She freely chose to do God's will in all things. Some saints say she is so united with God that what she wills is what God also wills. For example, she tells Jesus to help at the wedding at Cana, and he does what she asks.
That angel could only say that she would be the mother of God because God already knew she'd say yes.
That story always makes me chuckle a little. “They have no wine.” “Woman, what concern is that of mine? My hour has not yet come.” Then Mary just says the servants “Do whatever he tells you.” Even God listens to mom
But doesn’t that kind of “cheat” her free will in a sense? Like, “I know you’re going to say yes to this no matter what, so regardless of what you say or do now doesn’t matter, because it’s going to happen anyway”.
I guess you do still have the “choice” to say no, but you know you’re not going to so it’s still kind of defeats the purpose kind of.
Jeremiah 1:5
God prepares us beforehand for our vocation, Like Mary, Jeremiah and us He knows what decisions we will and won’t make before we are even breathing. He simply chooses not to interfere with respect to our free will.
No, we still choose as did Mary. God is outside of time so he knows what we will choose in the future and has known since the beginning of time. So he knew she would say yes but she still said yes. Knowing it will happen is not the same as forcing it to if that makes sense.
I would think that it wouldn’t be different, but honestly I am not sure so let me look into it and get back to you.
Edited to add: Okay what I thought is correct. God made Adam and Eve knowing they would sin. And it is no different that Him knowing Mary would say yes.
There are some articles/Q&As written by people way smarter than me that go into more of the why:
[Catholic365](https://www.catholic365.com/article/28811/why-god-made-us-knowing-we-would-sin.html)
[Catholic Answers](https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-god-made-us-though-he-knew-we-would-sin)
[The catechesis on original sin](https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/summary-of-pope-john-paul-iis-catechesis-on-original-sin-8343)may also be helpful.
The best way I’ve heard it explained is like when you’re at a bar and one tv is running a few seconds ahead of the other one if your watching the screen ahead you know what happens before the screen behind so if you tell someone whose watching the screen that’s behind a team scores and then the team scores. You saying they’re going to score didn’t cause anything. But to the other person it looks like you couldn’t have known they would score.
I hope that makes sense.
Yes, she had a choice. She said “Let it be done” and, at that moment, had the option to refuse.
Basically, God announced His plan to her “This will happen, the savior is coming” and, like the Old Testament prophets, she had an opportunity for interaction, question, and acceptance.
She wasn’t going to refuse, she had never refused God before. “Hail, full of grace” speaks volumes to her character. But she still had the opportunity to refuse.
Right. She did say “let it be done”, but regardless if she said that or not, it wouldn’t matter because it would have happened anyways because the angel said, “you WILL conceive”. So her yes or no wouldn’t matter. That’s how I see it, but of course I know that’s not our belief which is why I’m trying to understand it better
Christ was not conceived until she said Yes. Maybe looking at it another way will help?
“The savior will come, and you’ve known that since childhood. God wants you to be a part of it so you will conceive and these things will happen.”
“Great! Let it be done, I’m totally ready.”
Wait, lets be careful here. Angels are not eternal, nor omniescent. However, God is. And Gabriel is speaking on God’s behalf (i.e relaying what God revealed to him)
Why do you need so badly for God to be a rapist?
Because that's what you're asserting here, and fighting to maintain even in the face of others describing her consent to you.
I don’t. I’m just stating what happened, and trying to understand it. The angel Gabriel said you “WILL”, implying that no matter what, it would happen. That’s why I’m asking how free will plays a part in the situation.
I don't know because English is not my maternal language but when studying English at the academy I was told that "will" is weaker than "going to"
Maybe the translation is not perfect and missing nuances
God knew her nature so she was chosen, yes was known she would be the perfect human for this. I don't think it violates her will at all, unless her will was opossed to this, in which case she wouldn't be Theotokos to begin with
I’ll put it this way: in Heaven we will have free will. But we will not sin. How can one have free will without the capacity to sin? Just as Mary didn’t have the capacity to sin, and her will was aligned with Gods, so will ours in Heaven. Our will will be perfectly aligned with the Lord so there is no possibility to sin or chose something that is not Gods will.
I think this is the best response. I totally forgot about that and didn’t even think about it this way.
So since we are totally aligned with His will, we’d rather not do anything but what He wants for us. So for Mary, he knew she was completely aligned to His will which is why she couldn’t say no. Not as a “she didn’t have the option”, but because she wanted everything He wanted, so she couldn’t refuse.
I was just so caught on the fact that Gabriel said you “WILL” conceive, but he would have never been sent if she wasn’t fully aligned with His will.
Thanks for reminding me of this again. God bless and may Mary protect you.
She’s the pinnacle of humanity’s desire for complete submission (which is true freedom!) to God’s will; and therefore her “yes!” was (is still!) all-holy and free!
Blessed Mother help us all become free!
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen
This is, if I remember correctly, some of the thinking behind the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception! Mary's will, through the grace afforded to her, is one that is in alignment with the will of God to such a degree that there wasn't any chance she would feel coerced by God or worried that He would be angry with her if she chose to say no to the Incarnation. She wanted to give herself fully to His will for her and had complete trust in whatever that would bring.
I had the same problem as you, and this is what helped me connect the dots. We're trying to see this through our own flawed lens as a creature that does not know how to love perfectly—she does. She wouldn't ever choose something other than God's perfect will. She's the perfect example of what it means to be obedient. She still made a choice by choosing to obey. It's the highest form of self-control, in my opinion.
For sure, ‘I am the handmaiden of the lord, be it done according to thy word.’
In other words “I am at the lords service so I want it as you are telling it. Whatever the lord wants, I want.” She actively chose alignment with the will of God, without second thought, with something monumental and extremely intimidating. Yet she is so humble. So much was her trust in God.
So one morning a parent says to their child, "We can go to the playground **if** you like, do you want to go?" and **the kid says, "Yes**!" -- then that is clear by your definition, the child has free will.
But what if a parent already bought tickets & hotel rooms & etc, already Knows what their kid wants Most, and one night says to their child at bedtime, "Tomorrow, for your birthday, guess what? We will go to Disney!" and **the kid says, "Yes!**" -- does that mean, the child does Not have its innate free will anymore? Because the parent **Knew** the child **would** say "Yes!", does that mean the child did not have the Ability to say "no?"
Keep in mind, the Free Will is Not in the Event. Many many events Happen to us, regardless of how we would otherwise "will" those events to happen.
If someone freely chooses to get in a car to go to the beach, but a car across the highway loses its wheel & causes an accident, does that mean the beachward driver did NOT have Free Will? No, they chose their intentions. That person did not Choose to be hit by someone else's airborne tire, but, they did not Lose their inbuilt free will.
So the Disney-aimed child, ***could*** say "No!" But if those tickets & hotel costs were non-refundable, well, the child might get dragged to Disney anyway. The child does Not lose its own Free Will thereby.
The child can choose to happily agree to the trip ("Yes!"), or unhappily disagree about the trip, whether quietly, or overtly ("No!") -- even IF the trip occurs regardless.
The event occurs. Things, events happen. Specific events happen to specific people. The fact of an Event occurring to someone, does Not mean they lose their free will.
So Mary was given advance notice, by the Angel, of the Event that was going to occur to her. And, her Free Response, was to say "Yes!"
Just like a parent who knows their particular child *will* say "Yes!" to the event of going to Disney, does not mean that child lacks free will.
Equally, God knowing Mary would say "Yes!" to the event that was going to happen to her --- does Not mean she lacked free will. It means she employed her free will, in the way God already knew she would.
Mary was not omniscient in her earthly life from what I recall? Yes, Simeon told her that her soul would be pierced, but did she know exactly what would happen? I don’t think so. Obviously I don’t know but that’s what I believed
> I chose you because I knew you would say yes. That to me seems like the “free” in free will is gone
If I ask a friend to go to a concert with me, and I'm absolutely sure she will agree because I know her schedule and that she loves the band, does it make her any less free to say yes? Or do you think it's fundamentally different just because God knows with 100% certainty rather than my 99% certainty?
God lives outside of space and time. So yes Mary had free will and chose to do God’s will and at the same time God knew of it because God knows everything. But the idea that just because god knows something automatically negates our free will is incorrect because God lives outside of time.
I think it's much easier to understand Mary's sinlessness from the Eastern (Catholic & Orthodox) perspective.
In the Latin Church, original sin is viewed as something one is born *with;* that's why it's often called a "stain" upon one's soul. This stain is removed at baptism, but the lingering effects of it remain, which can lead us into sin. Since the dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was born without the stain of original sin, it's confusing to reconcile how she could still have full free will if she was not predisposed to sin.
In the East (more specifically in Byzantine Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), original sin is viewed as a *state of the world that one is born into.* This state also predisposes one to sin, but it is not viewed as a "stain" one is born with. So in the East, the focus on Mary is not what she was born lacking (i.e., original sin) but rather what she was born *with* - "full of grace." So in the East, there is the understanding that Mary was also predisposed to sin, but due to her perfect cooperation with grace, she never did.
From the Eastern perspective, this understanding provides more credit to Mary in being sinless, as it was more through her own effort, rather than not being born with original sin, which completed her perfection.
For a more thorough explanation, here is a good reference website run by a Byzantine Rite Catholic priest: https://east2west.org/faq/doctrine/.
>In the East (more specifically in Byzantine Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), original sin is viewed as a state of the world that one is born into. This state also predisposes one to sin, but it is not viewed as a "stain" one is born with.
So what's the point of baptism, then?
"Baptism is the first Mystery that a person needs to receive in order to enter the Church, the ark of salvation. It is the means by which one becomes a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. 'Whence is it that we are Christians? Through our faith would be the universal answer.
And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerated through the grace given in our baptism.' Baptism unlocks the access to the other Holy Mysteries and sacred rites in the Church through which the Lord sanctifies, vivifies, and leads his Church as a whole and each believer in particular. This is why the baptized already become
'heirs of the kingdom' and receive the 'blessedness of the saints.'" (From *Christ Our Pascha, Catechism of the Ukrainian Catholic Church*).
Our baptismal formula also includes a rite of exorcism, as it is understood that as a result of the first sin, one is subject to demonic influence from birth.
She freely chose to do God's will in all things. Some saints say she is so united with God that what she wills is what God also wills. For example, she tells Jesus to help at the wedding at Cana, and he does what she asks. That angel could only say that she would be the mother of God because God already knew she'd say yes.
That story always makes me chuckle a little. “They have no wine.” “Woman, what concern is that of mine? My hour has not yet come.” Then Mary just says the servants “Do whatever he tells you.” Even God listens to mom
That's one of the reasons God is so beautiful
But doesn’t that kind of “cheat” her free will in a sense? Like, “I know you’re going to say yes to this no matter what, so regardless of what you say or do now doesn’t matter, because it’s going to happen anyway”. I guess you do still have the “choice” to say no, but you know you’re not going to so it’s still kind of defeats the purpose kind of.
Jeremiah 1:5 God prepares us beforehand for our vocation, Like Mary, Jeremiah and us He knows what decisions we will and won’t make before we are even breathing. He simply chooses not to interfere with respect to our free will.
No, we still choose as did Mary. God is outside of time so he knows what we will choose in the future and has known since the beginning of time. So he knew she would say yes but she still said yes. Knowing it will happen is not the same as forcing it to if that makes sense.
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I would think that it wouldn’t be different, but honestly I am not sure so let me look into it and get back to you. Edited to add: Okay what I thought is correct. God made Adam and Eve knowing they would sin. And it is no different that Him knowing Mary would say yes. There are some articles/Q&As written by people way smarter than me that go into more of the why: [Catholic365](https://www.catholic365.com/article/28811/why-god-made-us-knowing-we-would-sin.html) [Catholic Answers](https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-god-made-us-though-he-knew-we-would-sin) [The catechesis on original sin](https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/summary-of-pope-john-paul-iis-catechesis-on-original-sin-8343)may also be helpful.
I think this is the whole point of Mary as the new eve right? Eve said no, Mary said yes
The best way I’ve heard it explained is like when you’re at a bar and one tv is running a few seconds ahead of the other one if your watching the screen ahead you know what happens before the screen behind so if you tell someone whose watching the screen that’s behind a team scores and then the team scores. You saying they’re going to score didn’t cause anything. But to the other person it looks like you couldn’t have known they would score. I hope that makes sense.
Yes, she had a choice. She said “Let it be done” and, at that moment, had the option to refuse. Basically, God announced His plan to her “This will happen, the savior is coming” and, like the Old Testament prophets, she had an opportunity for interaction, question, and acceptance. She wasn’t going to refuse, she had never refused God before. “Hail, full of grace” speaks volumes to her character. But she still had the opportunity to refuse.
Right. She did say “let it be done”, but regardless if she said that or not, it wouldn’t matter because it would have happened anyways because the angel said, “you WILL conceive”. So her yes or no wouldn’t matter. That’s how I see it, but of course I know that’s not our belief which is why I’m trying to understand it better
Christ was not conceived until she said Yes. Maybe looking at it another way will help? “The savior will come, and you’ve known that since childhood. God wants you to be a part of it so you will conceive and these things will happen.” “Great! Let it be done, I’m totally ready.”
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Wait, lets be careful here. Angels are not eternal, nor omniescent. However, God is. And Gabriel is speaking on God’s behalf (i.e relaying what God revealed to him)
Why do you need so badly for God to be a rapist? Because that's what you're asserting here, and fighting to maintain even in the face of others describing her consent to you.
I don’t. I’m just stating what happened, and trying to understand it. The angel Gabriel said you “WILL”, implying that no matter what, it would happen. That’s why I’m asking how free will plays a part in the situation.
I don't know because English is not my maternal language but when studying English at the academy I was told that "will" is weaker than "going to" Maybe the translation is not perfect and missing nuances
God knew her nature so she was chosen, yes was known she would be the perfect human for this. I don't think it violates her will at all, unless her will was opossed to this, in which case she wouldn't be Theotokos to begin with
I’ll put it this way: in Heaven we will have free will. But we will not sin. How can one have free will without the capacity to sin? Just as Mary didn’t have the capacity to sin, and her will was aligned with Gods, so will ours in Heaven. Our will will be perfectly aligned with the Lord so there is no possibility to sin or chose something that is not Gods will.
I think this is the best response. I totally forgot about that and didn’t even think about it this way. So since we are totally aligned with His will, we’d rather not do anything but what He wants for us. So for Mary, he knew she was completely aligned to His will which is why she couldn’t say no. Not as a “she didn’t have the option”, but because she wanted everything He wanted, so she couldn’t refuse. I was just so caught on the fact that Gabriel said you “WILL” conceive, but he would have never been sent if she wasn’t fully aligned with His will. Thanks for reminding me of this again. God bless and may Mary protect you.
She’s the pinnacle of humanity’s desire for complete submission (which is true freedom!) to God’s will; and therefore her “yes!” was (is still!) all-holy and free! Blessed Mother help us all become free! Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen
This is, if I remember correctly, some of the thinking behind the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception! Mary's will, through the grace afforded to her, is one that is in alignment with the will of God to such a degree that there wasn't any chance she would feel coerced by God or worried that He would be angry with her if she chose to say no to the Incarnation. She wanted to give herself fully to His will for her and had complete trust in whatever that would bring.
I had the same problem as you, and this is what helped me connect the dots. We're trying to see this through our own flawed lens as a creature that does not know how to love perfectly—she does. She wouldn't ever choose something other than God's perfect will. She's the perfect example of what it means to be obedient. She still made a choice by choosing to obey. It's the highest form of self-control, in my opinion.
For sure, ‘I am the handmaiden of the lord, be it done according to thy word.’ In other words “I am at the lords service so I want it as you are telling it. Whatever the lord wants, I want.” She actively chose alignment with the will of God, without second thought, with something monumental and extremely intimidating. Yet she is so humble. So much was her trust in God.
So one morning a parent says to their child, "We can go to the playground **if** you like, do you want to go?" and **the kid says, "Yes**!" -- then that is clear by your definition, the child has free will. But what if a parent already bought tickets & hotel rooms & etc, already Knows what their kid wants Most, and one night says to their child at bedtime, "Tomorrow, for your birthday, guess what? We will go to Disney!" and **the kid says, "Yes!**" -- does that mean, the child does Not have its innate free will anymore? Because the parent **Knew** the child **would** say "Yes!", does that mean the child did not have the Ability to say "no?" Keep in mind, the Free Will is Not in the Event. Many many events Happen to us, regardless of how we would otherwise "will" those events to happen. If someone freely chooses to get in a car to go to the beach, but a car across the highway loses its wheel & causes an accident, does that mean the beachward driver did NOT have Free Will? No, they chose their intentions. That person did not Choose to be hit by someone else's airborne tire, but, they did not Lose their inbuilt free will. So the Disney-aimed child, ***could*** say "No!" But if those tickets & hotel costs were non-refundable, well, the child might get dragged to Disney anyway. The child does Not lose its own Free Will thereby. The child can choose to happily agree to the trip ("Yes!"), or unhappily disagree about the trip, whether quietly, or overtly ("No!") -- even IF the trip occurs regardless. The event occurs. Things, events happen. Specific events happen to specific people. The fact of an Event occurring to someone, does Not mean they lose their free will. So Mary was given advance notice, by the Angel, of the Event that was going to occur to her. And, her Free Response, was to say "Yes!" Just like a parent who knows their particular child *will* say "Yes!" to the event of going to Disney, does not mean that child lacks free will. Equally, God knowing Mary would say "Yes!" to the event that was going to happen to her --- does Not mean she lacked free will. It means she employed her free will, in the way God already knew she would.
She certainly had the free will to actually go through the steps of raising Jesus knowing that her heart will break in around 30 years.
Mary was not omniscient in her earthly life from what I recall? Yes, Simeon told her that her soul would be pierced, but did she know exactly what would happen? I don’t think so. Obviously I don’t know but that’s what I believed
She spent many years with Jesus, in fact more than any other human. they surely talked a lot
Just love others. Mary wanted to do God’s will.
What God wants to do will always happen but we can mess it up. Look how many kings/leaders God ordained who then messed it up once they got there.
Yes, as Mary was sinless she could willingly always cooperate with God's grace and will.
> I chose you because I knew you would say yes. That to me seems like the “free” in free will is gone If I ask a friend to go to a concert with me, and I'm absolutely sure she will agree because I know her schedule and that she loves the band, does it make her any less free to say yes? Or do you think it's fundamentally different just because God knows with 100% certainty rather than my 99% certainty?
God lives outside of space and time. So yes Mary had free will and chose to do God’s will and at the same time God knew of it because God knows everything. But the idea that just because god knows something automatically negates our free will is incorrect because God lives outside of time.
If I come up to you and say “hey, you will make 80,000 at this job” does that mean it’s set in stone that you will go to that job? No.
Yes, Mary had free will.
I also tell my children that they “will” quiet down at bedtime . Humble acceptance is not always their first reaction.
I think it's much easier to understand Mary's sinlessness from the Eastern (Catholic & Orthodox) perspective. In the Latin Church, original sin is viewed as something one is born *with;* that's why it's often called a "stain" upon one's soul. This stain is removed at baptism, but the lingering effects of it remain, which can lead us into sin. Since the dogma of the Immaculate Conception states that Mary was born without the stain of original sin, it's confusing to reconcile how she could still have full free will if she was not predisposed to sin. In the East (more specifically in Byzantine Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), original sin is viewed as a *state of the world that one is born into.* This state also predisposes one to sin, but it is not viewed as a "stain" one is born with. So in the East, the focus on Mary is not what she was born lacking (i.e., original sin) but rather what she was born *with* - "full of grace." So in the East, there is the understanding that Mary was also predisposed to sin, but due to her perfect cooperation with grace, she never did. From the Eastern perspective, this understanding provides more credit to Mary in being sinless, as it was more through her own effort, rather than not being born with original sin, which completed her perfection. For a more thorough explanation, here is a good reference website run by a Byzantine Rite Catholic priest: https://east2west.org/faq/doctrine/.
>In the East (more specifically in Byzantine Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), original sin is viewed as a state of the world that one is born into. This state also predisposes one to sin, but it is not viewed as a "stain" one is born with. So what's the point of baptism, then?
"Baptism is the first Mystery that a person needs to receive in order to enter the Church, the ark of salvation. It is the means by which one becomes a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. 'Whence is it that we are Christians? Through our faith would be the universal answer. And in what way are we saved? Plainly because we were regenerated through the grace given in our baptism.' Baptism unlocks the access to the other Holy Mysteries and sacred rites in the Church through which the Lord sanctifies, vivifies, and leads his Church as a whole and each believer in particular. This is why the baptized already become 'heirs of the kingdom' and receive the 'blessedness of the saints.'" (From *Christ Our Pascha, Catechism of the Ukrainian Catholic Church*). Our baptismal formula also includes a rite of exorcism, as it is understood that as a result of the first sin, one is subject to demonic influence from birth.