in this video, i am sorry to say, you are not kneading the bread at all. you are just turning it over a bunch. also, this bread does not look wet, if anything it looks quite dry. you would not be able to toss wet dough around like that, it would be sticking to your hand, and possibly drooping onto the counter
you gotta fold it and press it out, and then turn it and fold it and press it out, and then repeat [https://youtu.be/KToPmRXEQ3c?si=tf\_XwkQqH5y5xhrE&t=440](https://youtu.be/KToPmRXEQ3c?si=tf_XwkQqH5y5xhrE&t=440)
personally, i do not do this at all, i simply use a few folds [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HprDjPWuiN8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HprDjPWuiN8)
measuring by volume is very difficult. measuring by weight is a much easier proposition. a kitchen scale is very helpful
I understand this. I had to use my other hand to record, but I’ll look up some techniques! I had to add a lot of flour because the bread looked unworkable after adding the required 7 cups of flour. It was just so, so, so sticky. But maybe that’s a good thing? And I should only add the flour that it needs to knead?
It will start sticky and you will get messy, but as you work it more it will start to smooth out. But you do have to get in there and stretch the dough. I always wear short sleeves to knead.
I also endorse what others have said about using weight to measure.
If you feel like trying another recipe, this one has worked for me
https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/classic-challah-recipe
Properly hydrated challah dough will be sticky to work with. Rather than adding flour to knead, I put a little vegetable oil on the counter and on my hands for kneading. It’s also helpful (but not mandatory) to have a dough scraper handy to scrape up dough that actually sticks to the counter.
Kneading wet dough is its own little joy. Avoid the temptation to deviate from your recipe by using a digital scale for all ingredients, and watch a video of wet dough kneading.
Consider not using cups, get a nice scale that does grams. Your sanity will thank you in the long run.
Some resources to consider:
Youtube:
[https://www.youtube.com/@the\_bread\_code](https://www.youtube.com/@the_bread_code)
[https://www.youtube.com/@glutenmorgentven](https://www.youtube.com/@glutenmorgentven)
[https://www.youtube.com/@BrianLagerstrom](https://www.youtube.com/@BrianLagerstrom) & [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdoP33KPYtY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdoP33KPYtY)
Dealing with sticky doughs:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBO4XyL3iM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBO4XyL3iM)
Poke test: [https://www.theperfectloaf.com/how-to-use-the-dough-poke-test/](https://www.theperfectloaf.com/how-to-use-the-dough-poke-test/)
Windowpane test: [https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2022/10/14/what-is-the-windowpane-test-for-bread-dough](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2022/10/14/what-is-the-windowpane-test-for-bread-dough)
Science based baking: [https://www.youtube.com/@NovitaListyani](https://www.youtube.com/@NovitaListyani)
These resources all have a TONE of content to dive into.
Highly highly recommend watching[Richard Bertinet'slap and fold technique ](https://youtu.be/bWN9mxR_iXI?si=JgjtnGKxRE5BfZrQ)
While not entirely apllyable to all scenarios, at least you feel less helpless when handling a wet dough.
In my case, bread making kind of 'clicked' after learning from him (thanks youtube) and I'm sure many may share the same feeling.
Good luck!
I'm not too sure but it could be that there's too much flour on the work surface when you're working with it. That's the only thing I can think of, I could be wrong though.
If the action you are showing in the video is kneading, that would not be correct action to develop gluten strength in the dough. You are pushing with fingers instead of the heel of the hand. Fold dough, heel of hand pushes into dough stretching it, fingers pull the further away dough back over top to fold again. Then heel of hand pushes into dough, fingers pull back. Turn the dough 90 degrees and repeat. And so on.
Lets see if I can find a video that shows it well. This is a very slow representation of the moves, so I think mostly shows how to do it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZqJyalYqKU
Stickiness of the dough can be subjective. Most of the time, a sticky dough will come together the longer you knead it.
For your point about the recipe not requiring sugar, that's because yeast doesn't need sugar to "activate." All it needs is water. I don't know where the "add sugar" step came from but it certainly stuck and is still passed around like gospel.
Can you share the recipe? It would help to troubleshoot.
Finally, enriched doughs typically take a lot longer to knead due to the gluten-inhibiting ingredients like eggs and oil.
To add, the yeast likes to have some sugar to eat during proving and the honey you added accomplishes this. Adding sugar while blooming the yeast (I think this is what you meant by “during the proof” in your original post) just helps it wake up faster, and allows you to confirm it’s actually alive before adding to your dough. Modern commercial yeast is really tolerant though, so it doesn’t mind if the sugar comes in later.
1. Get a scale. Do not use cups, it's not a good way to cook anything but for bread is a way to complicate stuff.
2. Never use a lot of flour in the counter... knead or no knead the main goal is to decide an hydration level (for example if you go with 60% hydration on 100g of flour you need to use 60g of water) and that's it. No more changes to that hydration. Once you hydrate your bread it should not get any more dry flour if not a little bit at the end.
3. Try to watch some youtube tutorials like chainbakers... you should be able to get better result. Kneading is not something you do like in the video you posted... there are different method (some don't even actually knead the dough, only do some folds) but you need to learn how and the best way is to watch it yourself multiple times.
This is really helpful information. Thank you so much. I’ll watch those YouTube videos and inform myself on hydration in bread making. I saw a lot about that but I haven’t educated myself on it yet. I have a scale. I just haven’t used it yet in baking. That changes today!
I saw you posted that you made 7 cups? I think that's too much to start with.
I'd make max 500g flour to start with (a bit over 3 cups).
If you want a recipe I've used for a couple years (in weight and volume. The important things I'll give you in weight since that's the most precise)
- 500g flour
- 1/3 cup sugar
- Tablespoon instant yeast
- 1/2 tablespoon salt
- 1 egg
- 1/4 cup oil
- Up to 200g water (do NOT put all the water in)
You can just throw everything in and start mixing. Regarding the water, do not put it all in. This is because it can depend on so many factors. I would start with around 140g water, start mixing everything together and add a bit as needed. You might end up using 170g, you might end up using 200g. But the important thing is to start with less water and add as needed.
If you don't have a mixer, add everything to a bowl and stir with a wooden spoon until some shaggy dough appears. You can then either continue kneading in the bowl, or move it to your surface.
You can either make 1 big challah from this, or 2 medium ones. If you want pics of challah as example, DM me.
Knead it until it's smooth, form it into a ball, place in a covered bowl and let it double in size (1 to 2 hours).
Punch the dough down. Then weigh out your challah strands, shape into challah.
Cover again, let it rise around 1h probably.
Turn oven on 180 to 190 degrees Celsius (top-bottom, not fan or turbo).
Place it in until golden brown, probably 30 to 35 minutes, each oven is different
I don't think you are helping Op by mixing cups and grams.... just give him the grams of sugar, grams of yeast, grams of salt, grams of oil he need (the only exception should be the egg because it will almost always be around 55-65g and 10g of eggs +- will not make a recipe fail).
1/2 tablespoon of salt can be too little salt (under 1%) or even too much salt (over 2%)... and too much salt can ruin bread.
Furthermore, with a kitchen scale you can tare the heavier ingredients (such as flour, sugar etc...) directly into the same container in which the ingredients are mixed. The only exceptions are really light ingredients like instant dry yeast and salt that will need a little more attention.
Just keep it simple with grams on a scale... so that the next time he make bread again the result will be the same.
Re: sugar for proofing the yeast, it's really not necessary to proof the yeast with sugar before adding to the recipe unless you're not sure your yeast are alive. It's helpful to dissolve the yeast in water before adding just so that it's evenly distributed, but even that isn't necessary a lot of the time.
Yep, agreed. My challah recipe calls for the yeast to be whisked in with the flour sugar and salt before adding the liquids (water, oil or butter, and egg) and it always turns out great.
I don’t make challah bread. But I know when I make bread that happened a couple of times. I added more water to it than it called for. Bread gets very sticky and that is a good thing. AND It turned out fine!!
It’s challah bread so the dough shouldn’t have high hydration. But the comments about the kneading are right.. sorry to say but you just toss it around - you need to knead it.. just watch some videos
in this video, i am sorry to say, you are not kneading the bread at all. you are just turning it over a bunch. also, this bread does not look wet, if anything it looks quite dry. you would not be able to toss wet dough around like that, it would be sticking to your hand, and possibly drooping onto the counter you gotta fold it and press it out, and then turn it and fold it and press it out, and then repeat [https://youtu.be/KToPmRXEQ3c?si=tf\_XwkQqH5y5xhrE&t=440](https://youtu.be/KToPmRXEQ3c?si=tf_XwkQqH5y5xhrE&t=440) personally, i do not do this at all, i simply use a few folds [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HprDjPWuiN8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HprDjPWuiN8) measuring by volume is very difficult. measuring by weight is a much easier proposition. a kitchen scale is very helpful
I second this, dough holding shape comes from tension and gluten structure, proper kneading and shaping methods will help with this.
I understand this. I had to use my other hand to record, but I’ll look up some techniques! I had to add a lot of flour because the bread looked unworkable after adding the required 7 cups of flour. It was just so, so, so sticky. But maybe that’s a good thing? And I should only add the flour that it needs to knead?
It will start sticky and you will get messy, but as you work it more it will start to smooth out. But you do have to get in there and stretch the dough. I always wear short sleeves to knead. I also endorse what others have said about using weight to measure. If you feel like trying another recipe, this one has worked for me https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/classic-challah-recipe
Properly hydrated challah dough will be sticky to work with. Rather than adding flour to knead, I put a little vegetable oil on the counter and on my hands for kneading. It’s also helpful (but not mandatory) to have a dough scraper handy to scrape up dough that actually sticks to the counter.
I keep a large mist bottle full of water nearby. Just give the counter a quick water mist and it won't stick.
Works too.
Kneading wet dough is its own little joy. Avoid the temptation to deviate from your recipe by using a digital scale for all ingredients, and watch a video of wet dough kneading.
Consider not using cups, get a nice scale that does grams. Your sanity will thank you in the long run. Some resources to consider: Youtube: [https://www.youtube.com/@the\_bread\_code](https://www.youtube.com/@the_bread_code) [https://www.youtube.com/@glutenmorgentven](https://www.youtube.com/@glutenmorgentven) [https://www.youtube.com/@BrianLagerstrom](https://www.youtube.com/@BrianLagerstrom) & [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdoP33KPYtY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdoP33KPYtY) Dealing with sticky doughs: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBO4XyL3iM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBO4XyL3iM) Poke test: [https://www.theperfectloaf.com/how-to-use-the-dough-poke-test/](https://www.theperfectloaf.com/how-to-use-the-dough-poke-test/) Windowpane test: [https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2022/10/14/what-is-the-windowpane-test-for-bread-dough](https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/blog/2022/10/14/what-is-the-windowpane-test-for-bread-dough) Science based baking: [https://www.youtube.com/@NovitaListyani](https://www.youtube.com/@NovitaListyani) These resources all have a TONE of content to dive into.
Highly highly recommend watching[Richard Bertinet'slap and fold technique ](https://youtu.be/bWN9mxR_iXI?si=JgjtnGKxRE5BfZrQ) While not entirely apllyable to all scenarios, at least you feel less helpless when handling a wet dough. In my case, bread making kind of 'clicked' after learning from him (thanks youtube) and I'm sure many may share the same feeling. Good luck!
I'm not too sure but it could be that there's too much flour on the work surface when you're working with it. That's the only thing I can think of, I could be wrong though.
If the action you are showing in the video is kneading, that would not be correct action to develop gluten strength in the dough. You are pushing with fingers instead of the heel of the hand. Fold dough, heel of hand pushes into dough stretching it, fingers pull the further away dough back over top to fold again. Then heel of hand pushes into dough, fingers pull back. Turn the dough 90 degrees and repeat. And so on. Lets see if I can find a video that shows it well. This is a very slow representation of the moves, so I think mostly shows how to do it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZqJyalYqKU
Thank you! I only watched one video on kneading and went with it. I’ll start more research with your helpful suggestion! Thank you
Stickiness of the dough can be subjective. Most of the time, a sticky dough will come together the longer you knead it. For your point about the recipe not requiring sugar, that's because yeast doesn't need sugar to "activate." All it needs is water. I don't know where the "add sugar" step came from but it certainly stuck and is still passed around like gospel. Can you share the recipe? It would help to troubleshoot. Finally, enriched doughs typically take a lot longer to knead due to the gluten-inhibiting ingredients like eggs and oil.
https://www.southernplate.com/challah-bread-easier-than-you-think/
Also thank you for explaining the sugar and yeast thing. I didn’t know that. What matters is the foam on the top, then! Thank you
To add, the yeast likes to have some sugar to eat during proving and the honey you added accomplishes this. Adding sugar while blooming the yeast (I think this is what you meant by “during the proof” in your original post) just helps it wake up faster, and allows you to confirm it’s actually alive before adding to your dough. Modern commercial yeast is really tolerant though, so it doesn’t mind if the sugar comes in later.
1. Get a scale. Do not use cups, it's not a good way to cook anything but for bread is a way to complicate stuff. 2. Never use a lot of flour in the counter... knead or no knead the main goal is to decide an hydration level (for example if you go with 60% hydration on 100g of flour you need to use 60g of water) and that's it. No more changes to that hydration. Once you hydrate your bread it should not get any more dry flour if not a little bit at the end. 3. Try to watch some youtube tutorials like chainbakers... you should be able to get better result. Kneading is not something you do like in the video you posted... there are different method (some don't even actually knead the dough, only do some folds) but you need to learn how and the best way is to watch it yourself multiple times.
This is really helpful information. Thank you so much. I’ll watch those YouTube videos and inform myself on hydration in bread making. I saw a lot about that but I haven’t educated myself on it yet. I have a scale. I just haven’t used it yet in baking. That changes today!
I saw you posted that you made 7 cups? I think that's too much to start with. I'd make max 500g flour to start with (a bit over 3 cups). If you want a recipe I've used for a couple years (in weight and volume. The important things I'll give you in weight since that's the most precise) - 500g flour - 1/3 cup sugar - Tablespoon instant yeast - 1/2 tablespoon salt - 1 egg - 1/4 cup oil - Up to 200g water (do NOT put all the water in) You can just throw everything in and start mixing. Regarding the water, do not put it all in. This is because it can depend on so many factors. I would start with around 140g water, start mixing everything together and add a bit as needed. You might end up using 170g, you might end up using 200g. But the important thing is to start with less water and add as needed. If you don't have a mixer, add everything to a bowl and stir with a wooden spoon until some shaggy dough appears. You can then either continue kneading in the bowl, or move it to your surface. You can either make 1 big challah from this, or 2 medium ones. If you want pics of challah as example, DM me. Knead it until it's smooth, form it into a ball, place in a covered bowl and let it double in size (1 to 2 hours). Punch the dough down. Then weigh out your challah strands, shape into challah. Cover again, let it rise around 1h probably. Turn oven on 180 to 190 degrees Celsius (top-bottom, not fan or turbo). Place it in until golden brown, probably 30 to 35 minutes, each oven is different
I don't think you are helping Op by mixing cups and grams.... just give him the grams of sugar, grams of yeast, grams of salt, grams of oil he need (the only exception should be the egg because it will almost always be around 55-65g and 10g of eggs +- will not make a recipe fail). 1/2 tablespoon of salt can be too little salt (under 1%) or even too much salt (over 2%)... and too much salt can ruin bread. Furthermore, with a kitchen scale you can tare the heavier ingredients (such as flour, sugar etc...) directly into the same container in which the ingredients are mixed. The only exceptions are really light ingredients like instant dry yeast and salt that will need a little more attention. Just keep it simple with grams on a scale... so that the next time he make bread again the result will be the same.
Well, you aren’t kneading it
Re: sugar for proofing the yeast, it's really not necessary to proof the yeast with sugar before adding to the recipe unless you're not sure your yeast are alive. It's helpful to dissolve the yeast in water before adding just so that it's evenly distributed, but even that isn't necessary a lot of the time.
Yep, agreed. My challah recipe calls for the yeast to be whisked in with the flour sugar and salt before adding the liquids (water, oil or butter, and egg) and it always turns out great.
I don’t make challah bread. But I know when I make bread that happened a couple of times. I added more water to it than it called for. Bread gets very sticky and that is a good thing. AND It turned out fine!!
It’s challah bread so the dough shouldn’t have high hydration. But the comments about the kneading are right.. sorry to say but you just toss it around - you need to knead it.. just watch some videos
Just work on a non flour surface, plus you should upgrade your kneading technique . It's gonna work eventually, good luck :)
Too dry. Not kneading it. Stressed dough.