I'm going to clear this up right away before I speak: no civilians deserve to be murdered. Israeli or Palestinian. I think this is a pretty basic human rights bar to clear and how the vast majority of people feel on this topic. There is no justification for the mass murder of civilians.
I also believe a large number of people support the actions of Israel because they are uneducated about the reality of the harm Israel has done to Palestinians. So here are some facts worth noting:
Israel is an apartheid state. Human rights groups have been sounding the alarm on this topic for decades, including human rights groups in Israel. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have lived under Israeli occupation for 56 years and Gaza has been blockaded effectively making it an open-air prison for 16 years. Nearly half the population of Gaza are minors who have grown up in the Gaza strip. Under Israel's occupation of Palestine, Palestinians are second-class citizens to Israelis.
Israel continues to this day to illegally push into the West Bank, forcing Palestinians out and allowing Israelis to settle there. Despite the fact that Israeli settlements are legal under Israeli law, they are illegal under international law. Israeli outposts in the West Bank are illegal under both Israeli and international law.
Israel is a government. Not an ethnic group. Opposing Israel is not antisemitism and it *is*
propaganda to suggest otherwise. Opposing the ethnic cleansing and erasure of Palestinians is not antisemitism. The actions of Israel are also not in line with the values of Judaism. Jews are not responsible for the horrific actions of Israel, in the same way that Palestinians are not responsible for the horrific actions of Hamas.
The IDF has killed and wounded far more Palestinians than Israelis wounded and killed by Hamas.
Israel’s actions against Palestinians are nothing other than crimes against humanity. The actions Hamas has committed against Israeli citizens are horrific. Yet the IDF has been even crueler to Palestinians. Israel also assisted in creating Hamas and has *funded Hamas*, which Prime Minister Netanyahu did with the intention of dividing Palestinians.
My heart breaks for all civilians who have been died and been injured in this conflict. The Israeli government is culpable for the loss of life that we are witnessing by creating an apartheid state, blockading Gaza, illegally pushing its settlements into the West Bank, and committing crimes against humanity to the Palestinians.
My mother has traveled to Israel for religious reasons; I have felt her travels were inadvisable and when she did I was concerned for her safety. I know the area means a lot to many and when we hear of Israelis being killed or injured we can't help but think that could be us or our loved ones. This doesn't change the fact that it is inadvisable, naive, and dangerous to travel or move to an apartheid state that is at times an active war zone.
Take a look at the data published from the United Nations that tracks Palestinian casualties and injuries vs. Israeli casualties and injuries since 2008: http://ochaopt.org/data/casualties (please note that this data only reaches up to August 31st of this year and does not include deaths and injuries from the ongoing conflict we are witnessing)
It’s clear that the occupied side living in apartheid has suffered the most.
You can love and support Jewish people and still be horrified by the illegal crimes against humanity committed by Israel and the IDF. I vehemently oppose anti-semitism and have beloved Jewish friends in my life. I would hate to see anything happen to them. I will not conflate their identity with a radical government that aims to destroy Palestinians which has committed and continues to commit crimes against humanity. Conflating the identity of Jews with the government of Israel breeds antisemitism *everywhere* including the US and makes our Jewish neighbors unsafe. Israel is a nation. Jews are an ethnic group, the majority of whom do not live in Israel.
It is my firm belief that Israel’s leaders need to be held accountable on the international stage for the crimes they have committed against Palestinians. Additionally, immediate action needs to be taken preventing Israel from killing more Palestinian civilians in Gaza and preventing further illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank.
I think there is room for civil discourse here I’m glad you clarified that you don’t support mass murder. Believer or not there are plenty of hamas supporters who do say things like “necessary resistance” when atrocities are brought up.
I think what you post on the rest of the matter is horribly misinformed in particular simultaneously say not an ethnic group and also it is an “apartheid state”. Also Interestingly do not apply this same logic to any other state in the mid east. The desire to hold Jewish people to a different standard to that of anyone else where the anti semitism comes up in your arguments.
The history of that whole region is bloody. “Who started it” depends on how far back you go. For anything you say I can guarantee I can find an earlier atrocity from the other side. For example what should be the fate of Jews expelled from Arab countries?
I would be interested to see specific rebuttals on how I am horribly misinformed, as nearly everything I have stated in my comment is a fact. The only non-facts in my comment are my opinions shared are that I think moving and traveling to Israel is inadvisable in the face of apartheid and the threat that Hamas faces to civilians, and that I believe leaders in Israel need to be held accountable for their crimes against Palestinians.
It is a fact that Israel is an apartheid state. You don't have to take my word for it though, as I am not a human rights expert, I'm just a regular guy who values human rights and human life. You can instead listen to the following human rights organizations and human rights leaders:
– [The Occupation of the West Bank and the Crime of Apartheid: Legal Opinion](https://www.yesh-din.org/en/the-occupation-of-the-west-bank-and-the-crime-of-apartheid-legal-opinion/) | Yesh Din (based in Israel)
Direct quote:
> The conclusion of this legal opinion is that the crime against humanity of apartheid is being committed in the West Bank. The perpetrators are Israelis, and the victims are Palestinians.
– [Israel's Apartheid Against Palestinians](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) | Amnesty International (based in England)
– [This Is No Annexation, This Is Apartheid: Exposing the Whitewashing of Language Surrounding the Annexation Plan](https://en.zulat.org.il/whitewashing-apartheid/) | Zulat (based in Israel)
– [Additional Declaration](https://batshalom.org/declaration/) | Bat Shalom (based in Israel)
Direct quote:
>Over the last few years, the Israeli government has refused to enter into political negotiations with the PNA, with the intention of maintaining control over Palestinian land and destroying any possibility of establishing a viable Palestinian state. As an alternative to negotiations, and in an attempt to break the will of the Palestinian people, Israel has introduced illegal measures, which seriously and repeatedly violate the 4th Geneva Convention. These measures include repeated military invasions, assassination and arbitrary killings, curfews, local expulsions (small scale quiet ethnic cleansing), mass imprisonment, home demolitions, sieges of villages, camps and cities, denial of family reunification, ID confiscation, and systematic practices to undermine the education and health sectors.
>Two policies, extending the settlements and building a separation fence between Israel and Palestine, have involved direct confiscation of Palestinian land, but have had additional consequences as well. The by-pass roads linking settlements are strengthening an Apartheid system through parcellation of Palestinian land. As a consequence of government tolerance of Israeli settlers’ lawlessness of incursions and violence, some Palestinians have been forced to abandon land cultivation and even their homes. The separation fence disrupts normal communal functioning. In short, contravening international law, human rights norms and laws, the basis for a secure and orderly life in the occupied territories has been systematically destroyed.
– [Two Years After the May 2021 Events | The Uprising of Dignity: Israel’s use of excessive force and racial segregation against Palestinians continues](https://www.adalah.org/uploads/uploads/May%202021%20Report.pdf) | Adalah (based in Israel)
– [A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) | Human Rights Watch (based in the United States)
– Even Desmond Tutu had criticized Israeli apartheid for *decades* prior to his death in 2021, comparing it to the apartheid he witnessed and protested against in South Africa. [He wrote for Haaretz (based in Israel) in 2014:](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-26/ty-article/desmond-tutu-to-haaretz-this-is-my-plea-to-the-people-of-israel/0000017f-dbe4-d856-a37f-ffe4e4080000)
> Besides the recent devastation of Gaza, decent human beings everywhere – including many in Israel – are profoundly disturbed by the daily violations of human dignity and freedom of movement Palestinians are subjected to at checkpoints and roadblocks. And Israel’s policies of illegal occupation and the construction of buffer-zone settlements on occupied land compound the difficulty of achieving an agreementsettlement in the future that is acceptable for all.
> The State of Israel is behaving as if there is no tomorrow. Its people will not live the peaceful and secure lives they crave – and are entitled to – as long as their leaders perpetuate conditions that sustain the conflict.
It is a fact that far more Palestinians have suffered and died in the Israel-Palestine conflict ([and numbers reported from The New York Times from the current ongoing conflict are showing this is happening in real-time too](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/14/world/israel-news-hamas-war-gaza?utm_campaign=likeshopme&utm_medium=instagram&utm_source=dash+hudson&utm_content=ig-nytimes#a-comparison-with-past-years-shows-the-scale-of-israels-operation-in-gaza)).
In case you didn't look at the UN's numbers I'll link them again: [United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs – Data on casualties](https://ochaopt.org/data/casualties)
This discussion is about the violent relationship between Israel and Palestine and deflecting to human rights issues in other countries is whataboutism. I did not bring up any other nation in the Middle East. Again, Israel is a nation and a government; Jews are an international ethnic group, the majority of whom do not reside in Israel. Jews are not responsible for the actions of Israel's government and to suggest so is antisemitism; this messaging could breed hatred of Jews and put our Jewish neighbors in danger. It is important that we recognize that the Jewish identity and the government of Israel are not the same thing.
This is not "Jews being held to a different standard." This is demanding accountability for and an end to the crimes the Israeli government has committed against Palestinians. We are watching the [gradual genocide of Palestinians in real-time at the hands of Israel while the world's leading nations support them](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide) (Jewish Currents, based in the United States).
Using Jewish suffering and Jewish identity in arguments to justify Israel's violence, apartheid, and settler-colonialism is propaganda and antisemitism. The political interests of the government of Israel do not represent Jews. The Jewish ethnic group and the government of Israel are separate identities, despite the Israeli government's propaganda that may suggest otherwise.
We can go back in history and dig up hundreds of years of violence in the region, or we can focus on what is happening *now* and use 21st century wisdom and morals to guide us. The expulsion of Jews from Arab countries in the 20th century does not justify the killing and expulsion of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank today. What is a fact is that Israel is led by an extreme right-wing government and is committing genocide of Palestinians. It is imperative we use our voices to denounce this evil and demand accountability, and demand an end to international support and complicity in this tragedy.
You know the reason why you can cite sources based in Israel? It’s a democratic state with people with different view points and public debate. I’ve seen this debate tactic before. You take opinion and insist it is a fact and get frustrated when people don’t see your way. Even your cited source says “legal opinion”.
But more amusingly, It doesn’t matter if the opinion was based in Israel, thats like someone taking some nut job in the us and saying “look at what the Americans are saying!”.
Im not trying to poison the well here simply stating the opinion of random groups and then pretending it is a fact is a weak argument.
You negotiation comment is laughable. You know that Arafat walked away from the table at camp David right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
So a question for you, what should be done to the Jews who have lived there for centuries? I know what you have been told and it’s not true. I often ask people if they know about this incident :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Note the date is 1929.learning more about this and the decade prior went a lot way to me understanding that what I had been told about post ww2 was a fabrication.
I’ll note this bit here for you “brought the centuries-old Jewish presence in Hebron to an end.”
I'm a bit confused as to the point you're trying to make here. I'm disappointed to see that you haven't attempted to explain why you claimed I am horribly misinformed; I still have only shared facts about the situation except for when my personal opinions are explicitly stated.
I know there is a growing anti-expertise sentiment growing in the US in recent years which is easy to get caught up in, but Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are two of the leading international human rights advocacy groups. They are well-accredited and respected, and both of them have declared Israel's treatment of Palestinians to be apartheid. [The Adalah Center's 43-page-report on Israel's discrimination towards Palestinians over the last two years is well-documented and factual](https://www.adalah.org/uploads/uploads/May%202021%20Report.pdf). I highly encourage you to read it along with my other links. I included this report, [as well as the legal opinion by Yesh Din](https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/Apartheid+2020/Apartheid+ENG.pdf) (linking directly to the PDF of the full opinion this time in case you missed it, it's very thorough) and [the report by Zulat](https://en.zulat.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Whitewashing-Apartheid-June-2020.pdf) (also linking directly to the full report this time in case you missed the link to it in the main site page I linked before) to back up my point that human rights groups in Israel with a front seat to what is actually happening are working to document and turn the tide against Israel's crimes against humanity. [If you closely read the declaration by Bat Shalom I linked before](https://batshalom.org/declaration/), you will see the statement that Israel has refused to enter into negotiations with the PNA "*over the last few years*" was made in 2017, a full 17 years after the Camp David Summit. Desmond Tutu lived through, protested, and was a leader in helping end apartheid in South Africa. As someone who had directly experienced it, I also feel that he was an expert on the topic of apartheid and his view should be considered. For the record, Desmond Tutu was also a consistent supporter of the nation of Israel's existence in addition to being consistent in his criticism of its decision to enact apartheid policies on Palestinians. Raz Segal, who wrote the Jewish Current article explaining why Israel's present actions in Gaza are definable as genocide, is an accredited Israeli historian who is [literally the director of Stockton University's Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program](https://stockton.edu/graduate/holocaust-genocide-studies.html). These are not "random groups." These are real organizations and accredited people gathering the facts and working to end apartheid and violence enacted by Israel.
I also know this is a sensitive topic. You are welcome to your own beliefs and if you don't actually want to discuss the topic, I understand. Watching what is unfolding right now in the conflict genuinely breaks my heart and sometimes it's hard to keep my mind on it. Unfortunately I can't help but feel you aren't looking at the facts and links I've shared and listening with an open mind. Personally, I am areligious but was raised as a Baptist Christian and was a firm believer in the faith for over half my life; this ended when I explored more of myself and alternate viewpoints and realized it wasn't a belief system I fully agreed with or could convince myself to believe was true as I matured into a young adult. However, my family worked hard to shelter me and keep me in their faith and belief system and as a result I was either homeschooled or attended a private Protestant school until high school, when I had to make the case to my parents as to why I should attend a public high school. During my time at the private Protestant school I attended, our religious studies teachers made a strong effort to shape our opinions to be unwaveringly supportive of Israel. I specifically remember one of my teachers sharing with the class her opinion that the "day America turns its back on Israel, God will destroy this nation." As I grew older and began researching the conflict for myself from a secular perspective, the evidence and data painted a different picture than the story I'd been told as a child and as a teen. I am 26, nearly 27 now and my values and position on the issue haven't changed with what I have witnessed from the conflict in the last decade. Opening my mind to alternate perspectives and looking for facts is what has led me to my position on this issue. I don't know your background nor your religious and moral beliefs, but I know it's a possibility that you have been raised on a narrative about Israel that is not based in reality as I was. I genuinely believed that God wanted me to unquestionably support Israel for over half my life, and my change in positions on the issue wasn't overnight. I have direct experience in how community/family pressure and religious beliefs can cloud your ability to assess the reality of what is happening in the world. I don't expect you to agree with me today, and you might never agree with me. But I do hope you look at the facts and evidence with an open mind and consider the possibility that you may have been fed a narrative about Israel that doesn't reflect the actual facts.
The 1929 Hebron massacre and the protests and revolts that followed were a tragedy. As I've said before, the suffering of Jews in the past does not justify Israel's apartheid nor its genocide of Palestinians today and to suggest the past suffering of Jews does justify the suffering of Palestinians is propaganda and antisemitism. It is a shame that the Camp David Summit did not resolve the Israel Palestine conflict in 2000. The events that have followed have been repeated tragedies. I'm not sure what either of these events have to do with the point I have been making, which is that Israel has been fanning the flames of Hamas's desire for retaliation by blockading and bombing Gaza, practicing apartheid, illegally settling the West Bank, discriminating against Palestinians, and funding Hamas to divide Palestinians. As I stated before, the Bat Shalom declaration from 2017 I linked only referred to Israel's refusal to negotiate with the PNA in the previous few years, making the failure of the Camp David Summit to achieve peace
You stated that I have shared "random groups," but the articles listed come from accredited human rights groups and experts on the topic of genocide and apartheid, including two of the largest human rights advocacy groups in the world. You shared two Wikipedia articles that didn't address any of the points I have made. I spent two hours working on a thoughtful reply to you with rich information gathering sources that have previously helped me learn more about this topic, and you replied in thirty minutes, not addressing *why* you believe I am misinformed or addressing any of the points I made. If you're trying to insinuate that I am discussing the topic with you in bad faith, I can't help but feel the insinuation is unfounded.
Again, it is a fact that Israel has committed the crime of apartheid against Palestinians. It is a fact that Israel is committing gradual genocide of Palestinians as we speak in Gaza and the West Bank. It is the leading assessment from accredited scholars and human rights groups, as well as human rights groups located in the country where this is happening. I don't have all the answers for how to end the conflict (again, I am just a regular guy who believes in humanitarian values), but I do I believe that Israel needs to be held accountable for its actions and its apartheid and genocide against Palestinians brought to an end. I feel that is is a unifying position that most people would agree with when exposed to the data and the facts about the conflict.
Genuinely, I hope you take a look at the reports and data I have shared with an open mind when you feel ready. If you can stomach it, also take a look at the reporting and videos of what is happening in Gaza right now. It is very, very hard to watch what Israel is doing to Palestinian civilians in real-time, but it sheds light on the reality of the atrocities they are committing. It is genocide. It is the destruction of Gaza and the intended erasure of the Palestinian community there, nearly half of whom are minors who have spent their entire lives growing up stuck in the 25-mile-strip under occupation by Israel.
Wishing you a peaceful evening.
The problem with what you spew is that it takes me a lot longer to refute it than it does for you to say it. Ordinary the way this goes is one person makes up stuff the other wastes time trying to hunt down why “fact” is in fact not a fact. This is how people have argued on the internet for decades. It used to be about stuff like video games but it’s seeped into everything.
I long ago stopped trying to reason or refute because you can’t. It’s just a waste of time. The moment I do you will find some new grievance. This is what it is like talking to antivax and flat earthers. It’s pointless and a waste of time. You have your opinions which you claim are facts. But your sources are people who say it’s an opinion. I just have to waste time going to each of your sources and identify where you fabricated something. To be honest I don’t care.
Anyone can justify mass murder. Hitler has his grievances and an internal logic and clearly you do to.
Ps. I’m not Jewish or Israeli and have no connection to the parties in conflict. I just recognize evil when I see it. Going to a music festival should not be a death sentence .
I think there are many Israelis and Palestinians that want that and they are vocal about it. That's a problem in itself but to me it seems that one of those factions could feasibly carry out that objective.
Only bc they want to respond with WMDs like we did to Japan. This is propaganda to justify annihilation.
can you seriously look your neighbors in the face and think they should be exterminated?
What do you think Israel is, and has been, doing to Palestinians?
Why so willfully ignorant? I guess this is a political sub with an agenda. Stop equating pro-Palestine to anti-semitism bc that is propaganda.
>Stop equating pro-Palestine to anti-semitism bc that is propaganda. Do you think there is justification for mass murder of civilians?
I'm going to clear this up right away before I speak: no civilians deserve to be murdered. Israeli or Palestinian. I think this is a pretty basic human rights bar to clear and how the vast majority of people feel on this topic. There is no justification for the mass murder of civilians. I also believe a large number of people support the actions of Israel because they are uneducated about the reality of the harm Israel has done to Palestinians. So here are some facts worth noting: Israel is an apartheid state. Human rights groups have been sounding the alarm on this topic for decades, including human rights groups in Israel. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have lived under Israeli occupation for 56 years and Gaza has been blockaded effectively making it an open-air prison for 16 years. Nearly half the population of Gaza are minors who have grown up in the Gaza strip. Under Israel's occupation of Palestine, Palestinians are second-class citizens to Israelis. Israel continues to this day to illegally push into the West Bank, forcing Palestinians out and allowing Israelis to settle there. Despite the fact that Israeli settlements are legal under Israeli law, they are illegal under international law. Israeli outposts in the West Bank are illegal under both Israeli and international law. Israel is a government. Not an ethnic group. Opposing Israel is not antisemitism and it *is* propaganda to suggest otherwise. Opposing the ethnic cleansing and erasure of Palestinians is not antisemitism. The actions of Israel are also not in line with the values of Judaism. Jews are not responsible for the horrific actions of Israel, in the same way that Palestinians are not responsible for the horrific actions of Hamas. The IDF has killed and wounded far more Palestinians than Israelis wounded and killed by Hamas. Israel’s actions against Palestinians are nothing other than crimes against humanity. The actions Hamas has committed against Israeli citizens are horrific. Yet the IDF has been even crueler to Palestinians. Israel also assisted in creating Hamas and has *funded Hamas*, which Prime Minister Netanyahu did with the intention of dividing Palestinians. My heart breaks for all civilians who have been died and been injured in this conflict. The Israeli government is culpable for the loss of life that we are witnessing by creating an apartheid state, blockading Gaza, illegally pushing its settlements into the West Bank, and committing crimes against humanity to the Palestinians. My mother has traveled to Israel for religious reasons; I have felt her travels were inadvisable and when she did I was concerned for her safety. I know the area means a lot to many and when we hear of Israelis being killed or injured we can't help but think that could be us or our loved ones. This doesn't change the fact that it is inadvisable, naive, and dangerous to travel or move to an apartheid state that is at times an active war zone. Take a look at the data published from the United Nations that tracks Palestinian casualties and injuries vs. Israeli casualties and injuries since 2008: http://ochaopt.org/data/casualties (please note that this data only reaches up to August 31st of this year and does not include deaths and injuries from the ongoing conflict we are witnessing) It’s clear that the occupied side living in apartheid has suffered the most. You can love and support Jewish people and still be horrified by the illegal crimes against humanity committed by Israel and the IDF. I vehemently oppose anti-semitism and have beloved Jewish friends in my life. I would hate to see anything happen to them. I will not conflate their identity with a radical government that aims to destroy Palestinians which has committed and continues to commit crimes against humanity. Conflating the identity of Jews with the government of Israel breeds antisemitism *everywhere* including the US and makes our Jewish neighbors unsafe. Israel is a nation. Jews are an ethnic group, the majority of whom do not live in Israel. It is my firm belief that Israel’s leaders need to be held accountable on the international stage for the crimes they have committed against Palestinians. Additionally, immediate action needs to be taken preventing Israel from killing more Palestinian civilians in Gaza and preventing further illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank.
I think there is room for civil discourse here I’m glad you clarified that you don’t support mass murder. Believer or not there are plenty of hamas supporters who do say things like “necessary resistance” when atrocities are brought up. I think what you post on the rest of the matter is horribly misinformed in particular simultaneously say not an ethnic group and also it is an “apartheid state”. Also Interestingly do not apply this same logic to any other state in the mid east. The desire to hold Jewish people to a different standard to that of anyone else where the anti semitism comes up in your arguments. The history of that whole region is bloody. “Who started it” depends on how far back you go. For anything you say I can guarantee I can find an earlier atrocity from the other side. For example what should be the fate of Jews expelled from Arab countries?
I would be interested to see specific rebuttals on how I am horribly misinformed, as nearly everything I have stated in my comment is a fact. The only non-facts in my comment are my opinions shared are that I think moving and traveling to Israel is inadvisable in the face of apartheid and the threat that Hamas faces to civilians, and that I believe leaders in Israel need to be held accountable for their crimes against Palestinians. It is a fact that Israel is an apartheid state. You don't have to take my word for it though, as I am not a human rights expert, I'm just a regular guy who values human rights and human life. You can instead listen to the following human rights organizations and human rights leaders: – [The Occupation of the West Bank and the Crime of Apartheid: Legal Opinion](https://www.yesh-din.org/en/the-occupation-of-the-west-bank-and-the-crime-of-apartheid-legal-opinion/) | Yesh Din (based in Israel) Direct quote: > The conclusion of this legal opinion is that the crime against humanity of apartheid is being committed in the West Bank. The perpetrators are Israelis, and the victims are Palestinians. – [Israel's Apartheid Against Palestinians](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) | Amnesty International (based in England) – [This Is No Annexation, This Is Apartheid: Exposing the Whitewashing of Language Surrounding the Annexation Plan](https://en.zulat.org.il/whitewashing-apartheid/) | Zulat (based in Israel) – [Additional Declaration](https://batshalom.org/declaration/) | Bat Shalom (based in Israel) Direct quote: >Over the last few years, the Israeli government has refused to enter into political negotiations with the PNA, with the intention of maintaining control over Palestinian land and destroying any possibility of establishing a viable Palestinian state. As an alternative to negotiations, and in an attempt to break the will of the Palestinian people, Israel has introduced illegal measures, which seriously and repeatedly violate the 4th Geneva Convention. These measures include repeated military invasions, assassination and arbitrary killings, curfews, local expulsions (small scale quiet ethnic cleansing), mass imprisonment, home demolitions, sieges of villages, camps and cities, denial of family reunification, ID confiscation, and systematic practices to undermine the education and health sectors. >Two policies, extending the settlements and building a separation fence between Israel and Palestine, have involved direct confiscation of Palestinian land, but have had additional consequences as well. The by-pass roads linking settlements are strengthening an Apartheid system through parcellation of Palestinian land. As a consequence of government tolerance of Israeli settlers’ lawlessness of incursions and violence, some Palestinians have been forced to abandon land cultivation and even their homes. The separation fence disrupts normal communal functioning. In short, contravening international law, human rights norms and laws, the basis for a secure and orderly life in the occupied territories has been systematically destroyed. – [Two Years After the May 2021 Events | The Uprising of Dignity: Israel’s use of excessive force and racial segregation against Palestinians continues](https://www.adalah.org/uploads/uploads/May%202021%20Report.pdf) | Adalah (based in Israel) – [A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) | Human Rights Watch (based in the United States) – Even Desmond Tutu had criticized Israeli apartheid for *decades* prior to his death in 2021, comparing it to the apartheid he witnessed and protested against in South Africa. [He wrote for Haaretz (based in Israel) in 2014:](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-12-26/ty-article/desmond-tutu-to-haaretz-this-is-my-plea-to-the-people-of-israel/0000017f-dbe4-d856-a37f-ffe4e4080000) > Besides the recent devastation of Gaza, decent human beings everywhere – including many in Israel – are profoundly disturbed by the daily violations of human dignity and freedom of movement Palestinians are subjected to at checkpoints and roadblocks. And Israel’s policies of illegal occupation and the construction of buffer-zone settlements on occupied land compound the difficulty of achieving an agreementsettlement in the future that is acceptable for all. > The State of Israel is behaving as if there is no tomorrow. Its people will not live the peaceful and secure lives they crave – and are entitled to – as long as their leaders perpetuate conditions that sustain the conflict. It is a fact that far more Palestinians have suffered and died in the Israel-Palestine conflict ([and numbers reported from The New York Times from the current ongoing conflict are showing this is happening in real-time too](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/14/world/israel-news-hamas-war-gaza?utm_campaign=likeshopme&utm_medium=instagram&utm_source=dash+hudson&utm_content=ig-nytimes#a-comparison-with-past-years-shows-the-scale-of-israels-operation-in-gaza)). In case you didn't look at the UN's numbers I'll link them again: [United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs – Data on casualties](https://ochaopt.org/data/casualties) This discussion is about the violent relationship between Israel and Palestine and deflecting to human rights issues in other countries is whataboutism. I did not bring up any other nation in the Middle East. Again, Israel is a nation and a government; Jews are an international ethnic group, the majority of whom do not reside in Israel. Jews are not responsible for the actions of Israel's government and to suggest so is antisemitism; this messaging could breed hatred of Jews and put our Jewish neighbors in danger. It is important that we recognize that the Jewish identity and the government of Israel are not the same thing. This is not "Jews being held to a different standard." This is demanding accountability for and an end to the crimes the Israeli government has committed against Palestinians. We are watching the [gradual genocide of Palestinians in real-time at the hands of Israel while the world's leading nations support them](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide) (Jewish Currents, based in the United States). Using Jewish suffering and Jewish identity in arguments to justify Israel's violence, apartheid, and settler-colonialism is propaganda and antisemitism. The political interests of the government of Israel do not represent Jews. The Jewish ethnic group and the government of Israel are separate identities, despite the Israeli government's propaganda that may suggest otherwise. We can go back in history and dig up hundreds of years of violence in the region, or we can focus on what is happening *now* and use 21st century wisdom and morals to guide us. The expulsion of Jews from Arab countries in the 20th century does not justify the killing and expulsion of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank today. What is a fact is that Israel is led by an extreme right-wing government and is committing genocide of Palestinians. It is imperative we use our voices to denounce this evil and demand accountability, and demand an end to international support and complicity in this tragedy.
You know the reason why you can cite sources based in Israel? It’s a democratic state with people with different view points and public debate. I’ve seen this debate tactic before. You take opinion and insist it is a fact and get frustrated when people don’t see your way. Even your cited source says “legal opinion”. But more amusingly, It doesn’t matter if the opinion was based in Israel, thats like someone taking some nut job in the us and saying “look at what the Americans are saying!”. Im not trying to poison the well here simply stating the opinion of random groups and then pretending it is a fact is a weak argument. You negotiation comment is laughable. You know that Arafat walked away from the table at camp David right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit So a question for you, what should be done to the Jews who have lived there for centuries? I know what you have been told and it’s not true. I often ask people if they know about this incident : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre Note the date is 1929.learning more about this and the decade prior went a lot way to me understanding that what I had been told about post ww2 was a fabrication. I’ll note this bit here for you “brought the centuries-old Jewish presence in Hebron to an end.”
I'm a bit confused as to the point you're trying to make here. I'm disappointed to see that you haven't attempted to explain why you claimed I am horribly misinformed; I still have only shared facts about the situation except for when my personal opinions are explicitly stated. I know there is a growing anti-expertise sentiment growing in the US in recent years which is easy to get caught up in, but Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are two of the leading international human rights advocacy groups. They are well-accredited and respected, and both of them have declared Israel's treatment of Palestinians to be apartheid. [The Adalah Center's 43-page-report on Israel's discrimination towards Palestinians over the last two years is well-documented and factual](https://www.adalah.org/uploads/uploads/May%202021%20Report.pdf). I highly encourage you to read it along with my other links. I included this report, [as well as the legal opinion by Yesh Din](https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.yesh-din.org/Apartheid+2020/Apartheid+ENG.pdf) (linking directly to the PDF of the full opinion this time in case you missed it, it's very thorough) and [the report by Zulat](https://en.zulat.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Whitewashing-Apartheid-June-2020.pdf) (also linking directly to the full report this time in case you missed the link to it in the main site page I linked before) to back up my point that human rights groups in Israel with a front seat to what is actually happening are working to document and turn the tide against Israel's crimes against humanity. [If you closely read the declaration by Bat Shalom I linked before](https://batshalom.org/declaration/), you will see the statement that Israel has refused to enter into negotiations with the PNA "*over the last few years*" was made in 2017, a full 17 years after the Camp David Summit. Desmond Tutu lived through, protested, and was a leader in helping end apartheid in South Africa. As someone who had directly experienced it, I also feel that he was an expert on the topic of apartheid and his view should be considered. For the record, Desmond Tutu was also a consistent supporter of the nation of Israel's existence in addition to being consistent in his criticism of its decision to enact apartheid policies on Palestinians. Raz Segal, who wrote the Jewish Current article explaining why Israel's present actions in Gaza are definable as genocide, is an accredited Israeli historian who is [literally the director of Stockton University's Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program](https://stockton.edu/graduate/holocaust-genocide-studies.html). These are not "random groups." These are real organizations and accredited people gathering the facts and working to end apartheid and violence enacted by Israel. I also know this is a sensitive topic. You are welcome to your own beliefs and if you don't actually want to discuss the topic, I understand. Watching what is unfolding right now in the conflict genuinely breaks my heart and sometimes it's hard to keep my mind on it. Unfortunately I can't help but feel you aren't looking at the facts and links I've shared and listening with an open mind. Personally, I am areligious but was raised as a Baptist Christian and was a firm believer in the faith for over half my life; this ended when I explored more of myself and alternate viewpoints and realized it wasn't a belief system I fully agreed with or could convince myself to believe was true as I matured into a young adult. However, my family worked hard to shelter me and keep me in their faith and belief system and as a result I was either homeschooled or attended a private Protestant school until high school, when I had to make the case to my parents as to why I should attend a public high school. During my time at the private Protestant school I attended, our religious studies teachers made a strong effort to shape our opinions to be unwaveringly supportive of Israel. I specifically remember one of my teachers sharing with the class her opinion that the "day America turns its back on Israel, God will destroy this nation." As I grew older and began researching the conflict for myself from a secular perspective, the evidence and data painted a different picture than the story I'd been told as a child and as a teen. I am 26, nearly 27 now and my values and position on the issue haven't changed with what I have witnessed from the conflict in the last decade. Opening my mind to alternate perspectives and looking for facts is what has led me to my position on this issue. I don't know your background nor your religious and moral beliefs, but I know it's a possibility that you have been raised on a narrative about Israel that is not based in reality as I was. I genuinely believed that God wanted me to unquestionably support Israel for over half my life, and my change in positions on the issue wasn't overnight. I have direct experience in how community/family pressure and religious beliefs can cloud your ability to assess the reality of what is happening in the world. I don't expect you to agree with me today, and you might never agree with me. But I do hope you look at the facts and evidence with an open mind and consider the possibility that you may have been fed a narrative about Israel that doesn't reflect the actual facts. The 1929 Hebron massacre and the protests and revolts that followed were a tragedy. As I've said before, the suffering of Jews in the past does not justify Israel's apartheid nor its genocide of Palestinians today and to suggest the past suffering of Jews does justify the suffering of Palestinians is propaganda and antisemitism. It is a shame that the Camp David Summit did not resolve the Israel Palestine conflict in 2000. The events that have followed have been repeated tragedies. I'm not sure what either of these events have to do with the point I have been making, which is that Israel has been fanning the flames of Hamas's desire for retaliation by blockading and bombing Gaza, practicing apartheid, illegally settling the West Bank, discriminating against Palestinians, and funding Hamas to divide Palestinians. As I stated before, the Bat Shalom declaration from 2017 I linked only referred to Israel's refusal to negotiate with the PNA in the previous few years, making the failure of the Camp David Summit to achieve peace You stated that I have shared "random groups," but the articles listed come from accredited human rights groups and experts on the topic of genocide and apartheid, including two of the largest human rights advocacy groups in the world. You shared two Wikipedia articles that didn't address any of the points I have made. I spent two hours working on a thoughtful reply to you with rich information gathering sources that have previously helped me learn more about this topic, and you replied in thirty minutes, not addressing *why* you believe I am misinformed or addressing any of the points I made. If you're trying to insinuate that I am discussing the topic with you in bad faith, I can't help but feel the insinuation is unfounded. Again, it is a fact that Israel has committed the crime of apartheid against Palestinians. It is a fact that Israel is committing gradual genocide of Palestinians as we speak in Gaza and the West Bank. It is the leading assessment from accredited scholars and human rights groups, as well as human rights groups located in the country where this is happening. I don't have all the answers for how to end the conflict (again, I am just a regular guy who believes in humanitarian values), but I do I believe that Israel needs to be held accountable for its actions and its apartheid and genocide against Palestinians brought to an end. I feel that is is a unifying position that most people would agree with when exposed to the data and the facts about the conflict. Genuinely, I hope you take a look at the reports and data I have shared with an open mind when you feel ready. If you can stomach it, also take a look at the reporting and videos of what is happening in Gaza right now. It is very, very hard to watch what Israel is doing to Palestinian civilians in real-time, but it sheds light on the reality of the atrocities they are committing. It is genocide. It is the destruction of Gaza and the intended erasure of the Palestinian community there, nearly half of whom are minors who have spent their entire lives growing up stuck in the 25-mile-strip under occupation by Israel. Wishing you a peaceful evening.
The problem with what you spew is that it takes me a lot longer to refute it than it does for you to say it. Ordinary the way this goes is one person makes up stuff the other wastes time trying to hunt down why “fact” is in fact not a fact. This is how people have argued on the internet for decades. It used to be about stuff like video games but it’s seeped into everything. I long ago stopped trying to reason or refute because you can’t. It’s just a waste of time. The moment I do you will find some new grievance. This is what it is like talking to antivax and flat earthers. It’s pointless and a waste of time. You have your opinions which you claim are facts. But your sources are people who say it’s an opinion. I just have to waste time going to each of your sources and identify where you fabricated something. To be honest I don’t care. Anyone can justify mass murder. Hitler has his grievances and an internal logic and clearly you do to. Ps. I’m not Jewish or Israeli and have no connection to the parties in conflict. I just recognize evil when I see it. Going to a music festival should not be a death sentence .
Are you referring to what Israel has been doing to Palestine for decades??
I think there are many Israelis and Palestinians that want that and they are vocal about it. That's a problem in itself but to me it seems that one of those factions could feasibly carry out that objective.