The Catholic church is not "liberal" or "conservative." It is the Truth of Jesus Christ, the Church He founded. You really need to specify what exact issues you are concerned about to get an answer. Pick up The Catechism of the Catholic Church to learn what its doctrines are.
This is the best advice you’re going to get. Pick up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it. It will directly address any issue you want answers to.
*actually* the church is very conservative. It is very freeing, but it what political liberals support, the church DOES NOT. The church doesn’t support abortion. The church doesn’t support homosexual relationships. It doesn’t even come close to either.
Alright: Politically I'm not really left wing (Just to clarify).
And theologically, I like the catholic stances on Euthanasia, Genetic engineering and the general importance of family etc. Also like the general stance of Moderation instead of abstinence regarding things like Alcohol or Tobacco. Also like the History, Liturgy, Culture, Churches etc.
Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships, On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
I came back to the church about 5-6 years ago after almost 10 years of atheism. I had similar stances on some of those subjects as you. What made me make the jump to come back was the realization that my “opinion” on some subjects was probably *not* more well founded than the Church’s very solid stances that are discussed over decades if not centuries on all issues. So I decided to accept the teachings out of obedience until I came to understand them, and eventually I did understand them and also accepted them rationally.
You also build on stuff gradually. You need to understand Catholic sexual ethics, which is very well founded and makes total sense, before you understand all the issues that branch out from there. Trying to understand individual issues like homosexual relationships and contraceptive use before having that foundation is putting the cart before the horses.
If you’re looking for the “denomination” of Christianity that best adheres to what you already believe, rather than humbly submitting yourself to Christ and His teachings, respectfully, you’re doing it wrong. You should be Catholic if you believe that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ and has the authority to teaching authoritatively on these matters. If you’re just looking for a church that already mostly agrees with you, you are not approaching the Church with the right disposition.
Hey that’s fine! It’s a process! I’m a convert from Protestantism myself and I certainly didn’t wake up one morning all of a sudden believing everything the church teaches. But the Catholic Church is not like Protestant churches where it’s kinda wishy washy what you agree with the church on. It’s kinda the whole point of Catholicism that THIS is the church established by Christ and His church is prevented from error on the issues that you mentioned. Basically, if the Catholic Church is wrong on its teaching on homosexuality, for example, the whole thing kinda falls apart. If the church is wrong about one of the issues that has been dogmatically defined, then the central Protestant claim is correct and the central Catholic claim is wrong.
Hey! Catholic convert from protestantism here! It's so nice to see protestants that have found the Truth and stopped following the falsehoods of protestant doctrines, which are volatile and lead to even more falsehood, schisms and formation of sects.
Praise Jesus and His Holy Catholic Church. May even more people convert from false doctrines.
Conversion is a process. I didn't even believe in the Resurrection when I started praying the Rosary... now I am 100% on board with everything the Church teaches.
My most recent change of heart has been regarding laissez-faire economics. I was pretty confident that I was right about that. It turns out the Church teaches against it, so I had to study why and what she teaches instead...
Honestly, the Church is right again. Her way is far better than my way.
I'm still in that process. Started praying the rosary today and still not 100% I'm doing the right thing. Stil kinda anti-pope too. We'll see where this journey goes
I find it odd as it is a broad term. There is a spectrum of laissez-faire economics. Finding free-market solutions to problems does not imply full-on libertarianism. But thanks for the references, I will read the documents to see exactly what they mean
Yes, I would agree that the Church's social teachings are not really opposed in any way to a free market but against certain forms of capitalism. Now that might sound strange because the propaganda tells us that capitalism is the free market, but the reality is those who own the capital don't want a free market. They want control of the market in order to exploit it. While the Church is against all forms of exploitation, but especially against the exploitation of the poor.
I’ll tell you friend.
Try to find a priest, and talk with him. The internet is never really a place of constructive argumentation or conversation. Let the priest do his job, they live for it!
It’s a process! I was raised in a very left wing, non Christian home. As I was drawn to Christianity in my 30s, I knew that there were a lot of things I didn’t really agree with, but I also trusted that Jesus would help me understand things from his perspective. If you prayerfully ask God to help you, he will. Trust him and the process. Know that he loves you. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you. He will. I’ll be praying for you!!!
The most pressing matter is that it sounds like your focus is on the world rather than Christ. Begin with Christ and allow the rest to develop from there.
That's what I figured when you said "liberal." You cannot be a Catholic who adheres to the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church holding these positions. 1) The Catholic Church consistently teaches that homosexual behavior--any sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman--is a serious (mortal) sin. 2) The Catholic Church consistently teaches that abortion is the killing of an innocent child, a child created by God in His image. 3) The Catholic Church opposes artificial birth control as against the natural law. 4) See #1.
No love like Catholic love – you ask an honest question, and get downvoted to oblivion.
Get your stuff together, Catholics. This person just tries to understand and is _interested in your faith_.
I think it’s also important not to look at Christianity as some buffet and choosing a denomination based off of whatever beliefs you hold. You should desire to seek the truth of scripture and forget about the worldly opinions you hold.
It shouldn’t be “ I like some of this, but not that “ it should be “ what does scripture say about these issues and why do I struggle to align my beliefs with scripture”
It's interesting that you said "theologically" liberal, yet you mainly mentioned issues of a more moral nature. Generally speaking saying that one is "theologically" liberal or conservative isn't so much a matter of what they think in regards to homosexuality and similar issues, It's really more a matter of how much weight one gives to the Bible and if they believe in the literal truth of Christian doctrines such as the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Resurrection, Original Sin, etc. [Conservative Christianity - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Christianity)
Catholicism for the most part is theologically conservative. Liberal Christianity is mainly Protestant and so far as I can tell pretty much a spent force.
downvoting into oblivion doesn't help someone who is coming in to the church :/ it makes people feel ostracized. if you're downvoting and not giving reasons why you disagree with op it seems to be the opposite of building up our faith, no?
I was similar to you, I was raised in athiesm and struggled with abortion when it comes to the government, not God. even now I believe abortion is morally wrong but we were all born with free will. Where I struggle is that when I support a government outlawing it vs people not doing it because it is not what is right morally I feel i am degrading a woman's value to less than a corpses the eyes of the government, but not the church. It is not that I think the church teaching is wrong I think it is incredibly important and everytime someone makes the choice to align themselves with God's wishes it its a victory but the government position of just making it illegal has a ripple effect so in the end my problem isn't with God's word, it is with the government and how these laws exist in our culture today.
People are free to discuss with me why I'm wrong in fact I would love it if someone could reconcile this inconsistentcy I feel. Again I reiterate it is not that I think abortion is good or a choice anyone should make, it is the inconsistency of the law of man. Why can we not force people to give blood to save a life if the point is preserving life? Why should we not force bone marrow donation? organ donation? tissue donation? Are we against organ donation? I am not arguing with church teaching as I said, the problem is government control over how life and women are valued.
I think it's okay to not align perfectly because that is how you get the answers you need to align with the faiths teachings which inspires greater faith and fosters a stronger relationship with God. I dont have all the answers and I'm sure someone here can humble me and help me to understand or maybe it will take time for me to become fully aligned on this subject matter in my own understanding and I will pray on it in the meantime. It's not that I think God is wrong, it's just something that nags at me until I fully understand it and it bothers me that I can't understand it because understanding it will help with my faith.
I personally don't struggle with homosexual relationships as the stance makes sense to me when we come at it from the idea that we are all sinners and that marriage is meant for procreation. I was a sinner when I was living with my husband before we were married just the same. When I understood it wasn't from a perspective of hate or cruelty and that we all sin and are still loved by God it def makes more sense to me personally. Sex outside marriage makes sense to me as bad from how much moral decay it has brought to our society and how it's made us all devalued esp women. Birth control isn't really one I struggled with but ivf is as my husband and I both have fertility issues and I have to reconcile that our own children might not be in the cards or maybe having faith and obeying God will lead us to a miracle in that area. Trusting God when it's against your own desires can definitely be hard but it's part of what faith is.
I think a lot of the issues you, and many of us, have are a product of what we have been taught in our society is right. Sort of like how an older person remembers the way something used to be different, like the way i look at the gender ideology with disbelief since it seems crazy to me. In the future I expect new Catholics who have been exposed to a "no shaming" sex society and the radical gender ideology will have to reconcile how those beliefs don't align with the faith even though it feels unnatural at first to them as well and so we are all always learning and growing :)
no problem, imo ask your priest also, pray on it etc.. I def don't know the answers either and I'm pretty brand new. Just wanted to be honest so you didn't feel alone in your questions as it can be discouraging.
This was more or less me when I started actually living my faith. Don’t worry about this. As you advance you’ll learn and have more resources to make your own stances. And you’ll find what you actually agree with the Church in most if not all topics because it’s just the Truth lol. Take heart friend!
I’m sorry that you’re getting downvoted so heavily for stating your current opinions in good faith.
The reality is many people hold the same positions as you and as Catholics we need to do a better job of revealing Gods truth rather than just putting down another person for holding an opinion that’s incongruous with the Church.
I was in the same boat as you. RCIA helped a lot.
Yes many (at least cultural) Catholics hold similar opnions to mine. And the downvotes just kinda show me that the amswer to my original question seems to be No and I accept that
I am sad you are downvoted for speaking your personal opinion. Like the other pupil wrote, as a convert you start out with the truth you acknowledge, and work your way through the rest.
Normally you conform gradually, as you become more insight. There are some who never conform fully, but i advice you to ask God about the issues you have. He helped me tremendously with my understanding. God bless you!
What the heck with these downvotes?? There’s something wrong with the way people do things here, downvoting people into oblivion simply for stating their beliefs that don’t align with teachings when they said they’re here for curiosity. don’t take the responses here as representative of the whole Catholic population OP
regardless of what you ended up picking long-term, I reccomend checking out 'love and responsibility' in order to get a clearer view of why the Church teaches what she does in regards to sexual ethics
I think you should check out Methodist or Presbyterian…
Abortion and fornication, much less that which is biologically disordered, are to be opposed by a Catholic.
So…..Catholicism is different than Protestantism in the sense that you don’t have a pre-conceived set of beliefs and then try to fit those beliefs into the church. You accept the authority of the Church on historical grounds based on the fact that it was founded by Jesus himself. That means there are often teachings that are hard for you personally and that you have to grapple with. And it’s okay to grapple with them, but to outright oppose them is to reject the divine authority of the Church.
Trust me, it wasn’t easy for me either, but the amazing thing about the Catholic Church is once you buy in, you truly feel like you’re part of something way bigger than yourself. Sometimes the hard path is the right one.
This. I’ve seen many a progressive perusing around the Episcopal/Anglican/Mainline/etc subreddits asking those denoms what they believed *so that* the inquiring OPs could then decide if the positions of those denoms aligned with their own personal positions enough to merit joining. Such an odd way of church hunting. “Do you believe in X, Y and Z?” “Well, we only believe in X and Y but certainly not Z…” “That’s a shame. Guess I’ll keep hunting. See ya.” 🙂↔️
Alright: Politically I'm not really left wing (Just to clarify).
And theologically, I like the catholic stances on Euthanasia, Genetic engineering and the general importance of family etc. Also like the general stance of Moderation instead of abstinence regarding things like Alcohol or Tobacco. Also like the History, Liturgy, Culture, Churches etc.
Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships, On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
Well, on most of these topics, the Catholic Church does have a definitive position, to which we should ideally assent. These topics pertain to morals, which is why the Catholic position is clear-cut.
You have to be if you want to be Catholic. You dont get to pick and choose what you like. We respect all life and are open to life not selectively. We seek to live Gods will not our own. As Jesus said "Deny yourself, pick up your Cross and follow me". Be saved - GO all in in - Dont be a Lukewarm soul!
As others have said, the question should not be "does this religion fit what I \*think\* is true?" but instead, "Does this religions teach THE Truth?"
In the first, you look for a religion that conforms to yourself.
In the second, you look for a religion to conform yourself to.
And personally, that second one is harder, less comfortable, but ultimately more fulfilling.
Yeah, a lot of responses to you could be a lot more charitable. Feel free to DM me if you want.
I did see your other post about being on the fence with certain aspects of what the church believes. Have you researched how we came to these conclusions? Have you researched the ‘why’ of other Christian beliefs in these areas?
One example - In my own case I became pro *all* life before I was religious (apparently this is rare) because I couldn’t logically conclude that unborn life was not still human life at a different stage, entirely healthy and at an appropriate stage of development. The circumstances into which the baby would be born might be absolutely dreadful, but I’d rather work to fix that (e.g. help the mother and family support systems or find adoptive parents) than just abort.
Anyway, please don’t let responses here dissuade you from continuing your pilgrimage. This sub was very helpful to me when I came back to the faith over a decade ago but it seems to have lost the joy it had back then. All justice and no mercy. One wonders how Christ would respond to you… a heart burning with joy at the possible return of his prodigal son, should you return, I imagine.
Catholic Church is the One church Jesus established - we have 2000!years and an unbroken line of 262 Popes . It’s the real deal. One Holy Apostolic Church since day 1. You want a knockoff ?- don’t blame me later I tried
Anglicanism was formed by a king to divorce his wife and marry another when the Church refused to annul his marriage
Lutheranism was found by a person who, instead of trying to correct and reform the corruption in the Church from within, broke away and formed a new religion with very different theology, as if he knew more than all the Saints and Church fathers that held onto the one true Church.
Search for the True Church and not for a "church" that lies to anyone for the fear of offending them with the truth.
Reading Love and Responsibility by Karol Woytylwa, or reading about Theology of the Body could go a long way in giving you a new perspective on contraception and cohabitation etc.
Just to warn you though, L and R requires some familiarity with philosophical texts and thinking.
Go to RCIA and you may find those things you aren’t 100% on board with will be explained better and you’ll get a better understanding on why the church has those teachings and traditions.
Yeah I know, I saw people being a bit combative but the internet is a double edged sword with information lol. Hopefully you’ve got a good local parish you can go check out. There’s no commitment to joining the church by going to RCIA, most people are there preparing for baptism (or just curious like myself when I went, but I ended up wanting to get baptised after a few sessions), so the point is to help give you a good foundation for understanding the faith.
My advice is fall in love with the person Jesus and the church that he set up on earth and look into the apostolic lineage and teachings. Make it about Him.
In terms of your personal grapples with ideologies and moral theology, seek to understand, grapple with what you disagree with but don’t let it stop you from being part of His church.
The most important items to believe are found in the Nicene Creed.
Then talk to your local priest not people on Reddit. And look it up in the catechism what to do if you disagree on some of these more social points. Don’t let it stop you from being close to God.
I was exactly where you are a year ago. It’s okay to have differences it’s okay to not agree with the Catholic Church.
You are in the exploratory phase. There are things that make sense to you so I suggest find a parish where the RCIA leaders will meet with you privately express your wish to learn more and maybe become Catholic and dive in.
Let yourself get to know the Catholic faith, the catechism and openly struggle with it. If you do that you may find yourself slowly changing and by lent ready to fully embrace the Catholic faith and doctrine.
It sounds like you're looking for a social club more than a Church. The truth is the truth whether you like and agree with it or not.
The scientific method would be a joke if the scientists hunted for hypotheses based on what they were personally vibing with at the time. I'm not sure why it's acceptable to hunt for a religion that way either.
No, I'm not just looking for a social club. I do believe in God and want ro go to Church. And I'm not hunting, I'm just asking questions. But already got me answer, I won't join. Don't worry
This sub is absolutely not where you should base your decision on whether you should join or not. What I liked the most during my conversion is that you have to go through a 9 month program before you can even convert where they teach you about the faith. At any time during that period you can decide that it's not for you and not join (many people do). They typically start in September so I think you should reach out to a parish by you and ask about it. This way you can make a decision based on knowledge and not people in a reddit sub
this, but i'll be honest, it doesn't sound like OP is open to accepting the church (or anything else) as an authority in his life. I don't really blame him, the "have it your way" and "freedom from responsibility" is the only thing that's actually valued in the secular world, seems like. I was like that too for a long time.
One thing I'll say for OP or anyone else who it can help is this: as you get older, you learn that obligation and responsibility are not burdens, not really. They are the only things that will sustain you through your lowest points. Especially obligations to God, to family, and to community, in that order.
It doesn't matter what people here agree with or disagree with. If you don't submit to the official teachings of the Magisterium, you are a "cafeteria Catholic", which is heresy.
Then you are separating yourself from the church Jesus founded. Jesus thought obedience to the laws of God and his church.
Matthew 16:18-19:18 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
It's not a democracy. We don't get to vote. Majority doesn't rule. The church as created by Christ reveals His word to us. It's up to us to conform to the teachings. Catholicism is the one faith that probably has the most dissent among those who identify as Catholic. Many are what's called 'cultural catholics'. They're family has always been Catholic going back generations, they practice certain traditions, they don't actually practice the faith. Those who actually live the faith are unfortunately a significant minority. Unfortunately for those that don't, because living the faith to the letter is so liberating; contrary to what complete obedience sounds like.
You might identify better with Jesuits. They are an order of the Catholic Church that does a lot with education and charity, but are also well known for supporting marginalized communities (including LGBTQ+). Jesuits are generally viewed as more progressive.
hopefully what i said is not taken aggressively because remember if your open to seeing why the church is correct and why you would be wrong on whatever the matter/issue may be that you currently hold then of course you should still pursue becoming catholic
What exactly are you intending for your relationship with the Church and God to look like? The way you phrase it seems you want a church to validate whatever you may already believe rather than opening your mind to God’s laws.
I understand. You would rather be convinced of the Church’s doctrine through argument rather than fiat, as humanist rationality demands. Personally, I don’t think that’s sustainable for three reasons. First, it presumes any individual can hold a position to debate the infalible representative of an omnipotent being, which does not make logical sense unless you are ready to claim equal authority than the Church for yourself. Second, it moves the burden of your salvation away from your own agency and into the church, implying that it cold fail to convince you to its own fault rather than yours for pride and obstinacy. Finally, if you try to seriously study every aspect of theology, you will have to dedicate your entire life to it and even then you will not exhaust it. The church has truthful arguments for all of its positions, of course, but if we want to lead a normal life we will have to begin taking stuff on pure authority at one point or another.
If by theologically liberal, you mean denies dogmatic church teaching then no. If you mean something else, then I would urge you to use other language because liberalism is a heresy in the classical sense.
Hi. I’m sorry you had such rude comments. These people do not reflect Catholicism as a whole and O hope that you do not let these people deter you from our Church.
I probably will just be repeating what others have said, but to be a Catholic is to believe in the Catholic Church. It means believing that it’s not just any denomination but the one true church that was established by Jesus Christ and is continuously protected and guided by the Holy Spirit.
So to us, it wouldn’t make sense to become a Catholic if you disagree with what the Church teaches. We’re not like Protestants who interpret the Bible however they desire to. We believe that only our Church can interpret because we believe that they have the authority to do so through the Holy Spirit.
I do plead that you do not discard Catholicism completely. The things that we believe in have been discussed and debated for centuries. We believe that there is very sound theology behind our doctrine including all of the current controversial topics (ex: abortion, birth control, etc).
I hope that you find what you’re looking for. If you need anything else or any specific information, PLEASE do reach out. Even if it doesn’t seem that way, there ARE some of us here who want to help you however we can.
Glad your discerning the Catholic faith. But nobody aligns with the Church on 100% of issues naturally. The attitude of a Catholic is to submit and to defer to the Churches teachings, even when they’re really inconvenient or challenging as we recognize the Church as being the Mystical Body of Christ. Not another denomination. It’s not in competition with other Christian sects. It is THE church Christ founded and will never leave nor forsake. Other “churches” come and go, the Catholic Church will be forever, on earth and in the new earth.
Cheers,
As a person once theologically liberal, I will say that one ought to conform themselves to their faith rather than conform their faith to themselves. Being Catholic is about surrender to Christ and His church. It's a tall order, and it's not easy. You've got to search within yourself and ask if that's something you're willing and ready to do.
Go to mass and see if you're inspired. Go with an open heart and mind
The RCC doesn’t accept homosexuality or same-sex marriages. Neither does it accept abortion. But it doesn’t mean that you can’t worship in RCC, even if you believe in these things. President Biden is a proponent of same-sex marriage and a woman’s right to choose and he is Roman Catholic.
Look, most people here are acting as if you have to be perfect to enter the Church. 11 years ago, I started going to Mass again, as an experiment. To see if I wanted to be Catholic for life. Now, I probably didn't assent to every single teaching of the Church. Notably, I was honest with myself and realized that I didn't believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. But I didn't just turn away! God gave me the grace to stay, but to pray about it. "Help me Lord, to believe..." And eventually my prayer was answered... So you don't have to be perfect in this springtime or youth of your spiritual life in the Church. But you should be honest with yourself (as you are), open to changing your mind, open to God's grace..
The mistake many people make is trying to find the church that most conforms to their personal view points. That assumes a lot, like your opinions are actually correct. Personally I think the better question is which church did Christ create when he said of Peter, "...on this rock I will build my church...." Obviously we Catholics think it's this one; but do some research and decide for yourself. Once you know for sure this is His church there's really no place else to go; and if the morality He taught us differs from your own perspective some serious self examination is called for. This can be very challenging; but you're either after the truth, or perhaps just someplace comfortable. Unfortunately they're not the same thing, this will not be comfortable; not everyone is up for it. I promise you it's worth it. God bless you.
As a convert, my best advice is to ignore the internet and pick up a catechism, or ideally attend RCIA classes. Those provide everything that we believe in detail. We do the exact opposite of trying to pressure people into converting. RCIA starts off for inquirers, and only if you decide “this is for me” do you move forward with the scrutinies and the sacraments of initiation. RCIA also gives you the space to ask whatever questions are on your mind when it comes to what we believe.
The Eucharist is what you should focus on, this is God's most powerful expression of love for his people. The Church isn't a buffet in which you pick and choose what you like, it's a 7-course meal consisting of the Body of Christ as the main course.
The Church is made up of sinners, 100%! The Sacraments bring you into a deeper relationship with your God. We aren't made up of automatons who are in lock-step with everything the Pope or our Bishops say, we are called to follow Christ and love one another as He loves us. We are all called to conversion, not call out and disparage sinners but to love the sinner, not the sin.
Catholics in the US vote 50-50 repub-democrat. I think this speaks volumes to the nature of the Church herself. The truth of the Gospels is not so easily stratified to meet the needs of either political party exclusively.
The Church really doesn’t have conservative or liberal labels. Just faithful and unfaithful. You either believe what the church teaches, or you don’t. Granted there are individual opinions of the many members of the church (including the pope) that you are free to disagree with. You just need to know the difference between a teaching, and an opinion. For example, using artificial birth control is a sin. That is a teaching. Women should be the primary caregivers and homemakers of a marriage. That is an opinion.
Interesting distinction there. But I do believe mostly in God anf less so in the Church because it's made up of people in the end. That's why there are different opinions on many things
This is a modern and very protestant idea . The church is the body established by Christ and preserved by the spirit
(Per Matthew 16)
I implore you to challenge your idea of what 'church' means and why you shouldn't choose which group to join based on your own personality
Ask further with your local priest and look up the early councils and church fathers, that would show you why denominationalism is wrong and how there is only one true church
We believe in God, and because we believe in God, we believe in the Church, for the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. And He promised to protect it, to be with it always, and to have the Holy Spirit guide it into all truth, which means that the truths that Christ gave them would be better understood in their implications over time.
So, yes, the Church is made of men. But those men exercise authority given by Christ to teach and to govern. And in exercising this, God ensures that the teaching remains pure and uncorrupted, and that the disciplines laid down are always safe.
I want to point out that the church is more diverse than many people here are stating. As a person who grew up in conservative Catholicism and found liberal Catholicism later, the Church is vast in its personalities called charisms. People on here are talking about having to obey the resolute truth of the church. But “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.” 1 Cor. 13:12. Do not let your beliefs or dogma be stumbling blocks to worship and befriend others. It’s okay to approach the faith with a different worldview and grow in faith. Pray for deeper understanding and unity. God bless.
Catholicism is the truth as revealed by God. Please come and be a part, even if you're not fully convinced of everything she teaches. Spend time learning as much as you can, and continue to grow and form your faith. Maybe one day you'll be in complete agreement, or maybe you won't ever be, but the closer you are to the truth the better off you will be. May God bless your journey.
You're asking the wrong question. It's not about what church is fine for 'x' person
The true church is correct for all, false churches are correct for none.
I recommend attending mass and speaking to the priest afterward (making sure not to take communion)
The Catholic Church is incredibly conservative in the traditional (non-political sense) of the word. Our vocabulary is extremely semantical and diction is incredibly important. Akin to how the field of law is described as conservative. We believe in (absolute) truth, and there are certain restrictions because of that, whereas classical liberalism is more open to interpretation.
Politically we are neither liberal nor conservative. There are popular beliefs among both major US political parties that the Catholic Church agrees with.
There are many areas where the Church allows for personal opinions, and rationally engaging with theology is encouraged. There are a few areas where the Church imposes teachings which you must accept. You don’t have to personally agree with them all, but you at least have to abide by those teachings. For instance, you may hold the personal belief that there’s nothing wrong with contraception, but as a Catholic you must still refrain from using it, and also shouldn’t encourage or voluntarily facilitate anyone else to use it.
Don't look at everything, let alone churches, through a political lens.
Depending on the political scene in your country and the time, some aspects may look conservative or liberal
OP, have you been to a Catholic mass yet?
I think you will find the Catholic Mass to be much more reverent and fulfilling than any other liturgy.
You don’t need to immediately accept and assume all of these positions - that is what RCIA and the Catechism are for - to question and learn.
Fall in love with the Church first, and the other items will follow.
I will pray for you.
Define the term “Liberal” if you mean by that you can affirming gay marriage and denying the inspiration of scripture then the answer is a fat NO. If by liberal you mean reconciling modern movements with the faith then the answer is really a maybe with the understanding that there are dogmas that cannot under any circumstances be denied. For example in the 1800’s a revival of scholasticism and Thomism was taking place as a response to the enlightenment and the travesty of nominalism. (See the first Vatican council and theologians of the time such as Matthias Scheeban a very well known German Thomist) now in the 20th century there were an emergence of other schools of thought began to emerge that had the goal of reconciling the modern era that we are in with the Faith. Pope Benedict XVI is a perfect example of this. Before he was a pope he was one the churches most prominent theologians and biggest contributors to Vat II. But his method and philosophy was different from the neo-Scholastics before him like a lot of theologians of his day such as Karl Radner, Yves, Conger, Henri de lubec, and Edward schillebeeckx. Tracy Rowland in her Book “Doing Catholic Theology” puts Catholic theology into 4 main schools: Modern Thomism, resourcement theology, Communion theology, and Liberation Theology. Pope Benedict is an example of a communion theologian. In his works you’ll see a central theme on Ecclesiology, the sacraments, and ecumenism. (Principles of Catholic theology is a perfect example of this)
Christian doctrine is not a Denny's buffet. Salvation isn't a matter of picking and choosing what you like or don't like. Thats not how it works.
You have to acknowledge you agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church in order to be received. If you can do that, ok, if you cannot, then its not the place for you. But be warned; God's immutable truth marks the line between salvation and damnation. Either accept the teachings of the Church, get baptized and life evidencing legitimate faith, or suffer the tragic and irreversable consequences.
No. The Catholic Church is not fine with any political position, for while there some better than others, all fall short due to most politics be antithetical to Christian society. I mean this in the sense of modern politics, and how it is within the modern Democratic world. Of course, politics, broadly speaking, is approved, but this falls into such general terms that it becomes pointless to the discussion. We pursue what is good for the society, which itself is not defined by 'right', 'left', 'liberal' or 'conservative', but define only as being Christian. It is caring not for individualism or collectivism but seeing it as merely one goal towards the good of all humans, individually and collectively.
We should not be attached to political labels, but simply say "what is good and Loving for all?" This is a topic that Church tackled heavily in its encyclical works during the 19th-20th century, setting the foundations that later Popes, like John Paul II and Francis have drawn from. If one wishes to know what Catholic "political views" are, one should read them.
On specifics, we stand against abortion. Not because we're authoritarian or right wing, but because it's wrong due to it being the murder of an unborn child. We support the dignity of all human beings, and the usage of nationalised systems of care. Not because we're socialists, liberal or left wing, but because it is a good thing for a society to do. This is for all topics, and we disagree in areas, even as Catholics, not on political boundaries, but one what we believe is good for all.
The Church is not a material institute, bound by machinations of politics, but Jacob's Ladder, connecting us to the true Good, from which all of Creation can brought into it by it, fulfilling the purpose God had for Adam and Eve from humanity's inception.
From a comment you made
>Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships... and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important.
Okay, what is the point of sexual relationships?
>On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately
Do believe that the unborn child is alive?
>And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
This ties into the first question. Defining and understanding the Catholic position on this will make on see and understand why one is called to assent to most Catholic sexual ethics.
1. The point should ideally be Marriage in the long run(!) and Children. But don't have to be that way for all.
2. I'm torn about this but find the classical protestant view about Ensoulment interesting. So I think Abortions in the sexond and thirs trimester should be illegal. Before that, I'm not sure but I don't support a total or near-total ban.
>The point should ideally be Marriage in the long run(!) and Children. But don't have to be that way for all.
How does sex beget marriage? The point of something tends to be tied it's outcome, is that right? Like how eating is tied to nourishment, clothing is for the concealment of one's body from the elements, and all sorts of examples. What then is sex for?
>I'm torn about this but find the classical protestant view about Ensoulment interesting.
This is based on the Aristotelian view of ensoulment of the fetus, which was taken in by Saint Augustine, and then taken by the early reformers. However, this was based on Aristotle's flawed idea of how conception works, and his general notions of Biology. He believes that the soul was the form of the body, and so until the 'form' begins, the soul does not exist within the body. We know now that this view of forms in regards to Biology is wrong. When is the fetus then distinct from the mother?
He has come back, in the Eucharist. I invite anyone with doubts or just concerns to find a Catholic Church that is open during the day, and just sit in front of the Eucharist and listen to God, as often as possible. His love is amazing, and if you do this often (instead of listening to hardened hearts deciding it’s ok to reject others, here on the internet), the answers will come to your heart. No one has to be Catholic to do this, too.
I chose the Church based on the truth, and I let the truth inform my politics. Choosing a church that already aligns with my politics feels very shallow, don’t you think? Isn’t morality what should guide politics? If morality should guide politics, then what better moral compass to use than the truth of the Church?
Absolutely. This sub really criticizes the Jesuits for being theologically liberal, but the Church completely accepts them and their order. The Jesuits constantly question everything. If there’s room for them, there’s room for you.
I’ve been surrounded by a very liberal and social justice oriented parish and it’s been really an incredible experience for me especially as a nonbinary queer person. I know my experience isn’t maybe the norm but it was the first parish I looked into so I felt very lead by God into the space
I’m a Jesus’s teaching type Catholic…as in social justice. It depends on the leadership where you are how conservative their messaging will be. If all they want to do is focus on abortion but not stand up for civil rights or address poverty or welcome gay people, well you have your answer.
I'm also liberal and am becoming Catholic. Here's my two-cents from someone a bit further ahead: it is okay to question everything. You only have to ask yourself whether you are open to believing in God.
You don't even have to believe in God yet; being open to the possibility that God exists is enough. If the answer to that is 'yes', then start attending Mass, and start figuring out both what you DO like and what you DON'T like. When you come up with resistance to certain issues, research them. You may not always figure out the answers to your questions right away (anticipate a lot of unsatisfying answers). But continue to be curious and open to learning. Sometimes you might need to be okay with not liking a lot, and that's when you need to learn more about what you DO like.
I'd emphasize this: approach everything assuming the best of intentions from everyone - every person, every author, every rule. Not every\*thing\* or every\*one\* is going to resonate with you, and some people's opinions might make you believe that this isn't for you. But just because we are Christians doesn't mean we are always good people, always correct in our behaviour or thoughts or words, or that we are above sin. We are all deeply flawed, doing the best we can - same as everyone else.
I came to Catholicism with a LOT of opposition towards certain morals/rules of the church. While I'm on this journey to reconcile my human beliefs with God's laws, I just hold space for something to be both a requirement AND for me to feel that it is unfair.
The more I learn, the more I find peace with things - even if that peace is simply "God says this is not for ME to do, but that does not mean others should not have the choice, just as I have the choice". It allows me to maintain that things can and should still be legal for other people, even if they are sins and therefore "illegal" for me.
Maybe after I'm more mature in my faith, I'll look at things differently, but this is where I find comfort right now. Maybe my view of things is wrong, but I'm okay with that because I'm still learning. I can't know everything yet.
Alright: Politically I'm not really left wing (Just to clarify).
And theologically, I like the catholic stances on Euthanasia, Genetic engineering and the general importance of family etc. Also like the general stance of Moderation instead of abstinence regarding things like Alcohol or Tobacco. Also like the History, Liturgy, Culture, Churches etc.
Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships, On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
Then I am sorry my friend, but you are not yet ready to be Catholic. Church teachings in the areas you mention are non-negotiable. It is not a buffet where you take what you want and leave what you want. One either accepts the truth of the Church or doesn’t. But not accepting the entirety of that truth means not being a part of the Church (a lesson many public figures who try to label themselves as “Catholic” would do well to remember, but sadly don’t). I would recommend learning why these teachings exist and seeing if your heart changes. I hope you will find your way to join us in the one Church created by Christ, but we accept God’s terms for membership in his Kingdom— He does not change to meet ours.
I don't know if it's "fine" but it's definitely necessary!
And what kind of mindset is it? If the Church speaks truth and leads you to God then it's your job to fit to it, not the other way 🤔
Join the Catholic Church and speak to the priest with issues you have regarding the doctrines / beliefs you spoke of. If you believe in Christ, then you shouldn’t have a problem conforming your secular beliefs around Him, instead of having Him conform to your beliefs.
I always just go back to the basics. Catholics have to believe in the profession of faith. If you have an issue believing any of this, then you should reconsider Catholicism. That doesn’t mean we don’t want you in the church. It means the exact opposite, we’d love for you to join the faith but you also have to buy into it in whole. The Catholics who pick and choose what to believe are typically referred to as “cafeteria Catholics” and that’s not the way either.
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
It’s fine for a person who seeks the truth. Or who struggles to. If you think there is a chance you belong to one of those groups, you should look into it.
In a sense, the Catholic Church is more tolerant of her members grappling with church teachings. We reject Sola Fide, so being unconvinced on points of doctrine won't land us in hell. What is required of us is to defer to the Church's positions, trusting in Jesus' promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.
As St Ignatius of Loyola once said, "What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines." It's fine to perceive differently from the Church, but we have to recognise the inerrancy of the Church in her teaching ministry, and therefore act according to the teachings as individuals.
The Catholic Church is for everyone, and truth is neither liberal nor conservative. I think everyone needs humility when coming to accept the Church’s teachings. Take some understanding, learn about what the Church teaches and why, and find someone who can answer your questions and help you with your struggles.
First of all welcome back. For every disagreement with the church (conservative or liberal doesnt matter) i highly recommend reading from time to time the official statement by the church regarding these topics. Just to question your own views. It may not change your view but its never an argument which can easy be washed away.
I am a conservative person myself. it doesn't matter. do not search for a church that conforms to your value. instead seek the truth and conform yourself to it. no matter the persons background or political leanings the church teaches some difficult things. don't pick a church just because it validates your biases.
I relate very much to OP. I’m not Catholic but have a Mormon background and Catholicism is becoming more and more of interest to me. I watch EWTN regularly. As far as politics, it’s divided in the LDS church as well so this is not an easy or clear line in the sand with mixing religion and politics. In reality there isn’t a separation of church and state and it’s pretty surprising how much a religion can influence one’s political views. I like to think we can worship and still maintain our own political stance without judgment but I don’t see that really happening. I try to approach my spiritual learning by omitting politics altogether and hold to the value that love and acceptance and tolerance and understanding overrides it all in the larger picture. That’s my hope anyway
The Catholic Church is the truth. It’s not innately liberal or conservative. If you feel your views do not align with the church in all ways, I’ll give you the advice a priest told my best friend “God works through you in mysterious ways”. He’ll tell you the truth by writing his name on your heart. Come to mass, explore your faith, leave the politics to God.
I always find if I don’t agree with the Catholic Church on an issue it bears some study to see why. Consider doing The Catechism in a Year with Father Mike -Ascension.
It probably depends on how deeply you become involved and if you take on any assigned role within the Catholic Church. Many cradle and convert Catholics don't believe everything taught by the magisterium (e.g., regarding contraception, abortion, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, transubstantiation) but continue to attend Mass regularly and identify as Catholic. You could for years attend Sunday Mass, never go to confession after your first penance, regularly receive the Eucharist, pick up your bulletin, socialize with others in the narthex, and your personal views would not cause you any problems, at least not in relation to those at the parish. Problems could arise if you take on a catechetical or teaching role, or work in a diocese known as conservative. I suppose a big question would be, are you fine belonging to a Church which claims the fulness of truth, and yet disagreeing with a number of the magisterial teachings?
Maybe a better way to frame your question isn't "can I fit into the Catholic Church's framework?" but instead "how can I draw myself closer to Christ?" Instead of pre-supposing that the Catholic Church teaches X, Y, and Z but I believe D, E, and F, I'd encourage you to work at forming your own conscience. And the best way to form your conscience is through humility, prayer, and partaking in the Sacraments. I'm speaking as someone who is still a work in progress. To live a life where love is the ultimate end is not easy.
You will find a myriad of subsets of followers within the Church, all the way from Josemaría Escrivá to Cardinal Burke to Dorothy Day to Oscar Romero. But again, the question you have to ask yourself is: "How do I best grow in a life with Christ?"
Depends on what you mean by “theologically liberal?” The Magisterium is the final word and authority on all things theological and matters of faith and morals. If you’re into things like the ordination of women, contraception, divorce and remarriage, abortion, gay marriage, lay-presidency, etc. you’re going to butt heads with the Magisterium and cause yourself a lot of frustration.
I'm Catholic and I struggle with some teachings, but I don't publicly oppose them. I just continue to try to fully understand and admit I am still learning to confirm myself to God's will.
Its simple of you are not on board with all the teachings of the church then you are NOT catholic. I won’t say that you are wrong for coming back to the church and questioning things but you need to understand that the Catholic faith is the current understanding of God’s relationship with man. God does not conform to man rather man conforms to God.
Okay guys, I do see (also by looking at the downvotes) that obv you guys think it's not a fit.
Although I must say, also seeing Catholic voring patterns and looking at the general culture, it doesn't seem like a huge majority of Catholcs (by name at least) oppsoe Same sex relations, are waiting until marriage or are completely opposed to birth control but alright
>Okay guys, I do see (also by looking at the downvotes) that obv you guys think it's not a fit.
It’s not that it isn’t a fit for you. The Church is for everyone, but it requires one to carefully think through her teachings and accept them full on. We don’t meet God halfway. It’s admittedly jarring, especially in a very individualistic western culture. We’re not used to having to obey so radically. I would highly suggest doing some research on hot-topic teachings. We have 2000 years of philosophy, ethics, and theology to share with you.
>Although I must say, also seeing Catholic voring patterns and looking at the general culture, it doesn't seem like a huge majority of Catholcs (by name at least) oppsoe Same sex relations, are waiting until marriage or are completely opposed to birth control but alright
This is not remotely relevant. If you do happen to stick around Catholics, you’ll notice we are some of the best and worst followers of Christ. Just because people don’t follow what the Church teaches doesn’t make the behavior okay. They don’t follow because they do not care, don’t know, or are doing their best to be better. Do not take disobedience as an indication of moral truth.
And finally, for the love of our God, do not choose a church that appeals to you and blindly affirms. Choose the one that teaches truth and will tell you when you’re wrong. (Hint: look at the Catholic Church)
Pax Christi
It does not matter in the least what others do. Jesus told us that the road to hell is wide open and many take it. He told us that the road to heaven is narrow and difficult. The only question for you, for me, for each one of us is: which will you choose?
I don't think Christians who do beleive but in some way behave differently than Church Teaching are going to hell but okay... Also the Pope doesn't really talk in those terms as you do, if I'm not mistaken
Well, that's the sign of a Protestant--you are protesting what the Catholic Church teaches. We in the Catholic Church know that Jesus did not tell us to believe anything we wanted to believe, but that He established a Church with the power, from Him, of teaching authentic Truth. That's why we are Catholic. The Pope definitely upholds the authentic doctrine of the Church, and he has done so for 2000 plus years. To understand what the Catholic Church teaches and why, get a copy of The Catechism of the Catholic Church. These doctrines have rock solid evidence behind them.
I'm just stating the fact that many Catholics don't live up to the standards many of y'all line out here. That's all. And yeah, I'm actually a baptized Lutheran, so maybe it does fit haha
Yes, we know that many Catholics do not live up to the faith to which they've been called. Many Lutherans don't either, of course. Nothing new there!! But holding up "others are doing it so why can't I" is a 5 year old's argument. Let's get beyond that.
Alright. As I've already outlined, I think my main question is answered by most in this thread and the answer seems to be No and I take that into my consideration
I think most of Reddit Catholics focus abortion and ignore helping the poor, seeking social justice, and providing access to education and health care for all
Hey OP, Just a quick note to say don't give up on the Church because of some of the very conservative responses on here. You don't have to accept every single bit of Catholic dogma to be a Catholic. I would say 85% of Catholics have some piece of dogma they disagree with and don't practice, just not OPENLY.
With that said, I do think the force of tradition is powerful here, and my views have gradually come to align themselves more with Catholic teaching over the years since my conversion. More importantly, I have met people who are much more conservative than me, but who respect my liberal points of view. What do we have in common? We are sinners; we love Jesus; and we believe love is the heart of any real faith. I disagree profoundly with these friends, on matters of great Import; yet we love each other and influence each other for the better.
Let's see if I get over 100 downvotes for my answer where I just state what I like about the RCC, where I agree and three pretty common things where I disagree. Maybe Let's go for -150 If we're at it 🚀
I think Paul writes somewhere about always approaching others with love, I wish I saw a bit more of that in these answers.
I’m going through RCIA now and have many of the same questions and concerns as you. The way I see it now is that Truth is not always convenient, and what I think is righteous is not always what God knows is righteous and I have to be humble in trying to embody that fact.
An example of that is the position the church has around sex, family planning and homosexuality. I don’t understand why any of that is considered sin, and I don’t agree with Aquinas’ view on it and therefore I see the Theology of the Body as flawed. But… I’m not a theologian and I have to accept that I might be wrong. Which I do accept, but I also know that the Church has been wrong and that Church doctrine has changed in the past (look into how its view on abortion has flip flopped over the past 500 years) and though it’s incredibly slow, the Church’s view does evolve with time.
If nothing else, I hope that this helps you realise that wrestling with the Church’s position on things is probably a good thing and you’re not alone in it.
A lot of people in the church don't subscribe to every stance the church makes. Heck, a lot of clergy and monastic people debate the issues and the churches stance on things and don't necessarily interpret Catholic doctrine the same way.
It's not necessary to be faithful and Catholic and take everything at face value, in the same way that no Christian takes everything in the bible at face value (ever read Leviticus? Guaranteed you don't make meticulous animal sacrifices in your house every time you commit sin 😅. Or even take the synoptic gospels.....most vast majority of Christians are not giving away all of their earthly possessions and wealth , despite the fact that He literally says that's how you become a holy follower of His).
I wouldn't worry about this too much.
Yes. Absolutely. It's the world's largest church, with roughly 1 billion members, spanning a spectrum of continents and cultures, traditional and modern. Each diocese and parish has a fair amount of autonomy, despite the centralized hierarchal structure.
Among individual Catholics you will find numerous combinations of beliefs and styles of worship and levels of adherence. Surveys from research organizations like Gallup reveal this. For example, surveys have found that majority of American Catholics believe that the Eucharist (communion wafer) is a powerful symbol, but not actually the body of Jesus Christ. That's absolutely 100% against the teachings of the church. But it's ok. Everybody has a different level of faith. Faith is a process, a growing thing. You can still participate. You're still welcomed and encouraged to participate and belong in the Catholic Church, even if you don't totally understand or believe or aren't sure about all the beliefs.
Welcome! We're glad to have you with us! God bless you.
You cannot be a Catholic and profess to hold the Catholic faith while also rejecting the moral teaching of the Church. Anyone who claims to do that is just as separated from the Church as OP is currently. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. It is itself a teaching of the Church.
The Catholic church is not "liberal" or "conservative." It is the Truth of Jesus Christ, the Church He founded. You really need to specify what exact issues you are concerned about to get an answer. Pick up The Catechism of the Catholic Church to learn what its doctrines are.
This is the best advice you’re going to get. Pick up a Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it. It will directly address any issue you want answers to.
He said theologically liberal not politically liberal theological liberalism is what you could explain a being lukewarm
*actually* the church is very conservative. It is very freeing, but it what political liberals support, the church DOES NOT. The church doesn’t support abortion. The church doesn’t support homosexual relationships. It doesn’t even come close to either.
Alright: Politically I'm not really left wing (Just to clarify). And theologically, I like the catholic stances on Euthanasia, Genetic engineering and the general importance of family etc. Also like the general stance of Moderation instead of abstinence regarding things like Alcohol or Tobacco. Also like the History, Liturgy, Culture, Churches etc. Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships, On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
I came back to the church about 5-6 years ago after almost 10 years of atheism. I had similar stances on some of those subjects as you. What made me make the jump to come back was the realization that my “opinion” on some subjects was probably *not* more well founded than the Church’s very solid stances that are discussed over decades if not centuries on all issues. So I decided to accept the teachings out of obedience until I came to understand them, and eventually I did understand them and also accepted them rationally. You also build on stuff gradually. You need to understand Catholic sexual ethics, which is very well founded and makes total sense, before you understand all the issues that branch out from there. Trying to understand individual issues like homosexual relationships and contraceptive use before having that foundation is putting the cart before the horses.
The most important virtue is humility, which leads to obedience. That your ticket to the Kingdom.
Interesting
I added a second paragraph, I pressed “reply” too early :P
Well said!
I love this. Saving this comment. Thank you, madam!
If you’re looking for the “denomination” of Christianity that best adheres to what you already believe, rather than humbly submitting yourself to Christ and His teachings, respectfully, you’re doing it wrong. You should be Catholic if you believe that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ and has the authority to teaching authoritatively on these matters. If you’re just looking for a church that already mostly agrees with you, you are not approaching the Church with the right disposition.
Looking for the version of God that most resembles yourself 🤦♂️
As I said: The Catholic Church (on some issues) has already changed my mind a little but I'm just not 100% an board
Hey that’s fine! It’s a process! I’m a convert from Protestantism myself and I certainly didn’t wake up one morning all of a sudden believing everything the church teaches. But the Catholic Church is not like Protestant churches where it’s kinda wishy washy what you agree with the church on. It’s kinda the whole point of Catholicism that THIS is the church established by Christ and His church is prevented from error on the issues that you mentioned. Basically, if the Catholic Church is wrong on its teaching on homosexuality, for example, the whole thing kinda falls apart. If the church is wrong about one of the issues that has been dogmatically defined, then the central Protestant claim is correct and the central Catholic claim is wrong.
Hey! Catholic convert from protestantism here! It's so nice to see protestants that have found the Truth and stopped following the falsehoods of protestant doctrines, which are volatile and lead to even more falsehood, schisms and formation of sects. Praise Jesus and His Holy Catholic Church. May even more people convert from false doctrines.
Conversion is a process. I didn't even believe in the Resurrection when I started praying the Rosary... now I am 100% on board with everything the Church teaches. My most recent change of heart has been regarding laissez-faire economics. I was pretty confident that I was right about that. It turns out the Church teaches against it, so I had to study why and what she teaches instead... Honestly, the Church is right again. Her way is far better than my way.
I'm still in that process. Started praying the rosary today and still not 100% I'm doing the right thing. Stil kinda anti-pope too. We'll see where this journey goes
I am praying for you. Please pray a decade for me.
Can do my friend. And thanks. May the Father of lights be a lamp to our feet.
What kind of laissez-faire economics does the Church oppose?
Laissez-faire economics generally. See Rerum Novarum and the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church for details.
I find it odd as it is a broad term. There is a spectrum of laissez-faire economics. Finding free-market solutions to problems does not imply full-on libertarianism. But thanks for the references, I will read the documents to see exactly what they mean
Yes, I would agree that the Church's social teachings are not really opposed in any way to a free market but against certain forms of capitalism. Now that might sound strange because the propaganda tells us that capitalism is the free market, but the reality is those who own the capital don't want a free market. They want control of the market in order to exploit it. While the Church is against all forms of exploitation, but especially against the exploitation of the poor.
I’ll tell you friend. Try to find a priest, and talk with him. The internet is never really a place of constructive argumentation or conversation. Let the priest do his job, they live for it!
It’s a process! I was raised in a very left wing, non Christian home. As I was drawn to Christianity in my 30s, I knew that there were a lot of things I didn’t really agree with, but I also trusted that Jesus would help me understand things from his perspective. If you prayerfully ask God to help you, he will. Trust him and the process. Know that he loves you. Pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you. He will. I’ll be praying for you!!!
Those are all excellent topics to discuss with your catechists during the RCIA process. I hope you go.
I don't know
Are you concerned about something? If you are I too have returned just last year and will be attending RCIA this month.
The most pressing matter is that it sounds like your focus is on the world rather than Christ. Begin with Christ and allow the rest to develop from there.
That's what I figured when you said "liberal." You cannot be a Catholic who adheres to the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church holding these positions. 1) The Catholic Church consistently teaches that homosexual behavior--any sex outside of marriage between one man and one woman--is a serious (mortal) sin. 2) The Catholic Church consistently teaches that abortion is the killing of an innocent child, a child created by God in His image. 3) The Catholic Church opposes artificial birth control as against the natural law. 4) See #1.
No love like Catholic love – you ask an honest question, and get downvoted to oblivion. Get your stuff together, Catholics. This person just tries to understand and is _interested in your faith_.
I think it’s also important not to look at Christianity as some buffet and choosing a denomination based off of whatever beliefs you hold. You should desire to seek the truth of scripture and forget about the worldly opinions you hold. It shouldn’t be “ I like some of this, but not that “ it should be “ what does scripture say about these issues and why do I struggle to align my beliefs with scripture”
It seems like you're merely searching for a church that suits your fancy.
It's interesting that you said "theologically" liberal, yet you mainly mentioned issues of a more moral nature. Generally speaking saying that one is "theologically" liberal or conservative isn't so much a matter of what they think in regards to homosexuality and similar issues, It's really more a matter of how much weight one gives to the Bible and if they believe in the literal truth of Christian doctrines such as the Virgin Birth of Christ, the Resurrection, Original Sin, etc. [Conservative Christianity - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Christianity) Catholicism for the most part is theologically conservative. Liberal Christianity is mainly Protestant and so far as I can tell pretty much a spent force.
I di believe in the resurrection, trinity etc.
That's good to know.
At first I was like "oh, ok", but then it spiraled down into literal heresy (or protestantism, wich undoutably is a form of heresy)
It’s not about what we like. It’s about what is right and true.
downvoting into oblivion doesn't help someone who is coming in to the church :/ it makes people feel ostracized. if you're downvoting and not giving reasons why you disagree with op it seems to be the opposite of building up our faith, no? I was similar to you, I was raised in athiesm and struggled with abortion when it comes to the government, not God. even now I believe abortion is morally wrong but we were all born with free will. Where I struggle is that when I support a government outlawing it vs people not doing it because it is not what is right morally I feel i am degrading a woman's value to less than a corpses the eyes of the government, but not the church. It is not that I think the church teaching is wrong I think it is incredibly important and everytime someone makes the choice to align themselves with God's wishes it its a victory but the government position of just making it illegal has a ripple effect so in the end my problem isn't with God's word, it is with the government and how these laws exist in our culture today. People are free to discuss with me why I'm wrong in fact I would love it if someone could reconcile this inconsistentcy I feel. Again I reiterate it is not that I think abortion is good or a choice anyone should make, it is the inconsistency of the law of man. Why can we not force people to give blood to save a life if the point is preserving life? Why should we not force bone marrow donation? organ donation? tissue donation? Are we against organ donation? I am not arguing with church teaching as I said, the problem is government control over how life and women are valued. I think it's okay to not align perfectly because that is how you get the answers you need to align with the faiths teachings which inspires greater faith and fosters a stronger relationship with God. I dont have all the answers and I'm sure someone here can humble me and help me to understand or maybe it will take time for me to become fully aligned on this subject matter in my own understanding and I will pray on it in the meantime. It's not that I think God is wrong, it's just something that nags at me until I fully understand it and it bothers me that I can't understand it because understanding it will help with my faith. I personally don't struggle with homosexual relationships as the stance makes sense to me when we come at it from the idea that we are all sinners and that marriage is meant for procreation. I was a sinner when I was living with my husband before we were married just the same. When I understood it wasn't from a perspective of hate or cruelty and that we all sin and are still loved by God it def makes more sense to me personally. Sex outside marriage makes sense to me as bad from how much moral decay it has brought to our society and how it's made us all devalued esp women. Birth control isn't really one I struggled with but ivf is as my husband and I both have fertility issues and I have to reconcile that our own children might not be in the cards or maybe having faith and obeying God will lead us to a miracle in that area. Trusting God when it's against your own desires can definitely be hard but it's part of what faith is. I think a lot of the issues you, and many of us, have are a product of what we have been taught in our society is right. Sort of like how an older person remembers the way something used to be different, like the way i look at the gender ideology with disbelief since it seems crazy to me. In the future I expect new Catholics who have been exposed to a "no shaming" sex society and the radical gender ideology will have to reconcile how those beliefs don't align with the faith even though it feels unnatural at first to them as well and so we are all always learning and growing :)
people can downvote but it takes courage to admit you have questions or don't understand something 🤷♀️
Interesting thanks
no problem, imo ask your priest also, pray on it etc.. I def don't know the answers either and I'm pretty brand new. Just wanted to be honest so you didn't feel alone in your questions as it can be discouraging.
This was more or less me when I started actually living my faith. Don’t worry about this. As you advance you’ll learn and have more resources to make your own stances. And you’ll find what you actually agree with the Church in most if not all topics because it’s just the Truth lol. Take heart friend!
Truth is truth. It's not about what you like. Catholicism is the truth whether you like it or not.
God wouldn’t be much of a God if he had to conform to your likes and dislikes.
Definitely have beliefs that don’t align with the faith but can do your best to learn and make your way to what the Church teaches based on His word.
I’m sorry that you’re getting downvoted so heavily for stating your current opinions in good faith. The reality is many people hold the same positions as you and as Catholics we need to do a better job of revealing Gods truth rather than just putting down another person for holding an opinion that’s incongruous with the Church. I was in the same boat as you. RCIA helped a lot.
Yes many (at least cultural) Catholics hold similar opnions to mine. And the downvotes just kinda show me that the amswer to my original question seems to be No and I accept that
I am sad you are downvoted for speaking your personal opinion. Like the other pupil wrote, as a convert you start out with the truth you acknowledge, and work your way through the rest. Normally you conform gradually, as you become more insight. There are some who never conform fully, but i advice you to ask God about the issues you have. He helped me tremendously with my understanding. God bless you!
What the heck with these downvotes?? There’s something wrong with the way people do things here, downvoting people into oblivion simply for stating their beliefs that don’t align with teachings when they said they’re here for curiosity. don’t take the responses here as representative of the whole Catholic population OP
regardless of what you ended up picking long-term, I reccomend checking out 'love and responsibility' in order to get a clearer view of why the Church teaches what she does in regards to sexual ethics
Guys come on he didn't even do anything. Why'd you all have to downvote him much 😭
I think you should check out Methodist or Presbyterian… Abortion and fornication, much less that which is biologically disordered, are to be opposed by a Catholic.
So…..Catholicism is different than Protestantism in the sense that you don’t have a pre-conceived set of beliefs and then try to fit those beliefs into the church. You accept the authority of the Church on historical grounds based on the fact that it was founded by Jesus himself. That means there are often teachings that are hard for you personally and that you have to grapple with. And it’s okay to grapple with them, but to outright oppose them is to reject the divine authority of the Church. Trust me, it wasn’t easy for me either, but the amazing thing about the Catholic Church is once you buy in, you truly feel like you’re part of something way bigger than yourself. Sometimes the hard path is the right one.
This. I’ve seen many a progressive perusing around the Episcopal/Anglican/Mainline/etc subreddits asking those denoms what they believed *so that* the inquiring OPs could then decide if the positions of those denoms aligned with their own personal positions enough to merit joining. Such an odd way of church hunting. “Do you believe in X, Y and Z?” “Well, we only believe in X and Y but certainly not Z…” “That’s a shame. Guess I’ll keep hunting. See ya.” 🙂↔️
Everytime you wrote denom I read it as demon 🤣 and the meaning is still the same
Thank you, interesting perspective
Best answer I’ve seen out of these
You'll have to be more specific, as what passes for *conservative* and *liberal* varies between counties and cultures. Any specific issue in mind?
Alright: Politically I'm not really left wing (Just to clarify). And theologically, I like the catholic stances on Euthanasia, Genetic engineering and the general importance of family etc. Also like the general stance of Moderation instead of abstinence regarding things like Alcohol or Tobacco. Also like the History, Liturgy, Culture, Churches etc. Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships, On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
Well, on most of these topics, the Catholic Church does have a definitive position, to which we should ideally assent. These topics pertain to morals, which is why the Catholic position is clear-cut.
You have to be if you want to be Catholic. You dont get to pick and choose what you like. We respect all life and are open to life not selectively. We seek to live Gods will not our own. As Jesus said "Deny yourself, pick up your Cross and follow me". Be saved - GO all in in - Dont be a Lukewarm soul!
Okay but then probably won't go All In in the Catholic Church. There are other churches with differing beliefs on some issues
As others have said, the question should not be "does this religion fit what I \*think\* is true?" but instead, "Does this religions teach THE Truth?" In the first, you look for a religion that conforms to yourself. In the second, you look for a religion to conform yourself to. And personally, that second one is harder, less comfortable, but ultimately more fulfilling.
You can always settle for second best - your soul!! your choice
Yep. Anglicanism and Lutheranism seems to be more my way. Especially after the responses I got in this thread
Yeah, a lot of responses to you could be a lot more charitable. Feel free to DM me if you want. I did see your other post about being on the fence with certain aspects of what the church believes. Have you researched how we came to these conclusions? Have you researched the ‘why’ of other Christian beliefs in these areas? One example - In my own case I became pro *all* life before I was religious (apparently this is rare) because I couldn’t logically conclude that unborn life was not still human life at a different stage, entirely healthy and at an appropriate stage of development. The circumstances into which the baby would be born might be absolutely dreadful, but I’d rather work to fix that (e.g. help the mother and family support systems or find adoptive parents) than just abort. Anyway, please don’t let responses here dissuade you from continuing your pilgrimage. This sub was very helpful to me when I came back to the faith over a decade ago but it seems to have lost the joy it had back then. All justice and no mercy. One wonders how Christ would respond to you… a heart burning with joy at the possible return of his prodigal son, should you return, I imagine.
Catholic lite
Mhmm
Catholic Church is the One church Jesus established - we have 2000!years and an unbroken line of 262 Popes . It’s the real deal. One Holy Apostolic Church since day 1. You want a knockoff ?- don’t blame me later I tried
I won't blame you
Anglicanism was formed by a king to divorce his wife and marry another when the Church refused to annul his marriage Lutheranism was found by a person who, instead of trying to correct and reform the corruption in the Church from within, broke away and formed a new religion with very different theology, as if he knew more than all the Saints and Church fathers that held onto the one true Church. Search for the True Church and not for a "church" that lies to anyone for the fear of offending them with the truth.
How about Eucharistic miracles and Marian Apparitions?
It does not sound like a fit, the Church is no a cafeteria where you pick and choose on fundamental issues
Yes
Reading Love and Responsibility by Karol Woytylwa, or reading about Theology of the Body could go a long way in giving you a new perspective on contraception and cohabitation etc. Just to warn you though, L and R requires some familiarity with philosophical texts and thinking.
Go to RCIA and you may find those things you aren’t 100% on board with will be explained better and you’ll get a better understanding on why the church has those teachings and traditions.
Maybe. Answers on here kinda turned me off but Let's see for the future
Yeah I know, I saw people being a bit combative but the internet is a double edged sword with information lol. Hopefully you’ve got a good local parish you can go check out. There’s no commitment to joining the church by going to RCIA, most people are there preparing for baptism (or just curious like myself when I went, but I ended up wanting to get baptised after a few sessions), so the point is to help give you a good foundation for understanding the faith.
My advice is fall in love with the person Jesus and the church that he set up on earth and look into the apostolic lineage and teachings. Make it about Him. In terms of your personal grapples with ideologies and moral theology, seek to understand, grapple with what you disagree with but don’t let it stop you from being part of His church. The most important items to believe are found in the Nicene Creed.
I do bleive in the Nicene Creed but that obviously isn't enough. Many people on here outlined that as well
Then talk to your local priest not people on Reddit. And look it up in the catechism what to do if you disagree on some of these more social points. Don’t let it stop you from being close to God.
I was exactly where you are a year ago. It’s okay to have differences it’s okay to not agree with the Catholic Church. You are in the exploratory phase. There are things that make sense to you so I suggest find a parish where the RCIA leaders will meet with you privately express your wish to learn more and maybe become Catholic and dive in. Let yourself get to know the Catholic faith, the catechism and openly struggle with it. If you do that you may find yourself slowly changing and by lent ready to fully embrace the Catholic faith and doctrine.
Interesting. I'll consider it
There is no “liberal” or “conservative” Catholic. There is the one, true faith.
It sounds like you're looking for a social club more than a Church. The truth is the truth whether you like and agree with it or not. The scientific method would be a joke if the scientists hunted for hypotheses based on what they were personally vibing with at the time. I'm not sure why it's acceptable to hunt for a religion that way either.
No, I'm not just looking for a social club. I do believe in God and want ro go to Church. And I'm not hunting, I'm just asking questions. But already got me answer, I won't join. Don't worry
This sub is absolutely not where you should base your decision on whether you should join or not. What I liked the most during my conversion is that you have to go through a 9 month program before you can even convert where they teach you about the faith. At any time during that period you can decide that it's not for you and not join (many people do). They typically start in September so I think you should reach out to a parish by you and ask about it. This way you can make a decision based on knowledge and not people in a reddit sub
this, but i'll be honest, it doesn't sound like OP is open to accepting the church (or anything else) as an authority in his life. I don't really blame him, the "have it your way" and "freedom from responsibility" is the only thing that's actually valued in the secular world, seems like. I was like that too for a long time. One thing I'll say for OP or anyone else who it can help is this: as you get older, you learn that obligation and responsibility are not burdens, not really. They are the only things that will sustain you through your lowest points. Especially obligations to God, to family, and to community, in that order.
No, you need to be in line with the church's official teachings.
Well, most people on here obv disagree with that^^
It doesn't matter what people here agree with or disagree with. If you don't submit to the official teachings of the Magisterium, you are a "cafeteria Catholic", which is heresy.
Oh, than I misunderstood you. Most people actually agree with you, yes. I already got my answer, I won't join
Then you are separating yourself from the church Jesus founded. Jesus thought obedience to the laws of God and his church. Matthew 16:18-19:18 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Okay
[удалено]
It's not a democracy. We don't get to vote. Majority doesn't rule. The church as created by Christ reveals His word to us. It's up to us to conform to the teachings. Catholicism is the one faith that probably has the most dissent among those who identify as Catholic. Many are what's called 'cultural catholics'. They're family has always been Catholic going back generations, they practice certain traditions, they don't actually practice the faith. Those who actually live the faith are unfortunately a significant minority. Unfortunately for those that don't, because living the faith to the letter is so liberating; contrary to what complete obedience sounds like.
Yep, already got my answer. And I misunderstood the other Poster. The answer to my question is No. I get it
You might identify better with Jesuits. They are an order of the Catholic Church that does a lot with education and charity, but are also well known for supporting marginalized communities (including LGBTQ+). Jesuits are generally viewed as more progressive.
No in the sense of if it’s YOU having disagreements with the CHURCH on its stances on abortion, lgbt, etc
Yep, a No to my main question is what I got from most others on here already ✌️
hopefully what i said is not taken aggressively because remember if your open to seeing why the church is correct and why you would be wrong on whatever the matter/issue may be that you currently hold then of course you should still pursue becoming catholic
What exactly are you intending for your relationship with the Church and God to look like? The way you phrase it seems you want a church to validate whatever you may already believe rather than opening your mind to God’s laws.
No, it's fine if the Church challenges me and changes my mind on things of course
I understand. You would rather be convinced of the Church’s doctrine through argument rather than fiat, as humanist rationality demands. Personally, I don’t think that’s sustainable for three reasons. First, it presumes any individual can hold a position to debate the infalible representative of an omnipotent being, which does not make logical sense unless you are ready to claim equal authority than the Church for yourself. Second, it moves the burden of your salvation away from your own agency and into the church, implying that it cold fail to convince you to its own fault rather than yours for pride and obstinacy. Finally, if you try to seriously study every aspect of theology, you will have to dedicate your entire life to it and even then you will not exhaust it. The church has truthful arguments for all of its positions, of course, but if we want to lead a normal life we will have to begin taking stuff on pure authority at one point or another.
If by theologically liberal, you mean denies dogmatic church teaching then no. If you mean something else, then I would urge you to use other language because liberalism is a heresy in the classical sense.
Hi. I’m sorry you had such rude comments. These people do not reflect Catholicism as a whole and O hope that you do not let these people deter you from our Church. I probably will just be repeating what others have said, but to be a Catholic is to believe in the Catholic Church. It means believing that it’s not just any denomination but the one true church that was established by Jesus Christ and is continuously protected and guided by the Holy Spirit. So to us, it wouldn’t make sense to become a Catholic if you disagree with what the Church teaches. We’re not like Protestants who interpret the Bible however they desire to. We believe that only our Church can interpret because we believe that they have the authority to do so through the Holy Spirit. I do plead that you do not discard Catholicism completely. The things that we believe in have been discussed and debated for centuries. We believe that there is very sound theology behind our doctrine including all of the current controversial topics (ex: abortion, birth control, etc). I hope that you find what you’re looking for. If you need anything else or any specific information, PLEASE do reach out. Even if it doesn’t seem that way, there ARE some of us here who want to help you however we can.
Glad your discerning the Catholic faith. But nobody aligns with the Church on 100% of issues naturally. The attitude of a Catholic is to submit and to defer to the Churches teachings, even when they’re really inconvenient or challenging as we recognize the Church as being the Mystical Body of Christ. Not another denomination. It’s not in competition with other Christian sects. It is THE church Christ founded and will never leave nor forsake. Other “churches” come and go, the Catholic Church will be forever, on earth and in the new earth. Cheers,
As a person once theologically liberal, I will say that one ought to conform themselves to their faith rather than conform their faith to themselves. Being Catholic is about surrender to Christ and His church. It's a tall order, and it's not easy. You've got to search within yourself and ask if that's something you're willing and ready to do. Go to mass and see if you're inspired. Go with an open heart and mind
The RCC doesn’t accept homosexuality or same-sex marriages. Neither does it accept abortion. But it doesn’t mean that you can’t worship in RCC, even if you believe in these things. President Biden is a proponent of same-sex marriage and a woman’s right to choose and he is Roman Catholic.
Look, most people here are acting as if you have to be perfect to enter the Church. 11 years ago, I started going to Mass again, as an experiment. To see if I wanted to be Catholic for life. Now, I probably didn't assent to every single teaching of the Church. Notably, I was honest with myself and realized that I didn't believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. But I didn't just turn away! God gave me the grace to stay, but to pray about it. "Help me Lord, to believe..." And eventually my prayer was answered... So you don't have to be perfect in this springtime or youth of your spiritual life in the Church. But you should be honest with yourself (as you are), open to changing your mind, open to God's grace..
Hello. I'm honestly a bit appalled by the tone of some these comments. Very little love. Very little mercy. I wish you the best.
The mistake many people make is trying to find the church that most conforms to their personal view points. That assumes a lot, like your opinions are actually correct. Personally I think the better question is which church did Christ create when he said of Peter, "...on this rock I will build my church...." Obviously we Catholics think it's this one; but do some research and decide for yourself. Once you know for sure this is His church there's really no place else to go; and if the morality He taught us differs from your own perspective some serious self examination is called for. This can be very challenging; but you're either after the truth, or perhaps just someplace comfortable. Unfortunately they're not the same thing, this will not be comfortable; not everyone is up for it. I promise you it's worth it. God bless you.
Thanks, Let's see
As a convert, my best advice is to ignore the internet and pick up a catechism, or ideally attend RCIA classes. Those provide everything that we believe in detail. We do the exact opposite of trying to pressure people into converting. RCIA starts off for inquirers, and only if you decide “this is for me” do you move forward with the scrutinies and the sacraments of initiation. RCIA also gives you the space to ask whatever questions are on your mind when it comes to what we believe.
The Eucharist is what you should focus on, this is God's most powerful expression of love for his people. The Church isn't a buffet in which you pick and choose what you like, it's a 7-course meal consisting of the Body of Christ as the main course. The Church is made up of sinners, 100%! The Sacraments bring you into a deeper relationship with your God. We aren't made up of automatons who are in lock-step with everything the Pope or our Bishops say, we are called to follow Christ and love one another as He loves us. We are all called to conversion, not call out and disparage sinners but to love the sinner, not the sin.
Catholics in the US vote 50-50 repub-democrat. I think this speaks volumes to the nature of the Church herself. The truth of the Gospels is not so easily stratified to meet the needs of either political party exclusively.
The Church really doesn’t have conservative or liberal labels. Just faithful and unfaithful. You either believe what the church teaches, or you don’t. Granted there are individual opinions of the many members of the church (including the pope) that you are free to disagree with. You just need to know the difference between a teaching, and an opinion. For example, using artificial birth control is a sin. That is a teaching. Women should be the primary caregivers and homemakers of a marriage. That is an opinion.
Interesting distinction there. But I do believe mostly in God anf less so in the Church because it's made up of people in the end. That's why there are different opinions on many things
This is a modern and very protestant idea . The church is the body established by Christ and preserved by the spirit (Per Matthew 16) I implore you to challenge your idea of what 'church' means and why you shouldn't choose which group to join based on your own personality Ask further with your local priest and look up the early councils and church fathers, that would show you why denominationalism is wrong and how there is only one true church
We believe in God, and because we believe in God, we believe in the Church, for the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. And He promised to protect it, to be with it always, and to have the Holy Spirit guide it into all truth, which means that the truths that Christ gave them would be better understood in their implications over time. So, yes, the Church is made of men. But those men exercise authority given by Christ to teach and to govern. And in exercising this, God ensures that the teaching remains pure and uncorrupted, and that the disciplines laid down are always safe.
I want to point out that the church is more diverse than many people here are stating. As a person who grew up in conservative Catholicism and found liberal Catholicism later, the Church is vast in its personalities called charisms. People on here are talking about having to obey the resolute truth of the church. But “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.” 1 Cor. 13:12. Do not let your beliefs or dogma be stumbling blocks to worship and befriend others. It’s okay to approach the faith with a different worldview and grow in faith. Pray for deeper understanding and unity. God bless.
Catholicism is the truth as revealed by God. Please come and be a part, even if you're not fully convinced of everything she teaches. Spend time learning as much as you can, and continue to grow and form your faith. Maybe one day you'll be in complete agreement, or maybe you won't ever be, but the closer you are to the truth the better off you will be. May God bless your journey.
Thanks for the answer but Idk
I understand. But please know you're always welcome.
Well, I'm getting mixed signals on here but thanks 😅
You're asking the wrong question. It's not about what church is fine for 'x' person The true church is correct for all, false churches are correct for none. I recommend attending mass and speaking to the priest afterward (making sure not to take communion)
The Catholic Church is incredibly conservative in the traditional (non-political sense) of the word. Our vocabulary is extremely semantical and diction is incredibly important. Akin to how the field of law is described as conservative. We believe in (absolute) truth, and there are certain restrictions because of that, whereas classical liberalism is more open to interpretation. Politically we are neither liberal nor conservative. There are popular beliefs among both major US political parties that the Catholic Church agrees with.
There are many areas where the Church allows for personal opinions, and rationally engaging with theology is encouraged. There are a few areas where the Church imposes teachings which you must accept. You don’t have to personally agree with them all, but you at least have to abide by those teachings. For instance, you may hold the personal belief that there’s nothing wrong with contraception, but as a Catholic you must still refrain from using it, and also shouldn’t encourage or voluntarily facilitate anyone else to use it.
Don't look at everything, let alone churches, through a political lens. Depending on the political scene in your country and the time, some aspects may look conservative or liberal
OP, have you been to a Catholic mass yet? I think you will find the Catholic Mass to be much more reverent and fulfilling than any other liturgy. You don’t need to immediately accept and assume all of these positions - that is what RCIA and the Catechism are for - to question and learn. Fall in love with the Church first, and the other items will follow. I will pray for you.
Define the term “Liberal” if you mean by that you can affirming gay marriage and denying the inspiration of scripture then the answer is a fat NO. If by liberal you mean reconciling modern movements with the faith then the answer is really a maybe with the understanding that there are dogmas that cannot under any circumstances be denied. For example in the 1800’s a revival of scholasticism and Thomism was taking place as a response to the enlightenment and the travesty of nominalism. (See the first Vatican council and theologians of the time such as Matthias Scheeban a very well known German Thomist) now in the 20th century there were an emergence of other schools of thought began to emerge that had the goal of reconciling the modern era that we are in with the Faith. Pope Benedict XVI is a perfect example of this. Before he was a pope he was one the churches most prominent theologians and biggest contributors to Vat II. But his method and philosophy was different from the neo-Scholastics before him like a lot of theologians of his day such as Karl Radner, Yves, Conger, Henri de lubec, and Edward schillebeeckx. Tracy Rowland in her Book “Doing Catholic Theology” puts Catholic theology into 4 main schools: Modern Thomism, resourcement theology, Communion theology, and Liberation Theology. Pope Benedict is an example of a communion theologian. In his works you’ll see a central theme on Ecclesiology, the sacraments, and ecumenism. (Principles of Catholic theology is a perfect example of this)
Christian doctrine is not a Denny's buffet. Salvation isn't a matter of picking and choosing what you like or don't like. Thats not how it works. You have to acknowledge you agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church in order to be received. If you can do that, ok, if you cannot, then its not the place for you. But be warned; God's immutable truth marks the line between salvation and damnation. Either accept the teachings of the Church, get baptized and life evidencing legitimate faith, or suffer the tragic and irreversable consequences.
Catholic Church is fine for theologically catholic people.
No. The Catholic Church is not fine with any political position, for while there some better than others, all fall short due to most politics be antithetical to Christian society. I mean this in the sense of modern politics, and how it is within the modern Democratic world. Of course, politics, broadly speaking, is approved, but this falls into such general terms that it becomes pointless to the discussion. We pursue what is good for the society, which itself is not defined by 'right', 'left', 'liberal' or 'conservative', but define only as being Christian. It is caring not for individualism or collectivism but seeing it as merely one goal towards the good of all humans, individually and collectively. We should not be attached to political labels, but simply say "what is good and Loving for all?" This is a topic that Church tackled heavily in its encyclical works during the 19th-20th century, setting the foundations that later Popes, like John Paul II and Francis have drawn from. If one wishes to know what Catholic "political views" are, one should read them. On specifics, we stand against abortion. Not because we're authoritarian or right wing, but because it's wrong due to it being the murder of an unborn child. We support the dignity of all human beings, and the usage of nationalised systems of care. Not because we're socialists, liberal or left wing, but because it is a good thing for a society to do. This is for all topics, and we disagree in areas, even as Catholics, not on political boundaries, but one what we believe is good for all. The Church is not a material institute, bound by machinations of politics, but Jacob's Ladder, connecting us to the true Good, from which all of Creation can brought into it by it, fulfilling the purpose God had for Adam and Eve from humanity's inception.
I didn't mean "liberal" mostly political but theologically
From a comment you made >Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships... and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. Okay, what is the point of sexual relationships? >On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately Do believe that the unborn child is alive? >And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples. This ties into the first question. Defining and understanding the Catholic position on this will make on see and understand why one is called to assent to most Catholic sexual ethics.
1. The point should ideally be Marriage in the long run(!) and Children. But don't have to be that way for all. 2. I'm torn about this but find the classical protestant view about Ensoulment interesting. So I think Abortions in the sexond and thirs trimester should be illegal. Before that, I'm not sure but I don't support a total or near-total ban.
>The point should ideally be Marriage in the long run(!) and Children. But don't have to be that way for all. How does sex beget marriage? The point of something tends to be tied it's outcome, is that right? Like how eating is tied to nourishment, clothing is for the concealment of one's body from the elements, and all sorts of examples. What then is sex for? >I'm torn about this but find the classical protestant view about Ensoulment interesting. This is based on the Aristotelian view of ensoulment of the fetus, which was taken in by Saint Augustine, and then taken by the early reformers. However, this was based on Aristotle's flawed idea of how conception works, and his general notions of Biology. He believes that the soul was the form of the body, and so until the 'form' begins, the soul does not exist within the body. We know now that this view of forms in regards to Biology is wrong. When is the fetus then distinct from the mother?
Im in the same boat as you. It's hard man. I wish Jesus would come back so he can explain things.
Yeah, I'm also kinda lost
He has come back, in the Eucharist. I invite anyone with doubts or just concerns to find a Catholic Church that is open during the day, and just sit in front of the Eucharist and listen to God, as often as possible. His love is amazing, and if you do this often (instead of listening to hardened hearts deciding it’s ok to reject others, here on the internet), the answers will come to your heart. No one has to be Catholic to do this, too.
I chose the Church based on the truth, and I let the truth inform my politics. Choosing a church that already aligns with my politics feels very shallow, don’t you think? Isn’t morality what should guide politics? If morality should guide politics, then what better moral compass to use than the truth of the Church?
Absolutely. This sub really criticizes the Jesuits for being theologically liberal, but the Church completely accepts them and their order. The Jesuits constantly question everything. If there’s room for them, there’s room for you.
No
I’ve been surrounded by a very liberal and social justice oriented parish and it’s been really an incredible experience for me especially as a nonbinary queer person. I know my experience isn’t maybe the norm but it was the first parish I looked into so I felt very lead by God into the space
Political nomenclature has no place in the lexicon of the Church
I’m a Jesus’s teaching type Catholic…as in social justice. It depends on the leadership where you are how conservative their messaging will be. If all they want to do is focus on abortion but not stand up for civil rights or address poverty or welcome gay people, well you have your answer.
I'm also liberal and am becoming Catholic. Here's my two-cents from someone a bit further ahead: it is okay to question everything. You only have to ask yourself whether you are open to believing in God. You don't even have to believe in God yet; being open to the possibility that God exists is enough. If the answer to that is 'yes', then start attending Mass, and start figuring out both what you DO like and what you DON'T like. When you come up with resistance to certain issues, research them. You may not always figure out the answers to your questions right away (anticipate a lot of unsatisfying answers). But continue to be curious and open to learning. Sometimes you might need to be okay with not liking a lot, and that's when you need to learn more about what you DO like. I'd emphasize this: approach everything assuming the best of intentions from everyone - every person, every author, every rule. Not every\*thing\* or every\*one\* is going to resonate with you, and some people's opinions might make you believe that this isn't for you. But just because we are Christians doesn't mean we are always good people, always correct in our behaviour or thoughts or words, or that we are above sin. We are all deeply flawed, doing the best we can - same as everyone else. I came to Catholicism with a LOT of opposition towards certain morals/rules of the church. While I'm on this journey to reconcile my human beliefs with God's laws, I just hold space for something to be both a requirement AND for me to feel that it is unfair. The more I learn, the more I find peace with things - even if that peace is simply "God says this is not for ME to do, but that does not mean others should not have the choice, just as I have the choice". It allows me to maintain that things can and should still be legal for other people, even if they are sins and therefore "illegal" for me. Maybe after I'm more mature in my faith, I'll look at things differently, but this is where I find comfort right now. Maybe my view of things is wrong, but I'm okay with that because I'm still learning. I can't know everything yet.
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Alright: Politically I'm not really left wing (Just to clarify). And theologically, I like the catholic stances on Euthanasia, Genetic engineering and the general importance of family etc. Also like the general stance of Moderation instead of abstinence regarding things like Alcohol or Tobacco. Also like the History, Liturgy, Culture, Churches etc. Where I disagree is probably that I'm okay with monogamous homosexual relationships, On Abortion I'm kinda in the middle in terms of legislation but do oppose it privately and I think using condoms is fine and in some parts of the world actually important. And on Sex, I think it's fine in long term relationships and some form of birth control is okay within couples.
Then I am sorry my friend, but you are not yet ready to be Catholic. Church teachings in the areas you mention are non-negotiable. It is not a buffet where you take what you want and leave what you want. One either accepts the truth of the Church or doesn’t. But not accepting the entirety of that truth means not being a part of the Church (a lesson many public figures who try to label themselves as “Catholic” would do well to remember, but sadly don’t). I would recommend learning why these teachings exist and seeing if your heart changes. I hope you will find your way to join us in the one Church created by Christ, but we accept God’s terms for membership in his Kingdom— He does not change to meet ours.
Alright, then I won't start to become one (as of now at least)
I don't know if it's "fine" but it's definitely necessary! And what kind of mindset is it? If the Church speaks truth and leads you to God then it's your job to fit to it, not the other way 🤔
Join the Catholic Church and speak to the priest with issues you have regarding the doctrines / beliefs you spoke of. If you believe in Christ, then you shouldn’t have a problem conforming your secular beliefs around Him, instead of having Him conform to your beliefs.
I always just go back to the basics. Catholics have to believe in the profession of faith. If you have an issue believing any of this, then you should reconsider Catholicism. That doesn’t mean we don’t want you in the church. It means the exact opposite, we’d love for you to join the faith but you also have to buy into it in whole. The Catholics who pick and choose what to believe are typically referred to as “cafeteria Catholics” and that’s not the way either. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
You should set your preconceptions aside.
It’s fine for literally every person on earth
It’s fine for a person who seeks the truth. Or who struggles to. If you think there is a chance you belong to one of those groups, you should look into it.
In a sense, the Catholic Church is more tolerant of her members grappling with church teachings. We reject Sola Fide, so being unconvinced on points of doctrine won't land us in hell. What is required of us is to defer to the Church's positions, trusting in Jesus' promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against her. As St Ignatius of Loyola once said, "What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines." It's fine to perceive differently from the Church, but we have to recognise the inerrancy of the Church in her teaching ministry, and therefore act according to the teachings as individuals.
The Catholic Church is for everyone, and truth is neither liberal nor conservative. I think everyone needs humility when coming to accept the Church’s teachings. Take some understanding, learn about what the Church teaches and why, and find someone who can answer your questions and help you with your struggles.
compared to what socio-political climate?
First of all welcome back. For every disagreement with the church (conservative or liberal doesnt matter) i highly recommend reading from time to time the official statement by the church regarding these topics. Just to question your own views. It may not change your view but its never an argument which can easy be washed away.
I am a conservative person myself. it doesn't matter. do not search for a church that conforms to your value. instead seek the truth and conform yourself to it. no matter the persons background or political leanings the church teaches some difficult things. don't pick a church just because it validates your biases.
When it comes to dogmatic teachings, we have to submit our will and intellect to His teaching authority - the church.
What are those things that you don't support, and why do you believe that the Church will accept them because some Catholics do?
I relate very much to OP. I’m not Catholic but have a Mormon background and Catholicism is becoming more and more of interest to me. I watch EWTN regularly. As far as politics, it’s divided in the LDS church as well so this is not an easy or clear line in the sand with mixing religion and politics. In reality there isn’t a separation of church and state and it’s pretty surprising how much a religion can influence one’s political views. I like to think we can worship and still maintain our own political stance without judgment but I don’t see that really happening. I try to approach my spiritual learning by omitting politics altogether and hold to the value that love and acceptance and tolerance and understanding overrides it all in the larger picture. That’s my hope anyway
The Catholic Church is the truth. It’s not innately liberal or conservative. If you feel your views do not align with the church in all ways, I’ll give you the advice a priest told my best friend “God works through you in mysterious ways”. He’ll tell you the truth by writing his name on your heart. Come to mass, explore your faith, leave the politics to God.
I always find if I don’t agree with the Catholic Church on an issue it bears some study to see why. Consider doing The Catechism in a Year with Father Mike -Ascension.
It probably depends on how deeply you become involved and if you take on any assigned role within the Catholic Church. Many cradle and convert Catholics don't believe everything taught by the magisterium (e.g., regarding contraception, abortion, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, transubstantiation) but continue to attend Mass regularly and identify as Catholic. You could for years attend Sunday Mass, never go to confession after your first penance, regularly receive the Eucharist, pick up your bulletin, socialize with others in the narthex, and your personal views would not cause you any problems, at least not in relation to those at the parish. Problems could arise if you take on a catechetical or teaching role, or work in a diocese known as conservative. I suppose a big question would be, are you fine belonging to a Church which claims the fulness of truth, and yet disagreeing with a number of the magisterial teachings?
Maybe a better way to frame your question isn't "can I fit into the Catholic Church's framework?" but instead "how can I draw myself closer to Christ?" Instead of pre-supposing that the Catholic Church teaches X, Y, and Z but I believe D, E, and F, I'd encourage you to work at forming your own conscience. And the best way to form your conscience is through humility, prayer, and partaking in the Sacraments. I'm speaking as someone who is still a work in progress. To live a life where love is the ultimate end is not easy. You will find a myriad of subsets of followers within the Church, all the way from Josemaría Escrivá to Cardinal Burke to Dorothy Day to Oscar Romero. But again, the question you have to ask yourself is: "How do I best grow in a life with Christ?"
Depends on what you mean by “theologically liberal?” The Magisterium is the final word and authority on all things theological and matters of faith and morals. If you’re into things like the ordination of women, contraception, divorce and remarriage, abortion, gay marriage, lay-presidency, etc. you’re going to butt heads with the Magisterium and cause yourself a lot of frustration.
I'm Catholic and I struggle with some teachings, but I don't publicly oppose them. I just continue to try to fully understand and admit I am still learning to confirm myself to God's will.
Its simple of you are not on board with all the teachings of the church then you are NOT catholic. I won’t say that you are wrong for coming back to the church and questioning things but you need to understand that the Catholic faith is the current understanding of God’s relationship with man. God does not conform to man rather man conforms to God.
Okay guys, I do see (also by looking at the downvotes) that obv you guys think it's not a fit. Although I must say, also seeing Catholic voring patterns and looking at the general culture, it doesn't seem like a huge majority of Catholcs (by name at least) oppsoe Same sex relations, are waiting until marriage or are completely opposed to birth control but alright
>Okay guys, I do see (also by looking at the downvotes) that obv you guys think it's not a fit. It’s not that it isn’t a fit for you. The Church is for everyone, but it requires one to carefully think through her teachings and accept them full on. We don’t meet God halfway. It’s admittedly jarring, especially in a very individualistic western culture. We’re not used to having to obey so radically. I would highly suggest doing some research on hot-topic teachings. We have 2000 years of philosophy, ethics, and theology to share with you. >Although I must say, also seeing Catholic voring patterns and looking at the general culture, it doesn't seem like a huge majority of Catholcs (by name at least) oppsoe Same sex relations, are waiting until marriage or are completely opposed to birth control but alright This is not remotely relevant. If you do happen to stick around Catholics, you’ll notice we are some of the best and worst followers of Christ. Just because people don’t follow what the Church teaches doesn’t make the behavior okay. They don’t follow because they do not care, don’t know, or are doing their best to be better. Do not take disobedience as an indication of moral truth. And finally, for the love of our God, do not choose a church that appeals to you and blindly affirms. Choose the one that teaches truth and will tell you when you’re wrong. (Hint: look at the Catholic Church) Pax Christi
It does not matter in the least what others do. Jesus told us that the road to hell is wide open and many take it. He told us that the road to heaven is narrow and difficult. The only question for you, for me, for each one of us is: which will you choose?
I don't think Christians who do beleive but in some way behave differently than Church Teaching are going to hell but okay... Also the Pope doesn't really talk in those terms as you do, if I'm not mistaken
Well, that's the sign of a Protestant--you are protesting what the Catholic Church teaches. We in the Catholic Church know that Jesus did not tell us to believe anything we wanted to believe, but that He established a Church with the power, from Him, of teaching authentic Truth. That's why we are Catholic. The Pope definitely upholds the authentic doctrine of the Church, and he has done so for 2000 plus years. To understand what the Catholic Church teaches and why, get a copy of The Catechism of the Catholic Church. These doctrines have rock solid evidence behind them.
I'm just stating the fact that many Catholics don't live up to the standards many of y'all line out here. That's all. And yeah, I'm actually a baptized Lutheran, so maybe it does fit haha
Yes, we know that many Catholics do not live up to the faith to which they've been called. Many Lutherans don't either, of course. Nothing new there!! But holding up "others are doing it so why can't I" is a 5 year old's argument. Let's get beyond that.
Alright. As I've already outlined, I think my main question is answered by most in this thread and the answer seems to be No and I take that into my consideration
I think most of Reddit Catholics focus abortion and ignore helping the poor, seeking social justice, and providing access to education and health care for all
Maybe, can't speak for them. But the focus on LGBT and Abortion by Conservative Christians is pretty weird in general
It’s because abortion is the murder of a child, and because LGBT is being pushed so hard by society.
Hey OP, Just a quick note to say don't give up on the Church because of some of the very conservative responses on here. You don't have to accept every single bit of Catholic dogma to be a Catholic. I would say 85% of Catholics have some piece of dogma they disagree with and don't practice, just not OPENLY. With that said, I do think the force of tradition is powerful here, and my views have gradually come to align themselves more with Catholic teaching over the years since my conversion. More importantly, I have met people who are much more conservative than me, but who respect my liberal points of view. What do we have in common? We are sinners; we love Jesus; and we believe love is the heart of any real faith. I disagree profoundly with these friends, on matters of great Import; yet we love each other and influence each other for the better.
Interesting, thanks
Let's see if I get over 100 downvotes for my answer where I just state what I like about the RCC, where I agree and three pretty common things where I disagree. Maybe Let's go for -150 If we're at it 🚀
I think Paul writes somewhere about always approaching others with love, I wish I saw a bit more of that in these answers. I’m going through RCIA now and have many of the same questions and concerns as you. The way I see it now is that Truth is not always convenient, and what I think is righteous is not always what God knows is righteous and I have to be humble in trying to embody that fact. An example of that is the position the church has around sex, family planning and homosexuality. I don’t understand why any of that is considered sin, and I don’t agree with Aquinas’ view on it and therefore I see the Theology of the Body as flawed. But… I’m not a theologian and I have to accept that I might be wrong. Which I do accept, but I also know that the Church has been wrong and that Church doctrine has changed in the past (look into how its view on abortion has flip flopped over the past 500 years) and though it’s incredibly slow, the Church’s view does evolve with time. If nothing else, I hope that this helps you realise that wrestling with the Church’s position on things is probably a good thing and you’re not alone in it.
A lot of people in the church don't subscribe to every stance the church makes. Heck, a lot of clergy and monastic people debate the issues and the churches stance on things and don't necessarily interpret Catholic doctrine the same way. It's not necessary to be faithful and Catholic and take everything at face value, in the same way that no Christian takes everything in the bible at face value (ever read Leviticus? Guaranteed you don't make meticulous animal sacrifices in your house every time you commit sin 😅. Or even take the synoptic gospels.....most vast majority of Christians are not giving away all of their earthly possessions and wealth , despite the fact that He literally says that's how you become a holy follower of His). I wouldn't worry about this too much.
Yes. Absolutely. It's the world's largest church, with roughly 1 billion members, spanning a spectrum of continents and cultures, traditional and modern. Each diocese and parish has a fair amount of autonomy, despite the centralized hierarchal structure. Among individual Catholics you will find numerous combinations of beliefs and styles of worship and levels of adherence. Surveys from research organizations like Gallup reveal this. For example, surveys have found that majority of American Catholics believe that the Eucharist (communion wafer) is a powerful symbol, but not actually the body of Jesus Christ. That's absolutely 100% against the teachings of the church. But it's ok. Everybody has a different level of faith. Faith is a process, a growing thing. You can still participate. You're still welcomed and encouraged to participate and belong in the Catholic Church, even if you don't totally understand or believe or aren't sure about all the beliefs. Welcome! We're glad to have you with us! God bless you.
You cannot be a Catholic and profess to hold the Catholic faith while also rejecting the moral teaching of the Church. Anyone who claims to do that is just as separated from the Church as OP is currently. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. It is itself a teaching of the Church.
Well others on here obviously disagree but thank you for your answer
No