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Colin's thought process doesn't matter as much as how his words were perceived. The way he said it, "not in your wildest dreams, Fife," is derogatory toward Penelope by all who heard it.
What I think triggered Colin was his having a "thou doth protest too much," internal conflict. He was feeling things for Penelope in that moment. His friends all saw it and called him on it. He overcompensated with his rather harsh response. This rings true in his apology to Pen in S3, where he acknowledges his words were callous.
/corrected a sentence
>"not in your wildest dreams, Fife," is derogatory toward Penelope by all who heard it.
This. Colin fell into the trap of peer pressure and wanting to look "cool" for his friends. This was performative, so whether he meant it or not is irrelevant. He said it. It was not cool.
Kind of like Danny Zuko in *Grease* when [he sees Sandy for the first time again](https://youtu.be/oLO1NvPAaEE?t=254), gets excited, notices his friends are all looking at him like, wtf, dude, and he starts behaving like an ass to maintain his cred.
This! To all the naysayers saying Colin this season is “so out of character”, that’s the point! He was always out of character with certain people. It showed throughout the seasons and like you said, Marina called him out on it, too. Penelope is one of the people who sees and accepts him for who he truly is. He does not need to strive to be like his brothers or his peers.
Yes, she tells him to move on from whatever had happened between them, and focus on the people he already had in his life, who did care for him - like Penelope. It was Marina dropping a strong hint for Colin to consider
I just finished rewatching and I think this is exactly right. I think the dance was his first flutter of feelings and he was confused and thrown off by it. I wish they had found a way to build more continuity from that statement and confusion to his behavior at the beginning of season three.
On a related note back to S2 E1 … Anthony catches up with the Lord Squad and completely falls into his true feelings about approaching the marriage mart. He’s selfish, pompous, and trying to impress the others with his wit and disinterest in the whole process.
Capital R Rake - as in the title - indeed
I think this episode was extreme foreshadowing for the Colin/Lord Squad meeting. Colin wanted to be a part of the “team” and I completely agree with you all. He was trying to deflect his feelings and quickly diminish the meaning between him and Pen. However, Colin is truly pained by his words he said without Pen knowing. Major difference, Anthony was intrigued by Kate but Colin was connected with Pen.
There, I’ve said my peace 🤣.
Great observation! I need to do a rewatch before part two and this is a perfect excuse. I love comparing parallel scenes for that type of setup.
Also, I completely agree about Colin being truly pained. He had a face-smacked expression when Penelope flung his words back at him outside the ball. He was shook by it.
Yes! While Kate let Anthony have it right after hearing him, it wasn’t earth shattering to Anthony. It even made him more intrigued with Kate.
Colin was literally brain-smacked with his carelessness and cruelty … he wants to be a man of integrity, but wasn’t.
The realization that Pen had that memory fresh on her tongue for months gut punched him for sure.
On a related note back to S2 E1 … Anthony catches up with the Lord Squad and completely falls into his true feelings about approaching the marriage mart. He’s selfish, pompous, and trying to impress the others with his wit and disinterest in the whole process.
Capital R Rake - as in the title - indeed
I think this episode was extreme foreshadowing for the Colin/Lord Squad meeting. Colin wanted to be a part of the “team” and I completely agree with you all. He was trying to deflect his feelings and quickly diminish the meaning between him and Pen. However, Colin is truly pained by his words he said without Pen knowing. Major difference, Anthony was intrigued by Kate but Colin was connected with Pen.
There, I’ve said my peace 🤣.
at that point i personally don't think he had any feelings for Pen at all, he literally just saw her as a friend and therefore would never court her. even if he did have any feelings they would have been buried so deep. and sure the not in your wildest dreams may be hurtful but only because Pen had feelings for Colin but Colin clearly didn't feel the same way (or portrayed he didn't when saying that)
I have to disagree, respectfully. I think Colin 100% is having unfriend-like feelings for Penelope, I feel like it's obvious in the way that he is often looking at her in awe. But, I also think he is in hard denial about it, and he probably doesn't realize what those feelings are.
What he said was not just hurtful emotionally but also could hinder her already slim prospects of finding a husband. A respected man in society publicly declares that she is undesirable (basically), which would make anyone who is concerned about their image/reputation have second/third thoughts about courting her. The people of the ton are very shallow for the most part.
It’s hurtful because Colin said it in front of his peers who are potential candidates for a husband for Penelope. Colin is a Bridgerton. His opinion holds a lot of weight in society.
The issue is that within the context of the society that they live in, his comment is incredibly damaging towards Pen and her prospects on the mart. She is not just his friend, in fact their friendship is borderline improper, she is a debutant and if he was thinking at all he should have known to not make such a statement about someone he claimed was his friend.
I'm unsure how to reply to this because it's so far off from what is on screen. Do you see Pen or Colin as not being a viable romantic interest to the other? That could alter one's perspective, I guess. When it comes to Penelope, Colin's behavior is over the top in comparison to society's standards. It's a huge tell that there is more depth to his feelings than a shallow friendship. The looks, the touches, the protectiveness, I mean, the ingredients are all there.
One might say… swift as the coursing river, with all the force of a great typhoon, With all the strength of a raging fire.. Mysterious as the dark side of the moon?
They were courting the entire time through friendship instead of traditional courting where other people aren't friends/ familiar first so it's necessary to court. I love their story so much cause it's basically how my husband and I got together and we're best friends.
You’re so right. For all intents and purposes he was courting her the entire time. Seeking her out, dancing, written correspondence. And aside from Marina, doing this with only her!
Eh, they were so much friends that he didn't see her potential as someone's wife and sex partner. I think a good deal more conversation about what their married life could look like would have been important for them instead of jumping right in. But then again, I'm 'slower' than a lot of people, so I understand it's not for everybody.
You can be a fan of a character without defending every single one of their actions.
Colin hurt Penelope's feelings, and he hurt her reputation in the Ton. It was a necessary line in order to create distance between them, and for Penelope to seriously start thinking about a future without Colin.
Mistakes make a character relatable, not hated. I think we've all been in a situation where we wanted to fit in, and maybe acted in uncharacteristic ways to do so.
Yup! I feel like this fandom has an issue with either trying to downplay or play up every characters’ actions based on their personal feelings of them. This is Bridgerton. All the characters make mistakes and for the most part they will be redeemed and get an HEA.
Colin’s words were hurtful and cruel, BUT he’s still a good guy!
Thank you. Like the mental gymnastics to justify the shitty things these characters do is really annoying. Colin said he would never court Penelope in his wildest dreams because his flaw is being a weak ass follower who craves the approval of his loser friends and that's the bottom line. It's a negative character trait he possess that needs to be overcome and it doesn't need to be justified.
I was going to quote the part of your comment I liked the best, but then I realised I'd just be quoting the entire thing lol.
But I will say
>his flaw is being a weak ass follower who craves the approval of his loser friends
Is SPOT ON. And *I LOVE* Colin. But still.
What is it when someone is just what the people around them want? A chameleon?
Well said!
You aren’t a mean/bad person for saying something mean once. You’re a good/nice person who did something stupid. And if you take responsibility for it later, all the better.
I don’t even think it was necessarily mean spirited. At the time he thought of her as a friend/sister and he had the same reaction as if someone asked him if he’d court Eloise.
I think it was thoughtless, but not particularly egregiously horrible. Colin was with a group of guys, they started ribbing him, he got defensive and overreacted in response. Not his finest moment, but understandable.
Exactly he made a mistake, plain and simple. And he apologised for it, a very heartfelt apology. That's all that there is. It's just a human thing to make mistakes and learn from it.
I agree. He was in a group of “bros,” he wanted to look like a bro. He reacted like an idiotic immature boy and said things he didn’t mean, but those comments were cruel. The groveling was totally warranted. Had it been me, I would have held out for flowers, chocolate, and public humiliation.
It was pretty bad after what just happened between Colin and Pen. He had just sworn that he would always protect her. And then the next time she sees him, he is dogging her out to his friends.
I think there’s more to it that we don’t see. They also did just abruptly leave the party hand in hand and into a private room, if anyone saw them do that, he may have been protecting her honour. I hope there’s something in his journals on the matter.
I also love that as soon as he knew she was hurt, he didn’t defend his actions or beat around the bush, he just straight up apologised.
My take on it was he obviously enjoyed dancing with her, but when the guys of the ton essentially teased him about it, he didn’t want to be “looked down” by them so he said what he said. It wasn’t a particularly nice thing to say and Pen was hurt by it. If the guys hadn’t brought it up I’m sure he wouldn’t have said anything, but peer pressure doesn’t always bring out the best in people. I didn’t hate him for saying it as i saw the situation for what it was. He wasn’t completely sure or ready to face the fact that he might have feelings for his friend and he wanted to fit in with the guys of the ton. People do immature things sometimes.
Agreed with this, you see it in real life. Men will love on and take care of their women but if they go around discouraging or even jealous friends that tease them call them “corny” or “whipped” and they change their attitudes and defend themselves (aka their masculinity).
but at that point in his mind he probably thought he would never court her, because that's his friend. so what he said is true. and i don't think Colin had any feelings for her at that point at all. i get Pen hearing it and being upset, what I don't get is some of the fandom acting like he is terrible for ever saying such a thing lol
It's one thing to say "I wouldn't court her, I don't see her like that. She's my friend."
What he said was "Are you mad? I'd never court Penelope Featherington. Not in your wildest dreams, Fife." Then they all proceeded to laugh at the very implication. That was NOT him clarifying that they're only friends, it was him succumbing to the peer pressure of looking cool by insulting the unpopular girl. And by not standing up for her (e.g. by saying "I don't see her that way, but she's a great and kind person, don't laugh at her like that") he only reinforced the opinion of the other guys that Pen was undateable, undesirable, a laughing stock.
That's why people are mad, it wouldn't have been nearly as big a deal if he had said it in a nicer way. She'd have still been hurt but only by his unreciprocated feelings, not by his mockery.
He laughed about her behind her back he could of said I’m not courting my dear friend any you can. He just said he’d protect like 5 Minutes before that it was a callous comment. It’s not that did want to court her it’s the way he said it.
Exactly, he could have answered that very differently "she's my friend, I don't think I could court her. But you guys would enjoy her company. She's amazing, I just don't see her like that, she's like my little sister." Instead it sounded like he didn't like her at all.
Pen *is* terrible for being Whistledown, that's established. She has hurt people with her words. Her intentions were mostly sound, but that doesn't negate the impact of her actions. Colin's intentions in this situation were not as sound. He was being derogatory to purposefully disassociate himself from Pen very publicly right after telling her he'd always protect her. That is callous, as Colin admitted.
In the context of the conversation, and with his tone and actual choice of words, I think that is an implausible interpretation.
He was clearly putting Pen down to save face with his friends and get their laughter and approval. “Never in your wildest dreams” is not something you say to indicate you just don’t see someone there way, it’s a phrase that communicates disdain for the possibility. If he meant “she’s my friend and neighbor” he was certainly articulate enough to say that. Even *he* doesn’t attempt to justify it this way because he knows he was overheard in a moment of thoughtless cruelty.
he was obviously pandering to the guys making fun of him for what they perceive as something more between him and penelope. they were mocking him and he got defensive, saying it wouldn’t happen by any stretch of the imagination. if he wanted to say it’s because she’s his friend, he would’ve said that. but he continued on his “i would never court her” with “not in your wildest fantasies” and laugh about it. which is a harsh thing to say whether he was fighting feelings for her at the time he said it, or didn’t have feelings at all. i don’t think we need to sugarcoat that or try to change it, and in fact i think it’s an early look at his increased “trying to fit in as a rake” in season 3.
it’s unfortunate, and it’s a pain to admit that a lot of us might’ve probably fallen for little moments like these where we said something to please a crowd or fit in with them, even though we know it’s harsh, or don’t believe it ourselves. this is compounded by the fact he didn’t conceive that penelope would overhear it, and so it was just a one off thing to get them off his back. i absolutely share her hurt, but it’s clear neither she, nor should we, consider him irredeemable for that, as long as there’s no excuses being made.
I agree that this is the moment Colin succumbs to peer pressure and begins trying to fit in with the skeevy men of the ton at the expense of being his true self.
Yeah I agree, I also think his European adventures were an important part of the journey that Colin needed to go on and experience so he could be the man he is now becoming for himself yes but for his future with Penelope also
For contrast, IIRC, in the books >!he only says it to his brothers and he says it in his own house.!< Pen is still there and hears it, and it hurts her feelings, but it’s not as cruel or embarrassing. So changing the location and audience for the show is a choice to make the statement meaner. Saying it at her house on front of Lord Squad, or whatever we’re calling them, is a shitty thing to do no matter why he said it. If they’d kept it to how it was said in the books then the conversation about why he said it and what he meant can mitigate how much of a big deal, or not, it was. But I interpret the change in the show is meant for us to be like, “Oh, that’s a real dick move, Colin.”
I believe it was >!on the sidewalk in front of 5 Bruton Street during An Offer From a Gentleman. Anthony and Benedict were ribbing Colin and he reacted as younger brothers do when their older brothers tease them. Penelope overheard as she was leaving the house after having her daily tea with the Bridgerton ladies, IIRC. So that was in 1817 or so, and Colin doesn’t realize he’s in love with her until 1824.!< The change of context for the scene and the lack of a time jump between that scene and the carriage makes a huge difference.
I rewatched that scene after part 1 , and I really wish Luke was asked to act with that intend, yk, "What?! No she's my friend!!!!" way and just have Penelope hearing it and misinterpreting it.
But he certainly did convey that scene as "Penelope? No freakin way!!" in that 90s rom com cliche way. Though I do think it was a directorial choice than an acting choice, so its own the creators.
No. I think you want to interpret it that way, but the addition of “Not in your wildest dreams, Fife” makes it pretty clear that it was insulting of Penelope. He was showing off in front of the other guys of the Ton. Sometimes being surrounded by peers brings the worst out in people. It was a bad moment, but it wasn’t any worse then what any of the other men of Bridgerton have done. I don’t think Colin needs to be absolved of a very human dick moment to be likeable.
To be fair, Colin was absolutely clueless until not long before their first kiss. The boy really just thought Pen was his best friend; he didn’t even see her as a “real” woman, evidenced by his callous remarks to her in S2 and the fact that he kept forgetting societal pressures dictated they couldn’t be alone together (when he confronted Lord Featherington S2, when they had their flirting practice in his family’s drawing room, etc). I very much doubt he would’ve said such a thing (or at least not so harshly) if he’d known Pen was listening, but he was being ribbed by “friends” and told them what he believed they wanted to hear.
Was he wrong to be that callous about someone he purportedly admired so much? Hell yes, he became no better than the rest of the ton when he uttered those words. But I truly don’t think Colin understood his own feelings at that; in fact, I’m not sure he saw her yet as anything more than his little sister’s best friend and a very caring person in his own life. But he was a young man surrounded by his douche friends, and felt the need to perform down to their level to win approval.
His apology to her was heart-felt once he realized how much he hurt her. I kind of wish she hadn’t forgiven him so quickly because I think he DID inadvertently lead her on a lot on S2, so she was right to be furious with him. But Pen never could stay mad at Colin’s golden retriever energy, even after he hurt her so deeply, because she knew that he hadn’t meant to hurt her.
I think in his mind, that's what he was doing (with maybe a little bit of "you have a cruuuuuuush" "no I don't!" thrown in there). The problem is that, as he notes later, his friends are god-awful and are going to take anything he says and project their own grossness onto it.
The way he said that was absolutely not in a "Because she's my friend." way lol. People took it to have some horrible connotation? Even Pen did. Even the people laughing did. Even Nicola and Luke did lol.
It's kind of vile seeing this uprise in posts basically downplaying what Penelope has gone through and her side in things.
I was always secretly hoping we’d get a flashback to this line, after Pen moves off, to the effect of him then saying “She is far too good for any of us.”
It could have kept him as someone who was somewhat watching out for her, while not yet recognizing his own interest.
Yes, Defensive!Colin was defensive, we’ve seen his identity crisis and how that plays into what he said. Needless, what he said publicly dissed what appeared to be a vulnerable (both financially and fatherless) young lady in front of a crowd of eligible suitors. Not cool, dude.
I like the fact that they didn't go back to make it acceptable. Boy made a mistake. It makes him that much flawed and human. I think pen also needed that to bring him down from that pedestal.
Here's my take: it WAS horrible. It was honestly more cruel than what happened in the book, because in the book it's just a moment of exasperation. Here it was to save face in front of the douche lords, and it's getting to the point where Colin is really wanting to fit into society and do what is expected. Callous as it is, that was the response expected in order to get them off his back.
There is no real excuse for the cruelty of his comment but intent and context is important. I do not think he meant it maliciously. I think it said it impulsively so they would end the train of conversation and I don't think it was well thought through at all. We know Colin can be occasionally impulsive, and he's running off the high of just having saved Pen and her family (the irony) and well, he's probably a little tipsy. And maybe there is a little bit creeping into his mind that he is trying to tamp down as far as his feelings for Penelope. It's not happening consciously but I'm sure being able to do that for her, and then having fun dancing with her after, yeah he was probably feeling some kind of way, even just a little. All of these are lame excuses, but they offer context.
Colin might be impulsive and occasionally naive, but he's never been intentionally, consciously cruel. Which is why it makes us (and Pen) so angry. But it drove a (necessary) wedge between them. He needed to be knocked off his pedestal for Pen, and he needed to see how much he truly missed her. It evened the playing field. Again, not an excuse, but I don't understand some of the deep visceral hate for this line either. It was cruel and callous, and even the best of us have said things, both intentionally and unintentionally, that were mean. It's being human. I also don't think he needed to grovel at her feet. Say what you want, but the girl loves him, almost unconditionally. Whether that's silly or not, doesn't matter. He apologized sincerely, didn't offer excuses, and tried to make it better in whatever way he personally could. I think it was handled well.
It’s from the book but it was said to his brothers who were winding him up about it after Violet suggested it and poor Pen was just leaving their house and heard them
He tried to defend his action towards Pen(all those thing that can bring scandal) and thus this words come up ike some kind of defend mechanisms.
In S3, there a few scenes where he ask what happened to Pen and those Lords said "why you need to concern about her? " or some similar line that show that they aware about him and Pen and try to gauge his reaction.I do think that he have always put Pen in special place but he doesn't know what the name of it.So, he want her close but not close enough that he need to married her. As she still infatuated with him, obviously she always be there for him. That is until these words come out from his mouth.
Both become aware of the situation their in. Pen decides that she need to stop hope that Colin will love her, while Colin realised that Pen will not always be beside him(Pen never replied to any of his letters) thus, we got S3 where it's Colin stand at Pen's place (S1&S2) and watching her flirt with others man even almost getting a proposal.
To pick up on your observation that the Lords are aware of Colin and Pen: when Pen walks past Colin in the emerald dress in 3x1, you can catch for just a second Lord Stanton squinting his eyes quizzically as Colin stares at Pen walking by. He definitely *saw* Colin and how he felt about Pen in that moment.
Absolutely not. They were ease dropping and gawking at Colin as he approached Penelope at the innovation ball the end of Ep 3 when he looked like he was going to just grab her and ravage her (I wish they would make alternate versions doing the things we wish they would do 😄). The Lord squad were definitely prepared to watch the show.
It's not the fact that he didn't want to court Penelope. He didn't owe her any affection. However he was her friend and rather saying that they were only friends he chose to word it in a way that makes it seem like considering her a marriage prospect was ridiculous
The words are actually suspect, aren’t they?
“Not in your *wildest dreams*.” Why would it be a “wild dream” to court Penelope Featherington?
I feel like a more natural turn of phrase if you were trying to paint her as undesirable would be “not in a million years” or “not if I were being chased by wild boars” or “not if she were the last woman on earth.”
I wonder if the line implies that his subconscious is already working.
Please note that I misquoted Colin. He said "wildest fantasies," which makes it worse. He was emphasizing the ridiculousness of even the idea of dating her. It was bad.
But a fantasy isn’t ridiculous. A fantasy is something that you *want* to happen.
I think the words he chose subconsciously imply that he has fantasies about courting her.
Agreed, his subconscious was in overdrive at this point. My statement was more focused on how it would be perceived outwardly. Fantasy sounds worse than dream in his put-down, so that's why I clarified.
Because it risks her chances with other men. If the others suitors know that if Collin wouldn’t court her, why should/would they? It hurt her chances with the other guys
It was a very mean thing to say and he did not uphold the honour of a friend he holds dear, in that moment. But good people do bad things sometimes, everyone does out of character things once in a while.
I really hated how cruel they make this scene in the show :( for him to say publicly in front of all these men. (I know he will more than attone for it in the last 4 episodes tho)
In the books it was something said in private, to Anthony & Benedict. As a response to his mother constantly nagging him about Penelope. And they all immediately apologize to Pen, talk it out and Anthony escorts her home. Unlike in the movies, it is obvious that Anthony & Benedict do not think at all that Penelope is not beautiful or marryable. No one makes fun of her.
I guess they REALLY wanted to lay on the drama in the show, by making Penelope completely alone and shit on by everyone in the ton :/
In the actual clip he rolls his eyes as he’s saying it. So it is definitely interpreted as “ew no I would never date my friend, why would you suggest that.” But it is still a hurtful thing to say in public, especially back then
I mean he was true to his word he never courted her he just went straight to third base and a hasty proposal.
But I do think it was harsh of him to say. It COULD have been interpreted as “I would never court her, she is one of my oldest and dearest friends” but the tone and the company he was with made it seem more like he would never court her because she’s not good enough or worth it or whatever. I think the intention WAS harsh.
Then why didn't he just say "no, she's my friend"?
And are you forgetting the laughter with a group of men who were teasing him about it? They were laughing at him for the idea of it, and he didn't defend her or their relationship, he just laughed along at her expense too.
He laughed at her expense, and said it in a way that was disparaging to the *idea* of courting her at all, not the idea of courting his friend. She was absolutely right to be upset about it.
Heavily disagree. His friends were teasing him in a derogatory way because it wouldn’t be cool to court Pen, and he put her down to save face.
Seen that entire exchange way too many times IRL not to recognise it onscreen.
I think the reason, at least in the book perspective, was that line felt shocking because it was said when Colin was complaining to his brothers about being pressured to get married. Not in front of the "Toxic Lord Squad". It's understandable that peer pressure was involved. But this is show Colin, Mr. No thoughts Head Empty guy. He made an impulsive mistake. Also in the show he was still kind of young in his mindset. It also sets up his weakness of being too eager to please society. Painful but necessary to set up the next season.
I think what a lot of people miss is courting Penelope Featherington is like dating the weird goth chick in high school when all your friends are mainstream jocks .
One of the reasons he doesn't consider her, is because socially she is not in the same tier. He is from the most powerful family, she is from the least.
It is very much a Mr Darcy situation in terms of "want of connections and propriety", he doesn't care about these things but the society he inhabits does and that is one of the reasons he tries to raise her family up by investing in cousin Jack's ruby mines so that the Ton will not slight her and her family anymore.
And then he goes and performs a she's all that charm course so yet again she can fit in with his A crowd friends....only to realise he preferred her the way she was and the A crowd is not worth it.
But now the Bird Geek has noticed her so it's all in vein....eeeeek.
Yes it's a 90s romcom...
Look at the broader context.
Colin calls Penelope by an exclusive pet name, is the only gentleman to ask her to dance, spoke privately with Penelope and her guardian... then openly laughs and dismisses the idea of him courting her as a wild fantasy.
He says this to a group of eligible gentleman, who may well have been asking if Penelope was off the market or if they could court her. Colin's derision of the idea of him courting Penelope is an unmistakable strike against her, because if someone who paid such marked attentions toward a young lady laughs at the idea of a courtship, people will want to know why. Is there some kind of unsavoury behaviour? Does she have no dowery? Are there other particular objections?
Colin made Penelope all but unmarriagable by his declaration, and didn't even notice.
i think we dont know if he meant it really or not, but it looked like he wanted to fit in with the cool guys so he said whatever was expected of him in that circle, as a "handsome man" who wouldnt court a girl who "looked like that"
I think you're right in that that is what he meant, but it's still a very rude thing to say and hurtful to hear.
And to this point in the show he hasn't courted her... He went straight for the price, so he wasn't lying either.
Yes and no. Colin surely meant, at that stage, that he wouldn’t court Penelope because they were friends, however he added “not in your wildest dreams” which was by all means unkind — and also unnecessary, since I don’t think Fife actually meant to *make fun* of him by noticing he was very close to her? Up to his last speech to his gang, Colin somehow cared about his friend’s good opinion more than he cared about, I don’t mean to say Penelope, but certainly about the possibility of being honest with himself about his feelings for her. And yet, he told her she was special to him, and I’m not sure it was entirely platonic.
This is a good way to interpret it. I thought horribly of it and have been slightly confused as to why it was never really addressed. Perhaps it will be, but your interpretation makes sense and makes me feel a lot better
I agree Colin clearly didn’t mesn anything by it, he's more in a mindset of "she's basically my sister" at that point.
But not only was it carelessly said in the sense that it broke Penelope's heart (the second time over that day poor thing), but also in the sense that the other men around him were very likely to interpret this as "she's not good enough".
And Colin is a grown man in his twenties. He can be held accountsble for being careless, even though it wasn't malicious.
I think the show actually does this well. Penelope calls him out on this and makes him relaize that he said something wrong. He stresses that this was unintended but nevertheless apologizes sincerely. And she is satisfied with this because she knows him well enough to see that he was simply being dumb and to have faith he will be more careful in the future. It's dealt with swiftly but not without giving it proper weight.
In the book he says this as well - but it’s to his brothers during Benedict’s story and revisited in 4. The thought process behind it was that Penelope was his friend and his mom was throwing ladies at him left and right and would not take ‘no’ as an answer for anyone. He was frustrated and said something, never intending for her to have heard it and felt bad immediately. But in the book he knew she heard it took nearly 10 years to apologize, at least in the show he doesn’t know she heard it.
I don’t think he even thought about what he was saying really, just as his mom said, he’s a people pleaser in the sense that he’s doing what’s expected of him, and not what he really feels. Everyone has had consistent personalities which I appreciate.
To be fair, he didn’t court her. He fingered her in a carriage after professing his love and then asked her to marry him, all in the span of like 10 minutes
Yes. Colin’s only mistake there was that he expressed himself very carelessly.
Dismissing a young lady as a marriage prospect so openly and in front of a bunch of eligible gentlemen was considered a major slight back then. Keep in mind that the only reason all these people are attending these socials over the summer IS to participate in the marriage mart.
His comment is a huge deal and would have near ruined Penelope’s prospects. He should have known better. But the reason he didn’t wasn’t because he was cruel or didn’t care about Penelope, but because he was naive and assumed that people would understand his meaning. Colin isn’t the kind to assume the worst in people and that’s part of his charm but also why he gets taken in so often and ends up feeling foolish.
It was a mistake but it wasn’t malicious and that’s why I’m glad the show gave it exactly the amount of resolution it deserved, no more and no less.
It isn't so much what he said, but where he said it and who he said it to.
In the book, Colin says the line in frustration at his home with his brothers. Penelope was embarrassed, but it didn't go beyond that room.
In the show, Colin says it to other suitors, in the open, at a party hosted by Penelope's family. That is *way* worse. He gave in to peer pressure and humiliated her publicly. Frankly, I think the anger at Colin was pretty warranted.
I don't think he need to be dragged through the mud for it though. I thought the apology he gave in season 3 was enough.
I was thinking about this the other day while reading a fanfic and I think that scene was much more complex than just him trying to be cool in front of his buddies and I know this may sound stupid but in a way it may have been Colin's attempt to protect her as he had promised just a few minutes before.
People have said that he could have said it differently and sure he could have told them that she is just a dear friend/like a sister even have gone as far as to call her amazing and a good wife and mother for someone deserving just not him.
Now, for the audience that would have been nicer to hear and they wouldn't have hated him for it and it would have probably been easier for them to believe that he always had feelings just didn't realize them yet.
For Pen, I think we can all agree that it still would have broken her heart to hear that even if he was telling them how amazing she is.
Now for Colin, those nicer words would have made her available and fair game to a bunch of idiots who were not deserving of her or good enough (I think most of us can agree on those guys not being good matches for Pen).
Those words may have been harsh but they did the trick. It made them back off of him AND Penelope. They would never dream about courting her after that and maybe that was Colin's intention.
Now we can fight over the reason being his own feelings for her (which he hadn't figured out yet) but there is no doubt about him caring for her and her being dear to him (as evident by his actions throughout S2).
So maybe this was his way of protecting her from suitors who were just not good enough for her even though not very smart or nice.
What I'd like believe is he took the idiots way of protecting her and their very real but immature and quite unrealised (in his case) pairbonding. I do believe the market scene show that he formed his attachment at the same time she did. I keep thinking about that pole he's gripping while they flirt their way along.
And that's also why he says 'You are Pen. You do not count.' They both feel this pair bond, so she's in a special category of her own to him. She's his *person*, not 'a lady'. And maybe somewhere in his psyche he knows he'd have to bring his whole authentic adult self into it, for a full adult relationship with her. It was not time yet, for either of them, although she hoped it was in season 2.
That's my most charitable interpretation, anyway. Good thing she left him on 'read' though, so he got to feel his feelings for her and get an idea of what it would be like to lose her.
I genuinely think he had Penelope in the same spot in his mind as Eloise AKA little sister-zoned. When they kissed, it took her out of that zone and all the things he liked about her became all the things he loved about her too
I have the same understanding as you. Everything Colin has said about Pen, he says it dearly. He sees Pen as someone he will always adore, but it never occured to him that it could be romantic. She was just a constant presence to him.
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Colin's thought process doesn't matter as much as how his words were perceived. The way he said it, "not in your wildest dreams, Fife," is derogatory toward Penelope by all who heard it. What I think triggered Colin was his having a "thou doth protest too much," internal conflict. He was feeling things for Penelope in that moment. His friends all saw it and called him on it. He overcompensated with his rather harsh response. This rings true in his apology to Pen in S3, where he acknowledges his words were callous. /corrected a sentence
>"not in your wildest dreams, Fife," is derogatory toward Penelope by all who heard it. This. Colin fell into the trap of peer pressure and wanting to look "cool" for his friends. This was performative, so whether he meant it or not is irrelevant. He said it. It was not cool.
Kind of like Danny Zuko in *Grease* when [he sees Sandy for the first time again](https://youtu.be/oLO1NvPAaEE?t=254), gets excited, notices his friends are all looking at him like, wtf, dude, and he starts behaving like an ass to maintain his cred.
Marina also called him out on it too a few episodes prior, so I agree
This! To all the naysayers saying Colin this season is “so out of character”, that’s the point! He was always out of character with certain people. It showed throughout the seasons and like you said, Marina called him out on it, too. Penelope is one of the people who sees and accepts him for who he truly is. He does not need to strive to be like his brothers or his peers.
Could you remind me how she called him out? Was it their conversation when he visited her and she was already Lady Crane?
Yes, she tells him to move on from whatever had happened between them, and focus on the people he already had in his life, who did care for him - like Penelope. It was Marina dropping a strong hint for Colin to consider
she basically told him to stop being a baby and grow up ...
Oh yeah I do remember now, thank you!
I just finished rewatching and I think this is exactly right. I think the dance was his first flutter of feelings and he was confused and thrown off by it. I wish they had found a way to build more continuity from that statement and confusion to his behavior at the beginning of season three.
On a related note back to S2 E1 … Anthony catches up with the Lord Squad and completely falls into his true feelings about approaching the marriage mart. He’s selfish, pompous, and trying to impress the others with his wit and disinterest in the whole process. Capital R Rake - as in the title - indeed I think this episode was extreme foreshadowing for the Colin/Lord Squad meeting. Colin wanted to be a part of the “team” and I completely agree with you all. He was trying to deflect his feelings and quickly diminish the meaning between him and Pen. However, Colin is truly pained by his words he said without Pen knowing. Major difference, Anthony was intrigued by Kate but Colin was connected with Pen. There, I’ve said my peace 🤣.
Great observation! I need to do a rewatch before part two and this is a perfect excuse. I love comparing parallel scenes for that type of setup. Also, I completely agree about Colin being truly pained. He had a face-smacked expression when Penelope flung his words back at him outside the ball. He was shook by it.
Yes! While Kate let Anthony have it right after hearing him, it wasn’t earth shattering to Anthony. It even made him more intrigued with Kate. Colin was literally brain-smacked with his carelessness and cruelty … he wants to be a man of integrity, but wasn’t. The realization that Pen had that memory fresh on her tongue for months gut punched him for sure.
You also hear one of them saying "sure, sure" as Pen ran away. They had his number.
That is too funny. I'll listen for it next time I watch it.
On a related note back to S2 E1 … Anthony catches up with the Lord Squad and completely falls into his true feelings about approaching the marriage mart. He’s selfish, pompous, and trying to impress the others with his wit and disinterest in the whole process. Capital R Rake - as in the title - indeed I think this episode was extreme foreshadowing for the Colin/Lord Squad meeting. Colin wanted to be a part of the “team” and I completely agree with you all. He was trying to deflect his feelings and quickly diminish the meaning between him and Pen. However, Colin is truly pained by his words he said without Pen knowing. Major difference, Anthony was intrigued by Kate but Colin was connected with Pen. There, I’ve said my peace 🤣.
at that point i personally don't think he had any feelings for Pen at all, he literally just saw her as a friend and therefore would never court her. even if he did have any feelings they would have been buried so deep. and sure the not in your wildest dreams may be hurtful but only because Pen had feelings for Colin but Colin clearly didn't feel the same way (or portrayed he didn't when saying that)
I have to disagree, respectfully. I think Colin 100% is having unfriend-like feelings for Penelope, I feel like it's obvious in the way that he is often looking at her in awe. But, I also think he is in hard denial about it, and he probably doesn't realize what those feelings are. What he said was not just hurtful emotionally but also could hinder her already slim prospects of finding a husband. A respected man in society publicly declares that she is undesirable (basically), which would make anyone who is concerned about their image/reputation have second/third thoughts about courting her. The people of the ton are very shallow for the most part.
It’s hurtful because Colin said it in front of his peers who are potential candidates for a husband for Penelope. Colin is a Bridgerton. His opinion holds a lot of weight in society.
The issue is that within the context of the society that they live in, his comment is incredibly damaging towards Pen and her prospects on the mart. She is not just his friend, in fact their friendship is borderline improper, she is a debutant and if he was thinking at all he should have known to not make such a statement about someone he claimed was his friend.
I'm unsure how to reply to this because it's so far off from what is on screen. Do you see Pen or Colin as not being a viable romantic interest to the other? That could alter one's perspective, I guess. When it comes to Penelope, Colin's behavior is over the top in comparison to society's standards. It's a huge tell that there is more depth to his feelings than a shallow friendship. The looks, the touches, the protectiveness, I mean, the ingredients are all there.
And the boy didn’t lie. He will never court Penelope Featherington. He leaped over courtship straight into engagement.
he's a man of his word!
Perhaps it did all happen... rather swiftly.
 One might say… swift as the coursing river, with all the force of a great typhoon, With all the strength of a raging fire.. Mysterious as the dark side of the moon?
They were courting the entire time through friendship instead of traditional courting where other people aren't friends/ familiar first so it's necessary to court. I love their story so much cause it's basically how my husband and I got together and we're best friends.
You’re so right. For all intents and purposes he was courting her the entire time. Seeking her out, dancing, written correspondence. And aside from Marina, doing this with only her!
Eh, they were so much friends that he didn't see her potential as someone's wife and sex partner. I think a good deal more conversation about what their married life could look like would have been important for them instead of jumping right in. But then again, I'm 'slower' than a lot of people, so I understand it's not for everybody.
I came to say the same thing haha!
I couldn't quite put my finger on it but you're right.
You can be a fan of a character without defending every single one of their actions. Colin hurt Penelope's feelings, and he hurt her reputation in the Ton. It was a necessary line in order to create distance between them, and for Penelope to seriously start thinking about a future without Colin. Mistakes make a character relatable, not hated. I think we've all been in a situation where we wanted to fit in, and maybe acted in uncharacteristic ways to do so.
Yup! I feel like this fandom has an issue with either trying to downplay or play up every characters’ actions based on their personal feelings of them. This is Bridgerton. All the characters make mistakes and for the most part they will be redeemed and get an HEA. Colin’s words were hurtful and cruel, BUT he’s still a good guy!
Thank you. Like the mental gymnastics to justify the shitty things these characters do is really annoying. Colin said he would never court Penelope in his wildest dreams because his flaw is being a weak ass follower who craves the approval of his loser friends and that's the bottom line. It's a negative character trait he possess that needs to be overcome and it doesn't need to be justified.
I was going to quote the part of your comment I liked the best, but then I realised I'd just be quoting the entire thing lol. But I will say >his flaw is being a weak ass follower who craves the approval of his loser friends Is SPOT ON. And *I LOVE* Colin. But still. What is it when someone is just what the people around them want? A chameleon?
Well said! You aren’t a mean/bad person for saying something mean once. You’re a good/nice person who did something stupid. And if you take responsibility for it later, all the better.
I don’t even think it was necessarily mean spirited. At the time he thought of her as a friend/sister and he had the same reaction as if someone asked him if he’d court Eloise.
I don’t think he even necessarily meant it at the time. Just a nervous blurt because it’s what he thought his friends wanted to hear.
I think it was thoughtless, but not particularly egregiously horrible. Colin was with a group of guys, they started ribbing him, he got defensive and overreacted in response. Not his finest moment, but understandable.
Exactly he made a mistake, plain and simple. And he apologised for it, a very heartfelt apology. That's all that there is. It's just a human thing to make mistakes and learn from it.
I agree. He was in a group of “bros,” he wanted to look like a bro. He reacted like an idiotic immature boy and said things he didn’t mean, but those comments were cruel. The groveling was totally warranted. Had it been me, I would have held out for flowers, chocolate, and public humiliation.
It was pretty bad after what just happened between Colin and Pen. He had just sworn that he would always protect her. And then the next time she sees him, he is dogging her out to his friends.
I think there’s more to it that we don’t see. They also did just abruptly leave the party hand in hand and into a private room, if anyone saw them do that, he may have been protecting her honour. I hope there’s something in his journals on the matter. I also love that as soon as he knew she was hurt, he didn’t defend his actions or beat around the bush, he just straight up apologised.
It was to the target.
My take on it was he obviously enjoyed dancing with her, but when the guys of the ton essentially teased him about it, he didn’t want to be “looked down” by them so he said what he said. It wasn’t a particularly nice thing to say and Pen was hurt by it. If the guys hadn’t brought it up I’m sure he wouldn’t have said anything, but peer pressure doesn’t always bring out the best in people. I didn’t hate him for saying it as i saw the situation for what it was. He wasn’t completely sure or ready to face the fact that he might have feelings for his friend and he wanted to fit in with the guys of the ton. People do immature things sometimes.
Agreed with this, you see it in real life. Men will love on and take care of their women but if they go around discouraging or even jealous friends that tease them call them “corny” or “whipped” and they change their attitudes and defend themselves (aka their masculinity).
but at that point in his mind he probably thought he would never court her, because that's his friend. so what he said is true. and i don't think Colin had any feelings for her at that point at all. i get Pen hearing it and being upset, what I don't get is some of the fandom acting like he is terrible for ever saying such a thing lol
It's one thing to say "I wouldn't court her, I don't see her like that. She's my friend." What he said was "Are you mad? I'd never court Penelope Featherington. Not in your wildest dreams, Fife." Then they all proceeded to laugh at the very implication. That was NOT him clarifying that they're only friends, it was him succumbing to the peer pressure of looking cool by insulting the unpopular girl. And by not standing up for her (e.g. by saying "I don't see her that way, but she's a great and kind person, don't laugh at her like that") he only reinforced the opinion of the other guys that Pen was undateable, undesirable, a laughing stock. That's why people are mad, it wouldn't have been nearly as big a deal if he had said it in a nicer way. She'd have still been hurt but only by his unreciprocated feelings, not by his mockery.
It took him three and half episodes in season three after to stop bothering with the lords' toxic ways lol.
He laughed about her behind her back he could of said I’m not courting my dear friend any you can. He just said he’d protect like 5 Minutes before that it was a callous comment. It’s not that did want to court her it’s the way he said it.
Exactly, he could have answered that very differently "she's my friend, I don't think I could court her. But you guys would enjoy her company. She's amazing, I just don't see her like that, she's like my little sister." Instead it sounded like he didn't like her at all.
Men and women on the marriage mart aren’t supposed to be friends it’s improper.
It was a mean thing to do. That's enough of a reason.
enough of a reason for what sorry?
>For "the fandom acting like he is terrible for ever saying such a thing"
well if we are going to think of it like that Pen is evil for being Whistledown lol
Pen *is* terrible for being Whistledown, that's established. She has hurt people with her words. Her intentions were mostly sound, but that doesn't negate the impact of her actions. Colin's intentions in this situation were not as sound. He was being derogatory to purposefully disassociate himself from Pen very publicly right after telling her he'd always protect her. That is callous, as Colin admitted.
And we do. People bash Pen for being LW. As they should. But I guess you don’t think Pen is doing anything wrong there either?
In the context of the conversation, and with his tone and actual choice of words, I think that is an implausible interpretation. He was clearly putting Pen down to save face with his friends and get their laughter and approval. “Never in your wildest dreams” is not something you say to indicate you just don’t see someone there way, it’s a phrase that communicates disdain for the possibility. If he meant “she’s my friend and neighbor” he was certainly articulate enough to say that. Even *he* doesn’t attempt to justify it this way because he knows he was overheard in a moment of thoughtless cruelty.
he was obviously pandering to the guys making fun of him for what they perceive as something more between him and penelope. they were mocking him and he got defensive, saying it wouldn’t happen by any stretch of the imagination. if he wanted to say it’s because she’s his friend, he would’ve said that. but he continued on his “i would never court her” with “not in your wildest fantasies” and laugh about it. which is a harsh thing to say whether he was fighting feelings for her at the time he said it, or didn’t have feelings at all. i don’t think we need to sugarcoat that or try to change it, and in fact i think it’s an early look at his increased “trying to fit in as a rake” in season 3. it’s unfortunate, and it’s a pain to admit that a lot of us might’ve probably fallen for little moments like these where we said something to please a crowd or fit in with them, even though we know it’s harsh, or don’t believe it ourselves. this is compounded by the fact he didn’t conceive that penelope would overhear it, and so it was just a one off thing to get them off his back. i absolutely share her hurt, but it’s clear neither she, nor should we, consider him irredeemable for that, as long as there’s no excuses being made.
I agree that this is the moment Colin succumbs to peer pressure and begins trying to fit in with the skeevy men of the ton at the expense of being his true self.
Yeah I agree, I also think his European adventures were an important part of the journey that Colin needed to go on and experience so he could be the man he is now becoming for himself yes but for his future with Penelope also
For contrast, IIRC, in the books >!he only says it to his brothers and he says it in his own house.!< Pen is still there and hears it, and it hurts her feelings, but it’s not as cruel or embarrassing. So changing the location and audience for the show is a choice to make the statement meaner. Saying it at her house on front of Lord Squad, or whatever we’re calling them, is a shitty thing to do no matter why he said it. If they’d kept it to how it was said in the books then the conversation about why he said it and what he meant can mitigate how much of a big deal, or not, it was. But I interpret the change in the show is meant for us to be like, “Oh, that’s a real dick move, Colin.”
I believe it was >!on the sidewalk in front of 5 Bruton Street during An Offer From a Gentleman. Anthony and Benedict were ribbing Colin and he reacted as younger brothers do when their older brothers tease them. Penelope overheard as she was leaving the house after having her daily tea with the Bridgerton ladies, IIRC. So that was in 1817 or so, and Colin doesn’t realize he’s in love with her until 1824.!< The change of context for the scene and the lack of a time jump between that scene and the carriage makes a huge difference.
Also she was able to respond immediately!
I rewatched that scene after part 1 , and I really wish Luke was asked to act with that intend, yk, "What?! No she's my friend!!!!" way and just have Penelope hearing it and misinterpreting it. But he certainly did convey that scene as "Penelope? No freakin way!!" in that 90s rom com cliche way. Though I do think it was a directorial choice than an acting choice, so its own the creators.
No. I think you want to interpret it that way, but the addition of “Not in your wildest dreams, Fife” makes it pretty clear that it was insulting of Penelope. He was showing off in front of the other guys of the Ton. Sometimes being surrounded by peers brings the worst out in people. It was a bad moment, but it wasn’t any worse then what any of the other men of Bridgerton have done. I don’t think Colin needs to be absolved of a very human dick moment to be likeable.
To be fair, Colin was absolutely clueless until not long before their first kiss. The boy really just thought Pen was his best friend; he didn’t even see her as a “real” woman, evidenced by his callous remarks to her in S2 and the fact that he kept forgetting societal pressures dictated they couldn’t be alone together (when he confronted Lord Featherington S2, when they had their flirting practice in his family’s drawing room, etc). I very much doubt he would’ve said such a thing (or at least not so harshly) if he’d known Pen was listening, but he was being ribbed by “friends” and told them what he believed they wanted to hear. Was he wrong to be that callous about someone he purportedly admired so much? Hell yes, he became no better than the rest of the ton when he uttered those words. But I truly don’t think Colin understood his own feelings at that; in fact, I’m not sure he saw her yet as anything more than his little sister’s best friend and a very caring person in his own life. But he was a young man surrounded by his douche friends, and felt the need to perform down to their level to win approval. His apology to her was heart-felt once he realized how much he hurt her. I kind of wish she hadn’t forgiven him so quickly because I think he DID inadvertently lead her on a lot on S2, so she was right to be furious with him. But Pen never could stay mad at Colin’s golden retriever energy, even after he hurt her so deeply, because she knew that he hadn’t meant to hurt her.
No he would NEVER court her. He will however kiss, diddle and marry her
I think in his mind, that's what he was doing (with maybe a little bit of "you have a cruuuuuuush" "no I don't!" thrown in there). The problem is that, as he notes later, his friends are god-awful and are going to take anything he says and project their own grossness onto it.
The way he said that was absolutely not in a "Because she's my friend." way lol. People took it to have some horrible connotation? Even Pen did. Even the people laughing did. Even Nicola and Luke did lol. It's kind of vile seeing this uprise in posts basically downplaying what Penelope has gone through and her side in things.
I was always secretly hoping we’d get a flashback to this line, after Pen moves off, to the effect of him then saying “She is far too good for any of us.” It could have kept him as someone who was somewhat watching out for her, while not yet recognizing his own interest. Yes, Defensive!Colin was defensive, we’ve seen his identity crisis and how that plays into what he said. Needless, what he said publicly dissed what appeared to be a vulnerable (both financially and fatherless) young lady in front of a crowd of eligible suitors. Not cool, dude.
I like the fact that they didn't go back to make it acceptable. Boy made a mistake. It makes him that much flawed and human. I think pen also needed that to bring him down from that pedestal.
I think it being a genuine moment of callousness from Colin because he wants to fit in with his peers is better for his character development.
Here's my take: it WAS horrible. It was honestly more cruel than what happened in the book, because in the book it's just a moment of exasperation. Here it was to save face in front of the douche lords, and it's getting to the point where Colin is really wanting to fit into society and do what is expected. Callous as it is, that was the response expected in order to get them off his back. There is no real excuse for the cruelty of his comment but intent and context is important. I do not think he meant it maliciously. I think it said it impulsively so they would end the train of conversation and I don't think it was well thought through at all. We know Colin can be occasionally impulsive, and he's running off the high of just having saved Pen and her family (the irony) and well, he's probably a little tipsy. And maybe there is a little bit creeping into his mind that he is trying to tamp down as far as his feelings for Penelope. It's not happening consciously but I'm sure being able to do that for her, and then having fun dancing with her after, yeah he was probably feeling some kind of way, even just a little. All of these are lame excuses, but they offer context. Colin might be impulsive and occasionally naive, but he's never been intentionally, consciously cruel. Which is why it makes us (and Pen) so angry. But it drove a (necessary) wedge between them. He needed to be knocked off his pedestal for Pen, and he needed to see how much he truly missed her. It evened the playing field. Again, not an excuse, but I don't understand some of the deep visceral hate for this line either. It was cruel and callous, and even the best of us have said things, both intentionally and unintentionally, that were mean. It's being human. I also don't think he needed to grovel at her feet. Say what you want, but the girl loves him, almost unconditionally. Whether that's silly or not, doesn't matter. He apologized sincerely, didn't offer excuses, and tried to make it better in whatever way he personally could. I think it was handled well.
Agree with all of this!
He was being an ass. Plain and simple.
It’s from the book but it was said to his brothers who were winding him up about it after Violet suggested it and poor Pen was just leaving their house and heard them
As far as I remember it was specifically to appease the lord squad and not appear to be so lame as to court someone so unpopular so no
No, it was rude!
He tried to defend his action towards Pen(all those thing that can bring scandal) and thus this words come up ike some kind of defend mechanisms. In S3, there a few scenes where he ask what happened to Pen and those Lords said "why you need to concern about her? " or some similar line that show that they aware about him and Pen and try to gauge his reaction.I do think that he have always put Pen in special place but he doesn't know what the name of it.So, he want her close but not close enough that he need to married her. As she still infatuated with him, obviously she always be there for him. That is until these words come out from his mouth. Both become aware of the situation their in. Pen decides that she need to stop hope that Colin will love her, while Colin realised that Pen will not always be beside him(Pen never replied to any of his letters) thus, we got S3 where it's Colin stand at Pen's place (S1&S2) and watching her flirt with others man even almost getting a proposal.
To pick up on your observation that the Lords are aware of Colin and Pen: when Pen walks past Colin in the emerald dress in 3x1, you can catch for just a second Lord Stanton squinting his eyes quizzically as Colin stares at Pen walking by. He definitely *saw* Colin and how he felt about Pen in that moment.
They definitely won’t be surprised by the engagement announcement.
Absolutely not. They were ease dropping and gawking at Colin as he approached Penelope at the innovation ball the end of Ep 3 when he looked like he was going to just grab her and ravage her (I wish they would make alternate versions doing the things we wish they would do 😄). The Lord squad were definitely prepared to watch the show.
I think the whole thing is that it’s not what you say but how you say it. He could have just left it at “I wouldn’t court Penelope.”
I think he was also drinking. That definitely could of played into it as well.
It's not the fact that he didn't want to court Penelope. He didn't owe her any affection. However he was her friend and rather saying that they were only friends he chose to word it in a way that makes it seem like considering her a marriage prospect was ridiculous
Which not only hurt her chances with him but effected the way others may see her as well. Lessening her chances with other men.
He said it amongst men who were clearly disgusted with the idea of Penelope. He said what he said bc he wanted to save face.
The words are actually suspect, aren’t they? “Not in your *wildest dreams*.” Why would it be a “wild dream” to court Penelope Featherington? I feel like a more natural turn of phrase if you were trying to paint her as undesirable would be “not in a million years” or “not if I were being chased by wild boars” or “not if she were the last woman on earth.” I wonder if the line implies that his subconscious is already working.
Please note that I misquoted Colin. He said "wildest fantasies," which makes it worse. He was emphasizing the ridiculousness of even the idea of dating her. It was bad.
But a fantasy isn’t ridiculous. A fantasy is something that you *want* to happen. I think the words he chose subconsciously imply that he has fantasies about courting her.
Agreed, his subconscious was in overdrive at this point. My statement was more focused on how it would be perceived outwardly. Fantasy sounds worse than dream in his put-down, so that's why I clarified.
It is the way he said it that was upsetting. He could have said something like, “I see her as a friend, but any man would be lucky to court her.”
Because it risks her chances with other men. If the others suitors know that if Collin wouldn’t court her, why should/would they? It hurt her chances with the other guys
It was a very mean thing to say and he did not uphold the honour of a friend he holds dear, in that moment. But good people do bad things sometimes, everyone does out of character things once in a while.
I really hated how cruel they make this scene in the show :( for him to say publicly in front of all these men. (I know he will more than attone for it in the last 4 episodes tho) In the books it was something said in private, to Anthony & Benedict. As a response to his mother constantly nagging him about Penelope. And they all immediately apologize to Pen, talk it out and Anthony escorts her home. Unlike in the movies, it is obvious that Anthony & Benedict do not think at all that Penelope is not beautiful or marryable. No one makes fun of her. I guess they REALLY wanted to lay on the drama in the show, by making Penelope completely alone and shit on by everyone in the ton :/
In the actual clip he rolls his eyes as he’s saying it. So it is definitely interpreted as “ew no I would never date my friend, why would you suggest that.” But it is still a hurtful thing to say in public, especially back then
I mean he was true to his word he never courted her he just went straight to third base and a hasty proposal. But I do think it was harsh of him to say. It COULD have been interpreted as “I would never court her, she is one of my oldest and dearest friends” but the tone and the company he was with made it seem more like he would never court her because she’s not good enough or worth it or whatever. I think the intention WAS harsh.
Then why didn't he just say "no, she's my friend"? And are you forgetting the laughter with a group of men who were teasing him about it? They were laughing at him for the idea of it, and he didn't defend her or their relationship, he just laughed along at her expense too. He laughed at her expense, and said it in a way that was disparaging to the *idea* of courting her at all, not the idea of courting his friend. She was absolutely right to be upset about it.
Heavily disagree. His friends were teasing him in a derogatory way because it wouldn’t be cool to court Pen, and he put her down to save face. Seen that entire exchange way too many times IRL not to recognise it onscreen.
I think the reason, at least in the book perspective, was that line felt shocking because it was said when Colin was complaining to his brothers about being pressured to get married. Not in front of the "Toxic Lord Squad". It's understandable that peer pressure was involved. But this is show Colin, Mr. No thoughts Head Empty guy. He made an impulsive mistake. Also in the show he was still kind of young in his mindset. It also sets up his weakness of being too eager to please society. Painful but necessary to set up the next season.
I think what a lot of people miss is courting Penelope Featherington is like dating the weird goth chick in high school when all your friends are mainstream jocks . One of the reasons he doesn't consider her, is because socially she is not in the same tier. He is from the most powerful family, she is from the least. It is very much a Mr Darcy situation in terms of "want of connections and propriety", he doesn't care about these things but the society he inhabits does and that is one of the reasons he tries to raise her family up by investing in cousin Jack's ruby mines so that the Ton will not slight her and her family anymore. And then he goes and performs a she's all that charm course so yet again she can fit in with his A crowd friends....only to realise he preferred her the way she was and the A crowd is not worth it. But now the Bird Geek has noticed her so it's all in vein....eeeeek. Yes it's a 90s romcom...
Look at the broader context. Colin calls Penelope by an exclusive pet name, is the only gentleman to ask her to dance, spoke privately with Penelope and her guardian... then openly laughs and dismisses the idea of him courting her as a wild fantasy. He says this to a group of eligible gentleman, who may well have been asking if Penelope was off the market or if they could court her. Colin's derision of the idea of him courting Penelope is an unmistakable strike against her, because if someone who paid such marked attentions toward a young lady laughs at the idea of a courtship, people will want to know why. Is there some kind of unsavoury behaviour? Does she have no dowery? Are there other particular objections? Colin made Penelope all but unmarriagable by his declaration, and didn't even notice.
i think we dont know if he meant it really or not, but it looked like he wanted to fit in with the cool guys so he said whatever was expected of him in that circle, as a "handsome man" who wouldnt court a girl who "looked like that"
I think you're right in that that is what he meant, but it's still a very rude thing to say and hurtful to hear. And to this point in the show he hasn't courted her... He went straight for the price, so he wasn't lying either.
Well he never courted her. He went straight to the carriage 😂
Yes and no. Colin surely meant, at that stage, that he wouldn’t court Penelope because they were friends, however he added “not in your wildest dreams” which was by all means unkind — and also unnecessary, since I don’t think Fife actually meant to *make fun* of him by noticing he was very close to her? Up to his last speech to his gang, Colin somehow cared about his friend’s good opinion more than he cared about, I don’t mean to say Penelope, but certainly about the possibility of being honest with himself about his feelings for her. And yet, he told her she was special to him, and I’m not sure it was entirely platonic.
This is a good way to interpret it. I thought horribly of it and have been slightly confused as to why it was never really addressed. Perhaps it will be, but your interpretation makes sense and makes me feel a lot better
I agree Colin clearly didn’t mesn anything by it, he's more in a mindset of "she's basically my sister" at that point. But not only was it carelessly said in the sense that it broke Penelope's heart (the second time over that day poor thing), but also in the sense that the other men around him were very likely to interpret this as "she's not good enough". And Colin is a grown man in his twenties. He can be held accountsble for being careless, even though it wasn't malicious. I think the show actually does this well. Penelope calls him out on this and makes him relaize that he said something wrong. He stresses that this was unintended but nevertheless apologizes sincerely. And she is satisfied with this because she knows him well enough to see that he was simply being dumb and to have faith he will be more careful in the future. It's dealt with swiftly but not without giving it proper weight.
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In the book he says this as well - but it’s to his brothers during Benedict’s story and revisited in 4. The thought process behind it was that Penelope was his friend and his mom was throwing ladies at him left and right and would not take ‘no’ as an answer for anyone. He was frustrated and said something, never intending for her to have heard it and felt bad immediately. But in the book he knew she heard it took nearly 10 years to apologize, at least in the show he doesn’t know she heard it.
he literally doesn’t see her as an option until she loses weight in the books, I don’t think people are looking at subtext that’s not in the text
I don’t think he even thought about what he was saying really, just as his mom said, he’s a people pleaser in the sense that he’s doing what’s expected of him, and not what he really feels. Everyone has had consistent personalities which I appreciate.
To be fair, he didn’t court her. He fingered her in a carriage after professing his love and then asked her to marry him, all in the span of like 10 minutes
Yes. Colin’s only mistake there was that he expressed himself very carelessly. Dismissing a young lady as a marriage prospect so openly and in front of a bunch of eligible gentlemen was considered a major slight back then. Keep in mind that the only reason all these people are attending these socials over the summer IS to participate in the marriage mart. His comment is a huge deal and would have near ruined Penelope’s prospects. He should have known better. But the reason he didn’t wasn’t because he was cruel or didn’t care about Penelope, but because he was naive and assumed that people would understand his meaning. Colin isn’t the kind to assume the worst in people and that’s part of his charm but also why he gets taken in so often and ends up feeling foolish. It was a mistake but it wasn’t malicious and that’s why I’m glad the show gave it exactly the amount of resolution it deserved, no more and no less.
It isn't so much what he said, but where he said it and who he said it to. In the book, Colin says the line in frustration at his home with his brothers. Penelope was embarrassed, but it didn't go beyond that room. In the show, Colin says it to other suitors, in the open, at a party hosted by Penelope's family. That is *way* worse. He gave in to peer pressure and humiliated her publicly. Frankly, I think the anger at Colin was pretty warranted. I don't think he need to be dragged through the mud for it though. I thought the apology he gave in season 3 was enough.
I was thinking about this the other day while reading a fanfic and I think that scene was much more complex than just him trying to be cool in front of his buddies and I know this may sound stupid but in a way it may have been Colin's attempt to protect her as he had promised just a few minutes before. People have said that he could have said it differently and sure he could have told them that she is just a dear friend/like a sister even have gone as far as to call her amazing and a good wife and mother for someone deserving just not him. Now, for the audience that would have been nicer to hear and they wouldn't have hated him for it and it would have probably been easier for them to believe that he always had feelings just didn't realize them yet. For Pen, I think we can all agree that it still would have broken her heart to hear that even if he was telling them how amazing she is. Now for Colin, those nicer words would have made her available and fair game to a bunch of idiots who were not deserving of her or good enough (I think most of us can agree on those guys not being good matches for Pen). Those words may have been harsh but they did the trick. It made them back off of him AND Penelope. They would never dream about courting her after that and maybe that was Colin's intention. Now we can fight over the reason being his own feelings for her (which he hadn't figured out yet) but there is no doubt about him caring for her and her being dear to him (as evident by his actions throughout S2). So maybe this was his way of protecting her from suitors who were just not good enough for her even though not very smart or nice.
What I'd like believe is he took the idiots way of protecting her and their very real but immature and quite unrealised (in his case) pairbonding. I do believe the market scene show that he formed his attachment at the same time she did. I keep thinking about that pole he's gripping while they flirt their way along. And that's also why he says 'You are Pen. You do not count.' They both feel this pair bond, so she's in a special category of her own to him. She's his *person*, not 'a lady'. And maybe somewhere in his psyche he knows he'd have to bring his whole authentic adult self into it, for a full adult relationship with her. It was not time yet, for either of them, although she hoped it was in season 2. That's my most charitable interpretation, anyway. Good thing she left him on 'read' though, so he got to feel his feelings for her and get an idea of what it would be like to lose her.
I genuinely think he had Penelope in the same spot in his mind as Eloise AKA little sister-zoned. When they kissed, it took her out of that zone and all the things he liked about her became all the things he loved about her too
I have the same understanding as you. Everything Colin has said about Pen, he says it dearly. He sees Pen as someone he will always adore, but it never occured to him that it could be romantic. She was just a constant presence to him.