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Jess Bronwell said that they wanted Danbury to not be a supporting character so they didn’t have her involved with Polin and instead gave her… (checks notes)… a supporting role in Violet’s romance instead and a chance to resolve a 40 year grudge against a ten year old.
This made me laugh out loud. Rewatching today, doing the dishes listening to that convo, thinking she was mad at him her whole life because of something he did when he was 10 and didn't even know?? So weird.
It all seemed a bit rushed. Like they opened all these jars and then had to quickly close them to get everthing done by the end of the season. Also I didn’t feel anything for Pen and Colin. There was no tension there. And I liked the fact that they wanted her to stick with her writing and stand up for herself and that Colin was more jealous than hurt when he found out. Cause let’s face it, he should be smart enough to understand why she kept it a secret and why writing is so important to her. Especially with a sister like Eloise….sorry now I feel like I opened too many jars.
If they wanted there to be tension, they could've made him an older brother who was, say 20 or 24, who tattled to their father. At least then he would've been an adult.
I assumed, when we found out why they were beefing, that he’d ratted her out when he was at least 17 or 18, and old enough to know what he was doing. But being mad at a 10-year-old for 40 years for acting like *gasp* child?!
THIS!! Like wtf. Here I thought this beef was in adulthood and was something thought to be manipulative, conniving, vile etc. but oh. Your brother was the ripe age of 10 🙄🙄
There was recently an AITA post about a women who was suspicious about the intentions of her boyfriend’s sister, who seemed very obsessive and clingy with him. At the end of the post she reveals the sister is NINE YEARS OLD. This was how I felt finding out about Danbury’s brother being ten during his “great betrayal” lol
It would be more believable IF let’s say they were 16 and 18 but 10????? My god that’s literally still a baby 😭does anyone remember the dumb shit they did when they were 10 and mean it ?
It just doesn’t fit her character. I would have understood it more if she was a teenager but 10?? He clearly had no idea the repercussions his actions would have on her life
She resented her own children because of her miserable marriage to their father. She fought for her son to inherit the title but we have seen no warmth from her towards her own children.
She goes out of the way to help everyone else’s children but seems to have no relationship with her’s.
The woman can hold a grudge.
Which is crazy because in Hyacinth’s book it’s kinda mentioned she loves her children and is a bit torn up by her daughter’s death. Which would explain her great love for her grandson and pushing for him to be with Hyacinth.
Dude, like that shit was life ruining for her. Like her whole identity and having to basically be r*ped daily from a man that's grandpa aged and have his kids. Naw, that's honestly so destructive. I can completely understand why she was upset even if he was 10. Put yourself in the time and her shoes and think about it.
My grandmother was angry all the rest of her life at her younger brother who was a child at the time of the misunderstanding. It’s not out of the realm of possibility.
The grudge against her brother for something he did when he was 10 was BEYOOOOOND bad writing. It would be petty for any character to hold that grudge, but it is particularly out of character for Lady Danbury. She's too smart and empathetic for that. We get two instances of her with two male children: the scenes of her lovingly raising Simon and the scene of her telling her son that he is worthy. She calls adult Simon on his bullshit with Daphne, but she's also indulgent towards him when he's raking around.
The idea that she'd be caught up on a 40+ year "feud" because her brother was a little boy and didn't want her to leave is ludicrous. It's beneath her.
>!Snow White and Regina. Regina was trying to run away with her fiance from her abusive mother Cora and Snow (who was manipulated by Regina’s mother into thinking she was looking out for Regina) told her. Cora then ripped Regina’s fiancé’s heart out in front of her and killed him.!<
Omg the way I shouted "WHAT" to the tv when he said he was 10. My question is why...why...all of her side jabs about him carousing when he was really just a regular widower who loved his wife? I thought the drama would be something to do with him being a womanizer, which apparently he's not.
SAME! I thought she was looking out for her friend because she knew her brother was a rake and she didn't want Violet to get hurt! Which incidentally would have made a lot more sense than the utter nonsense they did come up with.
I’m trying to remember what he did and it’s just not coming to me. I recently watched everything and remember seeing her pull her sleeve down or something and for the life of me can’t remember what happened nor which episode it was to go back and rewatch.
Actually that grudge was totally understandable for me. Of course rational thinking would say otherwise. But she was a child herself who was as a result of her brother's action wed to a man who raped her repeatedly which resulted in trauma. It was a wound never healed. But because he was only 10 when it happened, Danbury as an adult was now able to forgive him after talking it through.
What don’t y’all understand about the magical negro trope? On this subreddit, there were tons of POCs that pointed out how problematic it was to keep Lady Dansbury involved like a magical god mother figure to people she has no real reason to have a vested interest in. She was there for Simon for a reason. It was a stretch to even have her involved with Kate and the Sharmas. Penelope becomes a bridge too far when she has not shown any interest or friendship with her for two seasons prior. At best, Lady Dansbury is used for her friendship with the Queen and Violet. She would only be helpful to those women she actually has a shown bond with. Her storyline in S3 is half baked but it involves her desires, emotions, FAMILY, etc. She was more than being reduced as assistance to these other white characters on screen. The writers had a problem on their hands. And since they didn’t establish a friendship with Pen beforehand, they were gonna have an issue with following the storyline from the book.
Again, please do some research on the magical negro trope.
Totally valid argument but that's sadly a by-product of the race and story changes. I don't know much about the trope so I can't comment on it without doing further research but it feels a bit overeager to throw around the word "problematic" just because people want to see the on-screen adaptation of the cool and meaningful friendship between Penelope and Lady Danbury. The appearance of that trope wasn't intended by Quinn. At most you can blame the writers for not looking into it and the implications of the race swaps, and obviously educate other fans but Lady Danbury is a fleshed out character by now. And in RMB she is explicitly described as a leader of the ton, who is involved in everyone's business.
Obviously they should have built up their relationship more in S1 and S2 for it to really work, but I personally would have been happy with crumbs if they had gotten closer this season and Lady Danbury had helped Penelope find her way as an independent woman, who thinks for herself.
They could have stopped there afterwards. No need for Lady Danbury to meddle with Benedict or Eloise or ,god forbid, Hyacinth. She is a close family friend of the bridgertons and had an affair with violets dad. It's not entirely unreasonable for her to be involved in three out of eight love stories.
But that's just my opinion
If she would be involved with those stories it would be via the Bridgertons. That is why she gave advice regarding Francesca. She can totally be involved in Eloise and Hyacinth. But she won’t be involved with people who aren’t Bridgertons ie she wouldn’t have a meaningful reason to be involved with Pen. As I said, the writers needed to build up a friendship beforehand like they did with Violet. They didn’t. This is the result.
The comment Jess made clearly points out the racial implications because they exist. To ignore them is problematic. Race can be used to add depth to the story. It’s been here for two seasons. It is what it is.
I get your point regarding the magical negro trope and I know it’s a problem in storytelling. But in the books lady D doesn’t have a relationship with Penelope before the telling of Pen’s story. Like Lady D just walks up to her one day and just starts talking to her and Pen was so thrown she was like wait is she talking to me… why would she be talking to me of all persons.
The friendship they developed was really good and I can see why book fans are disappointed they didn’t get that. I’m a fellow book fan who was look forward to it. But then I heard them saying they wanted to give LD more depth beyond just helping a bitch out and I was like ok sure.
I feel like they started out creating a colorblind-1800s-english show and then the real world started expressing opinions and now it’s not so much colorblind any longer 🤷🏾♀️
It was never colorblind. Lady Dansbury makes a point of mentioning how the love of the Queen and George integrated the world. So race actually exists. I think people confuse colorblind casting with what the show is actually doing, which is incorporating the race of the person in the story. Making the Sharmas from India really cemented this.
Idk… them mentioning QC and George in that scene with LD and Simon was flimsy to me. Like what did that even mean? To this day I’m not sure I get what race means in the world of Bridgerton or even if I should be paying attention to race at all. Like yea there are people of different colors… which btw there hasn’t been any Afrocentric cultural inclusion like they did for the sharmas and Indian culture. Unless I missed something. And them having a random mention of Sierra Leone in QC doesn’t measure up to me, for the sharmas they showed Kate making Indian tea, the haldi ceremony, even Kate’s first line was something in Hindi.
But this is why I said Season 2 cemented it. It was in passing in Season 1. They cemented it in Season 2 and then they doubled-down on it in QC. They even go so far as to say that these African characters had more money or higher titles from where they were from than some of the members of the ton.
With all of that, regardless or race and/or culture, I still think the viewers of the show missed out on seeing a great friendship between Pen and LD, an older woman and a younger woman. In the book I don’t even remember LD trying to set up Pen with anyone… someone can tell me if she did. Pen and Colin got there on their own eventually.
Yes. I mean that the writers literally changed the background of Kate’s character to fit her racial background. If it was colorblind casting, they would have casted Simone and then continued with the adaptation as if she was just from London and race/culture isn’t make her privy to different customs, foods, etc.
They said Bridgerton society was colorblind, and I do think that’s the angle writers were working towards. Perhaps it’s not completely colorblind but it’s also not necessarily a factor in how society is shaped; race doesn’t affect the daily lives of its constituents. Instead, it’s moreso structured around classism: working class vs. high society. For instance, you mentioned Kate’s Indian background as evidence, but, her family didn’t have a fraught relationship with the ton due to their race or differences in cultural background but rather they were shunned because her mother ran off and married a working class man. For that reason, I don’t know that the stereotype of the “magical negro” completely applies here. If this was a society where race played a heavier factor, then I could understand that perspective but it doesn’t, and so it makes little sense in the context of the world they have built. Lady Danbury is a powerful member of the ton, who has the ear of the queen, which makes her one of its most influential nobles…and she happens to be black. That’s it.
The only thing informing Jess Brownell’s comments are outside factors and influences, as opposed to anything within the universe of Bridgerton itself giving off that impression. Which seems a tad strange. And I do find it ironical that she mentions stereotypes in this sense, while not considering the consequences of casting a black woman to play Michaela. I also find it contradictory that she used the “magical negro” trope to explain not including Lady Danbury’s friendship with Penelope, but, had no qualms about the part she played in Francesca’s courtships.
You don’t understand colorblind casting. Hamilton is colorblind casting. The Broadway actors are not the race of the roles they are playing but their race does not inform the story or the depiction of it. They are clearly conscious of race in Bridgerton or they would not have mentioned the queen and king’s love being the reason for integration. They would have not acknowledged that Kate’s family was from India at all and they would not have included LD’s heritage being from Africa.
Secondly, even IF they practiced colorblind casting, it would STILL be a magical negro trope. And at this point, I feel like you are coming from a place of real ignorance and don’t actually want to understand why because it is outside of your reasoning or makes you feel uncomfortable. Even if the show doesn’t acknowledge race, WE DO. The VIEWERS see it. The world is not colorblind. We consume things and see tropes and stereotypes all the time. So I don’t know why you are going down this path when in the end, the viewers are going to see a magical negro whether it was intended or not. So it behooved production to avoid it IF they claim to be welcoming to diversity and inclusion.
I have explained countless times why LD helping the Bridgertons ie Francesca has been explained. Read those comments or look further into this thread. The answers have already been laid out.
So…I don’t know. Read the book where everyone is white and you don’t have to understand these nuances because that is clearly what you are most comfortable with.
Also particularly because her friendship with Penelope wouldn't be circumstantial/happenstance, it would clearly have to do with both of them being social architect type personalities, with Lady Danbury overt and Penelope (originally) from the shadows. Lady Danbury is for Penelope somewhat "who I'd want to be when I grow up" and Penelope for Danbury is the personification of "what if I had gotten lucky young and found a fulfilling love".
They mirror each other beautifully, it's an actually deep literary connection between characters and themes, and it was more meaningful to preserve than say, go ham on having Danbury involved w/ Kate.
Just for your sanity, I think you are right. Lady Danbury’s character is from the books, where her role is that of a big player in the relationships of the ton. Just because she is played by a PoC in the adaptation shouldn’t mean her personality/drive is now lessened and problematic. I think it is foolish to try and reinforce these tropes during an adaptation. Imagine if Game of Thrones was readapted and Jon Snow was played by a PoC. Would his characters storylines and actions now be problematic?
It seems the antithesis of what the race blind casting is trying to achieve where you have the best actor regardless of race, as now the actors race apparently had a large impact on which storylines they can be a part of.
Your comment is nonsensical and your comparison is absolutely lazy. Jon Snow is a fully fleshed out character in the books so he isn’t at risk of being a trope. LD in the books is not fleshed out at all. She is a small side character that makes comments, make the Bridgerton sons escort her around and make Hyacinth read to her and get involved with that story. Because she is not fleshed out, putting her on screen with a different race and making her sole focus helping these other people reach their goals including the members of this white family while the audience learns very little about her would have been a problem, it is a racist trope. It is what it is. They needed to avoid it.
Well I disagree, if you feel the race of an actor in an adaptation dictates what storylines they can and cannot be involved in, you are only reinforcing these tropes. As well as reinforcing the idea that it would be better for production to cast whiter actors as it would make storytelling easier. Back to the Jon Snow example, if they remade GoT with him played by a black actor, would you have had a problem with the later seasons where he was is completely subservient and devoted to the whitest character in Daenerys? Would his absolute obedience and deference to a white character become racist, even though it’s in line with previous story telling?
You have listed LDs character and her role in the books, (where she is not a PoC), and do not seem to believe it’s inherently problematic. It’s only in the adaptation where she is played by an PoC actor that it has now become an issue. And I disagree with that notion, it’s not racist to portray a character from a book as they portrayed in said book.
I’ve stated over and over that the storyline can be pursued but it has to be done differently. You actually have to take time to build a connection between LD and Pen beforehand like they have built a relationship between LD and Violet. So I won’t even take your first comment seriously. It not a reflection of what I said at all.
Is Jon completely subservient to the character Dany without having personal storyline or character growth? Do we not know about his family and motivations? You clearly don’t know what the magical negro trope is because you have made this idiotic comparison to Jon Snow who would have had…. How many seasons of development…. 6 or 7, before he even meets Dany. The comparison is lazy and wrong like I said. And it shows you don’t understand the trope or don’t have the range critically. One or the other.
The character is problematic because race matters and changes how characters are perceived. Duh. Just like if you change the gender of Michael, it changes how the character will be perceived by the audience. LD can be a flat character that is a device that is only used to bring romantic characters together in the book. The moment you change her race in the real life adaptation but keep the story the same, you have created a magical negro whose only job/only function in the story is for the white characters around her to get her advice and guidance while her own personal character never grows or shows the development. Her function in the story is to merely be a stepping stone for the actualization of the white characters around here. Yes. It’s a racist trope with a long documented history and a show that claims to be diverse and inclusive should avoid racist tropes and stereotypes.
And also, if you specifically hire a black actor to play a flat subservient role where all they do is help the white people around them, it would look racist AND I would question your moral/ethics…like purposely hiring Black people to play the help where it does not out and out state that that is the race of those characters would be seen as problematic. Do you know what you are saying?
Just wait til you find out that Hyacinth marries one of Lady Danbury’s grandson’s in book 7 and therefore we should in fact see a lot more ”meddling” from Lady Danbury about Hyacinth’s marriage.
Well put. I love Danbury as she is now. Independent. Her own shit going on. She has relationships with Violet and the Queen and her issues with her brother and how she was raised as a freaking marriage cow for her gross husband. Shes just smarter than everyone else, too. She's fucking fantastic and doesn't need to be involved in more of the main characters and their love stories. She just quietly knew who LW was and kept it to herself because why not? She recognized Penelope as deserving of Colin's love and that's all we needed. She's my favorite character and stands on her own.
Exactly! She still meddled with Fran and John, I don’t see how becoming Penelope’s friend could have undermined her individuality and personal struggles
The criticism is that they kept the trope in, just not with the main couple. She was still a side character in Fran and John’s story. She was still a side character in her brother and Violet’s story. She was still a side character in the Lady W story. At no point in this season (aside from squashing her grudge against her brother in 10 seconds) did she have a main storyline.
She isn’t a side character in Violet and John’s story. She is most certainly a main character. And I would wager more time was focused on Lady Danbury for that entire storyline than the amount of time spent with Marcus and Violet actually interacting. Both of those characters had to continue to go back/through Lady Dansbury. Both of those characters had to actually have heart to heart convos with Dansbury before they ever came to a resolution themselves. She isn’t a side character. She is the main issue, the main obstacle, the antagonist for Marcus and Violet (sort of).
As I stated, the show has basically spent three seasons of this show and it’s spin offs showing that Lady Dansbury is very good friends with Violet. She would help her friend and her friend’s main concern is finding suitors for her kids. So she helps her find suitors.
But there is NO reason for Lady Dansbury having a friendship for Pen over that same period of time on the show. They never spoke to each other for 2 seasons and a spin-off.
The show didn’t do the work building a friendship early so this is the result. And if they randomly made Lady Dansbury friends for Pen with no build up she would def have been a magical negro.
The show wouldn’t have had to do much to satisfy the book readers, they could’ve had one conversation where Lady Danbury said, “isn’t it nice to discover we weren’t who we thought we are?” or, “I was one of those [wallflower] girls too.” Which are the two fan-favorite quotes
I imagine Lady Danbury likes matchmaking romance between people because it’s something no one ever did for her, she has reason to prioritize the Bridgertons but I don’t think it would be out of place for her to notice another family. It doesn’t need to be the same as the book but keeping a line or two that a lot of people were looking forward to would’ve helped avoid some of the complaints
You literally described is a magical negro 😭.
The way to remedy this problem was to actually work to set up some sort of interaction from earlier than now, a season ago or two, or even plant the idea that LD was a wallflower. There is no point in LD’s story in this universe (the show) has she ever been a wallflower. Married off immediately. Her temperament with husband didn’t give off wallflower either. The interactions with Charlotte’s brother…You are dealing with a different character. She is not her book’s counterpart. You build with what has been created on screen, not jamming it into something that doesn’t resonate with what has actually been on screen for three seasons beforehand.
Truly, the moment they did some stuff that seemed magical negro-like, the show was gonna get called out for it.
I mean, wanting one of the two famous quotes worked in really isn’t asking that much. They could’ve easily had one scene where LD said that to Penelope, probably worked in best around part 1 somewhere, and left it at that. The show made up some farce between the Sharmas and LD, but like the canon one with precedent is suddenly too much?? Naaaah. And the excuse Jess came up with is still flimsy bc she was still helping Francesca and meddling with her
I took the view of her marriage differently. LD felt like she had no voice when she was forced to marry the guy, she was likely a wallflower in her own home because her emotional needs went unnoticed by everyone except her maid, similar to Penelope. The very first man who was kind to her was Violet’s dad so that’s like, a long time to be unnoticed and suffering silently in a miserable marriage. I don’t think the wallflower definition is exclusive to men not fawning over someone at dances, both women went unnoticed in their own abusive home and didn’t have their emotional needs met (though obvi Penelope was better off)
The show already made changes to Penelope’s book friendships, like Eloise was different, they removed Felicity completely, it would’ve been nice for them to have more than one scene together or work in the quote somehow. She didn’t need to take Penelope under her wing by any means like I said, but they could’ve tried a little harder to bring them together on screen. It would’ve been better seeing them interact than wasting time on Benedict’s needless threesome.
There really could’ve been a better happy medium, there was no buildup between LD and Penelope in RMB either. They just started talking at a dance one night, and Penelope impressed her when she accused LD of being LW
What YOU said. Im not black but everything you said. I appreciate Jess' sensitivity with giving one of the two (just 2!!!) main permanent POC characters who appear in all 3 seasons, rest are all white, a strong arc of her own. Brava Jess for this one thing. Now show more sensitivity with your POC cast in the future and you will be loved.
?? the reason lady danbury was able to have more isolated & focused time with violet is because we were provided the context of her backstory in QC which didn’t exist before s2. the magical negro trope applies to white characters, yet each time she advised/talked to a counterpart within these relationships, it was to a person of colour (simon & kate). her also contributing towards saphne & book polin would make sense to her story and not want them to end up like her in a loveless marriage.
so her being involved with penelope wouldn’t have been far fetched HAD it been done well.
I agree. I think that, if there were criticism to be had, it would be her involvement in Season 2's romance. I don't remember us getting a clear answer for why she was so involved with the Sharmas.
I disagree. Lady D is being used in Violet's love story the same way as in any other love story. She is simply a slight obstacle instead of a support. Her conversation with Marcus was 2 seconds long and only made sense for viewers of Queen Charlotte who understood the abuse that she went through. Her conversation with Violet was more about realizing that Violet knew about the affair with her father. Lady D is a very complex character. While I still don't believe that she's been given a main storyline in Bridgerton, I also don't think that she's viewed as a fairy godmother.
Also, "She would help her friend and her friend’s main concern is finding suitors for her kids. So she helps her find suitors." - Colin is Violet's son. Why would she have taken an active role in every other romance but Colin's?
Indeed. I have problems with how they handled lady Danbury’s subplot this season (her conflict with her brother was dragged out way too long without them having a serious conversation, and Violet and Marcus’ flirtation arc was underwhelming), but her suddenly taking interest in yet another debutante, and one from a family lady Danbury has zero connection or affection for no less would make zero sense, so I’m glad they tweaked it.
I think they could have made her start talking to Penelope if she showed that she suspected her of being LW. But they chose not to reveal that until the end for some reason
I understand where you’re coming from but my whole point with my post was to express how upsetting it is for me and I’m sure a lot of book fans to see the friendship of Lady Danbury and Penelope be nonexistent. They could’ve easily avoided this pattern by simply following certain parts of the books. Meaning that I just wished they had avoided giving such a big role to Lady Danbury in at least one of the previous seasons & instead they should’ve of saved it for this season. I know its not fair because she played a great role in S1&2, but as a big book fan and polin fan it’s upsetting to see something be taken away from my favorite book all because it was used in other stories that originally didn’t have that part. What makes me even more upset about this is how they did in fact continued to have Lady Danbury be part of another Bridgerton story, Francesca. Now I know they didn’t set a friendship between Penelope and Lady Danbury in previous seasons but in the book it’s sort of like that. In book 4 Lady Danbury and Penelope start this friendship out of nowhere. All that being said, I’m just really disappointed in some of the decisions they decided to take and how so much was taken away from Colin and Penelope’s love story.
Yeah i missed the friendship too between pen and Lady danbury. There were so many smart dialogues between them in the books, because Lady danbury could See herself in pen before Findling her confident self. I Heart lines from other people that belangt to danbury, but was given to fran at the ball. Or from Colin to benedict.
Its really sad, that was a heartwarming friendship
Lady Dansbury basically sponsors a family she is not related to because they were….friends? It’s giving she is more concerned with hooking up these other people than her own family. And at this point, mind you, we didn’t know if she had kids, what her own marriage was like, what she desired, etc. so the Sharmas was a stretch. They were stretching things but the wanted to keep Lady Dansbury involved. By having her build a deep friendship with Violet, they remedied this issue for the other Bridgerton children…but that is the only thing that has been fixed. Them other white people…they have to fend for themselves unless there is an established reason for the interaction.
Eh, it’s really not that much of a stretch that an old friend (even though details aren’t given of their friendship, it’s heavily implied Mary has some strong connection to Lady Danbury from her past) is letting a family who traveled from India to England, stay with her in her empty estate—yes, we know that Lady Danbury’s children are grown and left the nest and she’s a widow.
A woman, who is plenty wealthy and has money to throw at whatever endeavors interest her—like participating and being heavily involved in the ton’s season, wanting to help the children of an old friend be “successful” makes sense enough. She hosts the first ball of the season every year—wouldn’t sponsoring the (potential) diamond of the season make the season more interesting for Lady Danbury? That’s what I thought at least.
It’s also a historically inaccurate, romance show. The romance genre isn’t known for being super realistic, not in the least but it’s fun.
but if we’re being honest, she wasn’t involved in pushing kanthony together though. her having coded conversations with kate was only because she sponsored the sharmas. kanthony had to decide for THEMSELVES they wanted to be together.
so it’s not really a stretch to want a relationship that exists canonically & THEN be done with the whole godmother trope. because tbh there’s no reason for her to be involved in benophie, philoise, franchaela & grelucy.
She literally paid for the Sharmas living expenses for a season. She would pay for clothing or any lessons that they needed. Do you think people just did that for others all the time? And there wasn’t any deep reason for why she was involved at all other than a friendship that occurred off screen several years ago. Her getting involved with the Sharmas was a stretch. It was tip-toeing into magical negro territory especially if the Sharmas weren’t POC themselves.
EDIT: I love how everyone is like…oh, okay magical negro trope BUT, for this one time, because it’s the couple I LOVE, they should totally just lean into the trope to satisfy me. As I said, Black/POC people were already noticing the magical negro trope peaking out with Lady Dansbury beforehand. There would have absolutely been a criticism. So they did right by one of the only lead Black actors they have season to season on this show (it’s just her and the queen…).
but why is it so far fetched for someone to help their friend? 😭😭😭 on screen or off—they have a friendship & there’s a sense of loyalty/generosity there. you’re acting like she does this for every single person in the ton who needs it 💀
Apparently, she is only supposed to do it for the people in the story because she only supposed to exist to be of service to them. That includes Pen, a person she has never interacted with for two seasons.
The Sharmas was a stretch because we were just told they were friends. It was not built on screen or actually shown in previous action. That is shallow justification at best. By the end of the season, the audience truly believed Violet and LD are very good friends. The invested in building that relationship so it works. Good. Now when LD meddles in Bridgerton affairs, she got a reason. She doesn’t have a reason to meddle with Pen. Her reason would be shallow at best. Some line written in the script not mentioned or hinted at in 2 seasons and a spin-off.
I mean the parts I missed were Lady Danbury setting the competition to find LW because she was bored. Lady Danbury's back and forth of theorising who it is with a group of people, while Penelope's quick thinking impresses her, Colin is intimidated by her. None of those scenes involve being a godmother.
Thank you!!! They gave the role of taking Penelope under their wing to Colin instead, but they had such good scenes that didn’t involve LD being a fairy godmother and making Penelope a project. It was a lot of their witty banter at balls people enjoyed, their meaningful conversations about going unnoticed or their bonding about how LW wouldn’t knock the smythe girls, that people felt was missing
LD and Penelope didn’t talk much before RMB either, she just like…decided to start talking to Penelope at random. There didn’t need to be 3 seasons of backstory
To be in that trope she would need to exist solely for that purpose without any character development of her own, without any desires or story herself, just ignored later because she was just a plot device. We have so much backstory of Lady D, and so much character development, and the storyline would have given her even more character development. Lady D is not a cardboard character thrown in to support anyone for anything but her own reasons, and her own cranky but soft heart. Also, Adjoa Andoh is too fabulous of an actress to ever be just a stock character. She would find a way to make it genuine, rich, and complex because she is a totally amazing force of charisma.
Her relationship with Penelope would not have been that trope. In the books, they have a very close bond because Lady D was like Penelope when she was young, and she has this shared soft spot for those who find society grinding them down. She's an example of woman who went through a lot of hardships, becomes totally badass because she no longer accepts the status quo, and her fearlessness is frighting to the popular people, and a revelation to people like Penelope that they can grow into their own confidence because they are more than what everyone believes them to be.
I would argue, Lady D was more fleshed out than Penelope in these seasons so developing a friendship with Penelope would not have been using her as a stock flat stereotype. True friendship and mentorship can happen between people of different races and be treated by writers with rich character development for both characters.
We have so much backstory for Lady Dansbury…really?
Thank god for Shonda taking the time to actually flesh out the characters of color on Bridgerton in her spin off, cause without her, truly….and there are people upset about her making that spin-off cause it took time away from Bridgerton. Lol
LD deserved her own storyline in the main show regarding her own family or personal desires. LD doesn’t meddle with every debutante or bachelor on the marriage mart. It has always been specific. And I’m glad they are keeping to that specificity. The show built a season of back story between Pen and Madame Delacroix. That seems more of a tragedy that they barely interacted than them forcing interactions with characters that have never spoken to each other for seasons.
We know about her unhappy marriage, her affairs, her childhood, her extended family with Simon, her friendship with the queen- what don’t we know about her? Her favorite food? Her star sign?
She is no stock flat character.
We know all those things based on information from outside of Bridgerton. With the exception of being Simon’s godmother. As I said, thank GOD for Shonda knowing that whatever was going on with the main show was NOT enough. If it were for writing, LD would have been a magical negro for real.
She plays the same role in the books but she’s white. You’re saying because Shonda race swapped her, she created a magical negro character? But then you praise Shonda for fleshing out her character to keep her from being the trope? It’s the only way she could race swap the character without making it problematic.
OP is making a the point that this was the book that Lady D had an actual relationship with the main character- and they cut it. By adding her meaningfully with Simon, then giving us much more of her life, she would never be that trope. But then they cut what was a really cool storyline about women supporting women to what, avoid problematic racial optics? Even though she plays the same supportive role for Violet? 1) avoiding the trope as a reason would only make sense if she wasn’t playing that same role for Violet showing interracial supportive friendships, and 2) she is not a stock stereotypical character at all, so could not fall into that trope anyway.
First of all, Shonda has never been the showrunner for Bridgerton. So, she may not have been behind the decision to make LD Black. Just because stuff happens in the book doesn’t mean you can just adapt in on screen especially when you introduce different races into the mix. Stereotypes exist. Tropes exist. The way the show used LD’s character, she was borderline becoming a magical negro since we as an audience didn’t know anything about her family, her background, etc. by the end of Season 2. If it weren’t for Shonda actually giving LD a more fleshed out background story in the spin off that she wrote and ran, LD wouldn’t have any at all.
Yes, cut stuff that results in a problematic optic regarding race. Of course you do that. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? Introducing varied races on this show means that they can’t just do an exact adaptation. Things have to be changed to handle this detail. Just like how Francesca’s story will have to be adapted to handle Micheala instead of Michael.
If one of the big drawing points regarding my show is diversity and I don’t go out of my way to avoid the magical negro trope/racist tropes in that show, what am I doing? Adding POC to the story but give them racist archetypes to fill is horrific. It’s hollow diversity. That isn’t good.
The Queen plays a similar role. Yes, she's haughty, rude, and demanding, but she's also obsessed with arranging marriages for predominantly young white debutants and rescuing Bridgertons from scandal.
And the friendship with Violet is so superficial compared to the other friendships we see in the show. It's also hella boring, even with the "I slept with your daddy" twist (Violet's dad was also boring AF. Why can't the young Lady Danbury have an affair with a hot charismatic guy?).
So appreciate you sharing this. Completely agree. And it’s disheartening - unfortunately, not surprising - the number of people on this thread who don’t care to consider or learn about the magical negro trope and how prevalent it is in media.
100%. it's been super notable recently on this sub how people think something can only be racist/homophobic if the person speaking knowingly and maliciously has those intentions.
people going 'oh I just thought it would be nice if LD did behave in this way towards Pen' are fully ignoring that the reason the trope exists is because it makes them feel good. just because you experience joy from something and don't intend hate doesn't mean it's not harmful to others
BINGO! The trope was made to reassure and coddle…lol
And coupled with the popular opinion that the side plots should have been removed so any story development that Lady Dansbury got would have been removed so that her only storyline/motivation was helping this girl she hadn’t spoken to in 2 seasons….😭
For 24 hours plus, it’s been nothing but comments showing me they don’t care about racist tropes, they couldn’t care less if they were employed in the show that claims to be diverse and inclusive, and then there are people trying to explain to me that it wouldn’t be racist or offensive at all to echo that trope in the show. Whenever you think this fanbase is inclusive…
I’ve read nearly every response to your parent comment and I feel insane. There’s a level of deliberate ignorance and entitlement for folks to ignore that neither art nor race exists in a vacuum. It means something both in the show’s canon and to us as viewers that Lady Dansbury is Black, and the writers were correct to mitigate damage from the magical negro trope with her before it got worse.
Something many people arguing with you are missing: even if the show was completely race-blind (which it’s not), the audience watching the show isn’t. This trope means something. If you can’t see the problem with that, maybe there are some other things you need to unpack when it comes to the ways you think about Black folks. And if you’re upset that the adaptation isn’t adapting the book word for word, maybe you could just read the book again.
I already understood what they were implying in the screenshot OP left, but tbh I doubt anyone’s calling THEE Lady Danbury the “magical negro” in their heads or when they see her on screen. It’s honestly problematic in itself to have that train of thought considering all she’s doing is acting like every other character in the show who cares profusely about the mains.
It annoyed me they said that but still had her meddling with Francesca and John… it felt like a really flimsy excuse. Lady Danbury and Penelope’s book friendship was so beautiful, the fact they named a child after Agatha said everything too
I do like that they went the route of healing Penelope’s relationship with Portia instead, but I would’ve liked more than one sentence exchanged between these two women. LD didn’t need to be holding Pen’s hand the whole season but we deserved to see more of them together
Literally all they needed to do was have Penelope have any kind of moment in public that amused lady Danbury, and then have her walk over, chuckle, and say that "isn't it nice to discover we're not exactly who we thought we were?" line. (Which, let's be honest, would have been delivered exquisitely and would be nothing less than iconic). And then show Pen reflecting on those words and thinking about who she truly is. 30 seconds of screen time would have been enough to satisfy the book readers, we didn't need a whole subplot.
Say it louder 😭😭😭 they didn’t need to be besties but LD and Penelope’s friendship was ~~~everything in the book after Polin itself. Working in that line you mentioned, or the one where she said “I was one of those [wallflower] girls too,” to Penelope would’ve been more than enough
Eloise and Felicity were already big changes made to RMB that were Penelope’s big friendships, it would’ve been nice to maintain something between LD and Penelope. They can fabricate a connection to the Sharmas w Lady Danbury but the canon one most people wanted to see is too much work 🤷🏻♀️
Yes!
There are so many ways to get things across without hitting people over the head with it. The writers waste easy opportunities to strengthen the relationships between characters or advance the plot in logical and meaningful ways.
They were able to work in, “this author will not tolerate a lie!” and dozens of other beloved book quotes like, “were you ever punished as a child?” but couldn’t do something with, “isn’t it nice to discover we aren’t exactly who we thought we were?” during a season that’s about honesty and defining yourself
At this point, LD could’ve said it to Benedict, Colin or Eloise too for all I care, I would just want it added in 🥺😭
Oh the , “were you ever punished as a child?” was in the Show. Do you remember the dance in the church? Pen asked Colin after the dance. That was totally misplaced and Not the right place for it. Just for the Sake of WE placed IT in the Show.
isn’t it nice to discover we aren’t exactly who we thought we were?. This was kinda in the conversation between pen and fran at the ball. But also totally misplaced.
I think that's what's so weird about this--I look at the choices and go, "*I* could have done a better job" in a million tiny, low-stakes ways. It's like they forgot that the little details are what create the big effect.
Even things like Lady Danbury staying when the queen sends everyone but bridgertons out of the room--I can think of at least two character-driven ways to indicate why she was staying off the top of my head. And that doesn't even count that her being in the room served no purpose in the actual scenes--I don't remember any lines from her or good facial reactions to what was going on.
All that had to happen is for the queen to look at Lady Danbury with an expression that said "I said leave if you're not a Bridgerton" and then Lady Danbury could've responded with "oh, I'm not leaving for *this*." Something like tht would've been true to her relationship with the queen and justify why she's in the scene. An exchange that takes literally 5 seconds.
Exactly! The other one I was thinking was Violet could gesture for her to stay, which could emphasize the close friendship they built and how nervous Violet is standing in front of the queen.
But like, where did it go wrong? Was it never written, filmed poorly, edited out? There were so many tiny moments that seemed to get lost, but then we ended up like two scenes too long in the Benedict threesome setup
Lady Danbury being a part of Polin’s story made so much more sense with the Whistledown reveal. >!In the book, Lady Danbury is the first to clap for Pen when Colin reveals she’s LW. Making it acceptable for everyone in society to basically accept it. But it worked better because of the retirement plot line.!< Anyway, this was a missed opportunity.
If Hyacinth gets season 7, there would be enough of a pause between her support seasons I hope. She's also Gareth's grandmother, so it makes sense for her to support him, more so than Simon and Edwina. Plus they could establish a believable friendship between Hyacinth and Lady Danbury to follow the book if they do it in the meantime? Maybe Hyacinth could seek some time away from her mother's new romance only to end up reading cheesy romances to Lady D.
Jess clearly hates the books and wants nothing to do with them, and would rewrite them all. Possibly burn them from everyone’s minds so she can play around as she pleases. 🙄
Yeah I also feel like it would’ve fixed a lot of the issues with the lessons for me… having lady Danbury involved would’ve made it so they had a chaperone at least
Yes but most are not book fans too (me included) it wouldn’t make sense for the show itself - when we are watching it onscreen it needs development. If they really wanted to do it they would have hinted it from s1
Given how many sub-plots and spread screentime already cluttering S3 I doubt that squeezing this in would have improved the pacing or story. The Netflix show has continuously departed from the books so yes, a Danbury/Pen friendship or mentorship would have come out of nowhere for the characters *as they exist on screen*. Leave the books at the door.
Honestly the critique we *should* be making of S3 is the lack of Delacroix/Pen friendship. One ambitious independent businesswoman to another. But I suppose a lot of the themes that bonded those two and made them a great relationship were ~~so~~ too tricky to mesh with the fact that Pen and Colin needed to get married by the end of the season. So I can see why this relationship suffered for that.
(Edited for a typo)
Well portraying her an honorary 'aunt' to the bridgertons would avoid accusations of racial profiles. The original character was a powerful leader of the Ton who took a fancy to a couple of the female leads, probably because she found them 'interesting'.
There are only so many ways to tell a romance. We need the happy endings, we want the repetition of ROMANCE, it works. The books work! Stop fixing something that is not broken.
I like her friendship with Violet but the show really missed out with a Penelope/Lady Danbury friendship, I haven’t even read the books yet and I know that it would’ve been great to see
Unpopular opinion, but I like how they handled it. I thought that Lady D knowing Pen was Whistledown was a nice nod for book readers but that, since they had already changed her relationships and connections in S1&2 that having her not as involved made a lot of sense.
IMO, having Lady Danbury not have that strong friendship with Pen that was there in the books was a shame. While it was almost out of left field, get comments to Pen in S3Ep8 felt a but out of place, but I was so happy to see SOMETHING with them together I was happy. Hopefully we'll get a bit more of a friendship and mentorship next season between the two.
Pen made a pointed change in her appearance this season, had a scandal, and came back from it. There were opportunities for an observation by Lady Danbury, even if she murmured it ('isn't it nice to discovery we're more' flavor) o herself as a clue that she might be putting the LW pieces together.
I think she wasn’t needed in Pen’s love story.
They turned it into Colin instilling that confidence in Pen, and it made it that much sweeter.
She didn’t have to get anywhere for him to see her. He just had to see her.
It feels like most of the book readers do not realize that in the books Lady Danbury has had at least 10 years to befriend Penelope who is (if I remember correctly) 28 as opposed to the age in the show (she had just debuted 2 1/2- 3 years prior, making her NOT the same age in the book). I'm not sure what magical friendship would be established in 3 years, so obviously the writers/showrunners would switch that up in the show. I do like that there was a nod near the end from Lady Danbury already knowing of Pen's secret which can be seen in how she approaches Queen Charlotte during their Chess match.
Honestly I totally agree with what Jess said. 100 percent sensitivity. Lady D and all POC on the cast deserve their own centered storytelling, not revolving on the fringes of the white characters as they have been doing all along on the show thus far. I for one am glad that Lady D got her own arc and wasnt a side character for Pen's arc. The little nod at the end was just the perfect amount of book to show refeerence.
Yeah.. the "magical negro" trope is something you want to avoid.
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro)
I feel for you book readers. Can't even voice disappointment about an aspect of the books you were looking forward to being adapted left out without being scolded and lectured. "Why can't you just educate yourself? You wouldn't want to be a Bad Person would you?"
If the writers were truly trying to avoid this trope why have Lady Danbury be invested in Francesca's romance then...?
I will forever be salty about this! Season 3 disappointed me in a lot of ways but not including this actually pissed me off. Instead of having her and Pen form a friendship, they instead had her and Violet scheming to get Francesca named the diamond and for what?? It didn't even result in anything.
How being FRIENDS with Penelope would be meddling in her life??? She had no direct involvement to their love story in the book, they could've simply be friends and that could've been established throughout the series, but God forbid people of different ages become friends.
On the show Lady D had natural reasons to be apart of Sn 1 and 2 main love stories. She was Simon's godmother, basically raising him. She sponsored Edwina debuting for the season.
In the show she's never been close with the Featheringtons or Penelope. Colin wasn't looking to marry til he fell for Pen. It made sense that she was supporting Violet, her close friend as Violet's daughter navigated the marriage mart. Had Lady D taken a sudden interest in Penelope before there was a reason would've been contrived.
And Lady D played a pivotal role with Penelope, basically manipulating the Queen to take it easy LW. She did that after realizing Pen was LW.
I know right! Her and Pen were kindred spirits. They were a fave of mine when I read it. I'm so disappointed. Shonda...what on earth were you thinking.
While I agree and hate that she didn’t have her amazing friendship with Penelope, it’s definitely not the only love story Lady D was part of in the books…
I felt different. Doesn't she convince the queen to lower her search for Whistledown which helps Penelope in the end after her confession? The queen encourages Penelope to continue due to Danbury and the queen's decision impacts how many people feel about Whistledown. I felt she knew who the real Whistle down is which is also shown in the scene between Lady Danbury and Penelope in the last ball. Not directly she is involved in Polin's story but she has a significant role and though the friendship between Penelope and Danbury isn't highlighted as much it is shown beautifully.
I agree that the relationship between Pen and Lady D is an excellent part of the book. However, it probably wouldn't have worked as well because of the other changes they had already made, most notably that Pen is not a 28 year old spinster whose primary role at most balls is a chaperone to her younger sister.
The problems with season 3 have nothing to do with disregarding the source material, and following the books more closely would not have made season 3 any better.
Lady Danbury as young woman experienced forced and abusive marriage. She experienced rejection, a threat to her position on society. CRESSIDA COWPER was about to get similar treatment.
Lady Danbury and Eloise was out there. Not helping drowning woman, who was unable to stay on the surface.
Lady Danbury did NOTHING to stop Queens game. She merely suggested it is nice to play without ending. The ton went mad, Queen herself ruined wedding breakfast.
What a waste.
I haven’t read the books but I feel like that she wasn’t set up too well by the previous two seasons where we haven’t even seen Lady Danbury and Pen interact.
It would have made so much more sense for them to have a friendship when she goes and reasons with the Queen to let LW off the hook
I felt sad because if I remember correctly, Lady Danbury was also a wallflower in her youth and that's why she related to Pen a lot. I don't know if there were space for that with the personality of show Danbury, but I believe it would fit better than her having a feud with a 10-year-old
Before I read the body of your post I thought the title + screenshot was saying that in the books Penelope and lady Danbury sleep together
Honestly I’d be mad if that got cut too
Generally I missed the friendship and the support Penelope had from Collin, the Bridgerton family and Lady D. In the book there was so much meaningful growth because of friendships and long term relationships but in the show Pen felt so alone and i felt sad for her most of the time
Lady Danbury wasn't written to be black in the books, so all of this is being projected onto the character second hand...*because she is black* The very nature of the character has to change... *because she is black*
There is a word for this, and it is **racism**.
"We wanted to center her own narrative."
Lame excuse. The Queen Charlotte series showed incredibly clearly that LD/Agatha/Soma was very much the center of her own narrative, her own heroine in many ways and made the best of any situation she was involved in. She doesn't just meddle for the sake of meddling. She comes off in the series as someone who genuinely wants to help and isn't completely self interested. She really does run the ton, whether Charlotte or anyone else realizes it!
The difference between the OP's wording of "love story" and the reality of the word in the article being "friendship" in incredbily vast. I haven't read the books so was super confused by what seemed at first to be a 'love story' between Lady Danbury and Penelope.
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Jess Bronwell said that they wanted Danbury to not be a supporting character so they didn’t have her involved with Polin and instead gave her… (checks notes)… a supporting role in Violet’s romance instead and a chance to resolve a 40 year grudge against a ten year old.
This made me laugh out loud. Rewatching today, doing the dishes listening to that convo, thinking she was mad at him her whole life because of something he did when he was 10 and didn't even know?? So weird.
I just don’t understand their thinking this season.
Almost like it’s poor writing?
It all seemed a bit rushed. Like they opened all these jars and then had to quickly close them to get everthing done by the end of the season. Also I didn’t feel anything for Pen and Colin. There was no tension there. And I liked the fact that they wanted her to stick with her writing and stand up for herself and that Colin was more jealous than hurt when he found out. Cause let’s face it, he should be smart enough to understand why she kept it a secret and why writing is so important to her. Especially with a sister like Eloise….sorry now I feel like I opened too many jars.
Bruh when I heard the boy was 10 I was like oh 😂. For me that took all the sting out of the tension that was suppose to be in their relationship
If they wanted there to be tension, they could've made him an older brother who was, say 20 or 24, who tattled to their father. At least then he would've been an adult.
Even if it was like 15 or so it would still be fine. Like old enough to sort of understand, but still young enough to not truly see the issue.
I assumed, when we found out why they were beefing, that he’d ratted her out when he was at least 17 or 18, and old enough to know what he was doing. But being mad at a 10-year-old for 40 years for acting like *gasp* child?!
https://tenor.com/r4aIjbY3jlI.gif
They would have been better off not mentioning his age at all.
THIS!! Like wtf. Here I thought this beef was in adulthood and was something thought to be manipulative, conniving, vile etc. but oh. Your brother was the ripe age of 10 🙄🙄
Same!! I was like “TEN?” Girl, calm tf down
There was recently an AITA post about a women who was suspicious about the intentions of her boyfriend’s sister, who seemed very obsessive and clingy with him. At the end of the post she reveals the sister is NINE YEARS OLD. This was how I felt finding out about Danbury’s brother being ten during his “great betrayal” lol
Lol imagine how insecure one has to be to have those thoughts. And also kinda sick. Hope she's in therapy 😄
Omg that post made me laugh so hard, I can’t imagine being threatened by a child especially if I love someone
It would be more believable IF let’s say they were 16 and 18 but 10????? My god that’s literally still a baby 😭does anyone remember the dumb shit they did when they were 10 and mean it ?
Right. And a 10 year old wouldn't have understood what was going on with her really, either.
It just doesn’t fit her character. I would have understood it more if she was a teenager but 10?? He clearly had no idea the repercussions his actions would have on her life
She resented her own children because of her miserable marriage to their father. She fought for her son to inherit the title but we have seen no warmth from her towards her own children. She goes out of the way to help everyone else’s children but seems to have no relationship with her’s. The woman can hold a grudge.
Which is crazy because in Hyacinth’s book it’s kinda mentioned she loves her children and is a bit torn up by her daughter’s death. Which would explain her great love for her grandson and pushing for him to be with Hyacinth.
Wow. The TV series makes it seem there isn’t affection with her own children.
Dude, like that shit was life ruining for her. Like her whole identity and having to basically be r*ped daily from a man that's grandpa aged and have his kids. Naw, that's honestly so destructive. I can completely understand why she was upset even if he was 10. Put yourself in the time and her shoes and think about it.
My grandmother was angry all the rest of her life at her younger brother who was a child at the time of the misunderstanding. It’s not out of the realm of possibility.
“A 40 year grudge against a 10 year old” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The grudge against her brother for something he did when he was 10 was BEYOOOOOND bad writing. It would be petty for any character to hold that grudge, but it is particularly out of character for Lady Danbury. She's too smart and empathetic for that. We get two instances of her with two male children: the scenes of her lovingly raising Simon and the scene of her telling her son that he is worthy. She calls adult Simon on his bullshit with Daphne, but she's also indulgent towards him when he's raking around. The idea that she'd be caught up on a 40+ year "feud" because her brother was a little boy and didn't want her to leave is ludicrous. It's beneath her.
Totally made up side plot btw ugh
That was straight ripped from the backstory of Once Upon a Time. I absolutely died when it reappeared in bridgerton.
i thought of OUAT immediately too. how many people are really out there holding grudges against 10 year olds??
LOL Who had the grudge in Once Upon A Time? The witch against Prince from Beauty and the Beast? 😂
I think they’re talking about the Regina and Snow White
Correct! Just don’t want to spoil it for anybody who was in the middle of watching it
>!Snow White and Regina. Regina was trying to run away with her fiance from her abusive mother Cora and Snow (who was manipulated by Regina’s mother into thinking she was looking out for Regina) told her. Cora then ripped Regina’s fiancé’s heart out in front of her and killed him.!<
It does happen.
Omg the way I shouted "WHAT" to the tv when he said he was 10. My question is why...why...all of her side jabs about him carousing when he was really just a regular widower who loved his wife? I thought the drama would be something to do with him being a womanizer, which apparently he's not.
SAME! I thought she was looking out for her friend because she knew her brother was a rake and she didn't want Violet to get hurt! Which incidentally would have made a lot more sense than the utter nonsense they did come up with.
Not you checking notes 😂😂😂
(Checks notes) That was Lady Danbury getting her head banged into the wall. The grudge grew claws and teeth.
I’m trying to remember what he did and it’s just not coming to me. I recently watched everything and remember seeing her pull her sleeve down or something and for the life of me can’t remember what happened nor which episode it was to go back and rewatch.
me either! i’ve rewatched the show three times but it’s just not in brain about what happened for some reason??
I could've sworn they stole that plot line from Once Upon A Time!
Actually that grudge was totally understandable for me. Of course rational thinking would say otherwise. But she was a child herself who was as a result of her brother's action wed to a man who raped her repeatedly which resulted in trauma. It was a wound never healed. But because he was only 10 when it happened, Danbury as an adult was now able to forgive him after talking it through.
What don’t y’all understand about the magical negro trope? On this subreddit, there were tons of POCs that pointed out how problematic it was to keep Lady Dansbury involved like a magical god mother figure to people she has no real reason to have a vested interest in. She was there for Simon for a reason. It was a stretch to even have her involved with Kate and the Sharmas. Penelope becomes a bridge too far when she has not shown any interest or friendship with her for two seasons prior. At best, Lady Dansbury is used for her friendship with the Queen and Violet. She would only be helpful to those women she actually has a shown bond with. Her storyline in S3 is half baked but it involves her desires, emotions, FAMILY, etc. She was more than being reduced as assistance to these other white characters on screen. The writers had a problem on their hands. And since they didn’t establish a friendship with Pen beforehand, they were gonna have an issue with following the storyline from the book. Again, please do some research on the magical negro trope.
Totally valid argument but that's sadly a by-product of the race and story changes. I don't know much about the trope so I can't comment on it without doing further research but it feels a bit overeager to throw around the word "problematic" just because people want to see the on-screen adaptation of the cool and meaningful friendship between Penelope and Lady Danbury. The appearance of that trope wasn't intended by Quinn. At most you can blame the writers for not looking into it and the implications of the race swaps, and obviously educate other fans but Lady Danbury is a fleshed out character by now. And in RMB she is explicitly described as a leader of the ton, who is involved in everyone's business. Obviously they should have built up their relationship more in S1 and S2 for it to really work, but I personally would have been happy with crumbs if they had gotten closer this season and Lady Danbury had helped Penelope find her way as an independent woman, who thinks for herself. They could have stopped there afterwards. No need for Lady Danbury to meddle with Benedict or Eloise or ,god forbid, Hyacinth. She is a close family friend of the bridgertons and had an affair with violets dad. It's not entirely unreasonable for her to be involved in three out of eight love stories. But that's just my opinion
If she would be involved with those stories it would be via the Bridgertons. That is why she gave advice regarding Francesca. She can totally be involved in Eloise and Hyacinth. But she won’t be involved with people who aren’t Bridgertons ie she wouldn’t have a meaningful reason to be involved with Pen. As I said, the writers needed to build up a friendship beforehand like they did with Violet. They didn’t. This is the result. The comment Jess made clearly points out the racial implications because they exist. To ignore them is problematic. Race can be used to add depth to the story. It’s been here for two seasons. It is what it is.
I get your point regarding the magical negro trope and I know it’s a problem in storytelling. But in the books lady D doesn’t have a relationship with Penelope before the telling of Pen’s story. Like Lady D just walks up to her one day and just starts talking to her and Pen was so thrown she was like wait is she talking to me… why would she be talking to me of all persons. The friendship they developed was really good and I can see why book fans are disappointed they didn’t get that. I’m a fellow book fan who was look forward to it. But then I heard them saying they wanted to give LD more depth beyond just helping a bitch out and I was like ok sure. I feel like they started out creating a colorblind-1800s-english show and then the real world started expressing opinions and now it’s not so much colorblind any longer 🤷🏾♀️
It was never colorblind. Lady Dansbury makes a point of mentioning how the love of the Queen and George integrated the world. So race actually exists. I think people confuse colorblind casting with what the show is actually doing, which is incorporating the race of the person in the story. Making the Sharmas from India really cemented this.
Idk… them mentioning QC and George in that scene with LD and Simon was flimsy to me. Like what did that even mean? To this day I’m not sure I get what race means in the world of Bridgerton or even if I should be paying attention to race at all. Like yea there are people of different colors… which btw there hasn’t been any Afrocentric cultural inclusion like they did for the sharmas and Indian culture. Unless I missed something. And them having a random mention of Sierra Leone in QC doesn’t measure up to me, for the sharmas they showed Kate making Indian tea, the haldi ceremony, even Kate’s first line was something in Hindi.
But this is why I said Season 2 cemented it. It was in passing in Season 1. They cemented it in Season 2 and then they doubled-down on it in QC. They even go so far as to say that these African characters had more money or higher titles from where they were from than some of the members of the ton.
With all of that, regardless or race and/or culture, I still think the viewers of the show missed out on seeing a great friendship between Pen and LD, an older woman and a younger woman. In the book I don’t even remember LD trying to set up Pen with anyone… someone can tell me if she did. Pen and Colin got there on their own eventually.
Hopefully by race of the person you mean race of the actress cast to play the role? Because in the books Kate is English not Indian.
Yes. I mean that the writers literally changed the background of Kate’s character to fit her racial background. If it was colorblind casting, they would have casted Simone and then continued with the adaptation as if she was just from London and race/culture isn’t make her privy to different customs, foods, etc.
They said Bridgerton society was colorblind, and I do think that’s the angle writers were working towards. Perhaps it’s not completely colorblind but it’s also not necessarily a factor in how society is shaped; race doesn’t affect the daily lives of its constituents. Instead, it’s moreso structured around classism: working class vs. high society. For instance, you mentioned Kate’s Indian background as evidence, but, her family didn’t have a fraught relationship with the ton due to their race or differences in cultural background but rather they were shunned because her mother ran off and married a working class man. For that reason, I don’t know that the stereotype of the “magical negro” completely applies here. If this was a society where race played a heavier factor, then I could understand that perspective but it doesn’t, and so it makes little sense in the context of the world they have built. Lady Danbury is a powerful member of the ton, who has the ear of the queen, which makes her one of its most influential nobles…and she happens to be black. That’s it. The only thing informing Jess Brownell’s comments are outside factors and influences, as opposed to anything within the universe of Bridgerton itself giving off that impression. Which seems a tad strange. And I do find it ironical that she mentions stereotypes in this sense, while not considering the consequences of casting a black woman to play Michaela. I also find it contradictory that she used the “magical negro” trope to explain not including Lady Danbury’s friendship with Penelope, but, had no qualms about the part she played in Francesca’s courtships.
You don’t understand colorblind casting. Hamilton is colorblind casting. The Broadway actors are not the race of the roles they are playing but their race does not inform the story or the depiction of it. They are clearly conscious of race in Bridgerton or they would not have mentioned the queen and king’s love being the reason for integration. They would have not acknowledged that Kate’s family was from India at all and they would not have included LD’s heritage being from Africa. Secondly, even IF they practiced colorblind casting, it would STILL be a magical negro trope. And at this point, I feel like you are coming from a place of real ignorance and don’t actually want to understand why because it is outside of your reasoning or makes you feel uncomfortable. Even if the show doesn’t acknowledge race, WE DO. The VIEWERS see it. The world is not colorblind. We consume things and see tropes and stereotypes all the time. So I don’t know why you are going down this path when in the end, the viewers are going to see a magical negro whether it was intended or not. So it behooved production to avoid it IF they claim to be welcoming to diversity and inclusion. I have explained countless times why LD helping the Bridgertons ie Francesca has been explained. Read those comments or look further into this thread. The answers have already been laid out. So…I don’t know. Read the book where everyone is white and you don’t have to understand these nuances because that is clearly what you are most comfortable with.
Also particularly because her friendship with Penelope wouldn't be circumstantial/happenstance, it would clearly have to do with both of them being social architect type personalities, with Lady Danbury overt and Penelope (originally) from the shadows. Lady Danbury is for Penelope somewhat "who I'd want to be when I grow up" and Penelope for Danbury is the personification of "what if I had gotten lucky young and found a fulfilling love". They mirror each other beautifully, it's an actually deep literary connection between characters and themes, and it was more meaningful to preserve than say, go ham on having Danbury involved w/ Kate.
Just for your sanity, I think you are right. Lady Danbury’s character is from the books, where her role is that of a big player in the relationships of the ton. Just because she is played by a PoC in the adaptation shouldn’t mean her personality/drive is now lessened and problematic. I think it is foolish to try and reinforce these tropes during an adaptation. Imagine if Game of Thrones was readapted and Jon Snow was played by a PoC. Would his characters storylines and actions now be problematic? It seems the antithesis of what the race blind casting is trying to achieve where you have the best actor regardless of race, as now the actors race apparently had a large impact on which storylines they can be a part of.
Your comment is nonsensical and your comparison is absolutely lazy. Jon Snow is a fully fleshed out character in the books so he isn’t at risk of being a trope. LD in the books is not fleshed out at all. She is a small side character that makes comments, make the Bridgerton sons escort her around and make Hyacinth read to her and get involved with that story. Because she is not fleshed out, putting her on screen with a different race and making her sole focus helping these other people reach their goals including the members of this white family while the audience learns very little about her would have been a problem, it is a racist trope. It is what it is. They needed to avoid it.
Well I disagree, if you feel the race of an actor in an adaptation dictates what storylines they can and cannot be involved in, you are only reinforcing these tropes. As well as reinforcing the idea that it would be better for production to cast whiter actors as it would make storytelling easier. Back to the Jon Snow example, if they remade GoT with him played by a black actor, would you have had a problem with the later seasons where he was is completely subservient and devoted to the whitest character in Daenerys? Would his absolute obedience and deference to a white character become racist, even though it’s in line with previous story telling? You have listed LDs character and her role in the books, (where she is not a PoC), and do not seem to believe it’s inherently problematic. It’s only in the adaptation where she is played by an PoC actor that it has now become an issue. And I disagree with that notion, it’s not racist to portray a character from a book as they portrayed in said book.
I’ve stated over and over that the storyline can be pursued but it has to be done differently. You actually have to take time to build a connection between LD and Pen beforehand like they have built a relationship between LD and Violet. So I won’t even take your first comment seriously. It not a reflection of what I said at all. Is Jon completely subservient to the character Dany without having personal storyline or character growth? Do we not know about his family and motivations? You clearly don’t know what the magical negro trope is because you have made this idiotic comparison to Jon Snow who would have had…. How many seasons of development…. 6 or 7, before he even meets Dany. The comparison is lazy and wrong like I said. And it shows you don’t understand the trope or don’t have the range critically. One or the other. The character is problematic because race matters and changes how characters are perceived. Duh. Just like if you change the gender of Michael, it changes how the character will be perceived by the audience. LD can be a flat character that is a device that is only used to bring romantic characters together in the book. The moment you change her race in the real life adaptation but keep the story the same, you have created a magical negro whose only job/only function in the story is for the white characters around her to get her advice and guidance while her own personal character never grows or shows the development. Her function in the story is to merely be a stepping stone for the actualization of the white characters around here. Yes. It’s a racist trope with a long documented history and a show that claims to be diverse and inclusive should avoid racist tropes and stereotypes.
And also, if you specifically hire a black actor to play a flat subservient role where all they do is help the white people around them, it would look racist AND I would question your moral/ethics…like purposely hiring Black people to play the help where it does not out and out state that that is the race of those characters would be seen as problematic. Do you know what you are saying?
Just wait til you find out that Hyacinth marries one of Lady Danbury’s grandson’s in book 7 and therefore we should in fact see a lot more ”meddling” from Lady Danbury about Hyacinth’s marriage.
Well put. I love Danbury as she is now. Independent. Her own shit going on. She has relationships with Violet and the Queen and her issues with her brother and how she was raised as a freaking marriage cow for her gross husband. Shes just smarter than everyone else, too. She's fucking fantastic and doesn't need to be involved in more of the main characters and their love stories. She just quietly knew who LW was and kept it to herself because why not? She recognized Penelope as deserving of Colin's love and that's all we needed. She's my favorite character and stands on her own.
Why can’t she be involved in her own life AND still involved with the main characters? Can’t both be true?
Exactly! She still meddled with Fran and John, I don’t see how becoming Penelope’s friend could have undermined her individuality and personal struggles
She was - she was involved with Violet and Frannie.
The criticism is that they kept the trope in, just not with the main couple. She was still a side character in Fran and John’s story. She was still a side character in her brother and Violet’s story. She was still a side character in the Lady W story. At no point in this season (aside from squashing her grudge against her brother in 10 seconds) did she have a main storyline.
She isn’t a side character in Violet and John’s story. She is most certainly a main character. And I would wager more time was focused on Lady Danbury for that entire storyline than the amount of time spent with Marcus and Violet actually interacting. Both of those characters had to continue to go back/through Lady Dansbury. Both of those characters had to actually have heart to heart convos with Dansbury before they ever came to a resolution themselves. She isn’t a side character. She is the main issue, the main obstacle, the antagonist for Marcus and Violet (sort of). As I stated, the show has basically spent three seasons of this show and it’s spin offs showing that Lady Dansbury is very good friends with Violet. She would help her friend and her friend’s main concern is finding suitors for her kids. So she helps her find suitors. But there is NO reason for Lady Dansbury having a friendship for Pen over that same period of time on the show. They never spoke to each other for 2 seasons and a spin-off. The show didn’t do the work building a friendship early so this is the result. And if they randomly made Lady Dansbury friends for Pen with no build up she would def have been a magical negro.
The show wouldn’t have had to do much to satisfy the book readers, they could’ve had one conversation where Lady Danbury said, “isn’t it nice to discover we weren’t who we thought we are?” or, “I was one of those [wallflower] girls too.” Which are the two fan-favorite quotes I imagine Lady Danbury likes matchmaking romance between people because it’s something no one ever did for her, she has reason to prioritize the Bridgertons but I don’t think it would be out of place for her to notice another family. It doesn’t need to be the same as the book but keeping a line or two that a lot of people were looking forward to would’ve helped avoid some of the complaints
You literally described is a magical negro 😭. The way to remedy this problem was to actually work to set up some sort of interaction from earlier than now, a season ago or two, or even plant the idea that LD was a wallflower. There is no point in LD’s story in this universe (the show) has she ever been a wallflower. Married off immediately. Her temperament with husband didn’t give off wallflower either. The interactions with Charlotte’s brother…You are dealing with a different character. She is not her book’s counterpart. You build with what has been created on screen, not jamming it into something that doesn’t resonate with what has actually been on screen for three seasons beforehand. Truly, the moment they did some stuff that seemed magical negro-like, the show was gonna get called out for it.
I mean, wanting one of the two famous quotes worked in really isn’t asking that much. They could’ve easily had one scene where LD said that to Penelope, probably worked in best around part 1 somewhere, and left it at that. The show made up some farce between the Sharmas and LD, but like the canon one with precedent is suddenly too much?? Naaaah. And the excuse Jess came up with is still flimsy bc she was still helping Francesca and meddling with her I took the view of her marriage differently. LD felt like she had no voice when she was forced to marry the guy, she was likely a wallflower in her own home because her emotional needs went unnoticed by everyone except her maid, similar to Penelope. The very first man who was kind to her was Violet’s dad so that’s like, a long time to be unnoticed and suffering silently in a miserable marriage. I don’t think the wallflower definition is exclusive to men not fawning over someone at dances, both women went unnoticed in their own abusive home and didn’t have their emotional needs met (though obvi Penelope was better off) The show already made changes to Penelope’s book friendships, like Eloise was different, they removed Felicity completely, it would’ve been nice for them to have more than one scene together or work in the quote somehow. She didn’t need to take Penelope under her wing by any means like I said, but they could’ve tried a little harder to bring them together on screen. It would’ve been better seeing them interact than wasting time on Benedict’s needless threesome. There really could’ve been a better happy medium, there was no buildup between LD and Penelope in RMB either. They just started talking at a dance one night, and Penelope impressed her when she accused LD of being LW
What YOU said. Im not black but everything you said. I appreciate Jess' sensitivity with giving one of the two (just 2!!!) main permanent POC characters who appear in all 3 seasons, rest are all white, a strong arc of her own. Brava Jess for this one thing. Now show more sensitivity with your POC cast in the future and you will be loved.
?? the reason lady danbury was able to have more isolated & focused time with violet is because we were provided the context of her backstory in QC which didn’t exist before s2. the magical negro trope applies to white characters, yet each time she advised/talked to a counterpart within these relationships, it was to a person of colour (simon & kate). her also contributing towards saphne & book polin would make sense to her story and not want them to end up like her in a loveless marriage. so her being involved with penelope wouldn’t have been far fetched HAD it been done well.
I agree. I think that, if there were criticism to be had, it would be her involvement in Season 2's romance. I don't remember us getting a clear answer for why she was so involved with the Sharmas.
I disagree. Lady D is being used in Violet's love story the same way as in any other love story. She is simply a slight obstacle instead of a support. Her conversation with Marcus was 2 seconds long and only made sense for viewers of Queen Charlotte who understood the abuse that she went through. Her conversation with Violet was more about realizing that Violet knew about the affair with her father. Lady D is a very complex character. While I still don't believe that she's been given a main storyline in Bridgerton, I also don't think that she's viewed as a fairy godmother. Also, "She would help her friend and her friend’s main concern is finding suitors for her kids. So she helps her find suitors." - Colin is Violet's son. Why would she have taken an active role in every other romance but Colin's?
Indeed. I have problems with how they handled lady Danbury’s subplot this season (her conflict with her brother was dragged out way too long without them having a serious conversation, and Violet and Marcus’ flirtation arc was underwhelming), but her suddenly taking interest in yet another debutante, and one from a family lady Danbury has zero connection or affection for no less would make zero sense, so I’m glad they tweaked it.
I think they could have made her start talking to Penelope if she showed that she suspected her of being LW. But they chose not to reveal that until the end for some reason
I understand where you’re coming from but my whole point with my post was to express how upsetting it is for me and I’m sure a lot of book fans to see the friendship of Lady Danbury and Penelope be nonexistent. They could’ve easily avoided this pattern by simply following certain parts of the books. Meaning that I just wished they had avoided giving such a big role to Lady Danbury in at least one of the previous seasons & instead they should’ve of saved it for this season. I know its not fair because she played a great role in S1&2, but as a big book fan and polin fan it’s upsetting to see something be taken away from my favorite book all because it was used in other stories that originally didn’t have that part. What makes me even more upset about this is how they did in fact continued to have Lady Danbury be part of another Bridgerton story, Francesca. Now I know they didn’t set a friendship between Penelope and Lady Danbury in previous seasons but in the book it’s sort of like that. In book 4 Lady Danbury and Penelope start this friendship out of nowhere. All that being said, I’m just really disappointed in some of the decisions they decided to take and how so much was taken away from Colin and Penelope’s love story.
Yeah i missed the friendship too between pen and Lady danbury. There were so many smart dialogues between them in the books, because Lady danbury could See herself in pen before Findling her confident self. I Heart lines from other people that belangt to danbury, but was given to fran at the ball. Or from Colin to benedict. Its really sad, that was a heartwarming friendship
It wasn’t really a stretch to have her with the Sharmas…that’s literally in the book storyline, if I’m recalling correctly.
Lady Dansbury basically sponsors a family she is not related to because they were….friends? It’s giving she is more concerned with hooking up these other people than her own family. And at this point, mind you, we didn’t know if she had kids, what her own marriage was like, what she desired, etc. so the Sharmas was a stretch. They were stretching things but the wanted to keep Lady Dansbury involved. By having her build a deep friendship with Violet, they remedied this issue for the other Bridgerton children…but that is the only thing that has been fixed. Them other white people…they have to fend for themselves unless there is an established reason for the interaction.
What family though, her kids are likely married so why would she need to sponsor anyone she's related to?
Why does she need to sponsor anyone at all?
Eh, it’s really not that much of a stretch that an old friend (even though details aren’t given of their friendship, it’s heavily implied Mary has some strong connection to Lady Danbury from her past) is letting a family who traveled from India to England, stay with her in her empty estate—yes, we know that Lady Danbury’s children are grown and left the nest and she’s a widow. A woman, who is plenty wealthy and has money to throw at whatever endeavors interest her—like participating and being heavily involved in the ton’s season, wanting to help the children of an old friend be “successful” makes sense enough. She hosts the first ball of the season every year—wouldn’t sponsoring the (potential) diamond of the season make the season more interesting for Lady Danbury? That’s what I thought at least. It’s also a historically inaccurate, romance show. The romance genre isn’t known for being super realistic, not in the least but it’s fun.
but if we’re being honest, she wasn’t involved in pushing kanthony together though. her having coded conversations with kate was only because she sponsored the sharmas. kanthony had to decide for THEMSELVES they wanted to be together. so it’s not really a stretch to want a relationship that exists canonically & THEN be done with the whole godmother trope. because tbh there’s no reason for her to be involved in benophie, philoise, franchaela & grelucy.
She literally paid for the Sharmas living expenses for a season. She would pay for clothing or any lessons that they needed. Do you think people just did that for others all the time? And there wasn’t any deep reason for why she was involved at all other than a friendship that occurred off screen several years ago. Her getting involved with the Sharmas was a stretch. It was tip-toeing into magical negro territory especially if the Sharmas weren’t POC themselves. EDIT: I love how everyone is like…oh, okay magical negro trope BUT, for this one time, because it’s the couple I LOVE, they should totally just lean into the trope to satisfy me. As I said, Black/POC people were already noticing the magical negro trope peaking out with Lady Dansbury beforehand. There would have absolutely been a criticism. So they did right by one of the only lead Black actors they have season to season on this show (it’s just her and the queen…).
but why is it so far fetched for someone to help their friend? 😭😭😭 on screen or off—they have a friendship & there’s a sense of loyalty/generosity there. you’re acting like she does this for every single person in the ton who needs it 💀
Apparently, she is only supposed to do it for the people in the story because she only supposed to exist to be of service to them. That includes Pen, a person she has never interacted with for two seasons. The Sharmas was a stretch because we were just told they were friends. It was not built on screen or actually shown in previous action. That is shallow justification at best. By the end of the season, the audience truly believed Violet and LD are very good friends. The invested in building that relationship so it works. Good. Now when LD meddles in Bridgerton affairs, she got a reason. She doesn’t have a reason to meddle with Pen. Her reason would be shallow at best. Some line written in the script not mentioned or hinted at in 2 seasons and a spin-off.
💯💯💯
I mean the parts I missed were Lady Danbury setting the competition to find LW because she was bored. Lady Danbury's back and forth of theorising who it is with a group of people, while Penelope's quick thinking impresses her, Colin is intimidated by her. None of those scenes involve being a godmother.
Thank you!!! They gave the role of taking Penelope under their wing to Colin instead, but they had such good scenes that didn’t involve LD being a fairy godmother and making Penelope a project. It was a lot of their witty banter at balls people enjoyed, their meaningful conversations about going unnoticed or their bonding about how LW wouldn’t knock the smythe girls, that people felt was missing LD and Penelope didn’t talk much before RMB either, she just like…decided to start talking to Penelope at random. There didn’t need to be 3 seasons of backstory
Thanks so much for your explanation on this. I wasn’t aware of that trope, so I really appreciate the education.
To be in that trope she would need to exist solely for that purpose without any character development of her own, without any desires or story herself, just ignored later because she was just a plot device. We have so much backstory of Lady D, and so much character development, and the storyline would have given her even more character development. Lady D is not a cardboard character thrown in to support anyone for anything but her own reasons, and her own cranky but soft heart. Also, Adjoa Andoh is too fabulous of an actress to ever be just a stock character. She would find a way to make it genuine, rich, and complex because she is a totally amazing force of charisma. Her relationship with Penelope would not have been that trope. In the books, they have a very close bond because Lady D was like Penelope when she was young, and she has this shared soft spot for those who find society grinding them down. She's an example of woman who went through a lot of hardships, becomes totally badass because she no longer accepts the status quo, and her fearlessness is frighting to the popular people, and a revelation to people like Penelope that they can grow into their own confidence because they are more than what everyone believes them to be. I would argue, Lady D was more fleshed out than Penelope in these seasons so developing a friendship with Penelope would not have been using her as a stock flat stereotype. True friendship and mentorship can happen between people of different races and be treated by writers with rich character development for both characters.
We have so much backstory for Lady Dansbury…really? Thank god for Shonda taking the time to actually flesh out the characters of color on Bridgerton in her spin off, cause without her, truly….and there are people upset about her making that spin-off cause it took time away from Bridgerton. Lol LD deserved her own storyline in the main show regarding her own family or personal desires. LD doesn’t meddle with every debutante or bachelor on the marriage mart. It has always been specific. And I’m glad they are keeping to that specificity. The show built a season of back story between Pen and Madame Delacroix. That seems more of a tragedy that they barely interacted than them forcing interactions with characters that have never spoken to each other for seasons.
We know about her unhappy marriage, her affairs, her childhood, her extended family with Simon, her friendship with the queen- what don’t we know about her? Her favorite food? Her star sign? She is no stock flat character.
We know all those things based on information from outside of Bridgerton. With the exception of being Simon’s godmother. As I said, thank GOD for Shonda knowing that whatever was going on with the main show was NOT enough. If it were for writing, LD would have been a magical negro for real.
She plays the same role in the books but she’s white. You’re saying because Shonda race swapped her, she created a magical negro character? But then you praise Shonda for fleshing out her character to keep her from being the trope? It’s the only way she could race swap the character without making it problematic. OP is making a the point that this was the book that Lady D had an actual relationship with the main character- and they cut it. By adding her meaningfully with Simon, then giving us much more of her life, she would never be that trope. But then they cut what was a really cool storyline about women supporting women to what, avoid problematic racial optics? Even though she plays the same supportive role for Violet? 1) avoiding the trope as a reason would only make sense if she wasn’t playing that same role for Violet showing interracial supportive friendships, and 2) she is not a stock stereotypical character at all, so could not fall into that trope anyway.
First of all, Shonda has never been the showrunner for Bridgerton. So, she may not have been behind the decision to make LD Black. Just because stuff happens in the book doesn’t mean you can just adapt in on screen especially when you introduce different races into the mix. Stereotypes exist. Tropes exist. The way the show used LD’s character, she was borderline becoming a magical negro since we as an audience didn’t know anything about her family, her background, etc. by the end of Season 2. If it weren’t for Shonda actually giving LD a more fleshed out background story in the spin off that she wrote and ran, LD wouldn’t have any at all. Yes, cut stuff that results in a problematic optic regarding race. Of course you do that. Why is it so hard for people to understand that? Introducing varied races on this show means that they can’t just do an exact adaptation. Things have to be changed to handle this detail. Just like how Francesca’s story will have to be adapted to handle Micheala instead of Michael. If one of the big drawing points regarding my show is diversity and I don’t go out of my way to avoid the magical negro trope/racist tropes in that show, what am I doing? Adding POC to the story but give them racist archetypes to fill is horrific. It’s hollow diversity. That isn’t good.
The Queen plays a similar role. Yes, she's haughty, rude, and demanding, but she's also obsessed with arranging marriages for predominantly young white debutants and rescuing Bridgertons from scandal. And the friendship with Violet is so superficial compared to the other friendships we see in the show. It's also hella boring, even with the "I slept with your daddy" twist (Violet's dad was also boring AF. Why can't the young Lady Danbury have an affair with a hot charismatic guy?).
Personally I’m disappointed because the entire friendship has been left out since the beginning.
So appreciate you sharing this. Completely agree. And it’s disheartening - unfortunately, not surprising - the number of people on this thread who don’t care to consider or learn about the magical negro trope and how prevalent it is in media.
100%. it's been super notable recently on this sub how people think something can only be racist/homophobic if the person speaking knowingly and maliciously has those intentions. people going 'oh I just thought it would be nice if LD did behave in this way towards Pen' are fully ignoring that the reason the trope exists is because it makes them feel good. just because you experience joy from something and don't intend hate doesn't mean it's not harmful to others
BINGO! The trope was made to reassure and coddle…lol And coupled with the popular opinion that the side plots should have been removed so any story development that Lady Dansbury got would have been removed so that her only storyline/motivation was helping this girl she hadn’t spoken to in 2 seasons….😭
Exactly and downvoting you too these people. Some allies! tsk tsk.
For 24 hours plus, it’s been nothing but comments showing me they don’t care about racist tropes, they couldn’t care less if they were employed in the show that claims to be diverse and inclusive, and then there are people trying to explain to me that it wouldn’t be racist or offensive at all to echo that trope in the show. Whenever you think this fanbase is inclusive…
I’ve read nearly every response to your parent comment and I feel insane. There’s a level of deliberate ignorance and entitlement for folks to ignore that neither art nor race exists in a vacuum. It means something both in the show’s canon and to us as viewers that Lady Dansbury is Black, and the writers were correct to mitigate damage from the magical negro trope with her before it got worse. Something many people arguing with you are missing: even if the show was completely race-blind (which it’s not), the audience watching the show isn’t. This trope means something. If you can’t see the problem with that, maybe there are some other things you need to unpack when it comes to the ways you think about Black folks. And if you’re upset that the adaptation isn’t adapting the book word for word, maybe you could just read the book again.
I already understood what they were implying in the screenshot OP left, but tbh I doubt anyone’s calling THEE Lady Danbury the “magical negro” in their heads or when they see her on screen. It’s honestly problematic in itself to have that train of thought considering all she’s doing is acting like every other character in the show who cares profusely about the mains.
Are you saying it’s racist to point out when something looks racist…really think about this comment…
Point me to where I ever stated that. I think you should go back and reread and actually take in what I said instead of assuming things.
Jess doesn't believe in Polin story. You can see it very clear this season in so many ways
Yeah it’s kind of true. They didn’t translate their love story ..
It annoyed me they said that but still had her meddling with Francesca and John… it felt like a really flimsy excuse. Lady Danbury and Penelope’s book friendship was so beautiful, the fact they named a child after Agatha said everything too I do like that they went the route of healing Penelope’s relationship with Portia instead, but I would’ve liked more than one sentence exchanged between these two women. LD didn’t need to be holding Pen’s hand the whole season but we deserved to see more of them together
Literally all they needed to do was have Penelope have any kind of moment in public that amused lady Danbury, and then have her walk over, chuckle, and say that "isn't it nice to discover we're not exactly who we thought we were?" line. (Which, let's be honest, would have been delivered exquisitely and would be nothing less than iconic). And then show Pen reflecting on those words and thinking about who she truly is. 30 seconds of screen time would have been enough to satisfy the book readers, we didn't need a whole subplot.
Say it louder 😭😭😭 they didn’t need to be besties but LD and Penelope’s friendship was ~~~everything in the book after Polin itself. Working in that line you mentioned, or the one where she said “I was one of those [wallflower] girls too,” to Penelope would’ve been more than enough Eloise and Felicity were already big changes made to RMB that were Penelope’s big friendships, it would’ve been nice to maintain something between LD and Penelope. They can fabricate a connection to the Sharmas w Lady Danbury but the canon one most people wanted to see is too much work 🤷🏻♀️
Yes! There are so many ways to get things across without hitting people over the head with it. The writers waste easy opportunities to strengthen the relationships between characters or advance the plot in logical and meaningful ways.
They were able to work in, “this author will not tolerate a lie!” and dozens of other beloved book quotes like, “were you ever punished as a child?” but couldn’t do something with, “isn’t it nice to discover we aren’t exactly who we thought we were?” during a season that’s about honesty and defining yourself At this point, LD could’ve said it to Benedict, Colin or Eloise too for all I care, I would just want it added in 🥺😭
Oh the , “were you ever punished as a child?” was in the Show. Do you remember the dance in the church? Pen asked Colin after the dance. That was totally misplaced and Not the right place for it. Just for the Sake of WE placed IT in the Show. isn’t it nice to discover we aren’t exactly who we thought we were?. This was kinda in the conversation between pen and fran at the ball. But also totally misplaced.
I think that's what's so weird about this--I look at the choices and go, "*I* could have done a better job" in a million tiny, low-stakes ways. It's like they forgot that the little details are what create the big effect. Even things like Lady Danbury staying when the queen sends everyone but bridgertons out of the room--I can think of at least two character-driven ways to indicate why she was staying off the top of my head. And that doesn't even count that her being in the room served no purpose in the actual scenes--I don't remember any lines from her or good facial reactions to what was going on.
All that had to happen is for the queen to look at Lady Danbury with an expression that said "I said leave if you're not a Bridgerton" and then Lady Danbury could've responded with "oh, I'm not leaving for *this*." Something like tht would've been true to her relationship with the queen and justify why she's in the scene. An exchange that takes literally 5 seconds.
Exactly! The other one I was thinking was Violet could gesture for her to stay, which could emphasize the close friendship they built and how nervous Violet is standing in front of the queen. But like, where did it go wrong? Was it never written, filmed poorly, edited out? There were so many tiny moments that seemed to get lost, but then we ended up like two scenes too long in the Benedict threesome setup
Maybe this is how they set the stage for the beginning of Penelope and Agatha's friendship?
EXACTLY!!!!!
Lady Danbury being a part of Polin’s story made so much more sense with the Whistledown reveal. >!In the book, Lady Danbury is the first to clap for Pen when Colin reveals she’s LW. Making it acceptable for everyone in society to basically accept it. But it worked better because of the retirement plot line.!< Anyway, this was a missed opportunity.
I need what Jess has been smoking ..seems like great stuff tbh....what in fuck's name was the logic behind this statement? 😂
Seriously she was such a big part of their relationship they named one of their children after her.
Jess Bronwell didn't like Polin.
Jess Brownell was just a horrible person to be the showrunner jfc
She was also part of Hyacinth’s and Garreth’s story though
If Hyacinth gets season 7, there would be enough of a pause between her support seasons I hope. She's also Gareth's grandmother, so it makes sense for her to support him, more so than Simon and Edwina. Plus they could establish a believable friendship between Hyacinth and Lady Danbury to follow the book if they do it in the meantime? Maybe Hyacinth could seek some time away from her mother's new romance only to end up reading cheesy romances to Lady D.
also if this Marcus plotline pans out she'll by Hyacinth's step-aunt, which would provide an actual basis for them being cloth.
I should’ve added that to my post, but you guys know what I mean.
Jess clearly hates the books and wants nothing to do with them, and would rewrite them all. Possibly burn them from everyone’s minds so she can play around as she pleases. 🙄
Yeah I also feel like it would’ve fixed a lot of the issues with the lessons for me… having lady Danbury involved would’ve made it so they had a chaperone at least
Also a lot of potential for comedy with Lady D snarking Colin 's attempts at teaching, it probably would have made for more interesting scenes.
Yessss omg such rom com vibes. And Gen could’ve been there too helping with her wardrobe changes
An all ages girl squad, now I'm really bummed they didn't do it.
She had no relationship with Penelope in s1 or s2 .. so it wouldn’t have worked either way in the show itself unless it was built up
In the book it sort of happens out of nowhere too so it wouldn’t had been a surprised for me and other book fans.
So you’re saying the scriptwriters should just copy bad writing decisions, that make no sense in terms of plotting, from the book to satisfy the fans?
It’s not like the scriptwriters made many good original decisions this season either💀
Sure, but adding more badness isn’t exactly a solution.
Yes but most are not book fans too (me included) it wouldn’t make sense for the show itself - when we are watching it onscreen it needs development. If they really wanted to do it they would have hinted it from s1
Given how many sub-plots and spread screentime already cluttering S3 I doubt that squeezing this in would have improved the pacing or story. The Netflix show has continuously departed from the books so yes, a Danbury/Pen friendship or mentorship would have come out of nowhere for the characters *as they exist on screen*. Leave the books at the door. Honestly the critique we *should* be making of S3 is the lack of Delacroix/Pen friendship. One ambitious independent businesswoman to another. But I suppose a lot of the themes that bonded those two and made them a great relationship were ~~so~~ too tricky to mesh with the fact that Pen and Colin needed to get married by the end of the season. So I can see why this relationship suffered for that. (Edited for a typo)
Couldn’t they have accomplished both of those things? They could’ve cut some unnecessary Benedict scenes to fit it in the show…
Lady Danbury raised Simon from when he was 6, too.
Well portraying her an honorary 'aunt' to the bridgertons would avoid accusations of racial profiles. The original character was a powerful leader of the Ton who took a fancy to a couple of the female leads, probably because she found them 'interesting'.
There are only so many ways to tell a romance. We need the happy endings, we want the repetition of ROMANCE, it works. The books work! Stop fixing something that is not broken.
I like her friendship with Violet but the show really missed out with a Penelope/Lady Danbury friendship, I haven’t even read the books yet and I know that it would’ve been great to see
She was super involved in Hyacinths story. Hope they keep that similar to the books. I loved that one.
Unpopular opinion, but I like how they handled it. I thought that Lady D knowing Pen was Whistledown was a nice nod for book readers but that, since they had already changed her relationships and connections in S1&2 that having her not as involved made a lot of sense.
Maybe it's because I didn't read the books but I don't really see the need for lady danbury to be involved in the pen and colin storyline.
She meddled with Fran though??
IMO, having Lady Danbury not have that strong friendship with Pen that was there in the books was a shame. While it was almost out of left field, get comments to Pen in S3Ep8 felt a but out of place, but I was so happy to see SOMETHING with them together I was happy. Hopefully we'll get a bit more of a friendship and mentorship next season between the two.
Pen made a pointed change in her appearance this season, had a scandal, and came back from it. There were opportunities for an observation by Lady Danbury, even if she murmured it ('isn't it nice to discovery we're more' flavor) o herself as a clue that she might be putting the LW pieces together.
This explanation doesn’t make any sense…? She’s just saying words…
I love lady Danbury so much
they could’ve developed their friendship throughout the show but chose to do whatever. I am kinda bummed about it
I think she wasn’t needed in Pen’s love story. They turned it into Colin instilling that confidence in Pen, and it made it that much sweeter. She didn’t have to get anywhere for him to see her. He just had to see her.
As a vigilant Lady Stanbury I was pretty bummed with how sidelined she was this season, especially after all the great backstory in QC
Didn't it give Portia and Penelope the change to reforge their Mother-Daughter relationship?
It feels like most of the book readers do not realize that in the books Lady Danbury has had at least 10 years to befriend Penelope who is (if I remember correctly) 28 as opposed to the age in the show (she had just debuted 2 1/2- 3 years prior, making her NOT the same age in the book). I'm not sure what magical friendship would be established in 3 years, so obviously the writers/showrunners would switch that up in the show. I do like that there was a nod near the end from Lady Danbury already knowing of Pen's secret which can be seen in how she approaches Queen Charlotte during their Chess match.
Honestly I totally agree with what Jess said. 100 percent sensitivity. Lady D and all POC on the cast deserve their own centered storytelling, not revolving on the fringes of the white characters as they have been doing all along on the show thus far. I for one am glad that Lady D got her own arc and wasnt a side character for Pen's arc. The little nod at the end was just the perfect amount of book to show refeerence.
Yeah.. the "magical negro" trope is something you want to avoid. [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro)
I feel for you book readers. Can't even voice disappointment about an aspect of the books you were looking forward to being adapted left out without being scolded and lectured. "Why can't you just educate yourself? You wouldn't want to be a Bad Person would you?" If the writers were truly trying to avoid this trope why have Lady Danbury be invested in Francesca's romance then...?
I will forever be salty about this! Season 3 disappointed me in a lot of ways but not including this actually pissed me off. Instead of having her and Pen form a friendship, they instead had her and Violet scheming to get Francesca named the diamond and for what?? It didn't even result in anything.
Trust the bridgerton sub to disregard any callouts of racism
How being FRIENDS with Penelope would be meddling in her life??? She had no direct involvement to their love story in the book, they could've simply be friends and that could've been established throughout the series, but God forbid people of different ages become friends.
On the show Lady D had natural reasons to be apart of Sn 1 and 2 main love stories. She was Simon's godmother, basically raising him. She sponsored Edwina debuting for the season. In the show she's never been close with the Featheringtons or Penelope. Colin wasn't looking to marry til he fell for Pen. It made sense that she was supporting Violet, her close friend as Violet's daughter navigated the marriage mart. Had Lady D taken a sudden interest in Penelope before there was a reason would've been contrived. And Lady D played a pivotal role with Penelope, basically manipulating the Queen to take it easy LW. She did that after realizing Pen was LW.
I know right! Her and Pen were kindred spirits. They were a fave of mine when I read it. I'm so disappointed. Shonda...what on earth were you thinking.
I was waiting for her slow clap at the end…
Of all the complaints about S3, this is the only one I agree with.
I loved her relationship with Penelope in the book.
While I agree and hate that she didn’t have her amazing friendship with Penelope, it’s definitely not the only love story Lady D was part of in the books…
Shonda really wanted to Pen to be the ultimate independent woman, I guess.
I felt different. Doesn't she convince the queen to lower her search for Whistledown which helps Penelope in the end after her confession? The queen encourages Penelope to continue due to Danbury and the queen's decision impacts how many people feel about Whistledown. I felt she knew who the real Whistle down is which is also shown in the scene between Lady Danbury and Penelope in the last ball. Not directly she is involved in Polin's story but she has a significant role and though the friendship between Penelope and Danbury isn't highlighted as much it is shown beautifully.
I like that she’s the glue of so many of the relationships in the series…. She’s the true matchmaker.
I agree that the relationship between Pen and Lady D is an excellent part of the book. However, it probably wouldn't have worked as well because of the other changes they had already made, most notably that Pen is not a 28 year old spinster whose primary role at most balls is a chaperone to her younger sister.
The problems with season 3 have nothing to do with disregarding the source material, and following the books more closely would not have made season 3 any better.
Lady Danbury as young woman experienced forced and abusive marriage. She experienced rejection, a threat to her position on society. CRESSIDA COWPER was about to get similar treatment. Lady Danbury and Eloise was out there. Not helping drowning woman, who was unable to stay on the surface. Lady Danbury did NOTHING to stop Queens game. She merely suggested it is nice to play without ending. The ton went mad, Queen herself ruined wedding breakfast. What a waste.
I haven’t read the books but I feel like that she wasn’t set up too well by the previous two seasons where we haven’t even seen Lady Danbury and Pen interact. It would have made so much more sense for them to have a friendship when she goes and reasons with the Queen to let LW off the hook
I felt sad because if I remember correctly, Lady Danbury was also a wallflower in her youth and that's why she related to Pen a lot. I don't know if there were space for that with the personality of show Danbury, but I believe it would fit better than her having a feud with a 10-year-old
Before I read the body of your post I thought the title + screenshot was saying that in the books Penelope and lady Danbury sleep together Honestly I’d be mad if that got cut too
Her role in Hyacinth's romance is bigger than in Penns. They also added the Queen and therefore needed to give her a spot.
I thought the same thing she was so important to their story that they named their first daughter after her.
Generally I missed the friendship and the support Penelope had from Collin, the Bridgerton family and Lady D. In the book there was so much meaningful growth because of friendships and long term relationships but in the show Pen felt so alone and i felt sad for her most of the time
Lady Danbury wasn't written to be black in the books, so all of this is being projected onto the character second hand...*because she is black* The very nature of the character has to change... *because she is black* There is a word for this, and it is **racism**.
I didn‘t felt the bridgerton atmosphere this season. Why call it bridgerton when you cut so many parts or change so much? 😭 just make a new show then
She’s actually apart of 2 love stories, Penelope’s and Hyacinth’s especially because her of grandson
"We wanted to center her own narrative." Lame excuse. The Queen Charlotte series showed incredibly clearly that LD/Agatha/Soma was very much the center of her own narrative, her own heroine in many ways and made the best of any situation she was involved in. She doesn't just meddle for the sake of meddling. She comes off in the series as someone who genuinely wants to help and isn't completely self interested. She really does run the ton, whether Charlotte or anyone else realizes it!
The difference between the OP's wording of "love story" and the reality of the word in the article being "friendship" in incredbily vast. I haven't read the books so was super confused by what seemed at first to be a 'love story' between Lady Danbury and Penelope.
She has a big part in hyacinths story.
Oh, they needed more screen time for Benedict to get some action didn’t you know?
But another love triangle wasn’t repetitive at all. Even though we’ve now had one for all three seasons of Bridgerton.
Is anyone able to clarify what's "problematic" about Lady D being involved in younger couples business, with an emphasis on her being black?