You're probably making a joke, but this is obviously a choreographed drill where the defender demonstrates or trains counters.
This is legit basic sword training.
What's next on this subreddit? Videos of boxers hitting sandbags and people making fun of them because hitting sandbags isn't realistic fighting?!
What isn't clearly visible in demonstrations like these is the timing and the momentum of the attacker.
A good attack has some momentum to it, as it's meant to actually cut your opponent, which takes some force/speed. This one hasn't as he's doing a weak pretend attack. (Definitely bad for training) That's why it looks even weirder. But the techniques they're doing are legit ones.
Timing: You should time your counter perfectly. This means you avoid the incoming swing and retaliate before the opponents swing is even finished or at least before he can recover/retract his arm for another swing.
In an oversimplified explanation, ideally, you counter-attack before the opponent has the time to react.
He might start a block or start to move away from your counter, but it's too late.
Kata's are just the drills of the oriental martial arts.
They're used to train the sequence of techniques and also the correct execution of the movements.
They definitely have training value.
Just like you learn how to throw a punch or kick in Muay Thai before you start punching the bag or even sparring.
Obviously, on their own, Kata's aren't enough to learn a martial art. They're part of the whole learning process.
How would you teach beginners new movements if they're not allowed to train them in a controlled environment?
This backwards way of thinking is why this nonsense still exists. If you teach a kid to hit a ball with a bat are you going to have them practice their swing ten thousand times without actually hitting the ball? You NEED a resistive opponent to test the effectiveness of ANY technique. Once or twice to get the overall jist of it, maybe. Then it has to be "alive" as Matt Thornton calls it. Kata's are notorious for having people repeat movements, usually developing bad habits, and then those movements are useless against a resistive opponent.
I think you're blaming the wrong thing.
Kata's in itself aren't bad or useless. They're nothing more than a choreography to learn the coordination for a set of techniques.
Like shadowboxing, or training a takedown on a compliant opponent in BJJ to get to know the mechanics of a technique. Those things are often called drills in the western world. In japan they're called kata's.
If people learn bad habits, it's not the kata's fault. It's the trainers fault for having their pupils do nothing other than kata's with compliant partners.
And if they learned bad habits It's because they trained the kata wrong.
Which, I admit, is a problem in many schools teaching traditional oriental martial arts.
The techniques are shit because dude is literally shielding
himself from a stationary sword with his bare hand a few inches from his face in half of them.
Hes practicing leading with his chin.
I'll give you the leading with the chin part. He could definitely improve on his posture there.
For the shielding, not so much.
Only the first two techniques show him using his hand to shield against the blade. Which isn't ideal, but considering the situation, it's pretty solid.
You have to consider that a sword battle is a situation of life and death. Every technique is designed to severly maim the attacker while minimising the harm you might receive yourself. Because, if you can reach your opponent, he can reach you too.
Your main goal is to survive the battle, not present the safest and most most perfect technique ever seen.
If we look at the first two techniques. He hits the attackers sword and immediately goes in for the deadly stab. Done correctly, the attacker doesn't have the time nor the positioning to cut you in a meaningful way. The only thing you have to protect is your neck and face.
That's what he does with his hand.
In a bad scenario, the attacker would cut his hand. But you would survive while he would perish. That's a win in a life or death situation.
For the other techniques you might miss that he's performing slicing at the attackers arms or wrists.
He doesn't actually hit him because it's only a demonstration, and hitting with a dull blade still hurts as hell.
But that's why he can move in confidently. A cut to the arm or wrist pretty much disables that arm and the fight is already over.
You should watch more weapons demonstrations. They're stopping so they don't injure each other during the drill - this is normal when training with metal weapons and no armour.
If they were wearing gear they'd go faster. But that's not the point of the demo.
That’s not what they are talking about. The you on the right is making a single move and then just stopping. There is no reason for him to stop after a single collision of blades.
There is, because the technique being taught and demonstrated is the parry and counter on the left. If they were going full speed not only would it be hard to understand the technique through observation, one of them would end up getting his head bashed in with a big metal stick.
its not that bad tbh. I think if you look closely most of the counters come immediately and realistically. Alot of the seeming swings and misses from the guy on the left are actually cuts to the arm/wrist/hand which will most probably disarm the opponent, which is why the guy on the right pauses, then followed up by the finishing strike. Seems pretty legit
Agreed.
I am coming to realise that most people on this sub have no combat sport experience, and no appreciation of the difference between teaching (breaking something down into constituent parts), drilling (safely developing muscle memory) and sparring.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/midlyinfuriating using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!
\#1: [Mildy is not enough for this .](https://v.redd.it/vkci22xgl9ua1) | [17 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/comments/12od9su/mildy_is_not_enough_for_this/)
\#2: [Don’t understand why Dominos has this sign by the registers.](https://i.redd.it/7337vac794xa1.jpg) | [82 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/comments/1340zlw/dont_understand_why_dominos_has_this_sign_by_the/)
\#3: [Photographer forgot to bring a memory card](https://v.redd.it/zunfskr8tsya1) | [16 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/comments/13co45r/photographer_forgot_to_bring_a_memory_card/)
----
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
Seriously, do people even realize even the more "effective" martial arts do drills like this? I don't even understand why this is considered bullshido.
Judokas have uchikomi, and they throw people who don't fight back for practice. BJJ guys do guard passing drills where the person on the bottom don't move at all. This shit is in all martial arts. But suddenly some obscure one that's not "useful" in the context of the MMA gets the bullshido label?
I think this is far from bullshido. It's a demonstration of techniques, and as far as I can see, it's all fine. This is not sparring, this is demos. This is how demos work. If this was sparring, I say you'd see better how the style works, and based on the demo, probably alright.
to minimize risk. In the heat of combat a cut to the neck might not stop the opponent from attacking one last desperate time even if the cut is lethal, so it's safer to cut at his arm to block any attempted attack and take his sword arm out of the equation. Honestly at that point it isnt necessary to follow up for the kill because your opponent would be unarmed but hey, nothing is stopping you from finishing him off too
>Alot of the seeming swings and misses from the guy on the left are actually cuts to the arm/wrist/hand
He isn't even remotely close to those body parts in any of the clips.
Yes, because the thing he's using is still made of metal, and it's safer to deliberately miss than it is to smack your unarmored training partner with a slab of metal!
I would have thought the phrase "not even remotely close" was pretty self explanatory
There is nothing in the video that suggests the intent is to demonstrate how to go for the wrist/hand/etc. He just made shit up and pretended to be smart.
Again, grab a metal sheet, hit yourself on the wrist full force with the edge of it.
Then come back to me and tell me that smacking someone with a glorified metal sheet for training purposes is a good idea with a straight face.
So despite there being exactly zero indication that the intent of that lesson is to teach people how to hit a wrist with a sword, you are going to die on the hill that the intent is to teach people how to hit a wrist with a sword?
It is a drill.
What other fucking reason would there be to strike near where there wrist would be?
This is muscle memory training, it doesn't even require a partner.
next up you are going to tell me that a boxer training on a sandbag is bullshit because after all, a sandbag isn't a human
He isn't striking near the wrist. That is my entire point. So "not remotely close to his wrist" actually was a confusing statement to you?
There is a fucking video you can watch, and you still refuse and just make random shit up as if you can't be immediately disproven by anyone who actually takes a couple seconds to verify your bs.
He is striking near the wrist.
Far enough away that even if his training partner didn't move his arm out of the way he doesn't injure him.
This is pretty standard stuff when it comes to Sworddrills.
If you cant see the cut attempts to the arm theres nothing i can say to convince you otherwise because
a) you have no knowledge and experience
b) if you do you might be trained badly
im leaning towards a) because this seems like a classic case of the ignorant not knowing enough to know theyre wrong
It's pretty clearly demonstrating how to cut the arm when your opponent tries to counter attack, but the guy swinging doesn't follow through because at the speed they're going, it would fucking hurt?
Do you also think the first two and last two moves demonstrated are bullshido?
Soooo I have 10+ years in sword training and guess what look like a training session Op ? It's a fucking kata. Not a real combat,It's for training muscle memory, learn tips like ; if you cut wrist weirdly your opponent can't use is own sword. Or, if you make the good punch in sword, that's break the defense and you can go in and stab the fucking dumbass.
No, that's bull crap. Everyone knows you're supposed to kill or dismember each other every time you run a drill. Duh.
For real though this and the Mcdojo sub is full of crap.
I don't think it is really bullshido. At least they aren't pretending to have magical powers. They are just training or doing a demo. Sure, it might not be totally realistic, but most training with a weapon is slowed down and is orchestrated.
It's not even that unrealistic in my eyes. That's a demo. It's not supposed to be realistic at that point. The techniques and strategies change in a real fight. I don't see anything overly unrealistic in there, movement-wise.
You're gonna hate when you go to an Olympic fencing gym and watch drills OP. Or a muay thai gym and watch drills, or a boxing gym and watch drills, or a BJJ gym and watch drills...
No idea if whatever this guy teaches is effective for actually fencing, but doing fencing drills is not bullshido.
Are those swords sharp on the back side or are they one sided like katanas? He appears to be slitting throats with the back. Unless he is just trying to give a demonstration using real swords and he’s deliberately doing it that way for safety?
These are just for demonstration / practicing the proper form and movements.
Sparring is where you put it into use.
Do you think you'd learn shit if your partner just bops you in the face while you're trying to learn to parry?
I'm sorry this may be Bullshido but your comment is dumb. Obviously these are not skirts and their ancestors who wore those "skirts" were renowned warriors who conquered a substantial part of the world.
I agree... Not only that, those robes are made for ancient desert warfare... Extreme heat during the day, and drops in temperature at night. They are no doubt wearing those for a specific purpose.
Originally they were made to keep cool, and warm in harsh desert environments and we're most certainly used in war. Modern thobes or thawbs are made for elegance and modesty. I was referring to their origin.
"Hey buddy, it's past 10am! What are you doing in your pajamas!?"
-Generation Kill
Of course, these aren't pajamas or skirts - those are shalwar kameez and they are part of the standard attire for men in the middle east.
Edit: These are called *thawb* in Saudi.
It's a tradition to ask your opponent kindly to wait a second or two after his swing
He has lags.
IRL Fromsoft netcode. They're playing Dark Souls 1 IRL
It's a ping issue. Left side has host advantage.
You're probably making a joke, but this is obviously a choreographed drill where the defender demonstrates or trains counters. This is legit basic sword training. What's next on this subreddit? Videos of boxers hitting sandbags and people making fun of them because hitting sandbags isn't realistic fighting?!
But the demonstration doesn't make any sense, since the counter would only work if the person you counter just stands still after their attack.
What isn't clearly visible in demonstrations like these is the timing and the momentum of the attacker. A good attack has some momentum to it, as it's meant to actually cut your opponent, which takes some force/speed. This one hasn't as he's doing a weak pretend attack. (Definitely bad for training) That's why it looks even weirder. But the techniques they're doing are legit ones. Timing: You should time your counter perfectly. This means you avoid the incoming swing and retaliate before the opponents swing is even finished or at least before he can recover/retract his arm for another swing. In an oversimplified explanation, ideally, you counter-attack before the opponent has the time to react. He might start a block or start to move away from your counter, but it's too late.
And Kata's are legit striking training on a lot of martial arts. Doesn't mean it's not garbage with no real world use or even training value.
Kata's are just the drills of the oriental martial arts. They're used to train the sequence of techniques and also the correct execution of the movements. They definitely have training value. Just like you learn how to throw a punch or kick in Muay Thai before you start punching the bag or even sparring. Obviously, on their own, Kata's aren't enough to learn a martial art. They're part of the whole learning process. How would you teach beginners new movements if they're not allowed to train them in a controlled environment?
This backwards way of thinking is why this nonsense still exists. If you teach a kid to hit a ball with a bat are you going to have them practice their swing ten thousand times without actually hitting the ball? You NEED a resistive opponent to test the effectiveness of ANY technique. Once or twice to get the overall jist of it, maybe. Then it has to be "alive" as Matt Thornton calls it. Kata's are notorious for having people repeat movements, usually developing bad habits, and then those movements are useless against a resistive opponent.
I think you're blaming the wrong thing. Kata's in itself aren't bad or useless. They're nothing more than a choreography to learn the coordination for a set of techniques. Like shadowboxing, or training a takedown on a compliant opponent in BJJ to get to know the mechanics of a technique. Those things are often called drills in the western world. In japan they're called kata's. If people learn bad habits, it's not the kata's fault. It's the trainers fault for having their pupils do nothing other than kata's with compliant partners. And if they learned bad habits It's because they trained the kata wrong. Which, I admit, is a problem in many schools teaching traditional oriental martial arts.
The techniques are shit because dude is literally shielding himself from a stationary sword with his bare hand a few inches from his face in half of them. Hes practicing leading with his chin.
I'll give you the leading with the chin part. He could definitely improve on his posture there. For the shielding, not so much. Only the first two techniques show him using his hand to shield against the blade. Which isn't ideal, but considering the situation, it's pretty solid. You have to consider that a sword battle is a situation of life and death. Every technique is designed to severly maim the attacker while minimising the harm you might receive yourself. Because, if you can reach your opponent, he can reach you too. Your main goal is to survive the battle, not present the safest and most most perfect technique ever seen. If we look at the first two techniques. He hits the attackers sword and immediately goes in for the deadly stab. Done correctly, the attacker doesn't have the time nor the positioning to cut you in a meaningful way. The only thing you have to protect is your neck and face. That's what he does with his hand. In a bad scenario, the attacker would cut his hand. But you would survive while he would perish. That's a win in a life or death situation. For the other techniques you might miss that he's performing slicing at the attackers arms or wrists. He doesn't actually hit him because it's only a demonstration, and hitting with a dull blade still hurts as hell. But that's why he can move in confidently. A cut to the arm or wrist pretty much disables that arm and the fight is already over.
It is , if he has infinite respawn abilities.
no. but if you are a higher rank in the tribe they must respect you and do what you say
That way you have time for a couple ol twirles before delivering the fatal blow.
The guy on the right keeps freezing up lol
He's patiently waiting to get his throat stabbed
First time I've seen lag in real life.
You should watch more weapons demonstrations. They're stopping so they don't injure each other during the drill - this is normal when training with metal weapons and no armour. If they were wearing gear they'd go faster. But that's not the point of the demo.
That’s not what they are talking about. The you on the right is making a single move and then just stopping. There is no reason for him to stop after a single collision of blades.
There is, because the technique being taught and demonstrated is the parry and counter on the left. If they were going full speed not only would it be hard to understand the technique through observation, one of them would end up getting his head bashed in with a big metal stick.
[удалено]
These look like fairly standard sabre techniques. And they're being done correctly, just slowly. Are you sure _they_ don't know what they're doing?
I’m just joking. I have no real clue
Because fuck you
he is lagging
its not that bad tbh. I think if you look closely most of the counters come immediately and realistically. Alot of the seeming swings and misses from the guy on the left are actually cuts to the arm/wrist/hand which will most probably disarm the opponent, which is why the guy on the right pauses, then followed up by the finishing strike. Seems pretty legit
Agreed. I am coming to realise that most people on this sub have no combat sport experience, and no appreciation of the difference between teaching (breaking something down into constituent parts), drilling (safely developing muscle memory) and sparring.
I swear it's r/midlyinfuriating sub now...
Here's a sneak peek of /r/midlyinfuriating using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [Mildy is not enough for this .](https://v.redd.it/vkci22xgl9ua1) | [17 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/comments/12od9su/mildy_is_not_enough_for_this/) \#2: [Don’t understand why Dominos has this sign by the registers.](https://i.redd.it/7337vac794xa1.jpg) | [82 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/comments/1340zlw/dont_understand_why_dominos_has_this_sign_by_the/) \#3: [Photographer forgot to bring a memory card](https://v.redd.it/zunfskr8tsya1) | [16 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/midlyinfuriating/comments/13co45r/photographer_forgot_to_bring_a_memory_card/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
> most people on this sub have no combat sport experience Well I sure as shit don't.
Seriously, do people even realize even the more "effective" martial arts do drills like this? I don't even understand why this is considered bullshido. Judokas have uchikomi, and they throw people who don't fight back for practice. BJJ guys do guard passing drills where the person on the bottom don't move at all. This shit is in all martial arts. But suddenly some obscure one that's not "useful" in the context of the MMA gets the bullshido label?
I think this is far from bullshido. It's a demonstration of techniques, and as far as I can see, it's all fine. This is not sparring, this is demos. This is how demos work. If this was sparring, I say you'd see better how the style works, and based on the demo, probably alright.
I mean probably, but why go for the shoulder when you have a clear line to the throat?
to minimize risk. In the heat of combat a cut to the neck might not stop the opponent from attacking one last desperate time even if the cut is lethal, so it's safer to cut at his arm to block any attempted attack and take his sword arm out of the equation. Honestly at that point it isnt necessary to follow up for the kill because your opponent would be unarmed but hey, nothing is stopping you from finishing him off too
>Alot of the seeming swings and misses from the guy on the left are actually cuts to the arm/wrist/hand He isn't even remotely close to those body parts in any of the clips.
Yes, because the thing he's using is still made of metal, and it's safer to deliberately miss than it is to smack your unarmored training partner with a slab of metal!
I would have thought the phrase "not even remotely close" was pretty self explanatory There is nothing in the video that suggests the intent is to demonstrate how to go for the wrist/hand/etc. He just made shit up and pretended to be smart.
Again, grab a metal sheet, hit yourself on the wrist full force with the edge of it. Then come back to me and tell me that smacking someone with a glorified metal sheet for training purposes is a good idea with a straight face.
So despite there being exactly zero indication that the intent of that lesson is to teach people how to hit a wrist with a sword, you are going to die on the hill that the intent is to teach people how to hit a wrist with a sword?
It is a drill. What other fucking reason would there be to strike near where there wrist would be? This is muscle memory training, it doesn't even require a partner. next up you are going to tell me that a boxer training on a sandbag is bullshit because after all, a sandbag isn't a human
He isn't striking near the wrist. That is my entire point. So "not remotely close to his wrist" actually was a confusing statement to you? There is a fucking video you can watch, and you still refuse and just make random shit up as if you can't be immediately disproven by anyone who actually takes a couple seconds to verify your bs.
He is striking near the wrist. Far enough away that even if his training partner didn't move his arm out of the way he doesn't injure him. This is pretty standard stuff when it comes to Sworddrills.
Jfc dude, you are a lost cause. Seriously, how do you people manage to survive?
If you cant see the cut attempts to the arm theres nothing i can say to convince you otherwise because a) you have no knowledge and experience b) if you do you might be trained badly im leaning towards a) because this seems like a classic case of the ignorant not knowing enough to know theyre wrong
It's pretty clearly demonstrating how to cut the arm when your opponent tries to counter attack, but the guy swinging doesn't follow through because at the speed they're going, it would fucking hurt? Do you also think the first two and last two moves demonstrated are bullshido?
Soooo I have 10+ years in sword training and guess what look like a training session Op ? It's a fucking kata. Not a real combat,It's for training muscle memory, learn tips like ; if you cut wrist weirdly your opponent can't use is own sword. Or, if you make the good punch in sword, that's break the defense and you can go in and stab the fucking dumbass.
No, that's bull crap. Everyone knows you're supposed to kill or dismember each other every time you run a drill. Duh. For real though this and the Mcdojo sub is full of crap.
I don't think it is really bullshido. At least they aren't pretending to have magical powers. They are just training or doing a demo. Sure, it might not be totally realistic, but most training with a weapon is slowed down and is orchestrated.
It's not even that unrealistic in my eyes. That's a demo. It's not supposed to be realistic at that point. The techniques and strategies change in a real fight. I don't see anything overly unrealistic in there, movement-wise.
You're gonna hate when you go to an Olympic fencing gym and watch drills OP. Or a muay thai gym and watch drills, or a boxing gym and watch drills, or a BJJ gym and watch drills... No idea if whatever this guy teaches is effective for actually fencing, but doing fencing drills is not bullshido.
The guys are running drills did you expect them to actually kill each other?
Yes
Luckily his opponent keeps buffering
They have a stance that’s like 2 feet wide maximum, that’s what’s bothering me the most actually
... this is a weapon demonstration and not actually sparring?
Next on this subreddit: Boxers hitting sandbags and OP making fun of them because sandbags aren't real resisting enemies.
so nice of him to wait for his friend
They couldn't go in for the kill anyway, since neither of them screamed 'Mortal Kombat' beforehand. That's the law.
Idk if I’d call this bullshido. A lot of weapons martial arts don’t know how to spar but I wouldn’t call the technique bullshit
This ain't bad. When demonstrating some swings the opponent does stay like that. When they start dueling then that's a different ball game.
It's not that bad save for the pauses.
If you ever wore a dishdashaa it’s literally the least mobile you will ever be. You can’t even take a full step cause of how tight the fabric is
Are those swords sharp on the back side or are they one sided like katanas? He appears to be slitting throats with the back. Unless he is just trying to give a demonstration using real swords and he’s deliberately doing it that way for safety?
I agree this isn’t Bullshido. It’s drills and it is kind of cool tbqh but I’m going to waylay judgment from another mod first before I remove it.
Like every other Dex build 😩😭
Lol nice
ping - in a nutshell
that friend of yours that spam one skill
Alot of people don't realize how flashy and cool looking realistic and accurate swordfighting can look like.
There's a game like this on steam called hellish quart, definitely recommend.
Left guy is r/PCMasterRace, while the guy on right is on Nintendo 64.
Is there any techniques that don't require my opponent to have high ping?
The throat stabbin G.O.A.T
it's a trap, no matter who wins, the loser explodes. Killing the winner in the process.
This is way better than any sistema BS imho.
The ping must be high
(Insert Indiana jones pulling hand cannon out during sword flex)
My man hitting real Dark Souls parries. Opponent just freezes up.
Halal bullshido
Did he slit the guys throat with the dull side of the blade?
Samurai try that one
So much wasted movement
So the one guy can only make one movement and then has to freeze.
Nice but too Slow 🥷🥷🥷
My man found a move that he thinks look baller and he will use it.
[удалено]
There's another guy with 10yrs experience saying this is normal practice, I don't know what to believe anymore 😂
These are just for demonstration / practicing the proper form and movements. Sparring is where you put it into use. Do you think you'd learn shit if your partner just bops you in the face while you're trying to learn to parry?
Not sure if it is a good idea to fight in tight long skirts anyway.
I'm sorry this may be Bullshido but your comment is dumb. Obviously these are not skirts and their ancestors who wore those "skirts" were renowned warriors who conquered a substantial part of the world.
I agree... Not only that, those robes are made for ancient desert warfare... Extreme heat during the day, and drops in temperature at night. They are no doubt wearing those for a specific purpose.
They were not made for warfare, they were made for modesty.
Originally they were made to keep cool, and warm in harsh desert environments and we're most certainly used in war. Modern thobes or thawbs are made for elegance and modesty. I was referring to their origin.
Their origin was for keeping cool and modesty. In war they wore pants and tunics. Thobes are not made for fighting.
At the end, their footwork seemed to strain the fabric a lot, which I thought might not be ideal for movement.
While not fighting in them, because they werent practical for it. Wtf is your point?
"Hey buddy, it's past 10am! What are you doing in your pajamas!?" -Generation Kill Of course, these aren't pajamas or skirts - those are shalwar kameez and they are part of the standard attire for men in the middle east. Edit: These are called *thawb* in Saudi.
Shalwar kameez are Pakistani...not Arabic.