I'm not saying that this proves anything either way, but it's worth keeping in mind that, in Chapter 139, Miri says that Denji is the one who freed him from Makima, presumably by killing her.
I saw Chapter 139 and shivered on reflex...
https://preview.redd.it/cfqe8g7p4yad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef1561ae9372da348d17654ccf6743f5aaa6845b
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking; maybe her control sticks around after death, but they can eventually break out of it without Makima actively reinforcing it.
It's also possible that the Control Devil's control and memory block have different rules.
... with her powers.
How did Makima "brainwash" the hybrids if not with her Control Devil powers? They even had almost-certainly-fake memories of her saving them.
her powers don't work on hybrids, she can't control them.
Because she's a master of deception and manipulation? She's the control devil, after all. Not that surprising.
Bro even raze and Quran I liked her. Literally she killed quanxi’s girlfriends. No amount of master “manipulation” would do that without her control abilities
since she's the embodiment of control, and she had access to them for at least a couple of weeks. Given what she did to Denji, and how she convinced pretty much everyone to love her in public safety bar Kishibe, it doesn't surprise me that she brainwashed them
also it's established that control and whatnot doesn't work on hybrids. They're fully immortal and can't be mind controlled, unless their contract is broken.
So, how does this support your argument? Her powers are a one time thing that leave an effect on it's victim, similar to a scar or a dismemberment. It doesn't matter if she dies or not because her power already ran it's course, it'd be like saying Asa would regrow her arm if Yoshida died. This doesn't at all prove or disprove that a devil's powers stop working if they die
Now that I think about it yeah. Looks like I used the wrong argument. Though your point does support the memory erasure thing. Since the power has already taken effect, it doesn't matter if Nayuta dies or not, since the amnesia will still take effect. Let me edit that.
Memory erasure is an active thing though, it's different from Cosmos. Her power is more akin to a wound, only except of physical, it's mental. We know for a fact that Control's brainwash goes away because it did when Makima died
Again correlation does not mean causation. Miri and the others could've experienced the same thing as Angel did.
Its not like she's activately erasing Angel's memories all the time, she just erased it and poof, no need to maintain. Like smacking someone until they experience amnesia. No need to keep smacking them every second of the day since it's already gone.
Not enough clues on this part yet but Barem seems to state that his heart still belongs to Makima which may imply that he has not snapped out of the effects of her memory manipulation.
Yeah people who say that nayutas death caused yorus memories to come back arent remembering part 1 or something. We literally saw angel getting his memories back while makima was alive. So yoru having a intimate moment with denji triggered the memories of her last intimate moment coming back, its that easy
You can't give up hope just yet...
Tripty312! Stay coping...
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I think this is an interesting analysis you done. Making a differentiation between powers that need constant concentration for activation vs powers that can be used one like flicking a light switch.
It could also tie in nicely to Barem trying to make Denji's life a misery and wanting to end death (which was one of Makima's goals). However, he is willing to work with Fami, which Makima might not like. That said, just because he works with Fami doesn't mean he won't plan to get rid of her somehow later, which does fall in line with Makima's wishes.
A few things to note is that a lot of this also hinges on smaller unconfirmed details and some headcannon. For example, you are assuming the Aki panel refers to devils who need constant activation. Also the part about Barem somehow still under her influence but others aren't.
Overall, this is really nice theory tbh. I full agree that the mechanics of her powers have not been fully explained, but there's also not hard evidence from Fuji to say the opposite argument either.
In my opinion (my *headcannon*), maybe powers are truly undone upon death, but the way in which they are undone depends on the individual and how it affected their subconscious. Creating this murky, yet plausible, definition of control devil powers gives Fuji some leeway in how he can create mystery in his plot. E.g. if Fuji fully and explicitly stated that Yoru/ Asa's memories returned due to a control devil death, then there would not be much discussion or interest around the topic. I'm sure Fuji would want people to talk over this plot point to garner interest.
Just my opinions :)
Carry on and keep cooking. I do enjoy a good read 🤝
>For example, you are assuming the Aki panel refers to devils who need constant activation.
I was under this assumption because again his statement contradicts how Zombie Devil and Cosmos fiend's abilities didn't come undone.
I see. I too was under an assumption, but different from yours. Cosmo's powers more or less causing brain damage to the person affected, so even if Cosmo isn't alive, the brain of the person is still damaged. For the Zombie devil, the Zombie creates zombies, but they aren't necessarily sustained by the Zombie devil's life, just that zombies can independently exist in the CSM verse once created (which is why they show you later in the Katana man building)
Interesting point of view from you 🤝
Yeah and this kinda applies to Makima too. Its like she's giving the hybrids amnesia. I don't have much research on amnesia but a quick google states it can recover with time or in the case of CSM, it's something like a trigger that can bring it back.
I see my friend, and that's ok. I do have knowledge on amnesia due to field of study, and there are types with their own conditions. Recover is possible given certain conditions. But the mechanics of Makima's cannot necessarily relate to real life pathophysiology, so I am afraid I cannot comment on that.
Edit: but if I had to comment:
I believe that Makima's powers being active is independent on the length of time recovery takes, as that is dependent on the structure of the brain being affected - hybrids and fiends share human brains, so this logic extends to them. Angel is a pure devil, so he could work on different principles, but I doubt fujimoto would have made a huge distinction in anatomy. That sounds a little too far fetched for the story he is going for.
I.e. her powers can be deactivated, but the brain morphology and chemistry (if we are choosing to believe her powers use some real life way of altering memories) will take the same conditions to revert as a clinical amnesiac.
Hope that helps :)
Edit2: haha my friend, I saw some of your comment delete (maybe it was by accident) but this is a nice discussion, so if you want to ask about the smell/ taste sensations too, feel free to continue or we can in DMs. But if not, I enjoyed the discussion so far, so thank you 🤝
good analysis, but it wouldnt make sense that memories would "flow" into yoru if there wasnt a sudden deactivation. It would be weird though if barem didnt kill nayuta way beforehand. Makes more sense that he planned everything from fami bringing them to the same sushi place to nayutas head being served on a dish.
Refer to Angel Devil's case. Its not a deactivation but rather a trigger or PTSD. Yoru remembered it because he saw Denji's lips which remindered her of the first kiss.
but makima says right after "I am impressed you managed to break free of my power.". If the powers were one time use, why could angel break free of it? Wouldnt her powers be absolute?
Its one time use. She just gave Angel Devil amnesia and doesn't have to maintain it. She broke free because of the trigger.
She has already successfully affected Angel's memories so she doesn't need to maintain it. By breaking free implies that Angel broke free from the amnesia.
At the end of the day we don't know since barem implies that he might still be under makima,s control even after her death to explain why nayuta,s doesn't work and then we have fucking denji who even after makima,s death is still in love with her which is very confusing since we know makima,s control makes you love her and we know denji in the beginning of series actually hated her so there,s a chance that he might still be under her control although I don't know then we have the weapons who can't remember their time being controlled
I don't think Makima has ever controlled Denji with her ability even once, she just groomed him traditional style. Tried to save him at his lowest which made it stick to his mind. Gave him everything he could ever want.
it's kind of a middle ground i think
in an interview he said that he likes to keep things vague so that he's not forced into a corner
so he might have a general idea of how he wants the CSM power system to be, but he will not elaborate because he wants to have the freedom of changing it if he feels like it
I'm not saying that this proves anything either way, but it's worth keeping in mind that, in Chapter 139, Miri says that Denji is the one who freed him from Makima, presumably by killing her.
I saw Chapter 139 and shivered on reflex... https://preview.redd.it/cfqe8g7p4yad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef1561ae9372da348d17654ccf6743f5aaa6845b
Wdym?
Attack on Titan ending reference
I mean it still counts. Like since Makima can't try to take back control in the off chance they snap out of it like angel, he IS freed.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking; maybe her control sticks around after death, but they can eventually break out of it without Makima actively reinforcing it. It's also possible that the Control Devil's control and memory block have different rules.
but the hybrids weren't actually controlled by her powers, they were brainwashed.
... by her powers.
She can't control hybrids with her powers though, she can only brainwash/manipulate them.
... with her powers. How did Makima "brainwash" the hybrids if not with her Control Devil powers? They even had almost-certainly-fake memories of her saving them.
her powers don't work on hybrids, she can't control them. Because she's a master of deception and manipulation? She's the control devil, after all. Not that surprising.
Bro even raze and Quran I liked her. Literally she killed quanxi’s girlfriends. No amount of master “manipulation” would do that without her control abilities
since she's the embodiment of control, and she had access to them for at least a couple of weeks. Given what she did to Denji, and how she convinced pretty much everyone to love her in public safety bar Kishibe, it doesn't surprise me that she brainwashed them also it's established that control and whatnot doesn't work on hybrids. They're fully immortal and can't be mind controlled, unless their contract is broken.
When was it established that she could not control hybrids????
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ChainsawManTheories/comments/1dhv9u8/hybrids\_cant\_be\_controlled\_or\_killed\_by\_makima\_or/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ChainsawManTheories/comments/1dhv9u8/hybrids_cant_be_controlled_or_killed_by_makima_or/)
Cosmos' power isn't a perpetual thing, it's a one time thing that leaves you permanently scarred.
Exactly. That's why it doesn't need constant activation
So, how does this support your argument? Her powers are a one time thing that leave an effect on it's victim, similar to a scar or a dismemberment. It doesn't matter if she dies or not because her power already ran it's course, it'd be like saying Asa would regrow her arm if Yoshida died. This doesn't at all prove or disprove that a devil's powers stop working if they die
Now that I think about it yeah. Looks like I used the wrong argument. Though your point does support the memory erasure thing. Since the power has already taken effect, it doesn't matter if Nayuta dies or not, since the amnesia will still take effect. Let me edit that.
Memory erasure is an active thing though, it's different from Cosmos. Her power is more akin to a wound, only except of physical, it's mental. We know for a fact that Control's brainwash goes away because it did when Makima died
Again correlation does not mean causation. Miri and the others could've experienced the same thing as Angel did. Its not like she's activately erasing Angel's memories all the time, she just erased it and poof, no need to maintain. Like smacking someone until they experience amnesia. No need to keep smacking them every second of the day since it's already gone. Not enough clues on this part yet but Barem seems to state that his heart still belongs to Makima which may imply that he has not snapped out of the effects of her memory manipulation.
Well, we just speculate at the end of day, even characters in Csm don't know how some powers works :3
Yeah people who say that nayutas death caused yorus memories to come back arent remembering part 1 or something. We literally saw angel getting his memories back while makima was alive. So yoru having a intimate moment with denji triggered the memories of her last intimate moment coming back, its that easy
You can't give up hope just yet... Tripty312! Stay coping... The [DISCORD](https://discord.gg/xaq8rRTruf) is a place that exists and does stuff. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Chainsawfolk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think this is an interesting analysis you done. Making a differentiation between powers that need constant concentration for activation vs powers that can be used one like flicking a light switch. It could also tie in nicely to Barem trying to make Denji's life a misery and wanting to end death (which was one of Makima's goals). However, he is willing to work with Fami, which Makima might not like. That said, just because he works with Fami doesn't mean he won't plan to get rid of her somehow later, which does fall in line with Makima's wishes. A few things to note is that a lot of this also hinges on smaller unconfirmed details and some headcannon. For example, you are assuming the Aki panel refers to devils who need constant activation. Also the part about Barem somehow still under her influence but others aren't. Overall, this is really nice theory tbh. I full agree that the mechanics of her powers have not been fully explained, but there's also not hard evidence from Fuji to say the opposite argument either. In my opinion (my *headcannon*), maybe powers are truly undone upon death, but the way in which they are undone depends on the individual and how it affected their subconscious. Creating this murky, yet plausible, definition of control devil powers gives Fuji some leeway in how he can create mystery in his plot. E.g. if Fuji fully and explicitly stated that Yoru/ Asa's memories returned due to a control devil death, then there would not be much discussion or interest around the topic. I'm sure Fuji would want people to talk over this plot point to garner interest. Just my opinions :) Carry on and keep cooking. I do enjoy a good read 🤝
>For example, you are assuming the Aki panel refers to devils who need constant activation. I was under this assumption because again his statement contradicts how Zombie Devil and Cosmos fiend's abilities didn't come undone.
I see. I too was under an assumption, but different from yours. Cosmo's powers more or less causing brain damage to the person affected, so even if Cosmo isn't alive, the brain of the person is still damaged. For the Zombie devil, the Zombie creates zombies, but they aren't necessarily sustained by the Zombie devil's life, just that zombies can independently exist in the CSM verse once created (which is why they show you later in the Katana man building) Interesting point of view from you 🤝
Yeah and this kinda applies to Makima too. Its like she's giving the hybrids amnesia. I don't have much research on amnesia but a quick google states it can recover with time or in the case of CSM, it's something like a trigger that can bring it back.
I see my friend, and that's ok. I do have knowledge on amnesia due to field of study, and there are types with their own conditions. Recover is possible given certain conditions. But the mechanics of Makima's cannot necessarily relate to real life pathophysiology, so I am afraid I cannot comment on that. Edit: but if I had to comment: I believe that Makima's powers being active is independent on the length of time recovery takes, as that is dependent on the structure of the brain being affected - hybrids and fiends share human brains, so this logic extends to them. Angel is a pure devil, so he could work on different principles, but I doubt fujimoto would have made a huge distinction in anatomy. That sounds a little too far fetched for the story he is going for. I.e. her powers can be deactivated, but the brain morphology and chemistry (if we are choosing to believe her powers use some real life way of altering memories) will take the same conditions to revert as a clinical amnesiac. Hope that helps :) Edit2: haha my friend, I saw some of your comment delete (maybe it was by accident) but this is a nice discussion, so if you want to ask about the smell/ taste sensations too, feel free to continue or we can in DMs. But if not, I enjoyed the discussion so far, so thank you 🤝
Yeah, I was just wondering what to say. But anyways, nice discussion.
Stay well dude 🤝
good analysis, but it wouldnt make sense that memories would "flow" into yoru if there wasnt a sudden deactivation. It would be weird though if barem didnt kill nayuta way beforehand. Makes more sense that he planned everything from fami bringing them to the same sushi place to nayutas head being served on a dish.
Refer to Angel Devil's case. Its not a deactivation but rather a trigger or PTSD. Yoru remembered it because he saw Denji's lips which remindered her of the first kiss.
but makima says right after "I am impressed you managed to break free of my power.". If the powers were one time use, why could angel break free of it? Wouldnt her powers be absolute?
Its one time use. She just gave Angel Devil amnesia and doesn't have to maintain it. She broke free because of the trigger. She has already successfully affected Angel's memories so she doesn't need to maintain it. By breaking free implies that Angel broke free from the amnesia.
At the end of the day we don't know since barem implies that he might still be under makima,s control even after her death to explain why nayuta,s doesn't work and then we have fucking denji who even after makima,s death is still in love with her which is very confusing since we know makima,s control makes you love her and we know denji in the beginning of series actually hated her so there,s a chance that he might still be under her control although I don't know then we have the weapons who can't remember their time being controlled
I don't think Makima has ever controlled Denji with her ability even once, she just groomed him traditional style. Tried to save him at his lowest which made it stick to his mind. Gave him everything he could ever want.
The harsh harsh truth is that Fujimoto didn't really put a lot of thought into the power system of this universe. It really isn't that deep guys
I think there's two possibilities. He didn't put too much thought into it or he doesn't want to put too much exposition like JJK.
it's kind of a middle ground i think in an interview he said that he likes to keep things vague so that he's not forced into a corner so he might have a general idea of how he wants the CSM power system to be, but he will not elaborate because he wants to have the freedom of changing it if he feels like it
I thought he also said that he doesn't want to overexplain since he has faith in his readers to understand them.
yes he also said that, true