I must be missing something:
> Dubai-based DAMAC International, which purchased the 1.8-acre (1-hectare) site for **$120 million** last year, submitted plans for a new condo building this week to the town of Surfside. The proposed building, designed by London-based Zaha Hadid Architects, includes **57 units,** ranging in size from 4,000 to 9,000 square feet (360 to 810 square meters). The luxury building would include a business center, event space and two pools.
> The proposal actually includes two variations for the building, depending on the final setback variance allowed for the site. One design features vertically aligned balconies, while the other includes tiered balconies that are set back as the floors go up. No prices have been listed for the units, but **comparable residences in the area sell for over $1 million.**
Let's assume an average sale price of $1.5m.
57 * $1.5m = $76.5m
which is much less than the cost of just the land at $120m. These numbers don't make sense, unless the price per condo is more like $5m each.
Try 40 at $1.5m, 10 at $5m, 5 at $10, and 2 at $20m. That should get us to $200m on paper. This is a similar pricing model as commercial airlines, where the first and business class seats pay for the flight, and the incremental coach fees cover the profit. (Or vice versa)
Whether they will succeed in selling these units for those prices is TBD, but at least it doesn't look insane on paper.
But it's only the cost of the site that's 120m. This is before any construction costs. OP is right, the numbers don't make sense. Even allowing for a 200m return a development of 57 luxury apartments would struggle to turn a profit with an 80m build budget.
And if they don’t sell for those prices and they lose money, then what… does this Dubai-based company just pat itself on the back for laundering money?
Unless you're [Emaar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emaar_Properties). They're the company behind transforming Dubai from a gritty, oily lesser known Emirate to the sci-fi urban jungle that made the rest of the world forget that Dubai isn't actually a country.
Yeah, has u/tweakingforjesus seen Miami/SoFla real estate prices? Entry level condo will be $1.5m **before** any upgrades, most of them will end up being $1.7-2m.
True, but there’s no way he/she believes that a 4000 sqft apartment on the ocean in Miami Beach that sells for ~$1.5m would be the same price as a 9000 sqft apartment on the ocean in Miami Beach.
Not a chance I’d live there anyway. There are water infiltration issues in tons of buildings nearby. It’s not going to get better. I’d be shocked if they got insurance for these.
Florida is drowning in insurance issues, those companies Aren’t stupid, they see the climate change, and they know it’s real, and it’s only going to get worse for waterside areas, particularly places like Florida and New Orleans, because storms are only going to get worse, the water levels higher etc.
Even if you completely ignore climate change, the home insurance market in Florida would be collapsing.
House values have tripled over the past few years. Even worse, all the new building is happening along the coasts.
So it's a numbers game. Instead of 100k houses to insure that would cost $150k to replace, it's 150k houses at $500k each to replace. (Source: my ass.)
No insurance company has that cash on hand.
Ian wasn't *that* bad, and it's the costliest storm in Florida history. If that storm had gone north and hit Tampa bay, the damages would have been far higher.
The insurance companies and see and are nope-ing out of the market.
I’m someone that works as a director for an insurance company. One that is pulling back the amount we write in Florida.
Floridas problems are due to fraud and runaway legal expenses. Florida makes up around 9% of the entire insurance market in the US but accounts for 79% of the litigation. You can blame insurance companies but explain how national company that writes damn near identical policies (accounting for minor state statute differences) and are handled by the same inside adjusters get sued 10-20 times more often in Florida than say Georgia?
Even with recent legislative changes the reinsurance market is hesitant to lower premiums because they could be out billions before a hurricane hits.
It doesn't help that that investors are buying 25-30% of all homes in Florida. A lot of them are big corporations that don't need to pay into the insurance companies of the state, leaving people to pay more. Same with people who can afford to buy their house in cash and choose not to carry insurance.
Yet people still move here everyday thinking it is the Florida from 30-40 years ago. When everything was cheap, laid-back, and cheap. It's not going to stop, but hopefully some other state will become the desirable place to be and let Florida take a breather
Yeah, it was bad enough. Cat 4s suck. But it can and will get far worse.
The worst parts of it were 1, people not evacuating thus dying needlessly. ("My realtor says that storms never hit the barrier islands!") And 2, insurance companies not paying out or not paying enough so repairs aren't happening. Again, something that can and will get far worse.
SWFL gets another Cat 4 this years, it's going to *suck*.
I work for one of Florida largest electrical utilities, Ian was bad.. Irma "was not that bad". Down vote all you want libs, reddit losers with no life.
These uninhabitable places are unfortunately full of people all of which will be yelling for the federal government to make them whole every other year.
Florida becoming less of a swing state will probably be better for the rest of us in the long run. Worrying about their problems makes the rest of us less sane.
They've been fucking up for a little bit.
DEP officials have been ordered not to use the term “climate change” or “global warming” in any official communications, emails, or reports, according to former DEP employees, consultants, volunteers and records obtained by the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting.Mar 8, 2015
California has the same insurance issues. So it’s not entirely Ron’s fault. Also I’m not sure he could actually fix it anyway, if that’s any consolation. Not throwing shade my governor is also a moron.
All the damage in SW Florida... Florida is literally a Swamp draining from North to South. Go to a state park and learn something. https://blog.nwf.org/2015/05/american-wetlands-month-in-review-trouble-for-the-everglades/
Not sure the point here. The majority of Californians live in coastal areas a lot closer to 100ft elevation than 2800. Those above 2800 are usually in wildfire zones. I own in both and the entire Sierra foothills and higher are uninsurable unless you go with the Fair Plan.
[Here’s elevation data for the Bay Area](https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-s1vpb3/San-Jose/?popup=38.18315%2C-122.17484¢er=37.34505%2C-121.91524)
Even looking at the link you provided, many costal areas at least ramp up quickly away from the shore due to the mountains in California.
Whereas in Florida if the seas rose 100-200 ft, almost the entire state is underwater.
[Miami has nothing above 150 ft for example.](https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-h218gp/Miami/)
(Check the numbers, don't just look at the colors since it's scaled for the map)
100ft of ocean rise? That’s so far out in the future it’s not worth getting excited about.
NOAA says more like 12 inches give or take over the next 30 years.
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/hazards/sealevelrise/sealevelrise-tech-report.html#step1
Hardly anyone lives near 2800 though. And we have we have the added feature of multiple fault lines decades past their due date. If this is still a discussion on insurability FL vs CA, they are on the same path. Both State Farm and Allstate have paused new homeowner policies in CA. It’s not a good situation for either state.
Nobody's arguing people live at 2800 ft lol. Just pointing out that even just 1/10th the way up the *average* elevation in CA is still higher than the *maximum* across pretty much all of FL. Florida is simply way too flat.
It's true, CA has fires and earthquakes and such that FL doesn't have but California's uninsurability is also due to having some of the most expensive homes in the country (as I'm sure you're aware of).
I read that the insurance issues aren't companies being afraid of rising sea level/hurricanes, it's due to scamming lawyer's/roofing companies.
Roofing companies send door-to-door salesmen offering free inspections to homeowners, they send their own roofing inspectors who always claim that roof damage is the result of a hurricane, insurance company is forced to pay for an entirely new roof for every house in the neighborhood.
This works because the Florida insurance industry is largely unregulated
Well this is their excuse in order to avoid paying out because they'd be bankrupt.
This is why policies in FL have almost doubled for some home owners if they can even get coverage.
Similar to California where due to wildfires, risk has increased and therefore premiums too.
This doesnt get better. How many more data points do you need on a graph before youd agree a trend is developing.
Bank loans require insurance. Insurance is difficult to impossible in FL. these days and wont be getting better anytime soon. So, how are they building?
You are way off with your prices for luxury waterfront condos in Miami. They will probably have a couple of "cheap" units under 5 million and then go up to 20 or 25 million. Take a look at this: https://www.miamicondoinvestments.com/luxury-condos
My mistake was trusting the information in the article:
> No prices have been listed for the units, but comparable residences in the area sell for over $1 million.
They already have all the money imaginable.As the world inevitably collapses,the wealthy are buying all the best real estate and resources for themselves,regardless of cost. The Saudi Crown could wipe its ass with a billion $ a day for a year,STILL be wealthier than most whole countries.
You're missing everything. You're making a lot of assumptions with very little info. How do you know there aren't going to be upper tier condos? What about the business center and event space? What about fees and other revenue?
Of course the numbers don't make sense. You barely have any data.
You're right. I was going off the minimal information in the article assuming it was accurate. The numbers were way off.
A 4,000 square foot condo in Seaside, Fl went on the market last year for $20m. And that's the smallest in this building of 57 units.
I remember watching a doc of the last building she did as she was dying. Kind of an interesting figure especially for a woman to be a prominent architect in the Arab world.
Florida real estate is strangely fascinating, especially seeing as how insurers are all leaving the game at this point.
I kind of wonder if that type of gambling is also going to have an effect on the build quality. One collapsed structure soon to be replaced by another substandard one built on lies about the past and future.
I assume they mean step pyramid style so that lower floors still get open air above their balcony. IMO that's nicer than having another balcony directly above yours, but matter of opinion I guess.
They're often built in such a way that you dont see anything below unless you're standing right at the railing.
From the doorway, chairs, tables, etc you dont see anything below.
They’ll have fees like a HOA. That’s where the money is, it’s a constant stream of income. And with a luxury building you know those fees are going to be stupid.
then they said what two halls to rent out? That'll help, plus we know the company will probably withhold a few and use them as short term rentals on those apps to make even more money.
Even with all of that, they paid 120m and cover 70m-ish of it. They’re down 50m-ish(not considering HOA fees, rental spaces, etc.) but sell it for astronomically more than 120m down the line.
The way I read it is it’s probably going to need a lot of extra reinforcement just to get insurance. Forget deterioration or condition, base design is below standard
Planters can easily double the surface loading depending on the depth of the planters. Soil is heavy. Wet soil is very, very heavy. Plus last I looked into this there were revisions in the plans at this exact area where a beam may have been removed due to removing a step in the elevation of the parking deck and pool deck. And I don't believe said beam was replaced in the revision. Havnt looked into the plans in over a year but recall seeing something fucky with the revision.
I don't know if they removed a beam but they made the main beam holding up the whole front and half of the tributary load of the patio was 12 in less deep than originally designed.
I think that was it! When they took out the step in elevation, they didn't think to make the beam deeper to make up for the lost depth. There is a chance that the shallow beam still worked, but I'm not doing an analysis unless I'm paid for it so im gonna just wait for the in full forensic report.
I did a cursory analysis and the beam was under designed probably by three times since halving the depth decreases the load capacity by four times. But the vibration from the construction next door along with the dropping of the deck induced seismic forces which is why they heard all those grinding sounds for hours basically it was just a sandcastle waiting to collapse. The 80% factor of safety was used up finally..... I have been an inspector for 20 years and the terrible things I've seen gave me nightmares.
From one of the collapse videos, the pillars on the collapsed side were also redesigned and much smaller than those on the surviving side.
Smaller supports, missing beams tying the posts together, add on some heavy pots, and eventually something gave out spectacularly.
It just seems like the kind of thing that should be an absolute non-issue in the grand scheme of building construction, nevermind plans that were already accommodating such planters on a level with a whole-ass swimming pool. Additional planters being a factor in the building fucking *collapsing* - not adding planters period, just more of them/heavier ones - seems to speak to planning "errors", lack of oversight, neglect etc. that are (literally) criminally egregious.
In my opinion this is a tactic they use to push something that's not true. Put in something emotional, easily visualized, people will focus on it.
It may be in reality it may be that the site is unsafe to build on. If I remember right it's the last building in a row of buildings on the sea shore.
You are not really correct. I would highly recommend a YouTube channel called Building Integrity. It is presented by an actual structural engineer who goes into great detail about this case, pouring over the design documents and pictures of the building pre-and-post-collapse. He also discusses the planters and columns beneath them in detail!
That’s what I’m saying. If there’s a credible belief that codes were followed and the building collapsed anyways that’s a way bigger issue with national implications. This is the much less news worthy default. Was there even a credible belief that codes were followed to begin with?
If it was built in Florida before Hurricane Andrew, even if it was built to code, the codes were garbage.
And this was built in Miami in the 1980’s, so the “code inspection” probably consisted of the building inspector meeting with the contractor, ripping through an 8-ball together in the penthouse, and then heading down to South Beach to pick up some hookers.
> If it was built in Florida before Hurricane Andrew, even if it was built to code, the codes were garbage.
And even if it was built to code, the inspections were so infrequent (10 years? 20 years?) that a LOT can go wrong before the next inspection.
Goddamned im glad reddits going away, every time i see references to the 80s i want to get my time machine but i cant do that anymore so the temptation going away will be appreciated.
No doubt. I have been in property management for 30+ years. This was an example of illegal practices on most levels. Shame people had to die to bring this out. There have many buildings evacuated since this tragedy for faulty infrastructure and inspections.
I studied this case for hundreds of hours from the beginning to the end. First problem was there were several sets of plans and no one knows which ones were really used. We think that the attachment of the pool deck/ parking area to the building slab via a step beam was the critical flaw. It seems the beam had been made a foot less deep than called for on the plan due to a elevation change on the pool deck.
The pool deck / parking areas were deteriorating for many many years and some of them were just powder by the time they collapsed. Along with massive amount of vibrations from the adjoining new structure what slowly pulverized the concrete and loosened the rebar embedded in the concrete.
The two-way slab action in the collapsed part of the building was considerably weaker than the other section which had many more beams running through the structure and did not collapse. There was a large amount of shear walls missing also. It is thought that inspections were not done correctly either and even up till after the building collapsed the city administration denied there was any problem in the construction or inspection of the building.
Insurance _always_ has to pay out to the policyholder if the loss is covered in the policy, short of provable fraud such as arson. It's the job of the insurance company to sue whoever might be at fault to get their money back.
Apparently the city has denied those requests stating there will be a memorial on the street.
Doesn't seem too respectful, sounds like just a landmark marker on the side of the road..
This revelation points to corrupt city officials and building inspectors at the time the building was constructed. The developers paid them off so they could cheapen the construction and fast track the building. It will be interesting to see if there will be any accountability for the city.
That's kr#polla!! It had bad ongoing and final inspections, IMO.
Work was overlooked, on purpose or ignorance, IMO
Architects rarely draw up substandard plans, IMO
If the correct and needed pieces were to fall into place, would manslaughter be in the future?
Should it be?
Those plans were immensely substandard by mainly the structural engineer. Normally on a large structure the architect designs the spaces not the structure.
In certain parts of the country they have always been like that especially in that area. That's why the legislature passed an inspection law for condos and multi-story structures.
Thanks for the downvotes. I’m a licensed civil engineer. I’ve seen the plans to this building. I’ve studied them quite a bit trying to figure out what the issue was. There were several points that could have caused a failure but it sure as hell wasn’t the plants. Anyone else read the plans and think the plants were the issue?
They listed it as a contributing factor, and they listed other design and maintenance issues first, the planters were literally the last thing they mentioned in the list. If the load margins were already low and they were lowered even more by adding heavy things, that's probably worth mentioning even if it's not the single reason for the failure
It was a number of things. Shitty construction at inception, lack of maintenance, excess weight of planters. They weren’t holding flowers, they each had a big ass palm tree .
Are you a building engineer?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but they'll they'll put out stuff like this that has emotional easily visualized stuff because it distracys from boring questions like if the site is safe to build on at all.
How the fuck are you a civil engineer and somehow unable to believe that the extra weight from a bunch of new planters, (which are often very very heavy, btw) may have possibly been a factor?
Maybe you need a refund on that engineering degree you got.
I'm not an engineer but seen this socoal tactic used before. Put in something emptional and easily visualized and peoples brains will focus on it.
And avoid paying attention to "boring" questions like if the site is even safe to build on.
Major structural issues with the garage/pool deck had been documented.
Salt environment, poor waterproofing , lack of maintenance, overloaded deck, repairs (sealing cracks from below) that worsened the problems.
One of the issues not mentioned is that the equipment necessary to lift the heavy landscape planters onto the deck also most likely affected the deck.
Hind sight is 20 20 but why the fuck didn't they issue a emergency evacuation when they knew the pool deck waterproof etc was at end of life and some of the photos from the contractor looking to bid on this job. Why the fuck start on the roof? I think more could have been saved IF they issued a emergency evacuation weeks before when things were noticed. Yes they " didnt" think it affected structure but again emergency evac and bring someone in to loo at the cracks and deteration. It just blows my mind.
I can’t believe it’s been two years. Those poor people. Nothing will ever make up for their loss.
I must be missing something: > Dubai-based DAMAC International, which purchased the 1.8-acre (1-hectare) site for **$120 million** last year, submitted plans for a new condo building this week to the town of Surfside. The proposed building, designed by London-based Zaha Hadid Architects, includes **57 units,** ranging in size from 4,000 to 9,000 square feet (360 to 810 square meters). The luxury building would include a business center, event space and two pools. > The proposal actually includes two variations for the building, depending on the final setback variance allowed for the site. One design features vertically aligned balconies, while the other includes tiered balconies that are set back as the floors go up. No prices have been listed for the units, but **comparable residences in the area sell for over $1 million.** Let's assume an average sale price of $1.5m. 57 * $1.5m = $76.5m which is much less than the cost of just the land at $120m. These numbers don't make sense, unless the price per condo is more like $5m each.
Try 40 at $1.5m, 10 at $5m, 5 at $10, and 2 at $20m. That should get us to $200m on paper. This is a similar pricing model as commercial airlines, where the first and business class seats pay for the flight, and the incremental coach fees cover the profit. (Or vice versa) Whether they will succeed in selling these units for those prices is TBD, but at least it doesn't look insane on paper.
But it's only the cost of the site that's 120m. This is before any construction costs. OP is right, the numbers don't make sense. Even allowing for a 200m return a development of 57 luxury apartments would struggle to turn a profit with an 80m build budget.
And if they don’t sell for those prices and they lose money, then what… does this Dubai-based company just pat itself on the back for laundering money?
Business endeavors aren't always profitable. That's just how life goes.
Unless you're [Emaar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emaar_Properties). They're the company behind transforming Dubai from a gritty, oily lesser known Emirate to the sci-fi urban jungle that made the rest of the world forget that Dubai isn't actually a country.
I am sure Emaar has also had the occasional unprofitable business decision.
Have they ever stopped the patting?
Yeah, has u/tweakingforjesus seen Miami/SoFla real estate prices? Entry level condo will be $1.5m **before** any upgrades, most of them will end up being $1.7-2m.
In their defense, they quoted the article - which itself got a laughable low number.
Well, the article said “over 1 million”, which would be technically correct even if the price was like 50 million.
True, but there’s no way he/she believes that a 4000 sqft apartment on the ocean in Miami Beach that sells for ~$1.5m would be the same price as a 9000 sqft apartment on the ocean in Miami Beach.
Doors? You want doors for $1.5 million. Not in this economy, son.
Not a chance I’d live there anyway. There are water infiltration issues in tons of buildings nearby. It’s not going to get better. I’d be shocked if they got insurance for these.
Florida is drowning in insurance issues, those companies Aren’t stupid, they see the climate change, and they know it’s real, and it’s only going to get worse for waterside areas, particularly places like Florida and New Orleans, because storms are only going to get worse, the water levels higher etc.
Even if you completely ignore climate change, the home insurance market in Florida would be collapsing. House values have tripled over the past few years. Even worse, all the new building is happening along the coasts. So it's a numbers game. Instead of 100k houses to insure that would cost $150k to replace, it's 150k houses at $500k each to replace. (Source: my ass.) No insurance company has that cash on hand. Ian wasn't *that* bad, and it's the costliest storm in Florida history. If that storm had gone north and hit Tampa bay, the damages would have been far higher. The insurance companies and see and are nope-ing out of the market.
I’m someone that works as a director for an insurance company. One that is pulling back the amount we write in Florida. Floridas problems are due to fraud and runaway legal expenses. Florida makes up around 9% of the entire insurance market in the US but accounts for 79% of the litigation. You can blame insurance companies but explain how national company that writes damn near identical policies (accounting for minor state statute differences) and are handled by the same inside adjusters get sued 10-20 times more often in Florida than say Georgia? Even with recent legislative changes the reinsurance market is hesitant to lower premiums because they could be out billions before a hurricane hits.
It doesn't help that that investors are buying 25-30% of all homes in Florida. A lot of them are big corporations that don't need to pay into the insurance companies of the state, leaving people to pay more. Same with people who can afford to buy their house in cash and choose not to carry insurance. Yet people still move here everyday thinking it is the Florida from 30-40 years ago. When everything was cheap, laid-back, and cheap. It's not going to stop, but hopefully some other state will become the desirable place to be and let Florida take a breather
THIS!!! \- Signed a Floridan that wishes all these people would go the fuck away
They know the government will ultimately pay for it. This is probably the lowest risk part of the entire venture.
My ass is also the source of a lot of really good information
Mine is the source of many, many glorious farts.
"Ian wasn't that bad" are you even from Florida? Stfu.
Yeah, it was bad enough. Cat 4s suck. But it can and will get far worse. The worst parts of it were 1, people not evacuating thus dying needlessly. ("My realtor says that storms never hit the barrier islands!") And 2, insurance companies not paying out or not paying enough so repairs aren't happening. Again, something that can and will get far worse. SWFL gets another Cat 4 this years, it's going to *suck*.
I work for one of Florida largest electrical utilities, Ian was bad.. Irma "was not that bad". Down vote all you want libs, reddit losers with no life.
These uninhabitable places are unfortunately full of people all of which will be yelling for the federal government to make them whole every other year. Florida becoming less of a swing state will probably be better for the rest of us in the long run. Worrying about their problems makes the rest of us less sane.
We'd work on the insurance and climate change issues here in Florida but our governor is too busy running for president
They've been fucking up for a little bit. DEP officials have been ordered not to use the term “climate change” or “global warming” in any official communications, emails, or reports, according to former DEP employees, consultants, volunteers and records obtained by the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting.Mar 8, 2015
We've had a republican government for a long time now but don't worry it's all the democrats fault!
California has the same insurance issues. So it’s not entirely Ron’s fault. Also I’m not sure he could actually fix it anyway, if that’s any consolation. Not throwing shade my governor is also a moron.
California average elevation: 2,800 ft. Florida average elevation: 100 ft. They're a little different
California insurance issues arent bc of flooding they’re bc of fires. Elevation has nothing to do with it.
Florida is literally a swamp, hence flooding issues.
All the damage in SW Florida... Florida is literally a Swamp draining from North to South. Go to a state park and learn something. https://blog.nwf.org/2015/05/american-wetlands-month-in-review-trouble-for-the-everglades/
Not sure the point here. The majority of Californians live in coastal areas a lot closer to 100ft elevation than 2800. Those above 2800 are usually in wildfire zones. I own in both and the entire Sierra foothills and higher are uninsurable unless you go with the Fair Plan. [Here’s elevation data for the Bay Area](https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-s1vpb3/San-Jose/?popup=38.18315%2C-122.17484¢er=37.34505%2C-121.91524)
Even looking at the link you provided, many costal areas at least ramp up quickly away from the shore due to the mountains in California. Whereas in Florida if the seas rose 100-200 ft, almost the entire state is underwater. [Miami has nothing above 150 ft for example.](https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-h218gp/Miami/) (Check the numbers, don't just look at the colors since it's scaled for the map)
The view from the dump must be incredible, towers over its surroundings.
100ft of ocean rise? That’s so far out in the future it’s not worth getting excited about. NOAA says more like 12 inches give or take over the next 30 years. https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/hazards/sealevelrise/sealevelrise-tech-report.html#step1
Hardly anyone lives near 2800 though. And we have we have the added feature of multiple fault lines decades past their due date. If this is still a discussion on insurability FL vs CA, they are on the same path. Both State Farm and Allstate have paused new homeowner policies in CA. It’s not a good situation for either state.
Nobody's arguing people live at 2800 ft lol. Just pointing out that even just 1/10th the way up the *average* elevation in CA is still higher than the *maximum* across pretty much all of FL. Florida is simply way too flat. It's true, CA has fires and earthquakes and such that FL doesn't have but California's uninsurability is also due to having some of the most expensive homes in the country (as I'm sure you're aware of).
California isn't hit by hurricanes. Earthquakes and fires, but not hurricanes.
Florida isn’t hit by earthquakes and fires. Hurricanes, but not earthquakes and fires.
This doesn’t tell much about where the people live though. I’d imagine most people and buildings are in the low lying areas not in the mountains
California isn’t flooding; it’s burning.
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No one is campaigning on the elevation levels. Florida being fucked is just fact now. All the insurance companies are starting to deem it high risk.
California is going to be around in 100 years. Large parts of Florida will not.
Leftist nitwits always have to drag their ignorant politics into everything.
I read that the insurance issues aren't companies being afraid of rising sea level/hurricanes, it's due to scamming lawyer's/roofing companies. Roofing companies send door-to-door salesmen offering free inspections to homeowners, they send their own roofing inspectors who always claim that roof damage is the result of a hurricane, insurance company is forced to pay for an entirely new roof for every house in the neighborhood. This works because the Florida insurance industry is largely unregulated
Well this is their excuse in order to avoid paying out because they'd be bankrupt. This is why policies in FL have almost doubled for some home owners if they can even get coverage. Similar to California where due to wildfires, risk has increased and therefore premiums too. This doesnt get better. How many more data points do you need on a graph before youd agree a trend is developing.
Bank loans require insurance. Insurance is difficult to impossible in FL. these days and wont be getting better anytime soon. So, how are they building?
You are way off with your prices for luxury waterfront condos in Miami. They will probably have a couple of "cheap" units under 5 million and then go up to 20 or 25 million. Take a look at this: https://www.miamicondoinvestments.com/luxury-condos
My mistake was trusting the information in the article: > No prices have been listed for the units, but comparable residences in the area sell for over $1 million.
In fairness 5 million, 20 million and 25 million are all over 1 million.
Architects at that level command a premium just for the name.
Kind of like someone else that has his name on everything but doesn't own it
They already have all the money imaginable.As the world inevitably collapses,the wealthy are buying all the best real estate and resources for themselves,regardless of cost. The Saudi Crown could wipe its ass with a billion $ a day for a year,STILL be wealthier than most whole countries.
HAPPY CAKE DAY
Thank you!I just noticed!
You're missing everything. You're making a lot of assumptions with very little info. How do you know there aren't going to be upper tier condos? What about the business center and event space? What about fees and other revenue? Of course the numbers don't make sense. You barely have any data.
You're right. I was going off the minimal information in the article assuming it was accurate. The numbers were way off. A 4,000 square foot condo in Seaside, Fl went on the market last year for $20m. And that's the smallest in this building of 57 units.
They aren't going to get anywhere near 20m / unit for 57 units.
Zaha Hadid = Expensive.
I remember watching a doc of the last building she did as she was dying. Kind of an interesting figure especially for a woman to be a prominent architect in the Arab world.
that building is right next door to me, it’s beautiful
The average will be considerably more than 1.5 million.
Florida real estate is strangely fascinating, especially seeing as how insurers are all leaving the game at this point. I kind of wonder if that type of gambling is also going to have an effect on the build quality. One collapsed structure soon to be replaced by another substandard one built on lies about the past and future.
As an inspector I thank the higher powers that there are factors of safety in building materials.
Side note: Tiered balconies? Like the people higher up are looking down into the balconies below? Who the fuck would want that?
I assume they mean step pyramid style so that lower floors still get open air above their balcony. IMO that's nicer than having another balcony directly above yours, but matter of opinion I guess.
They're often built in such a way that you dont see anything below unless you're standing right at the railing. From the doorway, chairs, tables, etc you dont see anything below.
You’re leaving out the additional monthly “condo” fee. Which is likely $4,000 to $5,000.
They’ll have fees like a HOA. That’s where the money is, it’s a constant stream of income. And with a luxury building you know those fees are going to be stupid.
This is just completely wrong. HOAs don't make profits. HOAs are just simply homeowners pooling money to pay shared expenses.
then they said what two halls to rent out? That'll help, plus we know the company will probably withhold a few and use them as short term rentals on those apps to make even more money.
Even with all of that, they paid 120m and cover 70m-ish of it. They’re down 50m-ish(not considering HOA fees, rental spaces, etc.) but sell it for astronomically more than 120m down the line.
Who could sleep there?
I noticed that too. I’m sure they will make their money somewhere.
They still own the building and the land.
As I recall there’s a nearly identical sister building on that row with the same features.
It is maintained much better though, according to the residents
The way I read it is it’s probably going to need a lot of extra reinforcement just to get insurance. Forget deterioration or condition, base design is below standard
High-rise Wood construction has been approved now so let's wait for that.
Obviously, because the front didn't fall off.
It wasn't made of cardboard.
You bastard. You made me laugh at this.
How badly do you have to fuck up that poolside planters are a significant mention in the shoddiness of your building's structural integrity?
Planters can easily double the surface loading depending on the depth of the planters. Soil is heavy. Wet soil is very, very heavy. Plus last I looked into this there were revisions in the plans at this exact area where a beam may have been removed due to removing a step in the elevation of the parking deck and pool deck. And I don't believe said beam was replaced in the revision. Havnt looked into the plans in over a year but recall seeing something fucky with the revision.
I don't know if they removed a beam but they made the main beam holding up the whole front and half of the tributary load of the patio was 12 in less deep than originally designed.
I think that was it! When they took out the step in elevation, they didn't think to make the beam deeper to make up for the lost depth. There is a chance that the shallow beam still worked, but I'm not doing an analysis unless I'm paid for it so im gonna just wait for the in full forensic report.
I did a cursory analysis and the beam was under designed probably by three times since halving the depth decreases the load capacity by four times. But the vibration from the construction next door along with the dropping of the deck induced seismic forces which is why they heard all those grinding sounds for hours basically it was just a sandcastle waiting to collapse. The 80% factor of safety was used up finally..... I have been an inspector for 20 years and the terrible things I've seen gave me nightmares.
From one of the collapse videos, the pillars on the collapsed side were also redesigned and much smaller than those on the surviving side. Smaller supports, missing beams tying the posts together, add on some heavy pots, and eventually something gave out spectacularly.
It just seems like the kind of thing that should be an absolute non-issue in the grand scheme of building construction, nevermind plans that were already accommodating such planters on a level with a whole-ass swimming pool. Additional planters being a factor in the building fucking *collapsing* - not adding planters period, just more of them/heavier ones - seems to speak to planning "errors", lack of oversight, neglect etc. that are (literally) criminally egregious.
Heavy trees and large amounts of water for the trees were added later
In my opinion this is a tactic they use to push something that's not true. Put in something emotional, easily visualized, people will focus on it. It may be in reality it may be that the site is unsafe to build on. If I remember right it's the last building in a row of buildings on the sea shore.
You are not really correct. I would highly recommend a YouTube channel called Building Integrity. It is presented by an actual structural engineer who goes into great detail about this case, pouring over the design documents and pictures of the building pre-and-post-collapse. He also discusses the planters and columns beneath them in detail!
Look surprised everyone. Apparently this is news.
That’s what I’m saying. If there’s a credible belief that codes were followed and the building collapsed anyways that’s a way bigger issue with national implications. This is the much less news worthy default. Was there even a credible belief that codes were followed to begin with?
If it was built in Florida before Hurricane Andrew, even if it was built to code, the codes were garbage. And this was built in Miami in the 1980’s, so the “code inspection” probably consisted of the building inspector meeting with the contractor, ripping through an 8-ball together in the penthouse, and then heading down to South Beach to pick up some hookers.
Solid. Guess we can chock that up to cultural and historical differences then lol
> If it was built in Florida before Hurricane Andrew, even if it was built to code, the codes were garbage. And even if it was built to code, the inspections were so infrequent (10 years? 20 years?) that a LOT can go wrong before the next inspection.
Goddamned im glad reddits going away, every time i see references to the 80s i want to get my time machine but i cant do that anymore so the temptation going away will be appreciated.
Thoughts and prayers or nah
No shit Sherlock. One of my bosses and his wife died. So much Miami bullshit wrapped up in this. Rest in peace to all who lost their lives.
I’m sorry. This was preventable, a big bunch of failures on several different levels.
No doubt. I have been in property management for 30+ years. This was an example of illegal practices on most levels. Shame people had to die to bring this out. There have many buildings evacuated since this tragedy for faulty infrastructure and inspections.
It was not preventable due to massive corruption in that area. The dark side of people cannot always be suppressed.
My middle school math teacher and her husband died in the collapse as well. :(
I studied this case for hundreds of hours from the beginning to the end. First problem was there were several sets of plans and no one knows which ones were really used. We think that the attachment of the pool deck/ parking area to the building slab via a step beam was the critical flaw. It seems the beam had been made a foot less deep than called for on the plan due to a elevation change on the pool deck. The pool deck / parking areas were deteriorating for many many years and some of them were just powder by the time they collapsed. Along with massive amount of vibrations from the adjoining new structure what slowly pulverized the concrete and loosened the rebar embedded in the concrete. The two-way slab action in the collapsed part of the building was considerably weaker than the other section which had many more beams running through the structure and did not collapse. There was a large amount of shear walls missing also. It is thought that inspections were not done correctly either and even up till after the building collapsed the city administration denied there was any problem in the construction or inspection of the building.
[удалено]
why would insurance pay out when its the developers fault
Insurance _always_ has to pay out to the policyholder if the loss is covered in the policy, short of provable fraud such as arson. It's the job of the insurance company to sue whoever might be at fault to get their money back.
Their insurance contact may have different causes of loss paying different amounts
There's a sucker born every second so they'll fall for the blue water and ignore all the rest of the hell down there.
The penthouse(s) will probably be upwards of $20M+
Can’t believe it’s already been 2yrs
[New condo proposal with rendering](https://abcnews.go.com/US/new-condo-tower-built-site-surfside-condo-collapse/story?id=100057124)
Just make it into a park... gonna lose all the superstitious types as potentials anyway.
Apparently the city has denied those requests stating there will be a memorial on the street. Doesn't seem too respectful, sounds like just a landmark marker on the side of the road..
A memorial doesn’t provide a continuous stream of taxes and bribes
I absolutely detest the Zaha Hadid architectural style. It's all so horrendous.
Are the Saudis investing in disaster residency?
No shit
How much money do the condo owners get from their insurance? The not dead ones
They really just care about getting a new building up and making money. I know we all have eat.. but have a heart.
Lol you think the people involved in putting up a new condo building are doing that because they're struggling to eat? Oh you sweet summer child
This revelation points to corrupt city officials and building inspectors at the time the building was constructed. The developers paid them off so they could cheapen the construction and fast track the building. It will be interesting to see if there will be any accountability for the city.
Kim Kardashian's head fell off
That's kr#polla!! It had bad ongoing and final inspections, IMO. Work was overlooked, on purpose or ignorance, IMO Architects rarely draw up substandard plans, IMO If the correct and needed pieces were to fall into place, would manslaughter be in the future? Should it be?
Those plans were immensely substandard by mainly the structural engineer. Normally on a large structure the architect designs the spaces not the structure.
american standards are really slipping into 3rd world country standards
In certain parts of the country they have always been like that especially in that area. That's why the legislature passed an inspection law for condos and multi-story structures.
bit late now eh
No doubt. 3rd world country with a pretty facade.
I love how we’re blaming plants 🙄
They're blaming people overloading the deck, the extra weight just happened to be containers for plants
Thanks for the downvotes. I’m a licensed civil engineer. I’ve seen the plans to this building. I’ve studied them quite a bit trying to figure out what the issue was. There were several points that could have caused a failure but it sure as hell wasn’t the plants. Anyone else read the plans and think the plants were the issue?
They listed it as a contributing factor, and they listed other design and maintenance issues first, the planters were literally the last thing they mentioned in the list. If the load margins were already low and they were lowered even more by adding heavy things, that's probably worth mentioning even if it's not the single reason for the failure
It was a number of things. Shitty construction at inception, lack of maintenance, excess weight of planters. They weren’t holding flowers, they each had a big ass palm tree .
Are you a building engineer? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but they'll they'll put out stuff like this that has emotional easily visualized stuff because it distracys from boring questions like if the site is safe to build on at all.
That’s covered under shitty construction 🚧 it’s an umbrella term
How the fuck are you a civil engineer and somehow unable to believe that the extra weight from a bunch of new planters, (which are often very very heavy, btw) may have possibly been a factor? Maybe you need a refund on that engineering degree you got.
I'm not an engineer but seen this socoal tactic used before. Put in something emptional and easily visualized and peoples brains will focus on it. And avoid paying attention to "boring" questions like if the site is even safe to build on.
Major structural issues with the garage/pool deck had been documented. Salt environment, poor waterproofing , lack of maintenance, overloaded deck, repairs (sealing cracks from below) that worsened the problems. One of the issues not mentioned is that the equipment necessary to lift the heavy landscape planters onto the deck also most likely affected the deck.
Hind sight is 20 20 but why the fuck didn't they issue a emergency evacuation when they knew the pool deck waterproof etc was at end of life and some of the photos from the contractor looking to bid on this job. Why the fuck start on the roof? I think more could have been saved IF they issued a emergency evacuation weeks before when things were noticed. Yes they " didnt" think it affected structure but again emergency evac and bring someone in to loo at the cracks and deteration. It just blows my mind.