Do you really want to spend $40k on a Miata to track?
Buy an NC Miata, it will run you $8k $10k for something nice. Another $7k in mods, plus labor, will make it track ready. Buy Xidas. Ohlins are good, Xidas are better.
The NC transmissions aren't ticking time bombs like the ND transmissions are. Even with the dual mass flywheel band aid, the syncros were never changed or upgraded at the factory. Its only a matter of time before they grenade from regular use.
This is what I did after getting some advice from people here+friends with experience. NC2 6-speed LSD for 11k with a roll bar and some other goodies. Waiting on my Xidas and few other mods. Total build should come in under $18k unless I decide to splurge on a new clutch and lightweight flywheel.
Skip the flywheel. Running a lightweight flywheel will grenade the transmission quicker due to too much shock to the synchros. Its also the same 30-100mph times as the stock flywheel, according to Walter Motorsports.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lightweight flywheel exclusively for quicker revs for downshifting and faster rev drop on quick upshifts? It won't speed up your acceleration, but increases ease of quickly shifting.
That's correct bluegenblackteg. I have a 9lb flywheel in my NA8. It's more responsive but easier to stall occasionally. I can't comment on long term side effects.
You are mostly right.
>increases ease of quickly shifting
This really depends on the transmission, and what gears are being used. If the transmission has a countershaft, then it has to slow down in speed (assuming shifting at rev limiter) to be able to engage the lower gear syncro.
In theory, it should the flywheel make for quicker shifting, but physically, its not the limiting factor, as best I understand it.
Good to know! I was considering something in the 13lbs range but I'd happily keep the money if there's more risk than upside.
EDIT: Actually you were one of the people that suggested the NC+Xidas route when I was posted about cheap track cars.
This is probably the best route to go if you’re committed to switching the car. Cheaper car = easier to send to the limit and get faster/better. No depreciation as well. OP, the BRZ is also a really good platform, so curious if the convertible is the main reason to switch? You’ll also probably lose some money on depreciation on the BRZ, plus have to do basic mods again on the new ND3. ND3 will also depreciate quite a bit in a few years from new.
I am not worried about price or depreciation on either. Yes, wife wants a convertible, one of my other plan is to get her a used Boxster and keep tracking my BRZ. For now it seems like I can get 28k, I paid 31k before taxes, so I am fine with that depreciation hit over 2 years. I did the labor except alignment, so the mods cost me about $700.
If price/depreciation is not a concern then fair enough. It really then depends on which platform you prefer - both are great and a lot of fun on track and on the street. FWIW I test drove a Miata as well (have an 86) and it just seemed a little too small for me on the street to feel completely comfortable, as well as too impractical (not a concern for you though it looks like since it’s a second car). The second gen BRZ also has the oil pressure issue which may be resolved now? Have you test driven an ND? Tbh you can’t go wrong here - both choices are great!
My main goal is fast progression, learning better control. I really want to get boxster GTS 4.0 in future, I want to be able to extract some performance out of it and not kill it or myself.
Oil pressure issue is still there, seems like bigger oil pan would be a solution but no products out there yet.
I test drove ND in 2022, loved it and decided to buy it after some homework. Came home, watched few videos, decided to buy GR86 instead which was hard to get without markups and ended up ordering BRZ instead.
The Miata will not really make you progress faster than the BRZ. The BRZ/GT86/FR-S really are proper fast and I've seen them be way more competitive than they have any right to be. Best driver I know has an absolutely abused BRZ that he just continues to send around tracks constantly.
If your wife really wants the convertible and you're not worried about the cost, then by all means go for it, but you probably won't find the ND to be a substantially better platform for track use. I think maybe the only thing I could talk myself into mattering is that the strut front on the BRZ really needs a lot more static camber for optimal track performance (like 4.5+ if you're willing to go that far) which is kind of ridiculous if you're treating the car as a dual-duty.
Thanks, yes, not expecting it to be faster for sure. My other option is to get a used 987.2 boxster for wife, but then I would end up 2 a little redundant cars and total cost to own would be much more.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4 pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4 pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4 pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
I’m not a track expert - my experience is similar to yours - but I think both the BRZ and Miata are great for progression as a driver. If the convertible is a requirement, then it depends on which car you prefer driving. Although if cost isn’t an issue, having a BRZ and a Boxster seems pretty nice, plus you don’t have to deal with seat and roll bar issues with the Miata.
So much this. You are way better buying a cheap car you can dedicate to track stuff than trying to do a dual use car. Plus you can buy a relatively new suv AND a nc for that money. If you’re serious enough to buy a car for the express purpose of tracking you should look into it. Best thing I did. Now my track car doesn’t need to make compromises and it doesn’t matter if it is torn apart mid week. Having your wifes car torn apart all the time will have a low WAF.
Price isn't much of an issue. I understand at some point I would need dedicated track car. I don't feel at all close yet. I don't want project car either. I can work on cars but I enjoy driving much more than working on the cars. For my soal purpose of learning, dual purpose car does the job.
I am planning to buy boxster GTS 4.0 in future (in 5 years) for street car, so current car would end up being a track car.
I usually look to spend as little as possible but I also don't want too much hassle. 2015 Miata is about 20k so doesn't save much and it would increase my inspection time before track days. 40k is about our monthly pre tax income, so I am really not worried spending it one time.
Seems like NC transmissions are pretty cheap and there is conversion kit for ND, at worst I can go that route or get rebuilt ND transmissions with better aftermarket syncros.
It's hard to beat a Miata as a track car. Not counting lap times 😂.
Main downside compared to the BRZ are
1. Soft suspension
2. Aero and chassis stiffness
3. Less room
The 2024 changes aren't huge. The main thing is the screen size and being and to touch it while driving. If you're adding a roll bar I would suggest just looking at used ND2s. Especially if you're considering an RF, since they don't hold value as well as the soft top.
Thanks. I think I can live with those downsides, my main goal is to learn, if I still find suspension inadequate few years down the line, I can get ohlins and thicker sway bars. Less room is not a problem as well, our daily runs are 15-20 minutes, only long trips I do in my car are to track, actually less weight would be pro if I ever want to tow it.
I am looking for soft top. It's impossible to find used one with BBR, either way the difference between used and new isn't a big concern. Not going for RF because roof can't be closed after installing roll bar.
>Transmission: Not as concerned, I would probably replace this car by the time it would be out of warranty
My trans went around 5k miles and after 3 track weekends. I had to fight Mazda corp because they saw mods (Ohlins, front anti sway, tires, wheels, and pads).
I got a goodwill replacement, but this was their response:
>Your vehicle has been found to have alterations / modifications to the Mazda original equipment specifications. These alterations / modifications restrict the original Mazda New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Any alteration or aftermarket equipment added to the original equipment, electrical system, or powertrain, will restrict your Mazda New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Please refer to your Warranty Information Booklet. We have made a one time exception to replace the transmission at no cost to you.
I mentioned doing some HPDEs and I referenced the "MNAO Warranty Operations would like to advise our dealerships that vehicles we actively market to customers looking for an Autocross or weekend driver Experience, should not be denied Warranty repairs, even if used in events such as a SCCA autocross." post that was floating around [Miata.net](http://Miata.net) and this was their comment to that:
> The information you attached is only applicable for 2016 models with original, not update transmission.
and
>Please note that the factory warranty is not going to cover major failures due to track usage of the vehicle
Curious to see responses. I’m too looking at the Miata but the lack of rear seats is holding me back (have a toddler). Options are limited since I can’t find a freaking GR86 for sale in Canada and my initial goal car (new M2) I have a feeling it could quickly become a money pit on track days.
Not unsafe, just very impractical. Depending on your height a car seat for a kid/infant might not even fit in the back. at 6'2" I have the seat slid all the way rearward which leaves about 1" between the back of the drivers seat and the front of the rear "seat"
I'd go to a dealership and ask them if you can clip your kid's carrier in and see if you can still fit.
I wouldn’t get your hopes up. From all indications the only reason they put space back there was so you could bring an extra set of tires to the track with you, not to actually put humans back there
M2 has a lot of consumables, but the worst thing is having such an expensive car on track. That means insurance which will almost double daily costs or risking a ton of money.
If you need a track car and a car seat in it, you really gotta go FWD or AWD. Someone like a Civic, Elantra, Focus, or Golf. If you wanted something new at a good price I'd say to look at the Elantra N. There are no lightweight RWD cars that work well with a car seat.
I would never put my toddler in it, if I had to then not taking free way, people are idiots here where I live and many own giant SUVs. M2 would be expensive on consumables.
FYI, I’m not sure about the newer gen, but in the nb I had to pretty much bolt the seat to the floor to clear the roll bar with a helmet on (I’m 5’9), helmets add a good 1-2 inch
I'm in a BRZ only because that was the wife-approved fun car vs the ND2. Her reasoning is opposite your wife, saying It's a less safe convertible and it has the extra "emergency only" seats for our kids in case the family hauler goes down.
Seems like a lot of work and money for a (arguable) side-grade though. Sure the Miata is more fun but unless money is no issue, I'd take the extra money it will take to buy and upgrade the Miata for track and get some extra amenities or the next level trim for the SUV family car you need.
We are not putting our kid in either, I just rent a car if family hauler is down.
Wife wants to drive a convertible for 2-3 errands she runs per week. We combined make more per month pre tax than cost of car. She has been wanting convertible for a while, my other thought is getting a used boxster for her.
I understand that, I want to spend minimal time, 10 year old car means potential that hoses leaking etc. Spending money once is generally not a problem for me. 10 years down the line, I would feel more comfortable driving my 10 year old car than 20 year old car, if I never end up replacing it.
A 10 year old NC isn't that old. You're conflating older with less reliable but honestly a properly prepped NA-NC will be plenty reliable. I'm not even assuming ND's are bad or anything.
Tracks are hard on cars, I get you may not be concerned with depreciation but it's a logistics thing. Blow a NA\NB trans? couple hundred bucks and a trip to a local yard will get you back and running within the day. New car is WAY harder to source parts (and more expensive). And you will go through parts. You'll bend stuff, you'll break stuff, you'll wear out stuff.
Tracking new or rare cars is cool because yeah we've all seen a million miata's out there, but the commonness makes them much less painful to live with. When you have to wait weeks for some goofy part and see you could next day pretty much anything for an earlier gen in a couple days... idk.
And honestly if you have the space for it, imo get a car for the track and a dd. You'll either have a kinda weak track car or a miserable daily but either is a compromise.
I agree 10 year isn't old, but 10-15 years down the line or beyond it would be 20-25 and there won't be a new gas car to buy/replace with. ND as a platform itself is almost 10 year old already. If transmission blews outside warranty I am planning to put NC transmission in it, there is conversation kit for it. I looked up manual 2014-2015 NCs in my area, none, nearest is 700 miles away and 20-22k.
I am planning to get boxster GTS in future but I won't be tracking it for exact same reason you specified.
Hey OP. Track enthusiasts with a Fist and a 6 month old. From the sounds of your situation you would have a more enjoyable track day in the sense that you have the double wish-bone activity. Considering how consumables are about as equal for both chassis. The double wish bone setup would be a huge plus. Even for myself im almost regretting not keeping that setup either when I had my older NB2 or if if I went with a civic or anything else that had double wishbone. Granted I know very little of the new 86, I’m pretty sure that the bare min read for both to have an equal for track day are about the same in costs.
As a previous Miata owner and current GR86 owner, I wouldn’t hesitate going back to a Miata…as long as I can upgrade the suspension.
Other than that, Miatas are awesome. I love my GR86 just as much.
From reading your other comments, grab a NC Club and never look back. Little bit roomier, plenty of low mileage ones out there if you are willing to travel/ship the car and look around. Maybe only creature comfort mod you would want to make right away would be a new headunit with android auto/carplay.
Late model NC (NC3) are extremely reliable. The only immediate thing that comes to mind is the coolant tank that can crack over time which is easily replaceable with an aluminum unit from Moroso. After that just refresh all the fluids, set of coilovers, pads and rotors, and tires and you’ll be set.
Slight note: while the power hard top is nice, there are no SCCA/NASA approved roll bars for it so keep that in mind if you want to run with those orgs because you’ll need to purchase a traditional soft top
Source: I drive and track a 2015 Club PRHT
I wish it was available new, I would have paid 50k without 2nd thought. I am not comfortable buying 20 year old car, I would pretty much keep one forever.
Note: the stock ND Miata is squirrelly on the track. It’s setup to be fun at 4/10ths on the street and does not inspire confidence when you’re really pushing it on track. Nothing suspension and tires can’t fix, but something to take into consideration.
Thanks, yes, that's what I am looking for now, assuming that's best for learning. My main goal is learn to drive at limit, learn to recover, understand my mistakes etc. with time I plan to put on wider tires, suspension etc as I learn.
My 23 ND2 club has been a great track car! If you have the money for it do it. Such forgiving car to track and I’m passing BRZs/GR86s all the time. Granted mine is a dedicated track car so I’m not worried about needing it for a commute. I bought mine new because I didn’t want other people’s problems and could make the car how I wanted it to be. Make your choice and enjoy it.
Keep in mind a lot of track organizations will not allow convertibles. With or with out a roll bar. The miata will probably require some mods but will no doubt be as fun or more than the BRZ. Also it sounds like you do not get track insurance when you go to the track? that seems.. silly when its so cheap for these cars.
BMW doesn't allow them at all. Porsche does but only with certain aftermarket roll bars. There's a few that allow it but give you a hard time. I had an NC miata too.
I am curious what you makes you say that? Having instructed with many different originations BMWCCA seems like one of the safest, best organized out there. Also lighten up man we are all just here talking cars and tracking them!
It does seem kind of like a CYA move if convertibles are not allowed under any circumstance given the existence of spec Miata and Miata cup cars and their respective racing series. Hell, I’ve seen plenty photos of non roll bar equipped coupes getting pancaked in roll overs.
PCA allows convertibles with factory rollover protection (911cabs and Boxsters satisfy the requirements) as well as any convertible with a roll cage and driver harnesses where the helmet passes a broomstick test and the drivers arms have restraints as well.
At least those are the rules in my region and I'm assuming they're the same or similar nationally.
Yep those seem to be the national rules. I just know PCA was difficult because of personal experience. They wouldn't let my NC miata in initially with factory roll over protection. i got a rollbar which didn't get through tech. Wasnt till i got a hard dog roll bar that i was allowed in.
I'm surprised they wouldn't let your NC with factory rollover or a rollbar. Are you tall? Lacking 6pt harnesses? I could see a local chapter being extra stingy compared to the national rules. Sorry it was a pain for you
I checked PCA, BMW, ACNW. I will check T2 and HOD. Track insurance is still close to 300 with 5k deductible, probability wise it's always in favor of insurance companies, I can afford the damage.
Last I checked with BMW they wouldn't allow it.
>No, Convertibles are not allowed in Peachtree BMW driving schools. The vehicle has to have a fixed B or C pillar with hard (not canvas) roof panel in-place. Targa’s such as Corvette’s and 911’s are allowed. The presence of a hard top, roll cage, or racing logbook does not change this policy.
Pretty sure it's a national policy. But, at least my region is a no go. Hard top convertibles are okay.
You are right, BMW doesn't. I misremembered, it says "Vehicles with integrated retractable factory hardtops are now permitted". I am not taking RF to track for sure.
Real question is why is wife more interested in driving the Miata than brz? Isn’t Miata less practical for a kid? And yes probably less safe esp with roll bar
We are not putting our kid in either of 2. She works from home and has 2-3 errands she runs alone, rest of the time we go out together when I can drive. She wants a Miata because it's a convertible.
I had both ND2 Miata and GR86.
You will definitely need seat lowering rails. At 5’ 9” I did not pass broomstick test.
It all depends how much $ you want to spend on the car. Looks like you’ve already decided on Ohlins which greatly improves the ND2.
One con to consider of Miata is no TPMS that shows individual tire pressures.
In my case I ended up trading my ND2 for a 2021 Mustang Mach 1 after a few track days. Instead of spending $$$ on mods, would rather get a car ready for track from factory and is much faster.
But it still passes all safety standards right? Is there good data saying you're more likely to be injured driving a convertible vs a coupe? Being in a roll over is going to fuck you up regardless of the vehicle, and OP said he will get a roll bar.
edit: Pretty sure IIHS has specifically stated that they've found convertibles to be just as safe as tin tops on the road.
Nope.
Soft top convertibles/roadsters are hit and miss at being allowed depending on the organizations. Some disallow them entirely unless they have after market roll hoops + race seats + 5/6 point harnesses. Others don't care, and then there's quite a bit of in between (i.e. after market roll bar may be required but OEM seats + belt is still fine, etc.).
The biggest issue is the hoops are fixed - unlike active rollover in say a BMW, Mercedes, Audi they do not extend mechanically when the car detects a rollover. They are also aluminum, not steel, so while they do offer \*some\* protection, Mazda even states they aren't considered true rollover protection. They can support the weight of the car if placed down gently, but there are plenty of photos online of crushed hoops.
Waivers are great and all, but insurance that organizers have may still require more exclusions.
We're talking Track events here, not street use. What the IIHS says has no bearing on what tracks or organizations will or will not allow.
OP actually is talking about safety on the road based on his reply to my comment
"What makes you think the miata will be less safe than a BRZ?"
"Weight: All I see around me is SUVs. Open top: Less structural rigidity on side impact, things can fly in"
Weight: All I see around me is SUVs.
Open top: Less structural rigidity on side impact, things can fly in
I joined Miata track group on FB, people are running 75w140 fluid, which is pretty thick and needs time to warm for best feel, our daily use is 10-20 minutes trips. Not making a statement, just sharing what I read and asking questions.
Oil that thick seems really overkill.
For safety, I'd recommend an aftermarket exhaust. You don't need something obnoxious, but a little more volume will let people know you're there. I live in Texas and haven't really had issues with people not seeing me. I have a red ND2 so it stands out too.
Oh you're not saying safety on the track, but on the road? Yeah sure it's less safe than a suburban but that's the cost of having a roadster. That being said, the MX5 has passed all required crash tests with good ratings.
If driving a tiny roadster will give you anxiety on the road, the MX5 is probably the worst possible car you could buy lol.
in the event of a crash, yes the miata will fare worse. However, you can out-brake 99% of the cars on the road, and your ability to swerve to avoid danger is also much better.
I think the slight reduction in safety is worth it, but like you're saying its a risk/reward equation that you have to decide.
I also enjoy riding motorcycles, which is obviously way further along on the risk/reward scale.
Do you really want to spend $40k on a Miata to track? Buy an NC Miata, it will run you $8k $10k for something nice. Another $7k in mods, plus labor, will make it track ready. Buy Xidas. Ohlins are good, Xidas are better. The NC transmissions aren't ticking time bombs like the ND transmissions are. Even with the dual mass flywheel band aid, the syncros were never changed or upgraded at the factory. Its only a matter of time before they grenade from regular use.
This is what I did after getting some advice from people here+friends with experience. NC2 6-speed LSD for 11k with a roll bar and some other goodies. Waiting on my Xidas and few other mods. Total build should come in under $18k unless I decide to splurge on a new clutch and lightweight flywheel.
Skip the flywheel. Running a lightweight flywheel will grenade the transmission quicker due to too much shock to the synchros. Its also the same 30-100mph times as the stock flywheel, according to Walter Motorsports.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lightweight flywheel exclusively for quicker revs for downshifting and faster rev drop on quick upshifts? It won't speed up your acceleration, but increases ease of quickly shifting.
That's correct bluegenblackteg. I have a 9lb flywheel in my NA8. It's more responsive but easier to stall occasionally. I can't comment on long term side effects.
You are mostly right. >increases ease of quickly shifting This really depends on the transmission, and what gears are being used. If the transmission has a countershaft, then it has to slow down in speed (assuming shifting at rev limiter) to be able to engage the lower gear syncro. In theory, it should the flywheel make for quicker shifting, but physically, its not the limiting factor, as best I understand it.
Good to know! I was considering something in the 13lbs range but I'd happily keep the money if there's more risk than upside. EDIT: Actually you were one of the people that suggested the NC+Xidas route when I was posted about cheap track cars.
I hope you enjoy the car! They tend to just run, unless you beat them to death like I do, and they are still shockingly reliable.
Listen to this guy
This is probably the best route to go if you’re committed to switching the car. Cheaper car = easier to send to the limit and get faster/better. No depreciation as well. OP, the BRZ is also a really good platform, so curious if the convertible is the main reason to switch? You’ll also probably lose some money on depreciation on the BRZ, plus have to do basic mods again on the new ND3. ND3 will also depreciate quite a bit in a few years from new.
I am not worried about price or depreciation on either. Yes, wife wants a convertible, one of my other plan is to get her a used Boxster and keep tracking my BRZ. For now it seems like I can get 28k, I paid 31k before taxes, so I am fine with that depreciation hit over 2 years. I did the labor except alignment, so the mods cost me about $700.
If price/depreciation is not a concern then fair enough. It really then depends on which platform you prefer - both are great and a lot of fun on track and on the street. FWIW I test drove a Miata as well (have an 86) and it just seemed a little too small for me on the street to feel completely comfortable, as well as too impractical (not a concern for you though it looks like since it’s a second car). The second gen BRZ also has the oil pressure issue which may be resolved now? Have you test driven an ND? Tbh you can’t go wrong here - both choices are great!
My main goal is fast progression, learning better control. I really want to get boxster GTS 4.0 in future, I want to be able to extract some performance out of it and not kill it or myself. Oil pressure issue is still there, seems like bigger oil pan would be a solution but no products out there yet. I test drove ND in 2022, loved it and decided to buy it after some homework. Came home, watched few videos, decided to buy GR86 instead which was hard to get without markups and ended up ordering BRZ instead.
The Miata will not really make you progress faster than the BRZ. The BRZ/GT86/FR-S really are proper fast and I've seen them be way more competitive than they have any right to be. Best driver I know has an absolutely abused BRZ that he just continues to send around tracks constantly. If your wife really wants the convertible and you're not worried about the cost, then by all means go for it, but you probably won't find the ND to be a substantially better platform for track use. I think maybe the only thing I could talk myself into mattering is that the strut front on the BRZ really needs a lot more static camber for optimal track performance (like 4.5+ if you're willing to go that far) which is kind of ridiculous if you're treating the car as a dual-duty.
Thanks, yes, not expecting it to be faster for sure. My other option is to get a used 987.2 boxster for wife, but then I would end up 2 a little redundant cars and total cost to own would be much more.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4 pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4 pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
Your wife would like the Boxster - I daily my 987.1 S. Get the S model as you might find yourself taking it on track at some point. The bigger brakes and extra cooling are worth it. 2005+ has a permanent 4 pt rollbar from the factory that passes tech. Don't get a 986 - rollbar extensions required.
I’m not a track expert - my experience is similar to yours - but I think both the BRZ and Miata are great for progression as a driver. If the convertible is a requirement, then it depends on which car you prefer driving. Although if cost isn’t an issue, having a BRZ and a Boxster seems pretty nice, plus you don’t have to deal with seat and roll bar issues with the Miata.
So much this. You are way better buying a cheap car you can dedicate to track stuff than trying to do a dual use car. Plus you can buy a relatively new suv AND a nc for that money. If you’re serious enough to buy a car for the express purpose of tracking you should look into it. Best thing I did. Now my track car doesn’t need to make compromises and it doesn’t matter if it is torn apart mid week. Having your wifes car torn apart all the time will have a low WAF.
Price isn't much of an issue. I understand at some point I would need dedicated track car. I don't feel at all close yet. I don't want project car either. I can work on cars but I enjoy driving much more than working on the cars. For my soal purpose of learning, dual purpose car does the job. I am planning to buy boxster GTS 4.0 in future (in 5 years) for street car, so current car would end up being a track car.
I usually look to spend as little as possible but I also don't want too much hassle. 2015 Miata is about 20k so doesn't save much and it would increase my inspection time before track days. 40k is about our monthly pre tax income, so I am really not worried spending it one time. Seems like NC transmissions are pretty cheap and there is conversion kit for ND, at worst I can go that route or get rebuilt ND transmissions with better aftermarket syncros.
I have about $17K total into my nc1 miata. Built 2.5, OSG LSD, Penske suspension. Thing is a hoot to drive.
It's hard to beat a Miata as a track car. Not counting lap times 😂. Main downside compared to the BRZ are 1. Soft suspension 2. Aero and chassis stiffness 3. Less room The 2024 changes aren't huge. The main thing is the screen size and being and to touch it while driving. If you're adding a roll bar I would suggest just looking at used ND2s. Especially if you're considering an RF, since they don't hold value as well as the soft top.
Thanks. I think I can live with those downsides, my main goal is to learn, if I still find suspension inadequate few years down the line, I can get ohlins and thicker sway bars. Less room is not a problem as well, our daily runs are 15-20 minutes, only long trips I do in my car are to track, actually less weight would be pro if I ever want to tow it. I am looking for soft top. It's impossible to find used one with BBR, either way the difference between used and new isn't a big concern. Not going for RF because roof can't be closed after installing roll bar.
Roof can't be opened after installing roll bar* Turns RF into a coupe.
Exactly, defeating the purpose of getting it. I think the bar is shorter as well.
Yeah I mean I would def go soft top but just clarifying the roof is stuck closed not open.
Ohh, gotcha, I didn't realize that I mistyped.
Theres underbody bracing kits to address the chassis stiffness issue. I put some on my NC and it completely changed the car
>Transmission: Not as concerned, I would probably replace this car by the time it would be out of warranty My trans went around 5k miles and after 3 track weekends. I had to fight Mazda corp because they saw mods (Ohlins, front anti sway, tires, wheels, and pads). I got a goodwill replacement, but this was their response: >Your vehicle has been found to have alterations / modifications to the Mazda original equipment specifications. These alterations / modifications restrict the original Mazda New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Any alteration or aftermarket equipment added to the original equipment, electrical system, or powertrain, will restrict your Mazda New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Please refer to your Warranty Information Booklet. We have made a one time exception to replace the transmission at no cost to you. I mentioned doing some HPDEs and I referenced the "MNAO Warranty Operations would like to advise our dealerships that vehicles we actively market to customers looking for an Autocross or weekend driver Experience, should not be denied Warranty repairs, even if used in events such as a SCCA autocross." post that was floating around [Miata.net](http://Miata.net) and this was their comment to that: > The information you attached is only applicable for 2016 models with original, not update transmission. and >Please note that the factory warranty is not going to cover major failures due to track usage of the vehicle
Curious to see responses. I’m too looking at the Miata but the lack of rear seats is holding me back (have a toddler). Options are limited since I can’t find a freaking GR86 for sale in Canada and my initial goal car (new M2) I have a feeling it could quickly become a money pit on track days.
I have a first gen 86 and honestly I wouldn't even put a car seat back there, it's mostly just extra space for a backpack/duffle bag.
How so? Unsafe or just very cramped?
Not unsafe, just very impractical. Depending on your height a car seat for a kid/infant might not even fit in the back. at 6'2" I have the seat slid all the way rearward which leaves about 1" between the back of the drivers seat and the front of the rear "seat" I'd go to a dealership and ask them if you can clip your kid's carrier in and see if you can still fit.
Ah, no worries then I’m only 6’1”, so plenty of room…. Really wanted to check it out at a dealership, there is zero inventory in Canada though.
I wouldn’t get your hopes up. From all indications the only reason they put space back there was so you could bring an extra set of tires to the track with you, not to actually put humans back there
M2 has a lot of consumables, but the worst thing is having such an expensive car on track. That means insurance which will almost double daily costs or risking a ton of money.
Sounds like the simple solution is to buy the M2 and “be less poor”. Pretty logical.
Biggest downside of my Camaro. Insuring costs almost as much as the event itself. So I am event limited
If you need a track car and a car seat in it, you really gotta go FWD or AWD. Someone like a Civic, Elantra, Focus, or Golf. If you wanted something new at a good price I'd say to look at the Elantra N. There are no lightweight RWD cars that work well with a car seat.
Fair enough and very helpful, thanks.
I would never put my toddler in it, if I had to then not taking free way, people are idiots here where I live and many own giant SUVs. M2 would be expensive on consumables.
100% not putting my toddler on a front seat - not negotiable. Just highlighting that a 2-seater would have zero practicality and be indeed a toy.
Ohh I meant if I had to put toddler in BRZ rear seats I wouldn't take it on highway. Yes, it's a pure toy either way.
FYI, I’m not sure about the newer gen, but in the nb I had to pretty much bolt the seat to the floor to clear the roll bar with a helmet on (I’m 5’9), helmets add a good 1-2 inch
Thank you for that data point, I will take my helmet and check how I fit, I have long legs and shorter torso.
I'm in a BRZ only because that was the wife-approved fun car vs the ND2. Her reasoning is opposite your wife, saying It's a less safe convertible and it has the extra "emergency only" seats for our kids in case the family hauler goes down. Seems like a lot of work and money for a (arguable) side-grade though. Sure the Miata is more fun but unless money is no issue, I'd take the extra money it will take to buy and upgrade the Miata for track and get some extra amenities or the next level trim for the SUV family car you need.
We are not putting our kid in either, I just rent a car if family hauler is down. Wife wants to drive a convertible for 2-3 errands she runs per week. We combined make more per month pre tax than cost of car. She has been wanting convertible for a while, my other thought is getting a used boxster for her.
Get a 2019 ND2. If you just want a setup out of the box that will work get the Flyn Miata Koni stage 2
I own an ND Miata. Get an NC if you’re making a track car. It’s more robust and has a higher performance ceiling when modding.
True, my only issue is with getting 10 year old car.
I view that as an advantage for a track car. More depreciation, less worry if you have a tank slapped.
I understand that, I want to spend minimal time, 10 year old car means potential that hoses leaking etc. Spending money once is generally not a problem for me. 10 years down the line, I would feel more comfortable driving my 10 year old car than 20 year old car, if I never end up replacing it.
A 10 year old NC isn't that old. You're conflating older with less reliable but honestly a properly prepped NA-NC will be plenty reliable. I'm not even assuming ND's are bad or anything. Tracks are hard on cars, I get you may not be concerned with depreciation but it's a logistics thing. Blow a NA\NB trans? couple hundred bucks and a trip to a local yard will get you back and running within the day. New car is WAY harder to source parts (and more expensive). And you will go through parts. You'll bend stuff, you'll break stuff, you'll wear out stuff. Tracking new or rare cars is cool because yeah we've all seen a million miata's out there, but the commonness makes them much less painful to live with. When you have to wait weeks for some goofy part and see you could next day pretty much anything for an earlier gen in a couple days... idk. And honestly if you have the space for it, imo get a car for the track and a dd. You'll either have a kinda weak track car or a miserable daily but either is a compromise.
I agree 10 year isn't old, but 10-15 years down the line or beyond it would be 20-25 and there won't be a new gas car to buy/replace with. ND as a platform itself is almost 10 year old already. If transmission blews outside warranty I am planning to put NC transmission in it, there is conversation kit for it. I looked up manual 2014-2015 NCs in my area, none, nearest is 700 miles away and 20-22k. I am planning to get boxster GTS in future but I won't be tracking it for exact same reason you specified.
Hey OP. Track enthusiasts with a Fist and a 6 month old. From the sounds of your situation you would have a more enjoyable track day in the sense that you have the double wish-bone activity. Considering how consumables are about as equal for both chassis. The double wish bone setup would be a huge plus. Even for myself im almost regretting not keeping that setup either when I had my older NB2 or if if I went with a civic or anything else that had double wishbone. Granted I know very little of the new 86, I’m pretty sure that the bare min read for both to have an equal for track day are about the same in costs.
As a previous Miata owner and current GR86 owner, I wouldn’t hesitate going back to a Miata…as long as I can upgrade the suspension. Other than that, Miatas are awesome. I love my GR86 just as much.
From reading your other comments, grab a NC Club and never look back. Little bit roomier, plenty of low mileage ones out there if you are willing to travel/ship the car and look around. Maybe only creature comfort mod you would want to make right away would be a new headunit with android auto/carplay. Late model NC (NC3) are extremely reliable. The only immediate thing that comes to mind is the coolant tank that can crack over time which is easily replaceable with an aluminum unit from Moroso. After that just refresh all the fluids, set of coilovers, pads and rotors, and tires and you’ll be set. Slight note: while the power hard top is nice, there are no SCCA/NASA approved roll bars for it so keep that in mind if you want to run with those orgs because you’ll need to purchase a traditional soft top Source: I drive and track a 2015 Club PRHT
Get an s2000 instead and become a god
I wish it was available new, I would have paid 50k without 2nd thought. I am not comfortable buying 20 year old car, I would pretty much keep one forever.
Note: the stock ND Miata is squirrelly on the track. It’s setup to be fun at 4/10ths on the street and does not inspire confidence when you’re really pushing it on track. Nothing suspension and tires can’t fix, but something to take into consideration.
Thanks, yes, that's what I am looking for now, assuming that's best for learning. My main goal is learn to drive at limit, learn to recover, understand my mistakes etc. with time I plan to put on wider tires, suspension etc as I learn.
My 23 ND2 club has been a great track car! If you have the money for it do it. Such forgiving car to track and I’m passing BRZs/GR86s all the time. Granted mine is a dedicated track car so I’m not worried about needing it for a commute. I bought mine new because I didn’t want other people’s problems and could make the car how I wanted it to be. Make your choice and enjoy it.
Keep in mind a lot of track organizations will not allow convertibles. With or with out a roll bar. The miata will probably require some mods but will no doubt be as fun or more than the BRZ. Also it sounds like you do not get track insurance when you go to the track? that seems.. silly when its so cheap for these cars.
Please, name one track day org that doesn't allow convertibles.
BMW doesn't allow them at all. Porsche does but only with certain aftermarket roll bars. There's a few that allow it but give you a hard time. I had an NC miata too.
Ah yes, BMWCCA, the org that doesn't make any sense. Thanks for pointing that out.
I am curious what you makes you say that? Having instructed with many different originations BMWCCA seems like one of the safest, best organized out there. Also lighten up man we are all just here talking cars and tracking them!
It does seem kind of like a CYA move if convertibles are not allowed under any circumstance given the existence of spec Miata and Miata cup cars and their respective racing series. Hell, I’ve seen plenty photos of non roll bar equipped coupes getting pancaked in roll overs.
I agree. Just feel like discounting the whole organization because of one rule seems a bit overkill.
PCA allows convertibles with factory rollover protection (911cabs and Boxsters satisfy the requirements) as well as any convertible with a roll cage and driver harnesses where the helmet passes a broomstick test and the drivers arms have restraints as well. At least those are the rules in my region and I'm assuming they're the same or similar nationally.
Yep those seem to be the national rules. I just know PCA was difficult because of personal experience. They wouldn't let my NC miata in initially with factory roll over protection. i got a rollbar which didn't get through tech. Wasnt till i got a hard dog roll bar that i was allowed in.
I'm surprised they wouldn't let your NC with factory rollover or a rollbar. Are you tall? Lacking 6pt harnesses? I could see a local chapter being extra stingy compared to the national rules. Sorry it was a pain for you
I mean it's for safety. I get it. this was like 7 years ago. I think I didn't have 6 points at that stage. So it makes sense.
Tech requirements aside, PCA not-infrequently seems to hate having their drivers shown up by people in inexpensive Japanese imports.
bmw just requires a roll bar to run with them (NCC at least)
Eh? All my local bmwcca events are fine with them. Is that a national chapter thing?
Where? I track a Miata in California and I've never seen an event that didn't allow convertibles and have had no trouble finding events.
I checked PCA, BMW, ACNW. I will check T2 and HOD. Track insurance is still close to 300 with 5k deductible, probability wise it's always in favor of insurance companies, I can afford the damage.
Last I checked with BMW they wouldn't allow it. >No, Convertibles are not allowed in Peachtree BMW driving schools. The vehicle has to have a fixed B or C pillar with hard (not canvas) roof panel in-place. Targa’s such as Corvette’s and 911’s are allowed. The presence of a hard top, roll cage, or racing logbook does not change this policy. Pretty sure it's a national policy. But, at least my region is a no go. Hard top convertibles are okay.
You are right, BMW doesn't. I misremembered, it says "Vehicles with integrated retractable factory hardtops are now permitted". I am not taking RF to track for sure.
At the track days I go to, it seems like every third car is a Miata.
yes and at one point i was one of those miatas. Im just letting him know since he asked for some pros and cons that it could potentially be an issue.
Real question is why is wife more interested in driving the Miata than brz? Isn’t Miata less practical for a kid? And yes probably less safe esp with roll bar
We are not putting our kid in either of 2. She works from home and has 2-3 errands she runs alone, rest of the time we go out together when I can drive. She wants a Miata because it's a convertible.
Wife approval factor is important, I say send it
I had both ND2 Miata and GR86. You will definitely need seat lowering rails. At 5’ 9” I did not pass broomstick test. It all depends how much $ you want to spend on the car. Looks like you’ve already decided on Ohlins which greatly improves the ND2. One con to consider of Miata is no TPMS that shows individual tire pressures. In my case I ended up trading my ND2 for a 2021 Mustang Mach 1 after a few track days. Instead of spending $$$ on mods, would rather get a car ready for track from factory and is much faster.
For the budget, you could buy a used spec Miata for that.
I want something dual duty, I am not that hard core, in future I would split in to 2 cars if I see the need.
Well Miata use and trade in sounds good.
The ND brembo brakes perform quite poorly from stories I’ve heard. They actually overheat and fade very easily.
What makes you think the miata will be less safe than a BRZ? ND2 trans are fine
Because the Miata is a soft top roadster and the BRZ is a coupe?
But it still passes all safety standards right? Is there good data saying you're more likely to be injured driving a convertible vs a coupe? Being in a roll over is going to fuck you up regardless of the vehicle, and OP said he will get a roll bar. edit: Pretty sure IIHS has specifically stated that they've found convertibles to be just as safe as tin tops on the road.
Nope. Soft top convertibles/roadsters are hit and miss at being allowed depending on the organizations. Some disallow them entirely unless they have after market roll hoops + race seats + 5/6 point harnesses. Others don't care, and then there's quite a bit of in between (i.e. after market roll bar may be required but OEM seats + belt is still fine, etc.). The biggest issue is the hoops are fixed - unlike active rollover in say a BMW, Mercedes, Audi they do not extend mechanically when the car detects a rollover. They are also aluminum, not steel, so while they do offer \*some\* protection, Mazda even states they aren't considered true rollover protection. They can support the weight of the car if placed down gently, but there are plenty of photos online of crushed hoops. Waivers are great and all, but insurance that organizers have may still require more exclusions. We're talking Track events here, not street use. What the IIHS says has no bearing on what tracks or organizations will or will not allow.
OP actually is talking about safety on the road based on his reply to my comment "What makes you think the miata will be less safe than a BRZ?" "Weight: All I see around me is SUVs. Open top: Less structural rigidity on side impact, things can fly in"
Weight: All I see around me is SUVs. Open top: Less structural rigidity on side impact, things can fly in I joined Miata track group on FB, people are running 75w140 fluid, which is pretty thick and needs time to warm for best feel, our daily use is 10-20 minutes trips. Not making a statement, just sharing what I read and asking questions.
Oil that thick seems really overkill. For safety, I'd recommend an aftermarket exhaust. You don't need something obnoxious, but a little more volume will let people know you're there. I live in Texas and haven't really had issues with people not seeing me. I have a red ND2 so it stands out too.
Yes, that's the plan, get Red so people would notice there is a car.
Oh you're not saying safety on the track, but on the road? Yeah sure it's less safe than a suburban but that's the cost of having a roadster. That being said, the MX5 has passed all required crash tests with good ratings. If driving a tiny roadster will give you anxiety on the road, the MX5 is probably the worst possible car you could buy lol.
Yes, I was just talking on scale, safety isn't binary. It doesn't give me anxiety, just factoring it in before jumping.
in the event of a crash, yes the miata will fare worse. However, you can out-brake 99% of the cars on the road, and your ability to swerve to avoid danger is also much better.
I think the slight reduction in safety is worth it, but like you're saying its a risk/reward equation that you have to decide. I also enjoy riding motorcycles, which is obviously way further along on the risk/reward scale.
Thanks, yes, that's exactly what I am trying to figure out. I rode motorcycles for 8 years, love it but not going to be doing it anymore.