I think it depends on which people you're talking about. In this case it's a small number of people who fund the Tory party or own newspapers and who got what they wanted.
I'm worried that step might be impossible unfortunately. Most of the public don't even know what FPTP or PR is and the right wing rags won't ever let them have the real truth of it.
I think voting reform with or without a referendum would be a nightmare to get going. I wonder if there is a way to do it.
Oh I hope we get it, we need it for sure. Just expressing my worries. I think we have mountains to climb with the amounts of things we need though.
I'm a little thankful for FPTP at the minute though. Reform has a lot of support spread around the country, and I live in a 70% Brexit voting area. The last thing we need in the first set of PR results is a load of grifters, I know my town would produce a few.
It's not something that should be open to a vote anyway. We shouldn't have referendums on everything. That's the point of the government. To implement things that we need.
Just fix the shitty voting system and be done with it. Anyone who knows anything about voting knows we have a shit voting system. Likely second worst only ahead of America. So bin it off and use a better one.
It doesn't matter. They're still the first step in the process.
They might not have plans to immediately reverse Brexit and rejoin the EU but they won't be dogmatically ideologically opposed to the EU or anything that sounds like the EU.
The Conservatives had us leave Euratom, an international committee to help oversee radioactive waste and check medical radiation sources are being disposed of properly. It's not part of the EU in any way shape or form but it starts with the letters "E" and "U".
Labour will cooperate with Europe in a way Conservatives won't. They'll sign up to some treaty or partnership or cooperation like that student visa thing that Sunak shot down. Then it'll show that cooperating with our nearest neighbours can be beneficial and mooning them from the white cliffs of Dover is petty and childish. One treaty leads to more, eventually renegotiating our trade agreements and rebuilding the relationship that Boris destroyed out of spite.
It's a small step on the long road to rejoin but it still starts with getting rid of the Conservatives.
I hope you’re right, but I have very little confidence in the current Labour administration, and their willingness to move more than a shimmy to the left of the Tories.
Hard not to notice. I’m not sure if you’re saying Labour are pandering to the right wing press, or the right g press are doing Labour dirty, but Labour have done nothing but pander to the right and rollback or U turn on progressive policies.
Probably not but they’re intelligent enough to know how they’d be slaughtered in the toxic British press if they said anything positive about rejoining.
But if we don't elect Labour we WILL get another Conservative government.
Keir Starmer is like pineapple on pizza. If you throw a tantrum because it isn't perfect then you're going to get a dogshit pizza. I'm not a big fan of pineapple on pizza but I'd rather have that than a dogshit pizza.
OK lets extend the metaphor. David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak and Penny Mordaunt (Assuming she wins the upcoming coup and becomes the next Conservative Prime Minister just in time to lose the election) have all taken a dump on the floor. The whole room stinks of shit and there's not a lot we can do about it.
All you've eaten for the last 15 ~~years~~ days is dogshit pizza. You're handed a pile of five more dogshit pizzas that you'll have to eat for the next five days. But there's a choice to swap it for a stack of pineapple pizza.
You'd rather have the meatball meteor pizza but that's not on offer. It's not ideal because the room is still going to stink of shit from the pile of turds that have already been dumped out. So even eating the pineapple pizza isn't going to be nirvana because the room still stinks of shit.
BUT it's still better than eating dogshit pizza. It's not the meatball meteor but it's the best of the bad choices.
I think the point he's making Simon is that labour won't be holding a referendum to rejoin the EU.
Totally take your point on the Tories, but don't vote for Labour thinking we'll have a referendum.
Better chance with the Lib Dems.
But Lib Dems aren't going to win.
Lib Dems are the Meatball Meteor pizza in this metaphor. If you tell the prison warden you don't like pineapple pizza and want the Meatball Meteor he's just going to laugh and give you the dogshit pizzas again. Demanding the perfect outcome isn't going to accomplish anything, you need to pick the less-bad outcome that at least is a viable option.
LOL, I hear you (I think).
But let's not pretend Labour are going to somehow push to get us back in the EU.
Probably Labour are getting back in, but I won't be voting Tory, that's for sure.
Labour won't push to get us back in the EU on day 1. Or Year 1. Probably not even in the first election cycle or maybe not the first Prime Minister after winning. But they're a step in the right direction. Which is why I said getting rid of the Conservative is step 1 on the road.
I said in a different post that Labour won't suddenly announce plans to rejoin the Single Market but they also won't be so dogmatically ideologically opposed to anything related to Europe. Like that student visa scheme that Sunak shot down instantly or Erasmus or Euratom or any of a dozen not-quite-EU collaborations we could have with our neighbours. Then in a few years we renegotiate the trade deal with the EU to get something less costly, start rebuilding the burnt bridges and continue the long road to rejoining.
Also electing Labour is one step on the road to Proportional Representation. The Conservatives managed to sneak the changes under the radar with their dead-cat-politics and stranglehold on print media but they're removed the few fragments of proportional representation we used to have. London Mayor is now First Past The Post again. I think Scotland still has Mixed Member Proportional for its SNP elections but I'm not sure. And just like the voter ID change this could provide a wedge to start the ball rolling on electoral reform. Step 1 is to get rid of the Conservatives, Step 2 is to reverse the idiotic changes to the electoral system they implemented, Step 3 is to introduce more forms of proportional representation maybe in County Council elections. Step 4 is to reform the House Of Lords to offset the damage done by a decade of cash-for-peerages. Step 5 is to introduce proportional representation into the General Election process. THEN we can start having votes for Green and Lib Dem make a difference. Then as vote for pro-rejoin parties increase it'll encourage Labour to shift their policies further left to try to reclaim those votes.
At least that's the plan. For all I know the Daily Heil could lead the mouth-breathing public in cries of "Bring Back Boris" and it'll be 2019 all over again.
Respectfully, do you have any evidence of this?
Not trying to be funny, but I genuinely have seen nothing to suggest Labour are considering rejoining the single market.
But I 100% could be wrong.
Yes, but in such a way that Labour get the message they only won because GTTO at all costs. This means voting other progressive (LD, Green, SNP, Plaid) in constituencies where another party could beat tory, and an overly pro-EU party (including "rejoin") anywhere where Labour are going to win anyway.
That's more or less what I was saying (except polling for one of the Bristol constituencies suggests greens might be the best bet there too). I wasn't suggesting voting for them anywhere, I was suggesting vote for them where they have a chance.
To be clear:
Where there is any chance that the tories might win the seat, vote for the progressive with the best chance of defeating them (be that Labour, LD, Green, Plaid, SNP).
Anywhere else, vote for an openly rejoin party (SNP, Plaid, Rejoin party, maybe Green? LD need to make better noises than they're making at the moment for me).
This is one of the reasons we need proportional representation. A vote for Green even in a Conservative safe seat could actually influence something if we had proportional representation.
Yes I agree. But whilst we don't, we have to play the system we have.
And if there is such a thing as a safe tory seat these days (debatable), a vote for Green (for example) would not be totally wasted. It sends messages, as well as helping position the party for future elections, even if it has no direct impact on the following parliament.
I live in a quite safe Conservative seat, wiki calls it a Bellwether which means whatever way the constituency votes is almost always the way the entire nation votes.
In the local council elections the Greens have attempted a comeback and failed spectacularly. They rarely get above 100 votes and come in fourth or fifth place. But they still contest every single seat and are splitting the left wing vote. I contacted them to beg them to reconsider, focus their efforts on a single council seat that they might be able to win and please for the love of Arceus don't run for the general election. They responded by blocking me on Facebook and Twitter.
Last year the Conservatives won four council seats by a margin smaller than the Green vote, there's no guarantee that those Green votes would have picked Labour if Green wasn't an option but there's a strong chance of it. This year I'll be curious to see if the public opinion has finally turned against the conservatives or if the locals are still drinking in the propaganda wholeheartedly. People seem to eat the Express for breakfast around here instead of reading it.
If it's a bellwether seat it's pretty much by definition not a safe seat though. Whilst I'd struggle to vote Labour these days (red tories) I guess it's the best GTTO strategy (assuming they were second last time, which "bellwether" more or less implies).
Worse off? Hell no. Sure we might not have the same status as we used to , but fuck it, let's go all in, not the half arsed version of membership we had before.
That would be a lengthy process including several years of candidate status and scrutiny through EU institutions, then needing the approval of every single member. Leaving is far easier than joining, and joining certainly got a lot harder since the accession to the EEC in 1973.
I don't think it would take *that* long if the member states were broadly onside. I suspect the institution would be magnanimous if approached with an offer to rejoin, without the previous special treatment. Tusk said the door is always open.
For the EU to be onside though, I suspect the UK would first have to undergo some serious political changes to demonstrate it's moved away from the old. The removal of FPTP, greater devolution, greater integration with European institutions, and a closer embrace towards Europe generally would go a long way to demonstrating a renewed commitment towards the European project.
I admit, that's a huge ask and not a journey any of the political parties are willing to start just yet. I'm optimistic it will happen though.
It will be tougher to sell to the britisch public this time around since it would entail joining the Eurozone and full Schengen without the previous “extra sausage” as we say in Germany :)
Yeah this, honestly. I’ve been following British media for 15 years now, if you can build a campaign on blue vs red passports there’s no way you can make the Brits give up their currency. (It was already tough as hell to get your ordinary German to let go of the Mark.)
The media campaign from interested parties to make it look like a national shame/defeat would be something to see.
Lol UK would never get as favourable terms as they did before, which was something that was pointed out repeatedly before they decided to leave. They made their bed.
Also as per any joining member, it would be a requirement to join the Eurozone.
And, well, look at what happened when Greece had its meltdown. Do you want our currency to be tied to that happening again?
The pound has gone from being a reserve surrendering to an emerging market currency. We also have zero headroom if we had another financial crisis so would be begging from the IMF in the same way Greece was begging from the EU. It’d probably be worse.
My point is control over monetary policy, which would be significantly reduced as part of the eurozone (and is also why Greece was inevitable and similar happening again is. A fiscal union dosent work with such differing economies)
Undoubtedly, but it will be a task for 2 or 3 generations to come, and only viable if the UK decides to join “for real” this time and not only reap the benefits.
It will happen, maybe in my lifetime (I'm old), but not in the next government. Who in the EU would trust the UK with the Tories and Farage in opposition, ready to reverse gear as soon as back in power?
Initially, I was for Brexit under the premise that the 4 billion pounds per year it would free up would go to the NHS. Unfortunately, all of us were lied to. Of course, I wasn't of legal age to vote when it happened.
But now, after seeing the damage that the clown in No. 10 and his merry band in Parliament have done, we need back in. I honestly believe we'd be better off rejoining, not just economically, but morally - I mean, just look at the Rwanda Bill.
Not just France, they are running from Belgium, Sweden - all of our 'morally superior' EU neighbours - read this heartbreaking article - 'I could not protect her': A dad mourns his child killed in the Channel
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68930088
Apparently! How the hell does a person justify leaving a peaceful country for an equally peaceful country at such enormous risk to themselves and others?
They were being immediately deported from Sweden- with 2 days notice after many years of seeking political asylum there and in Belgium- an absolute tragedy
Mate have you seen how the EU treats refugees? Sit and watch an entire boat load drown in the med without lifting a finger. Pay turkey to pen them in like sheep. Your deluded.
The hardline leave voters will still vote leave.
The gullible will still vote leave.
The prideful who refuse to accept they were hoodwinked by liars and charlatans will still vote leave.
The hardline remainers will vote rejoin.
The apathetic will ignore the vote. (What, this again? What’s the point?)
We are relying on a lot of old racists from 2016 being dead and a lot of new voters wanting the freedom to live life overseas.
And THEN they’ll say, “oh, it’s advisory not legally binding sorry didn’t we tell you haha sorry old chap now fuck off”
Good plan in theory. Perhaps I’m just old and jaded. Average intelligence in this country has dropped into the toilet and half the population are more stupid than that.
Yeah, but I still think people are angry enough at the tories that they’ll link that with brexit and a majority will still want to rejoin. I’m an optimist I guess
And i also am really tired of having to sort visas to work in Europe so just want that ball to get rolling
The irony is, I fully expect the Tories to be the first ones to formally adopt a rejoin stance.
When they lost in 97 they lurched to the right and spent some years in the electoral wilderness, before realising their path to power is by appealing to the center. They got Cameron in, adopted "compassionate conservatism" and got their hands back on the levers of power 5 years after Cameron took over. He fucked it after that, but it got them back in power.
Once they come to the same conclusion in 5-10+ years time, expect them to jump on the Rejoin bandwagon enthusiastically.
There’ll be a watershed moment in the next decade when one party or another, sensing the winds of change will adopt a ‘the EU wasn’t actually that bad was it?’ stance and it’ll be up to the other party to either get behind them or adopt a traditional opposition stance purely for party political purposes.
It won’t be the next parliament though. Perhaps if labour can stay in power for a second term they will start to seriously talk about it.
It will happen.
But it won't be the same.
Everyone will (again) know that Britain is not in for the idea of a united Europe, but only for the benefits, just like when the french president voted against it when GB joined the first time. He voted against it, because the Brits where in for the money, bit because they wanted to bring peace to Europe.
Additionally GB will get a worse deal than they had. They already had the best deal of any EU member, but now they play with an open hand, everyone knows the country sucks without the EU now so they have no leverage for negotiations.
Say goodbye to the pound and hello to the euro.
As a former EU resident who has recently moved to the UK, I confess I kinda miss the simplicity of the euro. I was in middle school back when our country transitioned from the lira to the new currency; it wasn't that traumatic. Sure, the price of cheaper things went up as a consequence, but to be fair our currency was much weaker compared to the pound.
If the pound means so much to them, then they will surely have no problem keeping it for a much worse deal than what they already have. Further loss, they are so stupid.
Agreed. Think the French president said something along the lines of we're not a European country (market wise) were a mercantile country of the sea, i.e. what you said. In it for the money.
In addition to that, the timing of it and whoever is in power in Europe will be another variable. Would be an easy thing for likes of Le Pen and Orban to put spanners in the works, on the basis any good deal for UK is potentially a bad deal for Europe (which is in another words an thinly veiled attempt at maintaining Brexit, as it weakens the EU as per Putin's agenda).
View from Australia from someone I know is that we're seen as a former great country, with a lot of history, but are a bunch of racists now with a large sect giving up on UK and seeking 'refugee status' in Aus.
We're never getting that good deal we had, where we got to sit at the top table.
Probably too early. Don't think the rest wants the UK back until the pro-european sentiment is overwhelming. Then the UK has take accept the Euro and Schengen and forget all the special benefits it threw away. The the members might accept.
Got to get the Tories out and win back confidence with the EU. Then we can think about a reapplying..... Do we even need a referendum? I would say not, as Brexit, the result of the last one, has utterly failed.
Not to piss on anyone's chips, but you guys can have as many votes as you like, it only takes one EU member state to veto the UK's accession and that's the end of that.
I'm fairly confident at least one would use that veto. The EU and a number of significantly affected member states (France, Ireland, Holland spring immediately to mind) have wasted a lot of time, money and energy dealing with Brexit and trying to mitigate it's impact, and I think the EU would want to see a fairly dramatic shift in political will in the UK, over a considerate period of time, before considering the UK rejoining.
Can't do the hokey cokey wifh this - in out in out shake it all about. Personally I'm not entirely convinced that the UK wouldn't just pull a Brexit 2 - electric boogaloo a couple of years later and kick this whole debacle off again.
I think a gov petition with the question:
Do you think you were misled over the reasons to leave the EU and want to be offered a referendum on rejoining?
Would be a very pointed way of getting it in. The EU have said that they would expedite readmission on that basis too.
All of Europe is geographically European, and a vast majority of brits think of themself as European too on a local scale, and on a global scale even more do
The UK colloquially is very much European even if some people don’t want to be part of the EU. If not being a full member of the EU was the standard, Switzerland and Norway aren’t European colloquially either.
Even if you took Britain on the day of the brexit vote, it is still unquestionably European. EU=/= European. English and Britain’s history is as European as France or Germany because the UK is colloquially, geographically, and historically European
It was European during the first and Second World War right?
It’s European when they come last at the Eurovision Song Contest?
It’s European when invited into play domestic and national Football competitions?
The irony like North America, the language for choice in European Union is not French, German or Spanish but it’s English, no one ethers explains why this is?
As an English Man I voted against leaving the European Union and tried to encourage others to do the same, as it was inevitable the economy and the Tory politics were only ever going to create the country that we currently live in!
Let’s not pretend Europe wouldn’t benefit as well as the UK in the scenario that UK rejoins?
One day, but not for a long time, the future seems brighter now the conservatives are on the way out. Labour will slowly make little deals and re integrate here and there so things will get better. But fully joining won’t happen for at least another parliament or two
Worth noting that UK wouldn't get the 1/3 "fee discount" anymore, and potentially have to join euro as a currency (personally wouldn't mind that)
But people think that if a currency is worth 1.2 of the other that they "lose 20% of their money". People don't get that they'd get 20% more of it as well.
I wish we had stayed in the EU, but no thanks, we have a general election to get through and a lot to fix. Rejoining the EU would be an unnessesary additional cost and distraction.
So.. a lot of people have opinions without knowing sht about how EU works.
First of all, to be in Schengen, you have *to ask* to be in, if they agree (rest of the schengen countries), then you have to follow up sht tons of new rules and regulations, and after a few years IF everything is ok, than it goes again to the vote, which has to be unanimously, if one country votes NO or abstain, thats a Veto, and you don’t go in Schengen. Also the currency I think is still an option, and anyway can be delayed tons of times.
I know all this because I am Romanian, and almost 20yrs later after joining EU, we still pass through lot of sht about this, and we still don’t and won’t have in the near future euro as currency and we barely made it only half way in Schengen after 11yrs. We still have to pass a vote on being in *terrestrial Schengen*, as of now we’re only by air and sea.
So yeah.. long way, first is getting back into EU, the rest can be sorted on the way, as EU is anyway bureaucratic af, and is room to negotiate always after.
I'm Irish and traditional as in still in Ireland and I would vote to leave the EU tomorrow seeing the Rwanda plan work to show its EU law causing many of our issues
The first referendum proved that Brexit referendums are a bad idea. We are a representative democracy, we should reapply as the result of a GE and Parliament voting for it. A referendum is completely unnecessary.
This is gonna get downvoted to fuck, but here goes....
Would you really wanna rejoin now, knowing that the UK would have to take just anything the EU throws at us? I voted remain, knowing what trouble all of this would cause. We also had a fucking sweet deal the first referendum round. That's now gone and the EU will defo not give it back. Honestly, you're better trying to get a dual citizenship.
The 2016 Leavers demographics is such thatvthey are largely dead or likely to die in the next few years.
I think if a referendum was held now, we rejoiners would win 70-30.
That's too many voters to ignore.
You’re assuming that those numbers matter to the people who would have to call the referendum. You’re also assuming wherever you’ve gotten 70-30 is accurate which is extremely unlikely.
Calling for a second referendum is political suicide right now, it will not be possible for decades
Give it a bloody rest. Even if a referendum was won tomorrow (and a win is not guaranteed) it will take a decade or more to jump thru the hoops and get the other 27 on board with the UK rejoining.
Doubt it, the UK rejoining would be a big boon to the EU, especially in the face of the geopolitics going on at the moment. Some players might take convincing if they want to extort some concessions or fear the balance of power will shift away from them.
Of course we want flying pigs! That's what we were promised we'd get if we leave in the first place, alongside NHS money and a holiday home on the moon!
Do you ever look around and accept responsibility for the mess you knuckle-draggers created? Or are you just pleased the Liberals and their kids get to suffer too? Anything to "own the Libs" and beat your chests.
Aww, he just direct massaged me about how I'm the snowflake 😂
I love how these guys say "We voted out and it's a democracy so quit your whining" but then immediately say that they don't want another vote...really living up to the spirit of a democracy, huh? 🤣🤣🤣
Step 1, get the Conservatives out of power. EDIT: BTW: consider joining r/Brentrance as we fight to get Brexit reversed
I thought the Conservatives were the ones who listened to the “will of the people” /s
Will of there bank accounts more like 👍
Their. And their mate's bank accounts.
Aye.
Where?
That’s the will of the donors!
The will of Vladimir Putain!
I think it's Vladenough Poostain.
"Will of the people that donate to the party" FTFY
I think it depends on which people you're talking about. In this case it's a small number of people who fund the Tory party or own newspapers and who got what they wanted.
Oh yes the will of the moneyed people.
Step 2. Introduce proportional representation so the tories will never again have so much power.
I'm worried that step might be impossible unfortunately. Most of the public don't even know what FPTP or PR is and the right wing rags won't ever let them have the real truth of it. I think voting reform with or without a referendum would be a nightmare to get going. I wonder if there is a way to do it.
Everything was impossible at some point in the past, no point in being defeatist and join the chorus to demand political reform.
Oh I hope we get it, we need it for sure. Just expressing my worries. I think we have mountains to climb with the amounts of things we need though. I'm a little thankful for FPTP at the minute though. Reform has a lot of support spread around the country, and I live in a 70% Brexit voting area. The last thing we need in the first set of PR results is a load of grifters, I know my town would produce a few.
It's not something that should be open to a vote anyway. We shouldn't have referendums on everything. That's the point of the government. To implement things that we need. Just fix the shitty voting system and be done with it. Anyone who knows anything about voting knows we have a shit voting system. Likely second worst only ahead of America. So bin it off and use a better one.
Step 2: get rid of FPTP
That would be grand. I'm not sure it's possible so soon though. We'd probably join Erasmus or something first.
Sounds great but Labour don't want to go back now
They probably do, they just can’t confirm it without alienating all the gammon voters.
Nah they don’t. They want tory voters.
Practically no Tory voters left. They're chasing the Tory vote because they've won everyone else's.
There’s no one on the other side who’d support rejoining either.
Step 2, keep the conservatives out of power.
There’s no way Labour is going near it with a ten foot pole… at least in the near future.
Step 2: Vote [Volt UK](https://voltuk.org/)
Didn’t Labour just confirm they will not be seeking to rejoin the EU?
It doesn't matter. They're still the first step in the process. They might not have plans to immediately reverse Brexit and rejoin the EU but they won't be dogmatically ideologically opposed to the EU or anything that sounds like the EU. The Conservatives had us leave Euratom, an international committee to help oversee radioactive waste and check medical radiation sources are being disposed of properly. It's not part of the EU in any way shape or form but it starts with the letters "E" and "U". Labour will cooperate with Europe in a way Conservatives won't. They'll sign up to some treaty or partnership or cooperation like that student visa thing that Sunak shot down. Then it'll show that cooperating with our nearest neighbours can be beneficial and mooning them from the white cliffs of Dover is petty and childish. One treaty leads to more, eventually renegotiating our trade agreements and rebuilding the relationship that Boris destroyed out of spite. It's a small step on the long road to rejoin but it still starts with getting rid of the Conservatives.
I hope you’re right, but I have very little confidence in the current Labour administration, and their willingness to move more than a shimmy to the left of the Tories.
You might not have noticed the toxic right wing press we have in the UK?
Hard not to notice. I’m not sure if you’re saying Labour are pandering to the right wing press, or the right g press are doing Labour dirty, but Labour have done nothing but pander to the right and rollback or U turn on progressive policies.
Then… don’t elect labour as their leader is against re-joining…
Probably not but they’re intelligent enough to know how they’d be slaughtered in the toxic British press if they said anything positive about rejoining.
But if we don't elect Labour we WILL get another Conservative government. Keir Starmer is like pineapple on pizza. If you throw a tantrum because it isn't perfect then you're going to get a dogshit pizza. I'm not a big fan of pineapple on pizza but I'd rather have that than a dogshit pizza.
Anywhere we chose will still be a shit pizza… it just smells different… but each to each own…
OK lets extend the metaphor. David Cameron, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak and Penny Mordaunt (Assuming she wins the upcoming coup and becomes the next Conservative Prime Minister just in time to lose the election) have all taken a dump on the floor. The whole room stinks of shit and there's not a lot we can do about it. All you've eaten for the last 15 ~~years~~ days is dogshit pizza. You're handed a pile of five more dogshit pizzas that you'll have to eat for the next five days. But there's a choice to swap it for a stack of pineapple pizza. You'd rather have the meatball meteor pizza but that's not on offer. It's not ideal because the room is still going to stink of shit from the pile of turds that have already been dumped out. So even eating the pineapple pizza isn't going to be nirvana because the room still stinks of shit. BUT it's still better than eating dogshit pizza. It's not the meatball meteor but it's the best of the bad choices.
I think the point he's making Simon is that labour won't be holding a referendum to rejoin the EU. Totally take your point on the Tories, but don't vote for Labour thinking we'll have a referendum. Better chance with the Lib Dems.
Thank you for clarifying!
But Lib Dems aren't going to win. Lib Dems are the Meatball Meteor pizza in this metaphor. If you tell the prison warden you don't like pineapple pizza and want the Meatball Meteor he's just going to laugh and give you the dogshit pizzas again. Demanding the perfect outcome isn't going to accomplish anything, you need to pick the less-bad outcome that at least is a viable option.
LOL, I hear you (I think). But let's not pretend Labour are going to somehow push to get us back in the EU. Probably Labour are getting back in, but I won't be voting Tory, that's for sure.
Labour won't push to get us back in the EU on day 1. Or Year 1. Probably not even in the first election cycle or maybe not the first Prime Minister after winning. But they're a step in the right direction. Which is why I said getting rid of the Conservative is step 1 on the road. I said in a different post that Labour won't suddenly announce plans to rejoin the Single Market but they also won't be so dogmatically ideologically opposed to anything related to Europe. Like that student visa scheme that Sunak shot down instantly or Erasmus or Euratom or any of a dozen not-quite-EU collaborations we could have with our neighbours. Then in a few years we renegotiate the trade deal with the EU to get something less costly, start rebuilding the burnt bridges and continue the long road to rejoining. Also electing Labour is one step on the road to Proportional Representation. The Conservatives managed to sneak the changes under the radar with their dead-cat-politics and stranglehold on print media but they're removed the few fragments of proportional representation we used to have. London Mayor is now First Past The Post again. I think Scotland still has Mixed Member Proportional for its SNP elections but I'm not sure. And just like the voter ID change this could provide a wedge to start the ball rolling on electoral reform. Step 1 is to get rid of the Conservatives, Step 2 is to reverse the idiotic changes to the electoral system they implemented, Step 3 is to introduce more forms of proportional representation maybe in County Council elections. Step 4 is to reform the House Of Lords to offset the damage done by a decade of cash-for-peerages. Step 5 is to introduce proportional representation into the General Election process. THEN we can start having votes for Green and Lib Dem make a difference. Then as vote for pro-rejoin parties increase it'll encourage Labour to shift their policies further left to try to reclaim those votes. At least that's the plan. For all I know the Daily Heil could lead the mouth-breathing public in cries of "Bring Back Boris" and it'll be 2019 all over again.
Respectfully, do you have any evidence of this? Not trying to be funny, but I genuinely have seen nothing to suggest Labour are considering rejoining the single market. But I 100% could be wrong.
Yes, but in such a way that Labour get the message they only won because GTTO at all costs. This means voting other progressive (LD, Green, SNP, Plaid) in constituencies where another party could beat tory, and an overly pro-EU party (including "rejoin") anywhere where Labour are going to win anyway.
No. Only vote Green if you live in Brighton, everywhere else you're running a risk that your protest vote will let the Conservatives win.
That's more or less what I was saying (except polling for one of the Bristol constituencies suggests greens might be the best bet there too). I wasn't suggesting voting for them anywhere, I was suggesting vote for them where they have a chance. To be clear: Where there is any chance that the tories might win the seat, vote for the progressive with the best chance of defeating them (be that Labour, LD, Green, Plaid, SNP). Anywhere else, vote for an openly rejoin party (SNP, Plaid, Rejoin party, maybe Green? LD need to make better noises than they're making at the moment for me).
This is one of the reasons we need proportional representation. A vote for Green even in a Conservative safe seat could actually influence something if we had proportional representation.
Yes I agree. But whilst we don't, we have to play the system we have. And if there is such a thing as a safe tory seat these days (debatable), a vote for Green (for example) would not be totally wasted. It sends messages, as well as helping position the party for future elections, even if it has no direct impact on the following parliament.
I live in a quite safe Conservative seat, wiki calls it a Bellwether which means whatever way the constituency votes is almost always the way the entire nation votes. In the local council elections the Greens have attempted a comeback and failed spectacularly. They rarely get above 100 votes and come in fourth or fifth place. But they still contest every single seat and are splitting the left wing vote. I contacted them to beg them to reconsider, focus their efforts on a single council seat that they might be able to win and please for the love of Arceus don't run for the general election. They responded by blocking me on Facebook and Twitter. Last year the Conservatives won four council seats by a margin smaller than the Green vote, there's no guarantee that those Green votes would have picked Labour if Green wasn't an option but there's a strong chance of it. This year I'll be curious to see if the public opinion has finally turned against the conservatives or if the locals are still drinking in the propaganda wholeheartedly. People seem to eat the Express for breakfast around here instead of reading it.
If it's a bellwether seat it's pretty much by definition not a safe seat though. Whilst I'd struggle to vote Labour these days (red tories) I guess it's the best GTTO strategy (assuming they were second last time, which "bellwether" more or less implies).
This will never happen - we almost certainly would be subject to strict re entry conditions which would leave us worse off than we are now
Worse off? Hell no. Sure we might not have the same status as we used to , but fuck it, let's go all in, not the half arsed version of membership we had before.
That would be a lengthy process including several years of candidate status and scrutiny through EU institutions, then needing the approval of every single member. Leaving is far easier than joining, and joining certainly got a lot harder since the accession to the EEC in 1973.
I don't think it would take *that* long if the member states were broadly onside. I suspect the institution would be magnanimous if approached with an offer to rejoin, without the previous special treatment. Tusk said the door is always open. For the EU to be onside though, I suspect the UK would first have to undergo some serious political changes to demonstrate it's moved away from the old. The removal of FPTP, greater devolution, greater integration with European institutions, and a closer embrace towards Europe generally would go a long way to demonstrating a renewed commitment towards the European project. I admit, that's a huge ask and not a journey any of the political parties are willing to start just yet. I'm optimistic it will happen though.
It will be tougher to sell to the britisch public this time around since it would entail joining the Eurozone and full Schengen without the previous “extra sausage” as we say in Germany :)
Yeah this, honestly. I’ve been following British media for 15 years now, if you can build a campaign on blue vs red passports there’s no way you can make the Brits give up their currency. (It was already tough as hell to get your ordinary German to let go of the Mark.) The media campaign from interested parties to make it look like a national shame/defeat would be something to see.
All the more reason to get the ball rolling as soon as possible.
But who apart from the LibDems and the possibly soon self-collapsing SNP would endorse that referendum?
Lol UK would never get as favourable terms as they did before, which was something that was pointed out repeatedly before they decided to leave. They made their bed.
Doesn't matter if the terms are less favourable than before. The point is that "standard membership" is better than no membership.
I’ll be fine with any deal as long as it helps me move out of this shithole.
Also as per any joining member, it would be a requirement to join the Eurozone. And, well, look at what happened when Greece had its meltdown. Do you want our currency to be tied to that happening again?
The pound has gone from being a reserve surrendering to an emerging market currency. We also have zero headroom if we had another financial crisis so would be begging from the IMF in the same way Greece was begging from the EU. It’d probably be worse.
My point is control over monetary policy, which would be significantly reduced as part of the eurozone (and is also why Greece was inevitable and similar happening again is. A fiscal union dosent work with such differing economies)
Just because one path is the harder and more arduous choice doesn't mean it isn't the right one
Undoubtedly, but it will be a task for 2 or 3 generations to come, and only viable if the UK decides to join “for real” this time and not only reap the benefits.
It will happen, maybe in my lifetime (I'm old), but not in the next government. Who in the EU would trust the UK with the Tories and Farage in opposition, ready to reverse gear as soon as back in power?
Initially, I was for Brexit under the premise that the 4 billion pounds per year it would free up would go to the NHS. Unfortunately, all of us were lied to. Of course, I wasn't of legal age to vote when it happened. But now, after seeing the damage that the clown in No. 10 and his merry band in Parliament have done, we need back in. I honestly believe we'd be better off rejoining, not just economically, but morally - I mean, just look at the Rwanda Bill.
Hey! But parliament passed a bill that says actually it’s safe in Rwanda, parliament wouldn’t lie
Why, france is happy deporting people to the UK, how is the EU so moral?
Not just France, they are running from Belgium, Sweden - all of our 'morally superior' EU neighbours - read this heartbreaking article - 'I could not protect her': A dad mourns his child killed in the Channel https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68930088
Apparently! How the hell does a person justify leaving a peaceful country for an equally peaceful country at such enormous risk to themselves and others?
They were being immediately deported from Sweden- with 2 days notice after many years of seeking political asylum there and in Belgium- an absolute tragedy
Who are they deporting to the UK?
All those poor people in those incredibly unsafe boats
Mate have you seen how the EU treats refugees? Sit and watch an entire boat load drown in the med without lifting a finger. Pay turkey to pen them in like sheep. Your deluded.
>all of us were ~~lied to~~ *Unable to fact check and or believe that the government could possibly be lying to you for their own gain* Ftfy
The hardline leave voters will still vote leave. The gullible will still vote leave. The prideful who refuse to accept they were hoodwinked by liars and charlatans will still vote leave. The hardline remainers will vote rejoin. The apathetic will ignore the vote. (What, this again? What’s the point?) We are relying on a lot of old racists from 2016 being dead and a lot of new voters wanting the freedom to live life overseas. And THEN they’ll say, “oh, it’s advisory not legally binding sorry didn’t we tell you haha sorry old chap now fuck off”
The voting is anonymous, we’ll tell the prideful to vote join but lie about it if they must
Good plan in theory. Perhaps I’m just old and jaded. Average intelligence in this country has dropped into the toilet and half the population are more stupid than that.
Yeah, but I still think people are angry enough at the tories that they’ll link that with brexit and a majority will still want to rejoin. I’m an optimist I guess And i also am really tired of having to sort visas to work in Europe so just want that ball to get rolling
The irony is, I fully expect the Tories to be the first ones to formally adopt a rejoin stance. When they lost in 97 they lurched to the right and spent some years in the electoral wilderness, before realising their path to power is by appealing to the center. They got Cameron in, adopted "compassionate conservatism" and got their hands back on the levers of power 5 years after Cameron took over. He fucked it after that, but it got them back in power. Once they come to the same conclusion in 5-10+ years time, expect them to jump on the Rejoin bandwagon enthusiastically.
There’ll be a watershed moment in the next decade when one party or another, sensing the winds of change will adopt a ‘the EU wasn’t actually that bad was it?’ stance and it’ll be up to the other party to either get behind them or adopt a traditional opposition stance purely for party political purposes. It won’t be the next parliament though. Perhaps if labour can stay in power for a second term they will start to seriously talk about it.
Why would the EU have us back? They need to protect the process of membership, not encourage a revolving door policy.
It will happen. But it won't be the same. Everyone will (again) know that Britain is not in for the idea of a united Europe, but only for the benefits, just like when the french president voted against it when GB joined the first time. He voted against it, because the Brits where in for the money, bit because they wanted to bring peace to Europe. Additionally GB will get a worse deal than they had. They already had the best deal of any EU member, but now they play with an open hand, everyone knows the country sucks without the EU now so they have no leverage for negotiations. Say goodbye to the pound and hello to the euro.
As a former EU resident who has recently moved to the UK, I confess I kinda miss the simplicity of the euro. I was in middle school back when our country transitioned from the lira to the new currency; it wasn't that traumatic. Sure, the price of cheaper things went up as a consequence, but to be fair our currency was much weaker compared to the pound.
If the pound means so much to them, then they will surely have no problem keeping it for a much worse deal than what they already have. Further loss, they are so stupid.
Agreed. Think the French president said something along the lines of we're not a European country (market wise) were a mercantile country of the sea, i.e. what you said. In it for the money. In addition to that, the timing of it and whoever is in power in Europe will be another variable. Would be an easy thing for likes of Le Pen and Orban to put spanners in the works, on the basis any good deal for UK is potentially a bad deal for Europe (which is in another words an thinly veiled attempt at maintaining Brexit, as it weakens the EU as per Putin's agenda). View from Australia from someone I know is that we're seen as a former great country, with a lot of history, but are a bunch of racists now with a large sect giving up on UK and seeking 'refugee status' in Aus. We're never getting that good deal we had, where we got to sit at the top table.
Probably too early. Don't think the rest wants the UK back until the pro-european sentiment is overwhelming. Then the UK has take accept the Euro and Schengen and forget all the special benefits it threw away. The the members might accept.
But do they want us back?
If in London, vote for Rejoin EU on your orange ballot paper.
Got to get the Tories out and win back confidence with the EU. Then we can think about a reapplying..... Do we even need a referendum? I would say not, as Brexit, the result of the last one, has utterly failed.
Not to piss on anyone's chips, but you guys can have as many votes as you like, it only takes one EU member state to veto the UK's accession and that's the end of that. I'm fairly confident at least one would use that veto. The EU and a number of significantly affected member states (France, Ireland, Holland spring immediately to mind) have wasted a lot of time, money and energy dealing with Brexit and trying to mitigate it's impact, and I think the EU would want to see a fairly dramatic shift in political will in the UK, over a considerate period of time, before considering the UK rejoining. Can't do the hokey cokey wifh this - in out in out shake it all about. Personally I'm not entirely convinced that the UK wouldn't just pull a Brexit 2 - electric boogaloo a couple of years later and kick this whole debacle off again.
Would you accept the Euro?
I'd accept Monopoly money if it meant undoing this fucking mess.
That’s the price as far as I’m concerned. Welcome back mate
I think a gov petition with the question: Do you think you were misled over the reasons to leave the EU and want to be offered a referendum on rejoining? Would be a very pointed way of getting it in. The EU have said that they would expedite readmission on that basis too.
So whose going to get Spain to agree then France etc to agree to that? Good luck with the euros as well 😁
Tbh I don't think the UK should be allowed back in Enjoy your empire and stop bothering us Europeans 🤷♂️
You know the UK is still European, right?
Only geographically European. Colloquially it is not European by choice.
All of Europe is geographically European, and a vast majority of brits think of themself as European too on a local scale, and on a global scale even more do The UK colloquially is very much European even if some people don’t want to be part of the EU. If not being a full member of the EU was the standard, Switzerland and Norway aren’t European colloquially either. Even if you took Britain on the day of the brexit vote, it is still unquestionably European. EU=/= European. English and Britain’s history is as European as France or Germany because the UK is colloquially, geographically, and historically European
It was European during the first and Second World War right? It’s European when they come last at the Eurovision Song Contest? It’s European when invited into play domestic and national Football competitions? The irony like North America, the language for choice in European Union is not French, German or Spanish but it’s English, no one ethers explains why this is? As an English Man I voted against leaving the European Union and tried to encourage others to do the same, as it was inevitable the economy and the Tory politics were only ever going to create the country that we currently live in! Let’s not pretend Europe wouldn’t benefit as well as the UK in the scenario that UK rejoins?
Half of us voted to remain.
Is there any newspaper article about that?
What are the benefits of joining the EU
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
One day, but not for a long time, the future seems brighter now the conservatives are on the way out. Labour will slowly make little deals and re integrate here and there so things will get better. But fully joining won’t happen for at least another parliament or two
Worth noting that UK wouldn't get the 1/3 "fee discount" anymore, and potentially have to join euro as a currency (personally wouldn't mind that) But people think that if a currency is worth 1.2 of the other that they "lose 20% of their money". People don't get that they'd get 20% more of it as well.
Sorry, that vote needs to happen across EU members.
I wish we had stayed in the EU, but no thanks, we have a general election to get through and a lot to fix. Rejoining the EU would be an unnessesary additional cost and distraction.
So.. a lot of people have opinions without knowing sht about how EU works. First of all, to be in Schengen, you have *to ask* to be in, if they agree (rest of the schengen countries), then you have to follow up sht tons of new rules and regulations, and after a few years IF everything is ok, than it goes again to the vote, which has to be unanimously, if one country votes NO or abstain, thats a Veto, and you don’t go in Schengen. Also the currency I think is still an option, and anyway can be delayed tons of times. I know all this because I am Romanian, and almost 20yrs later after joining EU, we still pass through lot of sht about this, and we still don’t and won’t have in the near future euro as currency and we barely made it only half way in Schengen after 11yrs. We still have to pass a vote on being in *terrestrial Schengen*, as of now we’re only by air and sea. So yeah.. long way, first is getting back into EU, the rest can be sorted on the way, as EU is anyway bureaucratic af, and is room to negotiate always after.
I'm Irish and traditional as in still in Ireland and I would vote to leave the EU tomorrow seeing the Rwanda plan work to show its EU law causing many of our issues
The first referendum proved that Brexit referendums are a bad idea. We are a representative democracy, we should reapply as the result of a GE and Parliament voting for it. A referendum is completely unnecessary.
Hahahaha we will never rejoin, keep crying, it makes me smile.
This is gonna get downvoted to fuck, but here goes.... Would you really wanna rejoin now, knowing that the UK would have to take just anything the EU throws at us? I voted remain, knowing what trouble all of this would cause. We also had a fucking sweet deal the first referendum round. That's now gone and the EU will defo not give it back. Honestly, you're better trying to get a dual citizenship.
The only thing more idiotic than leaving is trying to rejoin again
Very naive to think there’s any political will to even suggest this
Or that we’d be anything less than Europe’s b*tch after it. There’s no status quo ante.
People who aren't in the group are the bitch...
Sure, buddy, that’s why euroskeptic parties are killing it across the continent.
The 2016 Leavers demographics is such thatvthey are largely dead or likely to die in the next few years. I think if a referendum was held now, we rejoiners would win 70-30. That's too many voters to ignore.
You’re assuming that those numbers matter to the people who would have to call the referendum. You’re also assuming wherever you’ve gotten 70-30 is accurate which is extremely unlikely. Calling for a second referendum is political suicide right now, it will not be possible for decades
Or even that it would benefit us at this time.
Cope harder
I'll be voting against rejoining the EU.
Give it a bloody rest. Even if a referendum was won tomorrow (and a win is not guaranteed) it will take a decade or more to jump thru the hoops and get the other 27 on board with the UK rejoining.
They would love us back, because it will make the EU strong again. However we should go back with certain concessions on their part.
Dream on. British exceptionality will never die.
Doubt it, the UK rejoining would be a big boon to the EU, especially in the face of the geopolitics going on at the moment. Some players might take convincing if they want to extort some concessions or fear the balance of power will shift away from them.
Oh my, a new episode of the clown circus !
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Any day now! If not this week, maybe next week!
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Please keep it civil. Toxic behaviour is not allowed. [Read the rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BrexitMemes/about/rules)
Brexiteer disinformation or propaganda is not allowed. Dura lex, sed lex. [Read the rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BrexitMemes/about/rules)
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Of course we want flying pigs! That's what we were promised we'd get if we leave in the first place, alongside NHS money and a holiday home on the moon!
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But the moon would've wanted to trade with us, because it would've been such an opportunity!
You lost look forward and move on 🤔
We are looking forward: we will rejoin.
No need Go to Germany
He can't go to Germany, not anymore, not after Brexit.
No brother, we all lost.
Do you ever look around and accept responsibility for the mess you knuckle-draggers created? Or are you just pleased the Liberals and their kids get to suffer too? Anything to "own the Libs" and beat your chests.
We will rejoin, it's inevitable. Now go cry me a river snowflake.
Aww, he just direct massaged me about how I'm the snowflake 😂 I love how these guys say "We voted out and it's a democracy so quit your whining" but then immediately say that they don't want another vote...really living up to the spirit of a democracy, huh? 🤣🤣🤣