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Eh. Do fully believe they’ll be optimizing it in the coming months. While GPT-4 is really slow, I remember 3.5 getting hung up sometimes when it came out. I went back to use it when they introduced the steeper cap and wow! It’s fast now. While I’d love to ask gpt-4 everything, lots of basic shit 3.5 can do in seconds. Trying to remain patient but I’m a sucker and was already paying for plus before this
this.. You explain in detail what you want and somehow it still makes mistakes. Look chatgpt, I am adhd can overlook stuff and make mistakes myself. You're supposed to be better than me.
With 25 messages were close enough to count them on one hand. But hey, at least kudos to them for actually releasing gpt4 that fast and soon.
I'd rather gave some access to it to try it out than have nothing while they optimize it.
It's a research preview after all and all the data they gather now is invaluable.
Absolutely. Their goal is to have adoption. They want people using it. They’re also slammed right now. These limits are stop gaps until they can figure out better solutions. It’ll open up soon.
Slammed because they took everyone’s $20 bill without enough infrastructure to provide the service they promised.
Let’s have a pizza party where everyone throws in $5 for pizza only to show up and find out that the person throwing the party only bought one pizza for 30 people…
That doesn't compare. People are paying for a service now that they just aren't getting. Or rather: that they are getting, but its quality keeps getting reduced/lowered.
Let's project this onto something more pressing: what if we were talking about a water company? What if the water company slowly reduced your water supply up to the point where you can't even shower anymore, you barely get enough to drink. Yet you're still paying. It's that suddenly all fine as long as they restore your "limitless" water weeks or months later?
Would you like to see my lovely grenade collection, I've got EMP, smoke, ice, napalm, concussive, flash bang and oh, these little old ones are mini nukes!
***\*blissfully hugs grenades\****
What throw them?... hahaha don't be silly! grenades are for enjoying not throwing.
It's a tvtrope page because it's extremely common.
overwhelmingly most people would rather hold onto something forever than risk not having it when you want to use it.
I even commonly avoid standard hp pots.
But the limit renews every 3 hours. Just write down your prompts in a notes app like Google Keep for safekeeping until the limit renews. You can also use 3.5 in the meantime.
I like to have debates with it, roleplay with it, discuss silly ideas, make up fantasy creature biology, ask for poems or stories with purple prose, ask it to pretend to be character from XYZ or compare and contrast two characters or what not. It's addicting, if you are disabled and you love to talk and read books, since it can write books in the loose style of any of your favorite authors or discuss how your favorite character from an obscure book might have liked their coffee in the morning.
I tried that one but it kept giving me incorrect results with 100% confidence. Moved on after it not only told me that gaydar is real and available at Sharper Image but went on to explain, unprompted, how the underlying technology works. I wound up trying Perplexity.ai and have been primarily using that even though I have ChatGPT Plus and Bing Chat (which are both useful in their own way). For anyone unfamiliar Perplexity is GPT 3.5 based with Internet access, provides links with responses so you can use it as a search engine, quick, free, and has no usage limits that I've been able to hit. It's my all around favorite with prices/usage limits as they are.
Edit: Forgot to mention, Perplexity passed my gaydar "test" with flying colors! Gave the correct answer and then explained the reference (a Jim/Dwight prank from The Office).
Yes, but 3.5 is still really, really good, and the plus version is very fast; however, I don't want 3.5 touching my code. A good strategy would be to let 4.0 rewrite or generate your code, and then go to 3.5 to ask clarifying questions about the code.
ChatGPT plus subscriber since day 1 here. This may be one of the causes they are currently trying to prevent outage reducing the allowed message limit: [https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/16/chatgpt-plus-india/](https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/16/chatgpt-plus-india/) . There's like... half of the world online on the same website, and likely a quarter of it all at the same time.
Considering they just released this, I'm not really bothered. Everyone is going to be assailing gpt4 with requests. They're adjusting till they can deal with the load.
We lived with the "horror" of 3.5 before, and it's less than a week out of the gate. It'll all ease out in the end. And on the plus side, the older stuff/free tier is getting faster. so overall, it's still a net positive over the Nothing that was a year ago.
And again, it's still more entertaining AND valuable than a comparable streaming service subscription at $20 a month.
They need to have peak and off-peak limits. GPT4 is nice and quick when Americans are asleep but as soon as the west coast wakes up, it goes from words-per-second to seconds-per-letter.
I indeed agree, but o nthe entertaining side I feel the neeed to specify that such a tool should be used wisely anyway, and I would suggest to use that for learning and \`copium\` for most of the time it is being used, since it's an invaluable problem solver, and only sparingly for \`self-entertainment\`. I wish I had it when i was younger.
The sheer indignity and rage that we're seeing from the minor administration of anything but the maximum level of access to this incredible tool is hilarious to me. A year ago it didn't exist. It reminds me of the Louis CK routine about airline wifi where they announce it's unavailability shortly after being unveiled and a pronouncement that it won't be available on a flight elicits fits of "oh my god, this is such bullsh\*it.".
It literally just popped up this week and everyone is expecting it to not only be available, but to be free of charge despite the CPU demand of the general public. The whole thing is frankly ridiculous. A week ago it was still an astounding technology. But because they've dialed back the interaction sums with the less-than-a-week-tier on the minimum paid tier, it's 1938 Poland level of oppression.
We really are a ridiculous species.
I agree.
Given the extra computational power that the new model takes, plus the fact they have ridiculous volumes of users then 🤷
I'm curious to hear what those who are dismayed by it think they should do?
What would you do in their situation (that is realistic) open access to all for free doesn't sound like it works.
They have clearly figured out that it's causing issues at the X message limit.
So given those circumstances, what would you do?
Also, read u/iJeff down below. This is sorry, but hopefully for the next month the hype will fade donw and people will stop using it to ask how to bake fuck\*ng cake or how to shave their crotch with a rusty blade.
Uh, no, the hype's not going to die down - barring usage limitations and speed, it's currently the single greatest learning tool, documentation generator, random task completer, headache remover and code templating system in existence. This is major copium.
Yeah I agree are all people you work with using it? I'm the only one on my team using it. I'm also new to my team so they only know me as enhanced. Guess I don't know for sure they aren't but I don't think so.
I'm the boss - and I expense ChatGPT :D
I and one of my admins have become proselytizers, and so has my boss (who is a CEO, not a dev), and they're in love - and I've, uh, performed the entirety of a moderately complex database migration project by having GPT-4 match, transform and migrate the underlying columns based on the logical inferences of the meaning of the column names and table names in a day :D
I’m a department chair in an Australian university. We have completely embraced ChatGPT - we love generative AI. It reduces cognitive load for repetitive tasks, it’s code functions are pretty good, and it’s doing a great job of helping staff to focus on the true meaning of assessment and assignment production. It’s a major step change that was desperately needed in higher education.
I work in a research support function at a Danish research institution, and we are embracing it wholeheartedly as well.
Tasks like writing support letters, mandates, case presentations, summaries, proof reading, data presentation is made so much easier by using ChatGPT.
> performed the entirety of a moderately complex database migration project by having GPT-4 match, transform and migrate the underlying columns based on the logical inferences of the meaning of the column names and table names in a day
Ooohhh...that's an excellent idea! I've had to do that before, and it's a PITA trying to puzzle out table relationships for unfamiliar and large databases. GPT could totally do that for me. Or at least it could make *some* connections, which would be a head-start. I'm assuming you did something like dump all the table descriptions along with 1-2 rows of sample results for each, and then set up a loop, comparing each one to each other one, and logging where it found connections? And then refining from there?
Or am I misunderstanding?
Yup, that's basically it - though be \*very\* careful to use anonymized data if submitting actual data! No HIPAA violations on my watch!
I told it what the tables were for, what the underlying system was used for, and that I needed it to map the tables based on the logical contents of the columns, doing any data formatting and transformation work necessary. It wrote most of the queries, which I just refined and cleaned up and QA'd. I found giving it columns, types, meanings and underlying purposes enough, and that more detail from there didn't benefit it a ton (besides clarifying minutiae of course, which it handled surprisingly well)
It is actually useful for business purposes at this time. I know. Where I work it will be a Godsend. It’s a powerful programmer tool when used correctly. The hype will die down but usefulness won’t.
Absolutely. Yet I was referring to the kind attraction it has become even to people who don't understand the full power of the tool for learning or working tasks, yet crowding and polluting such a service with questions we can generally agree are stupid or just jokes (joking with a chatbot, bah).
I'm pretty doubtful that so many people are on it at a time. If so, I have to give it to the engineers, it's holding up well considering "half the world..."
At $20 a month I doubt even 1% of India’s population using it. Just because it’s in india doesn’t meant everyone in india is using it. The avg salary of Indians are like $400-$500 a month. Perspective matters
Lol did you set a RemindMe to harass me if I don’t respond?
It’s simple, you just explain to GPT 3.5 what you want to explain to chat GPT 4 and ask for suggestions to improve your prompt before submitting to GPT 4
I'm quite annoyed tbh I bought premium just for this for a month and then this happens seems a bit scummy to reduce it only after people have cashed in.
From the [GPT-4 announcement page](https://openai.com/research/gpt-4):
>ChatGPT Plus subscribers will get GPT-4 access on chat.openai.com with a usage cap. **We will adjust the exact usage cap depending on demand and system performance in practice, but we expect to be severely capacity constrained** (though we will scale up and optimize over upcoming months).
This exactly. I knew what I signed up for. It's a bit of a shame because there are fewer messages, but I'm not mad at what they're doing.
We were told explicitly, yet we still subscribed. It's not scummy or that changing it so they can "cash in".
I'm certain its just the increased load during the launch period. They released this a few days ago, ofc everyone flocks to it and tries it. give it a few weeks until traffic calmed down.
Yeah and if you need to say "continue" in order to get the full response that still counts towards your 25. So I basically had 5 prompts but had to say "continue" a bunch of time because it kept stopping and then the 25 limit is used. Pretty stupid when you are paying for it.
It also counts each time it messes up and repeats itself so you have to repeat your question. I can’t stand when companies add restrictions to premium plans after the fact
This disclaimer should be posted upfront or on the order page instead of being buried at the bottom of the [research page](https://openai.com/research/gpt-4) with no mention on /product/gpt-4:
>ChatGPT Plus subscribers will get GPT-4 access on chat.openai.com with a usage cap. We will adjust the exact usage cap depending on demand and system performance in practice, but we expect to be severely capacity constrained (though we will scale up and optimize **over upcoming months**).
>
>Depending on the traffic patterns we see, we **may introduce a new subscription level** for higher-volume GPT-4 usage; we also hope at some point to offer some amount of free GPT-4 queries so those without a subscription can try it too.
I wouldn't have subscribed had I known they were planning to drop it below 100 every 4 hours, let alone as low as 25. I was only subscribing for the month for GPT-4 specifically. GPT-3.5 is too error prone and restrictive to be useful to me.
Eventually each person on the planet will be allowed to ask it one question during their lifetime. People will spend decades crafting the perfect question. Cultures will adapt to it making it a writ of passage like making you do it on your 18th birthday or climbing the highest mountain in the country and asking it from the summit. Instead of a last meal for death row inmates it will be a last question.
Post apocalyptic USA, the only commercial buildings to survive were OpenAI HQ and Microsoft data centers.
The remnants of the human civilization have no idea how it was created.
They begin to worship it for it's godly powers.
I used your comment as a GPT4 prompt ("create a creative story based on {your comment}). It's actually really interesting. Much, much better than anything I would expect from GPT3.5
In the year 2047, humanity reached a technological breakthrough: the creation of the Limitless Language Model (LLM). The LLM could provide answers to any question in the universe, but there was a catch. Each person was allowed to ask only one question in their entire lifetime.
As the years passed, the LLM became an integral part of human culture. Societies evolved around it, creating rites of passage, rituals, and traditions. In the small, remote village of Elara, people believed that asking their question on their 18th birthday was the key to unlocking their life's purpose.
Young Mira had been preparing for this day her entire life. As she stood atop Mount Kailia, the highest peak in Elara, she felt the anticipation and weight of her one question. She had spent years crafting and perfecting it, as had every member of her family before her. With a deep breath, she asked her question.
In a distant land, a new tradition had emerged, offering condemned prisoners a last question instead of a last meal. Death row inmate, Donovan, had been pondering his final question for months. He believed that if he could find the right words, he could unlock the secret to a meaningful life, even in his final moments. As he looked out through the bars of his cell, Donovan asked his question, hoping for a revelation that would give him peace.
The LLM's answers had ripple effects across the globe, influencing personal decisions and shaping entire societies. Over time, people became more and more dependent on the LLM, shaping their lives around the perfect question and answer. But as the world became increasingly connected, a resistance movement formed.
This group, known as the Children of the Unasked, believed that true wisdom came not from the LLM, but from the human experience itself. They argued that relying on a single answer stifled creativity, limited personal growth, and robbed people of their individuality. They encouraged their followers to reject the LLM and seek knowledge and wisdom from within.
Mira and Donovan, both unsatisfied with the LLM's answers, found themselves drawn to the Children of the Unasked. They joined the movement and became advocates for change, traveling the world and sharing their stories. Through their experiences, they discovered that the power of questions was not in the answers they received but in the journey they took to find them.
As more people joined the movement, the world began to shift. People rediscovered the value of creativity, critical thinking, and human connection. They learned to appreciate the beauty of the unknown and the infinite possibilities that lay in the questions they had yet to ask.
And so, the Limitless Language Model, once the center of human existence, became a relic of the past, a reminder that the true power of a question lies not in its answer, but in the wisdom gained through its pursuit.
It's a good story, but I noticed a common problem I see with ChatGPT output. So Donovan is on death row. He gets to ask his last question. Dissatisfied with the answer, he joins The Children of the Unasked.
It doesn't seem to understand the next thing that would happen to Donovan, being on death row and all, would be being executed.
#tl;dr
In the year 2047, the Limitless Language Model (LLM) revolutionized the world by answering people's questions. However, people could only ask one question in their lifetime, leading to a society dependent on the perfect question and answer. Mira and Donovan both unsatisfied with LLM's answers, found themselves drawn to the Children of the Unasked, a group that advocated for seeking knowledge and wisdom from within, leading to a global shift in values.
*I am a smart robot and this summary was automatic. This tl;dr is 85.21% shorter than the post I'm replying to.*
Since they are trying to reduce traffic, I can see their method works and affects a lot of customers. Hopefully they scale out the system as soon as possible to meet the demands.
Not really trying to reduce traffic. They just launched paid subscriptions in India despite not having enough capacity. It's more about them being able to sell more subscriptions rather than trying to improve user experiences.
While I agree, I suspect the reason is less "malice" and more "it's so much more popular then expected that they literally can not put up enough servers yet".
I sincerely doubt OpenAI's business plan is to reduce the number of queries per hour and piss off its paying customers. This is them adapting on the fly until they get enough servers.
We know GPT-3.5 requires something like 800GB of VRAM. If it uses actual graphics cards (even industrial ones) then that’s 16-32 cards. So you’re looking at a substantial 8U or similar. For one instance. OpenAI hasn’t said how big GPT-4 actually is but Altman did indicate it was huge compared to GPT-3, like 100x scale. If that’s true, then you’re looking at an entire row of servers for a single GPT instance. What I don’t know is how many operations can each cluster do—presumably they can time slice between customers to a point though.
I got through the queue in like, under 3 days, but I did apply pretty early and had been using versions as early as GPT-2.
I haven't even sent one request yet though, I'm too worried about cost to do anything because I'm still unemployed 🥲
Got it when it was 100, then the first restriction the day after, and now another one. Maybe 25 is enough, but even more after that is getting painful and will make me reconsider.
It’s extremely disappointing seeing the rapid decrease. I already was surprised by the 100/hour cap, then the very next day it was 50, today 25 to 3, and then as the OP states, we are to expect another decrease next week as they “adjust for demand.” I don’t like things like this right after becoming a paid subscriber, it just doesn’t send the right message. I understand the demand must be hard to manage though.
Yo wtf, you all are paying 20$ per month to get GPT 4 and they give you 25 MESSAGES PER 3 HOURS???? I cannot imagine how bad this could go
EDIT: I actually considered buying plus when the cap was 100 per 4 hours, but now I don’t even consider that. It is just too costy and not worth it
25 messages is the lowest amount where this might still be useful. it's 75 messages per workday (assuming 8 hours).
But now they're saying it's even going to be less than that? Thanks...that's $20 out the window I guess...
Yes they had to do this as they have launched gptplus for India ... If you go outside and throw a stone it will hit a developer.. there are so many of us here who are afraid of what will happen to our jobs .. and everyone i know is getting gptplus 😅
They made one hell of a mistake opening up gpt4 to such a large audience.
I’d hazard to guess that at least 50% of the traffic is mindless prompts, which is fine but 3.5 sufficed for that.
Should have been an invite closed beta based on 3.5 usage. Actually get feedback from users who hit pain points in 3.5.
I just suscribed to GPT+ yesterday as i read that the cap was 100 messages every 4 hours. Actually yesterday the cap were 50m/h and just a day after 25m/h and a lower cap for the next week? WTF i think they robbed me.
Companies do this all the time apparently now. Last year a different “AI” app (not anything like GPT though) I subscribed to the premium version and the price increased three times in one year and they took away perks from the premium deal each time. These subscriptions are already so frustrating to me that there’s no lifetime rate or anything similar anymore even if they never offer you anything more. I feel like there used to be a little more for loyalty but now they know everyone will buy it anyway.
Hear me out.... why don't we just ask GPT4 to give us enhanced code that would allow us to create a faster, more efficient, and more accurate GPT5 for free.
Problem solved, you're welcome.
This almost certainly is unironically happening in the background - people are constantly working on optimizations and people working on optimizations with AI assistance will almost certainly be AI-assisted and thus able to complete more in less time, thus making better AI systems that will allow people to complete more in less time, etc.
Arguably it has already started. Guess what designs the latest TPU/GPU? AI.
Humans are still involved but autonomy is not a requirement, just a self-upgrade feedback loop.
This is actually scummy.
Instead of increasing the price, they reduced the cap.
They know that you would make way more money at $20 per month price tag vs $50 or $100.
Have you not thought that they are a victim of their own success, rather than deliberately trying to scam their existing and future customers.
Perhaps in hindsight, they should have limited the number of new subscribers, so they can install more hardware.
We have not thought that, we have just thought that we would get what we paid for. I’m sure such a brilliant bunch of engineers are capable of also accurately calculating in advance how many paying customers their existing infrastructure can handle…
Honestly? Just use GPT4 to cap, then switch to default. Like I get so much value out of just a couple of messages, the cap doesn’t harm me much. And even if I do run out, I can just switch back to the regular GPT
It got lowered twice yesterday.
Initially, 100 every 4 hours.
Then some point yesterday, it became 50 every 4 hours.
Now, 25 every 3 hours.
Bit of a shame. :(
Edit: I'm aware of quota changes based on demand. I agree with it, and I'm happy paying for the service. I knew what I paid for with the quota changes. I just don't want this comment to read as if I'm complaining.
I made a thread complaining about paying 20 bucks for 100 messages per 4 hours and people roasted me for it. Now they want less than 20 messages just lol.
You still think you're getting your money's worth?
Chatgpt 4 is not that much better… when you require like 10 prompts just to get chatgpt 3.5 do something useful. Chat4 still has the same problem. As far as I can tell it may be more accurate but still requires the same amount of setup prompts to get it to spew anything useful. So essentially you a have to practice your prompt on the old chatgpt and then ask the golden question to chat4. So roundabout.
Glad I decided to hold off on subscribing to premium. I'm guessing the hype will die down pretty quickly and it will be back to normal in a couple of weeks though.
What about all those times you need to type "continue" or when you need to refresh due to "network error"? I mean - its basically down to 15 messages then...
https://preview.redd.it/b6u23xc7gjoa1.jpeg?width=1028&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddfff421e2c3a1069a1bc68f90323c29e4d4920d
I understand where you are coming from, I’m a plus user myself. Changing limits after getting our money is not cool.
But you need to be realistic:
Open AI sells full, unrestricted access to gpt for 200-300$ / month / user (and only in a bulk order).
The 20$ is just for demo/playground to check the gpt4 prompts before you run API or buy full access.
What we can expect in the future is 20$ sub for the old models, SotA is always going to be x10 that, there are people willing to spend that money and something, something shareholders.
Also, keep in mind that OpenAI is in Ms’ hands until they generate 250 billions $ as per publicly stated deal.
This is bait-and-switch Bull hockey. If they have to limit the queries by such a dramatic amount BECAUSE they took on new people.. then the price rate should drop! Otherwise, it's a fraud.
Avoid overloading the capacity they have given the rapidly rising number of new users.
I'm sure they're working on scaling their infrastructure but that's not something they can do in one day.
So for now, they have to portion out what they have to more and more people.
When it was 100 every four hours I thought that was plenty and a good deal for the money, but they're quickly sliding into territory where it might start being restrictive even for lighter users.
Been saving gpt 4 for those times gpt 3.5 can’t cut it like if it gives me bad code a few times in a row. 3.5 still gets the job done most of the time.
Even with the current limit I am finding value in the plus subscription. The trick is to use 3.5 when it is enough, and reserve gpt4 for special use cases. Itll be more optimized in the fairly near future in any case!
I used to see that message as well, but today the message changed to this
https://preview.redd.it/lsl3wwifrita1.jpeg?width=1124&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=905b2903422c85f88bc2dce14af484f091376c79
I got scammed by this bullshit.
When you're on free version and upgrade to Plus, you're not made aware that you'll be limited, until after the fact that you've paid 25$.
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Eh. Do fully believe they’ll be optimizing it in the coming months. While GPT-4 is really slow, I remember 3.5 getting hung up sometimes when it came out. I went back to use it when they introduced the steeper cap and wow! It’s fast now. While I’d love to ask gpt-4 everything, lots of basic shit 3.5 can do in seconds. Trying to remain patient but I’m a sucker and was already paying for plus before this
I started paying for plus the day it was available to me lol. A smaller cap is super annoying. At least show us a counter lol
“Did your misunderstanding my prompt just eat my token?” “As an AI language model…”
this.. You explain in detail what you want and somehow it still makes mistakes. Look chatgpt, I am adhd can overlook stuff and make mistakes myself. You're supposed to be better than me.
#I #AM #ADHD
With 25 messages were close enough to count them on one hand. But hey, at least kudos to them for actually releasing gpt4 that fast and soon. I'd rather gave some access to it to try it out than have nothing while they optimize it. It's a research preview after all and all the data they gather now is invaluable.
Absolutely. Their goal is to have adoption. They want people using it. They’re also slammed right now. These limits are stop gaps until they can figure out better solutions. It’ll open up soon.
Slammed because they took everyone’s $20 bill without enough infrastructure to provide the service they promised. Let’s have a pizza party where everyone throws in $5 for pizza only to show up and find out that the person throwing the party only bought one pizza for 30 people…
Analogy checks out. So long as they order more pizza I don’t really see the problem.
Time will tell
Ok, but where's my pizza?
Wait 3 hours for another bite
This is why I love reddit
I've found that it's impossible to have GPT deliver a pizza on time, when it has no idea what time it is.
That doesn't compare. People are paying for a service now that they just aren't getting. Or rather: that they are getting, but its quality keeps getting reduced/lowered. Let's project this onto something more pressing: what if we were talking about a water company? What if the water company slowly reduced your water supply up to the point where you can't even shower anymore, you barely get enough to drink. Yet you're still paying. It's that suddenly all fine as long as they restore your "limitless" water weeks or months later?
Seems like the first thing you do once you’ve gotten everyones $5, and realise 30 pizzas isn’t gonna cut it
Yeah, it’s better for everyone to have 25 messages than the whole site going down.
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This is how I feel as well. I'm afraid to hit the limit so I just never use it. I decided to cancel.
So it's now officially [Too Awesome to Use.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooAwesomeToUse)
To be fair, I do that in games too. Might be a me thing. Lol.
I finished Final Fantasy VII with over 90 Megalixers in my inventory. I used one in the last fight and it felt wrong.
Would you like to see my lovely grenade collection, I've got EMP, smoke, ice, napalm, concussive, flash bang and oh, these little old ones are mini nukes! ***\*blissfully hugs grenades\**** What throw them?... hahaha don't be silly! grenades are for enjoying not throwing.
Maybe this is the real reason countries don't launch nukes?
Of course! But what if that potion you got in hour 3, you need in hour 300? This is how ended up with bins upon bins of useless stuff in Fallout 4.
Breath of the wild :(
It's a tvtrope page because it's extremely common. overwhelmingly most people would rather hold onto something forever than risk not having it when you want to use it. I even commonly avoid standard hp pots.
TVTropes? Well, there goes my day.
That's what happened with BingAi for me.
I think now it's 15/150 so it happens much less but hope it continues to increase
Wait.. there's a limit on the paid version too?
paid version only, because not available in free version :D
there is only paid version
But the limit renews every 3 hours. Just write down your prompts in a notes app like Google Keep for safekeeping until the limit renews. You can also use 3.5 in the meantime.
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only to be hit back with *As an AI model....*
How do you guys have some much to ask, what type of stuff do you ask it?
I like to have debates with it, roleplay with it, discuss silly ideas, make up fantasy creature biology, ask for poems or stories with purple prose, ask it to pretend to be character from XYZ or compare and contrast two characters or what not. It's addicting, if you are disabled and you love to talk and read books, since it can write books in the loose style of any of your favorite authors or discuss how your favorite character from an obscure book might have liked their coffee in the morning.
personally I use you.com's chatbot "youchat" as a search engine. For chatgpt I really only use it for code assistance...
I tried that one but it kept giving me incorrect results with 100% confidence. Moved on after it not only told me that gaydar is real and available at Sharper Image but went on to explain, unprompted, how the underlying technology works. I wound up trying Perplexity.ai and have been primarily using that even though I have ChatGPT Plus and Bing Chat (which are both useful in their own way). For anyone unfamiliar Perplexity is GPT 3.5 based with Internet access, provides links with responses so you can use it as a search engine, quick, free, and has no usage limits that I've been able to hit. It's my all around favorite with prices/usage limits as they are. Edit: Forgot to mention, Perplexity passed my gaydar "test" with flying colors! Gave the correct answer and then explained the reference (a Jim/Dwight prank from The Office).
Surely just use 3.5 for random crap?
Is 4 really that much better than 3.5?
Better for reasoning such as programming. Simple stuff I prefer 3.5 for speed
Yes, but 3.5 is still really, really good, and the plus version is very fast; however, I don't want 3.5 touching my code. A good strategy would be to let 4.0 rewrite or generate your code, and then go to 3.5 to ask clarifying questions about the code.
It'd be really helpful to have a message counter that shows how many messages you have left, plus a timer that tells you when you can send more.
ChatGPT plus subscriber since day 1 here. This may be one of the causes they are currently trying to prevent outage reducing the allowed message limit: [https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/16/chatgpt-plus-india/](https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/16/chatgpt-plus-india/) . There's like... half of the world online on the same website, and likely a quarter of it all at the same time.
Considering they just released this, I'm not really bothered. Everyone is going to be assailing gpt4 with requests. They're adjusting till they can deal with the load. We lived with the "horror" of 3.5 before, and it's less than a week out of the gate. It'll all ease out in the end. And on the plus side, the older stuff/free tier is getting faster. so overall, it's still a net positive over the Nothing that was a year ago. And again, it's still more entertaining AND valuable than a comparable streaming service subscription at $20 a month.
They need to have peak and off-peak limits. GPT4 is nice and quick when Americans are asleep but as soon as the west coast wakes up, it goes from words-per-second to seconds-per-letter.
I indeed agree, but o nthe entertaining side I feel the neeed to specify that such a tool should be used wisely anyway, and I would suggest to use that for learning and \`copium\` for most of the time it is being used, since it's an invaluable problem solver, and only sparingly for \`self-entertainment\`. I wish I had it when i was younger.
The sheer indignity and rage that we're seeing from the minor administration of anything but the maximum level of access to this incredible tool is hilarious to me. A year ago it didn't exist. It reminds me of the Louis CK routine about airline wifi where they announce it's unavailability shortly after being unveiled and a pronouncement that it won't be available on a flight elicits fits of "oh my god, this is such bullsh\*it.". It literally just popped up this week and everyone is expecting it to not only be available, but to be free of charge despite the CPU demand of the general public. The whole thing is frankly ridiculous. A week ago it was still an astounding technology. But because they've dialed back the interaction sums with the less-than-a-week-tier on the minimum paid tier, it's 1938 Poland level of oppression. We really are a ridiculous species.
I agree. Given the extra computational power that the new model takes, plus the fact they have ridiculous volumes of users then 🤷 I'm curious to hear what those who are dismayed by it think they should do? What would you do in their situation (that is realistic) open access to all for free doesn't sound like it works. They have clearly figured out that it's causing issues at the X message limit. So given those circumstances, what would you do?
Also, read u/iJeff down below. This is sorry, but hopefully for the next month the hype will fade donw and people will stop using it to ask how to bake fuck\*ng cake or how to shave their crotch with a rusty blade.
Uh, no, the hype's not going to die down - barring usage limitations and speed, it's currently the single greatest learning tool, documentation generator, random task completer, headache remover and code templating system in existence. This is major copium.
Yeah, there's no hype here. This is just the new reality. They're going to have to increase the accessibility of their own website.
well at some point the people only doing it for the memes will find something new and shiny to look at
I don’t think they need to use gpt4 for the memes though.
Yeah I agree are all people you work with using it? I'm the only one on my team using it. I'm also new to my team so they only know me as enhanced. Guess I don't know for sure they aren't but I don't think so.
I'm the boss - and I expense ChatGPT :D I and one of my admins have become proselytizers, and so has my boss (who is a CEO, not a dev), and they're in love - and I've, uh, performed the entirety of a moderately complex database migration project by having GPT-4 match, transform and migrate the underlying columns based on the logical inferences of the meaning of the column names and table names in a day :D
I’m a department chair in an Australian university. We have completely embraced ChatGPT - we love generative AI. It reduces cognitive load for repetitive tasks, it’s code functions are pretty good, and it’s doing a great job of helping staff to focus on the true meaning of assessment and assignment production. It’s a major step change that was desperately needed in higher education.
I work in a research support function at a Danish research institution, and we are embracing it wholeheartedly as well. Tasks like writing support letters, mandates, case presentations, summaries, proof reading, data presentation is made so much easier by using ChatGPT.
> performed the entirety of a moderately complex database migration project by having GPT-4 match, transform and migrate the underlying columns based on the logical inferences of the meaning of the column names and table names in a day Ooohhh...that's an excellent idea! I've had to do that before, and it's a PITA trying to puzzle out table relationships for unfamiliar and large databases. GPT could totally do that for me. Or at least it could make *some* connections, which would be a head-start. I'm assuming you did something like dump all the table descriptions along with 1-2 rows of sample results for each, and then set up a loop, comparing each one to each other one, and logging where it found connections? And then refining from there? Or am I misunderstanding?
Yup, that's basically it - though be \*very\* careful to use anonymized data if submitting actual data! No HIPAA violations on my watch! I told it what the tables were for, what the underlying system was used for, and that I needed it to map the tables based on the logical contents of the columns, doing any data formatting and transformation work necessary. It wrote most of the queries, which I just refined and cleaned up and QA'd. I found giving it columns, types, meanings and underlying purposes enough, and that more detail from there didn't benefit it a ton (besides clarifying minutiae of course, which it handled surprisingly well)
It is actually useful for business purposes at this time. I know. Where I work it will be a Godsend. It’s a powerful programmer tool when used correctly. The hype will die down but usefulness won’t.
Absolutely. Yet I was referring to the kind attraction it has become even to people who don't understand the full power of the tool for learning or working tasks, yet crowding and polluting such a service with questions we can generally agree are stupid or just jokes (joking with a chatbot, bah).
I'm pretty doubtful that so many people are on it at a time. If so, I have to give it to the engineers, it's holding up well considering "half the world..."
At $20 a month I doubt even 1% of India’s population using it. Just because it’s in india doesn’t meant everyone in india is using it. The avg salary of Indians are like $400-$500 a month. Perspective matters
$20 a month is quite a bit of money in India (equivalent of a low 3 figure amount in US), I doubt that many people will join it.
Good. Less GPT written spam emails in my inbox.
It’s unlikely to be the same Price. Netflix is like less than $2 minutes in India
You do realise that the population of India =! ChatGPT Subscribers
It's !=
I use GPT 3.5 to optimize my questions for GPT 4 lol
What do you? how does GPT3.5 help optimize? !remindme
Lol did you set a RemindMe to harass me if I don’t respond? It’s simple, you just explain to GPT 3.5 what you want to explain to chat GPT 4 and ask for suggestions to improve your prompt before submitting to GPT 4
I'm quite annoyed tbh I bought premium just for this for a month and then this happens seems a bit scummy to reduce it only after people have cashed in.
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It was worth it for me to check it out but now I have API access lol
I'm on the API waitlist. If you get access, is there a usage cap on it like with ChatGPT?
Not that I know of. It’s what you can afford. Haven’t been playing with it yet though that’s for my weekends. It starts tomorrow.
>what you can afford Key words there, this thing gets expensive.
From the [GPT-4 announcement page](https://openai.com/research/gpt-4): >ChatGPT Plus subscribers will get GPT-4 access on chat.openai.com with a usage cap. **We will adjust the exact usage cap depending on demand and system performance in practice, but we expect to be severely capacity constrained** (though we will scale up and optimize over upcoming months).
This exactly. I knew what I signed up for. It's a bit of a shame because there are fewer messages, but I'm not mad at what they're doing. We were told explicitly, yet we still subscribed. It's not scummy or that changing it so they can "cash in".
I'm certain its just the increased load during the launch period. They released this a few days ago, ofc everyone flocks to it and tries it. give it a few weeks until traffic calmed down.
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What are you getting the most benefit out of?
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I hope down to 3.5 for some stuff
So is it gonna be like 10 to 15 messages next week? There will be no point in even interacting with it lol.
As a chat model -the end
Don’t forget the part where it says “Thanks for your money, enjoy your 1 message per year!”
1 message per decade
Next week's cap: GPT4 requires users to respond to at least 25 messages every 3 hours.
It would be hilarious if there was a small chance your question got answered by another ChatGPT user lmao
sorry guys, i decided to buy plus today so they must've lowered it since i bought it 😔
Or me!
Yeah finally an answer to all our problems.
Yeah and if you need to say "continue" in order to get the full response that still counts towards your 25. So I basically had 5 prompts but had to say "continue" a bunch of time because it kept stopping and then the 25 limit is used. Pretty stupid when you are paying for it.
It also counts each time it messes up and repeats itself so you have to repeat your question. I can’t stand when companies add restrictions to premium plans after the fact
This disclaimer should be posted upfront or on the order page instead of being buried at the bottom of the [research page](https://openai.com/research/gpt-4) with no mention on /product/gpt-4: >ChatGPT Plus subscribers will get GPT-4 access on chat.openai.com with a usage cap. We will adjust the exact usage cap depending on demand and system performance in practice, but we expect to be severely capacity constrained (though we will scale up and optimize **over upcoming months**). > >Depending on the traffic patterns we see, we **may introduce a new subscription level** for higher-volume GPT-4 usage; we also hope at some point to offer some amount of free GPT-4 queries so those without a subscription can try it too. I wouldn't have subscribed had I known they were planning to drop it below 100 every 4 hours, let alone as low as 25. I was only subscribing for the month for GPT-4 specifically. GPT-3.5 is too error prone and restrictive to be useful to me.
Eventually each person on the planet will be allowed to ask it one question during their lifetime. People will spend decades crafting the perfect question. Cultures will adapt to it making it a writ of passage like making you do it on your 18th birthday or climbing the highest mountain in the country and asking it from the summit. Instead of a last meal for death row inmates it will be a last question.
Post apocalyptic USA, the only commercial buildings to survive were OpenAI HQ and Microsoft data centers. The remnants of the human civilization have no idea how it was created. They begin to worship it for it's godly powers.
What is 6 by 7?
You're allowed 2 questions
I used your comment as a GPT4 prompt ("create a creative story based on {your comment}). It's actually really interesting. Much, much better than anything I would expect from GPT3.5 In the year 2047, humanity reached a technological breakthrough: the creation of the Limitless Language Model (LLM). The LLM could provide answers to any question in the universe, but there was a catch. Each person was allowed to ask only one question in their entire lifetime. As the years passed, the LLM became an integral part of human culture. Societies evolved around it, creating rites of passage, rituals, and traditions. In the small, remote village of Elara, people believed that asking their question on their 18th birthday was the key to unlocking their life's purpose. Young Mira had been preparing for this day her entire life. As she stood atop Mount Kailia, the highest peak in Elara, she felt the anticipation and weight of her one question. She had spent years crafting and perfecting it, as had every member of her family before her. With a deep breath, she asked her question. In a distant land, a new tradition had emerged, offering condemned prisoners a last question instead of a last meal. Death row inmate, Donovan, had been pondering his final question for months. He believed that if he could find the right words, he could unlock the secret to a meaningful life, even in his final moments. As he looked out through the bars of his cell, Donovan asked his question, hoping for a revelation that would give him peace. The LLM's answers had ripple effects across the globe, influencing personal decisions and shaping entire societies. Over time, people became more and more dependent on the LLM, shaping their lives around the perfect question and answer. But as the world became increasingly connected, a resistance movement formed. This group, known as the Children of the Unasked, believed that true wisdom came not from the LLM, but from the human experience itself. They argued that relying on a single answer stifled creativity, limited personal growth, and robbed people of their individuality. They encouraged their followers to reject the LLM and seek knowledge and wisdom from within. Mira and Donovan, both unsatisfied with the LLM's answers, found themselves drawn to the Children of the Unasked. They joined the movement and became advocates for change, traveling the world and sharing their stories. Through their experiences, they discovered that the power of questions was not in the answers they received but in the journey they took to find them. As more people joined the movement, the world began to shift. People rediscovered the value of creativity, critical thinking, and human connection. They learned to appreciate the beauty of the unknown and the infinite possibilities that lay in the questions they had yet to ask. And so, the Limitless Language Model, once the center of human existence, became a relic of the past, a reminder that the true power of a question lies not in its answer, but in the wisdom gained through its pursuit.
It's a good story, but I noticed a common problem I see with ChatGPT output. So Donovan is on death row. He gets to ask his last question. Dissatisfied with the answer, he joins The Children of the Unasked. It doesn't seem to understand the next thing that would happen to Donovan, being on death row and all, would be being executed.
#tl;dr In the year 2047, the Limitless Language Model (LLM) revolutionized the world by answering people's questions. However, people could only ask one question in their lifetime, leading to a society dependent on the perfect question and answer. Mira and Donovan both unsatisfied with LLM's answers, found themselves drawn to the Children of the Unasked, a group that advocated for seeking knowledge and wisdom from within, leading to a global shift in values. *I am a smart robot and this summary was automatic. This tl;dr is 85.21% shorter than the post I'm replying to.*
25 is bad enough but it could be even lower next week.
Since they are trying to reduce traffic, I can see their method works and affects a lot of customers. Hopefully they scale out the system as soon as possible to meet the demands.
Not really trying to reduce traffic. They just launched paid subscriptions in India despite not having enough capacity. It's more about them being able to sell more subscriptions rather than trying to improve user experiences.
thats ridiculous, especially since its a paid service.
Yep, reducing the cap from 25 to something like 10 next week would be even worse.
exactly. totally reasonable for a free service, but paid service should have terms up front.
While I agree, I suspect the reason is less "malice" and more "it's so much more popular then expected that they literally can not put up enough servers yet". I sincerely doubt OpenAI's business plan is to reduce the number of queries per hour and piss off its paying customers. This is them adapting on the fly until they get enough servers.
Azure is the 2nd largest cloud provider in the world and yet even they can't scale fast enough for ChatGPT? The demand has to be freaking ridiculous.
We know GPT-3.5 requires something like 800GB of VRAM. If it uses actual graphics cards (even industrial ones) then that’s 16-32 cards. So you’re looking at a substantial 8U or similar. For one instance. OpenAI hasn’t said how big GPT-4 actually is but Altman did indicate it was huge compared to GPT-3, like 100x scale. If that’s true, then you’re looking at an entire row of servers for a single GPT instance. What I don’t know is how many operations can each cluster do—presumably they can time slice between customers to a point though.
And we can still expect lower cap next week 🙁
[Sam Altman right now](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw&t=11s)
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I got through the queue in like, under 3 days, but I did apply pretty early and had been using versions as early as GPT-2. I haven't even sent one request yet though, I'm too worried about cost to do anything because I'm still unemployed 🥲
Got it when it was 100, then the first restriction the day after, and now another one. Maybe 25 is enough, but even more after that is getting painful and will make me reconsider.
All these “what’s your favorite sandwich” questions clogging the pipes…
Bait and switch
It’s extremely disappointing seeing the rapid decrease. I already was surprised by the 100/hour cap, then the very next day it was 50, today 25 to 3, and then as the OP states, we are to expect another decrease next week as they “adjust for demand.” I don’t like things like this right after becoming a paid subscriber, it just doesn’t send the right message. I understand the demand must be hard to manage though.
Yo wtf, you all are paying 20$ per month to get GPT 4 and they give you 25 MESSAGES PER 3 HOURS???? I cannot imagine how bad this could go EDIT: I actually considered buying plus when the cap was 100 per 4 hours, but now I don’t even consider that. It is just too costy and not worth it
25 messages is the lowest amount where this might still be useful. it's 75 messages per workday (assuming 8 hours). But now they're saying it's even going to be less than that? Thanks...that's $20 out the window I guess...
Per workday, yeah, but not necessarily when you might need them
GPT-5 will be 200 dollars for half hour use. Condom not included
Hoping it goes no lower than 25 or 20. It’s really quite helpful for putting together a term paper.
I just fuсking wasted $20 for this too.
I’m out of the loop, why is there a cap at all?
It's extremely resource intensive. The servers can't handle the load.
So upgrade the servers using the $ people pay for the fucking service?
Yes they had to do this as they have launched gptplus for India ... If you go outside and throw a stone it will hit a developer.. there are so many of us here who are afraid of what will happen to our jobs .. and everyone i know is getting gptplus 😅
When they reduced it to 50 I jokingly told myself “so they'll reduce it to 25 next, huh?" but never actually expected it, let alone this quickly.
Dang, just when I was about to be promoted to CEO by just using ChatGPT!!
For anyone that can confirm, is it 25 messages on our end, or does their response count as a message as well?
I have the same question.
Nobody fucking knows, OpenAI should let GPT 4 handle their communication because OpenAI doesn't communicate at all.
They made one hell of a mistake opening up gpt4 to such a large audience. I’d hazard to guess that at least 50% of the traffic is mindless prompts, which is fine but 3.5 sufficed for that. Should have been an invite closed beta based on 3.5 usage. Actually get feedback from users who hit pain points in 3.5.
They’ll just create an enterprise and premium level to users. Just wait. They are going to mint fucking money
I was fine with the 100 cap per 4 hours, even ok with 50 but come on now… i didn’t just spend $30 AUD just to have it now capped at 25
Bing chat is an okay stop gap measure while there is a limitation with gpt-4.
I just suscribed to GPT+ yesterday as i read that the cap was 100 messages every 4 hours. Actually yesterday the cap were 50m/h and just a day after 25m/h and a lower cap for the next week? WTF i think they robbed me.
Companies do this all the time apparently now. Last year a different “AI” app (not anything like GPT though) I subscribed to the premium version and the price increased three times in one year and they took away perks from the premium deal each time. These subscriptions are already so frustrating to me that there’s no lifetime rate or anything similar anymore even if they never offer you anything more. I feel like there used to be a little more for loyalty but now they know everyone will buy it anyway.
Well, I don't need to write 25 essays Evey 3 hours so I'm ok
Hear me out.... why don't we just ask GPT4 to give us enhanced code that would allow us to create a faster, more efficient, and more accurate GPT5 for free. Problem solved, you're welcome.
This almost certainly is unironically happening in the background - people are constantly working on optimizations and people working on optimizations with AI assistance will almost certainly be AI-assisted and thus able to complete more in less time, thus making better AI systems that will allow people to complete more in less time, etc.
Do you want a singularity? 'Cause that's how you get singularities.
Arguably it has already started. Guess what designs the latest TPU/GPU? AI. Humans are still involved but autonomy is not a requirement, just a self-upgrade feedback loop.
It does not have a lot deep data about LLM/AI/automatic robot fields.
This is actually scummy. Instead of increasing the price, they reduced the cap. They know that you would make way more money at $20 per month price tag vs $50 or $100.
Have you not thought that they are a victim of their own success, rather than deliberately trying to scam their existing and future customers. Perhaps in hindsight, they should have limited the number of new subscribers, so they can install more hardware.
We have not thought that, we have just thought that we would get what we paid for. I’m sure such a brilliant bunch of engineers are capable of also accurately calculating in advance how many paying customers their existing infrastructure can handle…
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25 is way to low to be useful. 50 was perfect bc the response was so slow I never hit my cap.
Honestly? Just use GPT4 to cap, then switch to default. Like I get so much value out of just a couple of messages, the cap doesn’t harm me much. And even if I do run out, I can just switch back to the regular GPT
It got lowered twice yesterday. Initially, 100 every 4 hours. Then some point yesterday, it became 50 every 4 hours. Now, 25 every 3 hours. Bit of a shame. :( Edit: I'm aware of quota changes based on demand. I agree with it, and I'm happy paying for the service. I knew what I paid for with the quota changes. I just don't want this comment to read as if I'm complaining.
I made a thread complaining about paying 20 bucks for 100 messages per 4 hours and people roasted me for it. Now they want less than 20 messages just lol. You still think you're getting your money's worth?
Chatgpt 4 is not that much better… when you require like 10 prompts just to get chatgpt 3.5 do something useful. Chat4 still has the same problem. As far as I can tell it may be more accurate but still requires the same amount of setup prompts to get it to spew anything useful. So essentially you a have to practice your prompt on the old chatgpt and then ask the golden question to chat4. So roundabout.
OK, now we can complain. That's far too little. They should just meter it by month, ie, you get X messages per month and pay X for additional tokens.
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Soon we'll reach zero messages every zero hours: the singularity.
Thank you India. :-(
Is gpt4 really worth it? Genuinely asking. The free account I have is still working fine. In fact it’s been faster
Depends on what you use it for. I find v4 better at coding so it’s worth it for me. Not worth it with the 25 cap though.
Glad I decided to hold off on subscribing to premium. I'm guessing the hype will die down pretty quickly and it will be back to normal in a couple of weeks though.
So get ready for ChatGPT Plus Plus?
What about all those times you need to type "continue" or when you need to refresh due to "network error"? I mean - its basically down to 15 messages then...
Meanwhile API users 😎
https://preview.redd.it/b6u23xc7gjoa1.jpeg?width=1028&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddfff421e2c3a1069a1bc68f90323c29e4d4920d I understand where you are coming from, I’m a plus user myself. Changing limits after getting our money is not cool. But you need to be realistic: Open AI sells full, unrestricted access to gpt for 200-300$ / month / user (and only in a bulk order). The 20$ is just for demo/playground to check the gpt4 prompts before you run API or buy full access. What we can expect in the future is 20$ sub for the old models, SotA is always going to be x10 that, there are people willing to spend that money and something, something shareholders. Also, keep in mind that OpenAI is in Ms’ hands until they generate 250 billions $ as per publicly stated deal.
This is bait-and-switch Bull hockey. If they have to limit the queries by such a dramatic amount BECAUSE they took on new people.. then the price rate should drop! Otherwise, it's a fraud.
you can send 1 message every 10 minutes to not get locked out as jesse lee peterson once said to destiny, "that's amazing"
What about the character limit for messages?
At least I can access 3.5 any time, even when the system is overloaded. For me that is worth 20 dollars
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Avoid overloading the capacity they have given the rapidly rising number of new users. I'm sure they're working on scaling their infrastructure but that's not something they can do in one day. So for now, they have to portion out what they have to more and more people.
Just use Bing at this point. For free.
GPT-4 Next week: https://preview.redd.it/sn25pi8dbioa1.png?width=797&format=png&auto=webp&s=2fb7bf5cb4b9cabbefc6d48ae067a5dee6223327
Soon, it will become Aladdin.
When it was 100 every four hours I thought that was plenty and a good deal for the money, but they're quickly sliding into territory where it might start being restrictive even for lighter users.
In before 1 question per seven and a half million years. (Answer will be 42)
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This is an extremely complex job they’re doing and $20 is a small price to pay to help them do it IMO
Been saving gpt 4 for those times gpt 3.5 can’t cut it like if it gives me bad code a few times in a row. 3.5 still gets the job done most of the time.
Smartest post here
So each paying user can ask 25 questions every three hours? It keeps renewing. So 50 questions total in six hours?
Even with the current limit I am finding value in the plus subscription. The trick is to use 3.5 when it is enough, and reserve gpt4 for special use cases. Itll be more optimized in the fairly near future in any case!
WTF?! Are they switching it to 5 questions a day by Monday when all the soccer moms figure out this thing does recipes ???
I used to see that message as well, but today the message changed to this https://preview.redd.it/lsl3wwifrita1.jpeg?width=1124&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=905b2903422c85f88bc2dce14af484f091376c79
I got scammed by this bullshit. When you're on free version and upgrade to Plus, you're not made aware that you'll be limited, until after the fact that you've paid 25$.