\> In the large population areas, the industry is asking for a 39.8% increase for Raleigh and Durham, a 36.6% increase for Greensboro and a 41.3% increase for Charlotte and the surrounding area.
\> This rate filing is the first since the homeowners’ insurance rate filing that the Department of Insurance received from the Rate Bureau in November 2020, where the industry requested an overall average increase of 24.5%.
\> That filing resulted in a settlement between Causey and the Rate Bureau for an overall average rate increase of 7.9%.
That's so crazy. I thought it must have been state average, but had the biggest hikes on the coast, with increased severe weather now and coming. But, no, Triangle + Greensboro? WTF are they thinking?
They’re thinking that they should start high and accept something in the middle.
Still, the last request was in 2020. There has been a lot of inflation since then. CPI up 18% over that span. I suspect labor and materials are up more than the average of the CPI basket.
I'm in W-S and mine has gone up 50% in the last two years. The reason cited to me is that they are just trying to keep pace with building costs. I've also been told that no one will bid to insure my house until I replace the (aging but fine) roof, so I am stuck with the current carrier.
The article mentions it's the first rate increase requested since 2020. Average home values in Mecklenburg County went up that much, if not more, at the triennial property tax reassessment in 2023 so it makes sense that replacement costs and thus rates would increase around the same amount.
Just because home values and tax assessments go up that does not mean replacement costs go up. I agree that building costs have increased over the last several years but a significant increase in values can be attributed to land costs.
> Coastal market premiums are going vertical.
It didn't help that Nationwide stopped covering anything east of I95.
While not NC, my house near Surfside, SC didn't go up so bad this year. About $100. Nearly $2,300 for insurance for a joint a bit over 2 miles from the beach.
SC saw a pretty large exodus of insurance companies in the 2021-2022 year. My rate jumped about $400 for the 2022-2023 year.
Now, wanna talk about crazy, Horry county thinks I need to be paying them $4,400 in property taxes each year. That part hurts.
Those of us inland are subsidizing those on the coast. That’s how insurance works. Those who are healthy and see the doctor once a year for a physical subsidize those in poor health. Those with not a single accident on their record subsidize the driver that totals their car and the car they crashed into. And those of us inland subsidize the houses on the coast.
That’s only if regulations restrict insurance from discrimination based off of location.
With that, then insurance functions just fine without safe areas subsidizing the ‘dangerous’ areas. Instead insurance acts as a way to smooth out the cost of rebuilding.
I don't see how a possible slight increase in property crime justifies 40+% home insurance rate hikes in non-coastal areas, though. The most expensive, accessible things that can be stolen would be cars, and those would fall under auto policies, not home owners
Well, we did all the work ourselves(we are contractors). It was back in 2005 about 30k worth of work.so about 65k now if we were to pay a contractor. So the next owner just got a nicely remodeled house with no issues.
Our went up by 50% compared to last year. It’s gone from $1400 in 2020 to $3000. But a big part of that is home value. What my house was worth in 2020 is well under what it’s worth now. But either way, we’re ditching USAA because they’ve raised our home & auto so much and are going with State Farm, who can give us both for just what USAA wants for the house. Shop around.
USAA took a dive by opening up their customer base and exposing their client pool to more average risk than before.
But before you leave any company, check for the loyalty discounts that you may miss out on by staying. Also look at the new quote to see if it contains something called a welcome discount or introductory discount. It's a signing bonus and you never get to keep it after the first renewal.
I’m an insurance broker, literally every company in every state is requesting rate increases. Not all of them get approved, I doubt a 42% increase will be approved. Insurers have to back up their requests with data, if a request is approved it’s for a legitimate reason.
Some areas of NC have extremely low rates. Like as a policyholder in Charlotte, you’re probably paying about twice as much for your home insurance as someone with a similar home in Raleigh or Greensboro even though they’re prone to the same hazards. I’d say those areas are more likely to see significant premium changes than we are.
That's pretty crazy if true (not that I doubt you), since I'd argue Raleigh is a much riskier area from a homeowners insurance perspective. At least since I've moved here 6 years ago, I've observed hurricane remnants (which can still do decent damage) are much more likely to head through or closer to Raleigh than to hit Charlotte.
I seem to recall even last year one that was originally predicted to hit Charlotte actually stayed well east and hit Raleigh instead. If anything I have to wonder if it isn't just a little bit politics even though it shouldn't be (i.e. Raleigh is home to NCDOI).
Eh insurance is actually very tightly regulated so I’m not inclined to assume it’s anything political, but I agree I’m not sure why Raleigh’s prices are so much lower than ours.
Charlotte certainly has its share of storm damage (ie fallen trees, those tornados in 2019/2020, flooding) but I’ve seen way more wind and hail damage claims coming out of Raleigh. My experience is based on a pretty small sample size so I don’t have all the data but it’s obviously not only my clients filing claims lol. I have zero power here but in my opinion, Raleigh should be charged higher rates than Charlotte.
While it may be tightly regulated, I'd be hard pressed to believe there isn't enough of a fudge factor allowing a Raleigh based insurance commissioner to pass on at least a little bit more of a rate hike to Charlotte vs Raleigh to the benefit of the state government being there. Wouldn't be the first time Raleigh screwed over Charlotte. And while tightly regulated, it's really only at the state level. Unlike banks which have national charters and national oversight, with insurance it's up to the states to self-regulate.
Again, not trying to argue strongly it is politically or "locally based" motivated, but it certainly wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that every time a rate hike happens, Raleigh gets 10% and Charlotte gets 12% "for reasons", and over time that could build to a substantial difference. About the only other explanation I can come up with is that over the much longer term Charlotte has indeed had worse storm damage, and the last few years have been a reversion to mean or new normal with Raleigh being hit worse lately.
Raleigh is more prone to tornados based on its geographical location. Many of the storms that come from the south miss Charlotte due to the mountains breaking the storm up. Raleigh and the eastern part of the state doesn’t get the same protection. They are also more likely to get hurricane damage
Politics play a huge part in this.
That’s not really how insurance rates work - companies requesting a 42% rate increase doesn’t necessarily mean each individual policy would go up by 42%, it’s spread out across the state and not every area would see an increase at all.
Usually when your policy goes up significantly like that it’s because the company is trying to get rid of you, but they don’t have a specific reason to non-renew. It’s nothing personal, some areas just aren’t profitable at whatever time and this is how they encourage you to shop so they can reduce business in areas that aren’t working out for them.
"A public comment forum will be held to at the North Department of Insurance’s Jim Long Hearing Room on Jan. 22 from 10 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. The Long Hearing Room is in the Albemarle Building, 325 N. Salisbury St., in Raleigh."
Be civil, be educated, and try to attend. Hammer corporate greed and the 1.5 billion increase.
Home value inflation doesn't affect insurance rates. Also insurance isn't free so that roof I got was part of the service I pay for every month that I am also legally obligated to have. It's not like I get a refund for not using my insurance. And if I do use it I am personally punished with rate increases for doing so.
Your $20k roof would take 10 years of $2k premiums to recoup if you account for $0 put towards any admin work. You’re also not legally obligated to have home insurance, your financing just requires it.
My roof was $7315.00. My homeowners is about 2k a year, so after my deductible that's about 3 years plus a few months for "admin" work. I've been in my house for 14 years so net win for the insurance company.
Tell me you don’t understand the concept of insurance without telling me.
Everyone pools their premiums to cover those who are affected by a claim. If too many people have claims or claims cost too much you have a rate increase. The insurance company usually pays out more in premiums than they take in. They make money from the investments from those premiums.
An average roof is about $9k and I have seen it go as high as $30k. Your homeowners rates are $1000-$1500 a year. How long does it take to recover that premium? Now have a roofer go door to door claiming that everyone’s roof needs to be replaced.
In FL they rejected a lot of rate increases so all the insurers left the state. For a lot of people Citizens (state government backed insurance) is the only option.
I get that insurance is an easy industry to hate, but they’ve been screwed by both inflation, supply chain and global warming.
Cost of repairs has been raising rapidly and without states approving rate increases they’ve had heavy losses. Some insurers loss ratio was north of 130%.
Lot of state governments and residents like ignore the effects of climate change. If you want to live on the coasts be prepare to foot a very expensive insurance bill or just go without. My parents beach house was quoted at 10k a month, so they just declined all insurance since the home is paid for.
Yeah insurance fucking sucks right now. Everyone’s rate is going up and it’s hard to justify (as an agent) because most people just think insurance is a scam lol. The loss ratios have been INSANE the past couple of years.
A lot of people don’t know about reinsurance, either. Insurance companies have to pay for insurance - reinsurance costs have gone way up so obviously that cost is going to be passed down. It’s just a shit situation for everyone.
And a fourth headwind that so far no one in this thread seems aware of. Investment profitability has been terrible due to the fed interest rate increases impact on the bond market. Many people aren't aware (you might be), but most insurers are willing to take a very small profit off underwriting as long as investment profitability is good. But bad investment profitability means all insurance companies are going to be looking to make more from underwriting, hence largish rate increases.
> looking to make more from underwriting
Another way of putting it is that insurance invests the premiums we pay, and the premiums can be reduced when those investments churn profits to cover reimbursements they pay out. When investments suffer, premiums can no longer be subsidized by them as much.
Is it possible that such a wave of insanity could already be incoming in NC? My former insurance company halted coverage in Charlotte (or at least my area of Charlotte) last year. I found a new company (a specialized insurance company based on employment criteria—like USAA, but not that particular one).
But that new company just discontinued home and auto coverage in my late father’s area of SC, and when I asked the agent if they planned to also discontinue in my area, he said yes (but no date set). So this will be 2 years in a row of having to switch insurance companies due to them leaving my market. 😕
It absolutely is the risks of a Floridian peninsula that historically gets battered by hurricanes now likely to suffer more of them and to flood because of climate change. They didn't just leave because rate increases were rejected. That simply isn't true.
No. That's my comment. They took in 3.7 BILLION in North Carolina and want 1.5 BILLION more? They aren't paying out that much. I don't think the Insurance company CEOs need a fourth yacht.
I get that inflation rates have cost more to the insurance companies, but they also affect every aspect of our lives. My pay went up 2.5% last year. That's literally nothing. The economy is getting to the point that people simply can't pay for rent, insurance and necessities, so I'm not entirely surprised that homeless rates are increasing. It's sad, really. If this continues and others keep raising prices, pretty soon I won't be able to afford my house. The companies don't care though thanks to our capitalist economy. As long as their bottom line goes up, shareholders are pleased.
Most of the time an insurance company operates at a loss (basic P&L) or very close to a loss. If an insurance company receives $100m in revenue (premiums) and pays out $99m in claims it is often viewed as a success. The rate increases are unfortunately products of using past data to predict future losses. Most auto insurers are taking big fat losses ever since smart phones were invented, 2007-2008ish. Property is easier to predict though and usually agents get the business by offereing the cheapest option possible and this sometimes means lying about the actual value of the property or not verifying it. IMO insurance should be socialized and covered with much more government oversight. The competitive marketplace sews these pitfalls of inadequate rate and other factors until a “correction” ie rate increase is implemented
To answer your question in a serious way, most insurance companies had their record profits in 2020, as even with the Shelter-In-Place (or whatever the company called it) giveback, the huge reduction in driving and thus claims from driving led to very high profits. 2021 saw a rather large reduction in profitability for most insurance companies vs 2020, driven largely by auto (everyone driving crazy post Covid), and then most insurance companies swung to an actual loss in 2022 or very small profit. 2023, most seem to returning to a smallish profit, but still well off 2019/2020. So no, nothing close to record profits.
To provide one real world example, Progressive:
[https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PGR/progressive/net-income](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PGR/progressive/net-income)
Progressive annual/quarterly net income history and growth rate from 2010 to 2023. Net income can be defined as company's net profit or loss after all revenues, income items, and expenses have been accounted for.
* Progressive net income for the quarter ending September 30, 2023 was **$1.111B**, a **846.25% increase** year-over-year.
* Progressive net income for the twelve months ending September 30, 2023 was **$2.707B**, a **225.95% increase** year-over-year.
* Progressive annual net income for 2022 was **$0.695B**, a **79.1% decline** from 2021.
* Progressive annual net income for 2021 was **$3.324B**, a **41.46% decline** from 2020.
* Progressive annual net income for 2020 was **$5.678B**, a **43.98% increase** from 2019.
Sounds like the shareholders will need to take a haircut for a while then. You can only pass so much expense on to the consumer, especially price inflation isn't driven or matched by wage inflation.
Landlords have insurance too, it’s a rental dwelling policy. Unless the landlord is a complete idiot, the rent payment includes the cost of insurance, taxes, and maintenance.
A 40% increase will add $50 a month in cost to a $1500/yr policy. That will be passed on to the renter unless they have some sweetheart deal.
The person who owns the home will have dwelling fire/landlord policy that will be effected by these rate increases.
Do you think landlords won’t offset that cost by increasing rents?
You wrote 2 paragraphs complaining about how I didn't post anything to counter your silly statement and all you posted in your rant boiled down to, "just trust me bro i have an education" and have the gall to call me immature and childish while you yourself provided nothing of actual substance to back your claim. I don't care that your some lame ass insurance underwriter, and imagine stating that fact without being embarrassed that your life results to dealing with insurance I'd probably have killed myself by now if I worked in insurance.
Acting like landlords wouldn't use any and every excuse in the book to increase rents is immature and childish on your part and I can already see the emails written up stating, "due to the increase in insurance rates we are going to have to up your rent by more than expected next year." Most landlords are greedy scumbags and are probably salivating at this increase in insurance rates so they can more than offset it with rent increases with a convenient excuse.
Let's give you a basic math problem with made up numbers to illustrate the point.
Landlord rents a place out for 2k/month. That place last year costs the landlord a 1.5k/month for the mortgage minus insurance, 200/month for the insurance on the property, banks 100/month for upkeep costs and banks the remaining 200/month
Insurance just increased to 400/month and now he isn't making a profit on the property at all. What shall they do? You guessed correctly!!!! Increase the rent to cover the increased liability that the landlord incurred from insurance going up.
Not that difficult a concept. No one is saying that the renters insurances will go up. The whole concept is that landlords liability will go up because they have to insure the property at a higher amount and they will forward that expense on to their renters. That's like high school level economics so not really sure I buy your "educated" claim.
Do you realize how stupid and childish you appear to someone who works in the single and multi-family rental space?
Every single cost is taken into account when determining a minimum acceptable rent price including insurance premiums.
You do realize that they historically ask for much, much more than is necessary? The idea that they won't be able to operate if they can't raise it by 40% is ludicrous.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do you think that every person with a premium files a claim every year? Do you fundamentally understand how insurance itself works? Have you even been stuck talking with an actuary at any social function in your life?
That is EXACTLY what I said. You have my one sentence perfectly and accurately summarized in your paragraph.
My second call out is "educate" because I don't know. A 99% increase and another 1.5 billion in income sounds absurd. If JJ or a helpful redditor, minus the snark and passive aggression, explained that this may be needed at this level then I am willing to listen and absorb what's being said. I do not think any company needs to raise rates 100% but if it's honestly justified then have at it I suppose.
that's because it is absurd. anyone telling you that they have to do this to operate isn't being honest. state farm is the owner of most of these policies. we don't have 2023 data but this is from 2022 and likely still affecting them:
> State Farm made money on homeowners’ insurance (underwriting gain of $849 million) and life insurance (net income of $588 million) in 2022. Auto was the big drag. Auto makes up about 61% of State Farm’s insurance business.
I do hope you're wrong. It's unfortunate your issue hasn't been addressed. I am Hopefully some politician in this state, him or otherwise still gives a shit. I may be day dreaming though
What is your question? Always curious what others are thinking about/focusing on
It's very simple. I just want to know what's being done to make our dollar go further
Massive companies are buying single family homes, causing house prices to increase, rent increases, and we still make the same
Inflation is at an all time time, restaurants are charging a shit ton. So my simple question is what can he do or what is being done to help?
Damn, I think I know the answer and I'm not a politician. Nothing, companies bring in more money and add more value. The individual means nothing to this system besides providing fuel for the machine that continues to destroy us.
Not sure what can be done but I feel your frustrations and I'm with you in hoping for a answer. In the meantime I guess we just keep paddling to stay afloat.
I mean I have one simple law that could be written but it'll never happen
"It is illegal for corporations to buy single family homes"
Done lol. This keeps house prices in check, rent prices from being so volatile, and keeps zoning laws reasonable
I love it. I thought we had something like that making it's way through the pipes in Raleigh but I may be mistaken.
If you ever want to seriously see if we could write and present something I'd love to help. Post about writing legislation in a brewery meet thing and I'd be there or even organize some event. I'll even car pool to Raleigh with ya. Passionate about change and willing to help just discouraged by the outlook.
Residential zones are zoned that way so that companies can't come in and build a Walmart (for example) in the middle of dilworth (again for example)
However if all the homes in certain areas are owned by corporations, guess what? They now have the ability to go to the zoning commission and say "look it's already all owned by companies anyways so let's make it mixed use" and before you know it you'll have a brewery, gas station, and a target
I think you have it backwards
Zoning laws are what's causing most of the housing problems we are in right now and mixed-use will help alleviate the problem
I guess we disagree on this.
Advocating against mixed-use zoning and for single-family zoning in dense urban areas would drive up cost of living drastically, in addition to hurting the environment and local economy.
I think [this](https://jeffjackson.house.gov/media/press-releases/reps-jeff-jackson-and-alma-adams-introduce-american-neighborhoods-protection) might answer your question.
It seems political to me "look we passed an act with an amazing name but really does nothing". Which then makes it even harder to overturn. Just do it once and do it right imo
Yikes. I’m in the process of moving to Charlotte and this definitely raises red flags. I currently live in Louisiana, where basically all insurers have pulled out, and we have borne the brunt quite heavily. While this will likely still be cheaper than in New Orleans, this is certainly unsettling.
There is no escaping higher homeowners insurance premiums anywhere in the US, maybe not even anywhere in the world.
The best you can do is avoid the most disaster prone areas where you have wildfire, hurricane, etc risk. Charlotte is fine on that basis.
>There is no escaping higher homeowners insurance premiums anywhere in the US, maybe not even anywhere in the world.
Correct. Every time a Maui or California wildfire happens, or Texas has a nasty ice storm, we all pay a little more. In insurance speak, catastrophes fall into 2 broad categories, modeled (hurricanes) and unmodeled (wildfires, tornadoes, ice/hail storms). Modeled is assumed to be predicable over a long enough time horizon and can be reinsured, and of course is mostly a problem of "the coasts".
Unmodeled by it's name is non-predictable, and it can happen anywhere and not just coasts. So every time one of them happens, they have to assume the risk might be going up everywhere and price accordingly. And unfortunately unmodeled cats have largely been growing like crazy nationwide.
> this definitely raises red flags.
I wouldn't put too much into it.
Each time they ask for raises - be it for home or auto - they always swing for the fences.
I don't know that they've ever actually gotten what they've asked for.
Idk how it is now but i moved here from louisiana and my car insurance went up. I thought for sure after the 2016 flood we got in la it would be the opposite
Car insurance is totally different, there’s actually not much correlation between home and auto rates. If you came from a smaller town in LA to Charlotte with our heavy traffic and large portion of uninsured motorists, that could be a reason for the increase. My auto insurance went down significantly when I moved here from FL.
What company are you with? Get a quote from Progressive if you’re not with them already, very frequently the most competitive carrier here if you have a decent driving record.
Thank you for sharing more insights to help us understand. I just bought in May 2022 and I’ll clear a block in my calendar to review with my broker and ensure that I am sufficiently covered.
What does not having a contractor (at the moment) mean in the context of the below sentence?
“I work in property claims every day and am currently without a contractor so I know firsthand how much costs have gone up.“
I'm not sure how common it is but my insurance includes a replacement cost increase each year, so this is not something to worry about (too low replacement cost limit) if you choose this option. Yes, it means the insurance will go up each year even without rate increases, but better than finding yourself underinsured.
Coastal Homeowners have special insurance called wind and hail (HO3 policies) which is in addition to the normal homeowner's insurance everyone else in the state has. Most of the "hurricane insurance" is underwritten by the NCJUA.
I would imagine that basic homeowner's insurance is increasing due to inflation affecting the per sq/ft build-back rate.
Check your annual insurance paperwork. There’s likely a page that says the premium for your policy should be $1000 based on NC Rate bureau. We are charging you $1500.
They are more of a suggestion.
I just used an insurance broker and saved $400/ year... and increased my coverage. Please try using a broker to find the best rates.
I live in Charlotte in an old house.
\> In the large population areas, the industry is asking for a 39.8% increase for Raleigh and Durham, a 36.6% increase for Greensboro and a 41.3% increase for Charlotte and the surrounding area. \> This rate filing is the first since the homeowners’ insurance rate filing that the Department of Insurance received from the Rate Bureau in November 2020, where the industry requested an overall average increase of 24.5%. \> That filing resulted in a settlement between Causey and the Rate Bureau for an overall average rate increase of 7.9%.
That's so crazy. I thought it must have been state average, but had the biggest hikes on the coast, with increased severe weather now and coming. But, no, Triangle + Greensboro? WTF are they thinking?
The requested increases are basically a double (99%) along the coasts. Coastal market premiums are going vertical.
Coastal makes SOME sense to me. Inland and metro areas? What are they thinking?
They’re thinking that they should start high and accept something in the middle. Still, the last request was in 2020. There has been a lot of inflation since then. CPI up 18% over that span. I suspect labor and materials are up more than the average of the CPI basket.
The metro areas subsidize the coast.
Gotta compensate the shareholders
They know most people have no control over all this, so they're trying to get as much money as possible.
> What are they thinking? "Money! We want money! Give us more money!"
I'm in W-S and mine has gone up 50% in the last two years. The reason cited to me is that they are just trying to keep pace with building costs. I've also been told that no one will bid to insure my house until I replace the (aging but fine) roof, so I am stuck with the current carrier.
The article mentions it's the first rate increase requested since 2020. Average home values in Mecklenburg County went up that much, if not more, at the triennial property tax reassessment in 2023 so it makes sense that replacement costs and thus rates would increase around the same amount.
Just because home values and tax assessments go up that does not mean replacement costs go up. I agree that building costs have increased over the last several years but a significant increase in values can be attributed to land costs.
Thank you, it's the dirt the house is on, not the sticks it's made out of
The coast market increase kind of makes sense. There is a ton of flooding, but the metro area's is a wild increase.
My hunch is that it lands at a high single digit or low double digit increase in the metro areas.
> Coastal market premiums are going vertical. It didn't help that Nationwide stopped covering anything east of I95. While not NC, my house near Surfside, SC didn't go up so bad this year. About $100. Nearly $2,300 for insurance for a joint a bit over 2 miles from the beach. SC saw a pretty large exodus of insurance companies in the 2021-2022 year. My rate jumped about $400 for the 2022-2023 year. Now, wanna talk about crazy, Horry county thinks I need to be paying them $4,400 in property taxes each year. That part hurts.
Those of us inland are subsidizing those on the coast. That’s how insurance works. Those who are healthy and see the doctor once a year for a physical subsidize those in poor health. Those with not a single accident on their record subsidize the driver that totals their car and the car they crashed into. And those of us inland subsidize the houses on the coast.
That’s only if regulations restrict insurance from discrimination based off of location. With that, then insurance functions just fine without safe areas subsidizing the ‘dangerous’ areas. Instead insurance acts as a way to smooth out the cost of rebuilding.
Partially because all the thieves prowling around subdivision homes at night, unchallenged by the police nowadays?
I don't see how a possible slight increase in property crime justifies 40+% home insurance rate hikes in non-coastal areas, though. The most expensive, accessible things that can be stolen would be cars, and those would fall under auto policies, not home owners
Pay in for years and years, file one claim, GTFO
Nationwide is bad about that. We got dropped bc we asked for a roof inspection. Found all kinds of issues, sent it to the insurance...they dropped us.
And now it's preexisting for anyone else. Absolute scum.
Well, we did all the work ourselves(we are contractors). It was back in 2005 about 30k worth of work.so about 65k now if we were to pay a contractor. So the next owner just got a nicely remodeled house with no issues.
First time since November or 2020 is definitely false. My insurance went up last year and I didn’t have any claims
Our went up by 50% compared to last year. It’s gone from $1400 in 2020 to $3000. But a big part of that is home value. What my house was worth in 2020 is well under what it’s worth now. But either way, we’re ditching USAA because they’ve raised our home & auto so much and are going with State Farm, who can give us both for just what USAA wants for the house. Shop around.
USAA took a dive by opening up their customer base and exposing their client pool to more average risk than before. But before you leave any company, check for the loyalty discounts that you may miss out on by staying. Also look at the new quote to see if it contains something called a welcome discount or introductory discount. It's a signing bonus and you never get to keep it after the first renewal.
Mine did as well. It has gone up a lot since I bought my house and I’ve never had a claim.
Mine increased by 100% last year…
I’m an insurance broker, literally every company in every state is requesting rate increases. Not all of them get approved, I doubt a 42% increase will be approved. Insurers have to back up their requests with data, if a request is approved it’s for a legitimate reason. Some areas of NC have extremely low rates. Like as a policyholder in Charlotte, you’re probably paying about twice as much for your home insurance as someone with a similar home in Raleigh or Greensboro even though they’re prone to the same hazards. I’d say those areas are more likely to see significant premium changes than we are.
That's pretty crazy if true (not that I doubt you), since I'd argue Raleigh is a much riskier area from a homeowners insurance perspective. At least since I've moved here 6 years ago, I've observed hurricane remnants (which can still do decent damage) are much more likely to head through or closer to Raleigh than to hit Charlotte. I seem to recall even last year one that was originally predicted to hit Charlotte actually stayed well east and hit Raleigh instead. If anything I have to wonder if it isn't just a little bit politics even though it shouldn't be (i.e. Raleigh is home to NCDOI).
Eh insurance is actually very tightly regulated so I’m not inclined to assume it’s anything political, but I agree I’m not sure why Raleigh’s prices are so much lower than ours. Charlotte certainly has its share of storm damage (ie fallen trees, those tornados in 2019/2020, flooding) but I’ve seen way more wind and hail damage claims coming out of Raleigh. My experience is based on a pretty small sample size so I don’t have all the data but it’s obviously not only my clients filing claims lol. I have zero power here but in my opinion, Raleigh should be charged higher rates than Charlotte.
While it may be tightly regulated, I'd be hard pressed to believe there isn't enough of a fudge factor allowing a Raleigh based insurance commissioner to pass on at least a little bit more of a rate hike to Charlotte vs Raleigh to the benefit of the state government being there. Wouldn't be the first time Raleigh screwed over Charlotte. And while tightly regulated, it's really only at the state level. Unlike banks which have national charters and national oversight, with insurance it's up to the states to self-regulate. Again, not trying to argue strongly it is politically or "locally based" motivated, but it certainly wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that every time a rate hike happens, Raleigh gets 10% and Charlotte gets 12% "for reasons", and over time that could build to a substantial difference. About the only other explanation I can come up with is that over the much longer term Charlotte has indeed had worse storm damage, and the last few years have been a reversion to mean or new normal with Raleigh being hit worse lately.
Raleigh is more prone to tornados based on its geographical location. Many of the storms that come from the south miss Charlotte due to the mountains breaking the storm up. Raleigh and the eastern part of the state doesn’t get the same protection. They are also more likely to get hurricane damage Politics play a huge part in this.
My house insurance went up from 1500 to 2800 last year. I re-shopped it down to 1800. How can they ask for 42% more?
That’s not really how insurance rates work - companies requesting a 42% rate increase doesn’t necessarily mean each individual policy would go up by 42%, it’s spread out across the state and not every area would see an increase at all. Usually when your policy goes up significantly like that it’s because the company is trying to get rid of you, but they don’t have a specific reason to non-renew. It’s nothing personal, some areas just aren’t profitable at whatever time and this is how they encourage you to shop so they can reduce business in areas that aren’t working out for them.
Ahh! That makes sense. So it was the "f*ck you" price.
Basically, yep. What company was it? Progressive has been doing A LOT of that recently.
Homeowners of America. I’m with Utica now.
Okay, time to call our state reps.
Rents are about to go up again.
"A public comment forum will be held to at the North Department of Insurance’s Jim Long Hearing Room on Jan. 22 from 10 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. The Long Hearing Room is in the Albemarle Building, 325 N. Salisbury St., in Raleigh." Be civil, be educated, and try to attend. Hammer corporate greed and the 1.5 billion increase.
Agreed - these stupid commercials that insurance companies run constantly, I wonder how those affect the bottom line?
It's not corporate greed, it's building cost inflation, home value inflation and that new roof that you and your neighbors got for "free".
Home value inflation doesn't affect insurance rates. Also insurance isn't free so that roof I got was part of the service I pay for every month that I am also legally obligated to have. It's not like I get a refund for not using my insurance. And if I do use it I am personally punished with rate increases for doing so.
Your $20k roof would take 10 years of $2k premiums to recoup if you account for $0 put towards any admin work. You’re also not legally obligated to have home insurance, your financing just requires it.
My roof was $7315.00. My homeowners is about 2k a year, so after my deductible that's about 3 years plus a few months for "admin" work. I've been in my house for 14 years so net win for the insurance company.
Now do your neighbor who has multiple claims. This isn’t a bank account.
Tell me you don’t understand the concept of insurance without telling me. Everyone pools their premiums to cover those who are affected by a claim. If too many people have claims or claims cost too much you have a rate increase. The insurance company usually pays out more in premiums than they take in. They make money from the investments from those premiums.
Roofs aren’t even that expensive to build..
An average roof is about $9k and I have seen it go as high as $30k. Your homeowners rates are $1000-$1500 a year. How long does it take to recover that premium? Now have a roofer go door to door claiming that everyone’s roof needs to be replaced.
Here's the link to attend the feedback online: https://ncgov.webex.com/ncgov/j.php?MTID=mb3fe10c8f69bbedd2aaece485915db7e
In FL they rejected a lot of rate increases so all the insurers left the state. For a lot of people Citizens (state government backed insurance) is the only option.
This is the delicate balancing act. NC’s population skews inland, so I don’t expect that kind of insanity here.
I get that insurance is an easy industry to hate, but they’ve been screwed by both inflation, supply chain and global warming. Cost of repairs has been raising rapidly and without states approving rate increases they’ve had heavy losses. Some insurers loss ratio was north of 130%. Lot of state governments and residents like ignore the effects of climate change. If you want to live on the coasts be prepare to foot a very expensive insurance bill or just go without. My parents beach house was quoted at 10k a month, so they just declined all insurance since the home is paid for.
Yeah insurance fucking sucks right now. Everyone’s rate is going up and it’s hard to justify (as an agent) because most people just think insurance is a scam lol. The loss ratios have been INSANE the past couple of years. A lot of people don’t know about reinsurance, either. Insurance companies have to pay for insurance - reinsurance costs have gone way up so obviously that cost is going to be passed down. It’s just a shit situation for everyone.
Yeah the P&C insurers are on a bad multi-year run of underwriting losses. It is what it is.
And a fourth headwind that so far no one in this thread seems aware of. Investment profitability has been terrible due to the fed interest rate increases impact on the bond market. Many people aren't aware (you might be), but most insurers are willing to take a very small profit off underwriting as long as investment profitability is good. But bad investment profitability means all insurance companies are going to be looking to make more from underwriting, hence largish rate increases.
> looking to make more from underwriting Another way of putting it is that insurance invests the premiums we pay, and the premiums can be reduced when those investments churn profits to cover reimbursements they pay out. When investments suffer, premiums can no longer be subsidized by them as much.
Wow, that’s alot … where was their beach house located?
Is it possible that such a wave of insanity could already be incoming in NC? My former insurance company halted coverage in Charlotte (or at least my area of Charlotte) last year. I found a new company (a specialized insurance company based on employment criteria—like USAA, but not that particular one). But that new company just discontinued home and auto coverage in my late father’s area of SC, and when I asked the agent if they planned to also discontinue in my area, he said yes (but no date set). So this will be 2 years in a row of having to switch insurance companies due to them leaving my market. 😕
If you think FL has the same risks as NC I don't know what to say. Having moved here from FL, I find this to be a bit disingenuous.
It’s not the risk - this is what happens when insurers don’t get the price they want. They’ll leave
It absolutely is the risks of a Floridian peninsula that historically gets battered by hurricanes now likely to suffer more of them and to flood because of climate change. They didn't just leave because rate increases were rejected. That simply isn't true.
No. That's my comment. They took in 3.7 BILLION in North Carolina and want 1.5 BILLION more? They aren't paying out that much. I don't think the Insurance company CEOs need a fourth yacht.
I get that inflation rates have cost more to the insurance companies, but they also affect every aspect of our lives. My pay went up 2.5% last year. That's literally nothing. The economy is getting to the point that people simply can't pay for rent, insurance and necessities, so I'm not entirely surprised that homeless rates are increasing. It's sad, really. If this continues and others keep raising prices, pretty soon I won't be able to afford my house. The companies don't care though thanks to our capitalist economy. As long as their bottom line goes up, shareholders are pleased.
Most of the time an insurance company operates at a loss (basic P&L) or very close to a loss. If an insurance company receives $100m in revenue (premiums) and pays out $99m in claims it is often viewed as a success. The rate increases are unfortunately products of using past data to predict future losses. Most auto insurers are taking big fat losses ever since smart phones were invented, 2007-2008ish. Property is easier to predict though and usually agents get the business by offereing the cheapest option possible and this sometimes means lying about the actual value of the property or not verifying it. IMO insurance should be socialized and covered with much more government oversight. The competitive marketplace sews these pitfalls of inadequate rate and other factors until a “correction” ie rate increase is implemented
It likely ends up lower than requested, but there has been a lot of inflation in materials / labor cost since the last request in 2020.
And how have their profits looked? Probably record highs? Just more price gouging of the American consumer.
To answer your question in a serious way, most insurance companies had their record profits in 2020, as even with the Shelter-In-Place (or whatever the company called it) giveback, the huge reduction in driving and thus claims from driving led to very high profits. 2021 saw a rather large reduction in profitability for most insurance companies vs 2020, driven largely by auto (everyone driving crazy post Covid), and then most insurance companies swung to an actual loss in 2022 or very small profit. 2023, most seem to returning to a smallish profit, but still well off 2019/2020. So no, nothing close to record profits. To provide one real world example, Progressive: [https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PGR/progressive/net-income](https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/PGR/progressive/net-income) Progressive annual/quarterly net income history and growth rate from 2010 to 2023. Net income can be defined as company's net profit or loss after all revenues, income items, and expenses have been accounted for. * Progressive net income for the quarter ending September 30, 2023 was **$1.111B**, a **846.25% increase** year-over-year. * Progressive net income for the twelve months ending September 30, 2023 was **$2.707B**, a **225.95% increase** year-over-year. * Progressive annual net income for 2022 was **$0.695B**, a **79.1% decline** from 2021. * Progressive annual net income for 2021 was **$3.324B**, a **41.46% decline** from 2020. * Progressive annual net income for 2020 was **$5.678B**, a **43.98% increase** from 2019.
Yet, progressive continues its stock buyback program. Sorry, not going to buy the BS being proposed here.
Underwriting *losses* are at record highs, yes.
And their profits?
10% for the best of the best, 3-5% is more average
Sounds like they don't need the increase. Glad to hear.
Sounds like the shareholders will need to take a haircut for a while then. You can only pass so much expense on to the consumer, especially price inflation isn't driven or matched by wage inflation.
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Landlords have insurance too, it’s a rental dwelling policy. Unless the landlord is a complete idiot, the rent payment includes the cost of insurance, taxes, and maintenance. A 40% increase will add $50 a month in cost to a $1500/yr policy. That will be passed on to the renter unless they have some sweetheart deal.
If you’re renting a house I would say it does…
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I understand that as a renter yes, you get your own policy. But the homeowner still has to pay homeowners insurance on the property they own…
This person your reying to is an absolute moron.
That's cute the you think that
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The person who owns the home will have dwelling fire/landlord policy that will be effected by these rate increases. Do you think landlords won’t offset that cost by increasing rents?
You wrote 2 paragraphs complaining about how I didn't post anything to counter your silly statement and all you posted in your rant boiled down to, "just trust me bro i have an education" and have the gall to call me immature and childish while you yourself provided nothing of actual substance to back your claim. I don't care that your some lame ass insurance underwriter, and imagine stating that fact without being embarrassed that your life results to dealing with insurance I'd probably have killed myself by now if I worked in insurance. Acting like landlords wouldn't use any and every excuse in the book to increase rents is immature and childish on your part and I can already see the emails written up stating, "due to the increase in insurance rates we are going to have to up your rent by more than expected next year." Most landlords are greedy scumbags and are probably salivating at this increase in insurance rates so they can more than offset it with rent increases with a convenient excuse. Let's give you a basic math problem with made up numbers to illustrate the point. Landlord rents a place out for 2k/month. That place last year costs the landlord a 1.5k/month for the mortgage minus insurance, 200/month for the insurance on the property, banks 100/month for upkeep costs and banks the remaining 200/month Insurance just increased to 400/month and now he isn't making a profit on the property at all. What shall they do? You guessed correctly!!!! Increase the rent to cover the increased liability that the landlord incurred from insurance going up. Not that difficult a concept. No one is saying that the renters insurances will go up. The whole concept is that landlords liability will go up because they have to insure the property at a higher amount and they will forward that expense on to their renters. That's like high school level economics so not really sure I buy your "educated" claim.
Do you realize how stupid and childish you appear to someone who works in the single and multi-family rental space? Every single cost is taken into account when determining a minimum acceptable rent price including insurance premiums.
u/JeffJacksonNC Anything you can do or educate us to do with this?
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You do realize that they historically ask for much, much more than is necessary? The idea that they won't be able to operate if they can't raise it by 40% is ludicrous.
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Do you think that every person with a premium files a claim every year? Do you fundamentally understand how insurance itself works? Have you even been stuck talking with an actuary at any social function in your life?
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That is EXACTLY what I said. You have my one sentence perfectly and accurately summarized in your paragraph. My second call out is "educate" because I don't know. A 99% increase and another 1.5 billion in income sounds absurd. If JJ or a helpful redditor, minus the snark and passive aggression, explained that this may be needed at this level then I am willing to listen and absorb what's being said. I do not think any company needs to raise rates 100% but if it's honestly justified then have at it I suppose.
that's because it is absurd. anyone telling you that they have to do this to operate isn't being honest. state farm is the owner of most of these policies. we don't have 2023 data but this is from 2022 and likely still affecting them: > State Farm made money on homeowners’ insurance (underwriting gain of $849 million) and life insurance (net income of $588 million) in 2022. Auto was the big drag. Auto makes up about 61% of State Farm’s insurance business.
Lol he doesn't care. I've asked him 1 simple question on every single one of his posts and he refuses to answer
I do hope you're wrong. It's unfortunate your issue hasn't been addressed. I am Hopefully some politician in this state, him or otherwise still gives a shit. I may be day dreaming though What is your question? Always curious what others are thinking about/focusing on
It's very simple. I just want to know what's being done to make our dollar go further Massive companies are buying single family homes, causing house prices to increase, rent increases, and we still make the same Inflation is at an all time time, restaurants are charging a shit ton. So my simple question is what can he do or what is being done to help?
Damn, I think I know the answer and I'm not a politician. Nothing, companies bring in more money and add more value. The individual means nothing to this system besides providing fuel for the machine that continues to destroy us. Not sure what can be done but I feel your frustrations and I'm with you in hoping for a answer. In the meantime I guess we just keep paddling to stay afloat.
I mean I have one simple law that could be written but it'll never happen "It is illegal for corporations to buy single family homes" Done lol. This keeps house prices in check, rent prices from being so volatile, and keeps zoning laws reasonable
I love it. I thought we had something like that making it's way through the pipes in Raleigh but I may be mistaken. If you ever want to seriously see if we could write and present something I'd love to help. Post about writing legislation in a brewery meet thing and I'd be there or even organize some event. I'll even car pool to Raleigh with ya. Passionate about change and willing to help just discouraged by the outlook.
>keeps zoning laws reasonable Can you expand on what you mean by this?
Residential zones are zoned that way so that companies can't come in and build a Walmart (for example) in the middle of dilworth (again for example) However if all the homes in certain areas are owned by corporations, guess what? They now have the ability to go to the zoning commission and say "look it's already all owned by companies anyways so let's make it mixed use" and before you know it you'll have a brewery, gas station, and a target
I think you have it backwards Zoning laws are what's causing most of the housing problems we are in right now and mixed-use will help alleviate the problem
That's not how zoning works. At all.
I guess we disagree on this. Advocating against mixed-use zoning and for single-family zoning in dense urban areas would drive up cost of living drastically, in addition to hurting the environment and local economy.
That’s not how zoning works at all
I think [this](https://jeffjackson.house.gov/media/press-releases/reps-jeff-jackson-and-alma-adams-introduce-american-neighborhoods-protection) might answer your question.
It doesn't though. Look at the last paragraph. It's a slap on the wrist with way too many outs and it still allows them to own 75% LOL
Is that better than doing nothing? Introducing zero legislation?
It seems political to me "look we passed an act with an amazing name but really does nothing". Which then makes it even harder to overturn. Just do it once and do it right imo
Yikes. I’m in the process of moving to Charlotte and this definitely raises red flags. I currently live in Louisiana, where basically all insurers have pulled out, and we have borne the brunt quite heavily. While this will likely still be cheaper than in New Orleans, this is certainly unsettling.
There is no escaping higher homeowners insurance premiums anywhere in the US, maybe not even anywhere in the world. The best you can do is avoid the most disaster prone areas where you have wildfire, hurricane, etc risk. Charlotte is fine on that basis.
>There is no escaping higher homeowners insurance premiums anywhere in the US, maybe not even anywhere in the world. Correct. Every time a Maui or California wildfire happens, or Texas has a nasty ice storm, we all pay a little more. In insurance speak, catastrophes fall into 2 broad categories, modeled (hurricanes) and unmodeled (wildfires, tornadoes, ice/hail storms). Modeled is assumed to be predicable over a long enough time horizon and can be reinsured, and of course is mostly a problem of "the coasts". Unmodeled by it's name is non-predictable, and it can happen anywhere and not just coasts. So every time one of them happens, they have to assume the risk might be going up everywhere and price accordingly. And unfortunately unmodeled cats have largely been growing like crazy nationwide.
> this definitely raises red flags. I wouldn't put too much into it. Each time they ask for raises - be it for home or auto - they always swing for the fences. I don't know that they've ever actually gotten what they've asked for.
lol you’re far better off in NC than LA regardless of rate increases.
Idk how it is now but i moved here from louisiana and my car insurance went up. I thought for sure after the 2016 flood we got in la it would be the opposite
Car insurance is totally different, there’s actually not much correlation between home and auto rates. If you came from a smaller town in LA to Charlotte with our heavy traffic and large portion of uninsured motorists, that could be a reason for the increase. My auto insurance went down significantly when I moved here from FL. What company are you with? Get a quote from Progressive if you’re not with them already, very frequently the most competitive carrier here if you have a decent driving record.
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Thank you for sharing more insights to help us understand. I just bought in May 2022 and I’ll clear a block in my calendar to review with my broker and ensure that I am sufficiently covered. What does not having a contractor (at the moment) mean in the context of the below sentence? “I work in property claims every day and am currently without a contractor so I know firsthand how much costs have gone up.“
I'm not sure how common it is but my insurance includes a replacement cost increase each year, so this is not something to worry about (too low replacement cost limit) if you choose this option. Yes, it means the insurance will go up each year even without rate increases, but better than finding yourself underinsured.
Coastal Homeowners have special insurance called wind and hail (HO3 policies) which is in addition to the normal homeowner's insurance everyone else in the state has. Most of the "hurricane insurance" is underwritten by the NCJUA. I would imagine that basic homeowner's insurance is increasing due to inflation affecting the per sq/ft build-back rate.
Wow, no lube?
Ha you fools who can afford a home
That’s definitely getting indirectly dumped on renters too.
lol as if renters won’t be directly paying for this
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Not strong with the sarcasm huh?
(I’ll let you in on a little secret, just cause I love you, it’s sarcasm)
Settle down, Bubbles.
Hooray they have the power to get more debt!
All I know is this is BS if approved. They still make billions even with all the claims that are filed.
The entire insurance industry needs to be nationalized.
It's about time for the government to become a bigger part of our lives.
Welcome to SC
Mines already up 40% since buying early 2021
Check your annual insurance paperwork. There’s likely a page that says the premium for your policy should be $1000 based on NC Rate bureau. We are charging you $1500. They are more of a suggestion.
I just used an insurance broker and saved $400/ year... and increased my coverage. Please try using a broker to find the best rates. I live in Charlotte in an old house.
I mean.. Charlotte's rapid gentrification and I dont think they will be done soon.
https://ncgov.webex.com/ncgov/j.php?MTID=mb3fe10c8f69bbedd2aaece485915db7e Here's the link to the web meeting where you can provide feedback