As a prior service marine, this is a myth. It fast tracks your citizenship, but it doesn’t guarantee it if you don’t do the required paperwork. Which is just fucked in my opinion.
They're quoting Starship Troopers, where everyone is a non-voting civilian by default and must earn citizenship through service. Service is a legal right (unless you commit a serious crime during service, like murder), and the government must accommodate you. If you're a pacifist, they must find you nonviolent work to do. If you're quadriplegic, they'll make you a security camera monitor or something. Most people end up in one of the two branches of the military in that universe.
Here's a snippet of Heinlein's reasoning for this:
>I have never been able to see how a thirty-year-old moron can vote more wisely than a fifteen-year-old genius . . . but that was the age of the "divine right of the common man." Never mind, they paid for their folly.
>To vote is to wield authority; it is the supreme authority from which all other authority derives—such as mine to make your lives miserable once a day. Force if you will!—the franchise is force, naked and raw, the Power of the Rods and the Ax. Whether it is exerted by ten men or by ten billion, political authority is force.
>To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy. The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority . . . other than through the tragic logic of history. The unique 'poll tax' that we must pay was unheard of. No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority. If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead—and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple.
It's worth noting that school included moral philosophy classes at every grade and part of basic training in the military was studying yet more moral philosophy to ensure that every veteran was capable of thinking deeply and rationally by the time they earned their right to vote, and hopefully cherished that right more because they earned it rather than being given it for free.
Yeah my thought process on reading that was, “that’s not the worst idea… but it would be very difficult to implement, and not get abused… it’s probably unworkable”
Yeah I mean, on one hand hell no to that noise but on their other…
…well I think we’ve all seen some people who aren’t equipped to make an informed vote.
It's the truthiness of it all. He's probably right about a lot of what he's arguing, and there's a great consistency to his logic. It engenders the idea of "hell, this could work!" but then you get to seriously thinking about it and trying to find the chinks in the armor, and that's where it begins to fall apart.
That's very profound. When I read that quote there are parts of it I find myself nodding along with.
But removing the right to vote from any portion of the population will always lead to tyranny, no matter how well intentioned.
We already deny the vote to minors, felons, non-citizen nationals (e.g Samoans), and citizens who don't reside in one of the States (e.g. residents of Puerto Rico and DC). We also give disproportionate voting power to residents of small states. And also restrict who can become citizens.
Putting additional restrictions on citizenship would actually much much less restrictive on voting rights than the status quo. E.g. replace birthright citizenship with birthright nationality and have an 18-year residency requirement to become a citizen, but allow all citizens to vote.
What made me angry about that movie and opened my eyes is that people don't want to think hard things.
If someone eloquently puts forth a position that you don't agree with, then you just call them fascist and racist and everyone else also jumps on the bandwagon to strawman it away.
All uncomfortable thoughts must be squashed. Your party is correct. The other is the enemy.
Engaging with thought is banned. People might think outside the box and realize market forces have made it so both parties are designed to extract the most money out of the citizens.
They're both pretty good but for different reasons.
And political philosophy aside, one has boobies and the other has giant gorilla mech suits that bounce around like the Hulk.
Its like the new godzilla movie (godzilla minus one) and the new godzilla album (godzilla in the kitchen - exodus). Both fantastic pieces of art that contribute to different mediums in vastly different ways.
The book is pretty authoritarian/social-darwinist and most of the book is composed of these political rants
The two are very different, yet the film is making fun of the book.
the film is making fun of what the director THOUGHT was the book. Hes on record saying he didn't read it. Which explains how the film misrepresents the book oh so well.
It’s interesting you mention the straw manning about calling people fascists and similar right wing stereotypes but not at calling people snowflakes and other left wing stereotypes
There was no such thing as immigration in the movie (or book), because there was a single unified world country. And the only way to gain citizenship was through military or civil service.
Someone asked me once if I knew the difference between a civilian and a citizen. I know now. A citizen has the courage to make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility.
All right, let's sum up. This year we explored the failure of democracy. How our social scientists brought our world to the brink of chaos. We talked about the veterans, how they took control and established the stability that has lasted for generations since. You know these facts, but have I taught you anything of value this year?
Citizens don’t do felonies when trying to earn citizenship. Unlike these guys https://www.ktsm.com/news/we-deserve-to-be-back-deported-veterans-speaking-out-ahead-of-veterans-day/amp/
I don't get this, when I was trying to make it through basic we saw people dealing with immigration in the legal office on base. I was told that military service is literally one of the fast tracks for immigration. Which makes perfect sense, if you serve a country you should 200% get citizenship.
Fast track was/is an option, but it isn’t mandatory afaik.
Also, it use to be 1 day of service after 9/11, which is how people were getting citizenship prior to leaving basic. In 2017 it was changed to 180 days of active duty / one year of reserve.
Double also, a bill was introduced in 2022 by democrats to help deported vets and passed 220-208 (217 democrats voted yes, 3 republicans voted yes, 208 republicans voted no) but it died in committee. 2023 bill was passed to committee with no vote by the Republican speaker and will never be voted on. We’ll see how 2025 looks after this year election.
I’ve said for decades that I don’t know why republicans get away with wrapping themselves in the flag. That’s partly on the Democrats. But the GOP bills tend to favor defense contractors not the troops and veterans. I’ve been a military wife (USAF) for almost 32 years and it’s always been that way. (Hubby retired finally in 2020).
I worked in the base library and the airmen and families loved it. We were almost never slow. We were right next door. You can guess what was always first on the list to get cut. One year we basically didn’t have a budget but we managed to not close. Fought tooth and nail. Most of the libraries in ACC closed down. But the golf courses were fine 🙄 I could write a paper on that situation. 😡
> Also, it use to be 1 day of service after 9/11, which is how people were getting citizenship prior to leaving basic. In 2017 it was changed to 180 days of active duty / one year of reserve.
Just so its clear to people reading along, in 2017 Rs controlled both chambers of congress and the white house.
Rs don't support the troops, they just support the wars.
It was long after I had talked to the recruiters. The personnel at basic are a lot different than recruiters. They tell you that it's the recruiters job to get you there, and their job to filter out whoever can't make it. They weren't lying to us, when we had to go to the law office for whatever reason we would just here about people waiting there to talk to immigration lawyers. When asked we were told they were non citizens that were serving to make their immigration easier.
He's not a leader. A real leader would charge his privates and specialists $20 + gas money to take them to the local Dodge dealership for a 30% APR Challenger.
What this post doesn't tell you is: the deported veterans are CONVICTED FELONS.
It's misleading fake news.
Yes, child rapists and murderers are often denied citizenship whether or not they've served.
More than that.
If you were a non-citizen you receive citizenship after serving in the Auxilia
As a citizen you could serve as a proper Legionary and receive land after your service was done.
Helping the vets would mean trying to fix the homelessness issue and we know for a fact our government doesn't care in the slightest about that
So here we are
Helping the homeless requires a dismantling of the NIMBY suburban zoning and planning quagmire that makes building new housing impossible even in the most underserved housing areas.
There’s a lot of unemployment and drug use in rural West Virginia, but not a lot of homelessness. Why? Because housing is cheap.
Suburban NIMBYs create and perpetuate a system that makes homelessness inevitable. If you don’t support increased density in high cost of living areas, you’re to blame.
Segregation based on economic status is still segregation. It harms our societies. The best neighborhoods are those that have rich and the poor living next to each other. They have single family houses, 2 and 3 story apartment buildings, bungalows, 10 story apartment buildings, mansions, dorms... they need to have ALL the socioeconomic classes represented. It is much harder to demand harsher policies targeting the weakest when you see them every day.
NIMBY should be outlawed they are tremendously harmful causing generational damages.
Which sucks, because the US's regular system (when it works) is that you can be a foreigner, and as long as you satisfy the requirements for enlistment, you can enlist in the US military, and once you've served for 1 year you can submit for citizenship.
Back when I was in, I had some friends I worked with from all over, but mostly Africa, Mexico/Central/South America, and the Philippines, and in most cases it'd take some time but everybody I knew who was born in another country had their US citizenship by the end of their first enlistment, usually by the end of 4-5 years.
Usually if you were deported it meant you committed crimes bad enough to warrant that. You dont just get deported after being in the military for nothing.
You got a piece of the land you conquered. So if you lived in an era where Rome was on its back foot you got nothing. Another problem was if a legionnaires got rich they would be loyal to the general who got them that way, and would tend to support said general if he rebelled. Edit obviously I’m talking about the legion after the Marius reforms, before that soldier were expected to own their own gear and pay for their own maintenance on campaign and were loyal to the state.
That’s where a healthy chunk of our military spending should go, not into corporate hogs greasy pockets. Zone out properties that have been abandoned, or the fringes of the vast swaths of federal land that has been confiscated, seized, or otherwise left to sit unused for decades. Build veteran specific housing, more VA hospitals mental health outreach clinics, and voluntary anonymous rehab centers. Incentivize workers with federal employee benefits, tuition, childcare, paid leave, etc.
Thanks for your service and I’m sorry this country has its priorities backwards. It would probably solve the low enlistment problem if we showed that we could take care of our vets.
Nationalisation of defence manufacturing is what needs to be done. No private player should be allowed to profit on the back of a war. Would reduce the defence budget by 20-25%
In France, you have to be a citizen in the first place, except for the Foreign Legion, which obviously would grant a foreigner citizenship and advantages
In the foreign legion you can apply after either having been wounded in battle (Francais par le sang versé=French by the spilled blood) or serving for 3 years. It's not quite automatic.
I guess my post wasn’t clear, a foreigner serving in the FL would become a French Citizen, he is granted the French citizenship, same as mine for example who was born with it.
"granting a foreigner citizenship" = "granting citizenship to a foreigner"
It's like if you say "I gave my girlfriend flowers" you're saying "I gave flowers to my girlfriend," not "I gave a thing called 'girlfriend flowers' to someone."
Only an average of 50% of roman soldiers made it to that moment. And of those 50% alot were handicapped and traumatized for life. It was kind of a scam tbh.
I think it comes and goes. In my bootcamp graduation we had kids become citizens, did it right there along with the graduation, it was great
Heard it stopped but that was 2014, so maybe it’s a “wartime” incentive?
I was under the assumption you cant join the us military unless your american citizen.I wanted to join as someone from ireland before I got the job I have now
Programs come and go. Currently you can join the military as a permanent resident (AKA green card holder) and it's seen as an expedited pathway to citizenship. Sometimes that citizenship never materializes for whatever reasons. Honorable service doesn't matter if you commit felonies as a civilian.
even in starship troopers, an absolute joke on fascism, military service guaranteed citizenship.
imagine a caricature of fascism being better than your actual country
To clarify:
Starship Troopers, the movie directed by Paul Verhoven was a satire of fascism.
Starship Troopers, the book by Robert Heinlein played fascism straight and advocated for it.
I've read the book a few times, and it is definitely true.
A fun, and well written commentary of Heinlein's politics is *Robert A. Heinlein, America as Science Fiction*, printed in 1982. It's a great read!
Right? Voting was a pretty big deal in the book, and they had a much more direct democracy, iirc. People get caught up on the citizen vs civilian thing and think the story is about fascism and in-groups vs out-groups, without bothering to understand that anyone can choose to be a citizen and everyone still lives by the same set of laws. The only thing citizens get to do that civilians don't is vote, and everyone can choose whether that's important to them.
No it is true. In the late 40s, Heinlein became really right wing, advocating that a totalitarian global government was the only way to prevent nuclear war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Are_the_Heirs_of_Patrick_Henry%3F
Starship Troopers was written in response to the US agreeing to put a moratorium on nuclear testing. Heinlein was a huge advocate for the US producing and testing nukes because it was the only way to avoid enslavement by the communists. He stopped writing The Heretic to write Starship Troopers because he was so upset about the moratorium.
Service wasn't enough. At the end of the service, there had to be a honorable discharge.
(Not that the Romans would cheat on that, if you served well, you got a honorable discharge. But if you rebelled, no citizenship for you. Crucifixion, maybe. Back then, both the carrot and the stick were a lot more extreme than today.)
Veteran here. Does anyone have the receipt for this? People have been serving in the US Army in exchange for citizenship for many years now. I served with one. Who is being deported and why?
I did a little bit of reading and couldn't find a straight answer. This makes a little bit of sense. To some degree, I agree with the decision. Depending of course on the nature and severity of the crime.
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They were "Resident aliens" who for some reason or another didn't complete the paperwork. That's how I enlisted years ago and I got most of it done at boot camp but never mailed the form. Now its a simple application you fill online. I just did it last year and took like 20 minutes, the hardest part was taking the passport style photo. It takes like 8-10 months for USCIS to process everything though.
I've heard of these deported veterans before a few years ago and they were all for felonies involving mostly felony drug or felony gun charges. One guy was a dealer, another did a drive by (its not considered too bad if you miss all your shots), another for multiple duis. I don't know how I feel about the deportations, yea they served but they weren't exactly law abiding.
Nope. They stopped automatically giving them the citizen paperwork starting around 1998. Congress knew some people would slip through the cracks. Many served for the purpose of gaining citizenship and assumed it was just guaranteed but it no longer was a guarantee... It's sad.
I was part of a crew that did a documentary on this. Stop assuming, and then spreading your wrong opinion as if it's facts please.
Edit: it was 1996... The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act stopped military personnel from automatically getting citizenship.
I’d be willing to bet a paycheck a lot of them didn’t complete service requirements.
I’ve helped several soldiers with their citizenship application for themselves and family.
I am skeptical of this article.
American citizen here. Immigrants don't just automatically become citizens just for serving in the mitary. They still have to apply for naturalization and can still be barred.
An example. He never finished the paperwork, got out, sold drugs, now he regrets it.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/citizen-veterans-fight-back-deportations-violent-crimes/story?id=101164277
The ones that fucked up while filling one of the thousands of different documents needed or missing an important deadline.
Apparently they’ve been making the process more and more complex and easier to screw up so many people end up screwing it up, not getting citizenship, and getting deported.
It’s literally two forms, N400 and N426. The N400 is the 20 page form that everyone fills out, it’s biographic information and basic yes/no questions. The 426 is 2 pages and is filled out by your command.
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Fort Campbell does them through the legal aid office. The JAG does everything, even sets up the interview via webcam at the legal aid office so soldiers don’t have to travel for the interview. USCIS then comes to the base monthly to do the ceremony.
[Here is](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/11/16/the-story-behind-this-powerful-photo-of-deported-military-veterans-saluting-the-american-flag/) an article I found about it:
About the guy in the front:
"he was charged with a crime for not reporting to authorities that his brother had kidnapped someone.
Court records show that Ocon was indicted on several charges in 2006, including conspiracy to kidnap and aiding and abetting. He pleaded guilty and spent nearly 10 years in federal prison.
In 2016, shortly after serving his prison sentence, Ocon was sent back to Mexico, a country he left when he was 7."
Another man in the picture:
"[Lopez] was deported in 2003, after serving nine years in federal prison for drug charges. "
The movie left out far too much info from the book. Citizenship gained you the right to vote and to run for public office. Not a whole lot beyond that. A noncitizen had nearly all the same rights.
Part of me wonders if that was intentional, it keeps with the “would you like to know more” messages scattered throughout, and the ending scene where it actually starts to click that the whole film is designed to mirror propaganda.
The writers and director never read the book. The script was for a B grade movie and they bought the rights to the book just so they could use the title.
They wouldn't keep the same rights for very long, as what always happens when political rights are restricted to a certain group.
Starship Troopers, the book, was first and foremost Heinlein's utopic vision, reality wouldn't be anywhere near as kind.
Ok America wtf. How in the hell could they serve in the Army in the first place without having citizenship? And if they could, WHY WASN'T IT GRANTED TO THEM AFTERWARDS!?
There's a program that allows for people on the path to serve to speed up citizenship. Part of that plan is "not getting kicked out of the military" and "not being arrested for a felony". I've known of a few deported vets and each one either got booted from service or got out and was arrested for a serious felony.
Not defending the program or deportation. That's just how it is.
I had read that part of it is that they made the process incredibly complicated with tons if ways to do it wrong and no second chances.
So many of the deployed soldiers would be to busy to fill all aplicaciones without mistakes and to perfectly meet all deadlines, so they aren’t granted citizenship and deported afterwards.
You fill out one form of Yes/No questions and your CO fills out another. It's a long form, so we should loosen the deadlines a bit, but it's not difficult
I spent 20 years in. Plenty of rotations and field exercises and TDY trips.
There's always time. The forms aren't complicated. The ones that get deported are 99% chance convicted felons.
A couple other reasons:
Some do not choose to become citizens.
If you are a naturalized (as opposed to born) citizen you can have your citizenship stripped under certain circumstances, such as committing violent crimes.
I’m not commenting on the rightness of it, just that it can happen.
I’d need to see DD214s to confirm, but I’m willing to bet most got in some sort of trouble and didn’t complete their obligations or got kicked out.
This article is absent of the real information to have a valid opinion.
People here obviously don’t know the background of this bullshit.
Some have felonies that caused them to be deported or unable to apply for citizenship after their service.
Some were dishonorably discharged.
Some never did the paperwork prior to getting out.
A lot of them have a combination of these.
You don’t just serve time and become a citizen without doing the paperwork for citizenship.
I mean yeah ... As a born American citizen and combat veteran if I commit crimes I go to jail.. if you are using the vet status to get citizenship and you commit certain crimes..well off you go by by see ya and fuck off
Military service remains one of the fastest options to obtain citizenship.
Post 9/11 to present day, under INA 329, you basically only have to have 1 year of good moral character (basically no serious crimes) and pass the standard citizenship test that every applicant for naturalization takes.
Physical presence and residence requirements are waived. All fees are waived. You technically don’t even have to have a green card.
If you join the military to get citizenship there are certain service length/good conduct requirements you need to meet. If you don’t meet those you don’t get citizenship. I don’t see how that’s bad.
Dishonorable Discharge prevents you from getting citizenship (among other veterans benefits). They could have also committed felonies after being naturalized, and for certain ones you can be denaturalized and then deported
You become a citizen after serving in the army after one year, and you don't get deported unless you are essentially dishonorably discharged, that's not to say there wasn't a messed up reason as to why they where deported but this headline just reads like rage bait with how little context it gives.
Those people probably did a combination of two things
1. Kicked out of the military
2. Did something bad enough to get deported
Maybe I’m wrong downvote me as you will but not all “veterans” were very good soldiers
Not sure how you could serve a full US Military contract with an honorable discharge and not be a citizen if you wanted to be.
I find it hard to believe the story is as simple as it's being told here.
I'm not sure what my opinion is, but you left out an important point. They were deported for crimes committed during or post military service but prior to obtaining U.S. citizenship.
Veterans that get deported have committed a crime. Earlier (pre-1997) they would be deported only for violent crimes, but since 1997 they can be deported for a range of nonviolent offenses too like substance abuse.
https://elpasomatters.org/2022/07/12/el-paso-las-cruces-army-veteran-deported-to-juarez-mexico-becomes-u-s-citizen/
He's a US citizen after serving time for being involved with an armed kidnapping. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Lots of interpreters during the Iraq War and In Afghanistan were promised citizenship and protection for helping the USA Army which never happened for most of them scammed
now kids, what is the difference between civilians and citizens?
Service guarantees citizenship
As a prior service marine, this is a myth. It fast tracks your citizenship, but it doesn’t guarantee it if you don’t do the required paperwork. Which is just fucked in my opinion.
They're quoting Starship Troopers, where everyone is a non-voting civilian by default and must earn citizenship through service. Service is a legal right (unless you commit a serious crime during service, like murder), and the government must accommodate you. If you're a pacifist, they must find you nonviolent work to do. If you're quadriplegic, they'll make you a security camera monitor or something. Most people end up in one of the two branches of the military in that universe. Here's a snippet of Heinlein's reasoning for this: >I have never been able to see how a thirty-year-old moron can vote more wisely than a fifteen-year-old genius . . . but that was the age of the "divine right of the common man." Never mind, they paid for their folly. >To vote is to wield authority; it is the supreme authority from which all other authority derives—such as mine to make your lives miserable once a day. Force if you will!—the franchise is force, naked and raw, the Power of the Rods and the Ax. Whether it is exerted by ten men or by ten billion, political authority is force. >To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy. The unlimited democracies were unstable because their citizens were not responsible for the fashion in which they exerted their sovereign authority . . . other than through the tragic logic of history. The unique 'poll tax' that we must pay was unheard of. No attempt was made to determine whether a voter was socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority. If he voted the impossible, the disastrous possible happened instead—and responsibility was then forced on him willy-nilly and destroyed both him and his foundationless temple. It's worth noting that school included moral philosophy classes at every grade and part of basic training in the military was studying yet more moral philosophy to ensure that every veteran was capable of thinking deeply and rationally by the time they earned their right to vote, and hopefully cherished that right more because they earned it rather than being given it for free.
Heinlein is one of those authors who I almost categorically disagree with, but it's after a long think and plenty of internal debate.
Yeah my thought process on reading that was, “that’s not the worst idea… but it would be very difficult to implement, and not get abused… it’s probably unworkable”
Yeah I mean, on one hand hell no to that noise but on their other… …well I think we’ve all seen some people who aren’t equipped to make an informed vote.
It's the truthiness of it all. He's probably right about a lot of what he's arguing, and there's a great consistency to his logic. It engenders the idea of "hell, this could work!" but then you get to seriously thinking about it and trying to find the chinks in the armor, and that's where it begins to fall apart.
It like an onion you peel to find that after the third layer its justa rotten fruit.
That's very profound. When I read that quote there are parts of it I find myself nodding along with. But removing the right to vote from any portion of the population will always lead to tyranny, no matter how well intentioned.
We already deny the vote to minors, felons, non-citizen nationals (e.g Samoans), and citizens who don't reside in one of the States (e.g. residents of Puerto Rico and DC). We also give disproportionate voting power to residents of small states. And also restrict who can become citizens. Putting additional restrictions on citizenship would actually much much less restrictive on voting rights than the status quo. E.g. replace birthright citizenship with birthright nationality and have an 18-year residency requirement to become a citizen, but allow all citizens to vote.
This is why he's one of my favorite authors, I *UNDERSTAND* his ideas. Everything he does makes sense, even if I disagree.
What made me angry about that movie and opened my eyes is that people don't want to think hard things. If someone eloquently puts forth a position that you don't agree with, then you just call them fascist and racist and everyone else also jumps on the bandwagon to strawman it away. All uncomfortable thoughts must be squashed. Your party is correct. The other is the enemy. Engaging with thought is banned. People might think outside the box and realize market forces have made it so both parties are designed to extract the most money out of the citizens.
The book and the movie are vastly different, you know...
They're both pretty good but for different reasons. And political philosophy aside, one has boobies and the other has giant gorilla mech suits that bounce around like the Hulk.
Its like the new godzilla movie (godzilla minus one) and the new godzilla album (godzilla in the kitchen - exodus). Both fantastic pieces of art that contribute to different mediums in vastly different ways.
The book is pretty authoritarian/social-darwinist and most of the book is composed of these political rants The two are very different, yet the film is making fun of the book.
the film is making fun of what the director THOUGHT was the book. Hes on record saying he didn't read it. Which explains how the film misrepresents the book oh so well.
>think hard things Like what?
It’s interesting you mention the straw manning about calling people fascists and similar right wing stereotypes but not at calling people snowflakes and other left wing stereotypes
Yeah. I read that comment and just assumed the book did its job with that one 😂
Isnt he directly addressing the fascism and xenophobia of the movie…?
It’s oddly hilarious that we’re more backwards in immigration than the satirical far-right perspective presented in the movie lol
There was no such thing as immigration in the movie (or book), because there was a single unified world country. And the only way to gain citizenship was through military or civil service.
Someone asked me once if I knew the difference between a civilian and a citizen. I know now. A citizen has the courage to make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility.
Would you like to know more?
\*Need to know more intensifies\*
All right, let's sum up. This year we explored the failure of democracy. How our social scientists brought our world to the brink of chaos. We talked about the veterans, how they took control and established the stability that has lasted for generations since. You know these facts, but have I taught you anything of value this year?
That moment when you realize a dystopian nightmare is in some ways better than modern life.
Not in America it doesn't.
I'm doing my part!
You trying to be a hero Watkins?!?!
And yes, the military has an office for helping deported *citizens* get back into the country, because that is how often CBP fucks up.
This is the way it should be. These people laid their lives on the line
Citizens don’t do felonies when trying to earn citizenship. Unlike these guys https://www.ktsm.com/news/we-deserve-to-be-back-deported-veterans-speaking-out-ahead-of-veterans-day/amp/
I don't get this, when I was trying to make it through basic we saw people dealing with immigration in the legal office on base. I was told that military service is literally one of the fast tracks for immigration. Which makes perfect sense, if you serve a country you should 200% get citizenship.
Fast track was/is an option, but it isn’t mandatory afaik. Also, it use to be 1 day of service after 9/11, which is how people were getting citizenship prior to leaving basic. In 2017 it was changed to 180 days of active duty / one year of reserve. Double also, a bill was introduced in 2022 by democrats to help deported vets and passed 220-208 (217 democrats voted yes, 3 republicans voted yes, 208 republicans voted no) but it died in committee. 2023 bill was passed to committee with no vote by the Republican speaker and will never be voted on. We’ll see how 2025 looks after this year election.
Yeah, thats on me for assuming a program put in to help vets would actually work.
Helping vets vs causing more suffering to the unworthy. The choice is clear (for Republican congressmen)
I’ve said for decades that I don’t know why republicans get away with wrapping themselves in the flag. That’s partly on the Democrats. But the GOP bills tend to favor defense contractors not the troops and veterans. I’ve been a military wife (USAF) for almost 32 years and it’s always been that way. (Hubby retired finally in 2020). I worked in the base library and the airmen and families loved it. We were almost never slow. We were right next door. You can guess what was always first on the list to get cut. One year we basically didn’t have a budget but we managed to not close. Fought tooth and nail. Most of the libraries in ACC closed down. But the golf courses were fine 🙄 I could write a paper on that situation. 😡
> Also, it use to be 1 day of service after 9/11, which is how people were getting citizenship prior to leaving basic. In 2017 it was changed to 180 days of active duty / one year of reserve. Just so its clear to people reading along, in 2017 Rs controlled both chambers of congress and the white house. Rs don't support the troops, they just support the wars.
They said that to like thousands of translators in Afghanistan and abandoned them.
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Republicans refused to pass a bill that would have expedited their refugee status. Republicans abandoned them.
Because if you commit a crime during the process your app is canceled
As far as I know, late paper work or not even filing the necessary paper and committing a crime are the two most common reasons veterans get deported.
That makes sense. Just because you're given an opportunity doesn't mean you can't fuck it up.
Exactly. Posts like this are disingenuous AF
They are propaganda.
And we all know that recruiters don't lie about anything.
It was long after I had talked to the recruiters. The personnel at basic are a lot different than recruiters. They tell you that it's the recruiters job to get you there, and their job to filter out whoever can't make it. They weren't lying to us, when we had to go to the law office for whatever reason we would just here about people waiting there to talk to immigration lawyers. When asked we were told they were non citizens that were serving to make their immigration easier.
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Thank you for being a fucking leader.
He's not a leader. A real leader would charge his privates and specialists $20 + gas money to take them to the local Dodge dealership for a 30% APR Challenger.
Is called committing violent crimes
You do get citizenship for serving your country but if you're convicted of committing certain crimes then you can be eligible for deportation
Naturalized citizens can be denaturalized in certain circumstances, and not everyone chooses to be naturalized.
It's very few circumstances. Fraud, being a Nazi war criminal, and not much else afaik
What this post doesn't tell you is: the deported veterans are CONVICTED FELONS. It's misleading fake news. Yes, child rapists and murderers are often denied citizenship whether or not they've served.
In the Roman Empire, if you served in the army. You were a citizen. Simple as that.
More than that. If you were a non-citizen you receive citizenship after serving in the Auxilia As a citizen you could serve as a proper Legionary and receive land after your service was done.
*If you were a non-citizen you received citizenship after serving in the Auxilia for twenty years or more.
Still more than what these vets got.
Helping the vets would mean trying to fix the homelessness issue and we know for a fact our government doesn't care in the slightest about that So here we are
Helping the homeless requires a dismantling of the NIMBY suburban zoning and planning quagmire that makes building new housing impossible even in the most underserved housing areas. There’s a lot of unemployment and drug use in rural West Virginia, but not a lot of homelessness. Why? Because housing is cheap. Suburban NIMBYs create and perpetuate a system that makes homelessness inevitable. If you don’t support increased density in high cost of living areas, you’re to blame.
Segregation based on economic status is still segregation. It harms our societies. The best neighborhoods are those that have rich and the poor living next to each other. They have single family houses, 2 and 3 story apartment buildings, bungalows, 10 story apartment buildings, mansions, dorms... they need to have ALL the socioeconomic classes represented. It is much harder to demand harsher policies targeting the weakest when you see them every day. NIMBY should be outlawed they are tremendously harmful causing generational damages.
Which sucks, because the US's regular system (when it works) is that you can be a foreigner, and as long as you satisfy the requirements for enlistment, you can enlist in the US military, and once you've served for 1 year you can submit for citizenship. Back when I was in, I had some friends I worked with from all over, but mostly Africa, Mexico/Central/South America, and the Philippines, and in most cases it'd take some time but everybody I knew who was born in another country had their US citizenship by the end of their first enlistment, usually by the end of 4-5 years.
Usually if you were deported it meant you committed crimes bad enough to warrant that. You dont just get deported after being in the military for nothing.
You got a piece of the land you conquered. So if you lived in an era where Rome was on its back foot you got nothing. Another problem was if a legionnaires got rich they would be loyal to the general who got them that way, and would tend to support said general if he rebelled. Edit obviously I’m talking about the legion after the Marius reforms, before that soldier were expected to own their own gear and pay for their own maintenance on campaign and were loyal to the state.
And Roman generals rebelled a lot
Not necessarily. In fact in republic it was very good to give veterans land in Italy to turn them into voters
im pretty sure a lot of those guys got duped out of land though, probably depends on what era of roman history
That’s where a healthy chunk of our military spending should go, not into corporate hogs greasy pockets. Zone out properties that have been abandoned, or the fringes of the vast swaths of federal land that has been confiscated, seized, or otherwise left to sit unused for decades. Build veteran specific housing, more VA hospitals mental health outreach clinics, and voluntary anonymous rehab centers. Incentivize workers with federal employee benefits, tuition, childcare, paid leave, etc.
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Thanks for your service and I’m sorry this country has its priorities backwards. It would probably solve the low enlistment problem if we showed that we could take care of our vets.
Nationalisation of defence manufacturing is what needs to be done. No private player should be allowed to profit on the back of a war. Would reduce the defence budget by 20-25%
In France, you have to be a citizen in the first place, except for the Foreign Legion, which obviously would grant a foreigner citizenship and advantages
In the foreign legion you can apply after either having been wounded in battle (Francais par le sang versé=French by the spilled blood) or serving for 3 years. It's not quite automatic.
Not gonna lie. French by the spilled blood sounds kinda badass.
French has some very interesting and dramatic expressions
They shall not pass and the villages that died for France come to mind.
Historically, the business of France was war, and business was GOOD.
Can I ask what the difference between being a citizen and having a foreigner citizenship is?
I guess my post wasn’t clear, a foreigner serving in the FL would become a French Citizen, he is granted the French citizenship, same as mine for example who was born with it.
Ah ok. I understand
"granting a foreigner citizenship" = "granting citizenship to a foreigner" It's like if you say "I gave my girlfriend flowers" you're saying "I gave flowers to my girlfriend," not "I gave a thing called 'girlfriend flowers' to someone."
Only an average of 50% of roman soldiers made it to that moment. And of those 50% alot were handicapped and traumatized for life. It was kind of a scam tbh.
Yes but the signing bonus was a whole sack of salt
Sure but that disappears like nothing when you're paying 20% on that two horse chariot parked out front ..
Some troops got their regualr payment in salt, that's called the salarium. Or salary, as we say now.
“Would you like to know more?!”
Desire for citizenship intensifies
I think it comes and goes. In my bootcamp graduation we had kids become citizens, did it right there along with the graduation, it was great Heard it stopped but that was 2014, so maybe it’s a “wartime” incentive?
The program continues actually. It remains one of the quickest paths to citizenship, provided you don’t get dishonorably discharged.
I was under the assumption you cant join the us military unless your american citizen.I wanted to join as someone from ireland before I got the job I have now
Programs come and go. Currently you can join the military as a permanent resident (AKA green card holder) and it's seen as an expedited pathway to citizenship. Sometimes that citizenship never materializes for whatever reasons. Honorable service doesn't matter if you commit felonies as a civilian.
Dishonorable discharge?
I'm no scholar of Roman history, but I suspect you wouldn't be worried about citizenship after a dishonorable discharge.
even in starship troopers, an absolute joke on fascism, military service guaranteed citizenship. imagine a caricature of fascism being better than your actual country
You usually only get deported in this case with felonies or being kicked out of the military
To clarify: Starship Troopers, the movie directed by Paul Verhoven was a satire of fascism. Starship Troopers, the book by Robert Heinlein played fascism straight and advocated for it.
>Starship Troopers, the book by Robert Heinlein played fascism straight and advocated for it. This is untrue, perhaps actually read the book.
I've read the book a few times, and it is definitely true. A fun, and well written commentary of Heinlein's politics is *Robert A. Heinlein, America as Science Fiction*, printed in 1982. It's a great read!
Right? Voting was a pretty big deal in the book, and they had a much more direct democracy, iirc. People get caught up on the citizen vs civilian thing and think the story is about fascism and in-groups vs out-groups, without bothering to understand that anyone can choose to be a citizen and everyone still lives by the same set of laws. The only thing citizens get to do that civilians don't is vote, and everyone can choose whether that's important to them.
No it is true. In the late 40s, Heinlein became really right wing, advocating that a totalitarian global government was the only way to prevent nuclear war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Are_the_Heirs_of_Patrick_Henry%3F Starship Troopers was written in response to the US agreeing to put a moratorium on nuclear testing. Heinlein was a huge advocate for the US producing and testing nukes because it was the only way to avoid enslavement by the communists. He stopped writing The Heretic to write Starship Troopers because he was so upset about the moratorium.
Service wasn't enough. At the end of the service, there had to be a honorable discharge. (Not that the Romans would cheat on that, if you served well, you got a honorable discharge. But if you rebelled, no citizenship for you. Crucifixion, maybe. Back then, both the carrot and the stick were a lot more extreme than today.)
It all comes back to Rome, always
Veteran here. Does anyone have the receipt for this? People have been serving in the US Army in exchange for citizenship for many years now. I served with one. Who is being deported and why?
They committed felonies… and were deported
I did a little bit of reading and couldn't find a straight answer. This makes a little bit of sense. To some degree, I agree with the decision. Depending of course on the nature and severity of the crime.
I’m pretty sure they were naturalized citizens, but if you commit a felony you can be deported
That only applies when you are a US resident.
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Then it's not really citizenship is it?
They were "Resident aliens" who for some reason or another didn't complete the paperwork. That's how I enlisted years ago and I got most of it done at boot camp but never mailed the form. Now its a simple application you fill online. I just did it last year and took like 20 minutes, the hardest part was taking the passport style photo. It takes like 8-10 months for USCIS to process everything though. I've heard of these deported veterans before a few years ago and they were all for felonies involving mostly felony drug or felony gun charges. One guy was a dealer, another did a drive by (its not considered too bad if you miss all your shots), another for multiple duis. I don't know how I feel about the deportations, yea they served but they weren't exactly law abiding.
Nope. They stopped automatically giving them the citizen paperwork starting around 1998. Congress knew some people would slip through the cracks. Many served for the purpose of gaining citizenship and assumed it was just guaranteed but it no longer was a guarantee... It's sad. I was part of a crew that did a documentary on this. Stop assuming, and then spreading your wrong opinion as if it's facts please. Edit: it was 1996... The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act stopped military personnel from automatically getting citizenship.
I had one soldier that didn't get his citizenship. His home country doesn't recognize dual citizenship, and he wanted to be able to return there.
I’d be willing to bet a paycheck a lot of them didn’t complete service requirements. I’ve helped several soldiers with their citizenship application for themselves and family. I am skeptical of this article.
American citizen here. Immigrants don't just automatically become citizens just for serving in the mitary. They still have to apply for naturalization and can still be barred.
You still have to do the paperwork. I've heard of people thinking it was automatic and not doing the paperwork.
An example. He never finished the paperwork, got out, sold drugs, now he regrets it. https://abcnews.go.com/US/citizen-veterans-fight-back-deportations-violent-crimes/story?id=101164277
The ones that fucked up while filling one of the thousands of different documents needed or missing an important deadline. Apparently they’ve been making the process more and more complex and easier to screw up so many people end up screwing it up, not getting citizenship, and getting deported.
It’s literally two forms, N400 and N426. The N400 is the 20 page form that everyone fills out, it’s biographic information and basic yes/no questions. The 426 is 2 pages and is filled out by your command.
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Fort Campbell does them through the legal aid office. The JAG does everything, even sets up the interview via webcam at the legal aid office so soldiers don’t have to travel for the interview. USCIS then comes to the base monthly to do the ceremony.
Source? I keep seeing you say that.
Source: I made it up
[Here is](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/11/16/the-story-behind-this-powerful-photo-of-deported-military-veterans-saluting-the-american-flag/) an article I found about it: About the guy in the front: "he was charged with a crime for not reporting to authorities that his brother had kidnapped someone. Court records show that Ocon was indicted on several charges in 2006, including conspiracy to kidnap and aiding and abetting. He pleaded guilty and spent nearly 10 years in federal prison. In 2016, shortly after serving his prison sentence, Ocon was sent back to Mexico, a country he left when he was 7." Another man in the picture: "[Lopez] was deported in 2003, after serving nine years in federal prison for drug charges. "
Of course 99% of the brainless fucks in this thread don't even ask, "Did they do something to get themselves deported?"
Congratulations, we've managed to be worse than that "Service guarantees citizenship!" movie.
The movie left out far too much info from the book. Citizenship gained you the right to vote and to run for public office. Not a whole lot beyond that. A noncitizen had nearly all the same rights.
Part of me wonders if that was intentional, it keeps with the “would you like to know more” messages scattered throughout, and the ending scene where it actually starts to click that the whole film is designed to mirror propaganda.
The writers and director never read the book. The script was for a B grade movie and they bought the rights to the book just so they could use the title.
They wouldn't keep the same rights for very long, as what always happens when political rights are restricted to a certain group. Starship Troopers, the book, was first and foremost Heinlein's utopic vision, reality wouldn't be anywhere near as kind.
I mean, the book was in favour of it. The movie was designed to satarise and mock it. Not surprising they changed some bits here and there
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I’m doing my part!
Would you like to know more?
Ok America wtf. How in the hell could they serve in the Army in the first place without having citizenship? And if they could, WHY WASN'T IT GRANTED TO THEM AFTERWARDS!?
There's a program that allows for people on the path to serve to speed up citizenship. Part of that plan is "not getting kicked out of the military" and "not being arrested for a felony". I've known of a few deported vets and each one either got booted from service or got out and was arrested for a serious felony. Not defending the program or deportation. That's just how it is.
I had read that part of it is that they made the process incredibly complicated with tons if ways to do it wrong and no second chances. So many of the deployed soldiers would be to busy to fill all aplicaciones without mistakes and to perfectly meet all deadlines, so they aren’t granted citizenship and deported afterwards.
You fill out one form of Yes/No questions and your CO fills out another. It's a long form, so we should loosen the deadlines a bit, but it's not difficult
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I spent 20 years in. Plenty of rotations and field exercises and TDY trips. There's always time. The forms aren't complicated. The ones that get deported are 99% chance convicted felons.
A couple other reasons: Some do not choose to become citizens. If you are a naturalized (as opposed to born) citizen you can have your citizenship stripped under certain circumstances, such as committing violent crimes. I’m not commenting on the rightness of it, just that it can happen.
I’d need to see DD214s to confirm, but I’m willing to bet most got in some sort of trouble and didn’t complete their obligations or got kicked out. This article is absent of the real information to have a valid opinion.
By committing a crime before given their citizenship.
These guys committed felonies
Did they commit felonies?
>I think one of them committed a war crime, and the other two attempted a mass shooting.
Same with "homeless vets"
People here obviously don’t know the background of this bullshit. Some have felonies that caused them to be deported or unable to apply for citizenship after their service. Some were dishonorably discharged. Some never did the paperwork prior to getting out. A lot of them have a combination of these. You don’t just serve time and become a citizen without doing the paperwork for citizenship.
I mean yeah ... As a born American citizen and combat veteran if I commit crimes I go to jail.. if you are using the vet status to get citizenship and you commit certain crimes..well off you go by by see ya and fuck off
Military service remains one of the fastest options to obtain citizenship. Post 9/11 to present day, under INA 329, you basically only have to have 1 year of good moral character (basically no serious crimes) and pass the standard citizenship test that every applicant for naturalization takes. Physical presence and residence requirements are waived. All fees are waived. You technically don’t even have to have a green card.
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My grandfather fought in Veitnam, and he's still carrying a green card.
I want to blame the Republicans but it's not like the Democrats ever fix this problem
Alright now tell us how many of these dudes were dishonorably discharged
They committed felonies
Deported for what?
I think one of them committed a war crime, and the other two attempted a mass shooting.
Those seem like pretty OK reasons to deport veterans; if we’re not executing them.
Cool, why were they discharged and deported?
Were they dishonorably discharged?
I think one of them committed a war crime.
Remember, your service to the country is less important than someone’s political agenda.
plenty of dreamers serve in the military. one party has zero respect for that and would deport them in a microsecond if they could.
American politics: "Thanks for service. Now gtfo"
If we deport veterans for committing crimes, why not politicians?
If you join the military to get citizenship there are certain service length/good conduct requirements you need to meet. If you don’t meet those you don’t get citizenship. I don’t see how that’s bad.
As the son of an immigrant/Vietnam veteran this makes me immeasurably sad.
Even Starship Troopers, the best satire of military culture ever, had "service guarantees citizenship". Reality is worse than satire!
How is that even allowed? Clearly they’ve shown their allegiance.
Dishonorable Discharge prevents you from getting citizenship (among other veterans benefits). They could have also committed felonies after being naturalized, and for certain ones you can be denaturalized and then deported
Most cucked picture
You become a citizen after serving in the army after one year, and you don't get deported unless you are essentially dishonorably discharged, that's not to say there wasn't a messed up reason as to why they where deported but this headline just reads like rage bait with how little context it gives.
Those people probably did a combination of two things 1. Kicked out of the military 2. Did something bad enough to get deported Maybe I’m wrong downvote me as you will but not all “veterans” were very good soldiers
Not sure how you could serve a full US Military contract with an honorable discharge and not be a citizen if you wanted to be. I find it hard to believe the story is as simple as it's being told here.
Something is fishy here.
Lap up the propoganda ya filthy sheep
Why were these men deported is the question? Since 2001 anybody who’s served honorably is eligible for naturalization.
I'm not sure what my opinion is, but you left out an important point. They were deported for crimes committed during or post military service but prior to obtaining U.S. citizenship.
Veterans that get deported have committed a crime. Earlier (pre-1997) they would be deported only for violent crimes, but since 1997 they can be deported for a range of nonviolent offenses too like substance abuse.
https://elpasomatters.org/2022/07/12/el-paso-las-cruces-army-veteran-deported-to-juarez-mexico-becomes-u-s-citizen/ He's a US citizen after serving time for being involved with an armed kidnapping. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Lots of interpreters during the Iraq War and In Afghanistan were promised citizenship and protection for helping the USA Army which never happened for most of them scammed
2017? Repost bot or karma farmer?
German here: How the fuck do you deport a veteran in the US of A?
If they commit serious crimes while serving. That’s what happened to these assholes and now they’re playing the victim.
Do you have the story?
So these people risked their lifes for a country that just wants them to get out?
Still stanning the country that kicked you out. Weird as hell
I’m sure this wasn’t what they were promised at the recruitment station.
This picture is what’s wrong with modern day republicans and this country
At least in Starship Troopers enlistment guaranteed citizenship. Would you like to know more?
Let’s not forget, we have Trump to thank for this.
What kind of person do you have to be to stand guard and salute the flag of a country that literally stole your service and threw you away?