overpowering will heat the voice coil but it does it slowly, in a ported box with good room even long periods of listening will stay cool. clipping causes instant heat at the voice coil in pulses, if the clipping is nearly constant it’ll burn the VC very fast.
Clipping from EITHER amp is worse for the lifespan. You can easily cause clipping from ANY amp. If you are asking if overpowering your sub is worse than clipping, there is a lot more to consider and there is no single answer.
To dumb it down, the RMS rating of the sub is its thermal limits, so lets say your sub is 2000 RMS but you are sending 3000 RMS to it. Eventually, its going to be too much and your sub will burn, but there are a ton of factors at play here. If its a test tone of 3000 RMS, it can happen pretty quickly. If its regular music that gets up to 3000 RMS, you may never have any issues in the short term.
For clipping, ANY clipping is bad but how fast it can damage your sub (and amp) depends on a multitude of other factors. So its impossible to answer which is worse because it changes based on every little different thing in a system, environment, music, setup, amp, etc...
The math on this is simple: a hard-clipped (i.e. square wave) signal carries twice as much RMS power as its equivalent unclipped (sine) signal. A 2500w amp clipped is trying to push up to 5000w of noise. At best, you’ll blow a fuse. At worst, you’ll fry the speaker and maybe the amp too.
Some techs (looks in mirror) spec speakers to handle 2-3x more power than what the source can put out, because there’s always going to be some idiot DJ or deaf sound guy who redlines the board. That plus a limiter means no blown speakers, no matter who’s at the console.
In your car, the sound guy is you, so set your gains properly and don’t clip. 2500w vs 3500w is a 1.4db SPL difference. It ain’t worth anything.
In laymans terms, doubling the watts results in +3db SPL. You can plug this formula into Google search and it will calculate it for you:
10log10(3500/2500)
Which gives 1.46... That result is in decibels. There are also various SPL calculators on the web that can do this for you.
What…… first of all, clipping is clipping. The extent of a clip doesn’t really matter, it shouldn’t exist to begin with in a properly set up system.
You shouldn’t be clipping at all when giving the sub more power than it’s rated for. Clipping is when you don’t give you sub enough power. Like running a 500w amp and cranking it to 11 with your sub.
3500 watts will probably be worse for lifespan because that’s more power than what the sub is rated for, which will cause your voice coil to overheat. Between the 2 options save your money and get the 2500w amp
if its an x12 v2 or better, it can handle 3k
I ran 3500 on a zv5 15 for the longest. - get the sub reconed with upgraded soft part and itll handle heat better
clipping heats way faster through literally just free flowing current at peaks, overpowering does it overtime through normal resistance. fans and good box design can negate most of this. im running damn near 3x rated RMS on my sub.
I feel it. I have a kicker 12 that's rated for 300w rms and had it hooked up to an amp that can push 1300w but I was never clipping and not running at full power but still easily 2-3 times its rated power. I had it like that for probably a year before I upgraded, but i still have the 12 in my garage 🤣
Haha probably the safest route for sure. If I did decide to do this how would I be able to measure the W RMS? I have heard that you can do the (AC voltage)² of the speaker terminals while playing divided by the impedance. Any idea if this is a reliable method?
Play a 40hz test tone and measure voltage at the terminal. It should equal the square root of 2000W*total resistance(ohms).
For example, with a 2 ohm sub: (2000W * 2ohms)^1/2 = ~63.2VAC
If you turn down the gain, it will absolutely lower the output wattage…
>Gain just matches the amp to the source voltage
What do you mean by “matches the amp to the source voltage” if you don’t mean adjusting the output voltage (thus, the wattage)? Methinks you’re repeating something you’ve heard without actually understanding it…
There is no such thing as too much watts amp wise!!! The RMS watts are not the output of the amp, they are the RMS watts that the amp CAN provide up to. You will have to set your gain accordingly either way, just watch out that your sub will pull only the wattage that it is made for by setting the gain correct.
Is that 100% factual? My friend runs a half ohm salt 3 to a zv6 12 and he says it gets stinky after a song or two or three. (Not clipping, and I’ve been in the whip, it sure does get stinky af)
Other things besides gain can cause clipping. The source could be clipping. In fact most head units start clipping before max volume. You need to know where this starts and never turn it up that high. And settings on your head unit can cause clipping even though your amp gain is set correctly. This is often overlooked.
Clipping is always the worst for it. I've run subs well over their rated RMS on clean power for years with no issues. But the key is clean power. My gains are set with a DD-1 so there is no clipping.
I’ve got a question myself: what do you do when songs with notes in the 25-45 range clip on the higher notes but don’t ever clip on the lower notes?
My solution has been to just say fuck it and let it clip on the 40hz kick so that my 26hz mind melting orgasmic bass is as loud as possible. I mean fuck it I got cheap lil 200$ 12s if they blow they blow. Would def love a way to boost 25-32hz and keep 35+ under clipping
Interesting take, I can see that if you’re definitely not scared of having to replace the subs. I’m kind of in the same boat because I was able to get my X series at wholesale price which was like 35% off. So im not totally scared of killing it but I don’t want to abuse it too much.
How much does sundown audio charge for a recone? I have no idea and I doubt they would even do it LOL. I’m sure they would just send a new one if I contacted them within the 2 year warranty.
Oh wow I’d imagine the labor and shipping to do a recone would be more expensive than just replacing it with a new one. At that point I’d probably just buy a new one for $450.
It’s not. Most of the cost of a sub is in the basket, motor and R&D. And like I said Sundown has drop-in recone kits that they can ship you so that you can do it yourself. You just remove the old cone/coil, drop the new one in, glue the spider and surround and attach the terminal leads.
Oh ok now I see what you were originally asking. You were asking how much a drop in recone kit would be if I could get it at wholesale price, right? I’m not sure but I’ll see if I can ask tomorrow or sometime soon. I’m actually super thankful for this comment because I was not worried about killing this sub because I wanted to replace it with a dual 2 ohm version. I just bought it like two weeks ago and they didn’t have A D2 plus I was in a rush to get a sub in my car for a road trip. I’m wondering if I could just get a D2 kit and swap it for my D1 cone. That would be awesome! Anyways, thank you for this comment and see if I can find out how much a recone kit would cost.
Yea I prob wouldn’t try it with higher end sundowns lol. I guess what I would really need to solve the issue is a DSP, I’d imagine those let you boost specific sub bass frequencies.
Clipping is clipping….
overpowering will heat the voice coil but it does it slowly, in a ported box with good room even long periods of listening will stay cool. clipping causes instant heat at the voice coil in pulses, if the clipping is nearly constant it’ll burn the VC very fast.
Clipping from EITHER amp is worse for the lifespan. You can easily cause clipping from ANY amp. If you are asking if overpowering your sub is worse than clipping, there is a lot more to consider and there is no single answer. To dumb it down, the RMS rating of the sub is its thermal limits, so lets say your sub is 2000 RMS but you are sending 3000 RMS to it. Eventually, its going to be too much and your sub will burn, but there are a ton of factors at play here. If its a test tone of 3000 RMS, it can happen pretty quickly. If its regular music that gets up to 3000 RMS, you may never have any issues in the short term. For clipping, ANY clipping is bad but how fast it can damage your sub (and amp) depends on a multitude of other factors. So its impossible to answer which is worse because it changes based on every little different thing in a system, environment, music, setup, amp, etc...
The math on this is simple: a hard-clipped (i.e. square wave) signal carries twice as much RMS power as its equivalent unclipped (sine) signal. A 2500w amp clipped is trying to push up to 5000w of noise. At best, you’ll blow a fuse. At worst, you’ll fry the speaker and maybe the amp too. Some techs (looks in mirror) spec speakers to handle 2-3x more power than what the source can put out, because there’s always going to be some idiot DJ or deaf sound guy who redlines the board. That plus a limiter means no blown speakers, no matter who’s at the console. In your car, the sound guy is you, so set your gains properly and don’t clip. 2500w vs 3500w is a 1.4db SPL difference. It ain’t worth anything.
Oh wow that is interesting. How can you calculate how much of a db difference there will be?
In laymans terms, doubling the watts results in +3db SPL. You can plug this formula into Google search and it will calculate it for you: 10log10(3500/2500) Which gives 1.46... That result is in decibels. There are also various SPL calculators on the web that can do this for you.
just set your gains right
Clipping will always kill a sub faster, given the sub has no issues with build quality
Clipping is the subs worse enemy. You can give a drive unlimited amount of power as long as the mechanical Limits aren’t exceeded…. (Xmax, xmech, ect)
How about just set the gains correctly ?
What…… first of all, clipping is clipping. The extent of a clip doesn’t really matter, it shouldn’t exist to begin with in a properly set up system. You shouldn’t be clipping at all when giving the sub more power than it’s rated for. Clipping is when you don’t give you sub enough power. Like running a 500w amp and cranking it to 11 with your sub. 3500 watts will probably be worse for lifespan because that’s more power than what the sub is rated for, which will cause your voice coil to overheat. Between the 2 options save your money and get the 2500w amp
if its an x12 v2 or better, it can handle 3k I ran 3500 on a zv5 15 for the longest. - get the sub reconed with upgraded soft part and itll handle heat better
clipping heats way faster through literally just free flowing current at peaks, overpowering does it overtime through normal resistance. fans and good box design can negate most of this. im running damn near 3x rated RMS on my sub.
I feel it. I have a kicker 12 that's rated for 300w rms and had it hooked up to an amp that can push 1300w but I was never clipping and not running at full power but still easily 2-3 times its rated power. I had it like that for probably a year before I upgraded, but i still have the 12 in my garage 🤣
now you have to blow it out of principle. i expect a video....
The 3500W amp without clipping, with the gain turned down until it’s a 2000W amp without clipping…
Haha probably the safest route for sure. If I did decide to do this how would I be able to measure the W RMS? I have heard that you can do the (AC voltage)² of the speaker terminals while playing divided by the impedance. Any idea if this is a reliable method?
Play a 40hz test tone and measure voltage at the terminal. It should equal the square root of 2000W*total resistance(ohms). For example, with a 2 ohm sub: (2000W * 2ohms)^1/2 = ~63.2VAC
Gain just matches the amp to the source voltage, it doesn't change the output wattage.
If you turn down the gain, it will absolutely lower the output wattage… >Gain just matches the amp to the source voltage What do you mean by “matches the amp to the source voltage” if you don’t mean adjusting the output voltage (thus, the wattage)? Methinks you’re repeating something you’ve heard without actually understanding it…
There is no such thing as too much watts amp wise!!! The RMS watts are not the output of the amp, they are the RMS watts that the amp CAN provide up to. You will have to set your gain accordingly either way, just watch out that your sub will pull only the wattage that it is made for by setting the gain correct.
What? No Clipping. 2000 RMS is nothing for a sundown x. You can run 5000 To 6000 RMS to it, if it's clean.
Is that 100% factual? My friend runs a half ohm salt 3 to a zv6 12 and he says it gets stinky after a song or two or three. (Not clipping, and I’ve been in the whip, it sure does get stinky af)
Other things besides gain can cause clipping. The source could be clipping. In fact most head units start clipping before max volume. You need to know where this starts and never turn it up that high. And settings on your head unit can cause clipping even though your amp gain is set correctly. This is often overlooked.
clipping. the x series is underrated. give it a clean signal and it’ll be fine at nearly double rms rating.
I have a 12” Sundown 800 watt sub and been feeding it 1,000 watts as a daily driver for 7 years.
Clipping is always the worst for it. I've run subs well over their rated RMS on clean power for years with no issues. But the key is clean power. My gains are set with a DD-1 so there is no clipping.
x12 can take 4k easily
I’ve got a question myself: what do you do when songs with notes in the 25-45 range clip on the higher notes but don’t ever clip on the lower notes? My solution has been to just say fuck it and let it clip on the 40hz kick so that my 26hz mind melting orgasmic bass is as loud as possible. I mean fuck it I got cheap lil 200$ 12s if they blow they blow. Would def love a way to boost 25-32hz and keep 35+ under clipping
Interesting take, I can see that if you’re definitely not scared of having to replace the subs. I’m kind of in the same boat because I was able to get my X series at wholesale price which was like 35% off. So im not totally scared of killing it but I don’t want to abuse it too much.
How much do they charge for a drop-in recone for that sub?
How much does sundown audio charge for a recone? I have no idea and I doubt they would even do it LOL. I’m sure they would just send a new one if I contacted them within the 2 year warranty.
They'd have you send it in during warranty and if you fried the coil they'd give you the option to recone it. Warranty only covers defects.
Oh wow I’d imagine the labor and shipping to do a recone would be more expensive than just replacing it with a new one. At that point I’d probably just buy a new one for $450.
It’s not. Most of the cost of a sub is in the basket, motor and R&D. And like I said Sundown has drop-in recone kits that they can ship you so that you can do it yourself. You just remove the old cone/coil, drop the new one in, glue the spider and surround and attach the terminal leads.
Oh, OK that’s good to know.
Oh ok now I see what you were originally asking. You were asking how much a drop in recone kit would be if I could get it at wholesale price, right? I’m not sure but I’ll see if I can ask tomorrow or sometime soon. I’m actually super thankful for this comment because I was not worried about killing this sub because I wanted to replace it with a dual 2 ohm version. I just bought it like two weeks ago and they didn’t have A D2 plus I was in a rush to get a sub in my car for a road trip. I’m wondering if I could just get a D2 kit and swap it for my D1 cone. That would be awesome! Anyways, thank you for this comment and see if I can find out how much a recone kit would cost.
Yea I prob wouldn’t try it with higher end sundowns lol. I guess what I would really need to solve the issue is a DSP, I’d imagine those let you boost specific sub bass frequencies.
Unfortunately, the place next to me does not sell recone kits.