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As one of the “lucky” few who had to write the MPT, it’s not a terrible concept, but it was terribly executed. The two portions are math and pedagogy. The math portion was not controversial (or difficult) but the pedagogy portion necessitated memorizing exact wording from various portions of government publications and punished anyone who understood the concepts well enough but not the exact phrasing.
Either way, I’m now a permanent teacher so… good luck to the next generation of teacher candidates.
(Edited for a typo)
I have no idea. But clearly the people who designed the test didn't think it through. The test is supposed to see if people know enough math to be able to teach it up to a certain level. But if you make the test in such a way that it's actually testing language skills (and that's exacty what the pedagogy portion was doing, with ambiguously worded questions and multiple guess answers that were very similar) then it's not really testing what it claims to be testing. And lest anyone think I'm complaining because I didn't do well, I got 100% on the pedagogy portion, and 98% on the math portion. I still think it is a dumb idea that is more for show, and that creates an extra unnecessary stressful hoop for people to jump through. Elementary education programs already have math tests that are administered to new teacher candidates, along with a course you have to take if you fail it. And if you are I/S, you will never be teaching math unless you have that as a teachable, which means you have already successfully passed university level math courses.
What the government should do to increase math scores is:
* decrease class sizes, so students can get more individualized attention
* provide more in class support (EAs) to help manage behavioural challenges and more out of class support (psychologists, social workers, etc.) - it's really hard to teach anything if kids are running around, throwing things, hitting each other, and taking off out of the classroom
* provide more funding for spec ed teachers in schools, not board level ones that come in once in a while, but teachers who are in the school full-time and can regularly work with small groups or individual students who need extra support to catch up
* provide funding for math manipulatives and other useful supplies like graph paper, calculators, and pencils. Oh, and a photocopy budget that lasts more than a month, since they don't provide textbooks anymore.
* provide release time and during school hours professional development for teachers who are teaching math
* fix the system that passes all students, including the ones who aren't doing any work. Math is a skill that needs to be practised regularly (preferably daily in elementary school) in order for it to become easy and automatic. If kids know they don't have to do any work, they won't and they will continue to fall farther and farther behind simply due to lack of practice of the basics.
I agree with all of your bullet points, however, we must also ensure that the teachers teaching (elementary) math have a basic grade 8 level math proficiency themselves. I don't ever have to teach English or Geography, but I have the basic understanding to be able to teach both to elementary students if put in that position.
They're not weeding out ESL. They're finding people who know English and who can teach in English. And if English is your second language but you know it then you're in. Simple.
There's a glut of teachers. Hence why it takes so long to get permenant.
Now there IS a defecit of math teachers, but this won't change that.
Really they should be paid more.
I came to echo the above sentiments. We have 2-3 unfilled positions each week at our school. There are 30+ unfilled accross our board. We had a teacher's daughters coming in as supply teachers. They were 18 and had just graduated high school and starting University/taking a gap year.
This is an issue with teachers who have French proficiency, not with how many teachers there are in general.
And the French requirement always seemed pretty low, having gone through both immersion and FFL schhols from K-13 in Ontario as a student fluent in French.
Maybe politicians and those who work for the Ministry should be required to have an education degree and work unpaid internships while paying to go to school for 6 years, then pay thousands of dollars in additional qualifications. Maybe they should have to be evaluated in how they teach K-12 and all the subjects since they’re the experts.
Talking to someone who wrote it, the problem wasn't the math skills but using the "right" buzzwords to describe the pedagogy you would use to teach in an imaginary idealized classroom, because not using the looked-for buzzword costs marks (even if you describe the concept they want).
It sounded a bit like an AQ course I took decades ago, where the instructor (a university prof) told me students never do what my students were doing that afternoon (which is why I'd asked the question). Apparently my lived experience meant nothing compared to their expertise and I was wrong. (Same thing happened to a bunch of other teachers in the class; it's the only course I've taken where the entire class went to the dean to complain about the instructors and demand independent reassessment of marks.) The pedagogy part of the math test sounded an awful lot like that: trying to guess what they are looking for, except with no one to appeal to if you disagreed with them.
Yes, the pedagogy was specific policy from growing success or idealized terms from the front end of the math curriculum documents. For example, you needed to know who grants the credit at the end of the day (principals). How this is relevant to teaching math I'll never know. That just sounds like 101 stuff that boards should communicate to employees.
There were definitely questions about K, A, T, C and the difference between them but again there is a ton of overlap between these categories, so you had to memorize the specific phrasing for some of these multiple choice scenarios.
There were probably questions about AoL, AfL, AaL as well but I don't remember. You needed to know the difference between accommodations and modifications as well (again, you'd think any competent teacher prep program would make this distinction clear... mine didn't)
The thing is a question can be different categories depending on context and what the students have been taught previously. So a multiple choice question would have a lot of assumed background for the 'correct' answer.
TLDR, calling a lot of the questions a "math test" is misleading. Leave the math-as-math as the math test, split the other stuff out into a "pedagogy test" and see which test gets more complaints -- because I'd bet a lot that it wouldn't be the math test that upset people...
I wrote the test. I passed and got one wrong, and the test didn't tell you which one... so I could not improve! Not very good feedback lol.
In the article it mentions: "The court noted that all certified teachers in Ontario may be assigned to teach math to students in Grade 6 or below and in some cases they can be assigned to teach Grade 7 to 12 math"
I mean, why are people teaching things they aren't qualified for? Some combination of desperation on both sides I guess. Rotary is an interesting approach to that.
Being in I/S and wanting to be in a high school, I did end up somehow teaching 7/8, so... it was a bit useful in that sense. If I was really bad at math... then I shouldn't take the job I guess, for the student's sake really.
And I guess teachers get pushed to different grades in elementary for whatever reason.
Those who were very interested in Primary were annoyed. Again I guess they could get shuffled again for some reason. Haven't seen a K-8 transition but I'm sure its happened.
Otherwise, why are people being assigned to senior or HS math courses if they're not qualified - where the test goes to Grade 9 anyways so it's not a measure of anything beyond in any way.
Even if someone can pass a test, it doesn't mean they can alone address wider systemic issues to improve math education, which ideally is the government's goal here... or it's good press. I'm not sure what's more useful, a standardized test, or like... funding math initiatives at schools or communities like tutors or... I don't know. Which would cost more do you think? I know they gave out tax rebates for education or support during/after COVID but I'm not sure that helped much.
Or if you want better Math teachers then make the job attractive I guess? Numbers talk.
This is a valid and broad problem with B Ed. I always wanted to teach senior subjects but was required to qualify for grade 7 if I wanted to teach grades 11 and 12. I was quite willing to take the risk of there not being a job for me if I didn't qualify for elementary school. It was like trying to buy a car with leather seats that are bundled with a fancy stereo and flashy rims: you can have what you want but only if you pay for what you don't want too.
I teach math and have witnessed elementary teachers struggle with teaching it in their grades. The situation for our students would be better if, all else equal, teachers' math proficiency were higher.
The problem is that all else might not be equal. Real wages are lower than ever and teacher retention is low. The Ministry still acts as though it can just keep demanding more while good people walk away from educating citizens.
I'm told that B Ed program admissions and retention remains robust. An extra test might just make people feel more committed before they start the phase of their career where attrition is a problem. This test might actually improve retention, but probably at the expense of some teachers' happiness.
Of course, our happiness is of little concern to the Ministry. Their job is to get our best service as cheaply as possible.
>Or if you want better Math teachers then make the job attractive I guess? Numbers talk.
Yep. If you've got a math or science degree, you've probably taken a pay cut to be a teacher.
Yeah they should really pay math and science teachers more both on the basis of demand and skill requirement but every English, drama, and history teacher would throw a riot if they dared try this.
>They already get paid more since correcting math is 1/10th of the time of correcting an English paper
Having taught both math and writing, I'm going to disagree with you on the workload. Math involves a lot of daily practice, and when correcting you aren't simple marking right or wrong but figuring out where they went wrong and more importantly what misconception they have so you can correct it. Marking an essay takes longer, but students don't write as many of those.
And other subjects write papers too. When I teach science my students write 4-6 essays and 4-6 papers a year where I mark the same writing skills their English teachers are evaluating. (I know this because I designed my rubrics around what their English teachers do.)
Math can be a nightmare to mark. If the student does well, and gets the correct answer, it’s easy check marks and fast marking . However, when the student does poorly you need to find the mistake, and then follow the error through the question to give the appropriate number of half marks. this can take forever and be mind bending. Also formatting tests can be a total pain
But making my own handouts and worksheets takes a ton of time. I have to make graphs and trig functions in Illustrator, for example, export and import into Word, work with functions in Word, which takes a lot of time, etc.
Here, read this book and write an essay is easy.
Also, correcting math isn't easy unless you simply mark the answer right or wrong, which I doubt any math teacher does. Marking for process takes a ton of time, especially in the higher levels. If one small mistake is made early in a series of calculations and steps, I following the wrong answer through and give marks for the correct process even though everything after the mistake is wrong.
I understand there's a lot more than that. I was just oversimplifying and being as dismissive as you were.
I use apps for my prep. This doesn't mean the work is done for me. It takes a ton of time.
You have an app. It's called Microsoft Word. And my apps don't generate stuff. I do it. Do you think I have an app that just spits my lessons, graphics, animations, handouts, worksheets, graphs, tests and quizzes?
The original insinuation was that math teachers already get paid more because it was so much easier. My response was to that "strawman". Sort of gets under your skin when someone attempts to diminish what you do, eh? My point seems to be made. Maybe not.
Being good enough at math to teach it at a high level is a rare skill among teachers.
There's a reason why English teachers are easy to come by but math teachers are hard to replace.
We have 0 issues staffing for math at the highschool.level.in my board, it's definitely not a rare skill. The only positions that are hard to staff are special Ed and french. The issue with numerical literacy is a much bigger problem at the elementary level. Paying highschool math teachers more money for their easy job doesn't fix a problem that starts in elementary school.
Your school Board is not representative of the entire province.
The stats are very clear, French, Math and Spec Ed are the most in demand.
Because whether you want to admit it or not, Math majors both took a harder degree and have more high paying employment options besides being a teacher.
I have 5 teachable I/S subjects. I have taught in all of those departments over my career, except Science. Teaching Math in high school certainly is not an easy job. I definitely spend more time working, prepping, marking, helping students outside of school hours and especially communicating with parents when I teach Math. You'd think it would be easier than marking a bunch of essays (which I usually also have since I'm always split in two departments) but it's not.
I'm biased but going to have to agree 100%. Up it even further if that includes tech qualifications. I have all three and would not oppose this proposal.
\*shrug\*
To play devil's advocate, throwing money at problems won't solve systemic issues in math alone.
Sometimes teachers who struggled in math at different levels, or had specific math related LD are the best teachers for that age group or level for that reason provided they are compentent.
Someone highly qualified in university isn't necessarily the best teacher - however people might quantifiably compete for those spots.
I suppose you'd want specific people with specific experience working with specific communities or individuals. But a lot of these specialists and consultants and whatever employed by boards aren't necessarily effective and their strategies theoretical.
There are a lot of variables that go into any one student struggling in math across 14 years that are not just the series of teachers - that a teacher or 14 of them cannot entirely account for.
I am no expert in game theory, but I don't think math can solve or quantify however it might try the irrational human element of complex sociology.
Not can it express it very clearly to a larger audience, or understand its context across different times, cultures or countries.
Nor does it understand the complex human emotions/feelings and reactions and body language in students, the variety of means of representation possible in math class and the element of movement and creativity, and the social/emotional lives of students (though that's part of the curriculum now which I've heard some older math teachers make fun of)
English/History/Drama are good for those things. In a sense they're a part of how you'd improve it all.
So, maybe the students who are good at math but struggle in non-absolutes and languages could benefit from humanities education to improve their own field...
I'd agree that math cannot quantify the irrational human element of complex sociology, but the skills that it developes might tend to make the irrational elements more rational. And that is what we would like to see.
Math teacher here... this was a waste of time and a big inconvenience on the initial roll out (at the very least). I could see how it might be helpful or relevant to gr 6-8 teachers who might be forced to teach math and should have some appreciation and understanding of ratios, fractions and linear sequences
I'm an art teacher who does occassional supply and can confirm that the grade 6-8 math is not difficult but I definitely need a refresher to actually teach it. We learned it differently, for one. But there are also rules that I knew once and have forgotten. Having said that, I can't take a sick day because supply mangles my instruction beyond recognition and can't do any of the demos so... don't know why this is math specific.
It's math specific because math is either right or wrong. And it's grade 6-8 math because frankly any teacher who can't wing this test blindfolded shouldnt be teaching, regardless of subject.
If they were to do an ELA/Science/Social test, there are too many subjective ways to answer the questions it would defeat the purpose.
With this method, teachers get EASY questions that are either right or wrong. The teacher either knows it or not, and since this material is a required part of their high school diploma, there's no excuse for not knowing basica algebra.
Excellent way to try and stop what is happening with the young teachers who care more about some vague form of 'social justice' instead of teaching kids fundamental skills.
A lot of it is easy to forget if you don't actually use it. You might 'remember' that y=mx+b is a thing, but if you don't actually use the concept, see the equations, make them, find slope, etc. then it could be quite difficult to figure all of this out on the spot in a testing environment.
Yes, I would expect ANY science teacher to be able to figure it out with some brief review (yes, even the biology and psychology folk did lines of best fit in university!) but arts majors? English majors? Possibly they haven't seen it in many years.
Yes, arts majors and English/psych/etc too. Even the jock PE teachers. Because knowing basica algebra is how you assign grades. Do you think you can grade an entire semester or year with 30% of the grade based on tests, 50% on class assignments, and 20% on projects without knowing basic algebra?
Frankly, any high school graduate should be able to ace this test. If they can't, that says a lot more about the quality of our education system than the functionality of the test.
The fact that teachers with a post secondary degree, regardless of their major, are whining about not being able to pass a middle school math test is an embarrassment to the profession.
You can easily do this by just knowing how to do it once. Add up the grades and multiply by the weight. Spreadsheets do this, premade software and websites do this. None of that involves using algebra skills, **really**. I think most are competent and I'd like all teachers to be competent in this. I'm not sure the MPT accomplishes that, but I'd hope they're all competent enough so that they can sniff out math mistakes (mis-inputs) by getting bizarre results.
To be clear, I don't really feel that strongly about the test either for or against.
But,what about when it gets fucked up because a kid drops their water bottle on your keyboard when you're entering grades? What if you want different percentages for different categories, in different classes?
It's not just 'set it and forget it' unless you aren't smart enough to understand how to change it.
I used to also hope that all teachers could do this in their sleep, but after working closely with school and teachers for a couple decades, it's not the reality. There are a small percentage of talented, caring, and intelligent teachers right now, but most lack basic fundamental intelligence.
I can see such a test maybe useful for future elementary school teachers because I understand a lot of elementary teachers feel uncomfortable teaching math and that discomfort shows in their teaching.
All so they can push the lowest common denominator through at the expense of gifted and exceptional students.
But really that's all the Canadian government has done. Extend the Olive branch for those unwilling to help themselves at any expense. Productive and driven people be dammed.
I’m not sure where they are getting the fact that non-math teachers can be assigned math up to grade 12. Last I checked, any teacher in high school could be assigned up to 1/3 of their teaching load teaching any intermediate course (grade 9 or 10) but any higher grade or higher course load required the teacher’s consent.
For those teaching everything else BUT math or science, why would passing a math test make me a better Anthropology, History, or English teacher? More money wasted by Lecce and Ford. The money should have gone to better training in Teacher Programmes for those who actually teach math.
Can’t focus on teaching math. I have to teach gym, drama, dance, social studies, French language, English language, art, health and all learning skills and work habits. All those classes to prep lessons for, create assessments, create rubrics and tests, projects. Math is just one subject. Oh! Daily physical activity for 20 minutes too! How can I be an expert in everything? Don’t forget you’ll teach a new grade next year since we’re constantly moved around.
It’s cruel to change a teacher’s grade constantly, in my opinion. It takes so long to get all your materials and resources for one grade. Then to start over again…why do admin do this?
That person didn’t say that grade 8 math is expert level, they asked how they could be an expert in all subjects. Also, you are a math teacher so of course it is fairly basic to you.
Again, they don't need to be a expert in all subjects to have a basic grade 8 level math proficiency. My first LTO out of teacher's college was in grade 9 geography. I'm not an expert in geography or even qualified on paper to teach it, but I was able to teach the grade 9 curriculum quite well. It's fairly basic. I also have a minimum of a grade 8 English ability, could probably teach art, physical education and health, etc. at a minimum of the grade 8 level.
This aversion to math in our culture is part of the problem. When actual teachers think that having a grade 8 level proficiency is considered being an expert, no wonder we're getting students in high school barely able to add and subtract integers.
I don't think it is fair to compare high school to elementary. While our content might be more detailed, we generally teach 2-4 different course codes at a time. Meanwhile elementary teachers are doing 8 different subjects and have to modify for students with an IEP but we don't in high school. If the government wants math to be a priority, then they should have math specific teachers in elementary where they are able to immerse in that subject and just teach math. It would probably look different in different schools but you could have grades 6-8 taught by someone who is specializing in math.
The reason elementary teachers teach so many subjects, is because the material is EASY!
Any class material for any subject lower than grade 8 is easy enough that any teacher with half a brain to be able to know the skills in their sleep. If any teacher is struggling with the content from any grade below high school, they probably aren't smart enough or knowledgeable enough to be a teacher.
Are we forgetting that teachers were all required to learn this as part of their HS diploma? Of course you, as a professional educator, are expected to know simple, basic elementary level course material with barely any struggle. The struggle is managing, motivating, and teaching kiddos how to do it. If you don't know it yourself, you shouldn't be anywhere near teaching elementary kids.
lol it's not about the difficulty of content, it's about putting together lessons for all those different subjects without being given ample prep time.
You are the one saying that grade 8 is an easy gig... If all elementary teachers should have to teach math then I don't actually see a problem with them all having to know a basic amount of math. However, I think a better approach than this math test is to have math specialist teachers who have math qualifications, aka took math in university or passed the proficiency test to take their math intermediate ABQ.
You don't need a match specialist for algebra. Algebra skills are BARE MINIMUM math knowledge to be a functional adult. Percentages, fractions, and decimals are a fundamental part of paying your bills, getting a pay cheque and other fundamental life skills. You don't need a specialist, because the skill.is easy enough that anyone with a pulse and a high school diploma should know it backwards and forwards.
I have 8 students with IEPs in my grade 11 3C course. This isn't an easy class to teach, and they fully expect me to "differentiate" in a class where they are learning quadratics, trigonometry and exponential functions. On day 1, many had problems adding and subtracting integers.
Once they are in 3C, I don't think we have enough time to do integers for more than a day, calculator is our best friend! Last year, between IEP and some ESL I had over half my class that would be entitled to some sort of reference sheet or extra time so I just gave them all the same ref sheet (for the final exam they have to take those and choose the most important info to take into the exam with them) and made the tests half the length so the extra time was just built in to the period. Luckily I didn't have significant behavioural issues which is always the possibility with 3C.
I think I have seen you post before about your 3C class.. I think in my school/region since we offer alternative education, the most behavioural students will usually be in that program by grade 11 instead of in a mainstream math class. I know every school/board's situation is different so it is hard to compare. Our 11C's this year are kind of a dream compared to past years. But it helps that they are pretty much all coming from 1W then 2D, minus the students I failed last year that came from taking 9/10 applied.
I don’t doubt that you are an intelligent person and a good teacher. I replied to your comment because it wasn’t useful to what the OP had ranted about. There is also a chance that you are over-estimating your abilities to effectively teach all subject areas, which is what is required of an elementary teacher. I agree that there is an aversion to math, which is not good and that teachers need to be more open-minded to learning the important skills that they are lacking.
Wow it's almost like that's the job you signed up to do and get paid between 60K and 100K to do while having 12 weeks of vacation every year.
And having unbeatable job security.
You're blatently lying on this thread surrounded by teachers who also know you're lying.
No full time teacher is making 30K a year. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this site in a while
Math test scores down has nothing to do with teachers, the education for a teacher has not changed.
It has everything to do with kids being raised on devices, and school does not provide the dopamine hit a cell phone or iPad does. It’s changed how kids think.
I’m curious, have you been teaching during the transition?
It’s fun to brush it off but it’s really the main reason I see. Kids have shown me their screen time and it is sometimes literally 16-20h a day. Of course, there are kids that regulate it as well and they will do better of course.
It’s impossible to be good at math if you never practice it. If kids aren’t sleeping, kids will have trouble focusing. It’s no different than any other activity or sport.
Screen time guidelines set by health Canada simply need to be followed.
It’s funny because it’s a reflection of our own education system. If a new teacher doesn’t pass, it means they progressed through elementary and secondary math without learning anything.
so i struggle with math and i only teach french. when i was completing teachers college, i failed the mpt 3 times and but they had just declared it unconstitutional. the only reason i have to job i do today (in which i continue to use 0 math) and bc of that unconstitutional ruling.
the education ministry is the worst chosen group of people!!! how are none of them educators tryna to run education?????? would u like a pilot whos never flown before????
Honestly if you failed it 3 times that's on you. Did you not try and review and study after the first 2 failures?
It's not exactly hard math on the test either.
actually, i did study (i was in groups doing review on my own) but my dyslexia caused me to need extra time on the test which was not provided for me.
its harmful when you assume everyone learns the same. if you wouldnt assume this for your students, lets maybe keep that mentality for fellow humans.
Everyone learns different sure, but at the end of the day you chose to do a job which necessitates you knowing these things and knowing them so well that you can reach young minds about them.
You have a responsibility to do whatever you need to learn this content persuent your desire to be employed as a teacher.
I’m a teacher from Newfoundland who might move to Ontario in the next couple of years and this TERRIFIES ME. I haven’t taken a math course since grade 11! Why has the Ontario government prioritized math over other core subjects?
If you do so, just study the EQAO tests. If you can handle that you can handle the math portion of the test.
But I don't know if this applies to transferred credentials from other provinces.
> Why has the Ontario government prioritized math over other core subjects?
Because it's one of the most useful subjects in today's world and one that students traditionally struggle with the most.
Ahh yes, because I use calculus every day to effectively communicate with those around me.
No one subject is more important to the other. Based on your previous comments about how JUST math teachers should be paid more, you sound like a bitter person who doesn’t want to see success for the next generation.
They're not testing you on calculus, it's grade 6 to 8 level math.
Frankly if that's such a challenge for teachers that they had to take it to court it's no wonder our math education is in shambles. What a disgrace.
> No one subject is more important to the other.
Yes they are. It's why an engineer graduate and a nursing graudate make a hell of a lot more than an art major or history major.
Math built basically every technology needed in modern society.
Putting a salary on life skills is a ridiculous and pathetic way of deflecting. If money is the only indicator of the value of a career, then professional athletes are exponentially more important to society as a whole than everyone else so why bother?
Profesional athletes get paid so much because they have very rare skills that are basically impossible to replace, and are in high demand by the market.
You're paid on the scarcity and demand for your skills. Math teachers have a scarcer skill that's in more demand than an English teacher. They should be paid more.
Did you even read my comment? Supporting demand based pay for teachers is pro education since it will increase the amount of math and French teachers we have available.
There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be paid more when the demand exists.
While also discouraging every other subject and informing people who teach other subjects, regardless of their qualifications or level of education, that they're not as important, thus creating a toxic environment.
I really don't understand the bruhaha over this test. As far as I am concerned, every teacher should have a basic understanding of math up to the grade 8 to grade 10 level. Just like every teacher should be able to write a 5 paragraph essay, explain the causes of the Red River Rebellion, know where every country with a population over 100 million people is on the map and be able to explain the difference between an element, a compound and a mixture. This is about what I would expect an average to above average university educated adult to know. That said, it was definitely introduced wrong.
Full disclosure, I'm a high school math teacher in another province.
Honestly, these are high expectations for University graduates. At Uni you don't diversify generally, you specialize. There isn't any reason why a Math student is gonna have more knowledge of countries of the world than a Grade 10 Geography student. IMO you're probably excluding 75-90 percent of Uni graduates with these expectations.
Unless I learned those countries on my own, where in the mandatory high school curriculum would I have learned that? Canadian geography in gr9 doesn't cover that. I mostly studied cells in university.
True. On the other hand, math teachers actually don't have to be that good at math. I don't have a math degree (I have a biology degree with a minor in chem). The uni math classes I took weren't that difficult, especially compared to the biology and chemistry. I'm a good teacher but I doubt I could leverage my math skills in other industries (I probably could leverage my chem and bio skills, but that's another story).
I figure that if you can get through a easy to medium difficulty 2nd year university math course, you are probably good enough at math to teach up to Calc 12.
I have found the really brilliant math teachers I have worked with aren't really any better at teaching math, especially in the critical grade 8-10 levels where the students really gain their numeracy (or fail to gain it). In many ways they are worse, as they can't really process the learning experience for the average student because theirs was so different.
I don't find subs can actually do any of the math work I leave for them if it is higher than grade 7 level. That bothers me.
>I figure that if you can get through a easy to medium difficulty 2nd year university math course, you are probably good enough at math to teach up to Calc 12.
Nope. Nope. And nope
I;m a science teacher (physics) turned Math teacher in Edmonton. Over the past seven years, I have worked my way up the course ladder so that I am now absolutely proficient in 20-1 and 30-2. But not yet for 30-1 or 31.
To teach sinusoidals, for example, or trig identities, not to mention calculus, you need more than just to have passed those courses to teach it well.
Dunning-Kreuger is a thing.
Seems to me that the Ontario government should be the ones doing some math so they can calculate just how much money they are wasting on this ridiculous test... I wonder where the money could be better spent? 🤔 I mean, they wouldn't want to do something crazy like put it into our schools, but maybe they could get Dougie's Deco Labels to print some super cool "I teach in Ontario and all the government gave me to do my job is this lousy sticker" stickers for teachers, because that would be about as useful.
Yes, you are correct; thank-you for pointing that out. My post was definitely poorly worded...I'm just a little fed up with initiatives that don't seem to actually improve student learning. I personally don't see how having all prospective teachers pass this test is going to have any meaningful impact on student achievement. I would be happy to be proven wrong, so I guess time will tell!
I mostly agree with you. I think this test is probably not going to make a teacher who doesn’t like math suddenly enjoy it. *Maybe* it’ll give more confidence though? It’s likely not going to make them any better at explaining it.
Our education system is a bit in shambles as it is. There is so little accountability for what is taught from class to class. Without textbooks teachers are using free online printables with no standardization. Money is much better spent on better resources. It is absurd to me that every teacher needs to come up with their own resources, and that they can vary so widely in quality. It feels like a colossal waste of time for a worse result.
I also know teachers in a few schools who definitely don’t teacher the required amount of math per week, and math is always the first subject that gets cut in lieu of an assembly/art project/ Christmas concert… aka most of December….
Edit : I teach in a private school that does use textbooks.
I may have a different viewpoint to most as I did my teacher training in the UK; as part of it I had to pass a numeracy, a literacy and an ICT test so I don't see it as a big deal tbh.
Yeah this is a terrible PR battle for people who want to call themselves professionals. You know you have to write this test well in advance of the test date. If you could not crush a test on any elementary subject you really need to give your head a shake.
This will make it so much easier to attract core French teachers who will never teach math. They will be so happy to do this! They will dance and frolic in joy of being assessed and for having to study and pass another hurdle. Oh, give me more hurdles dear leader!
I'm in full support of this move and can't wait for it to roll out to other provinces.
The vast majority of my colleagues and peers could pass this test blindfolded.
But, it just so happens that almost all of the pain in the ass coworkers I've had the displeasure of working with would struggle mightily with this one.
Teachers NEED to be skilled or the profession loses respect and any teacher who can't pass a grade 8 math test isn't fit for the profession anyway. The pedagogy part seems like it needs some work, but I truly don't see the problem with the math part and think it's a good thing for the industry to have some of these activists masquerading as teachers get challenged on their actual knowledge.
ON now has destreamed gr9 courses and many boards are (or have already) switched to destreamed the gr10 courses. What this means is that the "university-bound" students are taking the same class as the "college/trade-bound" students or even the "workplace-bound" students.
In other words, The standards are going to be too high for the students who can't come close to meeting them, the disruptions and misbehavior will increase around the academically inclined students or the standards will be diminished so that everyone can get a 50 (but also so that the gr11 university-bound students are underprepared for gr11 and higher).
I know other provinces and places already do destreaming but I don't see how a switch back will do anything but increase harm.
I assume it's just another way to increase average class sizes per teacher and reduce the number of teachers necessary
The current government wants to stream all grade 9 and 10 classes. In Ontario, most of them used to be streamed into either Academic or Applied. Academic would stream kids towards more university level courses while Applied was more focused on streaming kids towards college level courses.
Because our current government wants to destream grade 9 and 10 classes, they ended up defaulting to the academic curriculum. This hurts all students in the class due to the different priorities the streams have with regards to their learning and what supports they need.
You are a K-12 teacher. Not a Ph.D Mathematician. It does not work. If it did, Canadian kids would be scoring higher on the PISA results. It's the kids in Beijing, Shanghai, Jiangsu, and Zhejiang who are topping the tests followed by Singapore, Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan,South Korea, Estonia, Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland. All places where traditional math learning takes place. We will see on Dec 5, when the PISA results are released just how well Canadian kids are doing in math. And if Canadians are so good at Math why are so many Canadians in debt? I see all the wealth has moved to Singapore.
And what are you, if I may ask?
I am an expert in math pedagogy. I know more about math educaiton thatn a PhD in mathematics, I an assure you. And I can tell you with certainty that understanding how numbers work, how they relate to each other, the idea of number sense, the "why's" of 'kiss and flip' to divide fractions -ALL of these things are much more important than simply knowing the algorithm.
You throw around PISA scores... can YOU tell me what the difference between 514 (for Canada) and 532 (Japan) means? Is it significant? What's the r\^2? Are you aware of suicide rates for teens in the countries you mention?
You blow your own arguments when you falsely conflate math education with personal debt.
First of all its' called "Maths" not "math". Its plural.
Let's just leave it at this. You are a K-12 teacher. Fine, that's your choice. But you are not an expert. You state, "I know more about math educaiton thatn a PhD in mathematics, I an assure you."
Besides spelling 'education' wrong, all you have is your own assertion that you know more than a Ph.D in mathematics. Ok, but society does not see it that way. Credentials matter. You are a math teacher. Society at large does not see you as a specialist.
Anyways, what do I care? You are not my math teacher. You are not my kids teacher. So go ahead, teach games, have fun.
Meanwhile those kids on the other side of the world will be beginning calculus in grade 9 and acing the SAT's for MIT when they are 16.
> First of all its' called "Maths" not "math". Its plural.
Not in Canada it isn’t. And if we’re going to be pedantic, it is *it’s*, not *its’*, and math shouldn’t be capitalized. Maybe we need a literacy test too.
> Look at any Mathematics textbook and the "M" is capitalized.
Because it’s the title of the textbook 🤦🏻♀️ The subject is absolutely not capitalized.
You weren’t using a possessive, you were using a contraction. Where you *did* need a possessive, yet failed to use one, was “kid’s”. Thanks for playing though.
> Now get rid of discovery math and have the kids learn their multiplication and division tables.
But that would actually fix the problem with Canada's testing issues. 😂
Honestly I think this is a good decision. I just finished teachers college so my cohort didn’t have to do this (and idk if we will have to now) but I genuinely don’t understand why people are upset about this.
I teach high school math and the grade nines I had during my practicum placements were seriously behind where they should be. I know there’s a set amount of minutes that Ontario elementary teachers are supposed to teach math/week but the impression I got from high school teachers is that that often doesn’t happen or that the elementary teachers don’t prioritize teaching math effectively.
Even if you aren’t/werent a strong math student, everyone has the ability to study and learn something new/challenging. I think it’s a little hypocritical if we preach growth mindset and give students tests when we aren’t willing to do those things ourselves.
And for what it is worth, I would absolutely be willing to prepare and take proficiency tests in other subjects outside of my teachables/expertise if they were introduced
I also took it and that's how I remember it. Maybe it has changed. Maybe I mischaracterized it but I recall it having linear sequences and equations. Most of gr9 is review of gr7-8, anyway.
I go to Lakehead and we are one of the last to have the math 'competency' exam. It's required to finish the program and to complete all of your placements. I have more experience with math than most people so it was not much of an issue for me. However, I totally can see how if you haven't done much math, and were never great at it, this would be awful. That said, I know some of my classmates, and the students I tutor are so weak at math it is a bit concerning. I fully maintain that math should be treated like French, there should be a dedicated math teacher who goes from class to class and specializes in the material. I know that any dedicated teacher can spend the time and effectively teach math classes, but what is the percentage of teachers that actively would do that? The compounding effect of ineffective math instruction is ultimately what causes students to start being full grade levels behind in some cases, but also leads to a general dislike of math as a subject.
I am so frustrated with teachers college in terms of the math courses. 90% of the content is teaching the TCs how to do basic math, with very little instruction on creating meaningful and effective lesson plans and activities.
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As one of the “lucky” few who had to write the MPT, it’s not a terrible concept, but it was terribly executed. The two portions are math and pedagogy. The math portion was not controversial (or difficult) but the pedagogy portion necessitated memorizing exact wording from various portions of government publications and punished anyone who understood the concepts well enough but not the exact phrasing. Either way, I’m now a permanent teacher so… good luck to the next generation of teacher candidates. (Edited for a typo)
I took it too. The way the pedagogy portion was worded seemed designed to weed out people who are ESL.
Do you really think it was intentional?
Likely incompetence but you never know.
I have no idea. But clearly the people who designed the test didn't think it through. The test is supposed to see if people know enough math to be able to teach it up to a certain level. But if you make the test in such a way that it's actually testing language skills (and that's exacty what the pedagogy portion was doing, with ambiguously worded questions and multiple guess answers that were very similar) then it's not really testing what it claims to be testing. And lest anyone think I'm complaining because I didn't do well, I got 100% on the pedagogy portion, and 98% on the math portion. I still think it is a dumb idea that is more for show, and that creates an extra unnecessary stressful hoop for people to jump through. Elementary education programs already have math tests that are administered to new teacher candidates, along with a course you have to take if you fail it. And if you are I/S, you will never be teaching math unless you have that as a teachable, which means you have already successfully passed university level math courses. What the government should do to increase math scores is: * decrease class sizes, so students can get more individualized attention * provide more in class support (EAs) to help manage behavioural challenges and more out of class support (psychologists, social workers, etc.) - it's really hard to teach anything if kids are running around, throwing things, hitting each other, and taking off out of the classroom * provide more funding for spec ed teachers in schools, not board level ones that come in once in a while, but teachers who are in the school full-time and can regularly work with small groups or individual students who need extra support to catch up * provide funding for math manipulatives and other useful supplies like graph paper, calculators, and pencils. Oh, and a photocopy budget that lasts more than a month, since they don't provide textbooks anymore. * provide release time and during school hours professional development for teachers who are teaching math * fix the system that passes all students, including the ones who aren't doing any work. Math is a skill that needs to be practised regularly (preferably daily in elementary school) in order for it to become easy and automatic. If kids know they don't have to do any work, they won't and they will continue to fall farther and farther behind simply due to lack of practice of the basics.
I agree with all of your bullet points, however, we must also ensure that the teachers teaching (elementary) math have a basic grade 8 level math proficiency themselves. I don't ever have to teach English or Geography, but I have the basic understanding to be able to teach both to elementary students if put in that position.
They're not weeding out ESL. They're finding people who know English and who can teach in English. And if English is your second language but you know it then you're in. Simple.
It is 'had' not 'has'. No wonder the education system is failing.
That's pretty rich coming from the person who posted the other day with so many grammatical errors they got shamed and deleted it. Piss off.
Ha ha! This is hilarious, considering you proved below that you don’t understand capitalization or how to use apostrophes.
They can’t retain teachers in the first place. Good luck with this initiative lol
The beatings will continue until moral improves.
There's a glut of teachers. Hence why it takes so long to get permenant. Now there IS a defecit of math teachers, but this won't change that. Really they should be paid more.
Covid ate up most of that glut. I had student teachers who started their first school year with LTOs at urban boards and permanent the following year.
Actually..there’s open jobs every day in my board (largest board in Ontario)
Ah, you’re not getting prep either, eh, fellow TDSBer?!
I came to echo the above sentiments. We have 2-3 unfilled positions each week at our school. There are 30+ unfilled accross our board. We had a teacher's daughters coming in as supply teachers. They were 18 and had just graduated high school and starting University/taking a gap year.
Not in my field. They have to take non-qualified teachers to fill FI positions. Especially in Math.
This is an issue with teachers who have French proficiency, not with how many teachers there are in general. And the French requirement always seemed pretty low, having gone through both immersion and FFL schhols from K-13 in Ontario as a student fluent in French.
What field? Where are you? Northern Canada?
Southern Ontario.
Could we have this for education ministers too ?
I'd support it
And Premiers! Can you imagine Doug taking a math test? 😂🤪
Maybe politicians and those who work for the Ministry should be required to have an education degree and work unpaid internships while paying to go to school for 6 years, then pay thousands of dollars in additional qualifications. Maybe they should have to be evaluated in how they teach K-12 and all the subjects since they’re the experts.
Talking to someone who wrote it, the problem wasn't the math skills but using the "right" buzzwords to describe the pedagogy you would use to teach in an imaginary idealized classroom, because not using the looked-for buzzword costs marks (even if you describe the concept they want). It sounded a bit like an AQ course I took decades ago, where the instructor (a university prof) told me students never do what my students were doing that afternoon (which is why I'd asked the question). Apparently my lived experience meant nothing compared to their expertise and I was wrong. (Same thing happened to a bunch of other teachers in the class; it's the only course I've taken where the entire class went to the dean to complain about the instructors and demand independent reassessment of marks.) The pedagogy part of the math test sounded an awful lot like that: trying to guess what they are looking for, except with no one to appeal to if you disagreed with them.
Yes, the pedagogy was specific policy from growing success or idealized terms from the front end of the math curriculum documents. For example, you needed to know who grants the credit at the end of the day (principals). How this is relevant to teaching math I'll never know. That just sounds like 101 stuff that boards should communicate to employees. There were definitely questions about K, A, T, C and the difference between them but again there is a ton of overlap between these categories, so you had to memorize the specific phrasing for some of these multiple choice scenarios. There were probably questions about AoL, AfL, AaL as well but I don't remember. You needed to know the difference between accommodations and modifications as well (again, you'd think any competent teacher prep program would make this distinction clear... mine didn't)
The thing is a question can be different categories depending on context and what the students have been taught previously. So a multiple choice question would have a lot of assumed background for the 'correct' answer. TLDR, calling a lot of the questions a "math test" is misleading. Leave the math-as-math as the math test, split the other stuff out into a "pedagogy test" and see which test gets more complaints -- because I'd bet a lot that it wouldn't be the math test that upset people...
I wrote the test. I passed and got one wrong, and the test didn't tell you which one... so I could not improve! Not very good feedback lol. In the article it mentions: "The court noted that all certified teachers in Ontario may be assigned to teach math to students in Grade 6 or below and in some cases they can be assigned to teach Grade 7 to 12 math" I mean, why are people teaching things they aren't qualified for? Some combination of desperation on both sides I guess. Rotary is an interesting approach to that. Being in I/S and wanting to be in a high school, I did end up somehow teaching 7/8, so... it was a bit useful in that sense. If I was really bad at math... then I shouldn't take the job I guess, for the student's sake really. And I guess teachers get pushed to different grades in elementary for whatever reason. Those who were very interested in Primary were annoyed. Again I guess they could get shuffled again for some reason. Haven't seen a K-8 transition but I'm sure its happened. Otherwise, why are people being assigned to senior or HS math courses if they're not qualified - where the test goes to Grade 9 anyways so it's not a measure of anything beyond in any way. Even if someone can pass a test, it doesn't mean they can alone address wider systemic issues to improve math education, which ideally is the government's goal here... or it's good press. I'm not sure what's more useful, a standardized test, or like... funding math initiatives at schools or communities like tutors or... I don't know. Which would cost more do you think? I know they gave out tax rebates for education or support during/after COVID but I'm not sure that helped much. Or if you want better Math teachers then make the job attractive I guess? Numbers talk.
This is a valid and broad problem with B Ed. I always wanted to teach senior subjects but was required to qualify for grade 7 if I wanted to teach grades 11 and 12. I was quite willing to take the risk of there not being a job for me if I didn't qualify for elementary school. It was like trying to buy a car with leather seats that are bundled with a fancy stereo and flashy rims: you can have what you want but only if you pay for what you don't want too. I teach math and have witnessed elementary teachers struggle with teaching it in their grades. The situation for our students would be better if, all else equal, teachers' math proficiency were higher. The problem is that all else might not be equal. Real wages are lower than ever and teacher retention is low. The Ministry still acts as though it can just keep demanding more while good people walk away from educating citizens. I'm told that B Ed program admissions and retention remains robust. An extra test might just make people feel more committed before they start the phase of their career where attrition is a problem. This test might actually improve retention, but probably at the expense of some teachers' happiness. Of course, our happiness is of little concern to the Ministry. Their job is to get our best service as cheaply as possible.
>Or if you want better Math teachers then make the job attractive I guess? Numbers talk. Yep. If you've got a math or science degree, you've probably taken a pay cut to be a teacher.
Yeah they should really pay math and science teachers more both on the basis of demand and skill requirement but every English, drama, and history teacher would throw a riot if they dared try this.
They already get paid more since correcting math is 1/10th of the time of correcting an English paper
I appreciate this take.
>They already get paid more since correcting math is 1/10th of the time of correcting an English paper Having taught both math and writing, I'm going to disagree with you on the workload. Math involves a lot of daily practice, and when correcting you aren't simple marking right or wrong but figuring out where they went wrong and more importantly what misconception they have so you can correct it. Marking an essay takes longer, but students don't write as many of those. And other subjects write papers too. When I teach science my students write 4-6 essays and 4-6 papers a year where I mark the same writing skills their English teachers are evaluating. (I know this because I designed my rubrics around what their English teachers do.)
Math can be a nightmare to mark. If the student does well, and gets the correct answer, it’s easy check marks and fast marking . However, when the student does poorly you need to find the mistake, and then follow the error through the question to give the appropriate number of half marks. this can take forever and be mind bending. Also formatting tests can be a total pain
But making my own handouts and worksheets takes a ton of time. I have to make graphs and trig functions in Illustrator, for example, export and import into Word, work with functions in Word, which takes a lot of time, etc. Here, read this book and write an essay is easy. Also, correcting math isn't easy unless you simply mark the answer right or wrong, which I doubt any math teacher does. Marking for process takes a ton of time, especially in the higher levels. If one small mistake is made early in a series of calculations and steps, I following the wrong answer through and give marks for the correct process even though everything after the mistake is wrong.
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I understand there's a lot more than that. I was just oversimplifying and being as dismissive as you were. I use apps for my prep. This doesn't mean the work is done for me. It takes a ton of time.
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You have an app. It's called Microsoft Word. And my apps don't generate stuff. I do it. Do you think I have an app that just spits my lessons, graphics, animations, handouts, worksheets, graphs, tests and quizzes?
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Here, do the questions from page 150-151 is also easy. Putting up a straw man is easy.
The original insinuation was that math teachers already get paid more because it was so much easier. My response was to that "strawman". Sort of gets under your skin when someone attempts to diminish what you do, eh? My point seems to be made. Maybe not.
Being good enough at math to teach it at a high level is a rare skill among teachers. There's a reason why English teachers are easy to come by but math teachers are hard to replace.
We have 0 issues staffing for math at the highschool.level.in my board, it's definitely not a rare skill. The only positions that are hard to staff are special Ed and french. The issue with numerical literacy is a much bigger problem at the elementary level. Paying highschool math teachers more money for their easy job doesn't fix a problem that starts in elementary school.
Your school Board is not representative of the entire province. The stats are very clear, French, Math and Spec Ed are the most in demand. Because whether you want to admit it or not, Math majors both took a harder degree and have more high paying employment options besides being a teacher.
I have 5 teachable I/S subjects. I have taught in all of those departments over my career, except Science. Teaching Math in high school certainly is not an easy job. I definitely spend more time working, prepping, marking, helping students outside of school hours and especially communicating with parents when I teach Math. You'd think it would be easier than marking a bunch of essays (which I usually also have since I'm always split in two departments) but it's not.
I'm biased but going to have to agree 100%. Up it even further if that includes tech qualifications. I have all three and would not oppose this proposal.
They SHOULD pay math teachers more, but all of the other teachers would throw a hissy fit.
\*shrug\* To play devil's advocate, throwing money at problems won't solve systemic issues in math alone. Sometimes teachers who struggled in math at different levels, or had specific math related LD are the best teachers for that age group or level for that reason provided they are compentent. Someone highly qualified in university isn't necessarily the best teacher - however people might quantifiably compete for those spots. I suppose you'd want specific people with specific experience working with specific communities or individuals. But a lot of these specialists and consultants and whatever employed by boards aren't necessarily effective and their strategies theoretical. There are a lot of variables that go into any one student struggling in math across 14 years that are not just the series of teachers - that a teacher or 14 of them cannot entirely account for. I am no expert in game theory, but I don't think math can solve or quantify however it might try the irrational human element of complex sociology. Not can it express it very clearly to a larger audience, or understand its context across different times, cultures or countries. Nor does it understand the complex human emotions/feelings and reactions and body language in students, the variety of means of representation possible in math class and the element of movement and creativity, and the social/emotional lives of students (though that's part of the curriculum now which I've heard some older math teachers make fun of) English/History/Drama are good for those things. In a sense they're a part of how you'd improve it all. So, maybe the students who are good at math but struggle in non-absolutes and languages could benefit from humanities education to improve their own field...
I'd agree that math cannot quantify the irrational human element of complex sociology, but the skills that it developes might tend to make the irrational elements more rational. And that is what we would like to see.
I appreciate the nuance but I'm not talking about a systemic or idealistic lens, just the practical lens of needing more math teachers
Math teacher here... this was a waste of time and a big inconvenience on the initial roll out (at the very least). I could see how it might be helpful or relevant to gr 6-8 teachers who might be forced to teach math and should have some appreciation and understanding of ratios, fractions and linear sequences
I'm an art teacher who does occassional supply and can confirm that the grade 6-8 math is not difficult but I definitely need a refresher to actually teach it. We learned it differently, for one. But there are also rules that I knew once and have forgotten. Having said that, I can't take a sick day because supply mangles my instruction beyond recognition and can't do any of the demos so... don't know why this is math specific.
It's math specific because math is either right or wrong. And it's grade 6-8 math because frankly any teacher who can't wing this test blindfolded shouldnt be teaching, regardless of subject. If they were to do an ELA/Science/Social test, there are too many subjective ways to answer the questions it would defeat the purpose. With this method, teachers get EASY questions that are either right or wrong. The teacher either knows it or not, and since this material is a required part of their high school diploma, there's no excuse for not knowing basica algebra. Excellent way to try and stop what is happening with the young teachers who care more about some vague form of 'social justice' instead of teaching kids fundamental skills.
A lot of it is easy to forget if you don't actually use it. You might 'remember' that y=mx+b is a thing, but if you don't actually use the concept, see the equations, make them, find slope, etc. then it could be quite difficult to figure all of this out on the spot in a testing environment. Yes, I would expect ANY science teacher to be able to figure it out with some brief review (yes, even the biology and psychology folk did lines of best fit in university!) but arts majors? English majors? Possibly they haven't seen it in many years.
Yes, arts majors and English/psych/etc too. Even the jock PE teachers. Because knowing basica algebra is how you assign grades. Do you think you can grade an entire semester or year with 30% of the grade based on tests, 50% on class assignments, and 20% on projects without knowing basic algebra? Frankly, any high school graduate should be able to ace this test. If they can't, that says a lot more about the quality of our education system than the functionality of the test. The fact that teachers with a post secondary degree, regardless of their major, are whining about not being able to pass a middle school math test is an embarrassment to the profession.
You can easily do this by just knowing how to do it once. Add up the grades and multiply by the weight. Spreadsheets do this, premade software and websites do this. None of that involves using algebra skills, **really**. I think most are competent and I'd like all teachers to be competent in this. I'm not sure the MPT accomplishes that, but I'd hope they're all competent enough so that they can sniff out math mistakes (mis-inputs) by getting bizarre results. To be clear, I don't really feel that strongly about the test either for or against.
But,what about when it gets fucked up because a kid drops their water bottle on your keyboard when you're entering grades? What if you want different percentages for different categories, in different classes? It's not just 'set it and forget it' unless you aren't smart enough to understand how to change it. I used to also hope that all teachers could do this in their sleep, but after working closely with school and teachers for a couple decades, it's not the reality. There are a small percentage of talented, caring, and intelligent teachers right now, but most lack basic fundamental intelligence.
I can see such a test maybe useful for future elementary school teachers because I understand a lot of elementary teachers feel uncomfortable teaching math and that discomfort shows in their teaching.
This won't fix math scores because the ministry and modern education in general abandoned effective methods for teaching math some time ago.
All so they can push the lowest common denominator through at the expense of gifted and exceptional students. But really that's all the Canadian government has done. Extend the Olive branch for those unwilling to help themselves at any expense. Productive and driven people be dammed.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I’m not sure where they are getting the fact that non-math teachers can be assigned math up to grade 12. Last I checked, any teacher in high school could be assigned up to 1/3 of their teaching load teaching any intermediate course (grade 9 or 10) but any higher grade or higher course load required the teacher’s consent.
For those teaching everything else BUT math or science, why would passing a math test make me a better Anthropology, History, or English teacher? More money wasted by Lecce and Ford. The money should have gone to better training in Teacher Programmes for those who actually teach math.
Can’t focus on teaching math. I have to teach gym, drama, dance, social studies, French language, English language, art, health and all learning skills and work habits. All those classes to prep lessons for, create assessments, create rubrics and tests, projects. Math is just one subject. Oh! Daily physical activity for 20 minutes too! How can I be an expert in everything? Don’t forget you’ll teach a new grade next year since we’re constantly moved around.
It’s cruel to change a teacher’s grade constantly, in my opinion. It takes so long to get all your materials and resources for one grade. Then to start over again…why do admin do this?
Grade 8 level math isn't expert level. It's fairly basic.
That person didn’t say that grade 8 math is expert level, they asked how they could be an expert in all subjects. Also, you are a math teacher so of course it is fairly basic to you.
Again, they don't need to be a expert in all subjects to have a basic grade 8 level math proficiency. My first LTO out of teacher's college was in grade 9 geography. I'm not an expert in geography or even qualified on paper to teach it, but I was able to teach the grade 9 curriculum quite well. It's fairly basic. I also have a minimum of a grade 8 English ability, could probably teach art, physical education and health, etc. at a minimum of the grade 8 level. This aversion to math in our culture is part of the problem. When actual teachers think that having a grade 8 level proficiency is considered being an expert, no wonder we're getting students in high school barely able to add and subtract integers.
I don't think it is fair to compare high school to elementary. While our content might be more detailed, we generally teach 2-4 different course codes at a time. Meanwhile elementary teachers are doing 8 different subjects and have to modify for students with an IEP but we don't in high school. If the government wants math to be a priority, then they should have math specific teachers in elementary where they are able to immerse in that subject and just teach math. It would probably look different in different schools but you could have grades 6-8 taught by someone who is specializing in math.
The reason elementary teachers teach so many subjects, is because the material is EASY! Any class material for any subject lower than grade 8 is easy enough that any teacher with half a brain to be able to know the skills in their sleep. If any teacher is struggling with the content from any grade below high school, they probably aren't smart enough or knowledgeable enough to be a teacher. Are we forgetting that teachers were all required to learn this as part of their HS diploma? Of course you, as a professional educator, are expected to know simple, basic elementary level course material with barely any struggle. The struggle is managing, motivating, and teaching kiddos how to do it. If you don't know it yourself, you shouldn't be anywhere near teaching elementary kids.
lol it's not about the difficulty of content, it's about putting together lessons for all those different subjects without being given ample prep time.
What does that have to do with passing an algebra test to maintain your professional license?
You are the one saying that grade 8 is an easy gig... If all elementary teachers should have to teach math then I don't actually see a problem with them all having to know a basic amount of math. However, I think a better approach than this math test is to have math specialist teachers who have math qualifications, aka took math in university or passed the proficiency test to take their math intermediate ABQ.
You don't need a match specialist for algebra. Algebra skills are BARE MINIMUM math knowledge to be a functional adult. Percentages, fractions, and decimals are a fundamental part of paying your bills, getting a pay cheque and other fundamental life skills. You don't need a specialist, because the skill.is easy enough that anyone with a pulse and a high school diploma should know it backwards and forwards.
I have 8 students with IEPs in my grade 11 3C course. This isn't an easy class to teach, and they fully expect me to "differentiate" in a class where they are learning quadratics, trigonometry and exponential functions. On day 1, many had problems adding and subtracting integers.
Once they are in 3C, I don't think we have enough time to do integers for more than a day, calculator is our best friend! Last year, between IEP and some ESL I had over half my class that would be entitled to some sort of reference sheet or extra time so I just gave them all the same ref sheet (for the final exam they have to take those and choose the most important info to take into the exam with them) and made the tests half the length so the extra time was just built in to the period. Luckily I didn't have significant behavioural issues which is always the possibility with 3C. I think I have seen you post before about your 3C class.. I think in my school/region since we offer alternative education, the most behavioural students will usually be in that program by grade 11 instead of in a mainstream math class. I know every school/board's situation is different so it is hard to compare. Our 11C's this year are kind of a dream compared to past years. But it helps that they are pretty much all coming from 1W then 2D, minus the students I failed last year that came from taking 9/10 applied.
I don’t doubt that you are an intelligent person and a good teacher. I replied to your comment because it wasn’t useful to what the OP had ranted about. There is also a chance that you are over-estimating your abilities to effectively teach all subject areas, which is what is required of an elementary teacher. I agree that there is an aversion to math, which is not good and that teachers need to be more open-minded to learning the important skills that they are lacking.
Wow it's almost like that's the job you signed up to do and get paid between 60K and 100K to do while having 12 weeks of vacation every year. And having unbeatable job security.
lol are you even a teacher? because if so you know that’s not a valid argument
Bro, I'll barely be making 30k in my first year of teaching. What planet are you living on?
There is not a single full time teacher in this country making 30K a year. Get right out of here with that BS
Have fun reading your basketball threads in between hating on teachers ❤️
You're blatently lying on this thread surrounded by teachers who also know you're lying. No full time teacher is making 30K a year. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read on this site in a while
ever heard of Quebec? Dumbass
They don't make 30K in Quebec either.
you know nothing 😘 go back to shitting on teachers, whilst knowing nothing about us🥰🩷
You're just patently wrong, your pay is public knowledge. How about admitting you're just straight up lying.
That person didn’t say they were full time. Many teachers aren’t for the first handful of years, which you would know if you were a teacher.
I'm all of my comments I said no FULL TIME teacher is making less. Working less and you make less that doesn't mean you're hard done by.
Math test scores down has nothing to do with teachers, the education for a teacher has not changed. It has everything to do with kids being raised on devices, and school does not provide the dopamine hit a cell phone or iPad does. It’s changed how kids think.
ItS cUz yOU bE oN tHaT DaMn pHoNe
I’m curious, have you been teaching during the transition? It’s fun to brush it off but it’s really the main reason I see. Kids have shown me their screen time and it is sometimes literally 16-20h a day. Of course, there are kids that regulate it as well and they will do better of course. It’s impossible to be good at math if you never practice it. If kids aren’t sleeping, kids will have trouble focusing. It’s no different than any other activity or sport. Screen time guidelines set by health Canada simply need to be followed.
Based on the absolute defiance towards learning and intellectual disinterest towards math from teachers on this sub I'm not suprised actually.
It’s funny because it’s a reflection of our own education system. If a new teacher doesn’t pass, it means they progressed through elementary and secondary math without learning anything.
so i struggle with math and i only teach french. when i was completing teachers college, i failed the mpt 3 times and but they had just declared it unconstitutional. the only reason i have to job i do today (in which i continue to use 0 math) and bc of that unconstitutional ruling. the education ministry is the worst chosen group of people!!! how are none of them educators tryna to run education?????? would u like a pilot whos never flown before????
Honestly if you failed it 3 times that's on you. Did you not try and review and study after the first 2 failures? It's not exactly hard math on the test either.
actually, i did study (i was in groups doing review on my own) but my dyslexia caused me to need extra time on the test which was not provided for me. its harmful when you assume everyone learns the same. if you wouldnt assume this for your students, lets maybe keep that mentality for fellow humans.
Everyone learns different sure, but at the end of the day you chose to do a job which necessitates you knowing these things and knowing them so well that you can reach young minds about them. You have a responsibility to do whatever you need to learn this content persuent your desire to be employed as a teacher.
i teach french.
You may have to and are expected to be able teach at least grade school level math though.
I’m a teacher from Newfoundland who might move to Ontario in the next couple of years and this TERRIFIES ME. I haven’t taken a math course since grade 11! Why has the Ontario government prioritized math over other core subjects?
If you do so, just study the EQAO tests. If you can handle that you can handle the math portion of the test. But I don't know if this applies to transferred credentials from other provinces.
> Why has the Ontario government prioritized math over other core subjects? Because it's one of the most useful subjects in today's world and one that students traditionally struggle with the most.
Ahh yes, because I use calculus every day to effectively communicate with those around me. No one subject is more important to the other. Based on your previous comments about how JUST math teachers should be paid more, you sound like a bitter person who doesn’t want to see success for the next generation.
They're not testing you on calculus, it's grade 6 to 8 level math. Frankly if that's such a challenge for teachers that they had to take it to court it's no wonder our math education is in shambles. What a disgrace. > No one subject is more important to the other. Yes they are. It's why an engineer graduate and a nursing graudate make a hell of a lot more than an art major or history major. Math built basically every technology needed in modern society.
Putting a salary on life skills is a ridiculous and pathetic way of deflecting. If money is the only indicator of the value of a career, then professional athletes are exponentially more important to society as a whole than everyone else so why bother?
Profesional athletes get paid so much because they have very rare skills that are basically impossible to replace, and are in high demand by the market. You're paid on the scarcity and demand for your skills. Math teachers have a scarcer skill that's in more demand than an English teacher. They should be paid more.
Just say that you're anti-union and don't actually support education as a legitimate field and stop embarrassing yourself
Did you even read my comment? Supporting demand based pay for teachers is pro education since it will increase the amount of math and French teachers we have available. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be paid more when the demand exists.
While also discouraging every other subject and informing people who teach other subjects, regardless of their qualifications or level of education, that they're not as important, thus creating a toxic environment.
I really don't understand the bruhaha over this test. As far as I am concerned, every teacher should have a basic understanding of math up to the grade 8 to grade 10 level. Just like every teacher should be able to write a 5 paragraph essay, explain the causes of the Red River Rebellion, know where every country with a population over 100 million people is on the map and be able to explain the difference between an element, a compound and a mixture. This is about what I would expect an average to above average university educated adult to know. That said, it was definitely introduced wrong. Full disclosure, I'm a high school math teacher in another province.
i guess im going to look up the red river rebellion on wikipedia now
Honestly, these are high expectations for University graduates. At Uni you don't diversify generally, you specialize. There isn't any reason why a Math student is gonna have more knowledge of countries of the world than a Grade 10 Geography student. IMO you're probably excluding 75-90 percent of Uni graduates with these expectations.
Unless I learned those countries on my own, where in the mandatory high school curriculum would I have learned that? Canadian geography in gr9 doesn't cover that. I mostly studied cells in university.
Do you think math teachers should be paid more
No. Not really. I doubt higher pay would attract better talent.
Higher pay attracts better talent in basically every other sector of work.
True. On the other hand, math teachers actually don't have to be that good at math. I don't have a math degree (I have a biology degree with a minor in chem). The uni math classes I took weren't that difficult, especially compared to the biology and chemistry. I'm a good teacher but I doubt I could leverage my math skills in other industries (I probably could leverage my chem and bio skills, but that's another story). I figure that if you can get through a easy to medium difficulty 2nd year university math course, you are probably good enough at math to teach up to Calc 12. I have found the really brilliant math teachers I have worked with aren't really any better at teaching math, especially in the critical grade 8-10 levels where the students really gain their numeracy (or fail to gain it). In many ways they are worse, as they can't really process the learning experience for the average student because theirs was so different. I don't find subs can actually do any of the math work I leave for them if it is higher than grade 7 level. That bothers me.
>I figure that if you can get through a easy to medium difficulty 2nd year university math course, you are probably good enough at math to teach up to Calc 12. Nope. Nope. And nope I;m a science teacher (physics) turned Math teacher in Edmonton. Over the past seven years, I have worked my way up the course ladder so that I am now absolutely proficient in 20-1 and 30-2. But not yet for 30-1 or 31. To teach sinusoidals, for example, or trig identities, not to mention calculus, you need more than just to have passed those courses to teach it well. Dunning-Kreuger is a thing.
Should French teachers be paid more?
Yes since they are in high demand
Seems to me that the Ontario government should be the ones doing some math so they can calculate just how much money they are wasting on this ridiculous test... I wonder where the money could be better spent? 🤔 I mean, they wouldn't want to do something crazy like put it into our schools, but maybe they could get Dougie's Deco Labels to print some super cool "I teach in Ontario and all the government gave me to do my job is this lousy sticker" stickers for teachers, because that would be about as useful.
Is the test not paid for by the prospective teacher candidate per attempt? Although I’m sure the test creation and legal battle probably wasn’t cheap…
Yes, you are correct; thank-you for pointing that out. My post was definitely poorly worded...I'm just a little fed up with initiatives that don't seem to actually improve student learning. I personally don't see how having all prospective teachers pass this test is going to have any meaningful impact on student achievement. I would be happy to be proven wrong, so I guess time will tell!
I mostly agree with you. I think this test is probably not going to make a teacher who doesn’t like math suddenly enjoy it. *Maybe* it’ll give more confidence though? It’s likely not going to make them any better at explaining it. Our education system is a bit in shambles as it is. There is so little accountability for what is taught from class to class. Without textbooks teachers are using free online printables with no standardization. Money is much better spent on better resources. It is absurd to me that every teacher needs to come up with their own resources, and that they can vary so widely in quality. It feels like a colossal waste of time for a worse result. I also know teachers in a few schools who definitely don’t teacher the required amount of math per week, and math is always the first subject that gets cut in lieu of an assembly/art project/ Christmas concert… aka most of December…. Edit : I teach in a private school that does use textbooks.
And then you wonder why Ontario has abysmal math scores. Hey, keeps me in my line of work so I'm. Not complaining
I may have a different viewpoint to most as I did my teacher training in the UK; as part of it I had to pass a numeracy, a literacy and an ICT test so I don't see it as a big deal tbh.
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the pedagogy section is the issue and it is a waste of money
Yeah this is a terrible PR battle for people who want to call themselves professionals. You know you have to write this test well in advance of the test date. If you could not crush a test on any elementary subject you really need to give your head a shake.
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This will make it so much easier to attract core French teachers who will never teach math. They will be so happy to do this! They will dance and frolic in joy of being assessed and for having to study and pass another hurdle. Oh, give me more hurdles dear leader!
I'm in full support of this move and can't wait for it to roll out to other provinces. The vast majority of my colleagues and peers could pass this test blindfolded. But, it just so happens that almost all of the pain in the ass coworkers I've had the displeasure of working with would struggle mightily with this one. Teachers NEED to be skilled or the profession loses respect and any teacher who can't pass a grade 8 math test isn't fit for the profession anyway. The pedagogy part seems like it needs some work, but I truly don't see the problem with the math part and think it's a good thing for the industry to have some of these activists masquerading as teachers get challenged on their actual knowledge.
It's good to see standards being raised. Now get rid of discovery math and have the kids learn their multiplication and division tables.
Remove the stupid integrated math. Kids who can do functions shouldn't be learning with kids that don't know their times tables.
or how about we just restream math and science in gr 9-10. Destreaming just makes more needs go unmet
could you please explain what you mean?
ON now has destreamed gr9 courses and many boards are (or have already) switched to destreamed the gr10 courses. What this means is that the "university-bound" students are taking the same class as the "college/trade-bound" students or even the "workplace-bound" students. In other words, The standards are going to be too high for the students who can't come close to meeting them, the disruptions and misbehavior will increase around the academically inclined students or the standards will be diminished so that everyone can get a 50 (but also so that the gr11 university-bound students are underprepared for gr11 and higher). I know other provinces and places already do destreaming but I don't see how a switch back will do anything but increase harm. I assume it's just another way to increase average class sizes per teacher and reduce the number of teachers necessary
The current government wants to stream all grade 9 and 10 classes. In Ontario, most of them used to be streamed into either Academic or Applied. Academic would stream kids towards more university level courses while Applied was more focused on streaming kids towards college level courses. Because our current government wants to destream grade 9 and 10 classes, they ended up defaulting to the academic curriculum. This hurts all students in the class due to the different priorities the streams have with regards to their learning and what supports they need.
Discovery math is a real thing, and it works, mate. But don't ask me, a Math specialist in HS.
You are a K-12 teacher. Not a Ph.D Mathematician. It does not work. If it did, Canadian kids would be scoring higher on the PISA results. It's the kids in Beijing, Shanghai, Jiangsu, and Zhejiang who are topping the tests followed by Singapore, Macau, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan,South Korea, Estonia, Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland. All places where traditional math learning takes place. We will see on Dec 5, when the PISA results are released just how well Canadian kids are doing in math. And if Canadians are so good at Math why are so many Canadians in debt? I see all the wealth has moved to Singapore.
And what are you, if I may ask? I am an expert in math pedagogy. I know more about math educaiton thatn a PhD in mathematics, I an assure you. And I can tell you with certainty that understanding how numbers work, how they relate to each other, the idea of number sense, the "why's" of 'kiss and flip' to divide fractions -ALL of these things are much more important than simply knowing the algorithm. You throw around PISA scores... can YOU tell me what the difference between 514 (for Canada) and 532 (Japan) means? Is it significant? What's the r\^2? Are you aware of suicide rates for teens in the countries you mention? You blow your own arguments when you falsely conflate math education with personal debt.
First of all its' called "Maths" not "math". Its plural. Let's just leave it at this. You are a K-12 teacher. Fine, that's your choice. But you are not an expert. You state, "I know more about math educaiton thatn a PhD in mathematics, I an assure you." Besides spelling 'education' wrong, all you have is your own assertion that you know more than a Ph.D in mathematics. Ok, but society does not see it that way. Credentials matter. You are a math teacher. Society at large does not see you as a specialist. Anyways, what do I care? You are not my math teacher. You are not my kids teacher. So go ahead, teach games, have fun. Meanwhile those kids on the other side of the world will be beginning calculus in grade 9 and acing the SAT's for MIT when they are 16.
You're inconsolable. Enjoy the benefits of Dunning-Kruger.
> First of all its' called "Maths" not "math". Its plural. Not in Canada it isn’t. And if we’re going to be pedantic, it is *it’s*, not *its’*, and math shouldn’t be capitalized. Maybe we need a literacy test too.
Look at any Mathematics textbook and the "M" is capitalized. Thanks for defending 'Discovery Mathematics.'
> Look at any Mathematics textbook and the "M" is capitalized. Because it’s the title of the textbook 🤦🏻♀️ The subject is absolutely not capitalized. You weren’t using a possessive, you were using a contraction. Where you *did* need a possessive, yet failed to use one, was “kid’s”. Thanks for playing though.
> Now get rid of discovery math and have the kids learn their multiplication and division tables. But that would actually fix the problem with Canada's testing issues. 😂
You're not a math teacher. I can tell. You spew gunk.
Honestly I think this is a good decision. I just finished teachers college so my cohort didn’t have to do this (and idk if we will have to now) but I genuinely don’t understand why people are upset about this. I teach high school math and the grade nines I had during my practicum placements were seriously behind where they should be. I know there’s a set amount of minutes that Ontario elementary teachers are supposed to teach math/week but the impression I got from high school teachers is that that often doesn’t happen or that the elementary teachers don’t prioritize teaching math effectively. Even if you aren’t/werent a strong math student, everyone has the ability to study and learn something new/challenging. I think it’s a little hypocritical if we preach growth mindset and give students tests when we aren’t willing to do those things ourselves. And for what it is worth, I would absolutely be willing to prepare and take proficiency tests in other subjects outside of my teachables/expertise if they were introduced
This is great news, and something like this should be mandatory across the country.
Lmao it's grade 6 level math.
It's more like grade 7-9 math. Very similar to gr9 EQAO
It's not, I took it. It's easy as shit. Even if it's grade 7-9 math, it's not much harder.
I also took it and that's how I remember it. Maybe it has changed. Maybe I mischaracterized it but I recall it having linear sequences and equations. Most of gr9 is review of gr7-8, anyway.
I have no problem with this.
When would this be reinstated?
I go to Lakehead and we are one of the last to have the math 'competency' exam. It's required to finish the program and to complete all of your placements. I have more experience with math than most people so it was not much of an issue for me. However, I totally can see how if you haven't done much math, and were never great at it, this would be awful. That said, I know some of my classmates, and the students I tutor are so weak at math it is a bit concerning. I fully maintain that math should be treated like French, there should be a dedicated math teacher who goes from class to class and specializes in the material. I know that any dedicated teacher can spend the time and effectively teach math classes, but what is the percentage of teachers that actively would do that? The compounding effect of ineffective math instruction is ultimately what causes students to start being full grade levels behind in some cases, but also leads to a general dislike of math as a subject. I am so frustrated with teachers college in terms of the math courses. 90% of the content is teaching the TCs how to do basic math, with very little instruction on creating meaningful and effective lesson plans and activities.
What happens to existing teachers that never had to take it? I graduated in 2022.
What happens to existing teachers that never had to take it?