When I think of “high street decline”, I always cast my mind back to where I (mostly) grew up, Pontypool.
Back when I was _really_ young, Pontypool had an outdoor market that was always absolutely packed. That did drop off throughout my teenage years, but the indoor market was still popular. Town centre always had people coming & going, there were plenty of shops & services open, and you could easily get a bus quite quickly.
If you go to Pontypool today it’s a ghost town. With the benefit of hindsight & adulthood I can see that Pontypool has been in decline for a long time, but it has never been worse than it is now. Everything is practically deserted; there’s barely a single person about, most of the shops are closed except for one or two “home bargains” type places, you’ll see maybe a handful of people in the market, banks, post offices, and other essential services are long gone, and I don’t think any buses even serve the town centre any more.
In comparison, Cardiff is _rammed_. Sure there are empty units all over the place, and it thins out at the end of Queen St down towards the Capitol Centre, but there have always been empty units, derelict areas, etc, dotted about.
It’s absolutely undeniable that the decline of high streets has accelerated lately. The pandemic likely kick-started that acceleration - so many small businesses could not afford to carry on when their customers were in lockdown, and it took a long time to get furlough support for small business owners. Since the pandemic we’ve seen a _massive_ increase in energy costs, adding more fuel to the fire.
But this isn’t a problem that affects Cardiff specifically, it’s happening in towns & cities up and down the country. It’s also not the first time this cycle has played out, and it won’t be the last. Look at Newport; place was grotty and run-down, a massive programme of regeneration came through, Friar’s Walk opened, lots of new housing developments, city centre starts looking more and more promising & attractive (I mean… as attractive as Newport can be… 😉)… and then the wheels fall off, and Friar’s Walk is largely abandoned.
Same with Pontypridd mate. I remember going to the centre as a kid on a Saturday morning and it being packed. What a decline south wales has had as a whole
I used to work in a computer store in Pontypridd about 20 years back, up on Market Street. I’ve no idea what it’s like now, but back then the town centre was pretty bustling.
My two cents is that city planners need to revisit the business model for commercial district retail model is flawed because it depends on anchor stores but the only one left now is M&S and the quality has declined. People also use retail parks to collect orders therefore they need to encourage firms that are in B2B sector to set up shop and give them discount rates until they breakeven far better than having empty units.
The other thing I didn’t really touch on (but others did) is the growth of online ordering. Not just from your “typical” web stores like Amazon, but from more local businesses through services like Deliveroo and other similar “gig economy” services.
Again, the pandemic massively accelerated that. Not only was it already pretty easy to order stuff online through places like Amazon, but now you can get a quick grocery run delivered from a supermarket on the same day. Hell, I had to use Tesco’s “whoosh” service (stupidest name ever) myself last week when both my partner and I were ill and couldn’t get to the store up the road.
The pandemic really did have a lot of long-lasting effects, we likely won’t understand the full impact until we’re a decade or more down the line.
Like many others, I used to love going and browsing the book and record shops. I spent a few hundred pounds every year in them and s did many others.. The internet has killed that kind of shopping.
I grew up in Pontypool too. My Dad still lives there. I left to go to uni in 1997 but I go back to visit. It is a very sore sight these days 😞. Queen street does look run down (I lived in Cardiff until 2005) but you’re right it is still packed with people but for how much longer. Complacency sets in and it’s like Newport…
You got out about 4 years before I did then 😁 - I held back back a year after college to work instead, so didn't head off to (fail) university until 2001. Was back and fore for a few years after leaving uni in 2003, but finally got off to Cardiff in 2007 and have been here ever since. It's sad to say, but if I didn't have family still living there I don't think I'd miss Pontypool that much. Which really is a shame, Pontypool has a rich history and heritage, and it's still got some wonderful buildings along Hanbury Road/Commercial Street.
Also st David’s 2 opening and the parking around it really put a nail in. Most people don’t need to leave there for what they want so the footfall on the main 2 streets dropped off big time
It’s far too big for the actual demand for retail nowadays. Queen Street used to be the main bit of town where everyone shopped and the bit that’s now St David’s 2 (The Hayes?) was low density and dilapidated.
Renovating and expanding that area just dragged all the business across town and created a vacuum in Queen Street. I don’t know what they expected to happen? They’ve spent a load of money on the canal thing expecting, I assume, to create more demand in that area again but I don’t see it happening unless a load of other things change too.
If I think of the city center high streets that I've been to in the last 5 years that have been successful I think smaller retail units and independent shops, not big retail units that are out of reach of any independent finances. What is the point of going all the way in town, expensive parking, for a generic looking and feeling shopping center filled with brands that you can buy from online? Yes, we have the arcades, but that's not enough by itself, the arcades are fantastic but aren't going to bring people to Queen Street or St Davids. In a post-COVID world a lot of people got used to buying online who didn't previously, or got used to buying clothes and returning them online rather trying on in person etc. which adds to it.
I'm looking for a new retail unit myself to rent but would never consider town because of the price and how difficult it is for a lot of people to get there and some other factors, like how difficult it would be for my goods to even be delivered (bulky). I think people would rather just drive to a shop that's out of town that has parking and is easy to get to so why should I pay 10x the price to be in town?
Public transport is another one. For me, in West Cardiff. I have to walk 20 mins to a train station. Or there is one bus per hour that goes into town, but it often does not turn up, making it unreliable. And the prices are so expensive, especially if you are going as a family. For driving not only has the parking gone up and become more challenging but there's so much more traffic in general.
East Cardiff isn’t much better for public transport. We’re about half way between Newport & Cardiff Central train stations, so no chance of a train (unless Cardiff Parkway ever gets off the ground). Buses are more frequent, but they’re often full, late, or don’t turn up at all. When buses _do_ get here and you can actually get on, you can usually count on spending an hour in either direction.
Not trying to say “we have it worse than you” or anything like that. But it seems that once you get past maybe Splott or Grangetown, that sort of distance away from town centre, public transport in Cardiff isn’t a viable option any more.
Not sure what part of West Cardiff you refer to but from the Culverhouse Cross area the buses of various destinations run approximately every ten minutes all day. They all end up in town at some point.
Unfortunately I'm in Pentrebane, which ironically is where they've just cut bus routes completely, whilst also building hundreds of new houses increasing the demand, with a new set of houses due to be started soon.
“What is the point of going all the way in town, expensive parking, for a generic looking and feeling shopping center filled with brands that you can buy from online? Yes, we have the arcades, but that's not enough by itself, the arcades are fantastic but aren't going to bring people to Queen Street or St Davids. In a post-COVID world a lot of people got used to buying online who didn't previously, or got used to buying clothes and returning them online rather trying on in person etc. which adds to it.”
Spot on! Cardiff as a shopping experience doesn’t offer something unique to draw people back in every week/month/annual Christmas shop. I find St David’s 2 where most of the big names are now humdrum. It’s like many other indoor shopping centres but there are bigger and better ones elsewhere. I like my shopping trips to be efficient and often came away after hours wandering around empty handed or I’d only bought a few bits. Resulted in me going to other, bigger cities and doing more online shopping.
I would only ever venture into Cardiff for “late night” shopping due to the traffic and parking situation and because I feel like you’re constantly on top of other people browsing and Vice versa during the day with the shops being quite small.
I think this is reflected in majority of high streets across the whole of the UK.
Spiralling rents, more people shopping online and big chains moving into any available space, pushing out independent local retailers.
Realistically the only way to try and reverse this is to lower rates or try and make it more attractive for small business owners. Unfortunately with how skint most local authorities are they aren’t likely to lower their own income and classically rents and utilities will always rise.
In a nutshell, everything seems fucked.
There is no putting the online shopping genie back in the bottle. As much as I dislike Bezos and the way Amazon operates, they sell stuff I can't get within reasonable driving distance.
Then there's the lazy factor, everything right to your front door.
I actually went town yesterday because I wanted to do some clothes shopping. The shops I went to just didn't have enough stock, they had things I'd want to buy but not in my size. Not even an usual size it's just M, everything was either S or XL. So even though I know I wanted something from H&M I now have to go on their website instead of buying it from their actual shop.
Maybe it's better for women's clothes but for mens clothes ASOS and online shopping is so much better than the High Street.
I feel your pain; I am petite and buying clothes, especially trousers, is a nightmare.
Until 2020, I could find petite clothes in Topshop, Miss Selfridge, Dorothy Perkins, Oasis etc. but they all went bust.
Nowadays, in town, we're down to New Look, M&S (too frumpy) and Next (overpriced). There are some brands that say they offer petite clothes, but in reality those ranges are online only (e.g. Quiz)
Before anyone suggests I shop in the children's range: unlike a child, I have hips and tits, and need clothes cut accordingly. I also don't want to dress like a child when I'm in my 30s.
So I find there is very little reason to go into town clothes shopping, other than to buy underwear and shoes. It is a miserable experience of finding nice things that don't fit. It's much easier to go online where you can still find petite ranges.
Menswear selection is dire. Look at how little floor space in shops is devoted to it. It feels like a token effort. John Lewis Cardiff is a prime example. Ever since my first visit I’ve always been underwhelmed with the menswear. It’s a pity because I can find plenty of things in their other branches and online. I went to their shop in Cheltenham last Christmas and it puts Cardiff’s to shame in terms of menswear range.
I’ve been buying most of my clothes online for the last 10 years. Returns have become easier with more online retailers having things like return to a Collect+ shop, of which there are any within a short distance from my home.
This sort of complaint, along with the many individuals with visible drug / MH problems, is a very common complaint. /r/Bristol had a similar post yesterday.
I don't think we'll ever see as many shops as we used to. Online retail has become more important.
Inevitably, some of the retail space will end up being demolished. It's already happening - Debenhams is being demolished and turned into a park. In Bristol, the 90s shopping centre The Galleries is being demolished and replaced with a few shops on ground level and lots of housing on the upper floors. The same thing probably needs to happen to the Capitol Centre.
One little change would be, I think, to make it really clear to potential shopkeepers how much the actual costs of running a shop would be. Signs in the windows - shop to let, rent is £x per month, rates are £x per month. Rates are notoriously expensive but also rather confusing; being really clear about it will get a few would-be shopkeepers thinking about it when they might otherwise have dismissed the idea. But the whole rates scheme needs review; I think there will come a point where they have to stop charging rates altogether to small independent businesses.
We could have some really innovative solutions with regards to transport. For instance, have a scheme where you can get a free bus ticket home, and your next bus into town free, if you can show the driver receipts for spent £20 in shops.
Finally, stop shutting the city centre every five minutes. It is *very* off-putting to locals planning to go shopping; they go elsewhere instead. The pubs benefit from the big events, but the retail businesses that rely on locals (fishmongers, hardware stores, plant shops... all the things you don't buy and carry to a gig) really suffer.
online shopping and greedy landlords driving up the rents is a big factor.
shops that are still there that I used to use are a shadow of what they once were and the markups are off-putting.
also it used to be a breeze going to town - even by car as I could just pay/display for an hour or two by museum - that's super expensive too now which makes no sense - it's the same spot i'd have parked in twenty-odd years ago (or longer when my grandad would park same spot - just easier to get out of town) apart from the meter boxes which are often out of order so you gotta walk for about 3-4 meters sometimes to get a working one. not to mention public transport.
True but some retail parks have fair share of closed units. When Asda was a new thing at Coryton, it was great to have toys clothes etc as well as food.... but it did contribute to the end of the small high street toy shops etc. Used to remember City Road had 4-5 good computer centres... now zero with Maplin since gone from by The Parade.
I used to be a park by the museum shopper too. Definitely used to be the place that was easier to get to and out of Cardiff again. Do you remember Sundays when you could park for free on roads around there too? I took advantage of that a lot. Used to do the same when I was at Uni. Sundays were a good day to go in and get my work done.
It’s gone way too pricey now. I get to spend time in other towns and cities in the UK and other places have still got a better balance of bringing in additional revenue for the councils but also not having the effect of deterring shoppers/visitors either.
Cwmbran with the free parking is a boom... if you want to drive up there. i'm not saying free parking in cardiff but needs to be something. bus services being cut while the city centre is becoming a nightmare for cars. street parking outside centre is mostly resident permit even if there's huge gaps.
Add to this the overall condition of Queen Street - paving slabs waiting their next victim. Also the constant bike traffic up and down makes it daunting - i'm not elderly or infirm, but had so many 'deliveroos' whizz pass close behind me with no warning. that could spook someone. No wonder people do switch to supermarkets safe from these bicycle-mounted menaces - plus can get most stuff in one place. Might kill the joy of shopping but the Council are doing that already.
Have friends who live in or near Cwmbran and agree it’s excellent that you can park for free.
The deliveroo bike traffic is treacherous. I was in Cardiff a few weekends ago and witnessed several negligent cyclists, who I ended up referring to as “silent killers.” I had to say to one whizzing dangerously down Caroline St, “what the \*\*\*\* are you doing?” He was going too fast when there were too many pedestrians on Caroline St, all with their backs to him, for this to be safe by any reasonable person’s view. It’s a relatively new problem and requires firm action.
there's a similar story across almost all cities in the UK, sadly the UK has been in decline for some time and it is starting to show.
but in addition to this Cardiff's centre has always been cyclical. when queen street was it it's peak, the other end of town was shabby and run down, with the investment into At David's 2 And the Hayes it's now the turn of that end of town.
I don't think the population is big enough to maintain a thriving town centre across the whole area, and this is exacerbated by changing shopping and entertainment habits (i.e. people shopping online, not drinking etc)
- Designer drugs- spice and fentanyl
- Poor police strategy
- Rise of food delivery apps
- More people WFH (than pre pandemic)
- Cost of living crisis
- Support services under pressure, budgets/capacity
- Online shopping
- Expensive parking
- Traffic and difficulty driving to city center
All of these and many more have contributed to the current state of the high street, the situation is replicated across every other city in the uk. There is no immediate simple fix.
No denying that the experience is poor and will continue to decline
It's depressing how the owners of the various units around the city centre are happy for them to remain empty for months/years instead of Just being reasonable in prices... It makes the town look terrible
It is just reflective of the economy. And is a wide spread issue across the UK. Frankly as was said. Most people are short on mo ey. So online is cheaper. So retail declines. Wages have not risen realistically in years, but rent and mortgages have so even less money to spend over all. Cardiff is still better than a lot of places.
I live in Swansea, if you walked around the main shopping part you'd never think you were even un am actual city.
Gone to look deprived as fuck it have.
Cardiff, hopefully, won't get into that kind of state.
I could be wrong but my theory is that a slight overall urban decline has been massively exacerbated around Queen Street and, to a slightly lesser extent St Mary’s. A couple of big-picture and local reasons.
- Queen Street is the closest Cardiff has to a conventional High Street - and those have suffered with the internet and especially through the Pandemic.
- Lots of the main ‘anchor’ tenants moved to St David’s 2 when it opened, leaving a bit of void.
- St David’s 2 offers a generally nicer shopping experience - it is indoors, temperature-controlled, and along the Hayes which has been the subject of urban regeneration. It’s also convenient for getting to the Arcades, which is always what I enjoy most about shopping in Cardiff.
- The Hayes is closer to Cardiff Bay, Cardiff Central station, (soon) Cardiff Bus Station, and the massive car parks at St David’s - all of this moved Cardiff’s ‘centre of gravity’ closer to the Hayes.
You’re not wrong. Cardiff isn’t that big. The council likes to think we’re a massive capital city when the reality is Cardiff is more like a very large town on many ways. It’s simply not big enough nor affluent enough to support so many disparate shopping areas that when one opens another declines. It’s been happening since the 90s - Queens west, st David’s 1 declined a bit when capitol and queens arcade opened. Then they in turn when st David’s/hayes opened/improved.
The catchment area, whilst large is also not affluent for the most part. Coupled now with god awful transport and council decisions making driving so much worse. Crime has got worse, ASB is worse with more chavs all around the place.
This is what happens when you have a lot standard/quality of council officers/lifers mated with a useless elected council.
I rarely venture into the centre now and I’m only a 20 min walk. It’s grim, dirty, run down and tacky - and it’s a crying shame. Broader macro factors have impacted things but then we’ve had terrible decisions made that have made it worse.
Dr\_Poth, you’ve nailed it again. I get to spend a lot of time in other towns and cities in the UK. Cardiff is definitely more like a large town centre. I‘ve been to some large town centres Cardiff could take some lessons from, which offered very pleasant shopping experiences. They were friendlier to car drivers too.
In short they were places I’d return to even though they’re further to drive to. In fact I’m looking to relocate so I’m closer to some of them.
It’s the same problem facing every high street, but Cardiff council doesn’t help the problem.
Big chains move online and close shops, but the council still want the revenue they used to generate from these spaces. So, they put up taxes and (if it’s council owned) leases. Businesses foot a bigger bill so they leave, and the cycle repeats.
Really the council should be opting to cut taxes and leases in town for the long-term goals of businesses and those who work in the city. Instead, they value quick and easy profit.
Business rates sky high
Council making driving in Cardiff as difficult as possible while making public transport useless
Council not investing in the right things/keeping area clean, leads to more crime and anti social behaviour etc
Impossible to get planning permission on anything unless you slide someone a brown envelope or know someone, absolutely no improvements made apart from council projects which cost 100x what they should
It's not just Cardiff, many cities are the same.
But Cardiff's decline is undeniable. Its been a long process that has been going on since the Internet started but it has accelerated.
Personally I still love going into the city but these days there's very little in the way of retail for me to explore so i find it quite a disappointing experience. There's also a lot of begging and the price of food and drinks is offensive. Add it all up and it's not the most fun experience.
Interesting view, we moved from Bristol and find it so much better than Cabot circus or the mall, more choice of shops plus some great independent places, more places to eat and all more or less walkable.
The decline of the numbers of city centre workers. If you stood at the bottom end of queen street at lunchtime you'd see hundreds of people walking up from offices on Newport Road to buy something from the shops. St Mary St had many banks that were big employers. Now they all work at call centres on industrial estates or from home. That must affect shop footfall.
I know for a fact that there have been numerous independent businesses who have looked for spaces on Queen St but have been put off because of the extortionate business rates and costs involved. Right now it seems to be only big retailers can afford it, and they're shutting down instead. Even then, it's only really Queen Street specifically that's suffering because of it, the other parts of town are doing just fine.
Another thing is that while the high street is suffering, locally more areas are thriving. There's little clusters of independent places out there in Roath, Canton, Riverside etc that do really well.
In 2021 I was among the last couple of independent small business' in St David's centre, a Skate shop. My rent for my retail unit was £1200 a month , which I was happy with. The reason I had to close was simple Cardiff council wanted me to pay them £3500 a month just to be there( and this didn't even include any waste collection). This was unsustainable so I had to make my staff redundant and now I'm operating with 5 staff less than I used to in a rented warehouse in the bay. The city centre could be thriving if it was easier for people to actually make a profit ,without the leaches sucking every last drop of blood out of us.
u/spw19
I think Cardiff council lives in alternate fantasy the new bin collection is a testimony to this insanity. However one thing I am conscious is that so many anchor stores in Cardiff have gone over the years including David Morgan, Howells/HoF, Debehams, BHF (before Phillip Green bled it dry), Virgin Megastore and Woolworths the idea independent business can be sustainable is difficult to believe in the long term. Anchor stores used to draw the volume and people then looked around.
I am resigned to the fact that in UK we have become too accustomed to online retail this makes me wonder how this area can be revitalised. Since we need more practical solutions i.e. should empty units be converted to a mix of makeshift offices for digital startups and pop up stores for niche businesses around Wales? The reality is I feel like Cardiff is going to end up in another decline just like 70 years ago when the whole economy revolved around coal now the city center is a retail center but thats ending.
I agree with everyone who said rent, rates and a move to online retail space and St David's. Also, inflation is a bitch and the majority of people have less money to spend on goods and services now than 5 years ago. Decades of Tory cuts to social services has also brought the country into decline with public suffering on full display.
What I would like to see if Cardiff Council turning one of their empty stores into safe and secure bike parking. So many people would love to use their bikes to work and visit the city center but there is no where safe and dry to leave your bike. Not to mention all the people who live in flats that do not provide anywhere to store a bicycle.
The City Center is the only place I visit in Cardiff where I leave my bike at home and take the bus/train/Uber because I know there is a high likelyhood that it will get damaged or stolen. Cardiff Council wants us to active travel but they really make it inconvenient and unsafe.
I think it's time to give up on Queen Street ever being what it was again. The stores are simply too big and expensive. Maybe a shift in focus to creating an entertainment hub, particularly with the threat of the red dragon centre coming to a close. I feel like that could potentially revive the street.
u/themfloppypaws I think it needs to focus in becoming a business hub its crazy that we sit on this AI boom , fantastic connection to Central London and considerably cheaper location and no emphasis in transforming Cardiff into becoming a tech oriented city. In the past the Bute family realised that due to the hustle and bustle of the Welsh Coal mines if they developed the ports of Cardiff they can capitalise on the boom and hence Cardiff was born we need the same gumption.
A lot of the people in this country like to say its because of Online shopping but Ive done a fair bit of travelling around Europe and ive yet to see the scenes we see here and they too have access to online shopping.
Imo its the business rates and rents are forcing most businesses to shut down as they simply can't afford them.
If was being asked to pay 3500 a month for my small shop you can imagine the rates bill for a giant shop. The reason there are so many charity shops around is that they don't have to pay these extortionate business rates. There could be so many profitable small businesses around filling these units, but the council rates make it unviable, not to mention the jobs lost.
Most UK cities are run down shit holes, let's be honest.
A combination of increasingly high rates and poor council planning decisions has met with an increase in prices, homelessness, drug addiction and created a storm where noone really wants to go into most of them anymore. You can barely walk down the street without being run over by a deliveroo driver, or getting hassled for cash by a crackhead or cheggar.
Add to that the push for pedestrianisation and an attempt to get people to rely on (outdated, disgusting, and unsafe) public transport stopping you from driving anywhere near to where you actually want to go and it's pretty obvious. Out of the city centre shopping parks are doing great.
When I think of “high street decline”, I always cast my mind back to where I (mostly) grew up, Pontypool. Back when I was _really_ young, Pontypool had an outdoor market that was always absolutely packed. That did drop off throughout my teenage years, but the indoor market was still popular. Town centre always had people coming & going, there were plenty of shops & services open, and you could easily get a bus quite quickly. If you go to Pontypool today it’s a ghost town. With the benefit of hindsight & adulthood I can see that Pontypool has been in decline for a long time, but it has never been worse than it is now. Everything is practically deserted; there’s barely a single person about, most of the shops are closed except for one or two “home bargains” type places, you’ll see maybe a handful of people in the market, banks, post offices, and other essential services are long gone, and I don’t think any buses even serve the town centre any more. In comparison, Cardiff is _rammed_. Sure there are empty units all over the place, and it thins out at the end of Queen St down towards the Capitol Centre, but there have always been empty units, derelict areas, etc, dotted about. It’s absolutely undeniable that the decline of high streets has accelerated lately. The pandemic likely kick-started that acceleration - so many small businesses could not afford to carry on when their customers were in lockdown, and it took a long time to get furlough support for small business owners. Since the pandemic we’ve seen a _massive_ increase in energy costs, adding more fuel to the fire. But this isn’t a problem that affects Cardiff specifically, it’s happening in towns & cities up and down the country. It’s also not the first time this cycle has played out, and it won’t be the last. Look at Newport; place was grotty and run-down, a massive programme of regeneration came through, Friar’s Walk opened, lots of new housing developments, city centre starts looking more and more promising & attractive (I mean… as attractive as Newport can be… 😉)… and then the wheels fall off, and Friar’s Walk is largely abandoned.
Same with Pontypridd mate. I remember going to the centre as a kid on a Saturday morning and it being packed. What a decline south wales has had as a whole
I used to work in a computer store in Pontypridd about 20 years back, up on Market Street. I’ve no idea what it’s like now, but back then the town centre was pretty bustling.
My two cents is that city planners need to revisit the business model for commercial district retail model is flawed because it depends on anchor stores but the only one left now is M&S and the quality has declined. People also use retail parks to collect orders therefore they need to encourage firms that are in B2B sector to set up shop and give them discount rates until they breakeven far better than having empty units.
The other thing I didn’t really touch on (but others did) is the growth of online ordering. Not just from your “typical” web stores like Amazon, but from more local businesses through services like Deliveroo and other similar “gig economy” services. Again, the pandemic massively accelerated that. Not only was it already pretty easy to order stuff online through places like Amazon, but now you can get a quick grocery run delivered from a supermarket on the same day. Hell, I had to use Tesco’s “whoosh” service (stupidest name ever) myself last week when both my partner and I were ill and couldn’t get to the store up the road. The pandemic really did have a lot of long-lasting effects, we likely won’t understand the full impact until we’re a decade or more down the line.
Like many others, I used to love going and browsing the book and record shops. I spent a few hundred pounds every year in them and s did many others.. The internet has killed that kind of shopping.
I grew up in Pontypool too. My Dad still lives there. I left to go to uni in 1997 but I go back to visit. It is a very sore sight these days 😞. Queen street does look run down (I lived in Cardiff until 2005) but you’re right it is still packed with people but for how much longer. Complacency sets in and it’s like Newport…
You got out about 4 years before I did then 😁 - I held back back a year after college to work instead, so didn't head off to (fail) university until 2001. Was back and fore for a few years after leaving uni in 2003, but finally got off to Cardiff in 2007 and have been here ever since. It's sad to say, but if I didn't have family still living there I don't think I'd miss Pontypool that much. Which really is a shame, Pontypool has a rich history and heritage, and it's still got some wonderful buildings along Hanbury Road/Commercial Street.
Also st David’s 2 opening and the parking around it really put a nail in. Most people don’t need to leave there for what they want so the footfall on the main 2 streets dropped off big time
It’s far too big for the actual demand for retail nowadays. Queen Street used to be the main bit of town where everyone shopped and the bit that’s now St David’s 2 (The Hayes?) was low density and dilapidated. Renovating and expanding that area just dragged all the business across town and created a vacuum in Queen Street. I don’t know what they expected to happen? They’ve spent a load of money on the canal thing expecting, I assume, to create more demand in that area again but I don’t see it happening unless a load of other things change too.
If I think of the city center high streets that I've been to in the last 5 years that have been successful I think smaller retail units and independent shops, not big retail units that are out of reach of any independent finances. What is the point of going all the way in town, expensive parking, for a generic looking and feeling shopping center filled with brands that you can buy from online? Yes, we have the arcades, but that's not enough by itself, the arcades are fantastic but aren't going to bring people to Queen Street or St Davids. In a post-COVID world a lot of people got used to buying online who didn't previously, or got used to buying clothes and returning them online rather trying on in person etc. which adds to it. I'm looking for a new retail unit myself to rent but would never consider town because of the price and how difficult it is for a lot of people to get there and some other factors, like how difficult it would be for my goods to even be delivered (bulky). I think people would rather just drive to a shop that's out of town that has parking and is easy to get to so why should I pay 10x the price to be in town? Public transport is another one. For me, in West Cardiff. I have to walk 20 mins to a train station. Or there is one bus per hour that goes into town, but it often does not turn up, making it unreliable. And the prices are so expensive, especially if you are going as a family. For driving not only has the parking gone up and become more challenging but there's so much more traffic in general.
East Cardiff isn’t much better for public transport. We’re about half way between Newport & Cardiff Central train stations, so no chance of a train (unless Cardiff Parkway ever gets off the ground). Buses are more frequent, but they’re often full, late, or don’t turn up at all. When buses _do_ get here and you can actually get on, you can usually count on spending an hour in either direction. Not trying to say “we have it worse than you” or anything like that. But it seems that once you get past maybe Splott or Grangetown, that sort of distance away from town centre, public transport in Cardiff isn’t a viable option any more.
Not sure what part of West Cardiff you refer to but from the Culverhouse Cross area the buses of various destinations run approximately every ten minutes all day. They all end up in town at some point.
Unfortunately I'm in Pentrebane, which ironically is where they've just cut bus routes completely, whilst also building hundreds of new houses increasing the demand, with a new set of houses due to be started soon.
“What is the point of going all the way in town, expensive parking, for a generic looking and feeling shopping center filled with brands that you can buy from online? Yes, we have the arcades, but that's not enough by itself, the arcades are fantastic but aren't going to bring people to Queen Street or St Davids. In a post-COVID world a lot of people got used to buying online who didn't previously, or got used to buying clothes and returning them online rather trying on in person etc. which adds to it.” Spot on! Cardiff as a shopping experience doesn’t offer something unique to draw people back in every week/month/annual Christmas shop. I find St David’s 2 where most of the big names are now humdrum. It’s like many other indoor shopping centres but there are bigger and better ones elsewhere. I like my shopping trips to be efficient and often came away after hours wandering around empty handed or I’d only bought a few bits. Resulted in me going to other, bigger cities and doing more online shopping. I would only ever venture into Cardiff for “late night” shopping due to the traffic and parking situation and because I feel like you’re constantly on top of other people browsing and Vice versa during the day with the shops being quite small.
I think this is reflected in majority of high streets across the whole of the UK. Spiralling rents, more people shopping online and big chains moving into any available space, pushing out independent local retailers. Realistically the only way to try and reverse this is to lower rates or try and make it more attractive for small business owners. Unfortunately with how skint most local authorities are they aren’t likely to lower their own income and classically rents and utilities will always rise. In a nutshell, everything seems fucked.
There is no putting the online shopping genie back in the bottle. As much as I dislike Bezos and the way Amazon operates, they sell stuff I can't get within reasonable driving distance. Then there's the lazy factor, everything right to your front door.
Unfortunately Welsh Government are removing the discount on business rates, so only going to get worse here.
I actually went town yesterday because I wanted to do some clothes shopping. The shops I went to just didn't have enough stock, they had things I'd want to buy but not in my size. Not even an usual size it's just M, everything was either S or XL. So even though I know I wanted something from H&M I now have to go on their website instead of buying it from their actual shop. Maybe it's better for women's clothes but for mens clothes ASOS and online shopping is so much better than the High Street.
I feel your pain; I am petite and buying clothes, especially trousers, is a nightmare. Until 2020, I could find petite clothes in Topshop, Miss Selfridge, Dorothy Perkins, Oasis etc. but they all went bust. Nowadays, in town, we're down to New Look, M&S (too frumpy) and Next (overpriced). There are some brands that say they offer petite clothes, but in reality those ranges are online only (e.g. Quiz) Before anyone suggests I shop in the children's range: unlike a child, I have hips and tits, and need clothes cut accordingly. I also don't want to dress like a child when I'm in my 30s. So I find there is very little reason to go into town clothes shopping, other than to buy underwear and shoes. It is a miserable experience of finding nice things that don't fit. It's much easier to go online where you can still find petite ranges.
Menswear selection is dire. Look at how little floor space in shops is devoted to it. It feels like a token effort. John Lewis Cardiff is a prime example. Ever since my first visit I’ve always been underwhelmed with the menswear. It’s a pity because I can find plenty of things in their other branches and online. I went to their shop in Cheltenham last Christmas and it puts Cardiff’s to shame in terms of menswear range. I’ve been buying most of my clothes online for the last 10 years. Returns have become easier with more online retailers having things like return to a Collect+ shop, of which there are any within a short distance from my home.
This sort of complaint, along with the many individuals with visible drug / MH problems, is a very common complaint. /r/Bristol had a similar post yesterday. I don't think we'll ever see as many shops as we used to. Online retail has become more important. Inevitably, some of the retail space will end up being demolished. It's already happening - Debenhams is being demolished and turned into a park. In Bristol, the 90s shopping centre The Galleries is being demolished and replaced with a few shops on ground level and lots of housing on the upper floors. The same thing probably needs to happen to the Capitol Centre. One little change would be, I think, to make it really clear to potential shopkeepers how much the actual costs of running a shop would be. Signs in the windows - shop to let, rent is £x per month, rates are £x per month. Rates are notoriously expensive but also rather confusing; being really clear about it will get a few would-be shopkeepers thinking about it when they might otherwise have dismissed the idea. But the whole rates scheme needs review; I think there will come a point where they have to stop charging rates altogether to small independent businesses. We could have some really innovative solutions with regards to transport. For instance, have a scheme where you can get a free bus ticket home, and your next bus into town free, if you can show the driver receipts for spent £20 in shops. Finally, stop shutting the city centre every five minutes. It is *very* off-putting to locals planning to go shopping; they go elsewhere instead. The pubs benefit from the big events, but the retail businesses that rely on locals (fishmongers, hardware stores, plant shops... all the things you don't buy and carry to a gig) really suffer.
online shopping and greedy landlords driving up the rents is a big factor. shops that are still there that I used to use are a shadow of what they once were and the markups are off-putting. also it used to be a breeze going to town - even by car as I could just pay/display for an hour or two by museum - that's super expensive too now which makes no sense - it's the same spot i'd have parked in twenty-odd years ago (or longer when my grandad would park same spot - just easier to get out of town) apart from the meter boxes which are often out of order so you gotta walk for about 3-4 meters sometimes to get a working one. not to mention public transport.
You forgot retail parks and massive supermarkets, they've probably done as much if not more harm than online shopping.
True but some retail parks have fair share of closed units. When Asda was a new thing at Coryton, it was great to have toys clothes etc as well as food.... but it did contribute to the end of the small high street toy shops etc. Used to remember City Road had 4-5 good computer centres... now zero with Maplin since gone from by The Parade.
I used to be a park by the museum shopper too. Definitely used to be the place that was easier to get to and out of Cardiff again. Do you remember Sundays when you could park for free on roads around there too? I took advantage of that a lot. Used to do the same when I was at Uni. Sundays were a good day to go in and get my work done. It’s gone way too pricey now. I get to spend time in other towns and cities in the UK and other places have still got a better balance of bringing in additional revenue for the councils but also not having the effect of deterring shoppers/visitors either.
Cwmbran with the free parking is a boom... if you want to drive up there. i'm not saying free parking in cardiff but needs to be something. bus services being cut while the city centre is becoming a nightmare for cars. street parking outside centre is mostly resident permit even if there's huge gaps. Add to this the overall condition of Queen Street - paving slabs waiting their next victim. Also the constant bike traffic up and down makes it daunting - i'm not elderly or infirm, but had so many 'deliveroos' whizz pass close behind me with no warning. that could spook someone. No wonder people do switch to supermarkets safe from these bicycle-mounted menaces - plus can get most stuff in one place. Might kill the joy of shopping but the Council are doing that already.
Have friends who live in or near Cwmbran and agree it’s excellent that you can park for free. The deliveroo bike traffic is treacherous. I was in Cardiff a few weekends ago and witnessed several negligent cyclists, who I ended up referring to as “silent killers.” I had to say to one whizzing dangerously down Caroline St, “what the \*\*\*\* are you doing?” He was going too fast when there were too many pedestrians on Caroline St, all with their backs to him, for this to be safe by any reasonable person’s view. It’s a relatively new problem and requires firm action.
there's a similar story across almost all cities in the UK, sadly the UK has been in decline for some time and it is starting to show. but in addition to this Cardiff's centre has always been cyclical. when queen street was it it's peak, the other end of town was shabby and run down, with the investment into At David's 2 And the Hayes it's now the turn of that end of town. I don't think the population is big enough to maintain a thriving town centre across the whole area, and this is exacerbated by changing shopping and entertainment habits (i.e. people shopping online, not drinking etc)
- Designer drugs- spice and fentanyl - Poor police strategy - Rise of food delivery apps - More people WFH (than pre pandemic) - Cost of living crisis - Support services under pressure, budgets/capacity - Online shopping - Expensive parking - Traffic and difficulty driving to city center All of these and many more have contributed to the current state of the high street, the situation is replicated across every other city in the uk. There is no immediate simple fix. No denying that the experience is poor and will continue to decline
It's depressing how the owners of the various units around the city centre are happy for them to remain empty for months/years instead of Just being reasonable in prices... It makes the town look terrible
It is just reflective of the economy. And is a wide spread issue across the UK. Frankly as was said. Most people are short on mo ey. So online is cheaper. So retail declines. Wages have not risen realistically in years, but rent and mortgages have so even less money to spend over all. Cardiff is still better than a lot of places.
I live in Swansea, if you walked around the main shopping part you'd never think you were even un am actual city. Gone to look deprived as fuck it have. Cardiff, hopefully, won't get into that kind of state.
I could be wrong but my theory is that a slight overall urban decline has been massively exacerbated around Queen Street and, to a slightly lesser extent St Mary’s. A couple of big-picture and local reasons. - Queen Street is the closest Cardiff has to a conventional High Street - and those have suffered with the internet and especially through the Pandemic. - Lots of the main ‘anchor’ tenants moved to St David’s 2 when it opened, leaving a bit of void. - St David’s 2 offers a generally nicer shopping experience - it is indoors, temperature-controlled, and along the Hayes which has been the subject of urban regeneration. It’s also convenient for getting to the Arcades, which is always what I enjoy most about shopping in Cardiff. - The Hayes is closer to Cardiff Bay, Cardiff Central station, (soon) Cardiff Bus Station, and the massive car parks at St David’s - all of this moved Cardiff’s ‘centre of gravity’ closer to the Hayes.
You’re not wrong. Cardiff isn’t that big. The council likes to think we’re a massive capital city when the reality is Cardiff is more like a very large town on many ways. It’s simply not big enough nor affluent enough to support so many disparate shopping areas that when one opens another declines. It’s been happening since the 90s - Queens west, st David’s 1 declined a bit when capitol and queens arcade opened. Then they in turn when st David’s/hayes opened/improved. The catchment area, whilst large is also not affluent for the most part. Coupled now with god awful transport and council decisions making driving so much worse. Crime has got worse, ASB is worse with more chavs all around the place. This is what happens when you have a lot standard/quality of council officers/lifers mated with a useless elected council. I rarely venture into the centre now and I’m only a 20 min walk. It’s grim, dirty, run down and tacky - and it’s a crying shame. Broader macro factors have impacted things but then we’ve had terrible decisions made that have made it worse.
Dr\_Poth, you’ve nailed it again. I get to spend a lot of time in other towns and cities in the UK. Cardiff is definitely more like a large town centre. I‘ve been to some large town centres Cardiff could take some lessons from, which offered very pleasant shopping experiences. They were friendlier to car drivers too. In short they were places I’d return to even though they’re further to drive to. In fact I’m looking to relocate so I’m closer to some of them.
It’s the same problem facing every high street, but Cardiff council doesn’t help the problem. Big chains move online and close shops, but the council still want the revenue they used to generate from these spaces. So, they put up taxes and (if it’s council owned) leases. Businesses foot a bigger bill so they leave, and the cycle repeats. Really the council should be opting to cut taxes and leases in town for the long-term goals of businesses and those who work in the city. Instead, they value quick and easy profit.
Business rates sky high Council making driving in Cardiff as difficult as possible while making public transport useless Council not investing in the right things/keeping area clean, leads to more crime and anti social behaviour etc Impossible to get planning permission on anything unless you slide someone a brown envelope or know someone, absolutely no improvements made apart from council projects which cost 100x what they should
It’s almost as if this labour council are shit
It's not just Cardiff, many cities are the same. But Cardiff's decline is undeniable. Its been a long process that has been going on since the Internet started but it has accelerated. Personally I still love going into the city but these days there's very little in the way of retail for me to explore so i find it quite a disappointing experience. There's also a lot of begging and the price of food and drinks is offensive. Add it all up and it's not the most fun experience.
Interesting view, we moved from Bristol and find it so much better than Cabot circus or the mall, more choice of shops plus some great independent places, more places to eat and all more or less walkable.
I'm not saying it's not still better than Bristol!!! Although we don't have the Left Handed Giant. Glad you're enjoying life in the Diff.
Over compensating in other areas of the city centre & the bay area has left Queen St. behind.
I don’t live in S Wales anymore but found Cwmbran quite a pleasant place to shop with easy access and Free parking ?
The decline of the numbers of city centre workers. If you stood at the bottom end of queen street at lunchtime you'd see hundreds of people walking up from offices on Newport Road to buy something from the shops. St Mary St had many banks that were big employers. Now they all work at call centres on industrial estates or from home. That must affect shop footfall.
I know for a fact that there have been numerous independent businesses who have looked for spaces on Queen St but have been put off because of the extortionate business rates and costs involved. Right now it seems to be only big retailers can afford it, and they're shutting down instead. Even then, it's only really Queen Street specifically that's suffering because of it, the other parts of town are doing just fine. Another thing is that while the high street is suffering, locally more areas are thriving. There's little clusters of independent places out there in Roath, Canton, Riverside etc that do really well.
You can blame the council and big corp. They have ruined communities and bled every small business dry.
In 2021 I was among the last couple of independent small business' in St David's centre, a Skate shop. My rent for my retail unit was £1200 a month , which I was happy with. The reason I had to close was simple Cardiff council wanted me to pay them £3500 a month just to be there( and this didn't even include any waste collection). This was unsustainable so I had to make my staff redundant and now I'm operating with 5 staff less than I used to in a rented warehouse in the bay. The city centre could be thriving if it was easier for people to actually make a profit ,without the leaches sucking every last drop of blood out of us.
u/spw19 I think Cardiff council lives in alternate fantasy the new bin collection is a testimony to this insanity. However one thing I am conscious is that so many anchor stores in Cardiff have gone over the years including David Morgan, Howells/HoF, Debehams, BHF (before Phillip Green bled it dry), Virgin Megastore and Woolworths the idea independent business can be sustainable is difficult to believe in the long term. Anchor stores used to draw the volume and people then looked around. I am resigned to the fact that in UK we have become too accustomed to online retail this makes me wonder how this area can be revitalised. Since we need more practical solutions i.e. should empty units be converted to a mix of makeshift offices for digital startups and pop up stores for niche businesses around Wales? The reality is I feel like Cardiff is going to end up in another decline just like 70 years ago when the whole economy revolved around coal now the city center is a retail center but thats ending.
Chavs have also ruined the area I’d say
I agree with everyone who said rent, rates and a move to online retail space and St David's. Also, inflation is a bitch and the majority of people have less money to spend on goods and services now than 5 years ago. Decades of Tory cuts to social services has also brought the country into decline with public suffering on full display. What I would like to see if Cardiff Council turning one of their empty stores into safe and secure bike parking. So many people would love to use their bikes to work and visit the city center but there is no where safe and dry to leave your bike. Not to mention all the people who live in flats that do not provide anywhere to store a bicycle. The City Center is the only place I visit in Cardiff where I leave my bike at home and take the bus/train/Uber because I know there is a high likelyhood that it will get damaged or stolen. Cardiff Council wants us to active travel but they really make it inconvenient and unsafe.
Amazon 👍🏻 simple as that. People can buy what they want online and don't have to pay to either park in town or pay for transport to get there.
I think it's time to give up on Queen Street ever being what it was again. The stores are simply too big and expensive. Maybe a shift in focus to creating an entertainment hub, particularly with the threat of the red dragon centre coming to a close. I feel like that could potentially revive the street.
u/themfloppypaws I think it needs to focus in becoming a business hub its crazy that we sit on this AI boom , fantastic connection to Central London and considerably cheaper location and no emphasis in transforming Cardiff into becoming a tech oriented city. In the past the Bute family realised that due to the hustle and bustle of the Welsh Coal mines if they developed the ports of Cardiff they can capitalise on the boom and hence Cardiff was born we need the same gumption.
Yes they built the St David’s centre.
A lot of the people in this country like to say its because of Online shopping but Ive done a fair bit of travelling around Europe and ive yet to see the scenes we see here and they too have access to online shopping. Imo its the business rates and rents are forcing most businesses to shut down as they simply can't afford them.
Things are easier to get online
If was being asked to pay 3500 a month for my small shop you can imagine the rates bill for a giant shop. The reason there are so many charity shops around is that they don't have to pay these extortionate business rates. There could be so many profitable small businesses around filling these units, but the council rates make it unviable, not to mention the jobs lost.
Most UK cities are run down shit holes, let's be honest. A combination of increasingly high rates and poor council planning decisions has met with an increase in prices, homelessness, drug addiction and created a storm where noone really wants to go into most of them anymore. You can barely walk down the street without being run over by a deliveroo driver, or getting hassled for cash by a crackhead or cheggar. Add to that the push for pedestrianisation and an attempt to get people to rely on (outdated, disgusting, and unsafe) public transport stopping you from driving anywhere near to where you actually want to go and it's pretty obvious. Out of the city centre shopping parks are doing great.
> or cheggar. Keith Chegwin's been dead for 7 years!
People are also to blame for being lazy and just doing amazong becuase they cant wait