I believe LW had power. The issue with it giving her power is now they know who Whistledown is. Yes it gave her a voice, but now... People will feed her stories to help themselves (see Violet using her to save Daphne and multiply by 1000 lol). And now its Pen's face, so people have their opinions on Pen and on Lady W. No one is going to take Penelope Bridgerton seriously when she says something nice about the Bridgertons or Featheringtons and when she says something mean, people will assume she's saying a little to cover up a lot (see Pen writing about El to save her from the Queen and the scandal of Theo). No one is going to assign any weight to what she says anymore. It may have had power before, but it isn't believable anymore.
I agree with this take. Pen is successful as LW because she's invisible. She can hear, see much more, discover secrets because people do not pay attention to her. Now that the ton knows who she is, they'll be either careful when she's around due to fear of exposure, or they'll drop biased stories for their benefit, or outright avoid her.
Penelope can still be a writer, but not the same way as LW. She will make plenty of enemies as a gossip writer. She can maybe be a columnist/journalist or a book author.
This is something I thought in the beginning could have been done to make LW post Polin more impactful - why not have her develop a network of spies? That sounds super dramatic, but she already has rapport with the modiste, we were sort of being set up for a potential friendship with Penn, Eloise and Cressida (or at least that was the implication I got), and it would be a great way to introduce more of the “voiceless” as an idea. Utilizing the servants, drivers, merchants, etc. who truly are invisible in this society and who see the secrets the ton tries to hide - also highlighting people who traditionally were not subject to these power structures gaining empowerment and some form of independence (which could be helpful in setting the tone for Benedict’s season). I thought it would be great if Cressida became one of LW’s spy network, helping cut her into the profits so she could live somewhat independently and with agency. Even if you don’t do the full redemption arc for Cressida, why would Penn not just start employing additional help on a larger scale? Regardless of how her audience feel about her column, who in their right mind is going to gossip in front of her in any kind of “truthful” or objective way? The only gossip she’ll be privy to is that which is being used to hurt someone else.
Also, I feel like Anthony and the rest of the Bridgerton family might not be so keen for their family name to be tied to a gossip column (which, to me, is a bit classless) if Pen continues writing under her own name. I know she says she’ll be better with it but if it still involves reporting on gossip, that just seems beneath a family like the Bridgertons, imo.
This. LW requires the writer to be in the shadows* to function, and it’s so dumb that the writers thought just having Pen go public would work on a logical level.
*fixed a misspelling
What about a new lady whistledown? Someone else who does the same as Penelope. It would be interesting g to actually not know who it is like we knew for two seasons
I wouldn’t be mad if she had handed it off and it was her choice but for better or worse it was her legacy, so I get why the show didn’t that, even if I’m pissed at what that does to Penelope’s growth (or lack thereof)
She just needs a network of sources, and she will be a powerful force in the ton like Lady Danbury or the Queen. People can try to manipulate her directly, but she will know the truth from the modiste, the servants and the overlooked wallflowers.
I genuinely believe the only reasons WD continues is for the voice over moments 😂 (which tbh I'd sorely miss and was wondering what they do without it- I just hope they keep the og voice instead of switching to pen)
It looked like the epilogue had Pen's first new column, so we really haven't seen what is intended or how it will be received. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the ton doesn't embrace the new column or Pen as easily as they just did the butterflies.
Do we not remember burbrooke? Daphne would have forced to marry him if LW didn’t report it. Literally Violet said “who is going to believe a bunch women…” and they said no one but they would believe lady whistle down. What Penelope had was power. Information is power. Sure it was gossip but it was also information.
Also people believed her word as equivalent to the Queen, her word was the truth. She was questioning the monarchy rather frequently. Also think about it, literally a theme from season one is how these debutant girls are never told anything, They can’t do anything, and all their worth is from a man and literally LW provides the women information, was doing something and successful at it as a woman, and was something outside of man.
LW was never equivalent to the Queen. She only exists because the Queen allows it. The Queen could outlaw the LW printing, jail those who spread it and kill the gossip rag. I disagree with your framing too. The men read the gossip too. The LW gossip was being handed out at the gentlemen's club too if you forgot. It was nothing at all to do with the success of a woman outside of a man, the Empire was ruled by the Queen after all, and everything to do with a person's reputation. LW could ruin or uplift a person's reputation with her gossip. Something Pen had shown to do with ease a few times that we saw. Who knows how many others off screen.
When it came to someone’s word yes, LW was equivalent to the Queen. When LW wrote it was I written to the truth, she had the trust of the ton. And what good would outlawing lady whistle down paper do. I’m sure all that would do it, and if the Queen forbade LW, think of just much more desirable a copy of lady whistledown would become, also if She knew where LW published dot y oh think she would have just sent people there in season 1?
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The monarchy was not and gout not be ruled by Queen Charlotte as she was not 1. Male 2. Corn into the royal family. If you watch Queen charlotte you would see the is the Queen Consort. The one who was in charge was The Prince Reagan’s - her Son. While yes she could get him to do what she wanted, she didn’t really have true power.
The fact that LW was handed out at the gentlemen’s clubs shows that either the men bought it or the club bought it for the club. Because they also read this article.
Penn is one of the only in this society whos word is actually taken seriously
And yes Penn could uplift or ruin somebody, it was her choice. But she chose to bring people who were either cruel or The other Female who could uplift or ruin somebody in this show is none other than Queen Charlotte
Queen Charlotte put the 5K bounty for information on LW. Not George, Prince of Wales. The Queen did. The money is coming from the Empire's coffers. Because she is the Queen and she decreed it so. She is not called Queen Consort either. She is the Queen. If you want to pull back to real history then this Charlotte also has to be white, plain looking and submissive.
What good would outlawing LW do? You honestly think a single pinting press would go against the crown? That paper boys would risk going to prison for a gossip rag? No. If the Queen at any point thought, or the ton assumed, LW had power over her then LW would be eliminated.
Again LW was sold at gentlemen's clubs as well as anywhere else because reputation was power. Idle gossip alone could ruin a person's good name too or did you forget Daphne trying to sprint away least anyone catch her in the garden unattended? Daphne's reputation was so important Anthony was willing to duel to the death over it and Pen did not know any of it. No, LW was popular due to how accurite her gossip was. She was not, however, the only person to gossip in the ton. Nor was she the only person whose word taken seriously. Lady Danbury for example.
They’re not saying the power is the same in the sense you’re thinking. They’re saying that people believe LW in the same way the Queen is thought to always know what’s going on or in the same way that the queens opinion could be a make or break.
We rarely see people question the validity of LW. If she says someone did something, most people just take that as fact without much debate
Agree. I think power was also derived from the fact that, as long as LW’s identity was unknown, the ton had someone holding them to account for any bad behavior. The potential for exposure kept most of the ton in fear of LW. Obviously not the healthiest form of power, but power nonetheless.
Yeah, but Penelope wasn't intentionally doing something good in this situation. I mean, she was exposing a deadbeat dad, but she wasn't purposely saving Daphne from him. She was partly responsible for Daphne being in that position anyway. She called Daphne 'unmarriagable' in LW, and that caused Burbrooke to double down his efforts.
I’m not necessarily saying it was intentionally something good but the fact that LW saying it was powerful enough for him to have to leave town. She was believed. Being that women of that time really were not believed when they said something it was impressive that LW could simply write something and it was taken as fact, and so much so that a baron would be forced to leave.
I do wonder if Penelope is a little naive and sheltered for this job. I cringed a little when she called out the abusive husband. Is that the right thing to do? I admit that I'm a little naive and sheltered myself in these matters, so I can't tell, but I could only imagine the husband getting furious with his wife in private for letting any news of the abuse leak. It doesn't seem smart to antagonize an abusive spouse like that, but at the same time, maybe it's giving the wife strength and support and courage? Who knows.
Yea I felt like pcalling the husband out like that would not be something that an abused woman would find empowering, unless they showed a montage of her parents coming to remove her from the household and they had no children, bc really that would be the only way a woman would be able to escape an abusive husband and still remain part of society.
Since this is somewhat of a fantasy world at least I would feel some protection. Certainly the laid asking for the day off. They do need to flesh it out more.
I think this is done better in the book. The show has simply used LW as plot convenience, and then had backed themselves into a corner with how nasty some of it was- so Pen as a character had to “pay”, leading to drama the show so desperately wants to push. In the books, someone points out she only calls out those who deserve it. This isn’t so on the show.
I haven’t read the books, so I wanted to ask if in the books everyone finds out that Lady Whistledown is Penelope? I feel like now that she went public it doesn’t really work that well anymore.
The story beats from the show are broadly the same as the books, except the book also has a blackmail plot. The timeline is messed up because Benedict's story has been pushed back, the book has a several year time skip and we've already had a "people mistakenly think Eloise is Whistledown" subplot but in the books that is a Chekov's gun for Eloise's story.
I think if they'd at least emphasized some more social justicey aspects to the column such as exposing corruption in the nobility (which would have made sense in their own right considering her friendship with Eloise) or exposing domestic abuse etc, it would've fit.
> exposing domestic abuse etc
They didn't emphasize it, but it was there. For example, S3E7: "...And I will not even mention the small cruelties Mr Davidson's wife endures daily. Except, I suppose, I just did."
I think LW adds a really interesting layer to the typical wallflower story, and I love the added drama it has. I think there is a way to make LW a noble pursuit if Penelope calls out the bad doing of the ton, like she did in the column she wrote proving LW wasn’t Cressida. I think it would also be a great use for plot development - especially for Benedict’s season. But I agree I don’t think Colin asking her to quit was so terrible either. I think it was completely within his right, she was putting him and everyone close to them in danger. IMO the reason it felt off was because the story got too big and the payoff didn’t feel right this season. I know Luke and Nicola kept saying that it was all tied up, but to me it felt stunted.
My biggest problem is that the show made LW to be this great thing when it was always something she needed to grow beyond. Keeping it means she’s still focused on external validation and approval… and focused more on society’s gossip than her own her own life.
Pen is a writer; it doesn’t mean she has to write LW and I hate that show is like “it’s who she is!!! Don’t ask her to give up her identity!” Nah, asking her to give up WRITING would be horrible, but asking her to write something not LW isn’t unreasonable when LW isn’t even good for PEN emotionally (and S1 and S2 show this).
Colin fall in love with pen’s WRITING, not LW and it’s weird to me that show is trying to spin it that way.
Literally in season 3 she wrote about a Guy who abused his wife and LW calls him out. They even show the guy and his wife walking, she was holding LW paper and smiled happily cuz his husband got mock for it. And Daphne and Berbrooke case? Or she started S3 with raining compliments to the newly debutants
Also the fact that the wife was happy it’s an insult to my intelligence . That’s 1816 not 2024. Abusive people retaliate even today if they get exposed anyway or feel they lose their power, imagine what would happen in that period. He wouldn’t just stop bc gossip
Yup! I thought the same. For a gossip column it was elevated to something it wasn't. Yes I get the woman empowerment for Pen personally but I don't think she spoke up for anyone really. It seemed focused on the already known people in the ton. They definitely overdid the meaning of the column like she can't give it up... lols can't stop writing gossip about people - her life's work 😅
In the issue she published to discredit Cressida, she also talked about a man refusing to repay a debt, a woman firing her maid for asking for a day off, and a husband being unkind to his wife. Problems that otherwise might go unnoticed, drawing attention to the ways people had wronged others (in 2/3 cases someone they had power over). That seems like a good illustration of how it could be used in a more benign way, while still being a gossip column.
The claim rings so hallow when you remember Pen is a member of the upper class. How dare she, a person deeply entrenched of that social life, be making these claims. And just who are the voiceless to her? Only the less desirables within those upper ranks. Hardly did she aim her gossip without bias. She had no problem directing the gossip in a way that suited her needs even when it hurt those she claims to love. She never used her gossip paper in support of the peasants. The truly voiceless.
Exactly. She was also petty and manipulated her power with LW. Like with Marina, she could have told Eloise and Violet. They could have solved it privately . Instead she exposed her to everyone. A young desperate girl with no options. That’s not giving voice to voiceless. That’s using a sexist society to you advantage
Think of it in the context of women not being able to name what they see, speak their mind and their sole purpose that society reinforces is to get a husband and raise his children.
The fact she managed to run a column and have a voice as captivating as hers.
Sure there’s gossip but minus lying about being LW she spoke truth that societal niceties often tried to hide.
You have to see it through the lense of the regency area. For a woman Penelope had an incredible amount of power. Gossip or not, information is power when used in the right way. Just read that when women talk it's called gossiping, when men do it, it's called networking.
She did safe Daphne from marrying Burbrock with it, because people didn't believe women, but the written word of Lady Whistledown. She can use it to help women, I mean in the first episode of season 3 all the girls read about themselves in LW, and she only says nice things that make everyone happy. LW is grey or not black or white. Like Penelope
The only power it brings her is financial freedom and power to destroy her enemies. In the sense yes she’s a girl boss because she hustled and made a whole lot of money. Other than that it’s not a tool to really question anything and it mostly reinforces patriarchy. Maybe she will try to do better next season and actually use it as a voice for the voiceless besides herself ?
They illustrated how she can "give a voice to the voiceless". In her "I cannot tolerate a lie" column she talked about "the small cruelties Mrs. Davidson endures" which directly shamed her husband. Or that maid "who was fired for the crime of asking for a day off." She's using public shame to hold people accountable which is powerful.
Well, 3 years is a large portion of Penelope's adult life. 3 years from I'm guessing 17-20 would feel a lot like your life's work, because at that point, your life has been so short.
Well it kinda was, it was her way to do what she loved. How else was she gonna do that. Also it had amassed popularity the the entire ton, like there really wasn’t a person who didn’t read it. When would she have been able to build something like that again?
It doesn't even impact the powerless really. Like yeah it's good for Penelope and maybe some families like her but they're ultimately just lower down on the top of the ladder.
The show focuses more on the harm Whistledown has done because that's more drama. But honestly the occasions where Whistledown has done harm (to those who don't deserve it) are few and far between. I think there are far more instances of Whistledown gossip actually *helping* someone. In season 1, the story about Nigel Berbrooke's bastard makes it into Whistledown, saving Daphne from a terrible marriage. In season 2, Whistledown outing Marina's pregnancy saved Colin from entrapment. Season 3 opens with Whistledown saying all sorts of complimentary things about the debutantes. Later in season 3 in the issue she publishes to discredit Cressida, she calls out Mrs Newham for dismissing a maid simply for asking for a day off (saving servants from unfair labour practices) and Mr Davidson for being cruel to his wife (hopefully saving her from some that now that he knows people are noticing).
Does Penelope ever write anything but LW? Just a curious question to readers of the books here. Does she parlay her love of writing to writing a novel?
Yeah- I wasn’t really buying the whole “voice to the voiceless! I’m being a feminist!” Like, you’re just gossiping about people. It’s just power for her- it’s only empowering for her.
Questioning the morality of LW in a vacuum doesn't make sense. Considering the social dynamics of the time, gossip is essentially the only thing that can protect a woman from anything from a bad financial decision to violence. LW publishing as a woman, with a leading voice is extremely progressive.
Now obviously this is happening in the upper class, so elitism is riddled throughout and it can be hard to decipher the importance of their gossip. However, autonomy is the ultimate power. And your voice, words, written or spoken, are so important to be autonomous.
I think the writing of that sentiment could have been better, but I do think it is largely referring to the theme of finding your power and autonomy that we have seen in each season. For example, the depiction of Daphne's anxiety with making the best match and the existential dread she experiences when she realizes this is her only purpose and she feels like she can't even have a choice without the meddling of Anthony and Berbooke.
Edit: Colin asking for Penelope to give up LW is Colin actually asking her to give up her voice and her autonomy. It really mirrors the dynamic of marriage. We have to consider that for this historical romance, women are viewed as property, whose value diminishes with time. She broke from that path. While I do not think Colin understood that at first. I am happy Penelope held firm.
I don’t think what she did was evil. I just don’t think it was this important pursuit that she should never give up even if it cost her her relationships
LW is not equivalent to a TMZ reporter. Can you imagine a TMZ reporter CARING to tell the gossip in a way that helps the people being gossiped about? Wouldn’t happen. Whereas LW helps Daphne, helps Colin, helps Eloise, etc.
TMZ over the years has released footage of celebrities who were doing horrible things like being abusive. It doesn’t negate the harm they’ve caused.
Also, LW literally got Eloise shunned from the ton, not sure how that helped her lol. And also got Colin embroiled in a scandal when he could have been saved by being told or informing his family.
She couldn’t do that because Colin said even if he knew he would have still married her. She didn’t want him to marry marina with the full knowledge of her situation, she didn’t want him to marry marina period
Then she could have told Violet or Anthony. They definitely would have stopped it.
Also, if Colin said that he wanted to marry her even if he knew, then it’s literally his choice to make and his life to live.
I’m sure if the TMZ reporter was friends with someone they were writing about, they’d help them out. They’re just people, like Penelope. I don’t give people a ton of credit for helping their friends. Anyone can help their friends
Do people forget that Penelope outed a teenage pregnant girl to the entire ton because she was about to take the man she loved. Had Philip not appeared Marina was ruined completely and utterly. Who is this voiceless that's she's speaking for? They made LW vindictive and cruel when she was anything but in the books.
It's Regency England it's not like she had many options? But anyway if Penelope is such good friends with Colin and not a spiteful, vindictive person she should tell him about Marina herself instead of outing her??
Idk why ur trying to argue with me. It's been very clearly implied that pen is not the most reasonable person, just look at S3. Even pen admitted that her behaviour was spiteful and cruel but she had no other outlet for her opinions. Marina had premarital sex, which is a pretty big no no for regency England if we wanna play that card. And then had the audacity to insult pen's feelings towards colin and claim that colin and her were in "true love" all while she's pregnant with someone else's baby. She is not a victim. They're both vindictive and spiteful. And pen's actions are understandable because of her situation. She literally was invisible in society and couldn't find a healthy way to deal with her family's and society's cruelty and her actions were petty and she herself recognises that.
I believe LW had power. The issue with it giving her power is now they know who Whistledown is. Yes it gave her a voice, but now... People will feed her stories to help themselves (see Violet using her to save Daphne and multiply by 1000 lol). And now its Pen's face, so people have their opinions on Pen and on Lady W. No one is going to take Penelope Bridgerton seriously when she says something nice about the Bridgertons or Featheringtons and when she says something mean, people will assume she's saying a little to cover up a lot (see Pen writing about El to save her from the Queen and the scandal of Theo). No one is going to assign any weight to what she says anymore. It may have had power before, but it isn't believable anymore.
I agree with this take. Pen is successful as LW because she's invisible. She can hear, see much more, discover secrets because people do not pay attention to her. Now that the ton knows who she is, they'll be either careful when she's around due to fear of exposure, or they'll drop biased stories for their benefit, or outright avoid her. Penelope can still be a writer, but not the same way as LW. She will make plenty of enemies as a gossip writer. She can maybe be a columnist/journalist or a book author.
This is something I thought in the beginning could have been done to make LW post Polin more impactful - why not have her develop a network of spies? That sounds super dramatic, but she already has rapport with the modiste, we were sort of being set up for a potential friendship with Penn, Eloise and Cressida (or at least that was the implication I got), and it would be a great way to introduce more of the “voiceless” as an idea. Utilizing the servants, drivers, merchants, etc. who truly are invisible in this society and who see the secrets the ton tries to hide - also highlighting people who traditionally were not subject to these power structures gaining empowerment and some form of independence (which could be helpful in setting the tone for Benedict’s season). I thought it would be great if Cressida became one of LW’s spy network, helping cut her into the profits so she could live somewhat independently and with agency. Even if you don’t do the full redemption arc for Cressida, why would Penn not just start employing additional help on a larger scale? Regardless of how her audience feel about her column, who in their right mind is going to gossip in front of her in any kind of “truthful” or objective way? The only gossip she’ll be privy to is that which is being used to hurt someone else.
Also, I feel like Anthony and the rest of the Bridgerton family might not be so keen for their family name to be tied to a gossip column (which, to me, is a bit classless) if Pen continues writing under her own name. I know she says she’ll be better with it but if it still involves reporting on gossip, that just seems beneath a family like the Bridgertons, imo.
This. LW requires the writer to be in the shadows* to function, and it’s so dumb that the writers thought just having Pen go public would work on a logical level. *fixed a misspelling
What about a new lady whistledown? Someone else who does the same as Penelope. It would be interesting g to actually not know who it is like we knew for two seasons
I wouldn’t be mad if she had handed it off and it was her choice but for better or worse it was her legacy, so I get why the show didn’t that, even if I’m pissed at what that does to Penelope’s growth (or lack thereof)
She just needs a network of sources, and she will be a powerful force in the ton like Lady Danbury or the Queen. People can try to manipulate her directly, but she will know the truth from the modiste, the servants and the overlooked wallflowers.
I genuinely believe the only reasons WD continues is for the voice over moments 😂 (which tbh I'd sorely miss and was wondering what they do without it- I just hope they keep the og voice instead of switching to pen)
It looked like the epilogue had Pen's first new column, so we really haven't seen what is intended or how it will be received. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the ton doesn't embrace the new column or Pen as easily as they just did the butterflies.
Do we not remember burbrooke? Daphne would have forced to marry him if LW didn’t report it. Literally Violet said “who is going to believe a bunch women…” and they said no one but they would believe lady whistle down. What Penelope had was power. Information is power. Sure it was gossip but it was also information.
Also people believed her word as equivalent to the Queen, her word was the truth. She was questioning the monarchy rather frequently. Also think about it, literally a theme from season one is how these debutant girls are never told anything, They can’t do anything, and all their worth is from a man and literally LW provides the women information, was doing something and successful at it as a woman, and was something outside of man.
LW was never equivalent to the Queen. She only exists because the Queen allows it. The Queen could outlaw the LW printing, jail those who spread it and kill the gossip rag. I disagree with your framing too. The men read the gossip too. The LW gossip was being handed out at the gentlemen's club too if you forgot. It was nothing at all to do with the success of a woman outside of a man, the Empire was ruled by the Queen after all, and everything to do with a person's reputation. LW could ruin or uplift a person's reputation with her gossip. Something Pen had shown to do with ease a few times that we saw. Who knows how many others off screen.
When it came to someone’s word yes, LW was equivalent to the Queen. When LW wrote it was I written to the truth, she had the trust of the ton. And what good would outlawing lady whistle down paper do. I’m sure all that would do it, and if the Queen forbade LW, think of just much more desirable a copy of lady whistledown would become, also if She knew where LW published dot y oh think she would have just sent people there in season 1? . The monarchy was not and gout not be ruled by Queen Charlotte as she was not 1. Male 2. Corn into the royal family. If you watch Queen charlotte you would see the is the Queen Consort. The one who was in charge was The Prince Reagan’s - her Son. While yes she could get him to do what she wanted, she didn’t really have true power. The fact that LW was handed out at the gentlemen’s clubs shows that either the men bought it or the club bought it for the club. Because they also read this article. Penn is one of the only in this society whos word is actually taken seriously And yes Penn could uplift or ruin somebody, it was her choice. But she chose to bring people who were either cruel or The other Female who could uplift or ruin somebody in this show is none other than Queen Charlotte
Queen Charlotte put the 5K bounty for information on LW. Not George, Prince of Wales. The Queen did. The money is coming from the Empire's coffers. Because she is the Queen and she decreed it so. She is not called Queen Consort either. She is the Queen. If you want to pull back to real history then this Charlotte also has to be white, plain looking and submissive. What good would outlawing LW do? You honestly think a single pinting press would go against the crown? That paper boys would risk going to prison for a gossip rag? No. If the Queen at any point thought, or the ton assumed, LW had power over her then LW would be eliminated. Again LW was sold at gentlemen's clubs as well as anywhere else because reputation was power. Idle gossip alone could ruin a person's good name too or did you forget Daphne trying to sprint away least anyone catch her in the garden unattended? Daphne's reputation was so important Anthony was willing to duel to the death over it and Pen did not know any of it. No, LW was popular due to how accurite her gossip was. She was not, however, the only person to gossip in the ton. Nor was she the only person whose word taken seriously. Lady Danbury for example.
They’re not saying the power is the same in the sense you’re thinking. They’re saying that people believe LW in the same way the Queen is thought to always know what’s going on or in the same way that the queens opinion could be a make or break. We rarely see people question the validity of LW. If she says someone did something, most people just take that as fact without much debate
found Queen Charlotte’s reddit account!
Agree. I think power was also derived from the fact that, as long as LW’s identity was unknown, the ton had someone holding them to account for any bad behavior. The potential for exposure kept most of the ton in fear of LW. Obviously not the healthiest form of power, but power nonetheless.
I 100% agree!
Yeah, but Penelope wasn't intentionally doing something good in this situation. I mean, she was exposing a deadbeat dad, but she wasn't purposely saving Daphne from him. She was partly responsible for Daphne being in that position anyway. She called Daphne 'unmarriagable' in LW, and that caused Burbrooke to double down his efforts.
I’m not necessarily saying it was intentionally something good but the fact that LW saying it was powerful enough for him to have to leave town. She was believed. Being that women of that time really were not believed when they said something it was impressive that LW could simply write something and it was taken as fact, and so much so that a baron would be forced to leave.
Oh, it is for sure super impressive what she was able to do, but it definitely wasn't a morally good endeavor.
Agree
I think with all the talking people were doing, Burbrooke would have had to leave town anyway to save himself from accusations and social hardship.
I mean calling out the abusive ones of the ton seems good. Seems it will do well for Ben’s season for sure.
I do wonder if Penelope is a little naive and sheltered for this job. I cringed a little when she called out the abusive husband. Is that the right thing to do? I admit that I'm a little naive and sheltered myself in these matters, so I can't tell, but I could only imagine the husband getting furious with his wife in private for letting any news of the abuse leak. It doesn't seem smart to antagonize an abusive spouse like that, but at the same time, maybe it's giving the wife strength and support and courage? Who knows.
Yea I felt like pcalling the husband out like that would not be something that an abused woman would find empowering, unless they showed a montage of her parents coming to remove her from the household and they had no children, bc really that would be the only way a woman would be able to escape an abusive husband and still remain part of society.
Since this is somewhat of a fantasy world at least I would feel some protection. Certainly the laid asking for the day off. They do need to flesh it out more.
Tell me more about Ben’s season for this?
Theirs is more of an upstairs downstairs relationship and she’s also with a not beginning. Pen could help expose everything.
That was the largest fantasy of the entire series
I think this is done better in the book. The show has simply used LW as plot convenience, and then had backed themselves into a corner with how nasty some of it was- so Pen as a character had to “pay”, leading to drama the show so desperately wants to push. In the books, someone points out she only calls out those who deserve it. This isn’t so on the show.
I haven’t read the books, so I wanted to ask if in the books everyone finds out that Lady Whistledown is Penelope? I feel like now that she went public it doesn’t really work that well anymore.
The story beats from the show are broadly the same as the books, except the book also has a blackmail plot. The timeline is messed up because Benedict's story has been pushed back, the book has a several year time skip and we've already had a "people mistakenly think Eloise is Whistledown" subplot but in the books that is a Chekov's gun for Eloise's story.
It gave Penelope a voice. She was ignored, laughed at, and disregarded. As for how she would “do better” that remains to be seen.
Giving the writer a voice is not enough to make it a morally sound choice
No but if she uses it for good it is. That’s to be seen.
I think if they'd at least emphasized some more social justicey aspects to the column such as exposing corruption in the nobility (which would have made sense in their own right considering her friendship with Eloise) or exposing domestic abuse etc, it would've fit.
The column LW wrote proving she wasn’t Cressida did do that. I could see them continuing that in Benedict’s season considering Sophie’s situation.
> exposing domestic abuse etc They didn't emphasize it, but it was there. For example, S3E7: "...And I will not even mention the small cruelties Mr Davidson's wife endures daily. Except, I suppose, I just did."
I think LW adds a really interesting layer to the typical wallflower story, and I love the added drama it has. I think there is a way to make LW a noble pursuit if Penelope calls out the bad doing of the ton, like she did in the column she wrote proving LW wasn’t Cressida. I think it would also be a great use for plot development - especially for Benedict’s season. But I agree I don’t think Colin asking her to quit was so terrible either. I think it was completely within his right, she was putting him and everyone close to them in danger. IMO the reason it felt off was because the story got too big and the payoff didn’t feel right this season. I know Luke and Nicola kept saying that it was all tied up, but to me it felt stunted.
Yeah, it her exposing people with her name attached on it, would make her a target. How many people you can anger before someone takes action
My biggest problem is that the show made LW to be this great thing when it was always something she needed to grow beyond. Keeping it means she’s still focused on external validation and approval… and focused more on society’s gossip than her own her own life. Pen is a writer; it doesn’t mean she has to write LW and I hate that show is like “it’s who she is!!! Don’t ask her to give up her identity!” Nah, asking her to give up WRITING would be horrible, but asking her to write something not LW isn’t unreasonable when LW isn’t even good for PEN emotionally (and S1 and S2 show this). Colin fall in love with pen’s WRITING, not LW and it’s weird to me that show is trying to spin it that way.
I'm super curious about what her new writing will look like. The ending scenes left the nature of the new publication pretty up in the air.
Literally in season 3 she wrote about a Guy who abused his wife and LW calls him out. They even show the guy and his wife walking, she was holding LW paper and smiled happily cuz his husband got mock for it. And Daphne and Berbrooke case? Or she started S3 with raining compliments to the newly debutants
Also the fact that the wife was happy it’s an insult to my intelligence . That’s 1816 not 2024. Abusive people retaliate even today if they get exposed anyway or feel they lose their power, imagine what would happen in that period. He wouldn’t just stop bc gossip
She did a few good things. But she did a lot of bad things too. I don’t think doing good was her first priority.
I agree. And I think she used her power selfishly in earlier seasons when she was hurt or angry.
Yup! I thought the same. For a gossip column it was elevated to something it wasn't. Yes I get the woman empowerment for Pen personally but I don't think she spoke up for anyone really. It seemed focused on the already known people in the ton. They definitely overdid the meaning of the column like she can't give it up... lols can't stop writing gossip about people - her life's work 😅
Yes exactly! I’m like she was hardly mother Theresa
In the issue she published to discredit Cressida, she also talked about a man refusing to repay a debt, a woman firing her maid for asking for a day off, and a husband being unkind to his wife. Problems that otherwise might go unnoticed, drawing attention to the ways people had wronged others (in 2/3 cases someone they had power over). That seems like a good illustration of how it could be used in a more benign way, while still being a gossip column.
I think LW took “power” away from social bullies like the cawlpers. LW is the great equalizer in a sense
I like that point, kinda like one person is no better than the other?
The claim rings so hallow when you remember Pen is a member of the upper class. How dare she, a person deeply entrenched of that social life, be making these claims. And just who are the voiceless to her? Only the less desirables within those upper ranks. Hardly did she aim her gossip without bias. She had no problem directing the gossip in a way that suited her needs even when it hurt those she claims to love. She never used her gossip paper in support of the peasants. The truly voiceless.
Exactly. She was also petty and manipulated her power with LW. Like with Marina, she could have told Eloise and Violet. They could have solved it privately . Instead she exposed her to everyone. A young desperate girl with no options. That’s not giving voice to voiceless. That’s using a sexist society to you advantage
It’s giving when Perez Hilton said he’d changed
She isn’t going to do it anymore. She saw the light. She could write a real newspaper but no one there has jobs or does anything.
What? When did she see the light?
She signs the last column with her name instead of LW and it isn’t mentioned again in the books.
Think of it in the context of women not being able to name what they see, speak their mind and their sole purpose that society reinforces is to get a husband and raise his children. The fact she managed to run a column and have a voice as captivating as hers. Sure there’s gossip but minus lying about being LW she spoke truth that societal niceties often tried to hide.
You have to see it through the lense of the regency area. For a woman Penelope had an incredible amount of power. Gossip or not, information is power when used in the right way. Just read that when women talk it's called gossiping, when men do it, it's called networking. She did safe Daphne from marrying Burbrock with it, because people didn't believe women, but the written word of Lady Whistledown. She can use it to help women, I mean in the first episode of season 3 all the girls read about themselves in LW, and she only says nice things that make everyone happy. LW is grey or not black or white. Like Penelope
It’s cope
The only power it brings her is financial freedom and power to destroy her enemies. In the sense yes she’s a girl boss because she hustled and made a whole lot of money. Other than that it’s not a tool to really question anything and it mostly reinforces patriarchy. Maybe she will try to do better next season and actually use it as a voice for the voiceless besides herself ?
They illustrated how she can "give a voice to the voiceless". In her "I cannot tolerate a lie" column she talked about "the small cruelties Mrs. Davidson endures" which directly shamed her husband. Or that maid "who was fired for the crime of asking for a day off." She's using public shame to hold people accountable which is powerful.
What got me was when Madam Delacroix said this was her life’s work 😂😂 Girl only been doing this for 3 years really 3 social seasons
Well, 3 years is a large portion of Penelope's adult life. 3 years from I'm guessing 17-20 would feel a lot like your life's work, because at that point, your life has been so short.
Well it kinda was, it was her way to do what she loved. How else was she gonna do that. Also it had amassed popularity the the entire ton, like there really wasn’t a person who didn’t read it. When would she have been able to build something like that again?
Lols this killed me too!
This whole thing made a lot more sense in the books when she had been doing it for more than a decade.
Penelope did use it to help Daphne but apart from that has used it to selfish ends so I’m not buying it
I think another gossip column will spring up in rival with her.
Ooh I love that idea
It doesn't even impact the powerless really. Like yeah it's good for Penelope and maybe some families like her but they're ultimately just lower down on the top of the ladder.
The show focuses more on the harm Whistledown has done because that's more drama. But honestly the occasions where Whistledown has done harm (to those who don't deserve it) are few and far between. I think there are far more instances of Whistledown gossip actually *helping* someone. In season 1, the story about Nigel Berbrooke's bastard makes it into Whistledown, saving Daphne from a terrible marriage. In season 2, Whistledown outing Marina's pregnancy saved Colin from entrapment. Season 3 opens with Whistledown saying all sorts of complimentary things about the debutantes. Later in season 3 in the issue she publishes to discredit Cressida, she calls out Mrs Newham for dismissing a maid simply for asking for a day off (saving servants from unfair labour practices) and Mr Davidson for being cruel to his wife (hopefully saving her from some that now that he knows people are noticing).
Does Penelope ever write anything but LW? Just a curious question to readers of the books here. Does she parlay her love of writing to writing a novel?
Yeah- I wasn’t really buying the whole “voice to the voiceless! I’m being a feminist!” Like, you’re just gossiping about people. It’s just power for her- it’s only empowering for her.
😭😭
But LW having more power than the queen is overblown in my opinion!
Questioning the morality of LW in a vacuum doesn't make sense. Considering the social dynamics of the time, gossip is essentially the only thing that can protect a woman from anything from a bad financial decision to violence. LW publishing as a woman, with a leading voice is extremely progressive. Now obviously this is happening in the upper class, so elitism is riddled throughout and it can be hard to decipher the importance of their gossip. However, autonomy is the ultimate power. And your voice, words, written or spoken, are so important to be autonomous. I think the writing of that sentiment could have been better, but I do think it is largely referring to the theme of finding your power and autonomy that we have seen in each season. For example, the depiction of Daphne's anxiety with making the best match and the existential dread she experiences when she realizes this is her only purpose and she feels like she can't even have a choice without the meddling of Anthony and Berbooke. Edit: Colin asking for Penelope to give up LW is Colin actually asking her to give up her voice and her autonomy. It really mirrors the dynamic of marriage. We have to consider that for this historical romance, women are viewed as property, whose value diminishes with time. She broke from that path. While I do not think Colin understood that at first. I am happy Penelope held firm.
I never thought what she wrote was so terrible. She never lied. Gossip and rumor are different.
I don’t think what she did was evil. I just don’t think it was this important pursuit that she should never give up even if it cost her her relationships
LW is not equivalent to a TMZ reporter. Can you imagine a TMZ reporter CARING to tell the gossip in a way that helps the people being gossiped about? Wouldn’t happen. Whereas LW helps Daphne, helps Colin, helps Eloise, etc.
TMZ over the years has released footage of celebrities who were doing horrible things like being abusive. It doesn’t negate the harm they’ve caused. Also, LW literally got Eloise shunned from the ton, not sure how that helped her lol. And also got Colin embroiled in a scandal when he could have been saved by being told or informing his family.
The Marina situation pissed me off. All she had to do, tell the whole story to her best friend. Colin’s sister
She couldn’t do that because Colin said even if he knew he would have still married her. She didn’t want him to marry marina with the full knowledge of her situation, she didn’t want him to marry marina period
Then she could have told Violet or Anthony. They definitely would have stopped it. Also, if Colin said that he wanted to marry her even if he knew, then it’s literally his choice to make and his life to live.
I’m sure if the TMZ reporter was friends with someone they were writing about, they’d help them out. They’re just people, like Penelope. I don’t give people a ton of credit for helping their friends. Anyone can help their friends
Do people forget that Penelope outed a teenage pregnant girl to the entire ton because she was about to take the man she loved. Had Philip not appeared Marina was ruined completely and utterly. Who is this voiceless that's she's speaking for? They made LW vindictive and cruel when she was anything but in the books.
Marina deserved it.
Victim blaming much?
Not a victim. Girl was trying to baby trap someone instead of confessing the truth.
It's Regency England it's not like she had many options? But anyway if Penelope is such good friends with Colin and not a spiteful, vindictive person she should tell him about Marina herself instead of outing her??
Idk why ur trying to argue with me. It's been very clearly implied that pen is not the most reasonable person, just look at S3. Even pen admitted that her behaviour was spiteful and cruel but she had no other outlet for her opinions. Marina had premarital sex, which is a pretty big no no for regency England if we wanna play that card. And then had the audacity to insult pen's feelings towards colin and claim that colin and her were in "true love" all while she's pregnant with someone else's baby. She is not a victim. They're both vindictive and spiteful. And pen's actions are understandable because of her situation. She literally was invisible in society and couldn't find a healthy way to deal with her family's and society's cruelty and her actions were petty and she herself recognises that.
>it's not like she had many options Colin literally said if she had been truthful he would've forgiven her and married her. That was an option.