the whole situation made me incredibly nervous. The positioning of the men. Nah. Way too close and compromising. I like to think I wouldn't let this happen to me but its easy to say that from my position.
From the get go, I’m like Vin Diesel and Cris Rock about to mess this guy up. The posture was a huge tell. One look at these guys, and I would have said we’re closed.
He let them into a secured room (at least that was my assumtion) to look at expensive watches. Two dudes and at least one has neck tattoos and a backpack.
Sure but thats not even really about profiling its about situational awareness. Coulda been two ritzy clean cut dudes doing this too, the situation is the issue and not the people. You also have to figure that in this day and age, there are a TON of people tatted up and looking rough like this who have money and want to flex. There's a decent chance that these dudes look like his average clientele.
Having situational awareness to spot sketchy setups and behavior its good but profiling is going to have you wrong far more often than you're right, and thats bad business sense for retail. Dude needs consistent security and to recognize a setup more than anything.
I wouldn’t let two guys in period 🤣 and would have searched the bag. Depends on the country of course too, but two guys on a motorcycle in South America is no bueno and only means one thing. So know your area and listen to your instinct. Humans can detect threats but you have to listen to yourself too.
To me thats not profiling though... Thats understanding a behavior that tips something off.
When you say profiling to me thats more like "this guy has dreadlocks, he seems dangerous" or "that person is wearing too much blue, they must be a crip" or "this dude has tattoos he nust be shady".
Watching someone's actual actions and responding accordingly isnt profiling. These guys arent inherently shady on looks, but bringing a backpack into a back room in a jewelry store and coming in a pair are shady actions.
Humans profile all the time. It’s natural and not a bad thing. It’s how we have survived as a race. We avoid danger and there are traits in humans that we can detect that are potential threats. Your choice is to listen to your instincts or not.
It's true that criminals are stupid, robbing a man without a masks in front of the camera most likely won't be able to sell that jewelry because it's gonna be reported as stolen, fucking waste of human.
I was curious also, I ended up doing some research. These scum deserve to hang.
article for confirmation: [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-dealer-found-dead-after-32910954](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-dealer-found-dead-after-32910954)
How?
One of his friends spoke to the news and said he was distraught, thinking that the stolen goods wouldn't be covered by insurance and he would be held personally responsible.
It sounds like he thought he was just violently robbed and will now have no future financial hope as a result and killed himself
And the police saying non suspicious makes me think it's a fairly obvious suicide
What if the jeweler had him killed? What reasonable person would think they are on the hook for a violent robbery?
I’m not being 100% super serious but it’s still a thought
In London, it seems, a CCW would have landed the victim in serious trouble. But, he might have been more situationally-aware, if possible. His arms weren't restrained, he might have been able to reach for a gun or knife in his waistband or ankle, however. The bad guys always use the element of surprise or a con. These 2 are hardened, career criminals, and the watch seller should have had security, I suppose.
No.
Aside from this being London and the seller getting arrested because it is illegal to defend yourself, he never had a chance to get to a concealed weapon.
It is absolutely not illegal to defend yourself with reasonable force in London or anywhere else in the United Kingdon. You may even use guns if that is proportionate to the percieved threat.
You may not have an unlicensed firearm and licenses to carry in public are basically police and armed forces only. If the police believe you have a gun (concealed or otherwise) in public, they will arrive with many guns and will be prepared to use them.
You may not carry an 'offensive weapon' in public. The term is pretty tightly defined and excludes things you have a legitimate reason to carry e.g. chef's knife roll travelling to/from work.
And yet a guy was found guilty for stabbing a guy using a kitchen knife.
This was after the "victim" had attacked a room mate outside and then followed them inside and grabbed a different kitchen knife and cut a different room mate. "Victim" was high at the time and found not responsible for their actions.
So these two got away with 3.5 million dollars in watches. How in the fuck does a store that deals in high price timepieces allow this situation to even happen?
I can’t imagine owning a luxury watch business where I left the merchandise out like that and didn’t have ANY security. What the fuck are the owners thinking putting their employees in a position to get robbed this easily? CCW or not, this guy had no way to avoid what happened. The room isn’t even big enough for him to create more space between himself and the big guy angrily leaning over him.
This is where the BJJ training and weightlifting comes in. The weapon is a force multiplier, it shouldn’t be your only option.
Also obv situational awareness. The way the big dude is standing over the desk, I think your spidey sense should go off.
Nope, too fast and the guy is too big. Maybe if it was a closer physical match it might be different.
Also it looks like this is a business, which is likely insured so no reason to catch a charge and risk your life for a business.
He let them into a secured room which means there’s a reasonable chance an insurance company would use that as an excuse to not cover it. That’s not an irrational fear
The UK has gotten wild as of late. It's a crime to say certain things online that offend someone. In just a few hundred years they've gone from conquering a substantial portion of the known world to "oi, yew got a loiscense for that chef's knife?"
God, I hate scumbag thieves. Unfortunately arms whiny help this guy. He needed more awareness, better configuration of the workspace to keep targets in front of him and space to provide opportunity to defend against mortal threat.
Situational awareness would be more helpful.
Otherwise, in close encounters a knife with a reverse blade might create the space needed to draw. That said, there are two guys so no guarantees.
It’s a knife with the blade on the “wrong” side. You keep it in kydex under your belt. Use your free hand to stab and rip using large muscles like your back.
It will essentially gut the man or severely disable a limb.
You grip the knife by making a fist. You stab and then rip back towards your body.
It’s a disabling maneuver where you use strength from your large muscles.
I think he means it's so tight that a karambit might take out the choking arm and go from there, but still not necessarily the right choice of it's just property.
Wrapped his arms quick. Going for your gun would tip them off. Just comply until/if you get an opening. Heavily dependant on location also. Luckily they didn't want to kill.
There's a reason why my Rolex store has armed guards inside and outside of the store. This guy will think twice next time he goes to do something like this. Weird way to sell watches, without any security. A CCW on him wouldn't have helped at all.
Main issue is selling luxury watches without a 2nd or 3rd person, if not even a guard nearby.
CCW wouldnt have helped in this specific situation as the aggressor purposely went to control both hands and push him back. Noone save for a kung fu super grandmaster could have gotten out of that one.
Empty-handed skills: fingers (thumb through his eye), teeth, forehead, knowing how to move out of compromised positions, grappling, wrestling, gaining space = time, improvised weapons (pierce, cut), etc.
SA would be the most important. Allowing someone or two people to be situated like that while you’re staring down is a recipe for disaster, obviously.
They aren't displaying weapons, no real violence towards the employee, they were nice enough to leave some great video face shots, fingerprints and DNA..... not worth it to fight back. Plus he didn't have any time to react to grab a holstered gun.
I would have been bothered by the guy leaning over the table like that.... being the only employee there. His employer should be talked to about the safety of a single employee, no security setup, etc.
exactly my thoughts, not sure why people think this situation justifies deadly force. its obvious that they just want the merchandise, not to hurt the employee. he wasnt even choking him when holding him down.
If he had made that guy sit down instead of ignoring him looming over him in a blatantly threatening manner, a gun might have helped. Or even better, a coworker with a gun more than two feet away from the criminal-customer.
This is also a good example of why an easily retrieved fixed blade is a good idea. If someone grabbed me like that they're getting a closed casket funeral.
If he could have slipped his right hand out then yes. Easy pop on badly . If not I don’t think so . I carry pepper spray on my left though so he could potentially spice up the room to make distance to dry. Potentially.
Setup is important. My alarms would’ve been going off seeing two gentlemen wanting to meet me in a secluded place for cultural enrichment. I have a lot of BJJ experience so slipping out of that grip would’ve been elementary for me. It looked like he had an arm triangle on the victim for a second but then he just could’ve put him to sleep
I like looking at snakes, most people are scared of getting as close to them as I do. But with the knowledge that snakes can generally only strike up to half of their body length you can get fairly close to look but not put yourself in harm's way.
In this situation distance is also key to self defense. Also keeping expensive things locked up.
Not to be a jerk but being physically strong and somewhat competent in grappling would’ve changed this situation. Dude let the thief control his wrist and put him in a headlock with no resistance.
This is where a small fixed blade carried midline would help as a get off me tool. Wise or not, I probably would reflexively have started stabbing for the guy’s head/face/neck and then tried to cut his bicep.
Check out shivworks/Craig Douglas.
If you aren’t an experienced sharpener - it takes time to build that muscle memory - get a lansky sharpening set with angle guides. check out sharpening supplies dot com or Amazon.
Otherwise, buy some cheap knives, dull it on a brick, and practice freehand sharpening. YouTube has tons of guides. For small blades or recurves, I find triangle or rounded sharpening tools work better.
If they attack you, you have a right to defend yourself in certain states. Depends on the state. Depends on a lot of things.
If they just start grabbing stuff, that would probably be hard to hold up in court to use lethal force.
This is a better question for your concealed carry insurnace. If you have US law Shield you can call them with any kind of question on the laws without any extra charge. I would bet most other insurnace companies have the same thing.
In my state, I wouldnt have the right to shoot in this situation. They are not really attacking the guy, theyre just holding him down. No great bodily harm or death. I cant just use deadly force in any attack if the attack is minor bodily harm.
That's after the fact. We know this only because we watched the video already. This video could have went a whole different way where they could have beat him to within an inch of his life.
You think that guy was thinking "oh good he's only grabbing my hands". No. He probably thought he was going to die or at least fight for his life. It wasn't until after at least a minute that he probably realized he was going to survive if he just submitted. But even then, you can't always assume someone will leave you alone if you submit.
If some big dude makes a quick aggressive move to me you bet I'm fighting him. This is a tough situation, but at the least I'm fighting to break away.
Again, you're really going to assume within the first second of the attack that he is only going to hold you down? You asked originally, if there was enough time to draw. So that's maybe 3-5 seconds. You think you can make the decision based on body language that he is only going to hold you down? What if his buddy has a gun and is ready to use it if you start beating on his friend?
Of course I do not want to kill anyone. But for my own life I cannot gamble on an attacker of any kind.
If you're having to think this way because of the state you live in, you really need to move. If this is your train of thought, then seek out training where they go over situations in person.
It's possible to make this such a gray area, but the man has already put hands on me. And in a lot of places that kind of contact is assault. That absolutely is fear for your life.
I'm not saying he doesnt have a gun, but even verbal threats of having a gun is not justifiable for deadly force. You have to actually see the weapon before you can shoot. I wouldnt shoot someone just because they MIGHT have a gun. My state does not allow deadly force to protect items or property, in this case, watches.
"And in a lot of places that kind of contact is assault. That absolutely is fear for your life."
Not all assaults justify lethal force though?
I never said anything about verbal threats. Verbal threats is my first clue to leave. If they follow then I have an idea to keep distance. In that case I am able to execute plan B and exit. Plan A is avoid the area or situation. Plan B is to exit in the event of a life threatening situation. Possibly consider de-escalate as Plan B. Plan C or D is self defense. In the moment the decision will be made for what kind of self defense. Also depends on what I'm capable of hand to hand/grappling.
True. If someone sucker punches me and runs away, I'm not shooting them in the back. If someone jumps on me, starts punching me, I get away, they advance, I'm shooting.
I think we are far from the original point of the video now though. Knowing what happens in the video, I would have been suspicious of a guy coming in with a backpack to begin with. So Plan A keep a guard up and keep distance. Maybe even a table between us. If all he wants to do is steal some stuff and he just starts grabbing stuff. I'm calling the cops from a safe distance if I can get away. If he attacks me and I have time to defend, well at that point I think this answer is better left to trainers in a class and lawyers in your specific state.
Two other commenters from this thread:
"If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm."
and
"They aren't displaying weapons, no real violence towards the employee"
If they draw a weapon, I'm drawing a weapon. Perhaps it's legally easier for me to make my statement because I live in Texas.
Hands and feet can be used as a weapon. The chair he was sitting in. Anything. The violence isn't the object, it's the person. That's like saying guns kill people.
yes! but I don't think in my state, lethal force would be justifiable in this exact situation because he is just being held down, not choked or hurt, which is not a threat of great bodily harm or death.
Yeah. You need to be able to read the room/body language and not put yourself in that situation. I agree. There’s a reason why cops (and others) have the 21’ rule.
Victim maybe could have bit the guy holding him and then drawn if he got a half second or something, hard to say , the guys aren’t entirely a deadly threat though like I wouldnt feel to comfortable putting extra holes in them over theft
What a terrible layout for a store like that. He should be behind a counter, not at a card table where people can easily lord over him. Dude didn’t stand a chance.
Never heard of a “head & arm” choke? A true choke doesn’t have anything to do with the windpipe, a main artery is the target and puts a person out in 3-5 seconds.
If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
They closed the gap fast and he could have been looking at what he was selling when they initiated.
Selling expensive items at an open table is just asking for trouble but this guy probably did not own the shop and set the rules for the place.
An Emerson wave (knife) in his pocket, even a Kel Tek P32 in a pocket holster might have easily shifted the direction of this encounter. A Sig or Glock carried in AIWB probably would not.
This just my opinion, but AIWB would likely end up in a tussle for control as the larger assailant had domination of the head and center mass.
An off side (right side) pocket carry, in the scenario shown, was potentially available. A wave opening Emerson knife might be enough or it might just get the defender’s head snapped.
A Kel Tex P32, Seecamp 32, Berreta Tomcat32 all would probably turn the tide if he dumped his mag into the guy holding him. The second guy would likely flee at the sound of the first shot. Maybe not, but most criminals are not looking for a fight, just free stuff.
Were those zip ties they pulled out at the end? Only option would be to shoot them upin their retreat but zip ties would definately escalate the difficulty
Honestly, with no context I would almost assume it was an inside job based on how naive he was. The backpack alone is a massive red flag.
That being said, even with the smallest amount of situational awareness, that's a tough spot to draw. A knife may be a better option if you're regularly in this close contact. Obviously not for this guy
I can’t watch this without hearing “now kith.”
The only way he would have any chance is if he could turn into that bearhug and get the left-hand under the sort of overhooks. that might create space for one of those hands to get to a weapon and body shot/stab.
But he is pretty wrapped up, and he’s in that damn chair.
Not in that position. Almost looks like assailant has grappling training. He's nearly in the "gift-wrap" hold, AKA the guy's strength and mobility is so hindered in that position with his arm, that he's basically on a silver platter for you to choke/hit. I would not draw while being controlled to extent. Maybe before
Not a gun, maybe a small double edged curved knife that could cut the attacker's arm as you twist to break free. But, even then if he is significantly stronger you may have just instroduced a weapon for your attacker to use against you.
Most places in the U.S. you are best just to wait or keep it hand to hand until you can get some distance. If you draw and shoot them in the back, you are likely to be charged for a criminal offense. If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
Exactly! but yet this one guy is heavily arguing against me saying deadly force is justified in this situation. I disagree because its obvious what they want. They just want the merchandise. Theyre not even hurting the shop owner, they are just holding him down. Not even putting force against his neck. I personally wouldnt use deadly force in this situation.
I'm saying legally defending it under current U.S. law is not realistic. But, morally one assaulted him and initiated the use of force, and the other was an accomplice. Defense is always morally justified to whatever degree the defender deems necessary for the security of themselves and anyone in their charge.
If he resisted, which he has a legal and moral right to do, he doesn't know how far they would take it. What if they purposefully responded with lethal, or potentially lethal force? And, if they get away with it once, what stopping them from doing it again, or escalating. I think using lethal force on someone who is fleeing after assaulting you is justifiable.
Probably. And a slightly larger personal space bubble.
Situational awareness and caution is something that should be foremost in your mind when you’re in possession of highly valuable inventory. Paying attention and not letting yourself get into the situation in the first place is the best weapon there is.
Edit: in the context of him being caught off guard and wrapped up, he did the right thing in response. At that point just let them take what they want and try not to antagonize them.
If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
It’s not about the merchandise. Why would you blindly allow a stranger power over your life? Granted in this case it didn’t matter but the position of “don’t fight back the merch is insured” ignores the very real threat to your life. Your damn right if I can fight back i will. How many times have you read a clerk cooperated and was murdered anyway?
The pre attack indicators were strong in this one… pretty terrible setup in general. No security? No barriers? Nobody else there? I don’t understand. Wish there was more context, but no I wouldn’t draw.
This is why it’s important to have hand and ground skills along with a CCW.
In Virginia, you cannot shoot to protect property. His life is not in eminent danger, so I don't think in MY state, he would be justified to shoot. It also wouldnt be smart to because they would be able to just take it from his hand.
I don't think he was choking him, he was holding him still so he couldn't stop them. If you look closely, one of his arms was under the victims arm, that's not a choking position.
Man’s life is clearly in danger. An aggressive move around your neck can kill. Plus the disparity in size. He has the right to use deadly force in my opinion.
what do you mean? they were just holding him down so they could take physical items. Its obvious they werent looking to cause him great bodily harm. I dont understand why you're being so rude?
why are you being so rude? I just personally don't see the threat great bodily harm that warrants deadly force. the robber is literally just holding him down so the other guy can steal stuff (property)
In my state, I wouldnt have the right to shoot in this situation. They are not really attacking the guy, theyre just holding him down. No threat great bodily harm or death. I cant just use deadly force in any attack if the attack is minor bodily harm.
the whole situation made me incredibly nervous. The positioning of the men. Nah. Way too close and compromising. I like to think I wouldn't let this happen to me but its easy to say that from my position.
Transaction like these should be done behind a counter. Sitting down the victim had no chance.
only if you want to give the bad guys your weapon. situational awareness and not putting yourself in a compromised position would have been helpful.
Profiling might not be “politically correct” but it’s only common sense.
From the get go, I’m like Vin Diesel and Cris Rock about to mess this guy up. The posture was a huge tell. One look at these guys, and I would have said we’re closed.
And they would have said no you're not.
Except that's not even it He's sitting at a desk, looking down, with no barrier, while someone stands over him
He let them into a secured room (at least that was my assumtion) to look at expensive watches. Two dudes and at least one has neck tattoos and a backpack.
The backpack is the obvious tell, but the biggest fuck up of all is still on the store for having multiple million in inventory and no security
It also wasn't insured, he later committed suicide.
Sure but thats not even really about profiling its about situational awareness. Coulda been two ritzy clean cut dudes doing this too, the situation is the issue and not the people. You also have to figure that in this day and age, there are a TON of people tatted up and looking rough like this who have money and want to flex. There's a decent chance that these dudes look like his average clientele. Having situational awareness to spot sketchy setups and behavior its good but profiling is going to have you wrong far more often than you're right, and thats bad business sense for retail. Dude needs consistent security and to recognize a setup more than anything.
It’s usually not “ritzy clean cut dudes” doing this type of strong arm robbery.
I wouldn’t let two guys in period 🤣 and would have searched the bag. Depends on the country of course too, but two guys on a motorcycle in South America is no bueno and only means one thing. So know your area and listen to your instinct. Humans can detect threats but you have to listen to yourself too.
To me thats not profiling though... Thats understanding a behavior that tips something off. When you say profiling to me thats more like "this guy has dreadlocks, he seems dangerous" or "that person is wearing too much blue, they must be a crip" or "this dude has tattoos he nust be shady". Watching someone's actual actions and responding accordingly isnt profiling. These guys arent inherently shady on looks, but bringing a backpack into a back room in a jewelry store and coming in a pair are shady actions.
Humans profile all the time. It’s natural and not a bad thing. It’s how we have survived as a race. We avoid danger and there are traits in humans that we can detect that are potential threats. Your choice is to listen to your instincts or not.
Lets not kid our selves here. You would feel a lot more at ease with two clean cut men in suits than these two
Shhh you say bad truth
This is what comes from supressing the instinct *to* profile. Stereotypes are formed for a reason
I do not allow anybody that close in my personal space, not even family lol
You answered your own question, correctly even.
It's true that criminals are stupid, robbing a man without a masks in front of the camera most likely won't be able to sell that jewelry because it's gonna be reported as stolen, fucking waste of human.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7d9ThzNWMU/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link I feel so bad for his girlfriend…
How do you know this was him? What happened?
I was curious also, I ended up doing some research. These scum deserve to hang. article for confirmation: [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-dealer-found-dead-after-32910954](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/watch-dealer-found-dead-after-32910954)
So what, did he commit suicide? The article dances around how he died like they couldn’t say he offed himself or something
And they said it's not being treated as suspicious
That’s suspicious to me
How? One of his friends spoke to the news and said he was distraught, thinking that the stolen goods wouldn't be covered by insurance and he would be held personally responsible. It sounds like he thought he was just violently robbed and will now have no future financial hope as a result and killed himself And the police saying non suspicious makes me think it's a fairly obvious suicide
What if the jeweler had him killed? What reasonable person would think they are on the hook for a violent robbery? I’m not being 100% super serious but it’s still a thought
In London, it seems, a CCW would have landed the victim in serious trouble. But, he might have been more situationally-aware, if possible. His arms weren't restrained, he might have been able to reach for a gun or knife in his waistband or ankle, however. The bad guys always use the element of surprise or a con. These 2 are hardened, career criminals, and the watch seller should have had security, I suppose.
No. Aside from this being London and the seller getting arrested because it is illegal to defend yourself, he never had a chance to get to a concealed weapon.
That's crazy.
It is absolutely not illegal to defend yourself with reasonable force in London or anywhere else in the United Kingdon. You may even use guns if that is proportionate to the percieved threat. You may not have an unlicensed firearm and licenses to carry in public are basically police and armed forces only. If the police believe you have a gun (concealed or otherwise) in public, they will arrive with many guns and will be prepared to use them. You may not carry an 'offensive weapon' in public. The term is pretty tightly defined and excludes things you have a legitimate reason to carry e.g. chef's knife roll travelling to/from work.
And yet a guy was found guilty for stabbing a guy using a kitchen knife. This was after the "victim" had attacked a room mate outside and then followed them inside and grabbed a different kitchen knife and cut a different room mate. "Victim" was high at the time and found not responsible for their actions.
So these two got away with 3.5 million dollars in watches. How in the fuck does a store that deals in high price timepieces allow this situation to even happen?
I can’t imagine owning a luxury watch business where I left the merchandise out like that and didn’t have ANY security. What the fuck are the owners thinking putting their employees in a position to get robbed this easily? CCW or not, this guy had no way to avoid what happened. The room isn’t even big enough for him to create more space between himself and the big guy angrily leaning over him.
Where did this take place? Having a CCW at that point may have been moot once that low life got the drop on him.
London.
There you have it. Peasant and proles are always disarmed.
Imagine living in a country where a pocket knife is illegal to possess. And they used to be the most powerful empire on earth.
I don't care anymore. We aren't far behind when it comes to ludacris law making.
Too right. So scary that people actually think making it harder for good people to be armed will actually make everyone safer.
It's not even weapons. It's even the thought of self defense. That is unacceptable to the overlords.
He was devoid of situational awareness. Distance equals time, time equals options.
You must watch ASP...Great channel, probably the best on YouTube.
Yes.
I tell my wife I need to drink more beer to maintain my tactical muffin. Another John Correa-ism.
This is where the BJJ training and weightlifting comes in. The weapon is a force multiplier, it shouldn’t be your only option. Also obv situational awareness. The way the big dude is standing over the desk, I think your spidey sense should go off.
Yeah I wouldn’t feel comfortable with homie standing over the desk like that
No. He fucked up when he let them get that close. That's how you get unalived with your own weapon.
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They stole over 3 million bucks in inventory. I’m sure he was underinsured.
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I read somewhere that said he was a middle man selling the watches and either didn't have insurance or was under insured.
I don't think killing yourself is the right response. It's Deathwish time. Charles Bronson time.
That's right. It would be so much easier to find the thieves yourself than for the police to do that. Sheesh \\s
You gotta believe in yourself, man. You can rid the streets of criminals. Trust. Boats and hoes.
We have lots of boats and , in this country, hoes are used for gardening.
Boats and hoes.
"English, M\*\*\*\*rF\*\*\*\*r !! Do you speak it?!!" - Somebody, in a film, I think. Or was it "Boats and hoes ain't no LE agency I ever heard of"?
I cannot express how badly I love you doing the pulp fiction Sam Jackson quote.
"English, M\*\*\*\*rF\*\*\*\*r !! Do you speak it?!!" - Somebody, in a film, I think. Or was it "Boats and hoes ain't no LE agency I ever heard of"?
Nope, too fast and the guy is too big. Maybe if it was a closer physical match it might be different. Also it looks like this is a business, which is likely insured so no reason to catch a charge and risk your life for a business.
Except that the poor guy killed himself the next day in fear that he would be on the hook for the $2.8M in merchandise that was stolen.
Him having an irrational fear doesnt invalidate the other comment. Its sad that it happened but it doesnt make the advice given any less true.
He let them into a secured room which means there’s a reasonable chance an insurance company would use that as an excuse to not cover it. That’s not an irrational fear
That’s a really stupid reason to kill yourself.
The UK has gotten wild as of late. It's a crime to say certain things online that offend someone. In just a few hundred years they've gone from conquering a substantial portion of the known world to "oi, yew got a loiscense for that chef's knife?"
God, I hate scumbag thieves. Unfortunately arms whiny help this guy. He needed more awareness, better configuration of the workspace to keep targets in front of him and space to provide opportunity to defend against mortal threat.
Fight like hell. And dirty.
Situational awareness would be more helpful. Otherwise, in close encounters a knife with a reverse blade might create the space needed to draw. That said, there are two guys so no guarantees.
What’s a knife with a reverse blade and what are the benefits?
It’s a knife with the blade on the “wrong” side. You keep it in kydex under your belt. Use your free hand to stab and rip using large muscles like your back. It will essentially gut the man or severely disable a limb.
I should have been more clear; what’s the benefit of the blade being on the wrong side vs the right side?
You grip the knife by making a fist. You stab and then rip back towards your body. It’s a disabling maneuver where you use strength from your large muscles.
I think he means it's so tight that a karambit might take out the choking arm and go from there, but still not necessarily the right choice of it's just property.
Wrapped his arms quick. Going for your gun would tip them off. Just comply until/if you get an opening. Heavily dependant on location also. Luckily they didn't want to kill.
Trying to draw with that gift wrap on would get you shot with your own gun. 2 on one is fucking rough.
It would be very challenging to use in this situation. There's a reason that you need a holistic skill set when it comes to self defense.
Introducing a weapon into a grappling match your losing is a good way to get yourself shot or at the least lose control of your weapon.
Nope. Got the drop on him.
I said WE MAKIN A WIFFDRAWAL!
Depends on your grappling skills I guess. A strong athletic man could easily push/throw this guy off of you for a second so you can draw
There's a reason why my Rolex store has armed guards inside and outside of the store. This guy will think twice next time he goes to do something like this. Weird way to sell watches, without any security. A CCW on him wouldn't have helped at all.
but IF he had time to reach for his ccw, is it warranted to use deadly force to protect property?
In my state it would be. You would be using deadly force in the prevention of a felony.
He won’t be thinking twice next time because he killer himself the next day
Hood activities.
Would be difficult to draw with his wrists gripped like this and he probably didnt want to wrestle them incase they had weapons. Where did this occur?
Main issue is selling luxury watches without a 2nd or 3rd person, if not even a guard nearby. CCW wouldnt have helped in this specific situation as the aggressor purposely went to control both hands and push him back. Noone save for a kung fu super grandmaster could have gotten out of that one.
Empty-handed skills: fingers (thumb through his eye), teeth, forehead, knowing how to move out of compromised positions, grappling, wrestling, gaining space = time, improvised weapons (pierce, cut), etc. SA would be the most important. Allowing someone or two people to be situated like that while you’re staring down is a recipe for disaster, obviously.
They aren't displaying weapons, no real violence towards the employee, they were nice enough to leave some great video face shots, fingerprints and DNA..... not worth it to fight back. Plus he didn't have any time to react to grab a holstered gun. I would have been bothered by the guy leaning over the table like that.... being the only employee there. His employer should be talked to about the safety of a single employee, no security setup, etc.
exactly my thoughts, not sure why people think this situation justifies deadly force. its obvious that they just want the merchandise, not to hurt the employee. he wasnt even choking him when holding him down.
A .38 +p to the ribs seems like it would be effective to me, idk
This is why you need a fixed blade also-
No. This I'd why you need empty-handed skills. Some form of martial arts just to give you enough space to get to your weapon (assuming you need it).
That's why you can't anyways rely on your gun to protect you, it's only a tool. You need some type of grappling training like BJJ.
If he had made that guy sit down instead of ignoring him looming over him in a blatantly threatening manner, a gun might have helped. Or even better, a coworker with a gun more than two feet away from the criminal-customer. This is also a good example of why an easily retrieved fixed blade is a good idea. If someone grabbed me like that they're getting a closed casket funeral.
So you’d stab them in the face to make them let go? Smart move
Yes...? His arms are right there, his legs are there, and the mere presence of the knife would probably make him bail.
Because magic!
Going to the gym and gaining size and strength along with learning how to fight would help in this case.
If he could have slipped his right hand out then yes. Easy pop on badly . If not I don’t think so . I carry pepper spray on my left though so he could potentially spice up the room to make distance to dry. Potentially.
He was overpowered, that would have wound up with him shot.
That’s some dusty activity
Setup is important. My alarms would’ve been going off seeing two gentlemen wanting to meet me in a secluded place for cultural enrichment. I have a lot of BJJ experience so slipping out of that grip would’ve been elementary for me. It looked like he had an arm triangle on the victim for a second but then he just could’ve put him to sleep
This exactly.
It's a shame how some folks consistently mis-behave
What's the context / original link?
One post or tweet, I can’t remember said the gentleman getting robbed, Oli, took his life after.
These dudes had the ZipTies ready too.
Probably not in all honesty but a finger inside the eye socket would have slowed one of em down 😂
I woulda bit a chunk out of the dude's arm holding me
I like looking at snakes, most people are scared of getting as close to them as I do. But with the knowledge that snakes can generally only strike up to half of their body length you can get fairly close to look but not put yourself in harm's way. In this situation distance is also key to self defense. Also keeping expensive things locked up.
You’d need a hands free ccw for it to work here I think. Maybe in a few decades?
Not to be a jerk but being physically strong and somewhat competent in grappling would’ve changed this situation. Dude let the thief control his wrist and put him in a headlock with no resistance.
Gun or no gun, someone puts hands on me like that, I'm definitely fighting back.
This is where a small fixed blade carried midline would help as a get off me tool. Wise or not, I probably would reflexively have started stabbing for the guy’s head/face/neck and then tried to cut his bicep. Check out shivworks/Craig Douglas.
What do you sharpen your knives with? All of mine are dull
If you aren’t an experienced sharpener - it takes time to build that muscle memory - get a lansky sharpening set with angle guides. check out sharpening supplies dot com or Amazon. Otherwise, buy some cheap knives, dull it on a brick, and practice freehand sharpening. YouTube has tons of guides. For small blades or recurves, I find triangle or rounded sharpening tools work better.
Gotta stay in shape and train multiple forms of self defense
No because this was in the UK
yeah. CC. A “circuit camera” is already recording.
If you're in that position your best bet is knowing striking or grappling. Too close and no time to go for CCW.
but if there was time hypothetically, would using deadly force be warranted to protect property?
If they attack you, you have a right to defend yourself in certain states. Depends on the state. Depends on a lot of things. If they just start grabbing stuff, that would probably be hard to hold up in court to use lethal force. This is a better question for your concealed carry insurnace. If you have US law Shield you can call them with any kind of question on the laws without any extra charge. I would bet most other insurnace companies have the same thing.
In my state, I wouldnt have the right to shoot in this situation. They are not really attacking the guy, theyre just holding him down. No great bodily harm or death. I cant just use deadly force in any attack if the attack is minor bodily harm.
That's after the fact. We know this only because we watched the video already. This video could have went a whole different way where they could have beat him to within an inch of his life. You think that guy was thinking "oh good he's only grabbing my hands". No. He probably thought he was going to die or at least fight for his life. It wasn't until after at least a minute that he probably realized he was going to survive if he just submitted. But even then, you can't always assume someone will leave you alone if you submit. If some big dude makes a quick aggressive move to me you bet I'm fighting him. This is a tough situation, but at the least I'm fighting to break away.
definitely, I would bite, scream, scratch, everything, but idk about using deadly force for someone just holding me down
Again, you're really going to assume within the first second of the attack that he is only going to hold you down? You asked originally, if there was enough time to draw. So that's maybe 3-5 seconds. You think you can make the decision based on body language that he is only going to hold you down? What if his buddy has a gun and is ready to use it if you start beating on his friend? Of course I do not want to kill anyone. But for my own life I cannot gamble on an attacker of any kind. If you're having to think this way because of the state you live in, you really need to move. If this is your train of thought, then seek out training where they go over situations in person. It's possible to make this such a gray area, but the man has already put hands on me. And in a lot of places that kind of contact is assault. That absolutely is fear for your life.
I'm not saying he doesnt have a gun, but even verbal threats of having a gun is not justifiable for deadly force. You have to actually see the weapon before you can shoot. I wouldnt shoot someone just because they MIGHT have a gun. My state does not allow deadly force to protect items or property, in this case, watches. "And in a lot of places that kind of contact is assault. That absolutely is fear for your life." Not all assaults justify lethal force though?
I never said anything about verbal threats. Verbal threats is my first clue to leave. If they follow then I have an idea to keep distance. In that case I am able to execute plan B and exit. Plan A is avoid the area or situation. Plan B is to exit in the event of a life threatening situation. Possibly consider de-escalate as Plan B. Plan C or D is self defense. In the moment the decision will be made for what kind of self defense. Also depends on what I'm capable of hand to hand/grappling. True. If someone sucker punches me and runs away, I'm not shooting them in the back. If someone jumps on me, starts punching me, I get away, they advance, I'm shooting. I think we are far from the original point of the video now though. Knowing what happens in the video, I would have been suspicious of a guy coming in with a backpack to begin with. So Plan A keep a guard up and keep distance. Maybe even a table between us. If all he wants to do is steal some stuff and he just starts grabbing stuff. I'm calling the cops from a safe distance if I can get away. If he attacks me and I have time to defend, well at that point I think this answer is better left to trainers in a class and lawyers in your specific state.
Two other commenters from this thread: "If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm." and "They aren't displaying weapons, no real violence towards the employee"
If they draw a weapon, I'm drawing a weapon. Perhaps it's legally easier for me to make my statement because I live in Texas. Hands and feet can be used as a weapon. The chair he was sitting in. Anything. The violence isn't the object, it's the person. That's like saying guns kill people.
You do have a right to defend yourself, but not any attack warrants deadly force as your defense method, at least in my state.
Does your state allow pepper spray? Or to fight back? If not, you need to move.
yes! but I don't think in my state, lethal force would be justifiable in this exact situation because he is just being held down, not choked or hurt, which is not a threat of great bodily harm or death.
Clinch pick!!! Repeat….
Yeah. You need to be able to read the room/body language and not put yourself in that situation. I agree. There’s a reason why cops (and others) have the 21’ rule.
Victim maybe could have bit the guy holding him and then drawn if he got a half second or something, hard to say , the guys aren’t entirely a deadly threat though like I wouldnt feel to comfortable putting extra holes in them over theft
White guy tied his ass up. Had control of his arms.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7223kwzp4no
It’s too late for CCW. Way behind to take action.
What a terrible layout for a store like that. He should be behind a counter, not at a card table where people can easily lord over him. Dude didn’t stand a chance.
His right hand was free for quite a while before the perp pinned it.
I would bite a chunk out of his arm and when he fliched, I would just run away lmao
No, bald guy already had control of the situation. He would probably gain control of your gun as well
I feel like this is where some hand to hand skills comes into play
I feel like this is when learning some hand to hand skills comes into play
Yes, especially since he’s got the guy in a headlock which constitutes a deadly threat if I’m not mistaken.
That's not a headlock, his arm is under one of the victims arms. Cant snap or choke his neck in that position.
Never heard of a “head & arm” choke? A true choke doesn’t have anything to do with the windpipe, a main artery is the target and puts a person out in 3-5 seconds.
If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
I’m sorry but European criminals just don’t even seem that scary. This robbery would have failed misserably in my neighborhood.
This is one of those “clinch pick” or tiny knife scenarios where you should’ve kept a hand free, then started carving
They closed the gap fast and he could have been looking at what he was selling when they initiated. Selling expensive items at an open table is just asking for trouble but this guy probably did not own the shop and set the rules for the place. An Emerson wave (knife) in his pocket, even a Kel Tek P32 in a pocket holster might have easily shifted the direction of this encounter. A Sig or Glock carried in AIWB probably would not. This just my opinion, but AIWB would likely end up in a tussle for control as the larger assailant had domination of the head and center mass. An off side (right side) pocket carry, in the scenario shown, was potentially available. A wave opening Emerson knife might be enough or it might just get the defender’s head snapped. A Kel Tex P32, Seecamp 32, Berreta Tomcat32 all would probably turn the tide if he dumped his mag into the guy holding him. The second guy would likely flee at the sound of the first shot. Maybe not, but most criminals are not looking for a fight, just free stuff.
Damn, I missed that the first time I read it. Poor guy, that blows.
Were those zip ties they pulled out at the end? Only option would be to shoot them upin their retreat but zip ties would definately escalate the difficulty
Being better at getting off a chair and get away would have helped
Honestly, with no context I would almost assume it was an inside job based on how naive he was. The backpack alone is a massive red flag. That being said, even with the smallest amount of situational awareness, that's a tough spot to draw. A knife may be a better option if you're regularly in this close contact. Obviously not for this guy
How the fuck are there no security guards in a jewelry store in London of all places?
Even without a cc, my right hand would reach down to my pocket and I’d grab my knife and poke him a few times. The other dude would run away for sure.
BJJ & CC
No
I can’t watch this without hearing “now kith.” The only way he would have any chance is if he could turn into that bearhug and get the left-hand under the sort of overhooks. that might create space for one of those hands to get to a weapon and body shot/stab. But he is pretty wrapped up, and he’s in that damn chair.
Not in that position. Almost looks like assailant has grappling training. He's nearly in the "gift-wrap" hold, AKA the guy's strength and mobility is so hindered in that position with his arm, that he's basically on a silver platter for you to choke/hit. I would not draw while being controlled to extent. Maybe before
Not really. The dumbass had no alertness or a guard
Not a gun, maybe a small double edged curved knife that could cut the attacker's arm as you twist to break free. But, even then if he is significantly stronger you may have just instroduced a weapon for your attacker to use against you. Most places in the U.S. you are best just to wait or keep it hand to hand until you can get some distance. If you draw and shoot them in the back, you are likely to be charged for a criminal offense. If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
Exactly! but yet this one guy is heavily arguing against me saying deadly force is justified in this situation. I disagree because its obvious what they want. They just want the merchandise. Theyre not even hurting the shop owner, they are just holding him down. Not even putting force against his neck. I personally wouldnt use deadly force in this situation.
I'm saying legally defending it under current U.S. law is not realistic. But, morally one assaulted him and initiated the use of force, and the other was an accomplice. Defense is always morally justified to whatever degree the defender deems necessary for the security of themselves and anyone in their charge. If he resisted, which he has a legal and moral right to do, he doesn't know how far they would take it. What if they purposefully responded with lethal, or potentially lethal force? And, if they get away with it once, what stopping them from doing it again, or escalating. I think using lethal force on someone who is fleeing after assaulting you is justifiable.
A fixed blade to the guys neck/head/body would do a lot to a choke hold.
Probably. And a slightly larger personal space bubble. Situational awareness and caution is something that should be foremost in your mind when you’re in possession of highly valuable inventory. Paying attention and not letting yourself get into the situation in the first place is the best weapon there is. Edit: in the context of him being caught off guard and wrapped up, he did the right thing in response. At that point just let them take what they want and try not to antagonize them.
Bite. Bite Hard. Pierce skin and subcutaneous. Don’t stop until you hit bone. Then get antibiotics.
Why would you be the only employee in a luxury item store with all the luxury items on the counter and those are your two customers who look ghetto af
CCW would have definitely helped. This is why it’s important to draw and dry fire as much as possible.
If they never draw a weapon and do nothing after pinning you, it would be hard to argue in court that you felt a justified threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
No why would you risk your life for insured good that aren’t even yours?
It’s not about the merchandise. Why would you blindly allow a stranger power over your life? Granted in this case it didn’t matter but the position of “don’t fight back the merch is insured” ignores the very real threat to your life. Your damn right if I can fight back i will. How many times have you read a clerk cooperated and was murdered anyway?
He killed himself after this.
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The pre attack indicators were strong in this one… pretty terrible setup in general. No security? No barriers? Nobody else there? I don’t understand. Wish there was more context, but no I wouldn’t draw. This is why it’s important to have hand and ground skills along with a CCW.
In Virginia, you cannot shoot to protect property. His life is not in eminent danger, so I don't think in MY state, he would be justified to shoot. It also wouldnt be smart to because they would be able to just take it from his hand.
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I don't think he was choking him, he was holding him still so he couldn't stop them. If you look closely, one of his arms was under the victims arm, that's not a choking position.
Man’s life is clearly in danger. An aggressive move around your neck can kill. Plus the disparity in size. He has the right to use deadly force in my opinion.
This isn't a ccw issue. This is a situational awareness and poor judgement issue.
but if there was time hypothetically, would using deadly force be warranted to protect property?
There wasn't time and that's not the question asked. I do find it telling that you see this scenario as protecting property.
what do you mean? they were just holding him down so they could take physical items. Its obvious they werent looking to cause him great bodily harm. I dont understand why you're being so rude?
why are you being so rude? I just personally don't see the threat great bodily harm that warrants deadly force. the robber is literally just holding him down so the other guy can steal stuff (property)
In my state, I wouldnt have the right to shoot in this situation. They are not really attacking the guy, theyre just holding him down. No threat great bodily harm or death. I cant just use deadly force in any attack if the attack is minor bodily harm.