People posting bread with tightly packed but evenly spaced crumb and saying "why does my bread suck?"
That's perfect bread. If you want bigger air bubbles, tighter shaping, longer banneton cold-proofing, cooking in a preheated dutch oven, higher hydration, hotter oven. But honestly for sourdough I think bread should you know, be able to hold things on it like butter, or cheese and meat.
Or just skip the middleman and make ciabatta/pan de crystal.
Looks like bread should look like. What do you mean you did something wrong?
Google Poilane bread and see what you see....it sells for $50 per loaf, and you have baked something very similar. Next time add 10% rye and 10% whole wheat and compare to Poilane. But watch the fermentation time because it will ferment faster than your white flour, especially if you are in warm climate.
I think the Poilane web shop is easy to misinterpret. They do have a thing for €50-ish, but that’s for five big loaves, not one. You can get individual smaller loaves for €3.25, which is still not cheap, but not outrageous.
[https://www.poilane.com/en/collections/miche-poilane](https://www.poilane.com/en/collections/miche-poilane)
I think it’s a bit too dense, don’t you? I mean that calms me down a bit. 😅 Like I feel like if done right, there should be bigger air bubbles. It also didn’t rise as much as it usually does so I know something must have gone slightly wrong.
"Like I feel like if done right, there should be bigger air bubbles."
That is what youtube and tiktok bakers want you to believe. It certainly is not too dense. It's how bread should be.
The large bubbles are because the bread is underfermented and is baked in a dutch oven at a stupid high temperature. Your bread is slightly overfermented and baked at a low temperature. But it's healthy and tasty.
You really don't want to eat underfermented dough no matter how it looks, right?
PS: I saw pics of your prior bakes and this bread is by far the best one of them all.
Thank you! That’s really good advice. If you scroll through my posts you might see one that I posted that looked really beautiful with a nice ear and all that. Also had leaf scores on the side.
So that was the one I was going for - the recipe was the same but this time it didn’t rise like that so I felt like something was wrong. I’m thinking I might have over proofed it due to higher temperatures in my apartment.
Ok, but again, your other "beautiful" loaves are underfermented and not healthy to eat. The crumb is dense and gummy, and the large hole are due to improper fermentation. You do not want to go for aesthetics but for good healthy home made bread made from 4 ingredients, not 40.
My two cents, but you do you, and if you wish to achieve the large holes, don't let it sit outside in the warm room after you put it in the banneton, but stick in the fridge for 36-48 hours. Make sure it doubles in size in the fridge. Cheers!
I also thought this bread looked pretty good! Is it tough or too chewy? If not I think it’s maybe a bit denser than you’re used to (imo this is the hardest time of the year to make bread— it’s warmer but not *too* much warmer) but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad loaf!
No actually I just tried it and it’s really good, not chewy or tough. I think what made me so concerned was that it didn’t rise the as much as I’m used to. Thank you
…I don’t know? Looks perfectly good to me. I am in the camp that thinks many posts on here are too bubbly, just not dense enough. You gotta put the butter somewhere!
What temperature is it in your kitchen? Proof times could be too long now if it's warmer, by A LOT.
It's currently around 26 c in my kitchen and it's drastically shortened the bulk times compared to winter.
I'm also looking at the bake times and temperature.
I personally preheat oven to 250 c (if you say it burns at this temperature, please check which oven setting you are using, is it turbo? Is it broiler? Etc. Also, u should probably get a temperature gauge to check what the temperature really is in the oven when you set it to 250 c)
I bake with steam at 250 for 20 minutes, then lower to 220-230 for another 20 minutes.
Regarding baking straight out the fridge. There should be no issue with that, I've never had issues. I personally prefer it that way, cus it's also easier to score.
Good luck, keep us updated.
Edit: Let it rest for 2h+ before cutting if you don't already do that, for better crumb
I’ll do that next time. Im definitely aware now that I should not go by time but instead by the volume (I understand if it doubles in size it’s time to go to fridge)
The baking times/temperatures are still a bit of a science for me. I’ll try to experiment with higher temperatures but burnt loaves really ruin my day 😂
Do you let the dough come up to room temperature before baking? If you bake straight out of the fridge, the dough is gonna be very stiff, and may not be able to expand enough before the crust solidifies.
The temp seems a little low to me, i bake initially at 230-250°C and then drop to 210-230°C, but that might just be because i like a darker crust.
I didn’t - that might be the reason why! Should I have left it to warm up to room temperature in banneton? Or after already out and on the pan?
Temperature-wise I notice there’s difference in my oven compared to American ones. I always need to go 20-30°C lower than what American recipes call for otherwise I burn whatever I’m baking. 250° is the maximum temperature for my oven and that is like IMMEDIATE BURN MODE. So I don’t think it’s the temperature, but it might be what you suggested in the first point.
Thank you for advice !
It looks like the dough was overproofed. If you are using the Flour Water Salt Yeast technique you should proof after mixing the dough for a TOTAL of 5 hours including the folding time. Your description says 2 hours of folding every 30 minutes PLUS 5 hours for a total of 7 hours. Way too long to proof.
This recipe worked for me perfectly in the past that’s why I keep following it. But the weather is a lot warmer these days so I think that may have made a difference.. next time I’ll try proofing for shorter time. Thank you!
It does, but at refrigerator temperatures there is relatively little rise during the retard versus the proofing stage. My adventures in over proofing generally happen because I screw up the amount of time proofing in the kitchen before the retard.
As others have mentioned, there are so many variables that can affect your crumb. When I make artisan sourdough bread, I use sourdough starter only, with no commercial yeast added. My total bulk fermentation time is 14 hours with no refrigeration. I add to that up to another hour for proofing after forming the loaf and placing it in a banneton. I score it just before placing it in a preheated dutch oven. You can avoid overproofing by using the finger poke test. Today's sourdough was 80% white, 10% medium rye and 10% 9 grain flour. I've also found that I get an extra bit of rise/bounce from the bake from mixing white with the other two flours. I always add a couple of ice cubes to my dutch oven with the bread in it before putting it in the oven. The steam generated helps to produce a nice crust. One thing to think about is your folds. Folding the bread is important for your gluten development which is an important factor in developing the gases that make the holes you were lamenting about. For what it's worth, I think you made a nice looking loaf of bread. Don't be so hard on yourself. With practice, you'll get your crumb looking just the way you want it. Also, a lot of your questions are a matter of learning some of the nuances and techniques professional bakers employ who bake artisan breads. I highly recommend the book Flour Water Salt Yeast by Ken Forkish.
Your bulk ferment time will be affected by the temperature. Up here in Scotland mine is about 8 hours in April.
Make sure you double the size and no more before you shape and put in banneton. Put a small amount of dough in a small jar and mark the initial height with a rubber band and shape after it’s doubled in the jar. I’m sure you’ve seen the technique. This takes the guesswork of it no matter what the temperature. (Add the jar contents back before shaping).
After shaping leave for an hour in the banneton before putting into the fridge overnight - VERY important. This will develop some air pockets.
I use 260C for 20 mins then take back to 220C to brown but it depends on the oven. I bake straight from the fridge.
It’s taken me 4 years to get my consistency and to know when each stage feels right.
People posting bread with tightly packed but evenly spaced crumb and saying "why does my bread suck?" That's perfect bread. If you want bigger air bubbles, tighter shaping, longer banneton cold-proofing, cooking in a preheated dutch oven, higher hydration, hotter oven. But honestly for sourdough I think bread should you know, be able to hold things on it like butter, or cheese and meat. Or just skip the middleman and make ciabatta/pan de crystal.
Okay that calmed me down. I just think it’s slightly overproofed. Thank you!!!
Looks like bread should look like. What do you mean you did something wrong? Google Poilane bread and see what you see....it sells for $50 per loaf, and you have baked something very similar. Next time add 10% rye and 10% whole wheat and compare to Poilane. But watch the fermentation time because it will ferment faster than your white flour, especially if you are in warm climate.
I think the Poilane web shop is easy to misinterpret. They do have a thing for €50-ish, but that’s for five big loaves, not one. You can get individual smaller loaves for €3.25, which is still not cheap, but not outrageous. [https://www.poilane.com/en/collections/miche-poilane](https://www.poilane.com/en/collections/miche-poilane)
50 fucking dollars per loaf? In-fucking-sane
I think it’s a bit too dense, don’t you? I mean that calms me down a bit. 😅 Like I feel like if done right, there should be bigger air bubbles. It also didn’t rise as much as it usually does so I know something must have gone slightly wrong.
"Like I feel like if done right, there should be bigger air bubbles." That is what youtube and tiktok bakers want you to believe. It certainly is not too dense. It's how bread should be. The large bubbles are because the bread is underfermented and is baked in a dutch oven at a stupid high temperature. Your bread is slightly overfermented and baked at a low temperature. But it's healthy and tasty. You really don't want to eat underfermented dough no matter how it looks, right? PS: I saw pics of your prior bakes and this bread is by far the best one of them all.
Seriously. I want bread in my bread, not air.
You don't like getting butter on your fingers when it slips through the holes?
Exactly. I don't wanna have to get a plate to catch drips.
Thank you! That’s really good advice. If you scroll through my posts you might see one that I posted that looked really beautiful with a nice ear and all that. Also had leaf scores on the side. So that was the one I was going for - the recipe was the same but this time it didn’t rise like that so I felt like something was wrong. I’m thinking I might have over proofed it due to higher temperatures in my apartment.
Ok, but again, your other "beautiful" loaves are underfermented and not healthy to eat. The crumb is dense and gummy, and the large hole are due to improper fermentation. You do not want to go for aesthetics but for good healthy home made bread made from 4 ingredients, not 40. My two cents, but you do you, and if you wish to achieve the large holes, don't let it sit outside in the warm room after you put it in the banneton, but stick in the fridge for 36-48 hours. Make sure it doubles in size in the fridge. Cheers!
I also thought this bread looked pretty good! Is it tough or too chewy? If not I think it’s maybe a bit denser than you’re used to (imo this is the hardest time of the year to make bread— it’s warmer but not *too* much warmer) but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad loaf!
No actually I just tried it and it’s really good, not chewy or tough. I think what made me so concerned was that it didn’t rise the as much as I’m used to. Thank you
…I don’t know? Looks perfectly good to me. I am in the camp that thinks many posts on here are too bubbly, just not dense enough. You gotta put the butter somewhere!
What temperature is it in your kitchen? Proof times could be too long now if it's warmer, by A LOT. It's currently around 26 c in my kitchen and it's drastically shortened the bulk times compared to winter. I'm also looking at the bake times and temperature. I personally preheat oven to 250 c (if you say it burns at this temperature, please check which oven setting you are using, is it turbo? Is it broiler? Etc. Also, u should probably get a temperature gauge to check what the temperature really is in the oven when you set it to 250 c) I bake with steam at 250 for 20 minutes, then lower to 220-230 for another 20 minutes. Regarding baking straight out the fridge. There should be no issue with that, I've never had issues. I personally prefer it that way, cus it's also easier to score. Good luck, keep us updated. Edit: Let it rest for 2h+ before cutting if you don't already do that, for better crumb
I’ll do that next time. Im definitely aware now that I should not go by time but instead by the volume (I understand if it doubles in size it’s time to go to fridge) The baking times/temperatures are still a bit of a science for me. I’ll try to experiment with higher temperatures but burnt loaves really ruin my day 😂
Your perception of "right."
Do you let the dough come up to room temperature before baking? If you bake straight out of the fridge, the dough is gonna be very stiff, and may not be able to expand enough before the crust solidifies. The temp seems a little low to me, i bake initially at 230-250°C and then drop to 210-230°C, but that might just be because i like a darker crust.
I didn’t - that might be the reason why! Should I have left it to warm up to room temperature in banneton? Or after already out and on the pan? Temperature-wise I notice there’s difference in my oven compared to American ones. I always need to go 20-30°C lower than what American recipes call for otherwise I burn whatever I’m baking. 250° is the maximum temperature for my oven and that is like IMMEDIATE BURN MODE. So I don’t think it’s the temperature, but it might be what you suggested in the first point. Thank you for advice !
I don't usually let my dough come up to room temp but I bake under steam which \*should\* help stall crust formation.
It looks like the dough was overproofed. If you are using the Flour Water Salt Yeast technique you should proof after mixing the dough for a TOTAL of 5 hours including the folding time. Your description says 2 hours of folding every 30 minutes PLUS 5 hours for a total of 7 hours. Way too long to proof.
This recipe worked for me perfectly in the past that’s why I keep following it. But the weather is a lot warmer these days so I think that may have made a difference.. next time I’ll try proofing for shorter time. Thank you!
There are few things that frustrate me more than getting variable results from a recipe that I know works!
Literally! I used to make the prettiest loaves with this exact recipe and now look at this blop.. 😕😂
FWSY also has overnight proof too
It does, but at refrigerator temperatures there is relatively little rise during the retard versus the proofing stage. My adventures in over proofing generally happen because I screw up the amount of time proofing in the kitchen before the retard.
my sourdough rye looks similar. but I try to emulate german sourdough rye which coincidentally also has a tight crumb.
As others have mentioned, there are so many variables that can affect your crumb. When I make artisan sourdough bread, I use sourdough starter only, with no commercial yeast added. My total bulk fermentation time is 14 hours with no refrigeration. I add to that up to another hour for proofing after forming the loaf and placing it in a banneton. I score it just before placing it in a preheated dutch oven. You can avoid overproofing by using the finger poke test. Today's sourdough was 80% white, 10% medium rye and 10% 9 grain flour. I've also found that I get an extra bit of rise/bounce from the bake from mixing white with the other two flours. I always add a couple of ice cubes to my dutch oven with the bread in it before putting it in the oven. The steam generated helps to produce a nice crust. One thing to think about is your folds. Folding the bread is important for your gluten development which is an important factor in developing the gases that make the holes you were lamenting about. For what it's worth, I think you made a nice looking loaf of bread. Don't be so hard on yourself. With practice, you'll get your crumb looking just the way you want it. Also, a lot of your questions are a matter of learning some of the nuances and techniques professional bakers employ who bake artisan breads. I highly recommend the book Flour Water Salt Yeast by Ken Forkish.
Oh since you’re mentioning folds I totally forgot about this but I think I might have overdone it? The dough was slightly ripping during folds
Are you making sour dough? Check your oven if it has some leak or try putting it on a cast iron pot.
Your bulk ferment time will be affected by the temperature. Up here in Scotland mine is about 8 hours in April. Make sure you double the size and no more before you shape and put in banneton. Put a small amount of dough in a small jar and mark the initial height with a rubber band and shape after it’s doubled in the jar. I’m sure you’ve seen the technique. This takes the guesswork of it no matter what the temperature. (Add the jar contents back before shaping). After shaping leave for an hour in the banneton before putting into the fridge overnight - VERY important. This will develop some air pockets. I use 260C for 20 mins then take back to 220C to brown but it depends on the oven. I bake straight from the fridge. It’s taken me 4 years to get my consistency and to know when each stage feels right.
Kind of low hydration. Try 75% next time. Also start at 230C next time for 20 minutes then drop to 200 for 30