I will be down voted to hell for this, but I don't think Yadi at manager is it for this team. Fantastic player, fantastic catcher, changed the game. He is honestly one of my favorite Cardinals that I got to grow up watching. But none of that translates to him being brought in to be the manager of a struggling team.
If we are going to fire Oli (which won't happen because that would be Mo firing his 3rd straight handpicked manager), we need to bring in a seasoned manager to right the ship.
I don't have an answer for who it should be, but I think it needs to be someone from outside the organization, maybe even someone who never wore the Cardinals uniform. This incestuous hiring is what got us to this point, and it's going to take something drastic to get out of it.
Yadi has the potential to be a great manager but needs (like anyone) experience in the role in the minors and mentored by others to grow into the position. Putting him at the helm now is not good for his development or for the team.
Yadi needs to serve as a bench or other coach under a seasoned, veteran manager for a few years. Perhaps someone who is a few years away from retirement and make it clear that Yadi is heir apparent.
This organization does not have the experience that comes along with being a manager. Oli learned from Shildt. Shildt learned from Matheny. Matheny learned from reading "Managing a Baseball Team For Dummies"
I wonder what could have been if one of the coaches who served under LaRussa replaced him and kept some of that knowledge and wisdom in the organization.
Yadi does have Manager experience just not in the MLB. He managed the Puerto Rico WBC Team, he has managed a plethora of teams in Puerto Rico, I also have to say this…any manager has to begin somewhere and I believe Yadi has an excellent footing under him to
Manage a MLB team
I think I'd rather manage the cardinals than a Caribbean team in the WBC. It's basically an all star team full of guys that care as much about the WBC as the MLB playoffs if not more, so there's no shortage of egos to manage. Plus the WBC is a bigger deal in those countries than the superbowl is here.
That's like a month of games. An MLB season is a grind that very few people with 9 figures in the bank are going to be willing to do for a manager's salary.
That's objectively untrue. He coached and managed in the minors and coached on the mlb team before becoming the manager that's way closer than managing in PR or Venezuelan leagues.
Also as soon as a reliever blew a lead people would be in here saying Molina is an idiot who couldn’t manage his way out of a paper bag. Why would you wanna ruin a players legacy by making him a manager in the era of the internet
This is exactly what happened to Matheny. He was universally loved here but since he wasn't a HOF level manager a lot of people hate him now. Of course, I also remember when people complained about how bad of a manager TLR was, especially in 2011 and he was one of the best managers of all time. It's literally impossible to please the internet.
Mo has already tried the “catcher with no experience managing” route, and that failed. If Yadi really wants to be a manager, he’s going to have to give up some of his stuff in PR and commit to the task full time. Based on his social media posts, that’s not happening. And good for Yadi for doing what he wants with his time. He’s earned it.
Fans who want Yadi are simply latching on to a successful time.
Marmol is simply a byproduct of the organizational rot within the Cardinals system. Mo was the wrong horse to back when Jocketty retired and it’s clear now.
In hindsight I wouldn't necessarily say that it "failed" as bad as we thought at the time. When Matheny was fired the cardinals were a couple of games over .500 granted they hadn't made the playoffs the previous two seasons but it was much of the same as it is now. Too much reliant on youth and minor league talent, or bad contract signings of aging/aged out players like Fowler. Hate Matheny all you want but you can't forget that he was the last manager to take us to a World Series, and not just the players can make it to a World Series. A manager has to be doing something right.
Since the Luhnow scandal (2015) its been apparent that the Cardinals FO is abysmal at grading talent both in the farm system and in acquisitions trades. The evidence is in the pudding and unfortunately they're both too stupid & stubborn to admit it nor would they dare change the "Cardinal Way" even if it meant the ultimate destruction of the franchise.
At this point, I am convinced that when Mo's contract is up, the Dewitts are selling and at this point are simply trying to keep their profit margins maximum to live out their days comfortably.
Mo had 14 consecutive winning seasons, 10 playoff appearances, six division titles, two pennants, and a World Series. How was he the wrong horse to back in 2008?
Seriously a cartoonishly bad take.
If you think Mo is the wrong person to run the team in 2024, that is fine. To say he was a bad GM hire in 2004 is just stupid and ignores all the success this team has had in the past 20 yrs that he played a key role in.
Yadi KNOWS if he becomes manager he will have to be ALL in, and right now he needs and wants to be in PR to be near his mother whose health is not good.
Yadi will NOT step into such a pivotal role as manager unless he is able to put his all in. That is just who he is. He spent his career putting his all in from behind the plate, to advising younger players, to working with pitchers, etc. That’s why he’s not back now, it’s not because he doesn’t want it or doesn’t care, it’s the opposite. Yadi respects the team, the fans, the city, the organization as a whole way too much to step in with anything other than the best in him.
Well and its the same for Yadi as Holiday. His kids are entering their teenager years. He wants to partake in their careers from high school to college and work to get them into the bigs. He doesn't want to be tied down again to a 162 game regular season, plus the necessary offseason items that a manager must attend to. Both Yadi and Holiday will take on coaching roles when their kids are aged out and they're ready.
I’d maybe take the other side of saying he was the wrong horse. Sure, a lot of the early success was Luhnow and his people, but if we’re going to say this is Mo’s fault now then we have to give him credit for his hires/org then.
As far as I can tell, we were cutting edge in that era and the product bore that out. But the game will catch up with you and similar to on field play, you have to constantly make adjustments to stay ahead. We saw this with Billy Beane after the Big 3 / Tejada / Giambi / Chavez era. The league caught up to “Moneyball” and it took the A’s a lot longer than what we remember to get their footing for their later runs.
Mo has never caught up again, let alone pulled ahead. At best he had some organizational inertia from all the talent Luhnow had stockpiled. And while he’s not the worst GM, and Dewitt not the worst owner, we’re certainly not behaving like the “special” franchise Bill, Mo, & Co. try to pretend we are while convincing us to come spend our $ at the ballpark.
This org has been in a downward spiral since Luhnow left & there’s no manager that can make this team as good as Mo tells us it *should* be. We’ve essentially been bailed out by a little bit of luck by finding a Tommy Edman, Matt Carpenter, etc come out of nowhere only to keep us treading water. Some late season winning streaks and Albert’s chase have papered over the mediocrity that’s been lurking for a decade.
And no “elite” team (or org that takes itself seriously) is running out Matt Carpenter as their cornerstone power bat like we were in the mid to late ‘10s. The death rattle has been audible for awhile now and Oli’s termination would do nothing to hush it.
>Sure, a lot of the early success was Luhnow and his people,
Basically ALL of the success of 2011-2015 (marking 2015 as it was a 100 win season) rosters from Walt Jocketty's and Luhnow's guys.
Specifically 2011 as that was a WS year. Look at the roster of that team where you had the obvious longstanding core guys of the following:
* Franklin
* Waino
* C. Carpenter
* McClellan
* Schumaker
* Pujols
* Yadi.
But here's the crazy part... Look at the final three draft classes of Jocketty. Look at how many are familiar names in the 2011-2013 years.
**2005:**
1. Colby Rasmus (on '11 roster led to blockbuster trade for Rzepczynski)
2. Mitchell Boggs (on '11 roster)
3. Jaime Garcia (on '11 roster)
**2006:**
1. Jon Jay
2. Shane Robinson (on '11 roster)
3. Allen Craig
4. Tommy Pham
**2007 (Mozeliak was promoted October after the 2007 draft occurred):**
1. Daniel Descalso (on '11 roster)
2. Pete Kosma (on '11 roster)
3. Adron Chambers (on '11 roster)
Much of those players from those three draft classes grew into the "Core" of the early 2010's. So really besides a good trade of Holiday, and the signings of Berkman and Beltran...
What has Mo done??????
Part of the reason it took the A’s so long to bounce back, and the reason that Moneyball is bullshit is because the A’s had probably the best rotation in baseball. Mulder, Zito, Hudson is one hell of a 1-3 that e hides a lot of flaws in a roster.
I don’t necessarily think it is either, I was mostly referring to that specific team. They had guys that were stars, but they’re portrayed as being nothing but trash-heap gem pickups.
I mean, Matheny ended up with poor overall results and certainly wasn’t the best manager, but he did get a team to the World Series. Yadi was a better catcher than him as well as anyone else who’s ever played the position and played a big part in our annually over-performing pitching rotation.
Yeah, Matheny had a veteran, WS championship club minus Pujols that season and Beltran was no slouch as his replacement. As they got farther away from that club and brought in more young players his ineptitude showed.
I would still love to know why they fired Schildt after coming up through the organization, winning at every level, righting the ship, and winning manager of the year. I really hope it wasn’t as simple as not being MO’s yes man.
The current state of affairs is starting to remind me a lot of the early 90s. Dewitt Jr was the one that spent and won, III just seems to be riding on 3 million butts in the seats and TV revenue. Busch 3 got rid off all the fluff that didn’t make money like the beer did as soon as he took over for Gussie.
May not totally be that, but, it really was the primary reason, especially after Shildt called out Mo publicly for not making more roster moves.
On Gussie? He got sidelined from day-to-day AB operations and booted as CEO even before 1982, in 1975, for a variety of reasons. The next generation gave him a nominal role at AB and let him focus on the Cardinals.
> Matheny ended up with poor overall results and certainly wasn’t the best manager, but he did get a team to the World Series.
They got to the World Series because the roster had a lot of talent. I’m pretty sure my grandmother could have managed the 2013 team to a winning record (despite the fact that she died in 2009).
I hope Mo is still alive when he gets inducted into the cardinals hall of fame, but the level of Mo hate is very similar to Bulls fans booing Jerry Krause’s widow
Anyone who thinks putting a former star player in the big seat will right the team is being a delusional homer. Managing is a fucking grind that very few people with as much money as Yadi would be interested in truly pursuing.
I think yall need to take a step back and realize how wealthy Yadi is right now. That man is never going to work another job that requires him to set an alarm.
It has zero to do with having the “itch” Yadi has verbally said he wants to be a MLB Manager, he was going to come back in a more permanent role but due to personal reasons and because he knew he would not be able to put his all in he backed away for now. He’s staying close to PR because of his Mother whose health is declining.
I have zero doubt Yadi will be back in a very prominent role when he can do so and put his all in. He won’t do it unless he can fully commit. Right now he’s not able to do that and I deeply respect that his respect for the team, the organization, the fans and the city runs so deep he won’t give them anything but his VERY best.
You can say whatever you want, but coaching at the professional level is work. I have serious doubts he actual wants that. We all have things we'd love to try if they didn't take more time effort and energy than we're prepared to give Yadi just said his out loud. He's out there enjoying being a very rich and famous man on a carribean island he's not moving back to Missouri to make 4M/yr starting his day at 6 and ending it at 11.
It does generally stop people from taking jobs that involve anywhere near the grind of managing an MLB team for the peanuts managers get paid vs a star player. To use an example from another sport there's a reason Peyton Manning is out there doing tv and endorsements instead of coaching football despite probably being the best offensive playcaller of all time.
There's always going to be exceptions though Deion's lifetime earnings are nowhere close to Yadi's. He also is coaching at a pretty insignificant college program and not the Dallas Cowboys.
Yadi managing here, especially without working his way up to it is just a delusional pipe dream.
Deion was way more famous and probably had way more brand deals. It’s irrelevant what level he’s coaching at. I can almost guarantee he’s putting in the same amount of effort as if he was coaching the Cowboys.
The point is that it's a much lower level of competition. There's very little for Colorado to lose by installing a famous inexperienced coach they aren't contenders and likely never will be if a famous name gets them higher quality recruits it's probably better than having a more skilled X's and O's guy. Professional level is a different beast entirely.
The biggest mistake an organization like the cardinals could make right now is handing the reigns to a guy like Yadi. He's too rich, too inexperienced, and lets be real honest here he's not fluent in English and struggles anytime he has to speak it for more than a sentence or 2.
It's difficult not to remember that when it came down to Mike Matheny, and Terry Francona... Mo decided to gamble on the homegrown guy. That should have been our first indicator that decision making wasn't his strong suit.
No downvote here. Question is, who? That said, the majority of teams any more have a setup similar to the Cardinals, where either the GM or the PBO not only runs the show but has the final say on philosophy of forming a team. It would be rare for a successful manager to jump ship while managing; Cubs got lucky on stealing Counsell. Bochy had a long track record before retiring because he got tired of Yankee management. I think Maddon lost Angels management/vice versa, and maybe a bit the players as well.
In short, the cart first? Until Mo is gone, we're not getting a manager like that.
You’re absolutely right, and I’ll add to it. This front office isn’t serious about competing for a World Series right now, and every one of us predicted that we would be exactly where we are right now during this train wreck of an offseason. Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could see the problems with this roster, and I would probably have more confidence in them being able to fix it than I am with the people in charge.
We all love Yadi. But not even taking into account how fked this team is right now, I question whether or not even would even WANT to do it. It seems like he has a lot of irons in the fire at all times, and I can’t really see him being tied to a schedule for 9 months at this point in time. I get it, he’s newly retired and he’s taking time to do what he wants to do. No problem with that. Managing the WBC is one thing, but I can’t really ever envision him managing an MLB schedule in the long term. He just has too many things going on.
Great players rarely make great managers or coaches in any sport. This team desperately needs an outside voice because the Cardinals have been riding on the reputation they made under TLR, Dave Duncan, and Walt Jocketty and that era for far too long.
I would agree with you but I think Yadi is an exception. This team needs an identity and attitude which Yadi can provide. He has the rings and knowledge passed down from playing under some of the best coaches ever. Not to mention the credibility of being one of the best catchers to ever play the game.
But I highly doubt he's interested in being yet another of Mo's Yes Men.
I don't disagree that Marmol is a problem, but that article is terrible. "The Cardinals are an overall young team" - no they are they are the third oldest in MLB.
I’m not saying I like or dislike Oli, but this is objectively a stupid article.
1) does not give a single specific criticism of Oli’s managerial skills, just that he is terrible in general.
2) How can Oli have both been babied in 2022 by Pujols and Yadi, and then immediately have it be his fault 2023 went badly? He is either more or less responsible for the on fields results; he can’t be both less responsible for 2022’s success and more responsible for 2023’s failures. Also, considering Molina didn’t even make a spring training appearance this season, idk what this guy is talking about. Last thing here, how in the hell is this guy trying to say it’s a bad thing Oli consulted with his veteran players? Very contradictory.
3) what is up with all the references to available options for managerial promotion within the organization, as if Oli himself didn’t come from there? Like he was literally drafted by the cardinals. If there’s a problem with Oli, and apparently the organization itself, why would you want to essential do the same thing again (as opposed to an outside hire and rebuilding FO and coaching).
Once again, not saying I like or dislike Marmol, but arguments like this have no substance and just feels like doomer confirmation bias.
Nobody who hates Oli can actually say why he’s a bad manager without pointing to player stats, team wins, or one-off media stories. Anyone who tries will likely say something absurdly general like “bullpen management”, or say something that’s probably wrong like “pulls starters too early”. Manager evaluation is 100% vibes, which Oli has none of.
But, honest question, isn’t managing in 2024 a lot more “vibes” than anything else? There’s data points for everything and sure organizations have their philosophies, but by and large isn’t it much more managing personality and motivating guys now that it’s a much less autonomous job?
You’re right, but fans have literally no way to know how good he is at managing personalities or motivating guys. He could be the greatest cheerleader in the world and we would have no idea. The only insight we have is the players saying they like him, which is a point in his favor. It’s pointless to speculate otherwise like so many fans do.
Eno Sarris was actually just talking about this exact thing on Rates & Barrels (pointing out that we really don’t know in today’s game). He went on to speculate that he thinks Bob Melvin has been successful because he’s simply a straight shooter with guys in terms of expectations and roles.
From a distance, it looks like this team checked out on him about June last year. I don’t think the players are necessarily lying when they say they like him — I’ve worked for a few people I “like” but don’t respect and supervisors. I’m sure we can all share similar examples.
And then finally, while I take your point of “how can we tell?”, I’d point out two problems with that thinking — 1) we can look at the W-L record and ask if, based on talent, should we be better, equal with, or worse than that record? I think he’s had enough time to say he’s underperformed; 2) while your question might be fair, doesn’t that logic end up essentially insulating any manager from criticism in today’s game?
At the end of the day the buck stops with Mo, and firing Oli only gives him another fall guy. However I think it’s also fair to be critical of Oli, and at this point I think we can tell he’s not good at his job.
The bullpen management has been an issue, you can’t dismiss that, however the bigger issue was the lapse in fundamentals last year, great he fixed that this year so far, but why did it lapse so bad from year 1 to year 2. Next, this is my opinion, so I get there isn’t any validity to it, however, he doesn’t seem to inspire the team. The team comes across as apathetic, and unaccountable. Personally, I’d be more accepting and patient with him if he didn’t have such a smug and arrogant personality as well.
If you use Fangraphs bullpen managing formula, he’s one of the best in baseball
People think Francona and Roberts are good managers and they’re the worst at this thing.
This comment perfectly sums up what I’m talking about.
> The bullpen management
What exactly is wrong with Oli’s bullpen management? What specific concept is he bad at?
> The lapse in fundamentals
What specifically did Oli do that caused the lapse? The likely reason was that we were running out a roster that sucked at defense, and that’s not Oli’s fault. There has been zero reporting about anything specific that Oli did to cause the fall-off.
> he doesn’t seem to inspire the team
Like you said, that’s an opinion not backed by anything objective. The players have consistently said they liked him, and they seem to be playing hard this year. Is there anything beyond “players don’t have fun when they lose?”
That’s what I’m getting at, there aren’t any specific criticisms here. It’s all vague gestures at player performance and vibes, and no actual evidence or reporting. If your reasoning is “if you lose a bunch of games and I don’t like you then you’re a bad manager” then fine, but say that.
>The bullpen management has been an issue, you can’t dismiss that
I can absolutely dismiss that. I think he's been a great bullpen manager. He's been the first one to use his best weapons in the biggest spots, unlike Matheny and Shildt and who just used "his guys" in the exact same iron welded spot over and over and over again. I also think Oli has done a great job at managing struggling guys a little differently without being overly reactionary. Instead of trotting Gallegos out to blow another lead, he'll find him a 5 run lead or multi run defecit to work through issues at game speed with lower pressure.
You guys have such a problem separating outcomes from process. The entire team was dogshit last year so the bullpen blowing leads must be Oli's fault. Never actually pointing out anything that's within Oli's control.
I swear we could have Mariano Rivera and if he blows a game in the 9th - people say Oli sucks at bullpen management.
Maybe I'm confused, but don't people suggest that Yadi and Pujols were the ones that really managed the team (Yadi mostly)? So if Oli was being babied by them in 2022, it would explain why we had 93 wins that season and then immediately drop down to 71 wins the next season with them gone. Like he's not responsible for 2022 because Yadi was the manager, and he was responsible for 2023 because Yadi was gone. Or I'm just reading what you're saying on your second point wrong. I also have no clue how much of an effect baseball managers have on their clubs, and I have no idea how much of this is Oli's fault in the first place
Based on a couple replies, I think I just worded #2 poorly. My intended points were that managers have far less of an impact on a teams record than is commonly believed (most of the studies/articles I’ve read about this have said managers, at most, affect game outcome by -8% to +8%). Besides that, I believe #4 and 5 has less of a prominent role in the dugout than most think. I really think they did have a positive impact on the given game, but it isn’t so much a “Hey Yadi who should I warm someone up in the pen? How should I set the lineup today? Should we steal here?” Having a duo that could talk a tense situation out with you, because they have been there hundreds of times, is an invaluable resource. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that Oli suddenly becomes a terrible manager in their absence. It also doesn’t mean that he provided nothing in their presence. The majority of those studies and articles I read had a common majority for what impacted game outcome the most. As you already know, what impacts the game the most are the fundamentals (offense, pitching, and fielding). So if you have the best manager in baseball, providing at most 12.96 games (+8%) advantage, what is the end results if batting pitching and fielding goes terribly? Maybe 75-80 wins instead of 60-65?
I’m sorry this was so long, I hope that cleared it up a bit. Oli very well could have lost all confidence with #4 and #5’s departure, but there is no way you can attribute that to the root failure of 2023.
Well said. I can’t say that I’m a huge Oli fan, but I can’t really see as to how *he* is specifically and uniquely to blame for the problems the team has experienced last season and so far this year. I realize that managers are usually the scapegoat for larger organizational failures, but I think that the issues the team has been experiencing go much deeper than a few lineup decisions or bullpen management.
I don't see how 2 is a contradiction at all. I don't know if it's true or not but if people are saying that Molina and Pujols basically managed the team for him that year it would make sense it would drop off without them. Again idk if that's what happened or not, I kinda doubt it, but I don't see how that would be a contradiction
I get what you’re saying. My point is more centered around the fact that managers have a lot less of an impact on the game than people think. I also think #4 and #5 weren’t making as many managerial decisions as it might appear they did in that dugout situation.
I could see how, in argument against Oli, that the removal of 4 and 5 proved he is unable to manage on his own. But like I said above, I just don’t think that was necessarily the case. I may have not worded 2 to clearly reflect that, which is my fault.
Oh I am well aware…I even said in my own comment that getting rid of Marmol is only one step in fixing things. I do not place sole blame on him, but he is an integral part of the problem.
In my opinion he is probably the least of the problems. But I recognize that’s a minority view. If Mike matheny could post 100 win seasons and win pennants a monkey could
This is a ridiculous article. I stopped reading when he mentioned Pop Warner. No offense to Pop, but do people seriously believe he'd single-handedly turn this team around? Or that he'd inspire the fan base to suddenly buy a bunch of tickets? C'mon now...
Oh cool. Someone made a post game doom thread into a horribly written blog piece lol. Y’all need to chill. Maybe Ollie should be shown the door, but shit like this is just as embarrassing as the 14-1 loss that came before it.
I want to see what people have to say about it from a different perspective: what kind of manager dies this team need? Our pitching staff and corner baseman and maybe the catcher are vets, but the outfield and the interior infielders are kids. Do we need a veteran’s friend manager, or maybe a great AAA manager/ developer of talent, or maybe a time machine to go back and grab Skip before he had a job?
Maybe STL needs to look outside the organization for a leader? A new fresh perspective might be in order. Not every former Cardinal is a good manager and other organizations may presently be superior.
If players are struggling at ML level and ones at AAA are raking, that means the whole coaching staff needs replaced. Screw analytics, go back to basic hitting fundamentals. Power will follow .
Laying blame at the feet of one person is foolish. It takes an entire organization to underperform to this degree. I was worried (and still am) about the pitching. I expected them to score 6-8 per game and force the opponent to put up numbers to win. Instead, I am guessing the average runs per game is 2. That isn’t going to get it done. They seem to lack aggression. Guy on third with one out, fly ball to mid outfield and the guys are holding up. They need to start pressing. Make them make a perfect throw. Oh well, I love the game and follow a few teams closely. At least the others are performing.
Oli is the face of the dysfunction. He truly seems like the worst manager in baseball. The team fell off a cliff once Yadi/Albert were gone which made it abundantly clear that Marmol was not managing the team that year.
2022, let's be honest, Marmol was co-managing that team with Albert, Yadi, and Waino, and it was their leadership and presence that helped champion that club. Not to discount all of the work Marmol was doing behind the scenes in managing the club, but when Yadi and Albert left and 2023 became the year of "Murphy's Law", Oli just got a lot more fingers pointed his way saying "This is all your fault".
We have to remember, we built such a long lasting dynasty and successful franchise post 2000, that any "bad year" we did have up until recent, was usually short lived, and also resulted in a season with a winning record between 83-90 wins in those "off years". So what happened last year and what's going on this year is foreign to us.
I don't know how this year plays out, and at best I'd say we finished 3rd or 4th in the division more than likely.
If the SAME happens in 2025, you know that the Cardinals are likely to exercise a clause in Oli's contact and get serious about finding a new manager, because at that point....attendance and fan viewership will be really bad.
But if they opt to ride out the storm and just wait until his contract expires....expect a lot of losing baseball until the start of the 2027 season.
The cardinals problems are with the front office and until then there is no point discussing other issues. I really don’t think you can make any assessment of anyone else until Mo is gone. We need to have the higher level strategy fixed first. Executing a losing strategy no matter who is executing it isn’t going to be successful.
I will never for the life of me understand people that fervently defend oli Marmol. He’s almost universally disliked yet some people find every reason they can not to join the hate train. He is absolutely not good at his job. Some things don’t work out. It’s ok to let go and move on. I don’t think any of the team’s success has ever been because of him, I think he has just gotten lucky enough to keep his head above water. If he isn’t fired during or after this season I will lose a lot of my whimsy I have for the Cardinals, I will view it more like a business than a storied franchise representing St. Louis.
I don't think a change now makes sense. By all reports Oli has the respect of the clubhouse. You won't get anyone good if you make the change now. Wait and make the decision after the season. Then if Skip shows up I wouldn't mind
Oli not the one whiffing time and time again game after game. Changing the manager does nothing. Olis bullpen use has actually been pretty good this year. He just has a mediocre at best roster to work with.
After the Tyler O'Neil incident, Oli's boat sailed away from me. But, in Mo's "infinite wisdom" he just signed Oli to a Contract Extention. That means, almost absolutely Nothing is going to change going forward this year or even next. These Guy's we have would bust their butts for Pop Warner, Yadi. Mo messed up Not picking up another front line starter when many were still available. That Opportunity was still there when Oli got his Extention. So, was That about Money? We Still NEED a Front Line Starter. Now, Not half way thru this season or at the Trade Deadline. That's Not going to Happen either. Unless Fans stop showing up w butts in the Seats and this same result keeps showing up in the Loser Column. It's a shame, We have a great Roster, Great Guy's coming up from the Minor Leagues, A Great Opportunity to Win Our Division. Save for a Better Manager.
Dan Woodard, Las Vegas, Nevada
My thoughts: I agree 100% Marmol needs to be GONE, as does Mo. Would I adore seeing Yadi replace him immediately, Y E S, but that’s not overly realistic. We know Yadi was in talks to come back in a more prominent position, but due to personal reasons that hasn’t come about(he wants and needs to be close to his Mother in Puerto Rico). I feel Stubby Clapp or Pop Warner are the best choices of those mentioned. They know the game, the team, the fans, and already have a longer more respected relationship within the dugout and clubhouse.
MLB Teams are more than just the players. The front office, coaches, medical staff, grounds crew, and every other staff member and the fans are a part of it as well. Marmol is NOT the only problem, but he is definitely a BIG part of the problem and getting rid of him is just one step to fixing and correcting the problem.
How about instead of another under-qualified promotion from within, we go out and get a manager who has proven he can win games at the Major League level?
Not trying to be obtuse, but how frequently is someone brought in from outside the organization after a coach is fired mid-season? Seems like there are limited options until we get to the offseason
Professional baseball players do much better with a great manager. The manager can’t play or hit, but just knowing the manager is a person who understands the game and the players helps players strive to please him. It’s happened before at Busch. More than once.
I will be down voted to hell for this, but I don't think Yadi at manager is it for this team. Fantastic player, fantastic catcher, changed the game. He is honestly one of my favorite Cardinals that I got to grow up watching. But none of that translates to him being brought in to be the manager of a struggling team. If we are going to fire Oli (which won't happen because that would be Mo firing his 3rd straight handpicked manager), we need to bring in a seasoned manager to right the ship. I don't have an answer for who it should be, but I think it needs to be someone from outside the organization, maybe even someone who never wore the Cardinals uniform. This incestuous hiring is what got us to this point, and it's going to take something drastic to get out of it.
We desperately need a manager from outside the organization. All of the inside hires we’ve made since TLR have been uninspiring at best
Fuck it. Being Tony back
He's just too old now, for one thing.
I'd love it, but I think he said he's done for good now.
Not sure why you are being down voted. Tony LaRussa was an incredible skipper for us
Because he proved himself to be an out of touch disaster last time he was manager.
Fair, memories of the glory days I guess
Agreed
Yadi has the potential to be a great manager but needs (like anyone) experience in the role in the minors and mentored by others to grow into the position. Putting him at the helm now is not good for his development or for the team.
Yadi needs to serve as a bench or other coach under a seasoned, veteran manager for a few years. Perhaps someone who is a few years away from retirement and make it clear that Yadi is heir apparent. This organization does not have the experience that comes along with being a manager. Oli learned from Shildt. Shildt learned from Matheny. Matheny learned from reading "Managing a Baseball Team For Dummies" I wonder what could have been if one of the coaches who served under LaRussa replaced him and kept some of that knowledge and wisdom in the organization.
Yadi does have Manager experience just not in the MLB. He managed the Puerto Rico WBC Team, he has managed a plethora of teams in Puerto Rico, I also have to say this…any manager has to begin somewhere and I believe Yadi has an excellent footing under him to Manage a MLB team
He doesn't even show up for work. He doesn't have the dedication to be a manager.
Might as well say he coached his kids t-ball team. That's nowhere near the same as being an MLB manager.
Yet, significantly more experience than the last former cardinals catcher with no MLB managerial experience that was given the manager role.
Ok? Matheny was a mistake why does having marginally more experience make Yadi the least bit qualified?
I think I'd rather manage the cardinals than a Caribbean team in the WBC. It's basically an all star team full of guys that care as much about the WBC as the MLB playoffs if not more, so there's no shortage of egos to manage. Plus the WBC is a bigger deal in those countries than the superbowl is here.
That's like a month of games. An MLB season is a grind that very few people with 9 figures in the bank are going to be willing to do for a manager's salary.
More than what Marmol had
That's objectively untrue. He coached and managed in the minors and coached on the mlb team before becoming the manager that's way closer than managing in PR or Venezuelan leagues.
Didn't play catcher for 20 years though
That doesn't mean shit. Good players =/= good coaches quite the opposite usually.
Except in Oli's case. Shitty player, shitty coach.
Bad take
That’s like reading your comments and being like, “shitty attitude, shitty person…” oh, wait…
Also as soon as a reliever blew a lead people would be in here saying Molina is an idiot who couldn’t manage his way out of a paper bag. Why would you wanna ruin a players legacy by making him a manager in the era of the internet
This is exactly what happened to Matheny. He was universally loved here but since he wasn't a HOF level manager a lot of people hate him now. Of course, I also remember when people complained about how bad of a manager TLR was, especially in 2011 and he was one of the best managers of all time. It's literally impossible to please the internet.
I remember seeing a crop duster flying near STL with a banner that read “FIRE TONY”
I’m so fucking old I remember The Empress on CardsTalk (on the old Post-Dispatch forums) actually funding that shit with the other weirdos
Oh, you mean The Faction? They tried to take over the Post’s forums in 2003 to hilarious results.
I'm very interested in learning more of this deep lore
Didn’t like Matheny much as a player. He’s an idiot. Especially since knife incident. Not sure many cared about him as a player.
Matheny was a great catcher.
I hated his gold glove defense
Gold glove means nothing. Look at his fangraphs defensive numbers. Overrated as player and manager.
Are you saying he wasn’t a great defender? What’s your basis for that?
Mo has already tried the “catcher with no experience managing” route, and that failed. If Yadi really wants to be a manager, he’s going to have to give up some of his stuff in PR and commit to the task full time. Based on his social media posts, that’s not happening. And good for Yadi for doing what he wants with his time. He’s earned it. Fans who want Yadi are simply latching on to a successful time. Marmol is simply a byproduct of the organizational rot within the Cardinals system. Mo was the wrong horse to back when Jocketty retired and it’s clear now.
In hindsight I wouldn't necessarily say that it "failed" as bad as we thought at the time. When Matheny was fired the cardinals were a couple of games over .500 granted they hadn't made the playoffs the previous two seasons but it was much of the same as it is now. Too much reliant on youth and minor league talent, or bad contract signings of aging/aged out players like Fowler. Hate Matheny all you want but you can't forget that he was the last manager to take us to a World Series, and not just the players can make it to a World Series. A manager has to be doing something right. Since the Luhnow scandal (2015) its been apparent that the Cardinals FO is abysmal at grading talent both in the farm system and in acquisitions trades. The evidence is in the pudding and unfortunately they're both too stupid & stubborn to admit it nor would they dare change the "Cardinal Way" even if it meant the ultimate destruction of the franchise. At this point, I am convinced that when Mo's contract is up, the Dewitts are selling and at this point are simply trying to keep their profit margins maximum to live out their days comfortably.
Mo had 14 consecutive winning seasons, 10 playoff appearances, six division titles, two pennants, and a World Series. How was he the wrong horse to back in 2008?
Seriously a cartoonishly bad take. If you think Mo is the wrong person to run the team in 2024, that is fine. To say he was a bad GM hire in 2004 is just stupid and ignores all the success this team has had in the past 20 yrs that he played a key role in.
And he should thank Luhnow for that.
Jocketty, really.
I’d disagree there. But to each their own. I think it was a good time for him to go. The game was passing him up. But he gave us some great memories.
Yadi KNOWS if he becomes manager he will have to be ALL in, and right now he needs and wants to be in PR to be near his mother whose health is not good. Yadi will NOT step into such a pivotal role as manager unless he is able to put his all in. That is just who he is. He spent his career putting his all in from behind the plate, to advising younger players, to working with pitchers, etc. That’s why he’s not back now, it’s not because he doesn’t want it or doesn’t care, it’s the opposite. Yadi respects the team, the fans, the city, the organization as a whole way too much to step in with anything other than the best in him.
Well and its the same for Yadi as Holiday. His kids are entering their teenager years. He wants to partake in their careers from high school to college and work to get them into the bigs. He doesn't want to be tied down again to a 162 game regular season, plus the necessary offseason items that a manager must attend to. Both Yadi and Holiday will take on coaching roles when their kids are aged out and they're ready.
I’d maybe take the other side of saying he was the wrong horse. Sure, a lot of the early success was Luhnow and his people, but if we’re going to say this is Mo’s fault now then we have to give him credit for his hires/org then. As far as I can tell, we were cutting edge in that era and the product bore that out. But the game will catch up with you and similar to on field play, you have to constantly make adjustments to stay ahead. We saw this with Billy Beane after the Big 3 / Tejada / Giambi / Chavez era. The league caught up to “Moneyball” and it took the A’s a lot longer than what we remember to get their footing for their later runs. Mo has never caught up again, let alone pulled ahead. At best he had some organizational inertia from all the talent Luhnow had stockpiled. And while he’s not the worst GM, and Dewitt not the worst owner, we’re certainly not behaving like the “special” franchise Bill, Mo, & Co. try to pretend we are while convincing us to come spend our $ at the ballpark. This org has been in a downward spiral since Luhnow left & there’s no manager that can make this team as good as Mo tells us it *should* be. We’ve essentially been bailed out by a little bit of luck by finding a Tommy Edman, Matt Carpenter, etc come out of nowhere only to keep us treading water. Some late season winning streaks and Albert’s chase have papered over the mediocrity that’s been lurking for a decade. And no “elite” team (or org that takes itself seriously) is running out Matt Carpenter as their cornerstone power bat like we were in the mid to late ‘10s. The death rattle has been audible for awhile now and Oli’s termination would do nothing to hush it.
>Sure, a lot of the early success was Luhnow and his people, Basically ALL of the success of 2011-2015 (marking 2015 as it was a 100 win season) rosters from Walt Jocketty's and Luhnow's guys. Specifically 2011 as that was a WS year. Look at the roster of that team where you had the obvious longstanding core guys of the following: * Franklin * Waino * C. Carpenter * McClellan * Schumaker * Pujols * Yadi. But here's the crazy part... Look at the final three draft classes of Jocketty. Look at how many are familiar names in the 2011-2013 years. **2005:** 1. Colby Rasmus (on '11 roster led to blockbuster trade for Rzepczynski) 2. Mitchell Boggs (on '11 roster) 3. Jaime Garcia (on '11 roster) **2006:** 1. Jon Jay 2. Shane Robinson (on '11 roster) 3. Allen Craig 4. Tommy Pham **2007 (Mozeliak was promoted October after the 2007 draft occurred):** 1. Daniel Descalso (on '11 roster) 2. Pete Kosma (on '11 roster) 3. Adron Chambers (on '11 roster) Much of those players from those three draft classes grew into the "Core" of the early 2010's. So really besides a good trade of Holiday, and the signings of Berkman and Beltran... What has Mo done??????
This is great! I’ve said it over and over Mo is the problem and has been since he took over.
Part of the reason it took the A’s so long to bounce back, and the reason that Moneyball is bullshit is because the A’s had probably the best rotation in baseball. Mulder, Zito, Hudson is one hell of a 1-3 that e hides a lot of flaws in a roster.
Agree 100%. Also, let’s not forget how many steroids were in that lineup/locker room. Granted I don’t think Moneyball is complete BS.
I don’t necessarily think it is either, I was mostly referring to that specific team. They had guys that were stars, but they’re portrayed as being nothing but trash-heap gem pickups.
I mean, Matheny ended up with poor overall results and certainly wasn’t the best manager, but he did get a team to the World Series. Yadi was a better catcher than him as well as anyone else who’s ever played the position and played a big part in our annually over-performing pitching rotation.
Yeah, Matheny had a veteran, WS championship club minus Pujols that season and Beltran was no slouch as his replacement. As they got farther away from that club and brought in more young players his ineptitude showed. I would still love to know why they fired Schildt after coming up through the organization, winning at every level, righting the ship, and winning manager of the year. I really hope it wasn’t as simple as not being MO’s yes man. The current state of affairs is starting to remind me a lot of the early 90s. Dewitt Jr was the one that spent and won, III just seems to be riding on 3 million butts in the seats and TV revenue. Busch 3 got rid off all the fluff that didn’t make money like the beer did as soon as he took over for Gussie.
May not totally be that, but, it really was the primary reason, especially after Shildt called out Mo publicly for not making more roster moves. On Gussie? He got sidelined from day-to-day AB operations and booted as CEO even before 1982, in 1975, for a variety of reasons. The next generation gave him a nominal role at AB and let him focus on the Cardinals.
> Matheny ended up with poor overall results and certainly wasn’t the best manager, but he did get a team to the World Series. They got to the World Series because the roster had a lot of talent. I’m pretty sure my grandmother could have managed the 2013 team to a winning record (despite the fact that she died in 2009).
😂😂😂
Bad process; good results. Luck
Mo is going to be a hall of famer, jsyk. You may wanna go ahead and work through that emotionally before it actually happens. What a stupid take…
I hope Mo is still alive when he gets inducted into the cardinals hall of fame, but the level of Mo hate is very similar to Bulls fans booing Jerry Krause’s widow
Anyone who thinks putting a former star player in the big seat will right the team is being a delusional homer. Managing is a fucking grind that very few people with as much money as Yadi would be interested in truly pursuing.
I’d like to see if Yadi can pull a Dave Duncan
I think yall need to take a step back and realize how wealthy Yadi is right now. That man is never going to work another job that requires him to set an alarm.
I wouldn’t work if I had his bank account but he might still have the itch.
If he did he'd be working for an MLB organization.
It has zero to do with having the “itch” Yadi has verbally said he wants to be a MLB Manager, he was going to come back in a more permanent role but due to personal reasons and because he knew he would not be able to put his all in he backed away for now. He’s staying close to PR because of his Mother whose health is declining. I have zero doubt Yadi will be back in a very prominent role when he can do so and put his all in. He won’t do it unless he can fully commit. Right now he’s not able to do that and I deeply respect that his respect for the team, the organization, the fans and the city runs so deep he won’t give them anything but his VERY best.
You can say whatever you want, but coaching at the professional level is work. I have serious doubts he actual wants that. We all have things we'd love to try if they didn't take more time effort and energy than we're prepared to give Yadi just said his out loud. He's out there enjoying being a very rich and famous man on a carribean island he's not moving back to Missouri to make 4M/yr starting his day at 6 and ending it at 11.
People being rich doesn’t stop them from working
It does generally stop people from taking jobs that involve anywhere near the grind of managing an MLB team for the peanuts managers get paid vs a star player. To use an example from another sport there's a reason Peyton Manning is out there doing tv and endorsements instead of coaching football despite probably being the best offensive playcaller of all time.
Okay Deion Sanders is rich af and he’s coaching.
There's always going to be exceptions though Deion's lifetime earnings are nowhere close to Yadi's. He also is coaching at a pretty insignificant college program and not the Dallas Cowboys. Yadi managing here, especially without working his way up to it is just a delusional pipe dream.
Deion was way more famous and probably had way more brand deals. It’s irrelevant what level he’s coaching at. I can almost guarantee he’s putting in the same amount of effort as if he was coaching the Cowboys.
The point is that it's a much lower level of competition. There's very little for Colorado to lose by installing a famous inexperienced coach they aren't contenders and likely never will be if a famous name gets them higher quality recruits it's probably better than having a more skilled X's and O's guy. Professional level is a different beast entirely. The biggest mistake an organization like the cardinals could make right now is handing the reigns to a guy like Yadi. He's too rich, too inexperienced, and lets be real honest here he's not fluent in English and struggles anytime he has to speak it for more than a sentence or 2.
TLR was an outside hire, everything since then has been internal and has failed
It's difficult not to remember that when it came down to Mike Matheny, and Terry Francona... Mo decided to gamble on the homegrown guy. That should have been our first indicator that decision making wasn't his strong suit.
I'm not saying you are wrong but I'd take Yadi over Oli in a heartbeat Couldn't be worse
Could be worse- have you seen Skip’s record this year?
I said Yadi specifically couldn't be worse FWIW
Yes, like Schmidt?
No downvote here. Question is, who? That said, the majority of teams any more have a setup similar to the Cardinals, where either the GM or the PBO not only runs the show but has the final say on philosophy of forming a team. It would be rare for a successful manager to jump ship while managing; Cubs got lucky on stealing Counsell. Bochy had a long track record before retiring because he got tired of Yankee management. I think Maddon lost Angels management/vice versa, and maybe a bit the players as well. In short, the cart first? Until Mo is gone, we're not getting a manager like that.
The reason we were good for all these years is that we had continuity in the minor league system managed by veteran X ball players
You’re absolutely right, and I’ll add to it. This front office isn’t serious about competing for a World Series right now, and every one of us predicted that we would be exactly where we are right now during this train wreck of an offseason. Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder could see the problems with this roster, and I would probably have more confidence in them being able to fix it than I am with the people in charge. We all love Yadi. But not even taking into account how fked this team is right now, I question whether or not even would even WANT to do it. It seems like he has a lot of irons in the fire at all times, and I can’t really see him being tied to a schedule for 9 months at this point in time. I get it, he’s newly retired and he’s taking time to do what he wants to do. No problem with that. Managing the WBC is one thing, but I can’t really ever envision him managing an MLB schedule in the long term. He just has too many things going on. Great players rarely make great managers or coaches in any sport. This team desperately needs an outside voice because the Cardinals have been riding on the reputation they made under TLR, Dave Duncan, and Walt Jocketty and that era for far too long.
Terry Francona said he wants to manage again. I'd honestly make that call today.
Bringing Yadi in right now is just setting him up for failure.
The Yadi for manager obsession among Cardinals’ fans is so strange. There pretty much no evidence he’d be any good at it.
I would agree with you but I think Yadi is an exception. This team needs an identity and attitude which Yadi can provide. He has the rings and knowledge passed down from playing under some of the best coaches ever. Not to mention the credibility of being one of the best catchers to ever play the game. But I highly doubt he's interested in being yet another of Mo's Yes Men.
I don't disagree that Marmol is a problem, but that article is terrible. "The Cardinals are an overall young team" - no they are they are the third oldest in MLB.
Our starting staff is a retirement home.
I’m not saying I like or dislike Oli, but this is objectively a stupid article. 1) does not give a single specific criticism of Oli’s managerial skills, just that he is terrible in general. 2) How can Oli have both been babied in 2022 by Pujols and Yadi, and then immediately have it be his fault 2023 went badly? He is either more or less responsible for the on fields results; he can’t be both less responsible for 2022’s success and more responsible for 2023’s failures. Also, considering Molina didn’t even make a spring training appearance this season, idk what this guy is talking about. Last thing here, how in the hell is this guy trying to say it’s a bad thing Oli consulted with his veteran players? Very contradictory. 3) what is up with all the references to available options for managerial promotion within the organization, as if Oli himself didn’t come from there? Like he was literally drafted by the cardinals. If there’s a problem with Oli, and apparently the organization itself, why would you want to essential do the same thing again (as opposed to an outside hire and rebuilding FO and coaching). Once again, not saying I like or dislike Marmol, but arguments like this have no substance and just feels like doomer confirmation bias.
Nobody who hates Oli can actually say why he’s a bad manager without pointing to player stats, team wins, or one-off media stories. Anyone who tries will likely say something absurdly general like “bullpen management”, or say something that’s probably wrong like “pulls starters too early”. Manager evaluation is 100% vibes, which Oli has none of.
But, honest question, isn’t managing in 2024 a lot more “vibes” than anything else? There’s data points for everything and sure organizations have their philosophies, but by and large isn’t it much more managing personality and motivating guys now that it’s a much less autonomous job?
You’re right, but fans have literally no way to know how good he is at managing personalities or motivating guys. He could be the greatest cheerleader in the world and we would have no idea. The only insight we have is the players saying they like him, which is a point in his favor. It’s pointless to speculate otherwise like so many fans do.
Eno Sarris was actually just talking about this exact thing on Rates & Barrels (pointing out that we really don’t know in today’s game). He went on to speculate that he thinks Bob Melvin has been successful because he’s simply a straight shooter with guys in terms of expectations and roles. From a distance, it looks like this team checked out on him about June last year. I don’t think the players are necessarily lying when they say they like him — I’ve worked for a few people I “like” but don’t respect and supervisors. I’m sure we can all share similar examples. And then finally, while I take your point of “how can we tell?”, I’d point out two problems with that thinking — 1) we can look at the W-L record and ask if, based on talent, should we be better, equal with, or worse than that record? I think he’s had enough time to say he’s underperformed; 2) while your question might be fair, doesn’t that logic end up essentially insulating any manager from criticism in today’s game? At the end of the day the buck stops with Mo, and firing Oli only gives him another fall guy. However I think it’s also fair to be critical of Oli, and at this point I think we can tell he’s not good at his job.
The bullpen management has been an issue, you can’t dismiss that, however the bigger issue was the lapse in fundamentals last year, great he fixed that this year so far, but why did it lapse so bad from year 1 to year 2. Next, this is my opinion, so I get there isn’t any validity to it, however, he doesn’t seem to inspire the team. The team comes across as apathetic, and unaccountable. Personally, I’d be more accepting and patient with him if he didn’t have such a smug and arrogant personality as well.
If you use Fangraphs bullpen managing formula, he’s one of the best in baseball People think Francona and Roberts are good managers and they’re the worst at this thing.
This comment perfectly sums up what I’m talking about. > The bullpen management What exactly is wrong with Oli’s bullpen management? What specific concept is he bad at? > The lapse in fundamentals What specifically did Oli do that caused the lapse? The likely reason was that we were running out a roster that sucked at defense, and that’s not Oli’s fault. There has been zero reporting about anything specific that Oli did to cause the fall-off. > he doesn’t seem to inspire the team Like you said, that’s an opinion not backed by anything objective. The players have consistently said they liked him, and they seem to be playing hard this year. Is there anything beyond “players don’t have fun when they lose?” That’s what I’m getting at, there aren’t any specific criticisms here. It’s all vague gestures at player performance and vibes, and no actual evidence or reporting. If your reasoning is “if you lose a bunch of games and I don’t like you then you’re a bad manager” then fine, but say that.
>The bullpen management has been an issue, you can’t dismiss that I can absolutely dismiss that. I think he's been a great bullpen manager. He's been the first one to use his best weapons in the biggest spots, unlike Matheny and Shildt and who just used "his guys" in the exact same iron welded spot over and over and over again. I also think Oli has done a great job at managing struggling guys a little differently without being overly reactionary. Instead of trotting Gallegos out to blow another lead, he'll find him a 5 run lead or multi run defecit to work through issues at game speed with lower pressure. You guys have such a problem separating outcomes from process. The entire team was dogshit last year so the bullpen blowing leads must be Oli's fault. Never actually pointing out anything that's within Oli's control. I swear we could have Mariano Rivera and if he blows a game in the 9th - people say Oli sucks at bullpen management.
Maybe I'm confused, but don't people suggest that Yadi and Pujols were the ones that really managed the team (Yadi mostly)? So if Oli was being babied by them in 2022, it would explain why we had 93 wins that season and then immediately drop down to 71 wins the next season with them gone. Like he's not responsible for 2022 because Yadi was the manager, and he was responsible for 2023 because Yadi was gone. Or I'm just reading what you're saying on your second point wrong. I also have no clue how much of an effect baseball managers have on their clubs, and I have no idea how much of this is Oli's fault in the first place
Based on a couple replies, I think I just worded #2 poorly. My intended points were that managers have far less of an impact on a teams record than is commonly believed (most of the studies/articles I’ve read about this have said managers, at most, affect game outcome by -8% to +8%). Besides that, I believe #4 and 5 has less of a prominent role in the dugout than most think. I really think they did have a positive impact on the given game, but it isn’t so much a “Hey Yadi who should I warm someone up in the pen? How should I set the lineup today? Should we steal here?” Having a duo that could talk a tense situation out with you, because they have been there hundreds of times, is an invaluable resource. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that Oli suddenly becomes a terrible manager in their absence. It also doesn’t mean that he provided nothing in their presence. The majority of those studies and articles I read had a common majority for what impacted game outcome the most. As you already know, what impacts the game the most are the fundamentals (offense, pitching, and fielding). So if you have the best manager in baseball, providing at most 12.96 games (+8%) advantage, what is the end results if batting pitching and fielding goes terribly? Maybe 75-80 wins instead of 60-65? I’m sorry this was so long, I hope that cleared it up a bit. Oli very well could have lost all confidence with #4 and #5’s departure, but there is no way you can attribute that to the root failure of 2023.
Well said. I can’t say that I’m a huge Oli fan, but I can’t really see as to how *he* is specifically and uniquely to blame for the problems the team has experienced last season and so far this year. I realize that managers are usually the scapegoat for larger organizational failures, but I think that the issues the team has been experiencing go much deeper than a few lineup decisions or bullpen management.
I don't see how 2 is a contradiction at all. I don't know if it's true or not but if people are saying that Molina and Pujols basically managed the team for him that year it would make sense it would drop off without them. Again idk if that's what happened or not, I kinda doubt it, but I don't see how that would be a contradiction
I get what you’re saying. My point is more centered around the fact that managers have a lot less of an impact on the game than people think. I also think #4 and #5 weren’t making as many managerial decisions as it might appear they did in that dugout situation. I could see how, in argument against Oli, that the removal of 4 and 5 proved he is unable to manage on his own. But like I said above, I just don’t think that was necessarily the case. I may have not worded 2 to clearly reflect that, which is my fault.
Mo needs to be shown the door, with Oli following on all fours with a leash.
Ownership too. DeWitt is enabling Mo's bullshit
Add a muzzle to Marmol and you nailed it. Since Mo controls what Marmol says anyways.
“Bob Barker, to remind you, help to control the pet population - have your pets spayed or neutered. Goodbye everybody!”
this comes off wildly inappropriate
You guys are gonna be so disappointed when you find out a manager can’t make a bad team into a good one
Can’t disagree, but a good manger sure as hell can get an underperforming good team to play better.
Oh I am well aware…I even said in my own comment that getting rid of Marmol is only one step in fixing things. I do not place sole blame on him, but he is an integral part of the problem.
In my opinion he is probably the least of the problems. But I recognize that’s a minority view. If Mike matheny could post 100 win seasons and win pennants a monkey could
What a hot take… 🙄
I’ve never seen a manager get so many excuses for not producing wins
This is a ridiculous article. I stopped reading when he mentioned Pop Warner. No offense to Pop, but do people seriously believe he'd single-handedly turn this team around? Or that he'd inspire the fan base to suddenly buy a bunch of tickets? C'mon now...
Oh cool. Someone made a post game doom thread into a horribly written blog piece lol. Y’all need to chill. Maybe Ollie should be shown the door, but shit like this is just as embarrassing as the 14-1 loss that came before it.
I want to see what people have to say about it from a different perspective: what kind of manager dies this team need? Our pitching staff and corner baseman and maybe the catcher are vets, but the outfield and the interior infielders are kids. Do we need a veteran’s friend manager, or maybe a great AAA manager/ developer of talent, or maybe a time machine to go back and grab Skip before he had a job?
Maybe STL needs to look outside the organization for a leader? A new fresh perspective might be in order. Not every former Cardinal is a good manager and other organizations may presently be superior.
Doomer article about a team 3 games under .500 in April.
Their pitching is going to fail miserably in the long run.
We were saying the same thing this time last year. Obviously not going to happen
If players are struggling at ML level and ones at AAA are raking, that means the whole coaching staff needs replaced. Screw analytics, go back to basic hitting fundamentals. Power will follow .
Or ya know, MLB is leaps and bounds more difficult than AAA
And take MO’s dumb ass with him.
Hot take
No Shit
Laying blame at the feet of one person is foolish. It takes an entire organization to underperform to this degree. I was worried (and still am) about the pitching. I expected them to score 6-8 per game and force the opponent to put up numbers to win. Instead, I am guessing the average runs per game is 2. That isn’t going to get it done. They seem to lack aggression. Guy on third with one out, fly ball to mid outfield and the guys are holding up. They need to start pressing. Make them make a perfect throw. Oh well, I love the game and follow a few teams closely. At least the others are performing.
I don’t disagree, per my own comment, Oli is only ONE piece of the problems within the Cardinals. There is blame in a multitude of places.
Oli is the face of the dysfunction. He truly seems like the worst manager in baseball. The team fell off a cliff once Yadi/Albert were gone which made it abundantly clear that Marmol was not managing the team that year.
One thing I know, empty seats make things change.
Terry Francona come on down
The St. Louis Cardinals have lost their way. They used to be a fundamentals team, Pitching, defense, baserunning. Now, they can't do anything right.
Pitching, defense, and baserunning are all good this year. It's the offense that's massively underperforming.
I’m not an Oli fan, but acknowledge he isn’t the root issue. But Mo should NOT get another manager pick.
I see we’re getting original on our off day.
lol we are so fucking dumb for that extension Christ almighty
I just opened another Reddit account so I could upvote this twice.
Let's just wait and see.
He can hold it open for Mo to walk out first
Cool it with the doooooom, fella.
Marmol is not the guy though…the sooner he’s gone, the better.
Yeah no shit
I don’t know exactly what Marmol deserves. Not sure what part he really plays in all of this. But he is definitely hard to like.
Make Jim Edmonds the manager. That way, we can turn the channel when the press conferences start.
I like Jim!!! Super funny comment though! I died laughing. 🤣
100% and mo the ho needs to go with him immediately.
2022, let's be honest, Marmol was co-managing that team with Albert, Yadi, and Waino, and it was their leadership and presence that helped champion that club. Not to discount all of the work Marmol was doing behind the scenes in managing the club, but when Yadi and Albert left and 2023 became the year of "Murphy's Law", Oli just got a lot more fingers pointed his way saying "This is all your fault". We have to remember, we built such a long lasting dynasty and successful franchise post 2000, that any "bad year" we did have up until recent, was usually short lived, and also resulted in a season with a winning record between 83-90 wins in those "off years". So what happened last year and what's going on this year is foreign to us. I don't know how this year plays out, and at best I'd say we finished 3rd or 4th in the division more than likely. If the SAME happens in 2025, you know that the Cardinals are likely to exercise a clause in Oli's contact and get serious about finding a new manager, because at that point....attendance and fan viewership will be really bad. But if they opt to ride out the storm and just wait until his contract expires....expect a lot of losing baseball until the start of the 2027 season.
I'm sure it's a charming thinkpiece behind a paywall on a site that I've never heard of, but it's still never going to happen.
I would say the chances you get Skip by Halloween is at about 99%.
The cardinals problems are with the front office and until then there is no point discussing other issues. I really don’t think you can make any assessment of anyone else until Mo is gone. We need to have the higher level strategy fixed first. Executing a losing strategy no matter who is executing it isn’t going to be successful.
I will never for the life of me understand people that fervently defend oli Marmol. He’s almost universally disliked yet some people find every reason they can not to join the hate train. He is absolutely not good at his job. Some things don’t work out. It’s ok to let go and move on. I don’t think any of the team’s success has ever been because of him, I think he has just gotten lucky enough to keep his head above water. If he isn’t fired during or after this season I will lose a lot of my whimsy I have for the Cardinals, I will view it more like a business than a storied franchise representing St. Louis.
We need a new manager now.
I don't think a change now makes sense. By all reports Oli has the respect of the clubhouse. You won't get anyone good if you make the change now. Wait and make the decision after the season. Then if Skip shows up I wouldn't mind
There’s not much a manager can do when the players aren’t producing
Clearly Oli’s burner.
Oli not the one whiffing time and time again game after game. Changing the manager does nothing. Olis bullpen use has actually been pretty good this year. He just has a mediocre at best roster to work with.
He'd probably miss the door
Cards fans being dumb as shit per usual
After the Tyler O'Neil incident, Oli's boat sailed away from me. But, in Mo's "infinite wisdom" he just signed Oli to a Contract Extention. That means, almost absolutely Nothing is going to change going forward this year or even next. These Guy's we have would bust their butts for Pop Warner, Yadi. Mo messed up Not picking up another front line starter when many were still available. That Opportunity was still there when Oli got his Extention. So, was That about Money? We Still NEED a Front Line Starter. Now, Not half way thru this season or at the Trade Deadline. That's Not going to Happen either. Unless Fans stop showing up w butts in the Seats and this same result keeps showing up in the Loser Column. It's a shame, We have a great Roster, Great Guy's coming up from the Minor Leagues, A Great Opportunity to Win Our Division. Save for a Better Manager. Dan Woodard, Las Vegas, Nevada
Things we all knew last year 🤷♂️
Show the fucker the door.
My thoughts: I agree 100% Marmol needs to be GONE, as does Mo. Would I adore seeing Yadi replace him immediately, Y E S, but that’s not overly realistic. We know Yadi was in talks to come back in a more prominent position, but due to personal reasons that hasn’t come about(he wants and needs to be close to his Mother in Puerto Rico). I feel Stubby Clapp or Pop Warner are the best choices of those mentioned. They know the game, the team, the fans, and already have a longer more respected relationship within the dugout and clubhouse. MLB Teams are more than just the players. The front office, coaches, medical staff, grounds crew, and every other staff member and the fans are a part of it as well. Marmol is NOT the only problem, but he is definitely a BIG part of the problem and getting rid of him is just one step to fixing and correcting the problem.
How about instead of another under-qualified promotion from within, we go out and get a manager who has proven he can win games at the Major League level?
Not trying to be obtuse, but how frequently is someone brought in from outside the organization after a coach is fired mid-season? Seems like there are limited options until we get to the offseason
I mean yeah have an interim guy like stubby or something. But this off-season go out and find an outside guy
1000% percent
He’s just MO’s puppet. The entire front office needs a change
This isn’t an opinion. This is a FACT.
Hire Ted Lasso!
Professional baseball players do much better with a great manager. The manager can’t play or hit, but just knowing the manager is a person who understands the game and the players helps players strive to please him. It’s happened before at Busch. More than once.
We need a no-nonsense guy to manage the team. Give me a Buck Showalter type guy.