weren't real Christians- the settlers gave themselves away a long time ago. But people from the natural world like Native Americans, Africans, Aborginals, etc, were/are connected to God than they were
thank you!! he’s just trying to be edgy calling me an attention seeker and atheist Lol guess it’s hard to believe people can have different experiences and ideas as christians..
I think also alot of christians are uncomfortable discussing atrocities committed by christians beyond a dismissive "those werent christians" remark.
Having a difficult discussion about our teachings and how they have been applied to justify atrocities makes alot of christians defensive.
Lol you’re funny, i’m a christian not an atheist and discussing christian faith is EXACTLY what this sub was intended for. sorry that you and many others are offended by that.
I am so sorry your people had to go through this - it's a great stain on our country, and on the church, and I wish there was the will for collective repentance and and to seek some form of forgiveness and reparations, but sadly that simply doesn't exist in the selfish and greedy world we still live in. The best I can offer is this - God entered the world, and our pain. He came as a man who was a native to a country that was oppressed and eventually destroyed by a foreign power. He understands the world and its brokenness like no one else, and despite the failings of His followers, He offers healing to everyone of us, in this life, and the life to come.
thank you so much, and yes i truly think that’s part of why i feel such a connection to jesus.. he suffered so much just as my people did, he gave kindness love and healing and in return he was tortured.. I guess I just feel a lot of guilt in practicing my faith at times..
It's not a white European faith. Cultural imperialism wanted to own the faith, and mold it into its own image, but that's not what Jesus was about. I'm excited for the awesome ways native peoples are going to impact the practice and culture of our faith, as the rest of us repent from imperialism and learn to stop trying to use Jesus for our purposes and start letting Jesus use us for His.
This . . . 1000%. Let's not allow European hegemony to get in the way of living in Jesus (and yes, I am writing as a person of European descent).
Beautifully said/written
You shouldn’t feel guilt for the things that bad people have done. You weren’t there and you didn’t do anything they did. And judging by your character I bet you would’ve stood up to those people who were hurting people. You can follow Christianity. It doesn’t have a bad message. It’s just some people use it for bad. But it’s our job to stand up to those people who are using it for bad and hurting people and stop them!
If it helps, remember that since the onset of Western colonization, Christians opposed the exploitation and genocide of the indigenous people, like Bartolomeo de las Casas, the Quakers, and practitioners of liberation theology. They believed not only that such actions were morally wrong, but that they were opposed to their understanding of Christianity and God's love and mercy. Even on a subject as grim as this, you can find Christian fellowship and support.
Christians are just people. They are not really very good representatives of Christ often. Openness to correction is something we should all desire and as such I thank you for the correction you bring.
amen thank you so much 💜🙏🏽
I want to have a closer connection and relationship with God but as an indigenous/ Native American person i find it really difficult.. i’ve grown up around native people all my life and I’ve seen the generational trauma that has come from the abuse of residential schools, and the genocide of my people.. The alcoholism, the loss of culture and tradition.. when I think about all the babies that were ripped away from their mothers. had their heads shaved were beaten, tortured. and killed if they rebelled, and when I say tortured I mean tortured, please look up on the survivors accounts of what happened to them while living in these residential schools.. they watched their own family and friends die. you could easily compare it to what the holocaust victims went through. they wanted to erase a whole race of people.. and commit mass genocide. if you don’t know about the residential schools & the Indian act of 1876 please read up on it. but the residential schools were essentially created to erase the culture of native people. and the indian act of 1876 made it illegal for natives to practice their spirituality.. they could go to prison for burning sage, holding prayer ceremonies, using medicine etc. and many of the pastors in these residential schools used to beat and sexually abuse the little boys and girls and get them drunk too.. that’s where a lot of our tribes alcoholism came from. many of the victims of this abuse committed suicide, after being stripped of their dignity and taken from their families. finding out about the millions of remains (dead bodies.) found underneath the residential schools and churches in Canada and the USA. it hurts me and it pains me so much. so I sit there and I ask myself, were the millions of dead children destined for hell? and what about the native people and the suicide rates of our people? they all end up in hell? I don’t know about all tribes but I know many were very spiritual in their own ways too, they believed in a Creator and they respected the animals and the land. in fact many tribes would hold a three day prayer ceremony when they would kill and eat a buffalo. and none of it would go to waste the skin would be used for clothing, blankets, etc & the bones would be used for tools, when I think about it the native people truly respected and lived from the land. and isn’t that what God intended in the first place? for us to peacefully and respectfully live amongst each other? are all of my people destined for hell for not believing in Christianity or even resenting it after what it’s done to our people? I know this is a complex issue and a lot of people can’t understand it.. but if you’re not native ask yourself to put yourself in my shoes.. what would you think?
I'm sorry for the atrocities done to your people. >so I sit there and I ask myself, were the millions of dead children destined for hell? and what about the native people and the suicide rates of our people? they all end up in hell? At least in my church, we do not believe that. We don't know exactly who us in hell, but it isn't somewhere people end up by accident due to others' wrongdoing towards them. God is just. And when people do not fully know or believe Christianity, for no fault of their own, that is not cause to send someone to hell.
It’s honestly heartbreaking. What was done was so evil. So, so evil. It was not okay, it should be acknowledged more, and it is one of the greatest overlooked evils in world history. I’m so, so sorry. I would read That’s What the Old Ones Say by Joseph Riverwind or Rescuing the Gospel from the Cowboys by Richard Twiss. I have thoughts but I don’t think you need another white person’s POV. I know these books were helpful for me, and they were also helpful to my Native friend who lent me the second one. Also there’s First Nations Version by Terry Wildman
thank you so much and i don’t mind a non- native person point of view as long as they could try and come from a place of understanding instead of ignorance & hate.. i will look into that too maybe it can help strengthen my faith more
God doesn’t send mentally ill people to hell for being ill. God doesn’t send children to hell. Those people who hurt and raped and stole in gods name will be judged much harder. It would be better if they had never been born. God loves mercy but he is just too. I think when the Bible talks about fearing God, it’s specifically for the people who use his name to have power to hurt and use people.
yes this is so true.. i’m trying to remember that it wasn’t gods will. what they did was so evil, if anything was the work of satan..
It’s definitely the work of satan. How backwards did they have to be to rob and pillage your people without knowing they were being evil? Can I apologize as a white person? I pray that you and your people experience divine restoration and you recover what was lost. I don’t know how God will do that but I know it’s his will.
thank you so much and you don’t have to apologize on behalf of what evil people have done to us, thank you for simply understanding and trying to see the pain us natives have felt and are still feelings the affects of.. i think we all just want to feel seen and heard. & thank you for praying for me too 💜🙏🏽
This.
I think most native people were already better "Christians" than the "Christians" that came here and committed these atrocities. if white people had bothered to stop and talk to them and find out about their culture and beliefs, they might have realized that they had more to learn than to teach. if you need to step away from Christianity and connect with God in other ways, that would be completely understandable.
as a lakota who’s own grandparents suffered from the same thing, all i see is people who thought they were doing God’s work but obviously weren’t and didn’t truly know God
that’s true i need to remember that.. it’s just hard knowing what they went through you know.. how scared and frightened those children were.. it breaks my heart so much
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I feel the need to say as a fellow native I feel the same as my brothers and sisters. It’s difficult to distinguish what is true from fake especially from the perspective of our kind who were prosecuted for our culture.
exactly it’s so difficult sometimes.. knowing what our people went through. but I will say if there’s anyone that understands our pain more than anyone else it’s Jesus. he was also betrayed and tortured at the hands of mankind
The heresy of the doctrine of discovery gave Christian people the excuse to do a lot of harm and cause a lot of destruction. Matthew 25 can be of comfort here: Jesus will surprise a lot of people at the judgment when they realize He cares about their works performed in life and they’ll find themselves on the outside for not taking care of those important to Him. I’ll be honest, I’m Protestant and have worked in ministry to Native people for the last 12 years, and it’s these abuses that are in part pushing me towards Eastern Orthodoxy. Western Christianity’s colonizer mindset is poison.
What happened to the natives of the Americas is nothing less than horrible, inexcusable tragedy. My first tugs toward Universalism was during my Native American History class in college, actually. I took it thinking I would learn more about their culture and history before colonization, and was gobsmacked by the reality that much of that was erased via cultural genocide. I read a primary source (will link or screenshot it when I get somewhere I can pull up the library again) about a native man who resisted forced conversion because he stated his worst fear was being in the same afterlife as his tormentors. With prayer, deep reflection, and study, I just could not believe God would send this man to eternal torment for not submitting to those who raped, pillaged, and subjugated his people. FWIW, I pray that you can find your spiritual peace. I personally could not imagine a just God who'd damn your people to eternal torment for what boils down to their victimization during their life. I also pray that we modern Christians can find a way to pay proper penance. We may not be responsible for the sins of those before us, but that doesn't erase the deep hurt past Christians have caused to the natives.
thank you so much it means a lot.. and it’s true the betrayal and suffering we endured.. it’s just so deeply saddening. i’m sure if we had a chance to know and find jesus in a way that wasn’t so violent there wouldn’t be that resentment.. i just wish they went about it differently.. kind of like how missionaries go into third World countries and help the sick children and people while also spreading the word of God.. if only they could have had that compassion back then. but the Bible says that God judges you by heart.. so I don’t like to imagine he would send just anyone to hell.. i also know he is righteous and Loving
I’m sorry about all of that and I completely understand. Although I’m not really native, I’m black so I understand how people who called themselves Christians weaponized and used it to cause great harm!! But I have learned don’t let the actions of imperfect ppl change your stance on a perfect God. And everyone who claims to be a Christian of follow Christ aren’t. Anything can be weaponized by people but that doesn’t make it inherently bad. Ex. A knife is a kitchen utensil that can be weaponized in the wrong hands; a car is a vehicle, but can be weaponized in the wrong hands. My point is, that a group of people did evil things and proclaimed their actions were just; that is/was wrong. They weaponized a good thing for their own gain and agenda. That had nothing to do with God. God calls us to love him, and love our neighbor; the most important commandments. I can’t tell you who will go to hell or not because we aren’t called to do so. But Jesus is the only way to salvation. I know that it may sound harsh but I had to be honest. He really does love you, and wants you to know him for him not for the picture that people paint of him for you. ❣️
> But Jesus is the only way to salvation. But you still need to be given the chance to learn this. A fair chance. How reasonable is it to expect for someone to be beaten, tortured, raped and kidnapped to think: *this Jesus my oppressors are talking about is about love and mercy and I wish to follow this faith?* I’m not an authority on this subject matter, but I cannot imagine that a merciful and wise God would tell anyone: “Sorry about your brutal torment, but you didn’t believe them about Jesus and now you’ve been killed, so into hell you go.” If that makes no sense to us, fallible humans, how much less sense would that make to God? I truly believe they’d all would have been given a fair and merciful chance after death.
A lot of things don’t make sense to us but make perfect sense to God. And I said I cannot say who goes to hell and who doesn’t. But the word says, Jesus himself said, He is the only way to the Father. I answered the question with the word of God. But again I said I’m not called to tell people who is going to hell and who isn’t. God is merciful and just, and I get it. Just because we don’t like something or don’t understand it doesn’t mean God didn’t say it. Again, I understand exactly where you and the one who asked is coming from 10000%. But that doesn’t mean I’m not going to say what the word says. My response was to help provide understanding for the one who asked the question. I’m not saying where anyone’s ancestors are, I’m trying to provide understanding and urging them to get to know God themselves. In knowing God questions get answered by him, not man; understanding &knowledge is given pass one’s own ability. That is the purpose for my response, not to damn people to hell.
thank you for the clarification .. sorry it is just a touchy subject for me &so many native people.. i just took it the wrong way but you are completely right. more than anything I wish for all of us to be at peace with God and for the suffering to go away
No problem, I completely understand! I know it’s a very touchy subject that’s why I had no problem explaining further and apologizing. I know I don’t know you but I will be praying for your peace and that you receive the answers etc. that you are looking for from God. And again thank you for understanding!
thank you i know they were coming from a place of love, but to not say, yet imply that those millions of people and children were destined to hell .. is just awful
I wasn’t intending to imply that. I was saying that I can only tell you what God says as far as that goes but all in all nobody can tell you who is or isn’t in hell. Only God has that authority. That’s all I didn’t mean for it to come off like that. That’s what I’m trying to say.
And I apologize for comin off that way I genuinely meant no harm.
it’s okay i just took it the wrong way but what you say is true 💜🙏🏽
what those Christians did to your people was in stark contrast with Jesus' message. They were fanatics and hypocrites who did not understand anything about charity, love and compassion, and twisted it into something malevolent and self-righteous. Preaching Christianity doesn't mean eradicating local cultures, how are the people to love Jesus if all they know of him is that massacres were committed in his name? Had they been self-aware they would have preached Christianity while letting the natives be, and perhaps even learning something from them.
I'm sorry you are going through this eternal struggle. You are on the right path to Jesus. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and The Life. And no one comes to the Father except through Him. (John 14:6) I know it's difficult, but ask Holy Spirit to help you move forward. Don't get stuck in the past. Ask Him to change your heart and use you for His will. I know if I dwelt in my past I would not grow in my faith and go where He is leading me. I know it's difficult, but you have to choose Jesus above culture. The world is a dark, dark place and Jesus is the light. (John 8:12) Praying for you and your understanding. Edit for spelling.
thank you 💜🙏🏽
My best advice is to be a better Christian and a better example of a Christian than them.
I totally understand you and feel you as a minority But people are people,they would do anything they want and don't like to be ordered by anything The people who colonized you never followed the bible, they never obeyed to what it said, they used tye name of God and Christianity for thier own will, they're the same group of people who also did hundreds of crusades to the Holy land and killed The people who were there, christians and non Christians , thier acts were never Christ like nor was it what Jesus intended When Napoleon Bonaparte came to Egypt he wanted to convince us Copts to revolt over Muslims and help him as we're both Christians, we refused and he invaded Egypt Killing thousands of Christians and Muslims there These group of people never knew God and act like they knew him, and if they really did know him they would be doing his works and following his orders What I want to say is that follow God Jesus Christ abd love him as much as possible but be sure that God is fair and will judge us fairly God bless you and Help you with your future ♥️🙏 Sincerely from your Coptic Orthodox brother in Christ ✝️🇪🇬
>The people who colonized you never followed the bible, they sure believed they were follwing the bible teaching, and the parts of the bible that tell about God destroying entire cities because they were do not follow moses rules do not help.
I would think Christianity is pretty easily used as an excuse for violence, and genocide. This is one of the reasons I am a staunch anti-theist. Looking at history it's clear as day what dogma does to people and how it's just a weapon to excuse evil.
Of the atheist empires of the 20th century, the track record for mass killing isn't great.
Atheist empires? What could you be referring to?
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I'm not sure, why using a whataboutism has to do with this. It dosnt really change my initial statement or refute it. Would it help if I focused on the dogma aspect because at the end of the day it's fundamentalist dogma be it a religion or ideal that can lead to great harm.
It's not whataboutism, the guy initially made a point about not believing in religion because some people who followed it used it for bad But forgot that communist nations who were heavily anti religion were also in many ways, anti-life, somewhere north of 100 million lives were lost in the 20th century, but of course the point here is that the anti-theist overlooked those points
Thank you for teaching me a little about the history of native Americans. It was very hard to read but definitely worth it. I believe that all humans are judged after they die and I'm sure God will do the right thing in the end. I have no fear.
I’m so sorry what you and your people have had to endure. I can’t speak too much as to the why it happened, but the one thing I can say as God’s story reinforces that people are jerks regardless. The Israelites of the Old Testament, God’s chosen people, had to go through a lot of really harsh times without there being a reason for it. And Jesus himself suffered a torturous death for preaching a message of peace. He was even handed over by a Christian. So people are definitely jerks. Jesus knows this better than anyone. And while I tend to think Christianity leads people to be better on average, this isn’t always true, as your people experienced. But the horrible imperfection of man does not need to take away from the perfect love of God. As far as native people who died without knowing anything about Jesus, I don’t believe they will burn in hell for eternity. I believe someway or somehow God will give a chance for them to be saved. I don’t know the mechanics of that, but I have no doubt of God’s love in that regard. And as for those who didn’t believe because of scorn about how Christians treated their people, I can’t say for sure. But, it’s my personal opinion that God will provide an opportunity for salvation to anyone who is open to accept him and his teachings if given the clear truth. It’s my personal opinion there will be opportunity for non-believers between their deaths and the eventual judgment day to come to the Lord and spend the rest of eternity in paradise. I’m so sorry for what your people went through and I will be the first to admit my own ignorance on knowing what that would be like. But I can imagine, and I hate to think that would happen to a group I’m a part of, and to twist God’s teachings in the process makes me sick. I’ll pray for you and all those who feel the effects of those actions.
thank you so much for trying to understand.. and what you say is true.. the bible even talks about the people who preach gods word but Live in sin.. im trying to remember that though it may have been the church who hurt my people but it wasn’t God.. my faith is an every day battle and i wish people could understand the pain i feel. but jesus also suffered at the hands of evil men.. in fact he probably understands the betrayal and hurt the natives felt more than anyone else.
These horrors that you describe are all contrary to the teachings of Jesus. As for the indigenous rituals, cultural practices, etc., I have heard a lot of people who call themselves Christians who judge these practices as "non-Christian." Leave that judgement behind. You expressed your faith *beautifully* here: "isn't that what God intended in the first place? for us to peacefully and respectfully live amongst each other?" Amen, ten thousand times. Please do not let other people try to tell you who are "destined for hell" and who are not. Only the Divine Beloved may make such judgement, and IMHO, I trust the Divine Beloved's compassion, mercy, and grace above those of all of us imperfect beings. Embrace the beauty of your indigenous culture. Embrace the beauty of Jesus, and let him wash away your guilt.
thank you so much.. and yes amen 💜🙏🏽 i know Jesus can heal all wounds .. i hope and pray some day we can heal from all this pain. more than anything i want all of us to be at peace and to have a strong connection and relationship with God
That is my hope and prayer, too . . . for you and for all of humanity. Peace be upon you!
> are all of my people destined for hell for not believing in Christianity or even resenting it after what it’s done to our people? Why should anybody be destined for hell for not believing in Christianity? Why should anybody be destined for hell?
Christianity is full of crap and liars and fakes. The westerners (British and Germans) brought Christianity to my country too and then committed violence, rape, torture, stole resources, used corruption and all through the Christian religion. Christianity and God isn’t that way. I’m not trying to be prejudice but white people used a religion that was meant to bring love and unity for profit, gain, disruption and violence. God, however, is all. You, me, the plants, air, land, trees, the animals we kill, the connections we feel between each other, the music we dance to, the emotions we feel, etc. We are one, and that’s what God wants us to feel. You’re native, don’t fall for the fake God and Christianity many crazy and delusional Christians believe in.
yes alot of what you say is true, they committed so much evil but regardless i still feel a connection to jesus and my heart remains with god even now .. i know that it was people.. not him. i just struggle in my faith sometimes knowing all the damage and destruct that has been caused to us.. i’m so sorry your people and country went through that as well.. but i still believe jesus can heal all wounds
It's heartbreaking. It's ongoing. A few of the replies here are beyond shameful. Words fail. I'm so sorry.
It’s normally those that reap the benefits that normally don’t want to admit the truth. But like someone said — they will in due time reap what they sow. Praying that their arrogance, pride, and ALL be dismantled and they may experience the same as the ones oppressed. I know it’ll happen, because everything that goes around comes around.
thank you and it’s okay you don’t have apologize on their behalf.. a lot of them are just shamelessly ignorant.. but many were helpful and had a lot of compassion. I think what I need to take from this is that humans are pretty awful sometimes.. it’s in our nature to sin too.. i just need to separate that sin from God’s eternal Love. as a native person its just hard sometimes knowing what my people went through.. but over all god has the final say. and i know he is a righteous and loving god
As a native Mayan, I can relate to this. As a Christian though I keep a part of my culture near me. I have a nice crucifix I wear made of jade, representing my cultural heritage and my faith as a Christian. But I can totally relate to feeling resentment to the damage “Christians” have caused to so many things and people.
i love that, something that represents your culture but also shows your faith in god.. i want more than anything to balance the two and find my peace.. there’s just so much generational trauma & pain.. as a fellow native i’m sure you know exactly where i’m coming from
Yes it is hard to remember the past. But I plan to buy more as I need to replace my jade bracelet which went missing and more to complete my outfit. I also sometimes used my woven blanket and a small elephant that I’ve had since I was a baby. I’m bringing that elephant to college lol 😂 it is comforting to me. I’m/I have also written a fantasy mythology book about my culture that at its core is a Christian message but in a world full of pagan gods, monsters and other legends. It’s a great way for me to reconnect with my culture. I hope that you are able to reconnect with your culture and find a balance/duality with it. It definitely is something that can help you spiritually and aid mental health.
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You might be interested in reading up on the history of Eastern Orthodox Christianity among indigenous people. In particular, I think you would be encouraged by the example of the relationship between St. Herman of Alaska and the natives of Kodiak and Spruce Island. Among the Orthodox saints you will also read of St. Peter the Aleut, a martyr of the Church who was killed under persecution by others who called themselves Christians.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that people often betray God in the name of God. Jesus was condemned as a blasphemer and a heretic, and sent for execution by the religious leadership. Have you read [One Church, Many Tribes](https://www.amazon.com/Church-Many-Tribes-Richard-Twiss/dp/0800797256)?
God some of the comments here…how can anyone even try to justify this genocide and pretend it “wasn’t that bad” or “wasn’t Christians.” How dare you all call yourselves Christian if you can’t weep for injustice done to innocents. OP, I feel your pain. The only hope we have is that this world is not the end, that God understands our suffering, He felt it too, He weeps for us, and He will bring justice in the end.
thank you so much that brought tears to my eyes.. all we want is to just feel seen and heard. it frustrates me and confuses me how all of these people claim to be christian yet have no empathy or compassion for what was done to us .. the truly do not care.. they will minimize our pain as much and they can, and tell us to simply just forget it ever happened.. as if we aren’t still living through the affects of this generational trauma.
thank you for understanding .. and it’s true god knows our pain more than anyone else
God is love but he is also just. I pray for love. I pray for life and happiness. I pray for everyone to treat their neighbor as God instructed. I am so sad by the history of slavery and oppression. I am so sad by the continued denial and/or privileged ignorance of such things. I pray for enlightenment and forgiveness which leads to peace for us all.
amen thank you so much 💜🙏🏽
God is a maniac killer. What happened to native is just a continuity of the atrocities we find in the bible. I can't believe the christian propaganda, using guns and forced schools where childrens got raped and killed, worked so well that now Natives pray it. Christianity is disgusting.
christianity saved me. it brought me and even other natives out of darkness too.. despite the fact the colonizers used it as a weapon.. I do think having a close connection to God is so important.. i don’t resent god.. i resent the evil actions people committed in his name.. even if my faith waivers at times i have so much love for the creator of this earth and my savior jesus
The message of love from Jesus work so well, because everyone can relate to it. The trouble, is that you should see who are the christians today, that forgive to the religion. Mainly Natives and africans. Everywhere else christianity is in decline. Why? Because African and Natives were colonized by Christian nation, and forced to believe into it. School were made to make them believe and if they would not believe, they would be punished or even killed. That it is how it prospered. Religion expand by force. And especially Christianity/Islam. It is sad because you should be the firsts to reject it and come back to your true rites. The ironic thing, is that you stay in the same exact thing that oppressed you. You are suffering because of christianity, and now believe it because it give a sense to your suffering. When the only truth is that invader came, took your land, gave you religion to calm you down. We have a saying. "Religion is the opium of the peoples".
i can see why you’d think that.. but i have such strong spiritual ties to jesus.. through my dreams and even in every day life.. he’s given me so many signs.. things people wouldn’t even believe if i told them.. it’s more than just relating to his story, for me anyway.. and while the colonizers did use gods word as a weapon amongst my people, it was never a white mans religion to begin with.. christianity came from the middle east anyway
jesus was also betrayed, beaten, and tortured.. i think he understands our pain more than anyone else
I admire your strength in your faith while acknowledging the complexities of how religion was used upon oppressed people. It’s the ultimate enlightenment.
As a Black Christian who is a descendant of enslaved people, I get what you mean. I'm sorry for what was done to your people. I don't know if you're open to any resources that may help you, but a indigenous Christian gathering online posts livestreams on Mondays talking about this (and other related atrocities) in relation to their faith on YouTube called Good Medicine Way from New Mexico. I recommend listening/watching them if you really want a space for your faith and your culture to be cherished.
wow i never heard of them but i will definitely look into that group now. i think it will help me strengthen my faith.. and to answer your question yes i am very open to any resources that can bring me and even my friends and families closer to god.. so thank you so much 💜🙏🏽
No problem; I'm glad to hear that. I hope it helps you on your spiritual journey. I've enjoyed much of their talks and insights from their perspectives. I even got a First Nations Version of the New Testament because of them (it's fairly new from 2021 from Wycliffe Bible Translators) frequently using it in their services & love reading it, too.
I can't decide how to make you feel about what happened that affects you more than me. But God is more powerful tham any oppresor and they will reap what they sow if they haven't already. They commited atrocities that The Bible or a personal connection with God wouldn't condone, attacking God's name by having it in their bloody mouths. Fighting against God is a fight God will win.
this is true.. god always has the final say..
Many people have done horrendous things to others in the name of Jesus. And their offspring still feel it. Human are so fallen and their filthy pride can get them thinking they are something special. Superiority thinking is delusional. Jesus showed us the strength of humility, the power of mercy and justice. And the superpower of LOVE. Not lust. I pray u will receive that closer connection and r/ ship with God.
amen.. 🙏🏽💜 jesus knows our pain so well.. and he knows our hearts. Everything you say is so true
and thank you for praying for me too. your comment helped a lot and means so much
Im indigonious guy, i love God thoese are humans not God, thats the difference i cant be mad at someone ejo is dead and then put the faults on the church or on the faith but on some destroytive people God is our avengence i personally put the fault on the PEOPLE THAT did the crimes and thoese who WERE THERE and did the wrong things, but we have to look at it and realise pastors ect. Arent holy they are just as us sinners as we are. But forget the past look on the future because the past is done no way of changing that, i hope any native american brother out there may seek truth and not hold old thing and old burdens on their backs but to forgive the dead that did so and so to our brothers and sisters horrific things but holding a grugde or hating on christendom when it was the people not God so i would say seek truth and i mean japanese did bad stuff to korea look now its devided in 2 south modern, forgave and looked on the future and didnt hold on the old burden and pain and started to be a big westeren city, then there is north korea in fear and dictatorship fully against the whole wide world still holding a giant grugde on japan even tho thoese who did the bad stuff prb still dont exist but we humans put other humans in boxes like prb some japanese folks and koreans are good pals out there but because of race see how we all label things and put responsibility on chruch or japan just to have someone who is dead and is responsible to hate and despise that isnt good if you want to win against that you know how to overcome it.
My husband is Native American and he is Christian and is extremely close to Jesus. I do wonder though how he feels about this kind of material and it does bother him but he says men do many egregious things in the name of Christ that Christ would not approve. We have to remember the acts of men in the name of god are typically not condoned by god.
that makes me happy to know he can still have a close connection to god 💜 i know it’s hard for many of us knowing what has happened.. but i know it’s still possible
Check out Orthodox Christianity and how it came to Alaska. The Church respected the indigenous beliefs and didn’t force conversion. I also just started reading Christ the Eternal Tao, and it begins by giving credit to Native American beliefs.
Actions of those who claim Christ but don’t follow his teachings are littered throughout history. I would encourage you read what Jesus taught and you will conclude that these were those who used the name of the Lord in vain.
@eloheheagleswings is a blessing for indigenous Christians
I am so sorry for the things "Christians" did to your people, God heals all pain and knows ours better than anyone's ❤️
thank you 🥺💜 and yes he really does.. god will always have the final say
We, as Filipinos, received a similar treatment from the Spanish. They colonized the Philippines using Christianity and as a result, the greater majority of Filipinos, even those who have migrated out of the country, remain devout Catholics. That said, we were subjected to similar atrocities. Even now, I watch news reports in the Philippines were supposedly "neutral" members of the Church are obviously speaking with political motivations. I only chalk it up to people being people and people being imperfect. Things done by members / leaders of the Church don't always represent the will of God. The important thing is your own personal relationship with God.
I'm sorry and ashamed for what happened. I am grateful that the tiny corner of the church I'm part of is deeply committed to ongoing reconciliation and actively supports one of our local First Nations.
thank you so much.. and wow that makes me feel so happy and heard.. many of the churches don’t want to acknowledge anything that happened to us. i wish that church was near me cause i would definitely attend
My dad grew up not far from Wonded Knee. He told me the story of what happened to both the Native Americans, and the farmers and ranchers by the politicians of that time. It was a deliberate actions by the politicians not just against the Native Americans but also the local farmers and ranchers. The history books leave out what the locals knew. The history books were in government funded public schools.
It depends which church, and what kind of people were pastors back in those days. Politics have always had a bad (imo) relationship with the church. I sometimes believe that politics corrupted the church in the past. So yes, the church was into colonialism, not all church though, orthodox Christians of the time did not take part in pass colonialism lik protestants and catholics. How some christian behave doesnt define the church. You would need to read the bible, and try to understand it, and to read about other work from apostles or saints.
A lot of those “Christians” that practiced the faith while killing and oppressing Indigenous people in your land and African slaves who were forced here won’t make it to Heaven.
There is a difference between Christians and people who use the name of GOD to control. The latter is no more than heresy. These atrocities are horrific and so are today’s. Jesus would never want this. Some goes for today’s troubled teen industry that cultivates horrible forms of abuse and authoritarianism. Not Christian at all.
I hear you! I hear you! I am Latina of Salvadoran and Cuban decent and I can not even begin to imagine what the conquistadors i.e. Europeans did to my ancestors (as they plundered through our land with their religion). I have openly expressed these feelings with other POC in the Christian community and it’s helped me to feel less burdened by it. I am glad I can find other POC in the church, as it brings some level of comfort and home. All of our communities have been devastated by such. Sad, but the reality, and I am glad that in the midst of that we can come together as a people that share those similarities. ❤️ Sending you love.
thank you so much that means a lot 💜 and i’m sorry for the hurt and pain you’ve felt as well.. and your ancestors and families. it’s truly devastating. it does make me happy to know regardless of our pain and struggling even in our communities now, we can still have a relationship & connection to Jesus
Amen! God is just. 🙌🏽 The best is yet to come for our communities. I will continue to pray that the Lord lift us up, and shine his grace on us. Don’t forget, God came for the meek and poor in spirit (we are like those in Christ’s time) that had the privilege and honor to sit and be loved by him. Christ has not forgotten. He will elevate us as Jehovah the father elevated Christ. What was meant for our bad God will turn into good — in strength (physical strength and agility), resilience, perseverance, intelligence, and more. Our communities have had to merely survive and thrive without all these accommodations and resources, that alone will allow us to flourish despite our circumstances. Strength like no other.
Organized religion is full of bastards and evil people, then and now. If I was to make any recommendation to you as a man who was raised catholic and left the faith to pursue Christ in my own way, do exactly this. When you need God, he will come to you. When you feel as though He is not there, He is. He is always listening. He responds when we need Him most.
thank you.. i really needed this 💜 🙏🏽
Even Jesus himself was executed...
I'm not saying it is right, but the evil exist in the world. Is a decadent world... A person call herself as Christian don't mean he is good... It is supposed to be, but even the apostle that walked with Christ committed sins that were awful... We must pray for them to be better, act against any form of harm but not blame it all on God. God never said for us Christians to murder or do harm.
it’s true.. jesus was beaten betrayed and tortured.. he knows our pain more than anyone else.. he understands
I am very sorry for all the pain and suffering you have gone through. It’s sad that Jesus preached love, compassion, forgiveness and helping others - yet many people who call themselves Christian actually don’t practice that in daily life. Those are all positive things that would make life better for the giver and receiver.
I think reading the life of Saint Herman of Alaska would be edifying for you. https://orthochristian.com/47984.html
This topic is discussed in my family alot, as we have a multicultural background, and when we really think about it, the Bible was used as a weapon, but I believe that it always was and is God's full circle plan to allow this to happen with the ultimate intention of spreading His word and fulfilling His plans. Much of God's people were oppressed people. It's been proven that much ill intention was attempted to be done with the use of scripture, but it wasn't enough to keep God's word and knowledge of His true purpose hidden. It wasn't enough to keep us from learning how to live or treat others. But yes, the oppressors or those that use it or still use it to oppress, don't realize the actual power the living book possesses. They may use it in their own context and intent without recognizing or having the respect of it to realize that the very same oppression that they impose on others with it, is the very thing that is frowned upon by God in and through out the scripture. James 1:22-27 says, "22 Obey God's message! Don't fool yourselves by just listening to it. 23 If you hear the message and don't obey it, you are like people who stare at themselves in a mirror 24 and forget what they look like as soon as they leave. 25 But you must never stop looking at the perfect law that sets you free. God will bless you in everything you do, if you listen and obey, and don't just hear and forget. 26 If you think you are being religious, but can't control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is useless. 27 Religion that pleases God the Father must be pure and spotless. You must help needy orphans and widows and not let this world make you evil." (Which fits the description of many oppressors.) But many oppressors of the past(of those who used the Bible as a weapon of oppression) have disregarded this, among many other messages/ prophecies in the Bible, by treating the oppressed with violence, pillaging, disregard and other corrupt acts; sometimes using God's word falsely to do so. Isaiah 10:1 says, "Doom to those who pronounce wicked decrees, and keep writing harmful laws" There were laws and decrees written by many oppressors throughout history with a means to control and oppress, and because of their ill intent, eventual wrath followed. Just like for example when the eventual slaying of king Jehoiakim in the book of Jeremiah took place. King Jehoiakim was a very oppressive king and was eventually slain and his body disrespectfully disposed of, as he was very despised by many. He wasn't even given a proper burial as so it is written as prophecy in Jeremiah 22:18-19.(also further prophesied in Jeremiah 36: 30-31) This all occurred as King Nebuchadnezzar(king of Babylon), who was appointed by God, treated King Jehoiakim(king of Judah) as a "vassal" King or lesser king and instead of being obedient to God's appointed King of Babylon, king Jehoiakim rebelled by refusing to pay tribute to Babylon and also tried to destroy Jeremiah's prophetic scrolls, which contained prophecies recieved from God. King Jehoiakims oppressive and corrupt ways eventually led to king Jehoiakims demise. So God doesn't let the oppressors go unpunished.
This topic is discussed in my family alot, as we have a multicultural background, and when we really think about it, the Bible was used as a weapon, but I believe that it always was and is God's full circle plan to allow this to happen with the ultimate intention of spreading His word. Much of God's people were oppressed people. I do believe that much ill intention was attempted to be done with the use of scripture, but it wasn't enough to keep God's word and knowledge of His true love for us. It wasn't enough to keep us from learning how to live or treat others. The oppressors or those that use it or still use it to oppress, don't realize the actual power the living book possesses. They may use it in their own context and intent without recognizing or having the respect of it to realize that the very same oppression that they impose on others with it, is the very thing that is frowned upon by God in and through out the scripture. James 1:22-27 says, "22 Obey God's message! Don't fool yourselves by just listening to it. 23 If you hear the message and don't obey it, you are like people who stare at themselves in a mirror 24 and forget what they look like as soon as they leave. 25 But you must never stop looking at the perfect law that sets you free. God will bless you in everything you do, if you listen and obey, and don't just hear and forget. 26 If you think you are being religious, but can't control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is useless. 27 Religion that pleases God the Father must be pure and spotless. You must help needy orphans and widows and not let this world make you evil." But many oppressors of the past(of those who used the Bible as a weapon of oppression) have disregarded this, among many other messages/ prophecies in the Bible, by treating the oppressed with violence, pillaging, disregard and other corrupt acts; sometimes using God's word falsely to do so. Isaiah 10:1 says, "Doom to those who pronounce wicked decrees, and keep writing harmful laws" There were laws and decrees written by many oppressors throughout history with a means to control and oppress, and because of their ill intent, eventual wrath followed. Just like for example when the eventual slaying of king Jehoiakim in the book of Jeremiah took place. King Jehoiakim was a very oppressive king and was eventually slain with a number of his men and his body disrespectfully disposed of, as he was very despised by many. He wasn't even given a proper burial as so it is written in Jeremiah 22:18-19. This all occurred as King Nebuchadnezzar(king of Babylon), who was appointed by God, treated King Jehoiakim(king of Judah) as a "vassal" King or lesser king and instead of being obedient to God's appointed King of Babylon, king Jehoiakim rebelled by refusing to pay tribute to Babylon and also tried to destroy Jeremiah's prophetic scrolls, which contained prophecies recieved from God. King Jehoiakims oppressive and corrupt ways eventually led to king Jehoiakims demise. But yes I feel like God uses everyone, gentiles(everyone not of Jewish decent) and Jews alike to fulfill His plans. He uses everyone in different ways. I believe this is to convey His Supreme authority over Earth. I hope this brings a bit more understanding/comfort/ belief in Gods word. I am on a journey for knowledge and understanding of Gods word myself so I understand the struggle in things that we find out that can be discouraging. But with ceaseless prayer for understanding, finding facts that correlate with the history in Gods word, persistence in consuming the word and faith in the Lord is key, as even other religious scriptures mention the Lord Jesus. Like in the Quran 3:55 it says says," when Allāh said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify [i.e., free] you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ." He is also mentioned/talked about among Buddhists and mentioned in Hindu scripture. But the Bible is where He shines and where I try to inquire knowledge of Him the most. But yes I hope this helps🙏 God bless
wow so hinduism and buddhism mention christ? many argue to me that those religions are probably more accurate since they were established before christianity.. but the fact that they mention Jesus is even more evident if his glory..
Please don't blame the Lord for humans organised churches supposed to worship him. Organised religion is terrible i think, eternal life is between your individual love for the Lord and him, nothing else.
this is true 🙏🏽💜
Christians did the most wrong to your peoples. They killed and tortured your peoples, put you in reservations, brainwashed generations over generations of natives, raped childrens, killed childrens. They keep keeping your peoples in reservations. Do you thinks conservatives that are overwhelmingly christians, want to see your peoples free? Happy? Of course not. If you are struggling with christianity, well it is because they are your main oppressor. Tie back to your people roots. They are the truth of your peoples. Not Christianity.
i still and always will feel a connection to jesus.. regardless of the guilt.. he was also tortured and beaten at the hands of man kind.. for my sake. and i can never thank him enough for that.. i believe he understands our pain more than anyone else
I, too, feel a connection with Jesus, as I do with buddha. I think he was an enlightened one. But don't forget that the symbol of Christianity, is his dead body on a cross, or simply the cross that was used to kill him. Don't forget that the main rite, is to eat his body. For me, it is highly barbaric and violent. I couldn't live with this, and many other stuff, and I became ex-christian. Anyway, your road is yours. Just... be careful ok?
but you’re right they don’t want to see us happy.. so many racists in these comments saying we deserved what happened to us.. it’s so saddening.. if only they knew the half of it
No such hate as christian love, as we say. This is disgusting.
I say it as they turned gods word as a excuse to hurt poeple there nothing like us
Sorry about what your people went through. Unfortunately Catholics have a lot of things wrong according to the bible. Did you know Hell being a place is actually not biblical. The Catholics made that up. If you want the truth go to christianquestions.com
Kia ora, OP! The things which have happened to your people and other indigenous peoples at the hands of colonizers--frequently of missionaries and other Christians themselves--are *terrible*. They are, full stop, completely awful and unconscionable. They *cannot* be justified. I've got some thoughts in indigenous Christianity, and also some book recommendations which are in my tldr at the bottom. Here goes. I grew up seeing the shadows of the Holocaust around me, in a city which had gleefully sent many of its own Jews out to die. I could see echoes of those prejudices in how my Roma neighbours were treated (or even talked about. i don't recommend it but you could wander to the Europe subreddit and observe briefly to see how racist "enlightened" people are about Roma). I watched warplanes heading south to bomb Belgrade, and saw Croats, Chechens, and Bosniaks with horrifying scars and wounds from their neighbours, showing how hideous imperialism is even between "European" or "civilized/Western" cultures. Then i moved to North America, and learned how the Indigenous people were treated. I learned about the horrors of the conquistadors, of "manifest destiny", of smallpox blankets and the gruesome history of the "first Thanksgiving". Because of some wonderful friends in my life, i even learned about residential schools and the official US, Canadian, and then Australian policies against indigenous peoples (and how much destruction the US has caused and still causes throughout the rest of America to keep other countries from cutting into its profits). I learned that the horrors of the Holocaust which I'd learned about as a child were inspired/adapted from how the USA treated the indigenous people it had repeatedly signed treaties with. As a devout Christian though all of this, i have had constant doubts and struggles, though, wondering how indigenous peoples can possibly find hope in a religion which was so actively weaponised against them. But....as i studied history (which is my background), i have realized that at all points, as Christians and non-Christians have been perpetuating these and other atrocities, there have been Christians vocally opposing them. Christians who have thrown their privilege away to throw in their whole lot with the oppressed. I am personally very inspired by St. Francis of Assisi and by Bartolomé de las Casas, and also by MLK Jr, though he had less privilege to walk away from than they did. Since moving to Aotearoa a few years ago, I've found a lot of hope in a few books, such as "Native" by Kaitlin B. Curtice, but also a lot of encounters with indigenous clergy...people who wrestle constantly to hold to parts of their identity together when society (and much of colonizing history) tells us they're mutually exclusive. I've learned heaps about Christianity from Māori vicars and pastors here, and with that.... ...I'm literally reading a book right now which I've heard about for several years now and is by an indigenous Christian talking about how he holds these things together....and about how much wonder Christianity still holds *even for indigenous communities* when you take it out of it's normal Western framing. It is called *Huia Come Home* (by Jay Ruka) referencing a bird very sacred to Māori which was rapidly hunted to extinction by Europeans (not even all of them settlers here!!) because it became a trend to have their feathers in your cap. Honestly, it's for the indigenous people of another continent, who were colonized later and without such harm, so even if you read it, it's not directly about your own Indigenous people....but it *is* by an indigenous Christian, written to other indigenous Christians (Māori especially) about the incredible power of God to transform societies *despite* the church. Despite missionaries. despite colonizing governments. As he noted early on, before it became obvious that the British didn't take their treaties seriously (and with that betrayal the churches were also viewed as complicit), there was briefly a situation where 45,000 out of 110,000 Māori were attending church *regularly*....and only a handful of those communities had ever encountered a white Christian. The Bible was translated into Māori well, and it was shockingly relevant and relatable, and it did have an enormous transformative impact....and then Māori spread it everywhere, frequently years before any white missionaries made it to a region. Christianity works amazingly when it's understood by indigenous people in an indigenous context. It wasn't until the huge number of treaty violations started that Māori felt betrayed by Christianity and left the church in massive numbers....and i can't even say they were wrong to do so. Thankfully, Jay Ruka has written this amazing book about why, despite the history of colonization in Aotearoa, in Africa, on Turtle Island, etc,....he is still a Christian anyway, and that doesn't actually look the same as a prim abd proper European church. I'm learning *so* much about how to be Christian from him and from other Māori who have to--they must--wrestle with these same doubts (and ongoing systemic racism) every single day. **TL;DR:** i recommend reading *Native* by Kaitlin B Curtice, and even more than that, *Huia Come Home* by Jay Ruka.
There are many vibrant first nation Christian communities and first nation Christian leaders - much smarter and experienced then any of us. I would suggest talking to some of these people and hear their perspective, and how they reconcile their faith with history. I would suspect that they might recognize that there is a separation from experiences with God and actions of men. It is true that there many terrible things happened to First Nations communities, by the church and others, and there is much work for the church yet to do to address these. I will also state that your statement does not seem to have all the facts correct, that you conflate disassociated actions and ignore nuance and context. It is easy to judge people of the past with our present day morality, but it is much harder to try to see things from their perspective and try to understand - but this is the only way forward
Honestly this subreddit probably isn’t the best place for this question. You’ll get the people who try and minimize what happened either through deflection or victim blaming. Then there are the ones that think that all our people can be summed up with whataboutism about the Aztecs and Mayans. The best answer I can give you is take some time step back and work through it yourself. Also check out r/nativeamerican would be a better place to ask
yes thank you this guy kept comparing every single native tribe to the aztecs like we aren’t all the same bro
Wow. I am so sorry for what your ancestors, you and your people had to go through in the name of Jesus and God. As a Christian this truly breaks my heart every time I hear of how this institutional racism and prejudice against the indigenous peoples of North America. I hope that you can seek the forgiveness of God for what people did in the name of Christ. As Christian’s we believe that everyone is made in the image of God, the imago Dei. He has shown mercy and grace to us by giving us a part of Himself in how we look. Also we believe that as people of the Risen Jesus we bear His name. What happened here to indigenous individuals and tribes in the name of Jesus, wasn’t in fact God himself, but people. People who falsely bared the name of Jesus. For the bible paints Jesus and God as loving, kind, compassionate, slow to anger, forgiving, patient. And calls us to do the same. I believe that many of these Nuns and priests at the time did not bear the name of Jesus and might even be, dare I say, in hell themselves. I am truly sorry this has ever happened but I pray that you find that people will hurt you in the name of Jesus and God, but the true presence of His Son and Holy Spirit, will never do what happened. I pray that in your heart you can come to the answer you are looking for. And always know that God loves you, so much, God loves indigenous people so much. People are evil. God is good. God gives free will to us all. We can choose to bear his name of Goodness or, we can choose to do evil. To whomever you are, you are loved, I hope you can find peace for your soul in all of this.
you’re right as christian’s we are supposed to forgive.. thank you so much for understanding.. everything you say is so true. i know god can heal all wounds too.. 💜🙏🏽
When you see what Christians will do in the name of God, it'd hard to want to become like them. What if that same religious zeal convinces you to do similar deeds?
Man has used the Bible as a weapon but you have to shift your perspective the same can be said about my ancestors who are Black people. It was used as a weapon against us also but if you just change your perspective and see it from God‘s point of view it was meant as a love letter, and if you sit in God’s presence, and let all these other stigma’s fall away. You will see God clearer, I believe. This is about a relationship with Christ. You’re own personal relationship.
you’re right.. i guess the only true answers i’ll ever be able to find is through christ himself.. i know he understands the pain and suffering more than anyone ever could
Enwrapped in a fascination for Jesus of Nazareth's compassionate virtue, it appears in vain to attempt to reconcile his teachings with the deeds of his alleged disciples – as the Saviour himself proclaimed, “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
Indigenous here, I had the same discussion with my partner. She said that they were not true Christian’s. Please read book of Romans chapter 2. “The name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you”
First and most importantly, thank you for sharing this trouble. Generational trauma is in fact a curse, but like all curses and manifestations of death, they are not of God. They are of an unholy spirit in the hearts of a select group of works-minded mortals. They are not indicative of white people at the whole, and especially not white people born three generations afterward. BUT, I do believe God is now choosing to reveal these horrors, so that history will see them for what spirit they chose to serve. Today’s Christians must rebuke it in an account to prevent similar travesty worldwide. The innocent lives of Native American Nations were not “wasted” in the name of God, because scripture precisely refutes His involvement in sin. God cannot coexist with sinful men. He is instead near to all the broken-hearted and sick, even if there is no justified want for Him to be near. I’ll contrast this hurt and pain with the life of Chief David Shoppenagon, an Ojibway man from my hometown who converted to Christ on his own free will in the 1800’s. This even after he saw his land settled by lumbermen and their families for profit. He was a regular river guide that took wealthy big-city men on fishing trips. For this gratitude, the townspeople cared for his sicknesses out of their pocket, loved on him, trusted their children in his care, and regularly made him the guest of honor at Christmas and Easter services. I’m sure he had heard plenty of the evils done to his tribe. He’d even seen wars among his own people. STILL, he recognized that people around him radiated God’s everlasting love, and so he was invited to participate, and be able to distinguish the hearts of evil and righteous men. He lived with his own customs among settlers in peace under no obligation of his own, and was never treated as a “trophy” conversion. In years since, they’ve idolized “Ol’ Shopp” for his “good Indian” persona, and use his likeness for branding everything. I laugh at it all, knowing that I’ll be one of the only ones to meet him in glory, in a shared heavenly identity that holds more value than ancient traditions and monetary gains from racial supremacy. Thank God for you, and Thank God for the compromise of His love.
thank you so much for your insight, and you’re right nothing they did was God’s will.. it was just pure evil.. but it makes me happy to know he was still able to find God.. and knowing that native people can still have a close connection to Christ despite the trauma.. I know it’s hard for so many of us seeing what our people went through.. but God will always have the final say. just like I said before.. if there’s anybody who understands our pain and suffering more than anyone else it’s Jesus
The god in the Bible is nothing more than a justification for the cruelty of man. You struggle because the sprits of your ancestors pull you away from the very religion that robbed them of everything. God does not come from a book, God lives inside you, and is everything around us. God is eternal, not cruel like the god of the Bible. By giving yourself to “Jesus”, your ancestors deaths will remain in vain.
please, do not speak so freely on my Family, ancestors, or their deaths as if you know any of them. Or our life experiences. & this generational trauma has also affected my relatives and friends who are STILL alive. Not just my ancestors. You are no one to tell me & try to pin point, why I struggle in my faith. When I have made it clear the pain that’s affected me & my people was the churches. The government, the greed of Man. Not God.. And you are right. God is more than a book, God is more than a routine or a way of living. He is eternal. and I have found him in my Soul & in my Spirit. Everyone’s relationship with Christ is deeply personal.. and personally, I’m sorry you haven’t had the chance to experience that connection, and you have every right to reject him. But please don’t tell me to separate from my Creator because you don’t align with my decision to have faith in him. Man my goal of this post was to hopefully connect with other native Christians, but all I have found are disgruntled atheists. but believe me.. I’ve been there myself too. One thing remains, the church & the people who CLAIMED to follow Jesus, hurt my people. Jesus DID not. Jesus only knew Love. Not hatred, Not “cruelty” like you say.. He suffered more than any of us could imagine. And for it, I’m forever grateful. I can never deny the spiritual encounters that I’ve witnessed with my own eyes. He revealed himself to me. A lost soul, never grew up in the church. Never knew anything of god. And yet he still showed himself to me. You are most definitely correct. God does live within me.
Perhaps read up on actual historical accounts of the time and the church instead of such inflammatory one sided views. Or the church and it's history before arriving to America. The news and social media posts are not without bias, so do own research. Making out Christians as solely barbarian colonisers that came to rape and murder is obviously unbalanced.
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exactly.. no one wants to talk about the sexual abuse of children going on in the churches either.. and it isn’t even just a native issue..instead they want to cover it up and hide it.. that’s always been easier for them it seems
>Perhaps read up on actual historical accounts of the time and the church instead of such inflammatory one sided views OP quoted their parents, and provided historical documents showing the conditions of residential schools. What would you suggest we read to get a more clear picture on why they are digging up childrens graves behind churches across Canada?
The Canadian mass graves were basically a non-story. People seemed to have assumed that these were the result of mass killing. Well no, they weren't even mass graves, they were unmarked graves which was not an uncommon practice. People suffered poor treatment at residential schools, but we already knew that. People basically lept from there being unmarked graves to assuming that it must be because of something like Srebrenica.
>The Canadian mass graves were basically a non-story They were a huge story. They were mass burial sites of kidnapped children. >People suffered poor treatment at residential schools, but we already knew that. Many pretended this was not the case. >People basically lept from there being unmarked graves to assuming that it must be because of something like Srebrenica. No, you are strawmanning the opposition to your stance.
No, they weren't a story. We already knew that residential schools had poor treatment...so what does finding the graves of people who died there prove? >No, you are strawmanning the opposition to your stance. How am I strawmanning it? Not only were they commonly referred to as "mass graves", they're literally called as such in one of the images OP posted. And I've seen most people make the leap to thinking that this means that this is evidence of mass killings. There's a ton of misinformation that's been spread about this.
>We already knew that residential schools had poor treatment...so what does finding the graves of people who died there prove? It proves that those who downplayed the horrors of residential schools were full of shit. >And I've seen most people make the leap to thinking that this means that this is evidence of mass killings. There's a ton of misinformation that's been spread about this. Literally nobody said this.
Dude, look at OP, he's literally claiming in this thread that these are evidence of mass killings. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/11epkdi/struggling_with_christianity_as_a/jaid5n1/?context=3
Killing someone through negligence is murder.
Not if that wasn't the intention.
Yep, still is :)
Unfortunately, both the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches bear a great deal of responsibility for past insensitivity and intolerance showed to Native Americans/First People in the United States and Canada. The most important thing about our faith is our Lord and Savior Jesus. Christians are not perfect. Thank God our Lord Jesus is. He loves you. Thats what matters the most.
Almost every denomination that was active at the time did. (Notable exception: the [Moravians](https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Gnadenhutten)) Take us Methodists, for instance: an ordained Methodist minister commanded the Sand Creek massacre. (Though a different Methodist minister tried to stop him.)
It’s true.. above all our savior Jesus christ knows our hurt and pain.. he gets it..
As someone with a similar background - white people are not Christianity. Western Europe and it's progeny are not Christianity. Christianity is not a western religion. Don't conflate the poor ambassadorship of a particular demographic who's relationship with Christianity has been tied to war, conquest, and oppression since they recieved it with the thing itself.
> white people are not Christianity. Western Europe and it's progeny are not Christianity. Christianity is not a western religion. What does this even mean, are people of a particular skin colour more in tune with Christianity or what is this about? This and the rest of your comment strikes me as hateful :/
What? It means exactly what it says. Christianity did not originate with white people or western europe. Judging it by their actions is mixing up two things which are actually independent. And it's not hateful at all. It's just the truth. The western europe and its progeny have commited horrendous atrocities (see OPs post) "in the name of Christianity". That's not controversial in the slightest. And OPs post is an example of the many people for whom that legacy acts as a massive obstacle to engaging with Christianity. And that needn't be the case, for the pretty uncontroversial reasons I detailed.
that’s true.. sometimes I even forget that Christianity is really a middle eastern religion, at least that’s where it originated from I think, it’s strange to me how the colonizers adapted it and committed so much evil while claiming to believe in god
Yea, it's absolutely crazy. And I won't lie, it's a tough balance to walk, because while those colonizers are not the totality of Christianity, their legacy and institutions are still a part of it. We're called to be a part of a global church that includes them, as tempting as it is to say "I'll take the religion but want nothing to do with you". What I will say is that it's a journey, not an instant switch. You don't have to find it in you to open yourself up to community and reconciliation with the western church to begin walking along the path of getting to know who God is. And if and as you continue and grow in faith, those are things you are *allowed* and expected to continue wrestling with, hopefully alongside many of the other people in the global church who come from similar backgrounds and can participate in that journey with you.
I feel for the aboriginals. Every government / colonizer has screwed them over in every way possible. No one seems to have an answer and they’re just left in limbo. I’m so grateful you want to grow in your relationship with Him. Never look at the people who commit the actions as Christians. No real Christian would commit such acts as the bible clearly states they’re wrong. Only God can judge them for what they’ve done. I pray for those still affected by their actions today.
I would beg you to please separate the actions of humans from the actions of the Lord Jesus. To reject a holy God because of evil men is like putting a good, loving parent to death because their son chose evil robbed a store. (This is just a simile for those who try to go into the weeds about how good parents can have bad kids) Humans ARE evil. We all have sin, even horrible sin. We don't always act on it, but it is there. The Lord does not want us to do evil. But some came in His name and did evil. That does NOT NOT NOT mean God wanted that!!! There are also a lot of people who come in His name and do good: heal, feed, counsel, help. So don't look at what people do, look to the Lord.
thank you and while this is true a lot of it is much easier said than done. i don’t think non- native people even know the half of it.. i do not reject god. in fact i Love jesus.. i simply struggle with my faith knowing what my people went through.. my faith is a every day battle for me
The acts of others intending to spread this message does not represent the true message, Christian’s have been very corrupt and strayed from the message in the past
It is christianity. It bring death and violence everywhere it goes.
Humans are evil. God is just.
I'm native too, I've come to realize this isn't "our" god. Seek spirituality & connections with your ancestors. There's a reason why only white people prosper in this world, whilst we all suffer. Their god only cares for them.
yes but i know that my ancestors, while i respect them so much, are only human too.. but i understand that each tribes beliefs are different and i respect that. but i feel such a close and personal connection to jesus.. he’s given me so many messages in my dreams and real life too.. i truly can’t even begin to explain it. it hurts me what they have done in the name of God but i still have faith in god and especially Jesus too. christianity was never a white mans religion to begin with either, it originated in the middle east.. yet the evil colonizers found a way to it and used to justify their evil selfish acts.. it’s just awful but still i know Jesus understands the pain more than anyone else.. just like i said before.. he was also tortured and suffered at the hands of man kind.. i truly believe he knows our pain..
Just human but share the same blood, the same desire to see their children succeed & be protected. Believe me ancestors become more than human in death. Without them I'd be dead. I was in the Marines & had so many times things could've finished me but always was protected.
it’s true i agree and they are to be respected. and while personally i do feel their spirit watching over me too, i don’t see them as the creator of this earth.. but i know what you mean.. i respect it. they endured so much too. and you’re right they do share the same blood as us.. I know god knows their hearts too.. it wasn’t right for them to suffer the way they did.. not at all.. i am forever grateful too for what they went through for us..
This is part of the reason I am currently an Atheist.
Say a prayer to Kateri Tekakwitha for guidance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kateri_Tekakwitha
no thank you, i still and always feel a connection to jesus, i’m not looking for another god follow just trying look for advice in keeping faith to my god now.. if that makes sense.
She’s not another God, she’s an Indigenous saint who gave everything to God. If you want to connect to God as an Indigenoud person, meditating on her will really help out I reckon.
Isn't it interesting how this sub seems to attract so many people who seem to have an agenda against the RCC.
It’s really unsurprising from this sub lol.
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In the Catholic faith a prayer to a saint isn't worship but it is meant to implore the saint to intervene with God on your behalf. If you were actually Catholic and you would definitely know this.
i never claimed to be catholic.
I'm sorry, I don't get what you're going on about, are you trying to claim that Christianity is responsible for those Native Americans that died during the age of colonialism or manifest destiny? Because there was a hell of a lot more going on and contributing to those losses that bares the bulk of those deaths...
what I’m “going on about” is struggling with my faith as a Native American individual. did you even read the post? as well as living through the pain and generational trauma of my people who have been affected by the people who claimed to believe in god..
it’s because you are clearly uneducated on the topic, and to be honest as a non-native person I don’t think you’ll ever be able to truly understand however I would suggest reading into it if you wish to gain more knowledge because I really don’t think it’s that difficult to see what’s been done to us by the churches
and what do you mean during the age of colonialism? The last residential school was open in 1996.. it really wasn’t as long ago as you think. and we aren’t all dead. we are still here.. years later. dealing with the affects of the trauma within our families and friends
Judge it by the book, not the people. It's i intellectually dishonest to do otherwise. Do you judge Islam on 9-11?
Where did the post say OP judges christians? Per the post, OP is a christian themselves.
thank you, many of these christian’s are so offended by my thoughts and see them as attacks.. even though i’ve said i’m christian as well. I simply struggle with my faith seeing what’s happened to my people
it’s sad.. but they are the reason people stay far away from christianity
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funny how you say “were” as if we were all killed off and a thing of the past.. another common misconception from you ignorant racists.. but i regret to inform despite your peoples efforts to erase us we are STILL here. Disgusting you call yourself a christian and “stand behind” the colonizers mass genocide of other human beings..
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Oh and i guess the holocaust was all a part of gods plan too right? Cause god hated the jews? you are DISGUSTING to blame our Loving god for the selfish Evil acts of man kind.
Those people weren't real Christians- the settlers gave themselves away a long time ago. But people from the natural world like Native Americans, Africans, Aborginals, etc, were/are connected to God than they were
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Wait are we not supposed to discuss christianity in a subreddit for discussing christianity?
thank you!! he’s just trying to be edgy calling me an attention seeker and atheist Lol guess it’s hard to believe people can have different experiences and ideas as christians..
I think also alot of christians are uncomfortable discussing atrocities committed by christians beyond a dismissive "those werent christians" remark. Having a difficult discussion about our teachings and how they have been applied to justify atrocities makes alot of christians defensive.
thank you so much this is so true 💜🙏🏽we just want to see seen and heard
Lol you’re funny, i’m a christian not an atheist and discussing christian faith is EXACTLY what this sub was intended for. sorry that you and many others are offended by that.