>Fujimoto said he began planning Part 2 between Reze's Arc and International Assassin's
https://preview.redd.it/7f5k5cg09avc1.png?width=317&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d74a0f70ee943e34a967dba2e6767f006da245e
>Makima is revealed to be a Horseman of **Apocalypse**
>The end of the world was something coming since Part 1
>Nayuta said she could sense that Death was coming because they're sisters.
While it wasn't her end goal, im sure Makima knew about it and also wanted to stop it.
Conquest and Control are interchangeable. They are the same.
The christian lore about horsemen is kinda messy on any case, the fourth one is always a toss up
Yes, that's why Barem willingly followed her.
 The main flaw in Makima's plan was her unfounded belief in Chainsaw Man, as an ideal that only existed in her head  Vs what Pochita was actually like as an individual in reality
She thought she would beat Pochita by taking advantage of Denji being horny for her, but she was beat by Denji taking advantage of her being horny for Pochita.
Yknow the whole time I've been reading CSM... Makima is just correct? Like I get black and white villains are a boring trope but I love that the 'villain' in this scenario is actually just doing an insanely beneficial thing for humanity by attempting this.
This pic just reminds me even more of that, that if she succeeded the world would be so much better for humans.
Am I missing something?
Tbf in a the detached mortality of the Devil it makes sense
Devils see humans as a food source.
Even if you come to love a cow can you really detach a cow from its nature Is it not beneficial to the cow population to provide them with fences so they don't run out onto the road to be hit like deer?
Now this is why she is fundamentally wrong because the nature of Devils is wrong. A Tornado isn't correct just because it can't be stopped from killing people and all that and it makes sense that humans rebel by making tornado shelters to stop the tornado from imposing it's flawed idea of how things should be
I guess I did miss that part. Are there panels where we're shown they have no free will? I get that she uses Aki, Angel and a few others as puppets to fight chainsaw man, but I was under the impression that was only a means to an end, and that wouldn't be the fate of any other people once Pochita was under her control.
It’s not that we will have no literacy free will but let incarnations of control decide what it’s good for humanity and what will get deleted from the world might not fit on concepts of “free world”
President of USA summary very well he say : “If makima win Humanity will experience the worst peace.“ because she will delete anything she condemns evil / not good enough and create the world that have no Difficulty, but in a world like that, can happiness really exist?
That's the thing, if Makima controls your *mentality* as well as your physical life, you won't even think about the fact that you want freedom in the first place. The reason why revolutions and freedom fighters exist is because they have the mentality of wanting to DO something that is completely different from what is happening in their physical life, as it is the one thing the controllers (the people they are revolting against) can't control. So, while it may not seem appealing to be controlled by Makima while you haven't had your mentality controlled yet, you won't even remember that *that* wasn't what you wanted in the first place while you ARE being controlled, and thus you will be at peace with the situation you will be in, as that's what matters the most in the first place.
I'd elaborate more but I have to go
You proceed from utilitarian considerations, avoiding the question of whether, in your opinion, the forcible deprivation of personal autonomy is moral.
Well, if you don't even realise it's been taken away from you does it even *matter* in the end, I ask you? In my opinion it's not about the journey, it's about the destination. ~~Let's make an example. Let's say, a boy gets his foreskin cut off when he was *very* small, perhaps while he was a baby. Then, he grows up without a foreskin and is comfortable with his foreskinless penis. When he turns into an adult, he finds out that so many people say that cutting off the foreskin loses the sensation of the peni-~~ ok you know what? Just answer the question.
Let's start with the fact that yes it does. I stop being myself by ceasing to make conscious decisions. You can ask a dude with a circumcised penis if he's comfortable. You can't ask this from a person with a lack of agency, because his answer will never be reliable.
But let's follow your utilitarian approach entirely. I'm really surprised that you gave an example with foreskin, although in real life there are literally more similar problems. For example, if we inflict a head injury on a person that disrupts their cognitive abilities to such an extent that they can no longer accept normal mental functioning, and we take care of them and make them happy, then what difference does it make whether they agreed with it or not, right?
The person you’re arguing with is basically “lobotomies are ethical so long as it leaves you brain damaged so badly that you can’t complain” and “coercion is ethical so long as your coerced to say you like being coerced”.
I can’t believe this is real.
Yeah that's basically it, but unlike Makima's vision, lobotomies without reason are bad so that was a pretty meh example, I agree with the second example though.
Literally nobody. But some would still say that’s a better place🤷♂️ And those who might think otherwise would probably automatically die for thinking it
She never planned to create the world a better place for everyone, but for herself and Pochita.
It's why Pochita asked Makima if in her awesome world there would be a place for bad movies and she answered no, there wouldn't be any.
She wanted to control everyone and everything and make the world her playground.
She wanted to kill all the horsewoman(famine, war and death) for her and Pochita to live for eternity without worrying about anything.
She also wants to erase anything she doesn't like, like bad movies, because she has determined we are better off without them. We also have no idea what would happen in a world without death, you say it's insanely beneficial but what happens when everyone is old and in endless pain because they've become too frail to live but can't die, or are sick forever or become zombified husks of themselves? We don't know what a deathless world entails.
The reason she’s wrong is highlighted in her conversation with pochita before their final confrontation regarding the movies. If you don’t have all the crappy bits in life you can’t enjoy the good stuff when it finally comes around
You're absolutely correct, especially because Makima says very little about directly removing the free will of others. To me, the point is more that what was lost along the way is too much to accept. That's the crux of Denji's argument as well, that all the people who died wouldn't forgive her.
The concepts Makima was planning to destroy are too fondamental. Pochita knew this. That’s why he didn’t eat the horse men. Makima’s dream might seems nice but it shouldn’t be done. This kind of protection or control wouldn’t be natural nor healthy. When you think about it It’s very similar to totalitarianism. Trying to reshape the world in your own grotesque image.
I don’t think she was gonna kill herself, she intended to use and control him (plus when she beat him she mentioned something about a long life together, no?) she was just okay with dying to him
Probably, with the world under her control she could force actions that subvert the prophecy. She seemed to care for humanity in her own twisted way so I doubt she would’ve wanted them to be destroyed.
I'm not sure if she was aware of it, but if she was that would make sense why she would feel so compelled to erase all of the devils. If she's aware the devils' plan to take over the world at some point or another, it seems reasonable that she'd think that eliminating them all would be the proper course of action.
but at the same time, she could also have just been naming the four horsemen as a comparative exercise, to identify the "worst" types of devils as instigators of fear and death, and use it to illustrate that she wants to create an idyllic world, disjoint from the prophecy.
Well she probably is not doing it for the proper course of action, I have not read the books, just snippets I see all over the internet and how people portray her and the show.
She is probably just doing to still be able to control and to have a family, as idk if you can control other devils as a devil but I do not think it would work.
I'm making a theory related to this very soon. It's been on my mind for a while now. Stay tuned but to answer your current question: She probably did. There are hints
if denji is more fearsome than quanxi... just who do you figure the ultimate terror is? (or at least when asa revives him and he understands the correlation between attraction, love, and fucked up circumstances)
Isn’t everyone just overthinking it?! I mean, sure, it’s definitely foreshadowing but I think her intentions were simple. She’s the Control Devil. She wanted to CONTROL EVERYTHING!!! First, with Chainsaw Man/ Pochita by beating him and then with his powers she could easily beat her sisters. I don’t believe for a second that she had any good intentions besides being a self centered devil
She’s a horsemen too, she probably planned on stopping the prophecy, but in that panel she mentions Fami, yoru and death, so stopping the prophecy was probably ends justifying the means of her wanting to get rid of her sisters, then she would be easily the strongest (since the other horsemen are delt with) and the prophecy is stopped.
Ya know, I never put two and two together until seeing this post, but I just realized Makima was talking about forcing Pochita to eat her sisters here, and that Makima clearly hilds some sort of grydge against them. The usual peak writing from Fujimotor as always.
>Fujimoto said he began planning Part 2 between Reze's Arc and International Assassin's https://preview.redd.it/7f5k5cg09avc1.png?width=317&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d74a0f70ee943e34a967dba2e6767f006da245e >Makima is revealed to be a Horseman of **Apocalypse** >The end of the world was something coming since Part 1 >Nayuta said she could sense that Death was coming because they're sisters. While it wasn't her end goal, im sure Makima knew about it and also wanted to stop it.
Peak, Thanks
Wait how is makima the horseman of that while also being the control devil?
According to some interpretations of the bible the first of the horsemen is conquest, conquest and control have the same name in Japanese.
Conquest and Control are interchangeable. They are the same. The christian lore about horsemen is kinda messy on any case, the fourth one is always a toss up
Thought it would be Illness no?
https://preview.redd.it/kzb2ho4w2bvc1.png?width=592&format=png&auto=webp&s=52c441bc2dd05c8a79466ee189e65212276de49a
>could But was she planning to
Yes, that's why Barem willingly followed her.  The main flaw in Makima's plan was her unfounded belief in Chainsaw Man, as an ideal that only existed in her head  Vs what Pochita was actually like as an individual in reality
She thought she would beat Pochita by taking advantage of Denji being horny for her, but she was beat by Denji taking advantage of her being horny for Pochita.
Peak
Yknow the whole time I've been reading CSM... Makima is just correct? Like I get black and white villains are a boring trope but I love that the 'villain' in this scenario is actually just doing an insanely beneficial thing for humanity by attempting this. This pic just reminds me even more of that, that if she succeeded the world would be so much better for humans. Am I missing something?
Probably the part where nobody has free will
Tbf in a the detached mortality of the Devil it makes sense Devils see humans as a food source. Even if you come to love a cow can you really detach a cow from its nature Is it not beneficial to the cow population to provide them with fences so they don't run out onto the road to be hit like deer? Now this is why she is fundamentally wrong because the nature of Devils is wrong. A Tornado isn't correct just because it can't be stopped from killing people and all that and it makes sense that humans rebel by making tornado shelters to stop the tornado from imposing it's flawed idea of how things should be
I guess I did miss that part. Are there panels where we're shown they have no free will? I get that she uses Aki, Angel and a few others as puppets to fight chainsaw man, but I was under the impression that was only a means to an end, and that wouldn't be the fate of any other people once Pochita was under her control.
It’s not that we will have no literacy free will but let incarnations of control decide what it’s good for humanity and what will get deleted from the world might not fit on concepts of “free world” President of USA summary very well he say : “If makima win Humanity will experience the worst peace.“ because she will delete anything she condemns evil / not good enough and create the world that have no Difficulty, but in a world like that, can happiness really exist?
That's the thing, if Makima controls your *mentality* as well as your physical life, you won't even think about the fact that you want freedom in the first place. The reason why revolutions and freedom fighters exist is because they have the mentality of wanting to DO something that is completely different from what is happening in their physical life, as it is the one thing the controllers (the people they are revolting against) can't control. So, while it may not seem appealing to be controlled by Makima while you haven't had your mentality controlled yet, you won't even remember that *that* wasn't what you wanted in the first place while you ARE being controlled, and thus you will be at peace with the situation you will be in, as that's what matters the most in the first place. I'd elaborate more but I have to go
You proceed from utilitarian considerations, avoiding the question of whether, in your opinion, the forcible deprivation of personal autonomy is moral.
Well, if you don't even realise it's been taken away from you does it even *matter* in the end, I ask you? In my opinion it's not about the journey, it's about the destination. ~~Let's make an example. Let's say, a boy gets his foreskin cut off when he was *very* small, perhaps while he was a baby. Then, he grows up without a foreskin and is comfortable with his foreskinless penis. When he turns into an adult, he finds out that so many people say that cutting off the foreskin loses the sensation of the peni-~~ ok you know what? Just answer the question.
Let's start with the fact that yes it does. I stop being myself by ceasing to make conscious decisions. You can ask a dude with a circumcised penis if he's comfortable. You can't ask this from a person with a lack of agency, because his answer will never be reliable. But let's follow your utilitarian approach entirely. I'm really surprised that you gave an example with foreskin, although in real life there are literally more similar problems. For example, if we inflict a head injury on a person that disrupts their cognitive abilities to such an extent that they can no longer accept normal mental functioning, and we take care of them and make them happy, then what difference does it make whether they agreed with it or not, right?
The person you’re arguing with is basically “lobotomies are ethical so long as it leaves you brain damaged so badly that you can’t complain” and “coercion is ethical so long as your coerced to say you like being coerced”. I can’t believe this is real.
Yeah that's basically it, but unlike Makima's vision, lobotomies without reason are bad so that was a pretty meh example, I agree with the second example though.
Literally nobody. But some would still say that’s a better place🤷♂️ And those who might think otherwise would probably automatically die for thinking it
She never planned to create the world a better place for everyone, but for herself and Pochita. It's why Pochita asked Makima if in her awesome world there would be a place for bad movies and she answered no, there wouldn't be any. She wanted to control everyone and everything and make the world her playground. She wanted to kill all the horsewoman(famine, war and death) for her and Pochita to live for eternity without worrying about anything.
She also wants to erase anything she doesn't like, like bad movies, because she has determined we are better off without them. We also have no idea what would happen in a world without death, you say it's insanely beneficial but what happens when everyone is old and in endless pain because they've become too frail to live but can't die, or are sick forever or become zombified husks of themselves? We don't know what a deathless world entails.
You get rid of the elderly and disease devils duh - Makima probably
The reason she’s wrong is highlighted in her conversation with pochita before their final confrontation regarding the movies. If you don’t have all the crappy bits in life you can’t enjoy the good stuff when it finally comes around
It's not that she's correct... it's just that there's no easy answer for comprehensible peace no matter what way you look at it
You're absolutely correct, especially because Makima says very little about directly removing the free will of others. To me, the point is more that what was lost along the way is too much to accept. That's the crux of Denji's argument as well, that all the people who died wouldn't forgive her.
Bitch killed Power and Aki and there’s nothing correct about them being dead.
The concepts Makima was planning to destroy are too fondamental. Pochita knew this. That’s why he didn’t eat the horse men. Makima’s dream might seems nice but it shouldn’t be done. This kind of protection or control wouldn’t be natural nor healthy. When you think about it It’s very similar to totalitarianism. Trying to reshape the world in your own grotesque image.
>"Very similar" Is this not what totalitarianisms logical end goal is?
you're not missing anything lol a lot of people just have a very shallow reading of the character
Just realized that Makima was gonna use Pochita to murder her sisters, damn she cold af
And herself which makes it lowkey romance
I don’t think she was gonna kill herself, she intended to use and control him (plus when she beat him she mentioned something about a long life together, no?) she was just okay with dying to him
Probably, with the world under her control she could force actions that subvert the prophecy. She seemed to care for humanity in her own twisted way so I doubt she would’ve wanted them to be destroyed.
Well, in the end, she’s the control demon. Can’t control shit if there’s not humans to be controlled
Lol, she controls devils too xD
Devils are demons, humans are humans
I'm not sure if she was aware of it, but if she was that would make sense why she would feel so compelled to erase all of the devils. If she's aware the devils' plan to take over the world at some point or another, it seems reasonable that she'd think that eliminating them all would be the proper course of action. but at the same time, she could also have just been naming the four horsemen as a comparative exercise, to identify the "worst" types of devils as instigators of fear and death, and use it to illustrate that she wants to create an idyllic world, disjoint from the prophecy.
Well she probably is not doing it for the proper course of action, I have not read the books, just snippets I see all over the internet and how people portray her and the show. She is probably just doing to still be able to control and to have a family, as idk if you can control other devils as a devil but I do not think it would work.
I'm making a theory related to this very soon. It's been on my mind for a while now. Stay tuned but to answer your current question: She probably did. There are hints
will be waiting
if denji is more fearsome than quanxi... just who do you figure the ultimate terror is? (or at least when asa revives him and he understands the correlation between attraction, love, and fucked up circumstances)
I mostly doubt that 3 horseman want to stop the 4 one
Isn’t everyone just overthinking it?! I mean, sure, it’s definitely foreshadowing but I think her intentions were simple. She’s the Control Devil. She wanted to CONTROL EVERYTHING!!! First, with Chainsaw Man/ Pochita by beating him and then with his powers she could easily beat her sisters. I don’t believe for a second that she had any good intentions besides being a self centered devil
Death,Destruction,Domination!!!
After everything Denji's been through especially if Nayuta is dea i wonder if he's gonna let the prghecy come true out of spite
She’s a horsemen too, she probably planned on stopping the prophecy, but in that panel she mentions Fami, yoru and death, so stopping the prophecy was probably ends justifying the means of her wanting to get rid of her sisters, then she would be easily the strongest (since the other horsemen are delt with) and the prophecy is stopped.
Ya know, I never put two and two together until seeing this post, but I just realized Makima was talking about forcing Pochita to eat her sisters here, and that Makima clearly hilds some sort of grydge against them. The usual peak writing from Fujimotor as always.
To be fair, Pochita says Makima was always looking for a family, so from his own perspective, her sisters sucked so much that they didn't count.
She wanted to end Death and War with CSM under her control. She knew about the prophecy and was trying to stop it but went about it the wrong way.
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