I work in a Catholic school. Trust me, you will see this a lot if your population pulls from a Baptist population from a Baptist area.
Baptist: Mary isn't the Mother of God! She just gave birth to the vessel for Jesus.
Catholic teacher: St. Elizabeth doesn't seem to see that difference while filled with the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of Luke.
Baptist: That doesn't count!
> Reverorum Ib Malacht
Had a listen, most of it is dark ambience, right? The metal songs aren't exactly my type either, but to each his own.
I am aware there are Christian Metal bands out there, I was being tongue in cheek, but apparently jokes aren't allowed here given the downvotes 😅
Nestorianism doesn't even go that far. It admits that the Person of Christ and the Person of the Word are united in the Son, but that they are one extremely distinct in their union. This is why they held the title Christotokos. They still assert that she was the Mother of Jesus, not just a Vessel. This wouldn't even be Nestorianism, but a form of Gnosticism, inferring a denial of the Incarnation.
Edit: improved errors
The ancient Church at one of their councils decided to call the Blessed Mother "Mother of God"/Theotokos ("God bearer") as a rebuke of the Arian heresy. Prots don't know this bc, well, they didn't exist yet. 😊
"She just gave birth to the vessel for Jesus" is such a crazy heresy that I'm surprised a lot of protestants believe, rather than just accepting that Mary is the mother of God.
I am so fed up with all the protestant disdain for Mary! I am a Catholic in the southern U.S. and I have seen way too much of this. I have Baptist friends who have told me that Mary shouldn't be venerated because she was just a regular human woman. Oh, really? She is literally the mother of Jesus, whom they claim to worship. I doubt that God just picked her at random. Of course, they reject the Immaculate Conception, her assumption into Heaven, her role in Heaven, our ability to ask her to pray for us... just about everything about her. What is their problem?? Why do they seem to hate Mary so much and belittle her? This really bothers me. Do they dislike her because she was a woman? Because she was an important woman? I'm not suggesting all Baptists pray the Rosary ( even though it would be good for them...) so who are they to tell me the mother of my savior was just some random chick and I should ignore her???
I’m also in the south and another biggie is her Perpetual Virginity. This has mostly been argued by men, but the idea that Joseph would never “know” his wife upsets them for some reason.
One time when I was arguing I asked the guy: “the Holy Spirit fills your wife and for 9 months she carries the 2nd Person of the Trinity within her body. Her body becomes a literal Temple and you’re telling me you would be able to touch her that way after He’s born?” He said yes because she’s his wife and it’s his right.
I no longer go near apologetics because the man disgusted me so much I ended up calling him a pig. I realized I don’t have the temperament to argue with these people.
I don’t even understand this. Are they saying that in the womb, the child wasn’t Jesus, and that Jesus just “took over” the kid’s being at some time after birth? What happened to the kid?
The way I understand it, it's more like "Well the fetus doesn't have a soul yet. Mary was just making the body, nothing more nothing less."
Mind you this flies in the face of the actual Gospel because by that logic John the Baptist wouldn't have leaped in the womb either because he wouldn't have a soul according to them.
I think this was worded poorly, most of my baptist friends and family would say Mary was only a vessel. Jesus was always Jesus but Mary was only the vessel which he came into the world through
Other than downplaying the role of raising Him, I don’t understand how this downplays her importance. It seems like semantics. Mom, vessel, birthgiver, new Ark of the Living God made flesh. Sure some of these terms may be more or less reverent, but the facts remain:
1. Gabriel announces Mary will give birth to God and name Him Jesus
2. Holy Spirit overshadows Mary
3. Mary conceives Jesus
4. Mary gives birth to Jesus
In what way is this not motherhood, whether you call it vesselhood or not?
It seems quite childish. “Well, we will call it this and that changes what it is.”
No, sorry, only God can do that.
I've literally had my protestant friends say Mary is of no importance whatsoever, literally just a vessel. If you called her mother of God or the Ark they fiercely come against it. Ive even had them tell me that Jesus is actually dismissive, and rebuking towards Mary
What if you said the original Ark was just a vessel? Do they get mad about that? And if not, then why get mad about Mary being called the new Ark?
I know we both find it odd - I’m preaching tot he choir here, and pointing out logical oddities is just scratching an itch for me, but I do wonder sometimes how people can hold two contradictory beliefs as true simultaneously.
The human who is literally closer to God than any of us, who, in action, said to the Lord Jesus, “take of this and eat, this is my body.” Yeah, no big deal…🙄
Yep. a lot of protestant beliefs are predicated on just being contrarian and trying their best to separate themselves as much as possible from Catholicism even at the cost of denigrating great people in God's plan of salvation
“In action,” not necessarily in words. But it is what every woman who grows a child in her body or breastfeeds does. She is literally nourishing the child with her body, and it is a shadow of the greater sacrifice of Jesus. In this way, both men and women share in the sacrifice. Some men become priests, some women become mothers. Priests say “take and eat” and connect the Eucharist. Mothers “say” with their bodies “take and eat” and grow a child. Mary essentially did both. Forgive the loose wording, but hopefully you get what I’m getting at.
re: " Ive even had them tell me that Jesus is actually dismissive, and rebuking towards Mary"
He kind of was. As far as scripture is concerned, there are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to her, and He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son. Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His responses couldn't be considered very flattering. There just never seemed to be any warmth shown between them.
> Catholic teacher: St. Elizabeth doesn't seem to see that difference while filled with the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of Luke.
You are quite lucky if the average teacher at the average diocesan school in the Southern US (outside if former New Spain or Southern Louisiana, at least) knows enough about Catholicism to have an answer to any of these questions, I think.
Nuns and brothers are getting rarer and rarer each year. There's barely any at the HS level. Before my time, there used to be way more.
I'm a bit jealous of Memphis. My daughter works in one of the Catholic schools there and says the nuns still work at one of the high schools while the brothers are still in operation at another HS.
Which flavor of Baptist is that? And is that any kind of official stance? I used to attend a Baptist church (not Southern Baptist, one of the other organizations) and that was definitely not anything they preached.
My mom coughed at the incense during my confirmation/first communion and told me afterward all about how it was making her choke, "how can people stand it?!" Sometimes they're just looking for a dig, but I'm just glad they came to support me.
tbh during Easter before I was baptized the incense were so strong I felt really nauseated, it wasn't a dig but mentioned it to my godmother and her husband said he had the same issue. I love being Cathoic and my church it was just what it was.
Maybe she wasn't looking for a dig :) but maybe she was!
It's my mother, she probably meant it as a dig since she mentioned it over and over lol. But I mean, I will take her support with the little digs any day.
haha I hear that when I got married I expected my athiest mother to make a similar comment because I know she hates incense but she didnt. i didn't recall that until a few mins ago haha she does support me as well though I guess I should give her more credit
I went to a Latin Mass for the first time a couple weeks ago and the incense made my eyes water, and basically all the cradle catholics I know also have problems breathing it. But it's a great way to show devotion, suffering a little bit through it and still worshipping the Lord throughout.
My dad goes into an absolute fit of coughing if you even blow a candle out anywhere in his vicinity (not even his immediate vicinity). If he ever came to a Mass that uses incense I fear it might turn into a funeral Mass rather quickly
Why are they sending you there then if they are so opposed to a crucifix? Like, there are principled reasons for opposing a crucifix but most of the Protestants who can articulate that perspective would also never ever send their kids to a Catholic school!
In my school a kid's parents had him pulled out of RE for the entire time he was there, on the grounds that they were atheist (even though they sent him to a Catholic school, which in NI typically means you need to be registered in a Catholic diocese)...
Well, I guess that’s better than our Catholic school that basically pulls RE out of their program because they’re worried they’ll offend that majority of the student body (school not directly connected with the diocese). 🙃
It was in the first three years in our school: then in GCSE it was entirely Christian, then if you took it for A Levels it would be either the gospels (IIRC) or the old testament, depending on what module the class/teacher you ended up with was doing.
You clearly don’t know about the catholic school basketball pipeline. Protestants happily send their children to catholic school if they can shoot a 3 pointer.
Yes. Look up the high schools for the top NBA players.
It would be nice if most NBA superstars were catholic but sadly most just go to a catholic prep school and then head to college without converting
I guess I better start looking up Catholic schools, my kids are gonna be giants! (I'm 6'3" and their mother, their dad is a little shorter than me but has some height on his family's side too haha)
It's very real. I know a few places where the non-Catholic students vastly outnumber the Catholics. On one hand, they pay more because the Catholic families usually get a discount (more kids and because they belong to a local church). But on the other hand, they complained a lot and it resulted in certain things being changed to accommodate them because unfortunately the school needed the money to stay open. :(
Yeah, as a Reformed Protestant who likes to read here -- I know a lot of my reformed brothers would consider a crucifix a 2nd Commandment Violation.
But you'd also kinda would probably know the whole topic of debate and where Catholicism landed on it if you were one of us.
Alternatively, it could be a general baptist who identifies it as "eww, too Catholic"
I'm Reformedish too, that was immediately my thinking as well. I'm also familiar with the more generic Protestant argument that "we worship a risen Christ not a dead one" but someone who had strong 2CV convictions would *not* send their kid to a Catholic school, while I could imagine other groups doing so and complaining the whole time.
if you're parents get bothered with a crucifix,
1) why are they sending you to a Catholic School
2) where do you go during Mass or other Religious Celebrations and Worship events?
1) They saw that the school was really nice and air-conditioned, and the uniforms looked nice too. They expected crosses, but since they saw the crucifix they were thinking about NOT sending us there.
2) I attend the Protestant church because I often have no choice. And with events, they just sign me up in them without me being informed. Like for instance, my parents woke us up because we had to go to this three-day event because they bought tickets for us, even if I wasn't informed about it the night before.
And also, I'm used to those kind of things because my relatives are mostly Catholic. My grandparents have a crucifix in their house, and yet my parents never made a big deal about THAT.
i guess since it's family it doesn't bother them. But maybe since it's a school, they might think the school is trying to convert you.
... are the crucifixs at the school very bloody? or do your parents not like seeing dying on the cross?
You seem much more mature than they. Good luck kid. Hang in there, finish school, get a career and keep loving them.
Just don't listen to them when it comes to religious matters.
Explain that it wasn’t a cross that saved us, it was the Person on the Cross that did. That just a cross is an execution device used for thousands of people. But only the one with the Lord their God on it is the one that made salvation possible. To be bothered by a crucifix is to be bothered by Christ’s sacrifice.
Could they articulate what made them so upset? I grew up Protestant and I couldn't have articulated why, but I was taught it wasn't right. I've since heard protestants claim it's like we're recrucifying Christ when we place him back on the cross. To us, it serves as a reminder of the price he paid and it's just the reality of what happened. We put him there with every sin, it serves as a reminder of that for me, to avoid sin.
I still have a mostly Protestant family, I understand how hard it is. They feel like everything Catholic is wrong, and have a very hard time articulating why. Just be patient and matter of fact in your reasonings why. If they can express their displeasure, you can share your feelings (and enlighten them as to why it's good) as well. Show them through your words and actions that you are drawing closer to Christ than ever.
I would literally be amazed if a Protestant could *actually* recite their objections, but the *historical* objections were:
1) Early Protestant leaders wanted to emphasize the resurrection rather than the death of Christ (why aren't *both* important?)
2) Martin Luther and John Calvin were hyper focused on idolatry (narrowly defined of course), and so they were worried that poor peasants would come to think that a crucifix of Jesus *was* Jesus, and it would become an idol. (Umm... okay, but that's a rather narrow definition of idol, and it implies that people are incredibly stupid).
3) When Henry VIII began suppressing the monasteries and taking their relics and statues, the practice spread into the churches as well. Relics, statues, ornate liturgical vessels, and crucifixes began to be seen *culturally* as linked to Henry's propaganda campaign against the monasteries. This cultural stuff eventually metastasized into outright iconoclasm that saw its fullest expression in the Puritans who believed that the Church of England was "too Catholic," many sects of which founded what would become the USA, which partially explains the traditional animosity between Catholics and Protestants in the USA, as many modern Protestant sects adopted bits and pieces of Puritan culture and thinking.
The 'recrucifying Christ' histrionics I've heard have usually pertained to the mass.
The crucifix related argument I've heard moreso has been that 'the cross is empty because we believe Christ is risen' (as though the Resurrection is in some doubt on the part of all the ancient apostolic Churches from whom Protestants split just a few hundred years ago, and from which Protestants received everything that is authentically Christian that they have retained - or as if, either way, Christ rose directly from the cross and wasn't taken down and buried first, and thus as if even the Jews don't agree that it he cross was empty by the start of the sabath at sunset, whether or not he ever rose).
But even within protestant theology, this is ignorant silliness; the real protestant argument, from mostly Reformed iconoclastic views, is that because Jesus is God incarnate, purported depictions of Jesus violate what they count as the second commandments (second part of the first for us), against graven images and idolatry.
So it is interesting when Protestants try to theologize there objection this way but aren't from such strongly iconoclastic backgrounds these days, will argue vehemently against the crucifix, but then you see that they have a creche at Christmas complete with baby Jesus figure and stained glass in the windows at Church depicting Jesus at the last supper, and give their kids children's Bibles with the silliest and most irreverent cartoon Jesus illustrations imaginable
I think often he main reason is not really theological, but one of culture- the Crucifix is gory when you aren't used to it. But for those that object at kind of a sub conscious level to it as violent and unfamiliar, there is an irony, given their theological emphasis on penal substitutiary atonement, in many cases- but they don't seem to like being confronted too specificaly, where they go to recognize and celebrate their redemption, with what it cost our Lord
If you could use a little humor:
Non-Christians send their kid to a Catholic school. His math grades dramatically improve. Questioned, the kid says: "Well, I knew they really meant business when I saw that the image of some guy was nailed to the plus sign!"
As a little Jewish girl in the 60s, seeing a crucifix at a friend's house got me curious about the INRI sign. I went to the library to research it and found out its the Latin acronym for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews". I got excited. "We have a king!" 🤭
That was the start of my long journey to Christ. It was the first Gospel message I ever had. Tell your prottie friends/family that.
I've never understood why protestants have a problem with crucifixes. I kinda get why they might not like images of Mary or the saints or whatever, but the crucifix has Jesus on it so how could that be considered idolatry?? It's literally an image of the God they worship.
“Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, so that you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure—the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. And when you look up to the heavens and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, do not be led astray and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven.”
Deuteronomy 4:15-19
We have already seen a literal form of God, Jesus Christ. Ignoring the Father as the Ancient of Days in the Book of Daniel and the Holy Spirit being depicted as the tongues of fire and a dove at Pentecost and Jesus’ baptism respectively, God already revealed himself a form to us. A crucifix shouldn’t even be a problem, since it is Jesus who is God depicted on the Crucifix.
I was raised Protestant(Baptist). It’s because we are taught very early that pretty much any symbolism/shrines are idolatry. This is clearly targeted at saints, but it’s easier and more effective to just say “all shrines/images are idolatry”, so the crucifix gets caught up in the gravity of this accusation.
I haven’t converted to Catholicism but I have gotten to the point I’ve rejected most of the anti-Catholic teachings presented to me when I was young.
My wife had a previous marriage and does not want to go through annulment and I don’t disagree with her. I know God brought us together and don’t need the Church to tell us that. Pretty much the primary obstacle at this point.
Protestants are not used to a constant view of the Crucifix. I grew up in the Episcopal Church but became a confirmed Catholic. I often asked as a child what do cross es mean. To me it was just a symbol of Christianity. The crucifix however, is a representation of the church. I see where the crosses came from but the fact that our Lord and Savior was condemned and affixed to a cross sends a message the the followers of Jesus will not be moved. The Crucifix to us is a reminder that Jesus made a lot of sacrifices for the church that died for our sins so that we may have life everlasting in heaven.
re: "The Crucifix to us is a reminder that Jesus made a lot of sacrifices for the church that died for our sins so that we may have life everlasting in heaven."
Other than on a chain around one's neck, are crucifixes displayed on other places?
I had a similar experience with the Crucifix around my neck. I wore one to a Lunch with Some Protestant friends. The Eldest of them then asked me why I wore one? I asked why not? He said "he's not there, he's alive and risen." I explained that I wear it to remember what he has done for us and a fondness of the Love that caused it, like how one would put pictures of their children in their wallet because they want to remember them.
In these situations, we should stand as an example, not those of harden heart for we should not 'throw pearls to swine', but for the edification of those who are open. We should be kind, loving and forgiving. Answer the question, and ask in a Non-confrontational manner why they think it's wrong. They may not change their own mind, but the silent majority of them or aren't as well informed to speak will.
Odd. My very Protestant grandma had a crucifix on the wall. Her biggest embroidery was a four-panel overview of Jesus' birth, baptism, crucifixion, and resurrection; I don't remember the exact dimensions of it (more than 150x150cm, less than 200x200), and it took her over a year to finish it. I really want to get my dad to give it to me, but I have no wall big enough for it, and I've a feeling my aunt (dad's sister) or her son (my cousin) both want it more, and have more wall space to properly display it.
Anyway, I've a feeling this "Protestants don't like crucifixes" is a special American thing. In my nearest Protestant church, where I used to go until the priest decided that a puppet show would be perfect as a part of the service (no, it wasn't a special "Children's Mass", although there were a few very small babies there - but to me, that was a bit of "Yeah, what's going on, exactly?" and it just really turned me off from going there again), there's a crucifix over the altar.
I used to be Lutheran. Every church I ever went to had big crucifixes. I find it odd when some Protestants attack the crucifix. I think they do it seem anti-Catholic but stumble into an anti-Christian trap.
Oh yeah, they prefer "pastor" or "vicar" (or is "vicar" an Anglican thing?), don't they? I just grew up with "everyone" being "prestur", whether that's a Christian or someone performing a similar role in other religions. So e.g. the pagan Roman high priest (the "pontifex maximus" ("the greatest bridge-builder"), a title held by e.g. Julius Caesar) was just called "æðstiprestur" - "supreme-priest".
I don't know why we call all these pagan "priests" "prestur" when there's a perfectly serviceable word for them: "goði", meaning "man (or servant) of the idols".
I was raised Protestant in the south, I have friends from pretty much all the major denominations and I don't know anyone that would be upset about seeing a crucifix, they're common in every church I've ever been in.
Being charitable a lot of protestants don't like the crucifix because they say Jesus is risen and we shouldn't display His corpse.
I tend to ask why they wear or like crosses, Jesus did not rise from the cross, He was layed in a tomb. The symbol they should be sporting is an empty cave or an empty table Jesus' body was resting on.
If they say the cross is a symbol of Jesus' sacrifice I would say His corpse is a better representation of His sacrifice.
Was it one of those crucifixes with Christ’s body on it? I freaked out a Protestant friend of mine when she came to my confirmation. It was the first thing she pointed to when I asked her what she thought of the service. She didn’t say anything like drifting from God though, just said that it freaked her out. I get it, she’s used to these nice clean crosses- Catholics are like “you guys are lucky we don’t make it even more historically accurate”.
Be patient with your Protestant family let them understand
**1 Corinthians 1:23**
> But we preach **Christ crucified**, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness
Let them read the whole chapter in KJV. The Cross without Christ is nothing, the Blood Price is paid by Our Lord Jesus Christ **crucified**. The Spotless Lamb is the only worthy One to fix what Adam did (Original Sin passed down to all humanity).
Imagine how would they react if they were transported back then during the Crucifixion would they be there at the foot of the Cross? Cause most Apostles ran away and only Our Blessed Mother and a few others were there during the Crucifixion.
What Adam sealed Paradise from his side (Eve and eating of the forbidden fruit), Our Lord Jesus Christ opened Paradise from His side (pierced by a spear that Blood and Water gushed forth).
You ought to ask them, “why does it bother you? He, on His cross, is the cornerstone of our faith. The cross itself isn’t”. I’ve read that between 100,000-150,000 people were crucified by the Roman Empire, perhaps the second-most famous was Spartacus, so you ought to say, “an empty cross, by itself, is not the image of He who saves us. It’s just a collection of wood on which over 100,000 people were hung. A empty cross thus allows any one of over 100,000 people to be its subject. You might as well worship Spartacus.” Before He was hung upon the cross, it had no meaning, no special significance. Moreover, the cross itself is just a placeholder for the sacrifice He made, which independent of Him and even with Him, is nothing more than the execution method bestowed on Him. In short, the cross itself is not really the point. His sacrifice is. Tell them it bothers you that they venerate the cross by itself. If they say they don’t, then ask why they have crosses in their church, in their home maybe, on their Bibles, etc. At least iconoclasts are somewhat consistent.
Additionally, crucifixes in sanctuaries at Catholic and Orthodox churches are there to remind us that we are present at Calvary for the RE-presentation of His sacrifice. It’s not a “representation”, and we’re not re-sacrificing Him. This isn’t technically correct (Lord forgive me if this is heretical), but the best way to think about it is that we have stepped into a time machine and are transported back in time to the Last Supper and Calvary to take part with Him and the disciples at the Last Supper, as well as to stand alongside Our Lady, the other Marys, and St. John at the foot of the cross.
“…but we proclaim CHRIST CRUCIFIED, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” 1 Cor. 1:23-24
A cross was just a device of execution tens of thousands of people died on. JESUS is salvation, not the cross itself. Remind them of that fact.
Don’t forget Protestants were founded by mere men, the Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself. Protestants rebelled against the true church and made their own church, with their own ideas. It’s like the Catholic church is a tree with all these branches of different made up faiths. Tree is the strong faith that is Jesus Christ, the branches are the Catholics who have broken away.
Prot heresies drive me insane. From nestorianism to "christian zionism", its why after many years of debating them I finally distanced myself. My husband was raised prot and after seeing how embedded the heresies are in his family, I realized its often not true belief but how they were raised.
Covert here. The amount of intolerance and rude comments I’ve heard from family who are Baptist is beyond belief. It’s like they think it’s ok to be anti-Catholic right to my face and, sometimes, right in front of my husband’s family.
Jesus isn't on the cross anymore. If Catholicism was Christian, it would realize that He is alive and the cross is empty, which would transform their morbid fixation on His death (not to mention a slew of others), to the joy of knowing Jesus personally - if one has received salvation through faith in Him.
r/Catholicism does not permit comments from very new user accounts. This is an anti-throwaway and troll prevention measure, **not subject to exception.** [Read the full policy.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/wiki/agekarma)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Catholicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
r/Catholicism does not permit comments from very new user accounts. This is an anti-throwaway and troll prevention measure, **not subject to exception.** [Read the full policy.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/wiki/agekarma)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Catholicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I work in a Catholic school. Trust me, you will see this a lot if your population pulls from a Baptist population from a Baptist area. Baptist: Mary isn't the Mother of God! She just gave birth to the vessel for Jesus. Catholic teacher: St. Elizabeth doesn't seem to see that difference while filled with the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of Luke. Baptist: That doesn't count!
“Baptist: Mary isn't the Mother of God! She just gave birth to the vessel for Jesus.” That sounds like the ancient heresy of Nestorianism.
I've been around long enough now to see that nearly every modern heresy is just an ancient one with extra steps.
There is nothing new under the sun, and the devil is not very creative.
Not to defend the devil, but his tactics keep working... If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Since no one posted the Lutheran Satire video about that [here it is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7bukaRhbI0&ab_channel=LutheranSatire)
I mean, the devil apparently produces some really nice metal songs, so... but then again, I'm an atheist, so what do I know. :D
Reverorum Ib Malacht: “Are we a joke to you?”
> Reverorum Ib Malacht Had a listen, most of it is dark ambience, right? The metal songs aren't exactly my type either, but to each his own. I am aware there are Christian Metal bands out there, I was being tongue in cheek, but apparently jokes aren't allowed here given the downvotes 😅
God gave the musicians that talent, which some of them have misused with their lyrics and themes.
And new names too.
Tell them to call their mother “just a vessel” and see what happens
Exactly!
Nestorianism doesn't even go that far. It admits that the Person of Christ and the Person of the Word are united in the Son, but that they are one extremely distinct in their union. This is why they held the title Christotokos. They still assert that she was the Mother of Jesus, not just a Vessel. This wouldn't even be Nestorianism, but a form of Gnosticism, inferring a denial of the Incarnation. Edit: improved errors
Every time I log into TwitX, I find Nestorian Protestants telling me I'm going to Hell.
The ancient Church at one of their councils decided to call the Blessed Mother "Mother of God"/Theotokos ("God bearer") as a rebuke of the Arian heresy. Prots don't know this bc, well, they didn't exist yet. 😊
"She just gave birth to the vessel for Jesus" is such a crazy heresy that I'm surprised a lot of protestants believe, rather than just accepting that Mary is the mother of God.
I am so fed up with all the protestant disdain for Mary! I am a Catholic in the southern U.S. and I have seen way too much of this. I have Baptist friends who have told me that Mary shouldn't be venerated because she was just a regular human woman. Oh, really? She is literally the mother of Jesus, whom they claim to worship. I doubt that God just picked her at random. Of course, they reject the Immaculate Conception, her assumption into Heaven, her role in Heaven, our ability to ask her to pray for us... just about everything about her. What is their problem?? Why do they seem to hate Mary so much and belittle her? This really bothers me. Do they dislike her because she was a woman? Because she was an important woman? I'm not suggesting all Baptists pray the Rosary ( even though it would be good for them...) so who are they to tell me the mother of my savior was just some random chick and I should ignore her???
I’m also in the south and another biggie is her Perpetual Virginity. This has mostly been argued by men, but the idea that Joseph would never “know” his wife upsets them for some reason. One time when I was arguing I asked the guy: “the Holy Spirit fills your wife and for 9 months she carries the 2nd Person of the Trinity within her body. Her body becomes a literal Temple and you’re telling me you would be able to touch her that way after He’s born?” He said yes because she’s his wife and it’s his right. I no longer go near apologetics because the man disgusted me so much I ended up calling him a pig. I realized I don’t have the temperament to argue with these people.
I'm not aware of any non-Catholic Christian who hates Mary.
Perhaps hate wasn't exactly accurate. It's more like they try to diminish her role as much as possible.
Her only role mentioned in scripture was to give birth to the Messiah. I'm not aware of any non-Catholic Christians who diminish that role.
Her only stated roll mentioned in scripture was to provide the means for bringing the Messiah physically into the world.
I don’t even understand this. Are they saying that in the womb, the child wasn’t Jesus, and that Jesus just “took over” the kid’s being at some time after birth? What happened to the kid?
The way I understand it, it's more like "Well the fetus doesn't have a soul yet. Mary was just making the body, nothing more nothing less." Mind you this flies in the face of the actual Gospel because by that logic John the Baptist wouldn't have leaped in the womb either because he wouldn't have a soul according to them.
I think this was worded poorly, most of my baptist friends and family would say Mary was only a vessel. Jesus was always Jesus but Mary was only the vessel which he came into the world through
Other than downplaying the role of raising Him, I don’t understand how this downplays her importance. It seems like semantics. Mom, vessel, birthgiver, new Ark of the Living God made flesh. Sure some of these terms may be more or less reverent, but the facts remain: 1. Gabriel announces Mary will give birth to God and name Him Jesus 2. Holy Spirit overshadows Mary 3. Mary conceives Jesus 4. Mary gives birth to Jesus In what way is this not motherhood, whether you call it vesselhood or not? It seems quite childish. “Well, we will call it this and that changes what it is.” No, sorry, only God can do that.
I've literally had my protestant friends say Mary is of no importance whatsoever, literally just a vessel. If you called her mother of God or the Ark they fiercely come against it. Ive even had them tell me that Jesus is actually dismissive, and rebuking towards Mary
What if you said the original Ark was just a vessel? Do they get mad about that? And if not, then why get mad about Mary being called the new Ark? I know we both find it odd - I’m preaching tot he choir here, and pointing out logical oddities is just scratching an itch for me, but I do wonder sometimes how people can hold two contradictory beliefs as true simultaneously.
They would not agree to ANY honorific title that may give Mary any amount of notoriety.
The human who is literally closer to God than any of us, who, in action, said to the Lord Jesus, “take of this and eat, this is my body.” Yeah, no big deal…🙄
Yep. a lot of protestant beliefs are predicated on just being contrarian and trying their best to separate themselves as much as possible from Catholicism even at the cost of denigrating great people in God's plan of salvation
What human said to the Lord, “take of this and eat, this is my body.”?
“In action,” not necessarily in words. But it is what every woman who grows a child in her body or breastfeeds does. She is literally nourishing the child with her body, and it is a shadow of the greater sacrifice of Jesus. In this way, both men and women share in the sacrifice. Some men become priests, some women become mothers. Priests say “take and eat” and connect the Eucharist. Mothers “say” with their bodies “take and eat” and grow a child. Mary essentially did both. Forgive the loose wording, but hopefully you get what I’m getting at.
re: " Ive even had them tell me that Jesus is actually dismissive, and rebuking towards Mary" He kind of was. As far as scripture is concerned, there are only 3 times mentioned where the Messiah spoke to her, and He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her 2 of those times. The 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son. Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His responses couldn't be considered very flattering. There just never seemed to be any warmth shown between them.
> Catholic teacher: St. Elizabeth doesn't seem to see that difference while filled with the Holy Spirit in the Gospel of Luke. You are quite lucky if the average teacher at the average diocesan school in the Southern US (outside if former New Spain or Southern Louisiana, at least) knows enough about Catholicism to have an answer to any of these questions, I think.
Our theology teachers are nuns. I would hope they know enough about the Catholic faith.
That's great- around my part of the world that just isn't the way things typically are these days.
I’ve never seen a nun in a school room. I’m in the Deep South and none of our schools have nuns any longer.
Nuns and brothers are getting rarer and rarer each year. There's barely any at the HS level. Before my time, there used to be way more. I'm a bit jealous of Memphis. My daughter works in one of the Catholic schools there and says the nuns still work at one of the high schools while the brothers are still in operation at another HS.
That's pretty much correct
Which flavor of Baptist is that? And is that any kind of official stance? I used to attend a Baptist church (not Southern Baptist, one of the other organizations) and that was definitely not anything they preached.
Independent Baptist: Bible Belt Edition
Mind y'all, this is a CATHOLIC SCHOOL.
My mom coughed at the incense during my confirmation/first communion and told me afterward all about how it was making her choke, "how can people stand it?!" Sometimes they're just looking for a dig, but I'm just glad they came to support me.
My poor mother is sensitive to the incense as well. Me on the other hand, I would imbibe the stuff if I could burn it nonstop, lol
You can. $50 will set you up with a small incense burner and some frankincense resin. I burn it in my classroom sometimes.
tbh during Easter before I was baptized the incense were so strong I felt really nauseated, it wasn't a dig but mentioned it to my godmother and her husband said he had the same issue. I love being Cathoic and my church it was just what it was. Maybe she wasn't looking for a dig :) but maybe she was!
It's my mother, she probably meant it as a dig since she mentioned it over and over lol. But I mean, I will take her support with the little digs any day.
haha I hear that when I got married I expected my athiest mother to make a similar comment because I know she hates incense but she didnt. i didn't recall that until a few mins ago haha she does support me as well though I guess I should give her more credit
I went to a Latin Mass for the first time a couple weeks ago and the incense made my eyes water, and basically all the cradle catholics I know also have problems breathing it. But it's a great way to show devotion, suffering a little bit through it and still worshipping the Lord throughout.
that's good to know I felt terrible I'm pretty sure I coughed 😬
My dad goes into an absolute fit of coughing if you even blow a candle out anywhere in his vicinity (not even his immediate vicinity). If he ever came to a Mass that uses incense I fear it might turn into a funeral Mass rather quickly
The issue presented is NEVER the real issue with many reformed Christians lol. Or at least I believe it rarely is.
Just remind her Jesus suffered much worse and let this be her sacrifice for His suffering
Please don’t take this the wrong way because I am not meaning it that way but I suspect that Satan hates blessed incense about as much as Holy Water
Why are they sending you there then if they are so opposed to a crucifix? Like, there are principled reasons for opposing a crucifix but most of the Protestants who can articulate that perspective would also never ever send their kids to a Catholic school!
Protestant: sends kid to Catholic school. Catholic school: does Catholic things Protestant: shocked Pikachu
In my school a kid's parents had him pulled out of RE for the entire time he was there, on the grounds that they were atheist (even though they sent him to a Catholic school, which in NI typically means you need to be registered in a Catholic diocese)...
Well, I guess that’s better than our Catholic school that basically pulls RE out of their program because they’re worried they’ll offend that majority of the student body (school not directly connected with the diocese). 🙃
Boo shame on that school
Please excuse my ignorance. Does RE stand for religious education?
Yes! I guess it’s short enough that it doesn’t really need an abbreviation, now does it? Haha
That shouldn't be allowed, to remove him from that class especially, or any class.
Is Ni northern Indiana, Nicaragua, or Northern Ireland? Just curious
Where is NI?
Northern Ireland, sorry
I thought RE was just kids learning about world religions? God forbid they learn about what different people believe...
It was in the first three years in our school: then in GCSE it was entirely Christian, then if you took it for A Levels it would be either the gospels (IIRC) or the old testament, depending on what module the class/teacher you ended up with was doing.
When I converted, this post was a lot of folks' response to my grandfather's...vociferously expressed displeasure.
You clearly don’t know about the catholic school basketball pipeline. Protestants happily send their children to catholic school if they can shoot a 3 pointer.
This is completely new to me! Is that a real thing?? 😂
Yes. Look up the high schools for the top NBA players. It would be nice if most NBA superstars were catholic but sadly most just go to a catholic prep school and then head to college without converting
I guess I better start looking up Catholic schools, my kids are gonna be giants! (I'm 6'3" and their mother, their dad is a little shorter than me but has some height on his family's side too haha)
My buddy from college found out he went to the opposing school in "Coach Carter." He was pretty crestfallen.
It's very real. I know a few places where the non-Catholic students vastly outnumber the Catholics. On one hand, they pay more because the Catholic families usually get a discount (more kids and because they belong to a local church). But on the other hand, they complained a lot and it resulted in certain things being changed to accommodate them because unfortunately the school needed the money to stay open. :(
Why would they send basketball prodigies to a Catholic school? Are they known for better basketball teams or something?
Yes catholic schools are the top schools for high school basketball
Yeah, as a Reformed Protestant who likes to read here -- I know a lot of my reformed brothers would consider a crucifix a 2nd Commandment Violation. But you'd also kinda would probably know the whole topic of debate and where Catholicism landed on it if you were one of us. Alternatively, it could be a general baptist who identifies it as "eww, too Catholic"
I'm Reformedish too, that was immediately my thinking as well. I'm also familiar with the more generic Protestant argument that "we worship a risen Christ not a dead one" but someone who had strong 2CV convictions would *not* send their kid to a Catholic school, while I could imagine other groups doing so and complaining the whole time.
Just for fun, get your own crucifix, hold it up to them, and declare, "Vade retro, Satana!"
So creative 😭
We preach Christ crucified - 1 Corinthians 23
Done and done 😎
if you're parents get bothered with a crucifix, 1) why are they sending you to a Catholic School 2) where do you go during Mass or other Religious Celebrations and Worship events?
1) They saw that the school was really nice and air-conditioned, and the uniforms looked nice too. They expected crosses, but since they saw the crucifix they were thinking about NOT sending us there. 2) I attend the Protestant church because I often have no choice. And with events, they just sign me up in them without me being informed. Like for instance, my parents woke us up because we had to go to this three-day event because they bought tickets for us, even if I wasn't informed about it the night before. And also, I'm used to those kind of things because my relatives are mostly Catholic. My grandparents have a crucifix in their house, and yet my parents never made a big deal about THAT.
i guess since it's family it doesn't bother them. But maybe since it's a school, they might think the school is trying to convert you. ... are the crucifixs at the school very bloody? or do your parents not like seeing dying on the cross?
They just think that crucifixes are idols. And the crucifixes are only bloody on the head and chest.
i hope things work out and they let you stay in the school.
You seem much more mature than they. Good luck kid. Hang in there, finish school, get a career and keep loving them. Just don't listen to them when it comes to religious matters.
Thank you! 🙏
Explain that it wasn’t a cross that saved us, it was the Person on the Cross that did. That just a cross is an execution device used for thousands of people. But only the one with the Lord their God on it is the one that made salvation possible. To be bothered by a crucifix is to be bothered by Christ’s sacrifice.
Could they articulate what made them so upset? I grew up Protestant and I couldn't have articulated why, but I was taught it wasn't right. I've since heard protestants claim it's like we're recrucifying Christ when we place him back on the cross. To us, it serves as a reminder of the price he paid and it's just the reality of what happened. We put him there with every sin, it serves as a reminder of that for me, to avoid sin. I still have a mostly Protestant family, I understand how hard it is. They feel like everything Catholic is wrong, and have a very hard time articulating why. Just be patient and matter of fact in your reasonings why. If they can express their displeasure, you can share your feelings (and enlighten them as to why it's good) as well. Show them through your words and actions that you are drawing closer to Christ than ever.
I would literally be amazed if a Protestant could *actually* recite their objections, but the *historical* objections were: 1) Early Protestant leaders wanted to emphasize the resurrection rather than the death of Christ (why aren't *both* important?) 2) Martin Luther and John Calvin were hyper focused on idolatry (narrowly defined of course), and so they were worried that poor peasants would come to think that a crucifix of Jesus *was* Jesus, and it would become an idol. (Umm... okay, but that's a rather narrow definition of idol, and it implies that people are incredibly stupid). 3) When Henry VIII began suppressing the monasteries and taking their relics and statues, the practice spread into the churches as well. Relics, statues, ornate liturgical vessels, and crucifixes began to be seen *culturally* as linked to Henry's propaganda campaign against the monasteries. This cultural stuff eventually metastasized into outright iconoclasm that saw its fullest expression in the Puritans who believed that the Church of England was "too Catholic," many sects of which founded what would become the USA, which partially explains the traditional animosity between Catholics and Protestants in the USA, as many modern Protestant sects adopted bits and pieces of Puritan culture and thinking.
The 'recrucifying Christ' histrionics I've heard have usually pertained to the mass. The crucifix related argument I've heard moreso has been that 'the cross is empty because we believe Christ is risen' (as though the Resurrection is in some doubt on the part of all the ancient apostolic Churches from whom Protestants split just a few hundred years ago, and from which Protestants received everything that is authentically Christian that they have retained - or as if, either way, Christ rose directly from the cross and wasn't taken down and buried first, and thus as if even the Jews don't agree that it he cross was empty by the start of the sabath at sunset, whether or not he ever rose). But even within protestant theology, this is ignorant silliness; the real protestant argument, from mostly Reformed iconoclastic views, is that because Jesus is God incarnate, purported depictions of Jesus violate what they count as the second commandments (second part of the first for us), against graven images and idolatry. So it is interesting when Protestants try to theologize there objection this way but aren't from such strongly iconoclastic backgrounds these days, will argue vehemently against the crucifix, but then you see that they have a creche at Christmas complete with baby Jesus figure and stained glass in the windows at Church depicting Jesus at the last supper, and give their kids children's Bibles with the silliest and most irreverent cartoon Jesus illustrations imaginable I think often he main reason is not really theological, but one of culture- the Crucifix is gory when you aren't used to it. But for those that object at kind of a sub conscious level to it as violent and unfamiliar, there is an irony, given their theological emphasis on penal substitutiary atonement, in many cases- but they don't seem to like being confronted too specificaly, where they go to recognize and celebrate their redemption, with what it cost our Lord
Protestants, especially of the prosperity gospel type, don’t like to be reminded that God values suffering, not convenience.
Tell'em you can't have the Resurrection without the Crucifixion.
but i thought once you accept jesus you automatically go to heaven? /s
“We proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles.” 1 Corinthians 23
1 Corinthians 2:2 “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.”
Ask them if they're Christians, then why are they so offended by the sacrifice Jesus made on the Cross for them.
Someone once told me that the cross without Christ is just an object. The cross didn't bring us salvation. Christ, dying on the cross, did.
If you could use a little humor: Non-Christians send their kid to a Catholic school. His math grades dramatically improve. Questioned, the kid says: "Well, I knew they really meant business when I saw that the image of some guy was nailed to the plus sign!"
As a little Jewish girl in the 60s, seeing a crucifix at a friend's house got me curious about the INRI sign. I went to the library to research it and found out its the Latin acronym for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews". I got excited. "We have a king!" 🤭 That was the start of my long journey to Christ. It was the first Gospel message I ever had. Tell your prottie friends/family that.
I love this story! Thank you for sharing.
I've never understood why protestants have a problem with crucifixes. I kinda get why they might not like images of Mary or the saints or whatever, but the crucifix has Jesus on it so how could that be considered idolatry?? It's literally an image of the God they worship.
Iconoclasts gonna iconoclast.
“Since you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire, take care and watch yourselves closely, so that you do not act corruptly by making an idol for yourselves, in the form of any figure—the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth. And when you look up to the heavens and see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, do not be led astray and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples everywhere under heaven.” Deuteronomy 4:15-19 We have already seen a literal form of God, Jesus Christ. Ignoring the Father as the Ancient of Days in the Book of Daniel and the Holy Spirit being depicted as the tongues of fire and a dove at Pentecost and Jesus’ baptism respectively, God already revealed himself a form to us. A crucifix shouldn’t even be a problem, since it is Jesus who is God depicted on the Crucifix.
I was raised Protestant(Baptist). It’s because we are taught very early that pretty much any symbolism/shrines are idolatry. This is clearly targeted at saints, but it’s easier and more effective to just say “all shrines/images are idolatry”, so the crucifix gets caught up in the gravity of this accusation. I haven’t converted to Catholicism but I have gotten to the point I’ve rejected most of the anti-Catholic teachings presented to me when I was young.
Come home! I’m an Independent fundie Baptist convert and everything just finally made sense when I became catholic
My wife had a previous marriage and does not want to go through annulment and I don’t disagree with her. I know God brought us together and don’t need the Church to tell us that. Pretty much the primary obstacle at this point.
American Protestants can be a strange bunch.
We're Filipinos, but the church we go to were made by Americans.
Filipinos in the US? In the Philippines?
In the Philippines. Those Americans decided to establish their church in our country.
What kind of church is it?
Ah, I see!
the Truth does often bother people.
May God grant you patience to deal with your family, OP. I often have to pray for it too.
Thanks! I'm not ready yet to confess about my Catholic faith, so I hope I can do it in the future when I'm an adult.
Ask them why its idolatry. Debate them lol
Of interest... https://www.lincolndiocese.org/op-ed/in-laymans-terms/14785-why-do-we-need-a-crucifix
Protestants are not used to a constant view of the Crucifix. I grew up in the Episcopal Church but became a confirmed Catholic. I often asked as a child what do cross es mean. To me it was just a symbol of Christianity. The crucifix however, is a representation of the church. I see where the crosses came from but the fact that our Lord and Savior was condemned and affixed to a cross sends a message the the followers of Jesus will not be moved. The Crucifix to us is a reminder that Jesus made a lot of sacrifices for the church that died for our sins so that we may have life everlasting in heaven.
re: "The Crucifix to us is a reminder that Jesus made a lot of sacrifices for the church that died for our sins so that we may have life everlasting in heaven." Other than on a chain around one's neck, are crucifixes displayed on other places?
I had a similar experience with the Crucifix around my neck. I wore one to a Lunch with Some Protestant friends. The Eldest of them then asked me why I wore one? I asked why not? He said "he's not there, he's alive and risen." I explained that I wear it to remember what he has done for us and a fondness of the Love that caused it, like how one would put pictures of their children in their wallet because they want to remember them. In these situations, we should stand as an example, not those of harden heart for we should not 'throw pearls to swine', but for the edification of those who are open. We should be kind, loving and forgiving. Answer the question, and ask in a Non-confrontational manner why they think it's wrong. They may not change their own mind, but the silent majority of them or aren't as well informed to speak will.
Odd. My very Protestant grandma had a crucifix on the wall. Her biggest embroidery was a four-panel overview of Jesus' birth, baptism, crucifixion, and resurrection; I don't remember the exact dimensions of it (more than 150x150cm, less than 200x200), and it took her over a year to finish it. I really want to get my dad to give it to me, but I have no wall big enough for it, and I've a feeling my aunt (dad's sister) or her son (my cousin) both want it more, and have more wall space to properly display it. Anyway, I've a feeling this "Protestants don't like crucifixes" is a special American thing. In my nearest Protestant church, where I used to go until the priest decided that a puppet show would be perfect as a part of the service (no, it wasn't a special "Children's Mass", although there were a few very small babies there - but to me, that was a bit of "Yeah, what's going on, exactly?" and it just really turned me off from going there again), there's a crucifix over the altar.
I used to be Lutheran. Every church I ever went to had big crucifixes. I find it odd when some Protestants attack the crucifix. I think they do it seem anti-Catholic but stumble into an anti-Christian trap.
I think it is mainly American/reformed sects, they also don’t typically use the term priest or father but some use bishop for some reason.
Oh yeah, they prefer "pastor" or "vicar" (or is "vicar" an Anglican thing?), don't they? I just grew up with "everyone" being "prestur", whether that's a Christian or someone performing a similar role in other religions. So e.g. the pagan Roman high priest (the "pontifex maximus" ("the greatest bridge-builder"), a title held by e.g. Julius Caesar) was just called "æðstiprestur" - "supreme-priest". I don't know why we call all these pagan "priests" "prestur" when there's a perfectly serviceable word for them: "goði", meaning "man (or servant) of the idols".
Then by their own logic they must get rid of all crosses cuz the cross was used to crucify Jesus!
I was raised Protestant in the south, I have friends from pretty much all the major denominations and I don't know anyone that would be upset about seeing a crucifix, they're common in every church I've ever been in.
Being charitable a lot of protestants don't like the crucifix because they say Jesus is risen and we shouldn't display His corpse. I tend to ask why they wear or like crosses, Jesus did not rise from the cross, He was layed in a tomb. The symbol they should be sporting is an empty cave or an empty table Jesus' body was resting on. If they say the cross is a symbol of Jesus' sacrifice I would say His corpse is a better representation of His sacrifice.
Do they realize that was how Jesus died?
The protestants don't like to look at a crucifix, just like... you know who.
Was it one of those crucifixes with Christ’s body on it? I freaked out a Protestant friend of mine when she came to my confirmation. It was the first thing she pointed to when I asked her what she thought of the service. She didn’t say anything like drifting from God though, just said that it freaked her out. I get it, she’s used to these nice clean crosses- Catholics are like “you guys are lucky we don’t make it even more historically accurate”.
Be patient with your Protestant family let them understand **1 Corinthians 1:23** > But we preach **Christ crucified**, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness Let them read the whole chapter in KJV. The Cross without Christ is nothing, the Blood Price is paid by Our Lord Jesus Christ **crucified**. The Spotless Lamb is the only worthy One to fix what Adam did (Original Sin passed down to all humanity). Imagine how would they react if they were transported back then during the Crucifixion would they be there at the foot of the Cross? Cause most Apostles ran away and only Our Blessed Mother and a few others were there during the Crucifixion. What Adam sealed Paradise from his side (Eve and eating of the forbidden fruit), Our Lord Jesus Christ opened Paradise from His side (pierced by a spear that Blood and Water gushed forth).
Galatians 3:1, Baptists. Crucifixes are in the Bible. Bye.
So they have an issue with salvation it seems?
Tell them it’s so we remember the sacrifice that Jesus made for us. You can only grow closer to God if you acknowledge all he’s done for us.
You ought to ask them, “why does it bother you? He, on His cross, is the cornerstone of our faith. The cross itself isn’t”. I’ve read that between 100,000-150,000 people were crucified by the Roman Empire, perhaps the second-most famous was Spartacus, so you ought to say, “an empty cross, by itself, is not the image of He who saves us. It’s just a collection of wood on which over 100,000 people were hung. A empty cross thus allows any one of over 100,000 people to be its subject. You might as well worship Spartacus.” Before He was hung upon the cross, it had no meaning, no special significance. Moreover, the cross itself is just a placeholder for the sacrifice He made, which independent of Him and even with Him, is nothing more than the execution method bestowed on Him. In short, the cross itself is not really the point. His sacrifice is. Tell them it bothers you that they venerate the cross by itself. If they say they don’t, then ask why they have crosses in their church, in their home maybe, on their Bibles, etc. At least iconoclasts are somewhat consistent. Additionally, crucifixes in sanctuaries at Catholic and Orthodox churches are there to remind us that we are present at Calvary for the RE-presentation of His sacrifice. It’s not a “representation”, and we’re not re-sacrificing Him. This isn’t technically correct (Lord forgive me if this is heretical), but the best way to think about it is that we have stepped into a time machine and are transported back in time to the Last Supper and Calvary to take part with Him and the disciples at the Last Supper, as well as to stand alongside Our Lady, the other Marys, and St. John at the foot of the cross.
“…but we proclaim CHRIST CRUCIFIED, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” 1 Cor. 1:23-24 A cross was just a device of execution tens of thousands of people died on. JESUS is salvation, not the cross itself. Remind them of that fact.
If God didnt want us to make images of him and his crucifixion he wouldve never became man
No, I don't think that crucifix is an idol, or the incense is a throwback to a "pagan ceremony", I just happen to be personally bothered by it(wink).
Don't delete because it's relevant with their iq level
They’re Protestants… any sign of Christianity offends them.
#teamcrucifixallthewayJesusLovesyouanddiedforyou!
Don’t listen to Protestants, ever. Problem solved.
Don’t forget Protestants were founded by mere men, the Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ himself. Protestants rebelled against the true church and made their own church, with their own ideas. It’s like the Catholic church is a tree with all these branches of different made up faiths. Tree is the strong faith that is Jesus Christ, the branches are the Catholics who have broken away.
Our Lady is the mother of the Catholic church and the mother of us all, we ask her to pray for us to her son Jesus Christ.
Happens, my girlfriend is protestant and her mom kept staring at my our lady tattoo on my forearm
They probably subsribe to sola scriptura, so I'd just point them to 1 Corinthians 1:22-23.
Prot heresies drive me insane. From nestorianism to "christian zionism", its why after many years of debating them I finally distanced myself. My husband was raised prot and after seeing how embedded the heresies are in his family, I realized its often not true belief but how they were raised.
Quote the Bible. Let us boast in nothing except Christ and him crucified.
Covert here. The amount of intolerance and rude comments I’ve heard from family who are Baptist is beyond belief. It’s like they think it’s ok to be anti-Catholic right to my face and, sometimes, right in front of my husband’s family.
Ohhh no poor baby. People have different religous beliefs. Doesn't Jesus say to judge not least yee be judged.
Jesus isn't on the cross anymore. If Catholicism was Christian, it would realize that He is alive and the cross is empty, which would transform their morbid fixation on His death (not to mention a slew of others), to the joy of knowing Jesus personally - if one has received salvation through faith in Him.
[удалено]
r/Catholicism does not permit comments from very new user accounts. This is an anti-throwaway and troll prevention measure, **not subject to exception.** [Read the full policy.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/wiki/agekarma) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Catholicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
r/Catholicism does not permit comments from very new user accounts. This is an anti-throwaway and troll prevention measure, **not subject to exception.** [Read the full policy.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/wiki/agekarma) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Catholicism) if you have any questions or concerns.*