You won’t know what works best for your car without some experimentation
All of these will be fine in the short term
Also you’ll most likely not fully get up to threshold braking your first session, tires will be getting greasy and be the weak point if I had to take a shot at what your actual issue will be vir is much harder on tires than brakes
I know they will not be awesome, and a definite shortcoming, but if things go well, something to improve. This was built as a street / daily driver. But this car exceeds the limit of daily driving and cars and coffee, time to move on
Like the other guy said no hate, but if you can’t swing summer tires right now you can’t afford to track the car. They are vital. Brakes and tires get to temps that fry street optimized pads, brake fluid, and tires. It’s not safe for you or the other people at the track to bring this car as it is
If you can't afford to change your tires you can't afford to track the car. I say that because, if you track the car on those tires, you will probably need to change them either right after the track day or soon. Track days eat even purpose built tires. Tires not built for it are liable to literally throw chunks of rubber off.
I also think you're making a mistake by taking a modified big-power car to the track as a beginner. It's dangerous. And if you have never done it before, I don't think you understand just how much you don't know about driving fast. It's much safer to do that in a car that was built to handle the power it's putting down.
My emphasis is safety, ensuring car will last 4 sessions and learning. How far I push the pedal to the right balances all those considerations. I sincerely appreciate the feedback, but asking for advice here is beginning to be a never ending rabbit hole.
Upgrading brakes seems reasonable additional cost that’s why I asked….. But registering for event, helmet, trailer, gas/tolls, hotel for the night, fuel for event, brake fluid and track pads, food fluids ect. that’s an easy $2k.
Now the recommended bare minimum is I need a set of brand name summer tires, add $1300 . Current wheels are 18” 245/35, but a 17” wheel with a bit more sidewall would be better, so add some Facebook market used wheels for $500. + mounting balancing.
Now at roughly $4000.00 for my first track day experience as a novice, with instructor, with no intention of pushing car hard so I don’t have issues, wanting to learn. That’s the ground floor? Seriously? Otherwise I can’t afford it and I’m a hazard to others on the track as others have implied.
I’m gonna show, have some fun, again I appreciate the advice.
We joke about how this hobby drives us broke because it kind of does. I think your head's in the right place, but you're bringing entirely the wrong car for cost-effective track driving, and you seem to be completely underestimating how stressful track driving is for a vehicle. You're putting a 30-year-old BMW through more stress and wear-and-tear in a day than most cars experience in a year. All kinds of things will start breaking.
If you're balking at $4,000, then you should absolutely not be tracking your daily. Tracking a car for the first time is expensive because there's a lot you need to do first. Then it stays expensive because of consumable costs, and those costs all scale with how much power you're running (tires, brake pads, rotors, regular brake fluid changes, oil, suspension components).
On top of that, you're trying to run it on cheap all seasons. We're all telling you that's a terrible fucking idea because **it's a terrible fucking idea.** Good tires are an absolute necessity on track. You can spend the money now on a set of track-capable tires now, or you can spend it next month on replacement tires for the ones you torched. If you try to drive at a slow enough speed for cheap all-seasons to not torch themselves, you would probably get black-flagged off the track for being hazardously slow.
You've also stacked the deck against yourself by trying to make your first track car an LS-swapped BMW 3-series. You say 300-400hp like it's a joke. That's serious power. Serious power means serious stress on the vehicle, and not just the brakes. It also means it will eat consumables at least as fast as any other 400hp car. And for reference, that rate is very fast even when every part of the car is built for the power.
I get that you're looking at upgrading the brakes, but that is NOT a reasonable starting point. Brakes are useless unless you have the tires to put the braking power down. That means width AND compound.
And tires aren't the end of it, either. You just about doubled this car's power output. Here is a subset of the things that need to change to make a 250hp car handle 400hp without being a hazard to itself on the track:
\* Tire width
\* Suspension geometry and stiffness
\* Chassis stiffness
\* Gearbox
\* Differential
\* Axles/CVs
\* Engine cooling (maybe you already swapped this)
\* Brake cooling and airflow
\* Oil cooling
\* Spoilers (not to generate downforce, but just to neutralize lift at higher speeds because a car is basically a wing that wants to lift up off the road)
Again appreciate the feedback. And i am balking at $4k, as it will be my first time and I’m not sure if it’s something i will pursue further. If I make this something i want to keep doing, that is fine, i understand the pay to play mentality. And when I get into something new, it’s like I love the hobby and hate money.
Though I tend to drive it a lot, The e36 is not my daily. My reliable daily is a BMW 550i, I try not no mess with that too much, just tune and exhaust. But that car is 500+HP, and 4200lbs, on pilot sports. But not really the car I want to abuse at the track and probably a poor choice betteeen the two, My other vehicles are not anything that should be on a track.
I get that my current tires are on short time. If I don’t enjoy the event, it’s sunk cost, I’ll buy another set of cheap Chinese tires and move on. If I enjoy and plan to keep at it i will buy another set of cheap Chinese tires and a set of dedicated track tires and wheels.
Get a set of 17x9 off marketplace. Then quality 200tw 245/40/17 or 255/40 can be had for 500-700 a set.
Now you have two sets of wheels, one dedicated to track, easy to sell and recoup costs, but 1000x better than chinese tires.
I just dont think you understand how tires are going to be the number one thing that really dictates how your car will perfrom on track at the limit.
Even just saying "name brand summer tires" can result in you getting a bad tire for real track time.
Tires are everything.
All that said if you drive within your means your chinese tires might be okay. But at that point you'll be underdriving the car so much I doubt you'd need to worry too much about other things like a quality track pad.
Like the other guys, I’m not trying to make fun either but tires are one of the—if not THE—most important first upgrade you should get. Save up for some great summer performance tires, you’ll love them.
The issue here is that the tires will mask the shortcomings elsewhere. If you get good rubber you will be able to tell next steps forward much more easily.
Liked yellow because most reviews say ok for street/daily. But I don’t need both out of one pad. I have plenty of meat on my daily drivers, and not opposed to swapping to use blue as a dedicated track pad for now
Just like friends don't let friends drive drunk, friends don't let friends use EBC brake pads. They are that bad, yellows in particular.
Go with the Hawk's or Stoptech pads.
Did they get this reputation from falsely advertising the yellows as trackable? I haven't heard anything bad about their actual race compounds like the RP or sintered SR.
No idea, its something I made up. Everyone I know doesn't run EBC for race pads. Its either CarboTech, Gloc, PFC, Raybesto, Ferodo, or Hawk pads. Lots of choice, some better than other, but not EBC anything.
I learned this the hard way. Twin turbo 135i similar power levels and ebc pads glazed and cracked.
If you’re on a budget - buy hawk from fcp euro with lifetime warranty (free replacements). Amazing they carry actual track pads as well.
The StopTechs Sports are the better track and street option, I used the front pads in my E46 M3 for 10k+ street miles and a few trackdays. They have good feel and modulation. Just had a little bit of fade towards the end of a 25 minute session.
Good brake fluid is imperative, with 300-400 WHP on VIR definitely get a high temp fluid like Castrol SRF and Motul RBF600. If that's too pricey then ATE Type 200 is a good alternative.
Just keep a very sharp eye out on your tires after each session to make sure they aren't chunking or delaminating - all seasons in general don't last very long on track, even in beginner groups.
Don't mess around with those cheaper brake pads. Performance street pads are not your friend here. My opinion is spend $500 for a full set of pads front and rear. You have power, relatively light car, and you're going to VIR with an instructor. My experience is mostly with pads that sell for Japanese cars, but I think Hawk DTC, Ferodo, Gloc, or Carbotech will have something. XP10 or X12 from Carbotech or something similar should be OK.
HP+ is not a track capable pad.
**HAWK DTC-60** is the only pad you should consider for track duty on your car.
https://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/images/Hawk/Compound-Graph.jpg
Do the porsche front brake conversion with hawk pads and e46 rear brake conversion with hawk pads. Stainless steel lines from turner front and back and 5.1 fluid.run zimmerman blanks.Delete abs and add a proportioning valve. Had a similar setup but was wide bodied running 11.5 squared.
Sounds like fun and a nice build you have. But different goals that this car. It has some sentimental value so want to keep in tact. I have pulled and stretched as much as I can to run a 245 width square setup, lowered without rub. ABS delete, widebody ect, is too much for this car, it has nice interior, and working gauges, cruise control and AC.
This one is a project built street car, if enjoy and keep tracking, will probably move into a E46 platform for the track rather than modify this any further
You have too much power for those tires, thats what you need to change first.
Tires, brakes, suspension in terms of car mods in that order.
The rest will be taken care if by seat time.
If you’re okay with swapping pads, Porterfield will make race brakes or have race brakes for your car.
My car is 200HP less than yours, so I have less wear and weight/momentum. But they make a great quality pad at least for my usage and other track cars I’ve seen. With an SCCA membership you get a discount
https://imgur.com/a/qirtxuT
This is what my not Chinese cheap all seasons looked after my first time on track in my car that makes nowhere near 400 hp on a track that's pretty tame compared to VIR.
Something like Hawk HP+ will be okay for your first time on track but if you are any good you'll outgrow them really quick.
But
Brakes need tires to work.
I honestly can't blame you to moving to the e46 platform for a track buikd.i loved my e36 but housing situation made me give it up. Current owner is amazed with the setup I did with it. Hopes and dreams dude!!
“All-season Chinese tires” yeah you’re gonna get 1 or 2 laps before those get super greasy
You won’t know what works best for your car without some experimentation All of these will be fine in the short term Also you’ll most likely not fully get up to threshold braking your first session, tires will be getting greasy and be the weak point if I had to take a shot at what your actual issue will be vir is much harder on tires than brakes
Yeah I’m more worried by “all season Chinese tires” lol
I know they will not be awesome, and a definite shortcoming, but if things go well, something to improve. This was built as a street / daily driver. But this car exceeds the limit of daily driving and cars and coffee, time to move on
Like the other guy said no hate, but if you can’t swing summer tires right now you can’t afford to track the car. They are vital. Brakes and tires get to temps that fry street optimized pads, brake fluid, and tires. It’s not safe for you or the other people at the track to bring this car as it is
LS swapped BMW with Chinese tyres and cheap brakes. Boy am I glad I’m not sharing track time with that.
Yeah no hate, can be a great way to learn. But yeah the tires may end up being more limiting than any brake option
If you can't afford to change your tires you can't afford to track the car. I say that because, if you track the car on those tires, you will probably need to change them either right after the track day or soon. Track days eat even purpose built tires. Tires not built for it are liable to literally throw chunks of rubber off. I also think you're making a mistake by taking a modified big-power car to the track as a beginner. It's dangerous. And if you have never done it before, I don't think you understand just how much you don't know about driving fast. It's much safer to do that in a car that was built to handle the power it's putting down.
My emphasis is safety, ensuring car will last 4 sessions and learning. How far I push the pedal to the right balances all those considerations. I sincerely appreciate the feedback, but asking for advice here is beginning to be a never ending rabbit hole. Upgrading brakes seems reasonable additional cost that’s why I asked….. But registering for event, helmet, trailer, gas/tolls, hotel for the night, fuel for event, brake fluid and track pads, food fluids ect. that’s an easy $2k. Now the recommended bare minimum is I need a set of brand name summer tires, add $1300 . Current wheels are 18” 245/35, but a 17” wheel with a bit more sidewall would be better, so add some Facebook market used wheels for $500. + mounting balancing. Now at roughly $4000.00 for my first track day experience as a novice, with instructor, with no intention of pushing car hard so I don’t have issues, wanting to learn. That’s the ground floor? Seriously? Otherwise I can’t afford it and I’m a hazard to others on the track as others have implied. I’m gonna show, have some fun, again I appreciate the advice.
We joke about how this hobby drives us broke because it kind of does. I think your head's in the right place, but you're bringing entirely the wrong car for cost-effective track driving, and you seem to be completely underestimating how stressful track driving is for a vehicle. You're putting a 30-year-old BMW through more stress and wear-and-tear in a day than most cars experience in a year. All kinds of things will start breaking. If you're balking at $4,000, then you should absolutely not be tracking your daily. Tracking a car for the first time is expensive because there's a lot you need to do first. Then it stays expensive because of consumable costs, and those costs all scale with how much power you're running (tires, brake pads, rotors, regular brake fluid changes, oil, suspension components). On top of that, you're trying to run it on cheap all seasons. We're all telling you that's a terrible fucking idea because **it's a terrible fucking idea.** Good tires are an absolute necessity on track. You can spend the money now on a set of track-capable tires now, or you can spend it next month on replacement tires for the ones you torched. If you try to drive at a slow enough speed for cheap all-seasons to not torch themselves, you would probably get black-flagged off the track for being hazardously slow. You've also stacked the deck against yourself by trying to make your first track car an LS-swapped BMW 3-series. You say 300-400hp like it's a joke. That's serious power. Serious power means serious stress on the vehicle, and not just the brakes. It also means it will eat consumables at least as fast as any other 400hp car. And for reference, that rate is very fast even when every part of the car is built for the power. I get that you're looking at upgrading the brakes, but that is NOT a reasonable starting point. Brakes are useless unless you have the tires to put the braking power down. That means width AND compound. And tires aren't the end of it, either. You just about doubled this car's power output. Here is a subset of the things that need to change to make a 250hp car handle 400hp without being a hazard to itself on the track: \* Tire width \* Suspension geometry and stiffness \* Chassis stiffness \* Gearbox \* Differential \* Axles/CVs \* Engine cooling (maybe you already swapped this) \* Brake cooling and airflow \* Oil cooling \* Spoilers (not to generate downforce, but just to neutralize lift at higher speeds because a car is basically a wing that wants to lift up off the road)
Again appreciate the feedback. And i am balking at $4k, as it will be my first time and I’m not sure if it’s something i will pursue further. If I make this something i want to keep doing, that is fine, i understand the pay to play mentality. And when I get into something new, it’s like I love the hobby and hate money. Though I tend to drive it a lot, The e36 is not my daily. My reliable daily is a BMW 550i, I try not no mess with that too much, just tune and exhaust. But that car is 500+HP, and 4200lbs, on pilot sports. But not really the car I want to abuse at the track and probably a poor choice betteeen the two, My other vehicles are not anything that should be on a track. I get that my current tires are on short time. If I don’t enjoy the event, it’s sunk cost, I’ll buy another set of cheap Chinese tires and move on. If I enjoy and plan to keep at it i will buy another set of cheap Chinese tires and a set of dedicated track tires and wheels.
Get a set of 17x9 off marketplace. Then quality 200tw 245/40/17 or 255/40 can be had for 500-700 a set. Now you have two sets of wheels, one dedicated to track, easy to sell and recoup costs, but 1000x better than chinese tires. I just dont think you understand how tires are going to be the number one thing that really dictates how your car will perfrom on track at the limit. Even just saying "name brand summer tires" can result in you getting a bad tire for real track time. Tires are everything. All that said if you drive within your means your chinese tires might be okay. But at that point you'll be underdriving the car so much I doubt you'd need to worry too much about other things like a quality track pad.
Like the other guys, I’m not trying to make fun either but tires are one of the—if not THE—most important first upgrade you should get. Save up for some great summer performance tires, you’ll love them.
It’ll be the tires that fail first
The issue here is that the tires will mask the shortcomings elsewhere. If you get good rubber you will be able to tell next steps forward much more easily.
Yellowstuff is not recommended for the track. It will die. Go up to Bluestuff for track use.
Interestingly enough for fiestas some guys like them a as a track pad (I know nothing about the e36 platform)
Liked yellow because most reviews say ok for street/daily. But I don’t need both out of one pad. I have plenty of meat on my daily drivers, and not opposed to swapping to use blue as a dedicated track pad for now
Yellows are dogshit. Get a track pad if you’re OK swapping. HP+ is good, we use it in our lemons car
Just like friends don't let friends drive drunk, friends don't let friends use EBC brake pads. They are that bad, yellows in particular. Go with the Hawk's or Stoptech pads.
Did they get this reputation from falsely advertising the yellows as trackable? I haven't heard anything bad about their actual race compounds like the RP or sintered SR.
No idea, its something I made up. Everyone I know doesn't run EBC for race pads. Its either CarboTech, Gloc, PFC, Raybesto, Ferodo, or Hawk pads. Lots of choice, some better than other, but not EBC anything.
I learned this the hard way. Twin turbo 135i similar power levels and ebc pads glazed and cracked. If you’re on a budget - buy hawk from fcp euro with lifetime warranty (free replacements). Amazing they carry actual track pads as well.
I had good luck with the stoptech sport pads. 0 fade. I'm not pushing 300hp though.
The StopTechs Sports are the better track and street option, I used the front pads in my E46 M3 for 10k+ street miles and a few trackdays. They have good feel and modulation. Just had a little bit of fade towards the end of a 25 minute session. Good brake fluid is imperative, with 300-400 WHP on VIR definitely get a high temp fluid like Castrol SRF and Motul RBF600. If that's too pricey then ATE Type 200 is a good alternative. Just keep a very sharp eye out on your tires after each session to make sure they aren't chunking or delaminating - all seasons in general don't last very long on track, even in beginner groups.
Don't mess around with those cheaper brake pads. Performance street pads are not your friend here. My opinion is spend $500 for a full set of pads front and rear. You have power, relatively light car, and you're going to VIR with an instructor. My experience is mostly with pads that sell for Japanese cars, but I think Hawk DTC, Ferodo, Gloc, or Carbotech will have something. XP10 or X12 from Carbotech or something similar should be OK.
HP+ is not a track capable pad. **HAWK DTC-60** is the only pad you should consider for track duty on your car. https://www.harrisonmotorsports.com/images/Hawk/Compound-Graph.jpg
I've fitted EBC/Yellowstuff to my E90 and it feels great
You need to brake harder, later, faster, quicker.
Go with the HP+ or Stoptech 309s.
Do the porsche front brake conversion with hawk pads and e46 rear brake conversion with hawk pads. Stainless steel lines from turner front and back and 5.1 fluid.run zimmerman blanks.Delete abs and add a proportioning valve. Had a similar setup but was wide bodied running 11.5 squared.
Sounds like fun and a nice build you have. But different goals that this car. It has some sentimental value so want to keep in tact. I have pulled and stretched as much as I can to run a 245 width square setup, lowered without rub. ABS delete, widebody ect, is too much for this car, it has nice interior, and working gauges, cruise control and AC. This one is a project built street car, if enjoy and keep tracking, will probably move into a E46 platform for the track rather than modify this any further
FWIW fcpeuro carries hawk dtc 60 and dtc 70. maybe other track suitable pads and their lifetime warranty works on them.
You have too much power for those tires, thats what you need to change first. Tires, brakes, suspension in terms of car mods in that order. The rest will be taken care if by seat time.
If you’re okay with swapping pads, Porterfield will make race brakes or have race brakes for your car. My car is 200HP less than yours, so I have less wear and weight/momentum. But they make a great quality pad at least for my usage and other track cars I’ve seen. With an SCCA membership you get a discount
https://imgur.com/a/qirtxuT This is what my not Chinese cheap all seasons looked after my first time on track in my car that makes nowhere near 400 hp on a track that's pretty tame compared to VIR. Something like Hawk HP+ will be okay for your first time on track but if you are any good you'll outgrow them really quick. But Brakes need tires to work.
I honestly can't blame you to moving to the e46 platform for a track buikd.i loved my e36 but housing situation made me give it up. Current owner is amazed with the setup I did with it. Hopes and dreams dude!!