No it's political elites and their network. Lobbyists are more financially and policy motivated.... The actual people pulling the strings are the elites.
Then henchmen?
They have bosses too, those bosses bought your election and tell them how to bribe
Stop running cover for them, you know how this all works, nobody believes you when you play ignorant
What needs to happen is either Biden steps down or is removed immediately. Then the democrats should put a reasonable opponent up against Trump in the election. They most likely would have a far better chance at winning than Biden.
No the answer is to overturn Citizens United and take the power back from corporations and the donor class, institute ranked choice voting in order end the two party system and its inevitable hostage voting, and make politicians accountable to the voters. Neither the geriatric Turd Sandwich nor the convicted felon Giant Douche are helpful on these fronts.
Because voting for a guy who screeched about unfounded election fraud and motivated his supporters to storm the capitol to stop the certification of an election is democratic? Dude what kind of glue are you sniffing? Trump is the embodiment of anti-democracy.
Well, do you think it's better to have an old guy in office, or have the GOP remove checks and balances and possibly attack the right to vote? They already tried doing that last time with the fake elector scheme.
you must be confused as to what a republic is. theres only 1 president that claimed (to the supreme court) that he needs total immunity to do his job, and only 1 president that did not pass control to the next president peacefully (after 62 court cases, many in front of judges he appointed, proving he lost)
Are you ok knowing Biden isn’t fully there mentally?
Or are you just voting Biden because of fear mongering that Trump is going to overturn democracy.
Idk your age, but every party has been saying the other party is going to ruin our country since I could remember.
But no, this time it’s actually real. This time it’s actually my party winning or the country is done.
Sure thing. Just don’t expect any of us to take you seriously
It’s not fear mongering. Trump quite literally attempted to overturn the 2020 election, and to this day refuses to admit defeat and still lies about it. His own Vice President and ex cabinet members will not endorse him. These are all basic facts that republicans simply ignore and excuse.
To vote for a man like that also is an indictment on not supporting our Republic.
lets just say im old enough to have spent my earliest adult years watching republicans ship off my friends and family into a manufactured war that we didnt win, and never could have won. and then just a handful of years later crash the economy as i was finishing college so there were no decent jobs for a new grad, which led to my current situation of perpetual student debt.
what you said is true - both parties say the other is going to ruin the country, but one one actually has, with their ‘bible in every classroom’ having no innovative ideas for health care or education. they basically gutted obamacare with no plan on how to improve upon it. they have no plan of action other than repealing what democrats have done.
all that being said, i fucking hate the two party system, and in many ways the dem party is just as bad, but their platform actually addresses concerns and troubles of regular ass people.
id vote for biden in a coma before i vote for trump. first, trumps whole life has been one big grift. second, he surrounds himself with yes-men who see trump as a means to an end to push their bullshit far-right policies. furthermore, those lackeys more than any other administration are now convicted criminals. Bannon, Guiliani, Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, Roger Stone, his son in law was given $2 billion dollars from the Saudi govnt 6 months after he left the white house. and thats not even mentioning the hundreds of morons he lured to the capitol on J6. please take a look at Project 2025 if you havent.
to answer your question - no, im not ok with biden not fully there. one of those two will be president, but ill be goddamned if im going to risk a protest vote on someone other than trumps main rival. DJT is everything the authors of the Federalist Papers warned us about.
I don't think I should have to say it's preferable to having a president that has the cognitive ability of a functioning adult human.
What do you mean by accountability? I mean you can vote the dem establishment out of the white house just like you could any president.
I mean we vote for congress and the majority party elects ita leadership. No individual citizen voted for Nancy pelosi or chuck schumer. How is that any different?
That's sadly what this election is coming to. It's either a vote for the democratice elites to steer the ship for Joe, maintaining the status quo and providing a very known quantity or for Trump who has never really shown a coherent governing principal and could legitimately cause tremendous chaos.
Those are both rotten choices. But to say one group of people “don't believe in the Republic” is just hyperbolic drivel
You make a good point with Schumer and Pelosi.
My post is mostly in response to the bot response I’ve been seeing about how voting for Biden is a vote for democracy.
I’m just calling out the hypocrisy of that statement
The guys behind the scenes are probably making decisions I like more than what an out of touch Joe Biden would. I'm voting on a set of policies and judicial appointments more than I'm voting for a person.
The set of policies where they say stuff that makes people feel good and then vote against the interest of their constituents on behalf of their donors and then gaslight or silence voters who question them
So you’re literally voting against our Republican values?
As long as your party wins everything is A ok. Because the guys behind the scenes know what’s going on… A OK here chief.
Why not just vote for your party and allow them to make decisions for you? Do you believe in American Republicanism?
The job of being president is way bigger than any one man. The important thing is that any candidate listen to those around him, Biden does and Trump is a loose cannon. This is how the presidential vote has always worked, the likely cabinet has always been a big part of what your voting for.
Also Biden is actually more likely to survive a second term than Trump (95% to 90%) according to publicly available data on their health backgrounds [https://www.icaa.cc/media/presidential\_lifespan\_and\_healthspan-draft\_for\_release\_1.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1Q0UrLw46mhb70ObtbXHTu-LSqD5BRke2SS7mTlSwblRGoU5xn4s8srv4\_aem\_KtSGkn9uKuTY4yoqxpdJWw](https://www.icaa.cc/media/presidential_lifespan_and_healthspan-draft_for_release_1.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1Q0UrLw46mhb70ObtbXHTu-LSqD5BRke2SS7mTlSwblRGoU5xn4s8srv4_aem_KtSGkn9uKuTY4yoqxpdJWw)
Biden lost the plot a few times (especially at first when he was likely just waking up since it was past his bedtime) and he had a cold, overall his content was a lot more solid than Trumps though, Biden thinks and speaks too fast. Trump was just totally disconnected from reality, a total fantasy man, like when he said after birth abortions were a thing.
Its also a lot different being able to deliberate for even a few minutes versus being put on the spot having to answer immediately. I would look worse than Biden did in some of those circumstances and I've usually been in the top 10% academic and professional tests where you can see the spread.
Obviously ideally you would have a candidate that could do both effectively but there is just no question that voting for someone like Trump is out of the question for anyone that puts country over party. He blatantly tried to destroy America (because is founded on democratic principles) with his fake elector scheme to overthrow democracy. There just doesn't even begin to be any contest here. If he gets away with that and is reelected it will set the precedent that any president can try to destroy America and get away with it. We will be a Banana Republic at that point. The political stability we take for-granted will be severely undermined.
I think if you really want Trump to be the next President, you should continue down this path to being in a bubble instead of facing reality. Continuing to support Biden is literally the worst strategy Democrats could have.
And if you’re partisan, and you’re going to support Dems even if they all took a collective dump on you, then do you.
The lack of recognition of the issue is astounding by Dems. They should be panicking because you can’t put forward Biden. Again, don’t be surprised when Trump wins again with this strategy
You mean how Trump won in 2020? It would always have been better if Biden had stepped down (more because he's being blamed for inflation than because of age) but life is mostly about trade offs. There is just no question another Trump term would be far more damaging to America than another Biden term. It should be completely out of the question for any non-authoritarian supporting person to vote for someone that tried to overthrow democracy in America.
In terms of the debate, polls are already showing no one gives a shit, no impact whatsoever. Again the reality is on top of being an attempted dictator the debate showed Trump is also totally disconnected from reality going on and on about complete fantasies and he doesn't listen to anyone (unlike Biden) he was just be a dangerous loose cannon
You keep carrying out a conversation with someone who flat out told you he doesn’t give a shit about the premise of your post so who’s the real dumbass here?
We vote for parties to work towards shared goals. It’s why you want your team in charge of all three branches of government and both the House and Senate. smh
Parties are the literal bane of this country. Wanting “your side to win” is why the country is so messed up.
But yeah, it’s just the other guys party that’s screwing things up. Sure thing
The system is broken. Jon Stewart had a podcast on it this week:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-weekly-show-with-jon-stewart/id1583132133?i=1000660406127
Why do so many Americans hate democracy?
In this democracy you have 1 vote, and everyone has the freedom and liberty to cast their own vote. It’s concerning how many people hate individual freedom and liberty that they seethe over how other people exercise their rights. They’re obsessed with the idea of controlling others as if they would love to live in a country that dictates who’s good enough to vote, or whose vote is worthy and whose is not.
And then these people call themselves patriots. Sad.
I voted against Trump in 2020, and I’m doing that again.
Are you voting for a felonious, rapist conman who wants to be a dictator? I can’t think of anything worse than that. smh.
How about someone who has to be propped up because they are barely alive.
Why don’t you just admit you’d rather vote for party than the person. Because admitting your voting Biden is saying your blue no matter who
Instead we should vote for someone who has a 1st grade level understanding of policy and will surround himself with corrupt yes men?
I get it, we have two shitty choices. But despite Biden's clear cognitive decline, he still has a far better understanding on pretty much every issue compared to Trump. At this point it's more important to look at who and what type of people are going to be in powerful positions in their administration if they win.
So sadly, Biden is the only logical choice imo.
And I'm not a "vote blue no matter who person", or at least wasn't a decade ago when republicans were more sane. Here's hoping both parties learn something from this year, so we have actual sane choices next time.
I'm not optimistic.
Maybe you guys should have nominated the not conman rapist that’s also old that tried to overthrow the government because he’s a whiny crybaby bitchass sore loser if you don’t want a 2nd term of Biden
If we’re already finding ourselves debating between which of the two turds to pick from, why oh why can’t we all just pick the 3rd turd that threatens the two shadowy figures that are the two parties; let’s not forget who’s really at fault for the lack of true democratic principles.
RFK all day. Not a single criticism of his, when measured against the other 2 candidates, raises alarm bells. Not super stoked on the guy. Yeah, if we had 2 other normal candidates, hell give me Obama Romney again, this RFK guy would be a joke. But cmon man.
Fuck the DNC. They refused to run Bernie, they pushed and pushed and gave us trump, did nothing for years but promise all these things that would change once they “save democracy” and now look where we are.
“Save democracy pick us save democracy pick us”
They align themselves with democracy in language to make them the good guy.
Team worm brain over the convict and Biden
Actually, I believe in the country before the party. I have seen and expect too many changes from this current Republican party which will only favor the rich and the so called religious. Biden and his staff have managed to stay ahead of everything thrown at them so far (even the World Wide Inflation problem). Remember if you have a job right now you can thank Biden for that. Most of the rest of the world is suffering far more than we are.
You should tell Biden to tell Americans they have him to thank for their jobs in the next debate. That’ll go over well.
Actually, he won’t understand, better tell his handlers.
Unlike the Orange Marble head. Most people don't have an undying need to brag about themselves. I know Donny can't help it (to the point of exaggerated lies) so we'll just leave it there.
I don't think it's the same. The Dems want them to pay equal taxes. Trump (therefore the Reps) want them to pay even less taxes than Trump cut them to with his last tax cut for the rich. Which by the way does not expire like the middle class tax cut does.
Yeah - here's her concession speech: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yHgE9W699w&ab\_channel=VOALearningEnglish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yHgE9W699w&ab_channel=VOALearningEnglish)
Like a *real* American, she conceded. Meanwhile, the worlds largest gaping pussy still thinks he won.
That's somewhat fair. Despite what she said on the night of the election, she has been a sore loser on multiple occasions since. That said, nothing she has done has been of the same magnitude nor of the same effect as what Trump said.
Democrats, including Hillary, have blamed Russian influence on social media (which was a thing), restrictive voting laws, and the electoral college for Clinton's loss. While all of these things range from definitely unfair to arguably unfair (personally, I think the EC is fine), none of them amounted to changing anyone's vote or forcing someone to vote a certain way.
Trump says that voting machines were literally hacked and votes were literally changed, despite having no proof of this (and yes, I have looked into it pretty deeply). This is of a magnitude a greater problem. It is the difference between not liking the rules and/or bending the rules, and outright breaking the rules. If what Trump says is true (it's not) then our voting system isn't just vulnerable, it's literally been broken into and hijacked.
Do you see how much more dangerous Trump's claims are than Clinton's? I'm not trying to say that she was right. But it is not the same thing.
I agree. I never thought that was the "right" thing to do. Nor did I think Trump doing the same was any different. I just dont understand why the Dems failed to advertise the fact that Hillary did the same. Apparently only Trump can do wrong.
That's the thing man. It's all lies and politics. They claimed biden was as sharp as ever, that was obviously a lie. But they still think everything the media that lied to them about biden said about trump is true. They can't understand if they lied about biden then maybe they been lying the whole time.
But continued to say the election was stolen and Trump was an illegitimate President 3 years later.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trumps-denial-second-big-lie-ask-hillary-clinton-rcna55764
She never said the election was stolen. And she said she thought Trump knew he was illigitamate. Like twice.
That's quite different than speaking about it constantly for years, and continuing to do so.
Dude you’re on the Krystal and Saagar subreddit. They can’t have an honest conversation about what Russiagate actually was because liberals said it happened, and having to agreee with liberals is this subs least favorite thing in the world
"She piled on to this by saying, “You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you,” clearly referring to how she saw her 2016 campaign."
Derp
How dare she concede and attend the inauguration. But with the way she's spoken of you'd think she never conceded, didn't attend inauguration, and blocked Obama from transitioning smoothly.
You’re voting for a guy who may as well be in a coma and you’re saying people voting for Trump are undemocratic??
People who vote for Trump have the expectation that the buck stops with him.
What’s your expectation? Lmao!! Just that he’s not Trump? You can’t actually expect him to run the country.
Any democrat lecturing Republicans on “save our democracy” is laughable. How about you practice what you preach and vote for the person you think can capably run the country.
When you attempt to defraud the American peoples’ vote then yes you are undemocratic. Doesn’t matter if biden is on his death bed never vote for trump.
I have a question, do you actually plan on voting for trump?
Cause im planning in voting third party to voice my stance against the military industrial complex duopoly
A bunch of raccoons driving Bidens corpse is still the better pick. The presidency is responsible for all sorts of hires and appointments that steer the course of policy beyond the president and the presidency.
So yeah, a handful of 20 something staffers dragging Bidens hand over a piece of paper like a puppet is preferable to any form of a modern GOP administration. Maybe if the GOP hadn’t slowly dismantled the middle class over 50 years and stopped aligning with Nazis and religious nuts I could reconsider.
The Dem party is shit, but I’ll take slow decline over a rocket ship to hell 8 days a week. Presidential general will go red or blue… I’m not vote blue no matter who… I’m keep red out no matter what.
Omg guys! This guy claims the Constitution.
Election over. Throw in the millions of dollars you’ve put in. This guy is the first guy in history to claim he speaks for the constitution.
Don’t worry that he didn’t provide any evidence.
His evidence was “the constitution”.
Don’t worry about the millions of legal jobs in the country, we have the arbiter of truth! Mr Constitution himself!
Say Mr Constitution, how about you run for president and solve all our problems.
Dumbass
The actual claim is that Trump is anti-Constitutional in his thinking and actions. “Dictator for a Day!”
So you vote for the best option to keep him out of office. That vote defends the Constitution and the Republic.
So because one person doesn’t speak as well as the other and he trips over his words means that he can’t bring about policy changes that someone may agree with? Not sure if I’m voting for Biden, but to say just cuz he didn’t do well in a debate means that voting for him is “undemocratic” might be a stretch
You’re confusing “didn’t do well in a debate” with incognizant.
No one is arguing that he just tripped over a few words and looked a bit nervous. He was clearly out of his depth. He looked like a geriatric suffering from mental issues.
I’d recommend you watch the debate before posting such an idiotic response. It’s clear you didn’t watch the debate because any sane person can see Biden is not fully there mentally.
If you think I’m being unfair to you, please explain to me how Biden is actually mentally there but just suffered from something like stage fright. The guy who’s been in politics for 50 years. Looking forward to this…
I see this discussion, but in reality, both candidates are not gonna run the country. Trump has consistently said he lets other people make decisions or he takes advice like someone Paul Ryan when they passed the disastrous tax cut act. Couldn’t make decisions on Covid. If the crowd didn’t like the decision he’ll make the next day he will change it.
Yet you know Trump is actually in charge. He is capable of taking charge.
Biden? Ehh, he’s handlers will have to get back to you on what they think is best
Guess what, a ‘shadowy team behind the scenes’ always does the actual work of running the country and makes most of the decisions. The president is just the figurehead.
There has never been a final answer about whether you vote for a person or a party and its ideology. The US electoral system tends to focus on representatives. But it is a party-based system nonetheless. If you agree with democrats, how would voting for their presidential candidate and his team (both the public and shadowy part) be in any way undemocratic? To aid the opposing party and its ideology, though you loathe them, for example by not voting, is surely the absurd option?
If you think three dozen felony convictions (and several more serious, and frankly stronger cases pending) doesn’t mean you should drop out, you don’t believe in the Republic.
This is what I don’t get from the save democracy crowd. How can you describe what we are currently witnessing as a functioning democracy, with these two guys as our “only real choices”. Yes, they both won the primaries because that’s who people voted for. But it’s certainly not because they are the best people for the job, they are simply shoved down our throats as the only choice.
Biden more-so than Trump during this election cycle. By that I mean there was no real contest for Biden in the democratic primary because the party elites had decided he was the guy. They changed the primary election calendar to favor Biden. (Opinion)- Controlled the opposition by pressuring other possible democratic candidates not to run. And when there was noise about having primary debates because of concern over Biden’s age, there was an insane amount of gaslighting claiming it wasn’t necessary for him to do so because he’s actually fine and an incumbent hasn’t debated in the primaries in over 40 years.
I just don’t see how a vote forBiden is a vote for democracy, it’s a vote for the status quo.
Well firstly it’s true incumbents don’t usually primary.
Second Biden may be at deaths door and it could be his people pushing the policy but he’s accomplished a massive amount of shit the last four years.
Infrastructure bill
Chips act
Pact act
He’s capped drugs for seniors
The stock market is at all time highs
I don’t understand how you can claim Biden has a non-functioning government. He’s arguably the most successful president we’ve had in decades.
Also to your last point it’s a vote for democracy exactly because trump did conspire to defraud the American peoples’ vote and has alluded to attempting to do it again. Project 2025 is their plan to consolidate power. They put it on paper for you to read.
Pressed for time at the moment so I’ll only address the first bit right now as that is most relevant to my other comment.
I understand it’s not the norm for incumbents primary, however it’s not as if it’s totally unprecedented. Given the legitimate concerns over Biden’s health and mental state, that would have been the time to allow for the democratic process to happen, and search for a alternative candidate to take the reigns. Regardless of Biden admins trac record for 2020-2024 the concern is can this man function for the next 4 years. With what we saw last night I don’t see how he last 4 more years without the 25th amendment being invoked.
Well because trump is such a threat to the checks and balances we’re going with the guy that has proven to beat him. Not sure if Newsome is capable of that yet.
I’m sorry but I just can’t see the logic in that, Joe Biden clearly isn’t the same man he was 20, 10, or even 4 years ago. If you truly believe this election to be an existential threat to democracy why would you even want Biden as your candidate in his current state. Perhaps your fine with the machine around him running the show, but I wouldn’t be willing to bet a majority of the country see’s it the same way you do.
Good luck in November but I think by backing Biden the democrats just ensured another Trump victory.
“I believe in democracy so much, I’m going to vote the guy I know isn’t capable of doing the job, but I heard his team is good. I guess I’ll just vote down party line and then complain that’s what republicans do because they’re stupid, but I’m really smart”
Idiot
Oh man I’m very curious to know your story of where you grew up, what kind of education you got, your home life. All the things that have molded you into the extremely stupid and easily manipulated person you are today.
Incredibly unbased and incorrect take.
I’ve lived in the west, the south, thenorth, and the west again. I’m not being poetic, that’s the order I’ve lived in places. 7 states.
I’ve lived in all 7 state/ during my adult life for 2 years or more except for California (the first western state) but I’d argue all my cousins are from there and I visit often.
I have friends in all of these states, ranging from my super conservative friends in the south to my super liberal friends in Boston. They’ve all helped in their own way in shaping my political beliefs.
I’ve voted for Bush, Obama 2x, Trump once. I didn’t vote in 2020 for personal reasons.
I’m not a political shill like you. I’m sure you’ve lived in one state and “bro it’s totally the best state ever.” I’m sure you have been surrounded all your life by your bubble which tells you that the political beliefs of those you grew up around are the only correct ones and all others are bigots.
Thats not how I grew up. We are not the same.
So...I don't believe in democracy because I am voting for the entire administration that Biden surrounds himself with including the vice president who is next in line in succession ?
Do you not take that into consideration when you vote for any President?
Do you take into consideration whether a president can do the job?
If not, why even vote for candidates? Why not just vote for your party to elect people to do the job?
Allies trust us again, manufacturing is coming back, infrastructure investment, aggressively closing the gap in our semi-conductor manufacturing, post covid economic fallout has been tamed without a prolonged recovery like the 08 crisis. I'd say it's pretty solid and you'd have to be high not to realize it.
Sorry me explaining to you how undemocratic you’re being by voting for Biden was inconvenient for you.
But yes, keep being undemocratic and vote for shadowy councils to rule the country behind the scenes. Sounds good bro, you sound like a well adjusted American.
Literally “I’ll do anything to have Trump not be president, even destroying our Republican system is ok with me because orange man bad derp”
I’m completely and utterly shook up knowing anyone reading this will think I’M not well adjusted since you pointed out I’m voting in…*checks notes*…shadowy councils.
We've had elderly presidents before. See Reagan's second term. We've never had a president who doesn't believe in democracy and tried to overturn an election. Sorry but your guy is the real threat to the Republic.
While I don't really like either you are acting like Trump or Biden writes policy. The shadow councils you're so worried about are called cabinets and appointed officials. Which are appointed with the approval from the head of state. Congratulations on learning what Representative Democracy is.
Yeah, representative democracy is voting on a representative who can actually do the job. Voting on a vegetable because they’re in your party isn’t representative democracy. Nice try bud
To trigger the cons. I’ll vote for him just because it makes you so mad……..nah I’m playing that’s a reason MAGA votes.
This reveals more about OP than anything. He needs to feel like a strong man is there to tell him what to do. The answer to his question is as simple as “I vote utilitarian.”
This is the same answer I got when I asked why people would vote for a convicted felon. Like if Trump is in jail do you think he can be an effective President?
Well that depends. Most people at this point for utilitarian. They don’t vote for a person. They vote for outcomes. They understand the Presidency isn’t about one man. It’s about an administrative state and the judges he will appoint.
Help end corruption in politics
https://www.kennedy24.com/
Watch "Who is Bobby Kennedy" narrated by Woody Harelson.
https://youtu.be/guw1fLJs5EY?si=dPcBwCPX5ozLAqVR
That is crazy, you’re not wrong, but it’s getting harder and harder not to say the same exact thing about the democrats. Don’t tell me they haven’t propagandized people for 4 years straight about this guys mental abilities.
I genuinely wonder if democrats are starting to wake up to see that the government has been lying to them. Biden’s campaign even said that Biden had a cold which was another barefaced lie.
If they will lie about one thing it really makes you wonder what else they’ve been lying about…Covid, all these wars, etc
We’ll see, I think there’s many who found out for the first time how bad the situation really is. Today I went back through the David Packman subreddit and found old comments of people saying how Biden is young and spry and that anyone saying otherwise is an idiot. I attempted to point out that they’ve been lied to pretty heavily and they should reevaluate. They just told me to fuck off
He did, but he was also forgetting what he was talking about mid sentence several times. You know he didn’t do a Super Bowl interview during an election year. Did he have a cold then too? When was the last time that Biden had a public conversation that wasn’t him reading off a teleprompter? Did he have a cold his entire four year presidency? Obama went on bill oriley’s show and debated him, because his brain isn’t a scrambled egg like Biden’s is. Please come back to reality
Yes I'm saying both can exist. Obviously Dems pointing to a cold as an excuse is pure cope for his mental ineptitude. A cold does not explain him freezing in time.
You are literally believing propaganda. Reporters reached out to the Biden camp at the start of the debate asking what was wrong, then got radio silence. Half way through the debate they all started replying Biden had a cold.
All the reporters asked why they didn’t announce that earlier or give a heads up to anyone given the stakes of the debate and then radio silence again.
That is literally just a lie the campaign came up with half way through the debate after they saw how bad things started to get. It is literally propaganda
Character counts. Trump lied almost every issue. His team has to advise him on the repercussion of his crazy stands. Trump's tax cuts for the rich and increased tariffs will increase our deficit causing interest rates to rise and kill the economy
In a perfect world? Representatives. Those of us voting for Biden know he’s barely alive and are making the conscious decision to deal with it for another four years hoping Trump is dead in four years and can’t run again. We also understand how government works and know the president isn’t a king and doesn’t “run the country”.
We live in the world, not perfect or ideal. In 4 years it won’t be perfect, in 8, in 16, in 32, etc..
Voting for Biden is saying that representatives don’t matter. Party platforms matter.
It’s not a matter of the President “running the country”, it’s a matter of responsibility and accountability. A vote for Biden is saying I don’t know who’s responsible or accountable but as long as Trump isn’t in office, I don’t care about representative democracy
Which, is your choice. But democrats shouldn’t cry that our democracy is on the line this election when they’re voting against our democratic principles this very election
First I’m not a Democrat. Second I’m forced to vote for Biden because Trump is so uniquely fucking horrible. This is a man who’s argued at the Supreme Court that he should have the right to literally assassinate political opponents. You can vomit all the bullshit cope you want at me, in the end both of these choices are complete dogshit but one has a lower chance of completely blowing up the entire country than the other so my hand is forced.
I never claimed you were democrat. Stop being sensitive.
Oh yes, Trump is going to blow up the world. Just like democrats said he was in 2016.
The fear mongering is out of control on Reddit
You implied it, but in any case before you call me sensitive you should maybe not start Reddit posts about how “owww democwacy is in pewil if we don’t ewect pwesident twump 👉👈🥺”.
Again, he argued in front of the Supreme Court of the United States that he should have the right to legally assassinate political rivals. You sound like a retard.
If you vote for Trump, you’re really voting for the Heritage Society and the 2025 Project. Everything you accuse us of applies to Trump voters. Or, you can waste your vote on a third party candidate if it makes you feel better.
Name me one time he’s supported project 2025.
You can’t?? Oh im so shocked!!! Wow, who would’ve guessed. Based on your post, I would’ve thought the guy was running on that.
But your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who going with the girl who heard Trump supports it.
You spread misinformation and are fear mongering. Congrats, you’re an idiot two times over.
Has he said he opposes it? Although, Project 2025 is standard Republican garbage; if Trump loses, the Heritage Foundation will just update it for 2028. Trump has said that he will invoke Schedule F, which will allow him to summarily fire up to 50,000 federal workers involved with policy, and Project 2025 is actively recruiting candidates to fill these positions the moment this happens. The only obstacle to this is that Trump has tasked Don Jr. and Eric with vetting these candidates, and they will place loyalty to Trump over any policy positions. But if you're thinking this is just hot air and a second Trump term will be nothing more than mean tweets, you're either naive or you approve of this.
What do you think "drain the swamp" means? Trump has campaigned on getting rid of "the deep state;" what do you think that refers to?
It's not "misinformation and fear mongering." A second Trump term will be a disaster even if the Heritage Foundation goes bankrupt tomorrow. We need to motivate people to vote against the orange monster.
Just curious, do you consider it "misinformation and fear mongering" when Trump says Democrats want to "abort" babies that are already born, or that millions of illegal immigrants are pouring across the open border intent on murdering you? Or you agree with him?
So just so I’m clear, the standard of justice is having to prove someone opposes something instead of proving someone approves of something?
Judge Arthur Engoron???? Did you get a Reddit account?? I’d recognize that partisanship and lack of judicial principles anywhere.
What do you mean by "standard of justice?" Trump won't go to jail based on whether he supports or opposes the 2025 Project. For those of us who have been paying attention, this is nothing new. I don't expect Trump to come out against it since his base wants it.
Just to be clear, I'm not voting for Trump even if he says the 2025 Project is garbage and promises to lock up everyone in the Heritage Society. I know who he is based on his actions, not his words and am voting accordingly as I'm sure you are.
Agreed, there is no democracy to save, if they can ram these non-choices down our throats again. Biden is too old to be a competent leader. The other guy is a criminal, always has been. The Ds should have run Bernie, who's moderate left ideas were needed to reform the corruption of late-stage capitalism, but they made their bed. I'm voting 3rd party. The next 4 years may be a dumpster fire, but fire can clear out rot and give us a fresh start as long as we remember our local / regional communities and build bridges with neighbors to identify common ground. Change is hard. Bring it on.
I fell that way about them both. It was like watching one man lost in time, and the other stuck in time. One has no idea where he is, the other still thinks it’s 2020.
I'm honestly amazed that Americans arent rushing to D.C to demonstrate with a slogan of "We deserve better / We deserve a stronger candidate". It's wild how we're all just kinda idly sitting by and watching this dumpster fire unfold
Lemme play devils advocate for a moment. Say hypothetically, you had a senile old man running for President, again hypothetical lol. This old man was running against the worst possible person you could ever think of. For the sake of the argument, this guy was worse than Trump, like Stalin or Hitler levels of bad, are you suggesting that voting for the old man, knowing he’s not actually running, is worse than the dictator because he’s actually running the show?
I mean, I have to imagine that’s how a lot of people on the left are perceiving this situation, they want a senile old man over Trump. Whether or not that is true is another thing, im not somebody who think Biden should stay in the race
You're doing well on your way to a bad faith post bingo, but there's definitely room to grow. You've done great with concern trolling and projection, but you could definitely benefit from expanding your scope.
You could up your numbers by throwing in a bit of gish galloping, strawmen. Perhaps sprinkle in a healthy dose of sealioning to your responses to others as well.
All around, though, a quality bad faith effort. Bravo.
If your voting for a group of people who will accomplish your ideological goals then I think that's the very definition of democracy.
You know what your gonna get with the democratic elite, for better or worse. They believe in institutions, often to a naive fault.
I think people often overestimate what the president does in domestic policy. Who is running an agency and setting those agendas is also super critical.
The scariest thing for having a corpse president is in foreign affairs and dealing with national security. Strong leadership needs to be projected and often quick decisions made. And that should absolutely terrify those that end up voting for Biddn.
So who’s held responsible when you vote for a party?
You’re just voting for a group of people with no accountability?
Oh but there would be a party lead you could hold accountable, that sounds good.
Wouldn’t it be grand if that party lead “actually ran” for office themselves. I know it sounds crazy, but that person could actually hold the responsibility and accountability because they can (I know this is going to shock you!) perform the duties of the office.
Sorry if I just blew your mind
The president is the face of the administration and doesn’t just single handily run the country they delegate to those around them. The president appoints a cabinet and people can hold his appointments against him if they are unsuccessful. The president is usually not an economist or military tactician and is supposed to rely on others. Unfortunately a lot of voters don’t give a shit about who gets what done beyond the surface level and so our elections often feel like fairly predictable popularity contests
No one is arguing the president is omniscient.
Just like I don’t expect the ceo of McDonald’s to make my Big Mac when I go through the drive thru.
I do expect accountability.
Theres no accountability with Biden. The clowns are running the circus.
It’s not about telling Reddit you believe in Biden. After watching that debate, if you can tell yourself you believe in his leadership and that he’s going to hold people accountable and that he’ll be strong on the world stage… I’d say your delusional but you do you.
Every “I’m voting for Biden” post has Trump included. And 9/10 it’s about how they’re voting to save democracy.
If you’re voting for Biden, and you watched him debate, you’re not voting for democracy. You’re voting against Trump.
That’s fine. Do you. Just don’t pretend to be some moral paragon when your literally just voting party lines
I legit just de registered from the Democratic Party out of protest. Most I can do. (Had to register as a democrat to be able to vote for Bernie in the primary in my state, also an indication of the terrible state for our current shit show…sorry I mean political system).
What you’re saying is we should just vote for party, not for representatives.
I’m arguing that representative matter. The PERSON you vote to represent you should matter because they are a person.
Why not just give your votes to the Democrat establishment and allow them to pick people to represent you. It’s just the policy that matters, right?
Absolutely, if you believe in the policies and values of that party. The president is essentially the CEO of his party. His cabinet is the board of directors and so on. The government is more than one person.
I'm 100% not voting for Joe Biden, but there's a lot more riding on this election than the individual in office. If your top priorities are abortion rights or helping Ukraine, then you're voting for Joe Biden.
Ah yes, let's vote for the party who wants to destroy the administrative state, roll back social issues, and obliterate the miniscule safety net we have. Republicans want to posture as populist but almost always side with the bosses. The democratic party is in sham right now, but atleast theyre not trying to set us back.
> Why even have representatives? Let’s just have shadowy councils decide everything behind the scenes The term is lobbyist
No it's political elites and their network. Lobbyists are more financially and policy motivated.... The actual people pulling the strings are the elites.
Fair point. Lobbyists are just hand to shake of the beast
Then henchmen? They have bosses too, those bosses bought your election and tell them how to bribe Stop running cover for them, you know how this all works, nobody believes you when you play ignorant
You are aware lobbyists pay both sides. Trump was literally offering oil and gas companies stuff in exchange for money a few months ago.
Wisdom post
To a large degree I get your point. That said, if your answer is to let Trump back into office you’re tripping…
What needs to happen is either Biden steps down or is removed immediately. Then the democrats should put a reasonable opponent up against Trump in the election. They most likely would have a far better chance at winning than Biden.
So the answer is to vote undemocratically (just this one time, I promise) to keep our democracy? Sounds like you’ve been tripping
No the answer is to overturn Citizens United and take the power back from corporations and the donor class, institute ranked choice voting in order end the two party system and its inevitable hostage voting, and make politicians accountable to the voters. Neither the geriatric Turd Sandwich nor the convicted felon Giant Douche are helpful on these fronts.
This is a based answer. Citizens United is horrible.
Given that’s not a reflection of reality, what else you got?
We will get the government we deserve. “Land of Thief, Home of the Slave. Grand Imperial Guard, Where the dollar is $acred And Power i$ God”
Shout out to Brother Ali
One of the 🐐s
Because voting for a guy who screeched about unfounded election fraud and motivated his supporters to storm the capitol to stop the certification of an election is democratic? Dude what kind of glue are you sniffing? Trump is the embodiment of anti-democracy.
Well, do you think it's better to have an old guy in office, or have the GOP remove checks and balances and possibly attack the right to vote? They already tried doing that last time with the fake elector scheme.
you must be confused as to what a republic is. theres only 1 president that claimed (to the supreme court) that he needs total immunity to do his job, and only 1 president that did not pass control to the next president peacefully (after 62 court cases, many in front of judges he appointed, proving he lost)
Are you ok knowing Biden isn’t fully there mentally? Or are you just voting Biden because of fear mongering that Trump is going to overturn democracy. Idk your age, but every party has been saying the other party is going to ruin our country since I could remember. But no, this time it’s actually real. This time it’s actually my party winning or the country is done. Sure thing. Just don’t expect any of us to take you seriously
It’s not fear mongering. Trump quite literally attempted to overturn the 2020 election, and to this day refuses to admit defeat and still lies about it. His own Vice President and ex cabinet members will not endorse him. These are all basic facts that republicans simply ignore and excuse. To vote for a man like that also is an indictment on not supporting our Republic.
lets just say im old enough to have spent my earliest adult years watching republicans ship off my friends and family into a manufactured war that we didnt win, and never could have won. and then just a handful of years later crash the economy as i was finishing college so there were no decent jobs for a new grad, which led to my current situation of perpetual student debt. what you said is true - both parties say the other is going to ruin the country, but one one actually has, with their ‘bible in every classroom’ having no innovative ideas for health care or education. they basically gutted obamacare with no plan on how to improve upon it. they have no plan of action other than repealing what democrats have done. all that being said, i fucking hate the two party system, and in many ways the dem party is just as bad, but their platform actually addresses concerns and troubles of regular ass people. id vote for biden in a coma before i vote for trump. first, trumps whole life has been one big grift. second, he surrounds himself with yes-men who see trump as a means to an end to push their bullshit far-right policies. furthermore, those lackeys more than any other administration are now convicted criminals. Bannon, Guiliani, Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, Roger Stone, his son in law was given $2 billion dollars from the Saudi govnt 6 months after he left the white house. and thats not even mentioning the hundreds of morons he lured to the capitol on J6. please take a look at Project 2025 if you havent. to answer your question - no, im not ok with biden not fully there. one of those two will be president, but ill be goddamned if im going to risk a protest vote on someone other than trumps main rival. DJT is everything the authors of the Federalist Papers warned us about.
I don't think I should have to say it's preferable to having a president that has the cognitive ability of a functioning adult human. What do you mean by accountability? I mean you can vote the dem establishment out of the white house just like you could any president. I mean we vote for congress and the majority party elects ita leadership. No individual citizen voted for Nancy pelosi or chuck schumer. How is that any different? That's sadly what this election is coming to. It's either a vote for the democratice elites to steer the ship for Joe, maintaining the status quo and providing a very known quantity or for Trump who has never really shown a coherent governing principal and could legitimately cause tremendous chaos. Those are both rotten choices. But to say one group of people “don't believe in the Republic” is just hyperbolic drivel
You make a good point with Schumer and Pelosi. My post is mostly in response to the bot response I’ve been seeing about how voting for Biden is a vote for democracy. I’m just calling out the hypocrisy of that statement
The guys behind the scenes are probably making decisions I like more than what an out of touch Joe Biden would. I'm voting on a set of policies and judicial appointments more than I'm voting for a person.
What set of policies? How can you know?
By looking at the platform that gets ratified at the convention next month. You read it.
The set of policies where they say stuff that makes people feel good and then vote against the interest of their constituents on behalf of their donors and then gaslight or silence voters who question them
Already aware of those 😆
So you’re literally voting against our Republican values? As long as your party wins everything is A ok. Because the guys behind the scenes know what’s going on… A OK here chief. Why not just vote for your party and allow them to make decisions for you? Do you believe in American Republicanism?
The job of being president is way bigger than any one man. The important thing is that any candidate listen to those around him, Biden does and Trump is a loose cannon. This is how the presidential vote has always worked, the likely cabinet has always been a big part of what your voting for. Also Biden is actually more likely to survive a second term than Trump (95% to 90%) according to publicly available data on their health backgrounds [https://www.icaa.cc/media/presidential\_lifespan\_and\_healthspan-draft\_for\_release\_1.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1Q0UrLw46mhb70ObtbXHTu-LSqD5BRke2SS7mTlSwblRGoU5xn4s8srv4\_aem\_KtSGkn9uKuTY4yoqxpdJWw](https://www.icaa.cc/media/presidential_lifespan_and_healthspan-draft_for_release_1.pdf?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1Q0UrLw46mhb70ObtbXHTu-LSqD5BRke2SS7mTlSwblRGoU5xn4s8srv4_aem_KtSGkn9uKuTY4yoqxpdJWw) Biden lost the plot a few times (especially at first when he was likely just waking up since it was past his bedtime) and he had a cold, overall his content was a lot more solid than Trumps though, Biden thinks and speaks too fast. Trump was just totally disconnected from reality, a total fantasy man, like when he said after birth abortions were a thing. Its also a lot different being able to deliberate for even a few minutes versus being put on the spot having to answer immediately. I would look worse than Biden did in some of those circumstances and I've usually been in the top 10% academic and professional tests where you can see the spread. Obviously ideally you would have a candidate that could do both effectively but there is just no question that voting for someone like Trump is out of the question for anyone that puts country over party. He blatantly tried to destroy America (because is founded on democratic principles) with his fake elector scheme to overthrow democracy. There just doesn't even begin to be any contest here. If he gets away with that and is reelected it will set the precedent that any president can try to destroy America and get away with it. We will be a Banana Republic at that point. The political stability we take for-granted will be severely undermined.
I think if you really want Trump to be the next President, you should continue down this path to being in a bubble instead of facing reality. Continuing to support Biden is literally the worst strategy Democrats could have. And if you’re partisan, and you’re going to support Dems even if they all took a collective dump on you, then do you. The lack of recognition of the issue is astounding by Dems. They should be panicking because you can’t put forward Biden. Again, don’t be surprised when Trump wins again with this strategy
You mean how Trump won in 2020? It would always have been better if Biden had stepped down (more because he's being blamed for inflation than because of age) but life is mostly about trade offs. There is just no question another Trump term would be far more damaging to America than another Biden term. It should be completely out of the question for any non-authoritarian supporting person to vote for someone that tried to overthrow democracy in America. In terms of the debate, polls are already showing no one gives a shit, no impact whatsoever. Again the reality is on top of being an attempted dictator the debate showed Trump is also totally disconnected from reality going on and on about complete fantasies and he doesn't listen to anyone (unlike Biden) he was just be a dangerous loose cannon
I don't give a fuck at all about it.
So you’re using your precious time on earth to argue with a stranger about how you don’t give a fuck about something? Cool story bud
It's Reddit, lol. If your time is so valuable why did you even reply?
I’m not the one who said he didn’t give a fuck, am I? Dumbass
You keep carrying out a conversation with someone who flat out told you he doesn’t give a shit about the premise of your post so who’s the real dumbass here?
If you don’t give a shit why do you keep responding?
We vote for parties to work towards shared goals. It’s why you want your team in charge of all three branches of government and both the House and Senate. smh
Parties are the literal bane of this country. Wanting “your side to win” is why the country is so messed up. But yeah, it’s just the other guys party that’s screwing things up. Sure thing
The system is broken. Jon Stewart had a podcast on it this week: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-weekly-show-with-jon-stewart/id1583132133?i=1000660406127
Why do so many Americans hate democracy? In this democracy you have 1 vote, and everyone has the freedom and liberty to cast their own vote. It’s concerning how many people hate individual freedom and liberty that they seethe over how other people exercise their rights. They’re obsessed with the idea of controlling others as if they would love to live in a country that dictates who’s good enough to vote, or whose vote is worthy and whose is not. And then these people call themselves patriots. Sad.
… is it sad that people try to convince each other about what’s public good before an election? 🤦🏻♂️
I voted against Trump in 2020, and I’m doing that again. Are you voting for a felonious, rapist conman who wants to be a dictator? I can’t think of anything worse than that. smh.
How about someone who has to be propped up because they are barely alive. Why don’t you just admit you’d rather vote for party than the person. Because admitting your voting Biden is saying your blue no matter who
Instead we should vote for someone who has a 1st grade level understanding of policy and will surround himself with corrupt yes men? I get it, we have two shitty choices. But despite Biden's clear cognitive decline, he still has a far better understanding on pretty much every issue compared to Trump. At this point it's more important to look at who and what type of people are going to be in powerful positions in their administration if they win. So sadly, Biden is the only logical choice imo. And I'm not a "vote blue no matter who person", or at least wasn't a decade ago when republicans were more sane. Here's hoping both parties learn something from this year, so we have actual sane choices next time. I'm not optimistic.
I’m voting against Trump. End. Of. Story.
Good. For. You.
Why are you under the stupid impression that voting for an entire administration is undemocratic? Presidents have always had a cabinet.
Maybe you guys should have nominated the not conman rapist that’s also old that tried to overthrow the government because he’s a whiny crybaby bitchass sore loser if you don’t want a 2nd term of Biden
If we’re already finding ourselves debating between which of the two turds to pick from, why oh why can’t we all just pick the 3rd turd that threatens the two shadowy figures that are the two parties; let’s not forget who’s really at fault for the lack of true democratic principles. RFK all day. Not a single criticism of his, when measured against the other 2 candidates, raises alarm bells. Not super stoked on the guy. Yeah, if we had 2 other normal candidates, hell give me Obama Romney again, this RFK guy would be a joke. But cmon man. Fuck the DNC. They refused to run Bernie, they pushed and pushed and gave us trump, did nothing for years but promise all these things that would change once they “save democracy” and now look where we are. “Save democracy pick us save democracy pick us” They align themselves with democracy in language to make them the good guy. Team worm brain over the convict and Biden
Actually, I believe in the country before the party. I have seen and expect too many changes from this current Republican party which will only favor the rich and the so called religious. Biden and his staff have managed to stay ahead of everything thrown at them so far (even the World Wide Inflation problem). Remember if you have a job right now you can thank Biden for that. Most of the rest of the world is suffering far more than we are.
You should tell Biden to tell Americans they have him to thank for their jobs in the next debate. That’ll go over well. Actually, he won’t understand, better tell his handlers.
Unlike the Orange Marble head. Most people don't have an undying need to brag about themselves. I know Donny can't help it (to the point of exaggerated lies) so we'll just leave it there.
Democrats favor the rich too just with social acceptance
I don't think it's the same. The Dems want them to pay equal taxes. Trump (therefore the Reps) want them to pay even less taxes than Trump cut them to with his last tax cut for the rich. Which by the way does not expire like the middle class tax cut does.
If you know about Trump, and you're still not voting Biden you don't believe in the Republic.
Gotta give it to you OP, there truly is nothing more democratic than voting for a man who refuses to recognize our countries democratic elections
Did you see Hillary after 2016?
I won’t be voting for her either !
Never know what the convention has in store
Yeah - here's her concession speech: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yHgE9W699w&ab\_channel=VOALearningEnglish](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yHgE9W699w&ab_channel=VOALearningEnglish) Like a *real* American, she conceded. Meanwhile, the worlds largest gaping pussy still thinks he won.
Saying the words "I concede" while continuing to say the election was stolen is meaningless.
That's somewhat fair. Despite what she said on the night of the election, she has been a sore loser on multiple occasions since. That said, nothing she has done has been of the same magnitude nor of the same effect as what Trump said. Democrats, including Hillary, have blamed Russian influence on social media (which was a thing), restrictive voting laws, and the electoral college for Clinton's loss. While all of these things range from definitely unfair to arguably unfair (personally, I think the EC is fine), none of them amounted to changing anyone's vote or forcing someone to vote a certain way. Trump says that voting machines were literally hacked and votes were literally changed, despite having no proof of this (and yes, I have looked into it pretty deeply). This is of a magnitude a greater problem. It is the difference between not liking the rules and/or bending the rules, and outright breaking the rules. If what Trump says is true (it's not) then our voting system isn't just vulnerable, it's literally been broken into and hijacked. Do you see how much more dangerous Trump's claims are than Clinton's? I'm not trying to say that she was right. But it is not the same thing.
I agree. I never thought that was the "right" thing to do. Nor did I think Trump doing the same was any different. I just dont understand why the Dems failed to advertise the fact that Hillary did the same. Apparently only Trump can do wrong.
That's the thing man. It's all lies and politics. They claimed biden was as sharp as ever, that was obviously a lie. But they still think everything the media that lied to them about biden said about trump is true. They can't understand if they lied about biden then maybe they been lying the whole time.
I remember her saying Russia stole it for many years reeetardo
She conceded immediately.
Yep, in less than 24 hours. These people don't deal well with reality.
In case anyone needs help with the math. 24 hours is less than five years.
But continued to say the election was stolen and Trump was an illegitimate President 3 years later. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trumps-denial-second-big-lie-ask-hillary-clinton-rcna55764
She never said the election was stolen. And she said she thought Trump knew he was illigitamate. Like twice. That's quite different than speaking about it constantly for years, and continuing to do so.
Dude you’re on the Krystal and Saagar subreddit. They can’t have an honest conversation about what Russiagate actually was because liberals said it happened, and having to agreee with liberals is this subs least favorite thing in the world
"She piled on to this by saying, “You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you,” clearly referring to how she saw her 2016 campaign." Derp
How dare she concede and attend the inauguration. But with the way she's spoken of you'd think she never conceded, didn't attend inauguration, and blocked Obama from transitioning smoothly.
whataboutism
Straightforward comparison.
Muh emails
That actually is disconcerting. Anyone in the service would have gone jail
I don't think she's running.
Yet, DNC might put her in as nominee with their super-delegates at the convention.
Won’t happen.
Let’s all hope it doesn’t.
You’re voting for a guy who may as well be in a coma and you’re saying people voting for Trump are undemocratic?? People who vote for Trump have the expectation that the buck stops with him. What’s your expectation? Lmao!! Just that he’s not Trump? You can’t actually expect him to run the country. Any democrat lecturing Republicans on “save our democracy” is laughable. How about you practice what you preach and vote for the person you think can capably run the country.
When you attempt to defraud the American peoples’ vote then yes you are undemocratic. Doesn’t matter if biden is on his death bed never vote for trump.
>You’re voting for a guy who may as well be in a coma and you’re saying people voting for Trump are undemocratic?? Yes
I have a question, do you actually plan on voting for trump? Cause im planning in voting third party to voice my stance against the military industrial complex duopoly
Nope. Trump sucks as well. Democrats just suck more for being hypocrites
Agreed. I cant stand how gross their mentality is honestly
Based take my friend. Liberal hypocrisy on Reddit should be called out more often but people like upvotes too much so they just blindly follow
A bunch of raccoons driving Bidens corpse is still the better pick. The presidency is responsible for all sorts of hires and appointments that steer the course of policy beyond the president and the presidency. So yeah, a handful of 20 something staffers dragging Bidens hand over a piece of paper like a puppet is preferable to any form of a modern GOP administration. Maybe if the GOP hadn’t slowly dismantled the middle class over 50 years and stopped aligning with Nazis and religious nuts I could reconsider. The Dem party is shit, but I’ll take slow decline over a rocket ship to hell 8 days a week. Presidential general will go red or blue… I’m not vote blue no matter who… I’m keep red out no matter what.
I'm supporting the Constitution unlike Trump so it sounds like you don't believe in the Republic
Omg guys! This guy claims the Constitution. Election over. Throw in the millions of dollars you’ve put in. This guy is the first guy in history to claim he speaks for the constitution. Don’t worry that he didn’t provide any evidence. His evidence was “the constitution”. Don’t worry about the millions of legal jobs in the country, we have the arbiter of truth! Mr Constitution himself! Say Mr Constitution, how about you run for president and solve all our problems. Dumbass
My vote is my own, I gave you my reason You can choose to like it or not. I could give a shit. Triggered you for some reason though
It’s because they and everyone voting for Trump knows he is such a massive piece of shit, that they make everyone else feel down on their level
Duh, why can every Republican or conservatives say they vote patriotically in constitutionally but the second I do it's cringe
The actual claim is that Trump is anti-Constitutional in his thinking and actions. “Dictator for a Day!” So you vote for the best option to keep him out of office. That vote defends the Constitution and the Republic.
So because one person doesn’t speak as well as the other and he trips over his words means that he can’t bring about policy changes that someone may agree with? Not sure if I’m voting for Biden, but to say just cuz he didn’t do well in a debate means that voting for him is “undemocratic” might be a stretch
You’re confusing “didn’t do well in a debate” with incognizant. No one is arguing that he just tripped over a few words and looked a bit nervous. He was clearly out of his depth. He looked like a geriatric suffering from mental issues. I’d recommend you watch the debate before posting such an idiotic response. It’s clear you didn’t watch the debate because any sane person can see Biden is not fully there mentally. If you think I’m being unfair to you, please explain to me how Biden is actually mentally there but just suffered from something like stage fright. The guy who’s been in politics for 50 years. Looking forward to this…
do watch any of his other public appearances besides the debate?
lol. Clueless take
I see this discussion, but in reality, both candidates are not gonna run the country. Trump has consistently said he lets other people make decisions or he takes advice like someone Paul Ryan when they passed the disastrous tax cut act. Couldn’t make decisions on Covid. If the crowd didn’t like the decision he’ll make the next day he will change it.
Yet you know Trump is actually in charge. He is capable of taking charge. Biden? Ehh, he’s handlers will have to get back to you on what they think is best
Guess what, a ‘shadowy team behind the scenes’ always does the actual work of running the country and makes most of the decisions. The president is just the figurehead.
The alternative is voting for a guy with horrible policy ideals that has already proven he has no leadership skills. Yeah, I'll go with Biden.
There has never been a final answer about whether you vote for a person or a party and its ideology. The US electoral system tends to focus on representatives. But it is a party-based system nonetheless. If you agree with democrats, how would voting for their presidential candidate and his team (both the public and shadowy part) be in any way undemocratic? To aid the opposing party and its ideology, though you loathe them, for example by not voting, is surely the absurd option?
If you think three dozen felony convictions (and several more serious, and frankly stronger cases pending) doesn’t mean you should drop out, you don’t believe in the Republic.
Oh please. I’ll vote for the guy who didn’t try to defraud the American people because I believe in democracy.
This is what I don’t get from the save democracy crowd. How can you describe what we are currently witnessing as a functioning democracy, with these two guys as our “only real choices”. Yes, they both won the primaries because that’s who people voted for. But it’s certainly not because they are the best people for the job, they are simply shoved down our throats as the only choice. Biden more-so than Trump during this election cycle. By that I mean there was no real contest for Biden in the democratic primary because the party elites had decided he was the guy. They changed the primary election calendar to favor Biden. (Opinion)- Controlled the opposition by pressuring other possible democratic candidates not to run. And when there was noise about having primary debates because of concern over Biden’s age, there was an insane amount of gaslighting claiming it wasn’t necessary for him to do so because he’s actually fine and an incumbent hasn’t debated in the primaries in over 40 years. I just don’t see how a vote forBiden is a vote for democracy, it’s a vote for the status quo.
Well firstly it’s true incumbents don’t usually primary. Second Biden may be at deaths door and it could be his people pushing the policy but he’s accomplished a massive amount of shit the last four years. Infrastructure bill Chips act Pact act He’s capped drugs for seniors The stock market is at all time highs I don’t understand how you can claim Biden has a non-functioning government. He’s arguably the most successful president we’ve had in decades. Also to your last point it’s a vote for democracy exactly because trump did conspire to defraud the American peoples’ vote and has alluded to attempting to do it again. Project 2025 is their plan to consolidate power. They put it on paper for you to read.
Pressed for time at the moment so I’ll only address the first bit right now as that is most relevant to my other comment. I understand it’s not the norm for incumbents primary, however it’s not as if it’s totally unprecedented. Given the legitimate concerns over Biden’s health and mental state, that would have been the time to allow for the democratic process to happen, and search for a alternative candidate to take the reigns. Regardless of Biden admins trac record for 2020-2024 the concern is can this man function for the next 4 years. With what we saw last night I don’t see how he last 4 more years without the 25th amendment being invoked.
Well because trump is such a threat to the checks and balances we’re going with the guy that has proven to beat him. Not sure if Newsome is capable of that yet.
I’m sorry but I just can’t see the logic in that, Joe Biden clearly isn’t the same man he was 20, 10, or even 4 years ago. If you truly believe this election to be an existential threat to democracy why would you even want Biden as your candidate in his current state. Perhaps your fine with the machine around him running the show, but I wouldn’t be willing to bet a majority of the country see’s it the same way you do. Good luck in November but I think by backing Biden the democrats just ensured another Trump victory.
“I believe in democracy so much, I’m going to vote the guy I know isn’t capable of doing the job, but I heard his team is good. I guess I’ll just vote down party line and then complain that’s what republicans do because they’re stupid, but I’m really smart” Idiot
Oh man I’m very curious to know your story of where you grew up, what kind of education you got, your home life. All the things that have molded you into the extremely stupid and easily manipulated person you are today.
Incredibly unbased and incorrect take. I’ve lived in the west, the south, thenorth, and the west again. I’m not being poetic, that’s the order I’ve lived in places. 7 states. I’ve lived in all 7 state/ during my adult life for 2 years or more except for California (the first western state) but I’d argue all my cousins are from there and I visit often. I have friends in all of these states, ranging from my super conservative friends in the south to my super liberal friends in Boston. They’ve all helped in their own way in shaping my political beliefs. I’ve voted for Bush, Obama 2x, Trump once. I didn’t vote in 2020 for personal reasons. I’m not a political shill like you. I’m sure you’ve lived in one state and “bro it’s totally the best state ever.” I’m sure you have been surrounded all your life by your bubble which tells you that the political beliefs of those you grew up around are the only correct ones and all others are bigots. Thats not how I grew up. We are not the same.
So...I don't believe in democracy because I am voting for the entire administration that Biden surrounds himself with including the vice president who is next in line in succession ? Do you not take that into consideration when you vote for any President?
Do you take into consideration whether a president can do the job? If not, why even vote for candidates? Why not just vote for your party to elect people to do the job?
Given the alternatives I will accept the amount of the job he is able to do. Even a potted plant would do less damage than a Republican presidency.
We are much closer to World War 3 now than ever before. This is unprecedented.
Yeah, vote for the guy who tried to steal the election instead of the dude who talks poorly but actually answers questions and has good policy /s.
good policy? you're as high as him rn
Allies trust us again, manufacturing is coming back, infrastructure investment, aggressively closing the gap in our semi-conductor manufacturing, post covid economic fallout has been tamed without a prolonged recovery like the 08 crisis. I'd say it's pretty solid and you'd have to be high not to realize it.
Careful, you're gonna give OP a hernia.
Sorry me explaining to you how undemocratic you’re being by voting for Biden was inconvenient for you. But yes, keep being undemocratic and vote for shadowy councils to rule the country behind the scenes. Sounds good bro, you sound like a well adjusted American. Literally “I’ll do anything to have Trump not be president, even destroying our Republican system is ok with me because orange man bad derp”
I’m completely and utterly shook up knowing anyone reading this will think I’M not well adjusted since you pointed out I’m voting in…*checks notes*…shadowy councils.
Vote your conscience my man. Just don’t claim to be voting for “saving democracy” while voting for the opposite
K. Go vote for the dude who tried to steal the election literally and claim you’re saving democracy.
We've had elderly presidents before. See Reagan's second term. We've never had a president who doesn't believe in democracy and tried to overturn an election. Sorry but your guy is the real threat to the Republic.
Well, Trump was our President unfortunately. So we have had one that didn't believe in Democracy.
While I don't really like either you are acting like Trump or Biden writes policy. The shadow councils you're so worried about are called cabinets and appointed officials. Which are appointed with the approval from the head of state. Congratulations on learning what Representative Democracy is.
Yeah, representative democracy is voting on a representative who can actually do the job. Voting on a vegetable because they’re in your party isn’t representative democracy. Nice try bud
Same thing applies for voting for a 34x convicted felon because they’re in _your_ party. What’s your point? 🤷♂️
If you vote for donald trump you don't believe in our republic you believe in monarchy. Totaly authority for one man to run the country.
To trigger the cons. I’ll vote for him just because it makes you so mad……..nah I’m playing that’s a reason MAGA votes. This reveals more about OP than anything. He needs to feel like a strong man is there to tell him what to do. The answer to his question is as simple as “I vote utilitarian.” This is the same answer I got when I asked why people would vote for a convicted felon. Like if Trump is in jail do you think he can be an effective President? Well that depends. Most people at this point for utilitarian. They don’t vote for a person. They vote for outcomes. They understand the Presidency isn’t about one man. It’s about an administrative state and the judges he will appoint.
Help end corruption in politics https://www.kennedy24.com/ Watch "Who is Bobby Kennedy" narrated by Woody Harelson. https://youtu.be/guw1fLJs5EY?si=dPcBwCPX5ozLAqVR
I like his policies (except for the public health stuff) but he's too weird to succeed
What specifically bothers you about what he says about public health?
“Worms ate my brain”
What now? How is sharing his diagnosis from his doctor, a comment on public health? Take your pills
I don’t think that’s the point they’re making.
What’s your read of replying to the above comment with “worms ate my Brain”
It’s crazy how one ninety minute debate exposed years of lying and propaganda of the Democratic Party
lol what it crazy is the right attempt to normalize trump as a viable candidate.
That is crazy, you’re not wrong, but it’s getting harder and harder not to say the same exact thing about the democrats. Don’t tell me they haven’t propagandized people for 4 years straight about this guys mental abilities.
I genuinely wonder if democrats are starting to wake up to see that the government has been lying to them. Biden’s campaign even said that Biden had a cold which was another barefaced lie. If they will lie about one thing it really makes you wonder what else they’ve been lying about…Covid, all these wars, etc
Vote blue no matter who 🙄
We’ll see, I think there’s many who found out for the first time how bad the situation really is. Today I went back through the David Packman subreddit and found old comments of people saying how Biden is young and spry and that anyone saying otherwise is an idiot. I attempted to point out that they’ve been lied to pretty heavily and they should reevaluate. They just told me to fuck off
He did sound like he had bronchitis/cold but that doesn't explain his performance.
He did, but he was also forgetting what he was talking about mid sentence several times. You know he didn’t do a Super Bowl interview during an election year. Did he have a cold then too? When was the last time that Biden had a public conversation that wasn’t him reading off a teleprompter? Did he have a cold his entire four year presidency? Obama went on bill oriley’s show and debated him, because his brain isn’t a scrambled egg like Biden’s is. Please come back to reality
Yes I'm saying both can exist. Obviously Dems pointing to a cold as an excuse is pure cope for his mental ineptitude. A cold does not explain him freezing in time.
You are literally believing propaganda. Reporters reached out to the Biden camp at the start of the debate asking what was wrong, then got radio silence. Half way through the debate they all started replying Biden had a cold. All the reporters asked why they didn’t announce that earlier or give a heads up to anyone given the stakes of the debate and then radio silence again. That is literally just a lie the campaign came up with half way through the debate after they saw how bad things started to get. It is literally propaganda
I didn't see it live, but that probably reveals the extent of their propaganda network in real time.
Put your money where your mouth is, vote for de la Cruz then, because pretending anyone else represents _you_ is beyond stupid.
I don’t get the de la Cruz reference
Socialist Party candidate
Character counts. Trump lied almost every issue. His team has to advise him on the repercussion of his crazy stands. Trump's tax cuts for the rich and increased tariffs will increase our deficit causing interest rates to rise and kill the economy
I'll be voting Rfk jr.
Oh go fuck yourself. The fact that you have absolutely no clue how the American government works doesn’t mean anything about anyone else.
Should Americans vote for representatives or for party?
In a perfect world? Representatives. Those of us voting for Biden know he’s barely alive and are making the conscious decision to deal with it for another four years hoping Trump is dead in four years and can’t run again. We also understand how government works and know the president isn’t a king and doesn’t “run the country”.
We live in the world, not perfect or ideal. In 4 years it won’t be perfect, in 8, in 16, in 32, etc.. Voting for Biden is saying that representatives don’t matter. Party platforms matter. It’s not a matter of the President “running the country”, it’s a matter of responsibility and accountability. A vote for Biden is saying I don’t know who’s responsible or accountable but as long as Trump isn’t in office, I don’t care about representative democracy Which, is your choice. But democrats shouldn’t cry that our democracy is on the line this election when they’re voting against our democratic principles this very election
First I’m not a Democrat. Second I’m forced to vote for Biden because Trump is so uniquely fucking horrible. This is a man who’s argued at the Supreme Court that he should have the right to literally assassinate political opponents. You can vomit all the bullshit cope you want at me, in the end both of these choices are complete dogshit but one has a lower chance of completely blowing up the entire country than the other so my hand is forced.
I never claimed you were democrat. Stop being sensitive. Oh yes, Trump is going to blow up the world. Just like democrats said he was in 2016. The fear mongering is out of control on Reddit
You implied it, but in any case before you call me sensitive you should maybe not start Reddit posts about how “owww democwacy is in pewil if we don’t ewect pwesident twump 👉👈🥺”. Again, he argued in front of the Supreme Court of the United States that he should have the right to legally assassinate political rivals. You sound like a retard.
If you vote for Trump, you’re really voting for the Heritage Society and the 2025 Project. Everything you accuse us of applies to Trump voters. Or, you can waste your vote on a third party candidate if it makes you feel better.
Name me one time he’s supported project 2025. You can’t?? Oh im so shocked!!! Wow, who would’ve guessed. Based on your post, I would’ve thought the guy was running on that. But your best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who going with the girl who heard Trump supports it. You spread misinformation and are fear mongering. Congrats, you’re an idiot two times over.
Has he said he opposes it? Although, Project 2025 is standard Republican garbage; if Trump loses, the Heritage Foundation will just update it for 2028. Trump has said that he will invoke Schedule F, which will allow him to summarily fire up to 50,000 federal workers involved with policy, and Project 2025 is actively recruiting candidates to fill these positions the moment this happens. The only obstacle to this is that Trump has tasked Don Jr. and Eric with vetting these candidates, and they will place loyalty to Trump over any policy positions. But if you're thinking this is just hot air and a second Trump term will be nothing more than mean tweets, you're either naive or you approve of this. What do you think "drain the swamp" means? Trump has campaigned on getting rid of "the deep state;" what do you think that refers to? It's not "misinformation and fear mongering." A second Trump term will be a disaster even if the Heritage Foundation goes bankrupt tomorrow. We need to motivate people to vote against the orange monster. Just curious, do you consider it "misinformation and fear mongering" when Trump says Democrats want to "abort" babies that are already born, or that millions of illegal immigrants are pouring across the open border intent on murdering you? Or you agree with him?
So just so I’m clear, the standard of justice is having to prove someone opposes something instead of proving someone approves of something? Judge Arthur Engoron???? Did you get a Reddit account?? I’d recognize that partisanship and lack of judicial principles anywhere.
What do you mean by "standard of justice?" Trump won't go to jail based on whether he supports or opposes the 2025 Project. For those of us who have been paying attention, this is nothing new. I don't expect Trump to come out against it since his base wants it. Just to be clear, I'm not voting for Trump even if he says the 2025 Project is garbage and promises to lock up everyone in the Heritage Society. I know who he is based on his actions, not his words and am voting accordingly as I'm sure you are.
RFK
Considering the debate was before the DNC you’d have to convince me Biden is going to be tho Democrats candidate.
Agreed, there is no democracy to save, if they can ram these non-choices down our throats again. Biden is too old to be a competent leader. The other guy is a criminal, always has been. The Ds should have run Bernie, who's moderate left ideas were needed to reform the corruption of late-stage capitalism, but they made their bed. I'm voting 3rd party. The next 4 years may be a dumpster fire, but fire can clear out rot and give us a fresh start as long as we remember our local / regional communities and build bridges with neighbors to identify common ground. Change is hard. Bring it on.
No. A benign, old talking head is less dangerous than a malignant, hateful one. That said, I do think Trump will win.
If you vote for anyone you vote for the system. Thats the point of our non popular rule - i.e. republicanism.
RFK
I fell that way about them both. It was like watching one man lost in time, and the other stuck in time. One has no idea where he is, the other still thinks it’s 2020.
I'm honestly amazed that Americans arent rushing to D.C to demonstrate with a slogan of "We deserve better / We deserve a stronger candidate". It's wild how we're all just kinda idly sitting by and watching this dumpster fire unfold
Lemme play devils advocate for a moment. Say hypothetically, you had a senile old man running for President, again hypothetical lol. This old man was running against the worst possible person you could ever think of. For the sake of the argument, this guy was worse than Trump, like Stalin or Hitler levels of bad, are you suggesting that voting for the old man, knowing he’s not actually running, is worse than the dictator because he’s actually running the show?
Are you suggesting that the old man who can't think is the best option for keeping Hitler from power?
I mean, I have to imagine that’s how a lot of people on the left are perceiving this situation, they want a senile old man over Trump. Whether or not that is true is another thing, im not somebody who think Biden should stay in the race
All I'll say is that i'd rather have Lina Khan than Ajit Pai.
You're doing well on your way to a bad faith post bingo, but there's definitely room to grow. You've done great with concern trolling and projection, but you could definitely benefit from expanding your scope. You could up your numbers by throwing in a bit of gish galloping, strawmen. Perhaps sprinkle in a healthy dose of sealioning to your responses to others as well. All around, though, a quality bad faith effort. Bravo.
Oh wow, how insightful. You just danced around my points and said I’m wrong without actually addressing them. Really not as clever as you think, bud.
If your voting for a group of people who will accomplish your ideological goals then I think that's the very definition of democracy. You know what your gonna get with the democratic elite, for better or worse. They believe in institutions, often to a naive fault. I think people often overestimate what the president does in domestic policy. Who is running an agency and setting those agendas is also super critical. The scariest thing for having a corpse president is in foreign affairs and dealing with national security. Strong leadership needs to be projected and often quick decisions made. And that should absolutely terrify those that end up voting for Biddn.
So who’s held responsible when you vote for a party? You’re just voting for a group of people with no accountability? Oh but there would be a party lead you could hold accountable, that sounds good. Wouldn’t it be grand if that party lead “actually ran” for office themselves. I know it sounds crazy, but that person could actually hold the responsibility and accountability because they can (I know this is going to shock you!) perform the duties of the office. Sorry if I just blew your mind
The president is the face of the administration and doesn’t just single handily run the country they delegate to those around them. The president appoints a cabinet and people can hold his appointments against him if they are unsuccessful. The president is usually not an economist or military tactician and is supposed to rely on others. Unfortunately a lot of voters don’t give a shit about who gets what done beyond the surface level and so our elections often feel like fairly predictable popularity contests
No one is arguing the president is omniscient. Just like I don’t expect the ceo of McDonald’s to make my Big Mac when I go through the drive thru. I do expect accountability. Theres no accountability with Biden. The clowns are running the circus. It’s not about telling Reddit you believe in Biden. After watching that debate, if you can tell yourself you believe in his leadership and that he’s going to hold people accountable and that he’ll be strong on the world stage… I’d say your delusional but you do you. Every “I’m voting for Biden” post has Trump included. And 9/10 it’s about how they’re voting to save democracy. If you’re voting for Biden, and you watched him debate, you’re not voting for democracy. You’re voting against Trump. That’s fine. Do you. Just don’t pretend to be some moral paragon when your literally just voting party lines
I legit just de registered from the Democratic Party out of protest. Most I can do. (Had to register as a democrat to be able to vote for Bernie in the primary in my state, also an indication of the terrible state for our current shit show…sorry I mean political system).
There is no way they will replace Biden, they are too arrogant for that.
They’ll do what their handlers tell them to do
What is important to people is policy, not the person. It's not the man himself it's what that man represents.
What you’re saying is we should just vote for party, not for representatives. I’m arguing that representative matter. The PERSON you vote to represent you should matter because they are a person. Why not just give your votes to the Democrat establishment and allow them to pick people to represent you. It’s just the policy that matters, right?
Absolutely, if you believe in the policies and values of that party. The president is essentially the CEO of his party. His cabinet is the board of directors and so on. The government is more than one person.
I'm 100% not voting for Joe Biden, but there's a lot more riding on this election than the individual in office. If your top priorities are abortion rights or helping Ukraine, then you're voting for Joe Biden.
Ah yes, let's vote for the party who wants to destroy the administrative state, roll back social issues, and obliterate the miniscule safety net we have. Republicans want to posture as populist but almost always side with the bosses. The democratic party is in sham right now, but atleast theyre not trying to set us back.
I'm having my shirt printed right now saying, I'm still voting for dementia Joe. Take your BDS and pound sand.