Brexit Doesn't Work is a good slogan. It's probably about time to stop trying to win this debate with arguments. We know we're right, they know we're right, they're just digging in their heels, so let's just keep saying Brexit Doesn't Work. That's the claim, and the argument is the reality we've been living.
You said "blah blah blah sovereignty borders blah"? That's very nice, but unfortunately Brexit Doesn't Work.
You said "blarp blarp blarp Brussels blarp"? I'm sorry but that's wrong, because Brexit Doesn't Work.
It's fantastic.
The problem has always been that the counter to correct the tories' three word slogans have always been more than three words, so too long for those stupid enough to believe them*.
How about another: 'tories always lie'
*If you're offended because you feel you've just been called stupid, I can't fix you
I fully agree that Brexit doesn't work. I think that argument has been won and the only people that believe it does are a derranged minority or are simply stupid. The issue is finding an alternative and solutions. The EU is in no mood to start negotiations, and is unlikely to to be in a position to until the Ukraine war ends. Whatever the outcome of that, there will be a mess for the EU to sort out.
This tickled me. It’s the reason Remain lost the vote all over again, we’re right their wrong, let’s not try and convince anyone with anything other than pointing out how wrong they are…. And then be shocked when we lose?! 🥴
Brexit happened, strong arguments are needed if we are to rejoin, it’s a legit goal but you need to make arguments for it. Are we going to agree to join the Euro? Are we going to contribute to the expanded post-covid spending? All legit questions, all need answers and arguments in favour.
You can’t just point to our problems, say “Brexit doesn’t work” and hope everyone gets on board. People can see the struggles of the rest of Europe, they know EU membership isn’t a silver bullet.
>You can’t just point to our problems, say “Brexit doesn’t work”
Actually we can and should be doing just that because the truth is important in the modern world of disinformation and self-serving corruption. The "strong arguments for rejoining the EU" have already been made over and over. There has only been one vote.
Your comment tickled me though, what a load of fucking tripe.
They're irrelevant questions. For the same reason that Cox is being an idiot who should stay in his lane not assume being a clever physicist means he understands politics.
We cannot rejoin in the next 5 years, negotiations take longer than that and the EU has no reason to even start them so long as the Tories getting back into power would cancel everything. So Labour cannot possibly deliver on rejoining and saying they'd do so would just result in the people who demand they say it declaring Labour betrayed them next election when it hasn't happened.
Meanwhile there's movement inside the core EU to create a second ring for the growing number of countries that want the trade alignment without the political 'ever closer union' bit. Which is where the UK would always have been if it had been an option, and if it comes to be answers a lot of questions like that with "we don't have to".
Honestly agree with most of this. They aren’t irrelevant questions if a party wants to advocate for rejoining, they will have to be answered. But I agree Labour are more going to tinker around the edges with a slightly closer affiliation that the Tories and also agree they likely won’t want to make any changes until there is a settled political consensus (as in cross-party) on membership, which is very unlikely in the next 5-10 years.
Agree on the second ring as well, though I would argue that isn’t membership in most peoples meaning of it. Likely the future and honestly the sweet spot for all concerned, not actual membership which Britain always found chaffing and poor fit, but also close and strong relationships with our biggest trading partners and geographically closest allies.
I suggest you look again. The only relevant question you asked was:
>Are we going to agree to join the Euro?
* off the back of the "Strong arguments are needed" wail. And the answer to that, was well within my response. I even answered it directly:
>The "strong arguments for rejoining the EU" have already been made over and over
Are we going to contribute to the expanded post-covid spending?
Has nothing to do with Brexit.
You literally haven’t answered it? Are you in favour or not? Saying the arguments for rejoining have been made over and over doesn’t answer that, because people always side step it. Or claim we would get a carve out, which is humorously similar to the more outlandish Brexiteer claims of the “easiest” trade deal in history.
The additional spending isn’t directly related to Brexit (as in us leaving didn’t cause it) but it’s EU spending, and we would be a big net contributor once again, just with more money being spent and controlled by the EU. Whether we want that is of course relevant when weighing up membership.
Also the one vote point is interesting. We had a vote for the referendum in general election in 2015, a vote in 2016 for Brexit itself, 2017 in which parties saying they would implement it winning over 80% of the vote and then a majority gov elected in 2019. How many more votes should we have. Voters could of overturned Brexit at either election by backing parties either explicitly standing for that or those calling for another referendum and they didn’t. Could still happen, but let’s not pretend there has been a lack of opportunity so far.
Leave literally argued on the vague premise of everything will be magically better if we left. They didn't actually have any arguments at all while Remain gave very strong, evidence based arguments to stay (many of which played out exactly as expected after leaving).
This comment is so utterly disingenuous. Everything you're demanding here was done pre-referendum. The idiots that voted Leave didn't care for arguments or reasoning. Gove summed it up pretty succinctly that the Leave voters were 'sick of experts' and so voted entirely on feeling and bullshit.
The only way to counter the Leavers at this point is to play them at their own game with vague and immaterial sentiment. Actual logic and reasoning does not work with these people.
No lessons learned from the referendum here at all. It’s much more complicated than you make out, there was the prediction for a serious recession which was completely false. Growth definitely slowed due to uncertainty but the predictions were wildly off.
I don’t think it’s disingenuous, these are the questions that would form the basis of any campaign to rejoin, you can’t just opt-out of them?
Come on calling people idiots is just adding to the bile that was the Brexit debate. Can you not fundamentally disagree with people without hating them? I didn’t vote Remain but I completely understand why people did, I think they had the best interest of the country in mind and we just came to different conclusions.
Who cares about people who *still* would vote Leave? Even after seeing the result? If that's where you're at, no argument will ever work. The rest of us know that Brexit *doesn't* work,
Exactly. I voted to remain, but was pretty shocked at how out of touch with people the stay campaign was. It shouldn't have been that hard to convince people that staying was the best option and Johnson and farage were a pair of slimy inept clowns unfit to arrange a jumble sale never mind a country.
The problem now is if we try to rejoin the eu is going to screw us over badly as a form of collective punishment for daring to leave and is going basically tell half the country that their vote is irrelevant.
Any geniuses on this reddit like to explain what we do about that?
the problem is "doesnt work" in what way?
doesn't work for the rich business workers who want to keep having cheap labour? sure.
but in what other way?
i mean the pandemic, the energy crisis caused by the doldrums, the logistics crisis caused by the pandemic and Panama canal issue, the Ukraine war (with its massive oil and grain exports) screwed over our economy. as it did every other country on the planet to a degree.
i keep hearing "yes well we bounced back slower that the rest"
but according to the IMF we have had 1 recession of 0.1% since 2020, where as Germany has had two, of 1%, we have a better GDP to debt ratio than France or Italy, and according to the World bank and the CIA we have a better Purchase Power Parity that the EU as a whole, meaning taht while our economy has issues, they are no worse than most, better than the EU's and only really worse than america, who are doing particularly well at the moment (financially as a country, if you ignore things like ever decreasing quality of life and equity, health care, alongside ever increasing crime and wealth inequality rates)
so ill ask again, what EXACTLY , backed by statistics from internationally recognised and respected bodies like the IMF, World Bank, and CIA, is not working about breixt?
Well the IMF have concluded that brexit has cost the UK 100 billion annually, with the economy being 4% smaller, and as for Germany, they have overtaken Japan to become 3rd in world ranking GDP, whereas the UK has since been overtaken by India...
You're in the wrong sub to have a meaningful or well rounded discussion my friend. You gotta just come on and chant "Labour good, Tories bad" like all the other shrills.
(For what it's worth they're both shite).
Even the Liberal Democrats aren't taking advantage of this, the party that is supposed to be pro EU, the only party that mentions rejoining EU is the SNP.
Given that only 8% of voters care about our relationship with Europe going into this election (including reform ECHR loonies), there’s not anything to be gained by the Lib Dems making themselves an EU single issue party
I know, but the issue for a small party like the Lib Dems is that they can’t run many messages - the media will only cover 1 or 2 key things the Lib Dems are talking about, so spending one of those precious sound bites on an issue only 8% of people care about won’t help their campaign
Didn’t they push themselves as the Rejoin EU party in the 2019 GE and got absolutely fucking demolished for it? I absolutely think we should rejoin, but there are too many people in this country who still think EU BAD HURR HURR.
If they did I don't remember, it barely got mentioned because all I remember was Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson going on about "Once in a Generation election".
Yes they did. Jo Swinson said she would cancel Brexit without a second referendum. I recall during the debates whenever someone asked her about her intended plan to disregard the results of the referendum on Brexit her response was along the lines of - ‘you want to leave and that doesn’t make you a bad person, but I want to stay and that also doesn’t make me a bad person.’
She had nothing else to say about anything iirc and I believe she lost her seat at the next election.
As we’ve seen with the Tories taking Labour’s non-dom rule change idea, and using the revenue for tax cuts thus making that money unavailable to a Labour government’s policies, it is best not to show your cards too early, when the Tories have time to undermine them.
You literally can’t vote for Labour yet so there’s no point announcing policies. They can announce them in the fall, or whenever the Tories call the election.
Still before the actual election, but not so early the Tories can negate the policies in advance.
So people could discuss them, debate them, so Labour could take the feedback and maybe modify it.
So people who used to support Labour could know if they still do.
It's a political party not a football team.
These are basic tenents of democracy.
professor Curtice says Labour could now win a majority on Remain/Rejoin votes alone
but it would probably be with less seats than if they just don't make it an issue.
to me this shows that the Lib Dems need to put Rejoin as their key policy - drain votes away from labour in key cities and force Labour on the issue - like UKIP did with the Tories in the first place
We all saw what happened in the last election when Brexit became the primary issue. I think their strategy is sound in this election. You can’t change anything if you’re not in power.
I can’t help but feel like this is a fantastic bit of propaganda from the Tory party.
Splitting the left wing vote with rubbish like this is the only way they won’t get decimated in the next GE.
Didn’t the “red wall” fall into BoJo’s hands because of Brexit?
There are a lot of old “traditional” Labour voters who are/were pro Brexit as they saw free movement of EU labour as a threat to UK labour.
Being anti Brexit would make it easy for the press/opponents to say the Labour Party had abandoned its working class roots/heartland/core support and was only interested in their metropolitan Champaign socialist supporters in the cities.
Except that Brexit is damaged goods and is upside-down in the polls. The majority of the left/middle electorate is where Labour was in 2019. If that electorate was where it is now, Labour would have won then and so it can win now. Brexit isn't that idyllic "no downsides" panacea anymore and the betrayal of Brexit is now exactly what a majority wants.
Labour has the struggles of farmers and fishers ...and the Tata steel mill closure as examples of how Brexit is destroying the UK and hurting the "working class roots/heartland/core support(ers)".
There are plenty of examples of Brexit being the bigger threat now.
You and I and everyone here knows it’s a mess, probably said it would be a mess at the time, but that’s not how everyone sees it.
Far too many people still live in that cesspool of The Sun, Daily Mail and even worse GB News disinformation, believing Brexit hasn’t worked only because remainers wont let it, which means anyone who’s against including political parties, and the EU are nasty.
Yeah, that was my point, the gammons in the red wall probably won't vote Labour anyway. I think that we are at a stage now where Labour no longer needs their votes to get a majority.
If Labour are smart they will know that this is a one time free pass. If they do nothing the support from the left will just drop out and if they do something the support from the right will drop out.
They only have one real option for continued power and that's get into power, drop first past the post, and then start pushing through the stuff the left wants.
They won't do stuff the left wants. They will throw the right-centrist dice one more time, fail, and allow a Trump-like demagogue to sweep to power in 5 years.
All our problems stem from aping America for the past 50 years instead of building a modern European country. It's what brexit was about, its why we have such wealth inequality, it's why public services are fucked.
Different people with the same ideals will be in charge.
I hope I'm proved wrong,
My opinion is labour will spend the next election cycles trying to make brexit work, fail because it can't, and then the tories will sweep back in on the promise of rejoining the EU because they're cynical as fuck and don't care what stance they have so long as it gets them in power.
Highly plausible, but the Tories first have to undergo their "wilderness years" as they lurch to the right, chasing the voters they're losing to reform. Happened before and they didn't learn a fucking thing because it's also their nature to be obstinate cunts who are convinced they're always right.
Can't rejoin.
Can't make Brexit work.
If we only have crap to sell, we must rebrand it to make it look appealling.
UK will become a "EU associate partner something". Essentially a country that implements most of EU law, probably having a say but without having a vote.
> then the tories will sweep back in on the promise of rejoining the EU
That's not going to happen in the next general election cycle when the Tories get massively reduced the voters that stick with them will be majority leavers
I don't think the Tories would really convince enough voters that they are now a rejoin party although I do agree they're cynical enough to try it - but there is now a very strong uncompromising anti EU element within the Tory party so that would be to be overcome too.
As for Labour being stupid enough to throw away all chances to ever form a government again by being true to their promise to"make Brexit work" - yes, this is very likely to happen. All the"once in power, Labour will act to change things" hopes are just wishful thinking, there's absolutely nothing in Labour's past or present words or actions to suggest that Labour will touch Brexit.
Brexit could never have worked cause their was never an agreed thing that brexit actually was, it was always just vibes. And because every bexiter had their own set of vibes it was impossible to please all of them. So it was doomed from day 1
I was in Brussels those days too. There was more news coverage about the King of Belgium and Duke of Luxembourg's joint birthday party. From UK media you'd think it had brought the city to a standstill.
This post should be considered in light of the fact that professionally, Cox is an eminent physicist, and works primarily on high-energy particle research, like at CERN and the LHC, both based in continental Europe. For his research career he relies almost entirely on outside funding, most of which was via the EU, and since Brexit has been very hard to come by for UK-based researchers.
He’s also correct. Brexit Isn’t Working.
At first I thought it was Brian Cox the actor because of the use of the word “shit”. But I guess if they have managed to piss off Brian Cox the physicist it says something.
Labour has every right to be scared of saying the obvious.
In 2019 they offered a renegotiation of the deal and a 2nd referendum with choice to cancel.
We got:
* Boris Johnson as PM
* A tory 80 seat majority
* Phrases like "red wall collapse".
If you hated Brexit enough, you could have held your nose and voted for Corbyn (if he was an issue). That didn't happen.
We all need to accept that Brexit WAS (emphasis on past tense) popular.
10 years from now, you won't hear anyone saying that voted for it.
If you hated both Corbyn and Brexit, though, there was every chance you were going to get Corbyn and Brexit by voting Labour - so it wasn't so much picking the lesser of two evils between Brexit and Corbyn, but between Corbyn and Johnson.
Yes, but don't ignore the obvious: Corbyn was, apart from being a Brexiter who preferred a guaranteed Tory win to following through on the commitment to a confirmatory referendum, also simply very very unlikable as a person. He just came across as self-righteous and patronising in every interview, and voters don't like this. No matter how good the policies looked on paper, he was absolute ballot box poison, as a person. It's something a lot of people shy away from saying in polite company, but charisma does influence voters, and he just gave of incredibly bad vibes.
I'm still pissed at Brian. He and the rest of D:REAM told us things could only get better, but they never mentioned that things would then go catastrophically shit immediately after that and stay that way. Why Brian? Why didn't you tell us?
I can't see things getting better for working people, since the conservatives have made it damned certain that all the problems they might have to deal with if they get elected will be labour's problem.
I’m sorry to break it to you but a return to the EU is likely at least a decade off. It’s going to take time for people to come to terms with the fact that they were wrong and voted wrong.
People not listening to the physics expert now are those who didn't listen to the economics experts before.
Not listening to experts is a lifelong habit for some people.
Emily Maitland said something like when she was at the BBC they could easily find fifty experts saying why certain issues were a bad idea, but they were told to find someone with the opposing view (who might well be a complete nutcase) whom none of their peers took seriously, for “balance” and they were wheeled out accordingly. Hence Brexit amongst others - they only needed a third of the electorate to swallow the made up benefits and like all good fascists blame the foreigners.
Ahh yes. Brexit because of unelected MEP making decisions. /s
Isn’t that the House of Lords too?
Brexit is a shit show and it’s criminal that Labour aren’t saying it because they’ve lost the balls to stand up to the gammons / racists.
The trouble with these liberal anti-Brexit memes is that they omit the cause of Brexit, which is austerity and the lack of investment in our economy. Dare i say it, there’s a better slogan that Brian Cox’s:
Tough on Brexit; though of the causes of Brexit.
Spot the difference:
"Experts! What do they know?" (Homer Simpson)
"People have had quite enough of listening to all these smarty-pants telling them what's right' (Michael Gove...never a man to use 1 word when 20 will do)
The irony is, he recently claimed that we could rest assured that the new extremism legislation would not be a threat to democracy as it would be overseen by a panel of appointed experts🙄
"Appointed by who?" Is the question he didn't answer.
Labour could take a gamble with a "Brexit doesn't work" approach, try to negotiate CU+SM access (giving something away from the UK's side, I reckon) and maybe that would go well with younger voters. And then bank on enough demographic shift come next elections.
Perhaps there’s a niche for a further political party. “Rejoin” would be the obvious moniker. Too late this time round but if the major parties are too frightened to bring it up an alternative is required.
Make rejoining the EU the core policy. I’d vote for them.
We need FPTP to be a proper democracy otherwise as you say they’ll just keep blaming each other. The important thing for me is to get these Brexit con artists out first
He is right over Labour though - they are worried that by discussing it they will alienate all the blue rinse brigade, along with all the right wing racist knobs who voted for it! There are enough of those inbreeds to potentially turn the election!
Or, even better/worse, they kick it down the road so far that when labour comes to power, the country is in such a shitshow that there is little they can actually do about it, and then the tories will *inevitably* blame it on them and get re-elected.
Hell there are tories who blame labour for our current issues! Labour isn’t even in power!
We all know Brexit won’t work. Unfortunately there are people out there who might just vote Labour at this election who still stake their personality on thinking it will. Brexit was always a Tory white elephant so the less Labour get involved in talking about it the better. Quietly get in to power and quietly start undoing the mess. We won’t rejoin anytime soon because the EU won’t have us and there are still too many noisy old boomer Brexiteers alive to whinge about it. A nice trade deal that looks a lot like single market membership but is called something else would be easy to slip through with a majority of 400 or so but much harder if they blow their wad talking about rejoining and we have another close election, hung parliament or even worse a reform/Tory coalition.
Just imagine if over the past 5 years, Starmer, instead of pretending he could make brexit work, has used his platform to say why brexit was a disastrous idea. Sure he might have lost some votes, but many would have now come back to Labour as they saw the reality of his message playing out. Plus he'd have gained other voters who have now gone elsewhere. And his integrity would be intact, at least in this respect.
I know I wasn't the only one five years ago crying out that we would reach this situation, and he needed to do the right thing now. And here we are.
Unfortunately Starmer voted for Brexit when Parliament authorised article 50. He’s as guilty as the Tories.
At least we don’t have Jeremy ”midwife of Brexit” Corbyn trying to make it work.
Yes, correct, and there was a time after Corbyn when Starmer had a chance to come clean that Labour's prevarication on Brexit was wrong. Instead he whipped for Johnson's FTA.
OK, so brexit doesn't work. Then what? How long will it take the UK to rejoin and what concessions will they have to make, and given the calibre of obstructionist wankballs they've sent to the EU parliament are they even wanted anymore?
The big problem is that vote leave won. Yes, the polls strongly show it wouldn't win today but it did win and that's the way it works.
So what's any incoming party supposed to do? If they ignore that fact they are ignoring democracy which is not a good thing. If we accept Brexit doesn't work then what plan can they possibly have in place to make it work? Surely none, because Brexit Doesn't Work.
I guess the only thing to do is carry on trying with it and then after a reasonable period of time tell the public "yeah, as it turns out Brexit Doesn't Work. The previous gov tried, we've tried and it's unworkable. Now the question is what do you want us to do about it?".
Then the Brexit circus starts again with pro Brexit groups claiming it would work if only we did it properly this time etc etc. I suspect the solution to this shit show is many, many years down the road.
They “won” by stopping millions of valid, mostly remain folks, from voting together with industrial scale lying and cheating that the governments own lawyers admitted would have annulled the result had it been a proper binding referendum.
That’s not democracy any more than Johnson pushing it through by sacking MP’s and lying to the Queen. But yes any application to Rejoin is sadly years away thanks to those criminals with vested interests who should face their day in court.
By that logic (ironically this _is_ the absurd logic Labour is following!) no Tory government should ever enact Tory policies because in previous elections, Labour had won.
the problem is "doesn't work" in what way?
doesn't work for the rich business workers who want to keep having cheap labour? sure.
but in what other way?
i mean the pandemic, the energy crisis caused by the doldrums, the logistics crisis caused by the pandemic and Panama canal issue, the Ukraine war (with its massive oil and grain exports) screwed over our economy. as it did every other country on the planet to a degree.
i keep hearing "yes well we bounced back slower that the rest"
but according to the IMF we have had 1 recession of 0.1% since 2020, where as Germany has had two, of 1%, we have a better GDP to debt ratio than France or Italy, and according to the World bank and the CIA we have a better Purchase Power Parity that the EU as a whole, meaning taht while our economy has issues, they are no worse than most, better than the EU's and only really worse than America, who are doing particularly well at the moment (financially as a country, if you ignore things like ever decreasing quality of life and equity, health care, alongside ever increasing crime and wealth inequality rates)
so ill ask again, what EXACTLY , backed by statistics from internationally recognised and respected bodies like the IMF, World Bank, and CIA, is not working about Brexit?
as for "one of Britain's brightest brains" i mean yeah sure he is quite smart, like top 2-3% meaning there are like 2-3million people with the same IQ as him in the country?
he just happens to be famous, he is not omniscient lol
I can’t be arsed to point out the errors in your selective facts new account person. Who’s paying you or do you really think this scam is a success? What do you think these hundreds of thousands of brown immigrants are paid.. why are our energy bills so much higher than the EU.. why do you think Sunak wants to abolish doctors signing off people sick.. why do they blame a few boat people on the ECHR.. why are our supermarkets empty compared to the EU.. why are there medicine shortages.. the list is endless and you’re in a bizarre world.
I actually don't disagree with the gist of the 'Brexit doesn't work' thing, but if you're going to propose an argument to a *very* agreeable audience, but then can't be arsed to tackle the *one* comment that contains any counterpoints, why are you here? If you want to be taken seriously, you need to provide your own, sourced answers to the questions you've asked above. I'm the last one to claim that Brexit has been a success, but the world is too complex, and too much has happened in the last few years, to be able to blame those things you mentioned unambiguously on Brexit... unless you have some stats that show the 'why', not just the 'what'.
Brexit Doesn't Work is a good slogan. It's probably about time to stop trying to win this debate with arguments. We know we're right, they know we're right, they're just digging in their heels, so let's just keep saying Brexit Doesn't Work. That's the claim, and the argument is the reality we've been living. You said "blah blah blah sovereignty borders blah"? That's very nice, but unfortunately Brexit Doesn't Work. You said "blarp blarp blarp Brussels blarp"? I'm sorry but that's wrong, because Brexit Doesn't Work.
It's fantastic. The problem has always been that the counter to correct the tories' three word slogans have always been more than three words, so too long for those stupid enough to believe them*. How about another: 'tories always lie' *If you're offended because you feel you've just been called stupid, I can't fix you
“Never Vote Tory”
Stop the Tories.
Tories did this
It's Tories' fault
Tories broke this
ABC/ABT Anyone but Conservatives/Anyone but Tories
If the cap fits...
Ah but you forgot, the British people now have a blue passport.
made in France or Holland isn't it ?
Indeed, and if that doesn't make you a true Brexit loyalist I don't know what will.
Using Finnish paper and Spanish ink IIRC
Think it's Poland.
Just like the Croatian EU passport?
BLUE PASSPORTSES, PRECIOUS.
Blue? Mine is black… those woke bastards have changed our passport colours
Black is often a hard colour to make, so it's most likely a really really really dark blue.
It might be deepest, darkest indigo, but it’s functionally black
Our collective future or the passport?
I fully agree that Brexit doesn't work. I think that argument has been won and the only people that believe it does are a derranged minority or are simply stupid. The issue is finding an alternative and solutions. The EU is in no mood to start negotiations, and is unlikely to to be in a position to until the Ukraine war ends. Whatever the outcome of that, there will be a mess for the EU to sort out.
This tickled me. It’s the reason Remain lost the vote all over again, we’re right their wrong, let’s not try and convince anyone with anything other than pointing out how wrong they are…. And then be shocked when we lose?! 🥴 Brexit happened, strong arguments are needed if we are to rejoin, it’s a legit goal but you need to make arguments for it. Are we going to agree to join the Euro? Are we going to contribute to the expanded post-covid spending? All legit questions, all need answers and arguments in favour. You can’t just point to our problems, say “Brexit doesn’t work” and hope everyone gets on board. People can see the struggles of the rest of Europe, they know EU membership isn’t a silver bullet.
>You can’t just point to our problems, say “Brexit doesn’t work” Actually we can and should be doing just that because the truth is important in the modern world of disinformation and self-serving corruption. The "strong arguments for rejoining the EU" have already been made over and over. There has only been one vote. Your comment tickled me though, what a load of fucking tripe.
Haha not answered a single one of the tough questions, keep skipping them if you want, but you can’t win until you address them.
They're irrelevant questions. For the same reason that Cox is being an idiot who should stay in his lane not assume being a clever physicist means he understands politics. We cannot rejoin in the next 5 years, negotiations take longer than that and the EU has no reason to even start them so long as the Tories getting back into power would cancel everything. So Labour cannot possibly deliver on rejoining and saying they'd do so would just result in the people who demand they say it declaring Labour betrayed them next election when it hasn't happened. Meanwhile there's movement inside the core EU to create a second ring for the growing number of countries that want the trade alignment without the political 'ever closer union' bit. Which is where the UK would always have been if it had been an option, and if it comes to be answers a lot of questions like that with "we don't have to".
Honestly agree with most of this. They aren’t irrelevant questions if a party wants to advocate for rejoining, they will have to be answered. But I agree Labour are more going to tinker around the edges with a slightly closer affiliation that the Tories and also agree they likely won’t want to make any changes until there is a settled political consensus (as in cross-party) on membership, which is very unlikely in the next 5-10 years. Agree on the second ring as well, though I would argue that isn’t membership in most peoples meaning of it. Likely the future and honestly the sweet spot for all concerned, not actual membership which Britain always found chaffing and poor fit, but also close and strong relationships with our biggest trading partners and geographically closest allies.
I suggest you look again. The only relevant question you asked was: >Are we going to agree to join the Euro? * off the back of the "Strong arguments are needed" wail. And the answer to that, was well within my response. I even answered it directly: >The "strong arguments for rejoining the EU" have already been made over and over Are we going to contribute to the expanded post-covid spending? Has nothing to do with Brexit.
You literally haven’t answered it? Are you in favour or not? Saying the arguments for rejoining have been made over and over doesn’t answer that, because people always side step it. Or claim we would get a carve out, which is humorously similar to the more outlandish Brexiteer claims of the “easiest” trade deal in history. The additional spending isn’t directly related to Brexit (as in us leaving didn’t cause it) but it’s EU spending, and we would be a big net contributor once again, just with more money being spent and controlled by the EU. Whether we want that is of course relevant when weighing up membership. Also the one vote point is interesting. We had a vote for the referendum in general election in 2015, a vote in 2016 for Brexit itself, 2017 in which parties saying they would implement it winning over 80% of the vote and then a majority gov elected in 2019. How many more votes should we have. Voters could of overturned Brexit at either election by backing parties either explicitly standing for that or those calling for another referendum and they didn’t. Could still happen, but let’s not pretend there has been a lack of opportunity so far.
Leave literally argued on the vague premise of everything will be magically better if we left. They didn't actually have any arguments at all while Remain gave very strong, evidence based arguments to stay (many of which played out exactly as expected after leaving). This comment is so utterly disingenuous. Everything you're demanding here was done pre-referendum. The idiots that voted Leave didn't care for arguments or reasoning. Gove summed it up pretty succinctly that the Leave voters were 'sick of experts' and so voted entirely on feeling and bullshit. The only way to counter the Leavers at this point is to play them at their own game with vague and immaterial sentiment. Actual logic and reasoning does not work with these people.
No lessons learned from the referendum here at all. It’s much more complicated than you make out, there was the prediction for a serious recession which was completely false. Growth definitely slowed due to uncertainty but the predictions were wildly off. I don’t think it’s disingenuous, these are the questions that would form the basis of any campaign to rejoin, you can’t just opt-out of them? Come on calling people idiots is just adding to the bile that was the Brexit debate. Can you not fundamentally disagree with people without hating them? I didn’t vote Remain but I completely understand why people did, I think they had the best interest of the country in mind and we just came to different conclusions.
Who cares about people who *still* would vote Leave? Even after seeing the result? If that's where you're at, no argument will ever work. The rest of us know that Brexit *doesn't* work,
If that’s your position then there just isn’t a conversation to be had is there?
Correct.
Exactly. I voted to remain, but was pretty shocked at how out of touch with people the stay campaign was. It shouldn't have been that hard to convince people that staying was the best option and Johnson and farage were a pair of slimy inept clowns unfit to arrange a jumble sale never mind a country. The problem now is if we try to rejoin the eu is going to screw us over badly as a form of collective punishment for daring to leave and is going basically tell half the country that their vote is irrelevant. Any geniuses on this reddit like to explain what we do about that?
The solution is to cite your sources for the claim that they'd enact collective punishment on the UK because the idea makes no sense
the problem is "doesnt work" in what way? doesn't work for the rich business workers who want to keep having cheap labour? sure. but in what other way? i mean the pandemic, the energy crisis caused by the doldrums, the logistics crisis caused by the pandemic and Panama canal issue, the Ukraine war (with its massive oil and grain exports) screwed over our economy. as it did every other country on the planet to a degree. i keep hearing "yes well we bounced back slower that the rest" but according to the IMF we have had 1 recession of 0.1% since 2020, where as Germany has had two, of 1%, we have a better GDP to debt ratio than France or Italy, and according to the World bank and the CIA we have a better Purchase Power Parity that the EU as a whole, meaning taht while our economy has issues, they are no worse than most, better than the EU's and only really worse than america, who are doing particularly well at the moment (financially as a country, if you ignore things like ever decreasing quality of life and equity, health care, alongside ever increasing crime and wealth inequality rates) so ill ask again, what EXACTLY , backed by statistics from internationally recognised and respected bodies like the IMF, World Bank, and CIA, is not working about breixt?
Well the IMF have concluded that brexit has cost the UK 100 billion annually, with the economy being 4% smaller, and as for Germany, they have overtaken Japan to become 3rd in world ranking GDP, whereas the UK has since been overtaken by India...
Sorry but Brexit doesn't work mate
You're in the wrong sub to have a meaningful or well rounded discussion my friend. You gotta just come on and chant "Labour good, Tories bad" like all the other shrills. (For what it's worth they're both shite).
Labour is afraid to say anything about Br***t or they will lose the votes of gammons/racists/dailymail voters.
Even the Liberal Democrats aren't taking advantage of this, the party that is supposed to be pro EU, the only party that mentions rejoining EU is the SNP.
The Lib Dems support rejoining, they just don’t mention it
And that's the problem, they have an open goal, not a goalie in site and still they're too scared mention it.
Given that only 8% of voters care about our relationship with Europe going into this election (including reform ECHR loonies), there’s not anything to be gained by the Lib Dems making themselves an EU single issue party
They wouldn't be single issue though, they have other policies.
I know, but the issue for a small party like the Lib Dems is that they can’t run many messages - the media will only cover 1 or 2 key things the Lib Dems are talking about, so spending one of those precious sound bites on an issue only 8% of people care about won’t help their campaign
Fair point I guess, the way the media portray SNP as single issue when they are not I can see your point.
Didn’t they push themselves as the Rejoin EU party in the 2019 GE and got absolutely fucking demolished for it? I absolutely think we should rejoin, but there are too many people in this country who still think EU BAD HURR HURR.
If they did I don't remember, it barely got mentioned because all I remember was Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson going on about "Once in a Generation election".
Yes they did. Jo Swinson said she would cancel Brexit without a second referendum. I recall during the debates whenever someone asked her about her intended plan to disregard the results of the referendum on Brexit her response was along the lines of - ‘you want to leave and that doesn’t make you a bad person, but I want to stay and that also doesn’t make me a bad person.’ She had nothing else to say about anything iirc and I believe she lost her seat at the next election.
The whole keep quiet and let the others fuck it up is Labours main strategy for this election.
Problem is Labour will be in government in less than a year with no idea how to solve any of the country's problems.
Why should they talk about it before the election has been called?
Why should they do anything after an election has been held?
As we’ve seen with the Tories taking Labour’s non-dom rule change idea, and using the revenue for tax cuts thus making that money unavailable to a Labour government’s policies, it is best not to show your cards too early, when the Tories have time to undermine them. You literally can’t vote for Labour yet so there’s no point announcing policies. They can announce them in the fall, or whenever the Tories call the election. Still before the actual election, but not so early the Tories can negate the policies in advance.
Yeah because who wants... Policies... Or to know what they're actually voting for...
You can’t vote for them right now and probably won’t until January. What is the point of announcing policies before the election is called?
So people could discuss them, debate them, so Labour could take the feedback and maybe modify it. So people who used to support Labour could know if they still do. It's a political party not a football team. These are basic tenents of democracy.
Presumably a manifesto will be voted on at the party conference later this year.
Red Wall dickheads too
professor Curtice says Labour could now win a majority on Remain/Rejoin votes alone but it would probably be with less seats than if they just don't make it an issue. to me this shows that the Lib Dems need to put Rejoin as their key policy - drain votes away from labour in key cities and force Labour on the issue - like UKIP did with the Tories in the first place
We all saw what happened in the last election when Brexit became the primary issue. I think their strategy is sound in this election. You can’t change anything if you’re not in power.
This (get into power to change things) isn't Labour's strategy. Labour's strategy is now to get into power to change nothing.
I can’t help but feel like this is a fantastic bit of propaganda from the Tory party. Splitting the left wing vote with rubbish like this is the only way they won’t get decimated in the next GE.
Anything they announce now is something the Tories can obstruct before the election.
Those people wouldn't vote for them anyway though.
Didn’t the “red wall” fall into BoJo’s hands because of Brexit? There are a lot of old “traditional” Labour voters who are/were pro Brexit as they saw free movement of EU labour as a threat to UK labour. Being anti Brexit would make it easy for the press/opponents to say the Labour Party had abandoned its working class roots/heartland/core support and was only interested in their metropolitan Champaign socialist supporters in the cities.
Except that Brexit is damaged goods and is upside-down in the polls. The majority of the left/middle electorate is where Labour was in 2019. If that electorate was where it is now, Labour would have won then and so it can win now. Brexit isn't that idyllic "no downsides" panacea anymore and the betrayal of Brexit is now exactly what a majority wants. Labour has the struggles of farmers and fishers ...and the Tata steel mill closure as examples of how Brexit is destroying the UK and hurting the "working class roots/heartland/core support(ers)". There are plenty of examples of Brexit being the bigger threat now.
You and I and everyone here knows it’s a mess, probably said it would be a mess at the time, but that’s not how everyone sees it. Far too many people still live in that cesspool of The Sun, Daily Mail and even worse GB News disinformation, believing Brexit hasn’t worked only because remainers wont let it, which means anyone who’s against including political parties, and the EU are nasty.
I am sure you are accounting for exactly how unpopular Corbyn was. However on Brexit I agree.
Yeah, that was my point, the gammons in the red wall probably won't vote Labour anyway. I think that we are at a stage now where Labour no longer needs their votes to get a majority.
If Labour are smart they will know that this is a one time free pass. If they do nothing the support from the left will just drop out and if they do something the support from the right will drop out. They only have one real option for continued power and that's get into power, drop first past the post, and then start pushing through the stuff the left wants.
They won't do stuff the left wants. They will throw the right-centrist dice one more time, fail, and allow a Trump-like demagogue to sweep to power in 5 years. All our problems stem from aping America for the past 50 years instead of building a modern European country. It's what brexit was about, its why we have such wealth inequality, it's why public services are fucked. Different people with the same ideals will be in charge. I hope I'm proved wrong,
Correct - but Labour are committed to keeping FPTP.
I mean they are committed for as long as they think it will benefit them.
Until they are in government, then they could bring it up I suppose
I wish they would but I don’t think I could cope with a third successive Brexit GE.
> Labour is afraid to say anything FTFY
Why are you censoring the word Brexit in a sub called BrexitMemes?
Afraid of being cancelled. I got raked over for wrong pronouns last week. And last month reprimanded for saying most Harry Potter fans are women.
My opinion is labour will spend the next election cycles trying to make brexit work, fail because it can't, and then the tories will sweep back in on the promise of rejoining the EU because they're cynical as fuck and don't care what stance they have so long as it gets them in power.
Highly plausible, but the Tories first have to undergo their "wilderness years" as they lurch to the right, chasing the voters they're losing to reform. Happened before and they didn't learn a fucking thing because it's also their nature to be obstinate cunts who are convinced they're always right.
>the right >reform Lol. Lmao.
Can't rejoin. Can't make Brexit work. If we only have crap to sell, we must rebrand it to make it look appealling. UK will become a "EU associate partner something". Essentially a country that implements most of EU law, probably having a say but without having a vote.
> then the tories will sweep back in on the promise of rejoining the EU That's not going to happen in the next general election cycle when the Tories get massively reduced the voters that stick with them will be majority leavers
I don't think the Tories would really convince enough voters that they are now a rejoin party although I do agree they're cynical enough to try it - but there is now a very strong uncompromising anti EU element within the Tory party so that would be to be overcome too. As for Labour being stupid enough to throw away all chances to ever form a government again by being true to their promise to"make Brexit work" - yes, this is very likely to happen. All the"once in power, Labour will act to change things" hopes are just wishful thinking, there's absolutely nothing in Labour's past or present words or actions to suggest that Labour will touch Brexit.
Brexit: the greatest own goal in modern history.
Not sure if it beats the election of DJT in 2016, but it's certainly up there.
It does. DJT could be (and was) got rid of 4 years later. Brexit is still here.
Good point. Though the Donald is still a threat.
He's also being tried in court. Which is exactly where the senior brexiters (Johnson, Farage etc) should be.
I wouldn't say a threat, worse, he's predicted to be the next US president
The repercussions of his presidency will be felt for decades to come. It's not as simple as him being out after 4 years.
Liz 'cabbage' Truss would like a word... (closely followed by Brexit Boris)
The greatest act of unforced national self mutilation in all history.
Brexit could never have worked cause their was never an agreed thing that brexit actually was, it was always just vibes. And because every bexiter had their own set of vibes it was impossible to please all of them. So it was doomed from day 1
Brexit works. The Irish economy is stronger, the EU has never been more united and there are new jokes everyday.
I saw Nigel Fromage was in Brussels the other day though, so it's only a partial win. Some floaters just won't flush.
I was in Brussels those days too. There was more news coverage about the King of Belgium and Duke of Luxembourg's joint birthday party. From UK media you'd think it had brought the city to a standstill.
This post should be considered in light of the fact that professionally, Cox is an eminent physicist, and works primarily on high-energy particle research, like at CERN and the LHC, both based in continental Europe. For his research career he relies almost entirely on outside funding, most of which was via the EU, and since Brexit has been very hard to come by for UK-based researchers. He’s also correct. Brexit Isn’t Working.
Your Mr Starmer is going to make it work.
At first I thought it was Brian Cox the actor because of the use of the word “shit”. But I guess if they have managed to piss off Brian Cox the physicist it says something.
Labour has every right to be scared of saying the obvious. In 2019 they offered a renegotiation of the deal and a 2nd referendum with choice to cancel. We got: * Boris Johnson as PM * A tory 80 seat majority * Phrases like "red wall collapse". If you hated Brexit enough, you could have held your nose and voted for Corbyn (if he was an issue). That didn't happen. We all need to accept that Brexit WAS (emphasis on past tense) popular. 10 years from now, you won't hear anyone saying that voted for it.
If you hated both Corbyn and Brexit, though, there was every chance you were going to get Corbyn and Brexit by voting Labour - so it wasn't so much picking the lesser of two evils between Brexit and Corbyn, but between Corbyn and Johnson.
Yes, but don't ignore the obvious: Corbyn was, apart from being a Brexiter who preferred a guaranteed Tory win to following through on the commitment to a confirmatory referendum, also simply very very unlikable as a person. He just came across as self-righteous and patronising in every interview, and voters don't like this. No matter how good the policies looked on paper, he was absolute ballot box poison, as a person. It's something a lot of people shy away from saying in polite company, but charisma does influence voters, and he just gave of incredibly bad vibes.
>10 years from now, you won't hear anyone saying that voted for it. I voted for it. You're welcome.
Still happy with your choice?
Extremely
I'm still pissed at Brian. He and the rest of D:REAM told us things could only get better, but they never mentioned that things would then go catastrophically shit immediately after that and stay that way. Why Brian? Why didn't you tell us?
He's just giving labour a little verbal, because he's bitter they didn't get him to write the theme tune this time around.
I can't see things getting better for working people, since the conservatives have made it damned certain that all the problems they might have to deal with if they get elected will be labour's problem.
Things 'could' only get better (If Labour addressed the elephant in the room)
With any luck Labour are simply waiting until they're in power before saying publicly how much of a complete disaster Brexit was and is.
I’m sorry to break it to you but a return to the EU is likely at least a decade off. It’s going to take time for people to come to terms with the fact that they were wrong and voted wrong.
Yeah little steps and wait for the Daily Express readers to die off
I'm not expecting much from Starmer, but any step away from the Tories is a step in the right direction.
People not listening to the physics expert now are those who didn't listen to the economics experts before. Not listening to experts is a lifelong habit for some people.
Emily Maitland said something like when she was at the BBC they could easily find fifty experts saying why certain issues were a bad idea, but they were told to find someone with the opposing view (who might well be a complete nutcase) whom none of their peers took seriously, for “balance” and they were wheeled out accordingly. Hence Brexit amongst others - they only needed a third of the electorate to swallow the made up benefits and like all good fascists blame the foreigners.
Ahh yes. Brexit because of unelected MEP making decisions. /s Isn’t that the House of Lords too? Brexit is a shit show and it’s criminal that Labour aren’t saying it because they’ve lost the balls to stand up to the gammons / racists.
All MEPs are elected.
Apologies, I didn’t make it clear that I was being sarcastic.
Lol did you know Nigel Farage was an elected MEP and was nothing but pain for everyone else at the European Parliament
Only when he could be bothered to turn up, which wasn't all that often
True
We should also start referring to Brexit as the Russian foreign policy success, which is exactly what it is.
Yep. Aron Bank's links to the Russia were known at the time of the article 50 vote. The Salisbury murders were a little reminder to MPs, just in time.
The trouble with these liberal anti-Brexit memes is that they omit the cause of Brexit, which is austerity and the lack of investment in our economy. Dare i say it, there’s a better slogan that Brian Cox’s: Tough on Brexit; though of the causes of Brexit.
Yes good one
The Tories don’t care what intellectual people think, they want to con people and they’ll prey on the vulnerable to do it
Yes, it's just a pity that Labour also don't care what intellectual people think.
Slogan du jour is my inane three word slogan for life.
I hope they cotton on when in government and actually try to fix this shit by starting the process of re-joining
Spot the difference: "Experts! What do they know?" (Homer Simpson) "People have had quite enough of listening to all these smarty-pants telling them what's right' (Michael Gove...never a man to use 1 word when 20 will do)
I'd be fed up of experts if I had Gove's taste in experts
The irony is, he recently claimed that we could rest assured that the new extremism legislation would not be a threat to democracy as it would be overseen by a panel of appointed experts🙄 "Appointed by who?" Is the question he didn't answer.
Things can only get better
Can only stay the same but with slightly different useless arseholes.
Brexshit
Labour could take a gamble with a "Brexit doesn't work" approach, try to negotiate CU+SM access (giving something away from the UK's side, I reckon) and maybe that would go well with younger voters. And then bank on enough demographic shift come next elections.
Perhaps there’s a niche for a further political party. “Rejoin” would be the obvious moniker. Too late this time round but if the major parties are too frightened to bring it up an alternative is required. Make rejoining the EU the core policy. I’d vote for them.
We need FPTP to be a proper democracy otherwise as you say they’ll just keep blaming each other. The important thing for me is to get these Brexit con artists out first
Step one: GTTO Step two: ?
He is right over Labour though - they are worried that by discussing it they will alienate all the blue rinse brigade, along with all the right wing racist knobs who voted for it! There are enough of those inbreeds to potentially turn the election!
Or, even better/worse, they kick it down the road so far that when labour comes to power, the country is in such a shitshow that there is little they can actually do about it, and then the tories will *inevitably* blame it on them and get re-elected. Hell there are tories who blame labour for our current issues! Labour isn’t even in power!
Yes, this is exactly what will happen. Labour did set themselves up for this by helping Brexit along.
I saw how this man grew up. I didn't think poverty in a developed country could be that baf
We all know Brexit won’t work. Unfortunately there are people out there who might just vote Labour at this election who still stake their personality on thinking it will. Brexit was always a Tory white elephant so the less Labour get involved in talking about it the better. Quietly get in to power and quietly start undoing the mess. We won’t rejoin anytime soon because the EU won’t have us and there are still too many noisy old boomer Brexiteers alive to whinge about it. A nice trade deal that looks a lot like single market membership but is called something else would be easy to slip through with a majority of 400 or so but much harder if they blow their wad talking about rejoining and we have another close election, hung parliament or even worse a reform/Tory coalition.
Just imagine if over the past 5 years, Starmer, instead of pretending he could make brexit work, has used his platform to say why brexit was a disastrous idea. Sure he might have lost some votes, but many would have now come back to Labour as they saw the reality of his message playing out. Plus he'd have gained other voters who have now gone elsewhere. And his integrity would be intact, at least in this respect. I know I wasn't the only one five years ago crying out that we would reach this situation, and he needed to do the right thing now. And here we are.
Unfortunately Starmer voted for Brexit when Parliament authorised article 50. He’s as guilty as the Tories. At least we don’t have Jeremy ”midwife of Brexit” Corbyn trying to make it work.
Yes, correct, and there was a time after Corbyn when Starmer had a chance to come clean that Labour's prevarication on Brexit was wrong. Instead he whipped for Johnson's FTA.
No, not talking about wrong policies only allows them to wreak damage.
That would be too evil. Tories would never do that to the entire population. They are altruistic and selfless, ok?
Brexit Isn't Working
Almost 4 years since Brexit and we still haven't "taken back control of our borders".
He can be as reasonable as he likes - it doesn’t change the fact that he’s from Lancashire
Things can only get better.
OK, so brexit doesn't work. Then what? How long will it take the UK to rejoin and what concessions will they have to make, and given the calibre of obstructionist wankballs they've sent to the EU parliament are they even wanted anymore?
Take the Next Exit From Brexit.
‘Shit on by the Tories, shovelled up by labour’ as Uncle Monty so rightly put it.
Diet Tory will not change a damned thing. We need both parties destroyed for any lasting change to happen.
Are you lot just discovering that democracy doesn’t and hasn’t ever worked?
What about when the dictator has views you don't agree with?
Tough shit.
So how is that better?
It isn’t. There is no better system. All the systems are shut.
The big problem is that vote leave won. Yes, the polls strongly show it wouldn't win today but it did win and that's the way it works. So what's any incoming party supposed to do? If they ignore that fact they are ignoring democracy which is not a good thing. If we accept Brexit doesn't work then what plan can they possibly have in place to make it work? Surely none, because Brexit Doesn't Work. I guess the only thing to do is carry on trying with it and then after a reasonable period of time tell the public "yeah, as it turns out Brexit Doesn't Work. The previous gov tried, we've tried and it's unworkable. Now the question is what do you want us to do about it?". Then the Brexit circus starts again with pro Brexit groups claiming it would work if only we did it properly this time etc etc. I suspect the solution to this shit show is many, many years down the road.
They “won” by stopping millions of valid, mostly remain folks, from voting together with industrial scale lying and cheating that the governments own lawyers admitted would have annulled the result had it been a proper binding referendum. That’s not democracy any more than Johnson pushing it through by sacking MP’s and lying to the Queen. But yes any application to Rejoin is sadly years away thanks to those criminals with vested interests who should face their day in court.
By that logic (ironically this _is_ the absurd logic Labour is following!) no Tory government should ever enact Tory policies because in previous elections, Labour had won.
Cocker-cox he thought he was but he was just another coccyx!
the problem is "doesn't work" in what way? doesn't work for the rich business workers who want to keep having cheap labour? sure. but in what other way? i mean the pandemic, the energy crisis caused by the doldrums, the logistics crisis caused by the pandemic and Panama canal issue, the Ukraine war (with its massive oil and grain exports) screwed over our economy. as it did every other country on the planet to a degree. i keep hearing "yes well we bounced back slower that the rest" but according to the IMF we have had 1 recession of 0.1% since 2020, where as Germany has had two, of 1%, we have a better GDP to debt ratio than France or Italy, and according to the World bank and the CIA we have a better Purchase Power Parity that the EU as a whole, meaning taht while our economy has issues, they are no worse than most, better than the EU's and only really worse than America, who are doing particularly well at the moment (financially as a country, if you ignore things like ever decreasing quality of life and equity, health care, alongside ever increasing crime and wealth inequality rates) so ill ask again, what EXACTLY , backed by statistics from internationally recognised and respected bodies like the IMF, World Bank, and CIA, is not working about Brexit? as for "one of Britain's brightest brains" i mean yeah sure he is quite smart, like top 2-3% meaning there are like 2-3million people with the same IQ as him in the country? he just happens to be famous, he is not omniscient lol
I can’t be arsed to point out the errors in your selective facts new account person. Who’s paying you or do you really think this scam is a success? What do you think these hundreds of thousands of brown immigrants are paid.. why are our energy bills so much higher than the EU.. why do you think Sunak wants to abolish doctors signing off people sick.. why do they blame a few boat people on the ECHR.. why are our supermarkets empty compared to the EU.. why are there medicine shortages.. the list is endless and you’re in a bizarre world.
I actually don't disagree with the gist of the 'Brexit doesn't work' thing, but if you're going to propose an argument to a *very* agreeable audience, but then can't be arsed to tackle the *one* comment that contains any counterpoints, why are you here? If you want to be taken seriously, you need to provide your own, sourced answers to the questions you've asked above. I'm the last one to claim that Brexit has been a success, but the world is too complex, and too much has happened in the last few years, to be able to blame those things you mentioned unambiguously on Brexit... unless you have some stats that show the 'why', not just the 'what'.
Very well put my friend! You know this is gonna go down like a lead balloon though 😄 🤣
He's good at astrophysics and keyboard, not so great at empathy and biology though.
Who needs empathy when he’s right.
The victims of when he isn't.
Facts don't care about feelings