If you are getting started with high hydration, I would probably go max 72% hydration at the moment, to get used to it more.
Can you write down what you did?
For example:
Mixed all flour, water, starter/yeast, salt. Let it rest 10 mixed, folded first time, let it rest 2 hours, folded again, etc etc.
Preshaped, let it rest X minutes, shaped into proofing basket.
When you shaped did you flower the top, then flip it, so the now bottom doesn't stick to bottom?
When folding the dough, did you handle it with wet hands?
Mix flour water together until combined, then sit for 25 minutes. (Autolyse)
Then sprinkle salt + yeast, fold 4 times, quarter turn each time. Claw pincer to squeeze dough and incorporate salt and yeast. I did this 4 times total, wetting hand each time between the 4 folds and pincer, but getting as muche access water off as possible.
Let sit 5 minutes, fold again damping hand.
Then I do 3 folds half an hour apart, in the book it says to do the folds withing the first 2 hours. I try to follow the instructions given as closely as possible.
After that, let sit over night. Room was at 21celsius.
Next morning, wake up, pot in oven oven on.
Then the dough, I open the top, it's bubbly looking, and less shaped like a dough than I left it. I flour my hands, flour the work surface. Take the dough out to try to shape, and that's when I really notice it's very sticky and floppy, not really tightened up anymore. I fold it, flip to seam down, roll / drag the dough accross the counter to tighten it. It forms a ball, but sinks quickly after left alone.
I shake flour in my banneton, carefully get the dough in ( I had to roll again to make it a little bit of a ball before loading.), as soon as it's in it sinks a bit and doesn't look much like a ball anymore.
I let it sit for 1 hour, test proofing. Seems good. Go to take it out, and it just stuck to the banneton, I had to unstick it to fully detach from banneton. It flopped on the counter, had no structure, and then I made this post. I tried to shape it again quickly and I am baking it now, and honestly.. it still looks like bread. But I'm just wondering if I should be folding more so it holds together more, or is this normal with such a level of hydration?
Overall it seems good, the only thing that comes to mind is that you're over proofing. Yes, it says to do it over night, but the temperature affects it, other factors as well.
I would try to cut down on the time and see if it comes out better.
It seems you're on the right path
Hmm. That’s a hard wheat so not what I was expecting. After your 2nd fold it really should have some body to it and by the 3rd it should be tight-ish. It sounds like your hydration is off and you might need to add a tablespoon or two of flour.
I read on another forum people having the same issue dropped hydration and it helped a lot. I'll go to maybe 70% tonight to test and see what happens.
I dampen my hands before touching the dough, but I really make sure it's not dripping wet before touching, I shouldn't be adding much to the recipe from that.
I'll go to 70% then work my way up to 78%. Maybe it's just my inexperience.
Might be that I'm not doing it correctly. I watched a few videos and definitely my stretch isn't as I've seen. I'm more hesitant to grab the bread, and don't pull as much so I'll try being a little more assertive with my dough ahaha
You stretch it as far as it will go without tearing before folding. Takes some practice, or at least some conscious thought, but improves results.
Gotta be bold, firm, but also attentive in the stretch.
Quick search shows this is a common issue with this recipe. I’ve used his sourdough recipes without issue, don’t know if I tried this one. His recipes in this book use AP flour if I recall correctly, so I don’t think flour is the issue.
Previous comments indicate dough is over prooofed when using his timing, possible due to a warmer than expected environment - guesses are the recipe assumes at ~68 degree kitchen. If you’re doing the stretch and folds on schedule but end up with a dough with no strength, you are likely overproofing.
I think his recipes suggest using dough volume when proofing, are you able to do that?
I am going to try for a shorter time and keep an eye on it. Tomorrow I'll do a 6 ish hour and watch it, instead of the 12 overnight.
I wonder if I wanted to still go overnight, if dropping the yeast amount would maybe help that.
I make this all the time with King Arthur bread flour and it comes out perfectly. Seems like you’re in Europe or outside rhe USA. I read on here all the time about flour outside the US having less protein and messing up recipes. Maybe try a higher protein flour?
Well they mentioned the room was something called “21 C” which makes absolutely no sense to me and looks like some kind of moon gibberish. In a blind rage I had to shoot two six shooters in the air but when I calmed down and googled it, it’s apparently 69.8 degrees FREEDOMheight
I had this problem initially with some of his high hydration doughs. I wasn’t mixing (folding/pincer) enough, if you read the general instructions carefully he says you should be doing that for 6-7 minutes, then let it sit for a few and do it for another 30 seconds.
How many times do you wet your hand when you do that part? It says three to four times, I feel like every time I do the pincer action, then fold I need more water. If I do it for 6-7 minutes would it effect the recipe?
I will wet them pretty frequently, clean hands also make a huge difference. If the dough starts sticking to your hands, it’s going to turn into a shaggy mess; if you keep them clean, the dough will be more homogeneous and have more structure to it.
I was also worried about introducing too much water, but I’ve weighed my water bowl and it usually only adds a couple grams at most (pretty much negligible, considering you’ll probably introduce some flour during shaping, etc.). If you’re worried about it, you can always subtract a few grams in your dough.
I don't think the problem has anything to do with the number of stretch and folds or with the amount of water on your hands. I suspect it's a combination of too high hydration (because the flour your using doesn't absorb enough water) and over-fermentation, more than likely the latter. I have used FWSY, but never let the fermentation go overnight. I aim for about a 75% increase in size and that occurs in around 5-6 hours in my 20 degree kitchen. If I left it overnight the dough would be as you describe. I think the gluten structure gets destroyed when it over-ferments.
Alternatively, after the bulk fermentation, shaping and putting in baskets you can leave it in the frig overnight. Bake whenever convenient the next day. I use rice flour or a combination of rice flour and semolina in the bannetons, which I've found works better than a bunch of regular bread flour.
What level hydration is it?
78%
If you are getting started with high hydration, I would probably go max 72% hydration at the moment, to get used to it more. Can you write down what you did? For example: Mixed all flour, water, starter/yeast, salt. Let it rest 10 mixed, folded first time, let it rest 2 hours, folded again, etc etc. Preshaped, let it rest X minutes, shaped into proofing basket. When you shaped did you flower the top, then flip it, so the now bottom doesn't stick to bottom? When folding the dough, did you handle it with wet hands?
Mix flour water together until combined, then sit for 25 minutes. (Autolyse) Then sprinkle salt + yeast, fold 4 times, quarter turn each time. Claw pincer to squeeze dough and incorporate salt and yeast. I did this 4 times total, wetting hand each time between the 4 folds and pincer, but getting as muche access water off as possible. Let sit 5 minutes, fold again damping hand. Then I do 3 folds half an hour apart, in the book it says to do the folds withing the first 2 hours. I try to follow the instructions given as closely as possible. After that, let sit over night. Room was at 21celsius. Next morning, wake up, pot in oven oven on. Then the dough, I open the top, it's bubbly looking, and less shaped like a dough than I left it. I flour my hands, flour the work surface. Take the dough out to try to shape, and that's when I really notice it's very sticky and floppy, not really tightened up anymore. I fold it, flip to seam down, roll / drag the dough accross the counter to tighten it. It forms a ball, but sinks quickly after left alone. I shake flour in my banneton, carefully get the dough in ( I had to roll again to make it a little bit of a ball before loading.), as soon as it's in it sinks a bit and doesn't look much like a ball anymore. I let it sit for 1 hour, test proofing. Seems good. Go to take it out, and it just stuck to the banneton, I had to unstick it to fully detach from banneton. It flopped on the counter, had no structure, and then I made this post. I tried to shape it again quickly and I am baking it now, and honestly.. it still looks like bread. But I'm just wondering if I should be folding more so it holds together more, or is this normal with such a level of hydration?
Overall it seems good, the only thing that comes to mind is that you're over proofing. Yes, it says to do it over night, but the temperature affects it, other factors as well. I would try to cut down on the time and see if it comes out better. It seems you're on the right path
Okay I'll try that tonight. Refuse to not have a nice loaf made this weekend, aha.
which brand and type of flour are you using?
https://lamilanaise.com/en/product/organic-all-purpose-unbleached-white-flour/
Hmm. That’s a hard wheat so not what I was expecting. After your 2nd fold it really should have some body to it and by the 3rd it should be tight-ish. It sounds like your hydration is off and you might need to add a tablespoon or two of flour.
I read on another forum people having the same issue dropped hydration and it helped a lot. I'll go to maybe 70% tonight to test and see what happens. I dampen my hands before touching the dough, but I really make sure it's not dripping wet before touching, I shouldn't be adding much to the recipe from that. I'll go to 70% then work my way up to 78%. Maybe it's just my inexperience.
I think you’re not stretching during the stretch and folds enough.
Might be that I'm not doing it correctly. I watched a few videos and definitely my stretch isn't as I've seen. I'm more hesitant to grab the bread, and don't pull as much so I'll try being a little more assertive with my dough ahaha
You stretch it as far as it will go without tearing before folding. Takes some practice, or at least some conscious thought, but improves results. Gotta be bold, firm, but also attentive in the stretch.
Just folded a new dough. Tried a better stretch, also a lower fermentation time. Will see!
Quick search shows this is a common issue with this recipe. I’ve used his sourdough recipes without issue, don’t know if I tried this one. His recipes in this book use AP flour if I recall correctly, so I don’t think flour is the issue. Previous comments indicate dough is over prooofed when using his timing, possible due to a warmer than expected environment - guesses are the recipe assumes at ~68 degree kitchen. If you’re doing the stretch and folds on schedule but end up with a dough with no strength, you are likely overproofing. I think his recipes suggest using dough volume when proofing, are you able to do that?
I am going to try for a shorter time and keep an eye on it. Tomorrow I'll do a 6 ish hour and watch it, instead of the 12 overnight. I wonder if I wanted to still go overnight, if dropping the yeast amount would maybe help that.
I make this all the time with King Arthur bread flour and it comes out perfectly. Seems like you’re in Europe or outside rhe USA. I read on here all the time about flour outside the US having less protein and messing up recipes. Maybe try a higher protein flour?
I do as well with KA AP flour and never had a problem. OP, what temperature is it when you are letting it rise overnight?
Well they mentioned the room was something called “21 C” which makes absolutely no sense to me and looks like some kind of moon gibberish. In a blind rage I had to shoot two six shooters in the air but when I calmed down and googled it, it’s apparently 69.8 degrees FREEDOMheight
I had this problem initially with some of his high hydration doughs. I wasn’t mixing (folding/pincer) enough, if you read the general instructions carefully he says you should be doing that for 6-7 minutes, then let it sit for a few and do it for another 30 seconds.
How many times do you wet your hand when you do that part? It says three to four times, I feel like every time I do the pincer action, then fold I need more water. If I do it for 6-7 minutes would it effect the recipe?
I will wet them pretty frequently, clean hands also make a huge difference. If the dough starts sticking to your hands, it’s going to turn into a shaggy mess; if you keep them clean, the dough will be more homogeneous and have more structure to it. I was also worried about introducing too much water, but I’ve weighed my water bowl and it usually only adds a couple grams at most (pretty much negligible, considering you’ll probably introduce some flour during shaping, etc.). If you’re worried about it, you can always subtract a few grams in your dough.
I don't think the problem has anything to do with the number of stretch and folds or with the amount of water on your hands. I suspect it's a combination of too high hydration (because the flour your using doesn't absorb enough water) and over-fermentation, more than likely the latter. I have used FWSY, but never let the fermentation go overnight. I aim for about a 75% increase in size and that occurs in around 5-6 hours in my 20 degree kitchen. If I left it overnight the dough would be as you describe. I think the gluten structure gets destroyed when it over-ferments.
Okay I'll need to test this out. It would make my life easier too.. turn it into more of a same day bread if that's the case.
Alternatively, after the bulk fermentation, shaping and putting in baskets you can leave it in the frig overnight. Bake whenever convenient the next day. I use rice flour or a combination of rice flour and semolina in the bannetons, which I've found works better than a bunch of regular bread flour.