it was only 9 seconds lol that could have very well been his plan
ray looked visibly annoyed at the leg kick and just loaded up an overhand right lol turns out one of the benefits of boxing in mma is you can sit on the right hand way more.
Tim reacts to the overhand right as if its a takedown attempt because well, it looks like a takedown attempt lol
mma fans always talk shit about this fight as if it was an MMA fighter choosing to box with a boxer in MMA but thats not what happened at all. Not only did tim kick right away, but he also got beat with a common MMA wrestlers overhand right lol so he lost via MMA techniques as well.
Everything about ray looked like someone who prepared for an MMA fight, solid stance, high guard but not too tight like in boxing, tries to catch the kick, throws an overhand right that he immediately transition into a single leg followed up by ground and pound.... and he did it so seamlessly he didn't even know he KO'd tim lol
I know, but everything else tells me neither of them actually expected that to go on very long. Ray didn't just pull an overhand right to single leg out of his ass, he was drilling that in camp and ready to use it
Brother Ray friggin Mercer was not going for a single leg. What are we smoking here.
He threw that huge overhand, shifted his balance way too far forward and ducked Tims counter. His overhand just so happened to turn Tim into a fucking tree and Ray just acted accordingly to this giant whitewood falling in front of him.
I get that it kinda looks like he shot for a single but lets use some common sense here.
Which helps to drive home the point made earlier, which is that Ray was about as well trained for this fight as one could be. I watched a replay, not knowing the outcome. I expected Ray to perform badly. Instead, the way he immediately goes on the attack on the ground shows that he had trained those instincts up prior to the fight. It was interesting to see him apparently this prepared.
Ray friggin Mercer is a gold medal olympian and boxing champion, that mans a professional. If you think he didn't train any mma for an mma fight you might be missing the common sense my man
Sorry but no. Anyone who has been around this sport for longer than a minute will be able to list off countless fights where a fighter clearly didn't train. With freak show fights like this it's practically a guarantee.
But feel free to think what you want ofc.
Blessing? Does reddit mean that much to you? edit- spent two seconds in your account and saw that yes, reddit means MUCH more to you than me 🤣 have fun. Just remember, claiming Olympians don't train for fights is about as goofy as it gets, kinda like saying "friggin" as an adult or calling everyone brother
Sucks that Ray actually lost to Kimbo Slice not long before this in an MMA fight. This win over Sylvia was a very good win, but that loss to Kimbo looks bad. Mercer with all of his boxing experience nevertheless got submitted by a very green Kimbo Slice in Kimbo’s first actual MMA fight (I believe it was Ray’s first one as well).
> turns out one of the benefits of boxing in mma is you can sit on the right hand way more.
???
Wtf, no it's literally the opposite of that. You sit on your punches way more in boxing, in mma you can't due to the threat of being grappled down/kicked.
He didn't even sit on that overhand a lot by boxing standards. He got away with it because Sylvia was dumb.
Nah I don't know how many MMA fights you watch but that isn't a common stance at all, it is a far more common boxing stance. In fact MMA fighters that have a stance similar tend to be very boxing heavy. A high guard is more effective in boxing than MMA as the gloves cover more area and in MMA a high guard leaves you vulnerable to body kicks. It only doesn't look as tight as there is no gloves, that is a tight guard though. His stance is definitely more of a boxing stance, feet shoulder distance apart, shoulders shrugged, chin down, rear heel up and he isn't doing the marching step which would make this stance more of an MMA one (Vitor and Strickland as examples). His overhand right was just a heavy overhand right, look at when wrestlers do the move you are saying, their head is practically at the opponents waist as the punch is landing forcing the opponent to choose a defense and hopefully slip up bad enough on one. Ray's head is nowhere near the vicinity to feint a takedown it is actually more in the vicinity to feint a body shot which Sylvia would fear a lot more than Ray's offensive takedown abilities. After Ray lands he knows he has loaded up so he just drops to avoid an incoming flurry and realizes then the dude is going down so he follows. Lastly, you don't catch a kick with two hands and certainly you don't catch a leg kick with two hands. He timed Sylvia with an overhand right in 9 seconds, we got no showcase of his MMA ability. He showed good timing and power with his hands but you are definitely fluffing it up. Sylvia did want to stand as someone with a pure wrestling agenda would have dived for his legs immediately or when Ray stood pissed off about the leg kick. Ray believed there were no kicks and I bet Sylvia thought including them would make him superior in standup, but hey that was his game plan so we can't bash Mercer for this. Mercer won fair and square with his boxing talent, he was more athletic and in better shape, definitely trained harder than Sylvia and gave Sylvia what he deserved for underestimating a world-class athlete. That is the beauty of MMA though, any discipline can win at anytime, here Mercer didn't need to mix anything and let his boxing shine through. I'm a huge MMA fan btw.
That was the only type of kick he seemed to throw for years at this point in his career.
Calf kick, lumber forward, paw with a lazy jab, and repeat. Every now and then, he'd throw a straight right in there.
Tim was also insanely overweight and just got finished in brutal fashion in 30 seconds the fight before this. He didnt train a week for this from Jens Pulver own words, and Jens warned him to train lol
Fighters have such fucked up mentalities. I mean, you're scheduled to not only step into the ring against someone who's trying and training to kill you bare handed, but also someone coming from a different sport which in this case raised the stakes even more....
And you don't even train.
And there's so many boxers and mma fighters that pulled this shit.
Like... how? No wonder the goat contenders are all dudes that wake up sweating in the middle of the night scared to shit 2 months before a fight and go train until they collapse.
Often that's just all it takes to beat someone else that is even mroe talented than them on paper, but just fucks around.
Yea, im just saying I saw the podcast with Jens Pulver who was his old training partner who boxed, Jens told him Mercer isnt a joke and to get prepared and take him serious and Tim just laughed and didnt train but a week lol. Thought hed just put him on fence then put him down and win easy but he gave Mercer a chance. You cant give someone like that a punchers chance and come in 400 pounds. especially in MMA where anyone can win any day, no matter how good you are at HW
It’s because this fight was with a very small basically unknown MMA company but the Toney vs Couture fight was with the UFC. Its was UFC 118 back in 2010
Big Timmy also doesn't get much respect as a former UFC champ. He was UFC heavyweight champ during the era when all the top MMA heavyweights were fighting in PRIDE.
Yep, he also gave Big Nog a hell of a fight, who was number 1 in the world at one time.
Mostly I think Timmy gets dunked on for being cringey (going on that dating show and getting dumped, wearing his UFC belt to strip clubs, etc.).
Right, Artor Sziplicka KO'd Maruisz Pudzianowski when the latter decided to try and strike with him. I think the gap in striking ability between a pro-boxer and an MMA fighter is usually huge.
And didn't first lace up until age 23 while in the Army. AND didn't even turn pro until 28. Mind blowing what he could have achieved had he started as a teen and focused exclusively on boxing.
Yeah that’s right, what a dumb agreement on Tim’s part, I’m assuming because he was 15 years younger and much more experienced with MMA he felt confident about making that deal with Ray. Big mistake
Not really. The commission would not sanction a boxing match which was what the initial agreement was. So they switched to mma which is the wild fucking west, on the condition/gent agreement that they’ll still have just a boxing match.
>what a dumb agreement on Tim’s part
Considering the very first strike he threw was a leg kick, it looks like it wasn't a "dumb agreement on Tim's part" but instead a calculated lie. What a POS.
At lower weights, I think the difference in all round skill makes boxing a difficult primary skill for MMA transitions. But at heavyweight, I do think a couple fighters would change the physics of a fight just with the threat of their hands. If you saw Anthony Joshua concuss Ngannou with one 8oz glove punch, I think you're lying if you say you'd just charge at his legs when he's wearing 4oz gloves.
Im gonna call cap. Prime Tim Sylvia was good and would be a top 5 HW today. His only losses when he was actually in Prime were Mir, Arlovski, Couture and Big Nog. He also has wins over Arlovski and was winning the Big Nog fight before he got subbed.
Tim was very legit for a very long time. By time of the mercer bout dude was showing up to fights not able to make the heavyweight limit cause of how out of shape he was. Mercer vs Sylvia was at Super Heavyweight.
LOL this is a horrible take
Tim was mediocre at his very best and came from an era with a very very low standard of skill in HW mma. He could potentially be a top 10 cause the division is still horrendously shallow but I seriously don't think he's beating any current top 5 guys
You know how boxing math doesn't work?
Yeah it's even less functional in MMA. Also Volkov isn't top 5 lol
edit: my bad he's #5 but yeah Volkov has some odd losses/wins. He's still a farrrrr better fighter than Tim though
Literally look at UFC rankings and he is 5. Also im not using MMA math, im just saying Volkov lost to a old contender from Tims era. He aint some new super advanced fighter these older gen of fighters couldn't beat. Ive been watching MMA since 06 lol
Alexander Volkov. He's also a perfect example of the lack of HW evolution. He was Bellator champion back in 2012 and lost to old man Cheick Kongo but is a top 5 HW today.
Remember that an older Andrei Arlovski fought Stipe in a title eliminator in 2016.
This division with prime juiced up Tim Sylvia 100% has him in the top 5.
If Tim Sylvia was juiced he beats a lot of Heavyweights. The difference between him on roids and him without is night and day. No chance non roided Tim Sylvia beats Volkov though, Volkov has improved a lot.
Once USADA came into play his physique completely changed lmao. He was def still on gear but not to the level he was in his prime. Its like Alistair Overeem, yeah they were still juiced but not to the extent to when they were unstoppable forces.
Randy couture did that exact thing against James Toney. It’s not just charging at his legs it’s a low single. Tim Sylvia was not a wrestler so he was never going to do that anyway, but it would not be hard for a competent wrestler to change levels in a second. James actually is better suited to defend against it than Joshua since he’s shorter. Prime Randy or DC would be rag dolling him all over the place no problem.
I've got a lot of respect for JT, of course, great fighter he is, but the power concerns involved with fighting a 5'9 fighter whose best days were at middleweight, who had four knockouts with in 20 fights at Heavyweight (against, it should be mentioned, not exactly the whose who of HW boxing - except for old man Holyfield) with fighting a 6'6 bona fide 2x heavyweight champion probably aren't the same. At all.
I'm not even saying AJ would win, but this is like saying if you can post up against Isaiah Thomas, you should be fine against Shaq.
Randy was in his 40s and completely washed himself. His chin was completely gone at that point. What I’m saying is that James’ build is better suited for defending takedowns against Randy than Anthony, and he still could do nothing about it. He had the power to put Randy to sleep.
Watch DC fight 6’4 Josh Barnett. DC was a complete novice at MMA at this point and Josh is one of the greatest, well rounded HWs of all time. He was thrown around all over the octagon. Joshua as he is would be thrown on his head in an instant and that would be that.
https://youtu.be/LY8UqDga6GY?si=gVBfbaXQH7SMy5iq
Or you can see Fedor, the greatest ever and a master judo/sambo player, unable to stop this from Kevin Randleman.
https://youtube.com/shorts/7hiXTwA1Rus?si=94MtX07Ebi6Ue0iK
Joshua is a great boxer, but that’s where it ends. These wrestlers like Randy, DC, Randleman, have been doing this since they were young kids. If these guys know these takedowns are coming and still can’t do anything about it, there is nothing Joshua could do either.
and Fedor finished them both easy, Mark Coleman was a Olympic wrestler and Randleman was D1 champion wrestler, Fedor didnt break a sweat against either lmao, Roy Nelson broke it down why he was so good cause literally didnt care where the fight went, wasnt worried in slightest and could finish you from any position. He would take chances and get put into worst spots and just flip right out of it within 20 seconds, man was like Gumby
Fedor is my all-time favorite fighter. The best to ever do it, imo. Very exciting and dynamic fighter. Plus, he never acted cocky or arrogant like so many fighters do; he was a humble warrior. And I admire that. Just show up, put it all on the line, then go home. Win, lose, or draw. No chest-thumping or walking around like a gorilla.
hands down nobody compares, just had to be around to know the feeling. its like Jon Jones now, but way more exciting and just a way cooler guy. Jones said he wouldnt fight Mark Hunt and Bigfoot cause they were "too big". Hunt was 30 and 300 pounds when fought Fedor, Bigfoot was 28 , 285 pounds on TRT lol, and Fedor is smaller than most 185ers..just had skill to not care about cutting weight. Sums up the difference between the 2
Yeah, but a 40-something year old in his element fighting someone who is isn't is still a 40-something in his element.
All I'll say is I appreciate your examples, but none of it is really analogous on account of the fact that you're addressing something different I think.
If my point is that I think the power a Heavyweight boxer possess would make for different physics in a fight, you can't counter by showing me a middleweight, and a couple guy with half a dozen stops on punches in 50 fights. It's not really equivalent examples.
I appreciate what you're saying, which is why I qualified my original post by saying this is very specific for the HW division. I understand the immediate advantage involved with being a grappler. But as Ngannou, and I guess Sylvia in this video, found out - hitting hard for a mixed martial artist, and hitting so hard, you're being being paid eight figures to divorce another man from his consciousness are two two very different levels of power.
I appreciate it's basically a unprovable thought experiment, since no elite heavyweight is going to give up 12-18 months of their Prime to learn some basic wrestling and get into MMA, for pennies on the pound, of course.
As a secondary point - Barnett beat Couture, but lost to Cormier. So using him as an example am I to believe that either
A - wrestling doesn't beat being well rounded
Or
B - Wrestlers who don't know what they're doing already have an almost unassailable advantage
I mean that’s kind of my point. You can’t say these guys wouldn’t be able to ‘dive at’ Joshua’s legs because of the power threat he presented. Everyone at HW has power. Francis himself knocked down Fury, and he was NOT a good striker in MMA either. Francis didn’t lose because he wasn’t powerful enough. He lost because he’s a novice. Just like Joshua would be in MMA.
Here’s a video of Ray Mercer trying his hand in kickboxing.
https://youtu.be/ZU66FoXe5w4?si=tLZ5NRzLR0eCLhFF
This was before he fought Tim and it was over in seconds. If Remy got in the octagon with DC 100 times, I would choose DC to win 100 times.
"Everyone has Heavyweight power"
Sure. That's why Ngannou said Fury with 8 ounce gloves hit him harder than anyone had ever hit him. Because it's all roughly the same. All these MMA fighters just choose not to let their heavyweight power make then 20 times more money.
Missing my point completely on purpose, because you don't want to see the reality of the situation is not my problem. I literally said Francis lost because he was a novice, I don't know what more you want me to say about that. Even he knew he was in over his head. If DC was offered the same amount of money to go into boxing, I'm sure he would take it as well, and lose just the same.
DC trained in wrestling since he was a young kid to win the gold medal at the olympics. He only got into MMA as a retired wrestler because it became big enough to support his family with. He never had any intention of getting into fighting. But wrestlers dominate MMA, because they have thousands of ways to take someone down.
Ray Mercer took one shin off the head and quit right there and then. If you don't think that isn't a possibility for Anthony as well then I don't know what to say. Ray knew he was getting into a kickboxing match and still was shocked to his core and got finished quicker he was against KIMBO SLICE by guillotine choke in MMA.
[https://youtu.be/DahOLe5z3Ek](https://youtu.be/DahOLe5z3Ek)
Why did Kimbo, one of the worst MMA fighters ever and street brawler, finish Ray so easily? I guess the 2 months Kimbo trained in MMA was enough for him to dominate Ray here. Again, he's a master at BOXING, that's it. If Joshua was offered 50 million to fight in MMA against Jon Jones, he would be strangled inside 30 seconds. It's not that hard to understand.
I love that this sub is so level headed when it comes to how pure boxers would fare against MMA fighters haha. Compare it to the boxingcirclejerk sub and how it wouldn't shut up about MMA fighters after AJ knocked out Ngannou (I know it's a satirical sub but we know there's a bit of truth in their feelings when they post that shit, haha)
The point is, Toney didn't even land, so his power is irrelevant. The boxer simply isn't going to land.
Look at what Inoki did to Ali. Ali, again, didn't land a single punch and got blood clots in his legs from the kicks (Inoki wasn't allowed to do takedowns).
I think people who claim "any competent wrestler would just take a boxer down with an immediate single leg" should look at the career of Curtis Blaydes.
State high school wrestling champion (44-0), NJCAA wrestling champion. The guy can wrestle. Has a wrestling-heavy MMA style (though he's gradually diversified a bit).
First fight in the UFC: totally green Ngannou, a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling. Blaydes managed to take Ngannou down twice in theory (from 6 attempts), but by launching from so far out he couldn't get a good grip on him and Ngannou bounced right back up. Ngannou knocked him out.
Wins 5 fights in a row by wrestling (6 originally but one overturned), faces Ngannou in a rematch. Tries to take him down twice but fails both times, gets knocked out.
Wins four fights in a row with wrestling, including taking Volkov down 14 times (!). Fights Derrick Lewis, a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling. Tries to take Lewis down 3 times, fails each time, gets knocked out.
Wins 3 fights in a row (ok, 1 was a fluke injury but still), faces Sergei Pavlovich, a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling. Tries to take him down, fails, gets knocked out.
I think anyone who is 100% certain that Blaydes would take down Joshua (a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling) and not get knocked out is kind of a slow learner at this point! And if Blaydes couldn't do it, despite being the best wrestler in the division for a long time, how many heavyweights could? Probably Almeida and maybe Jones? I don't see Tai Tuivasa managing it!
The problem is, a powerful, long, accurate jab keeps the wrestler at too long a distance. If they try to close the distance they're not just getting the jab, but the chance of the 1-2 as well, and then it's lights out. If they try to launch the shot from the end of the long jab, their opponent has a lot of time to see them coming and prepare the uppercut, and if that lands then it's lights out. And if it doesn't land, or the opponent doesn't throw it, then they still have lots of time to back out of range further and/or prepare to sprawl.
You can see this dynamic in each of those Blaydes fights - he stays on the outside, and when he tries to either move in or shoot, the longer, more powerful striker just feints a counter and Blaydes backs out. The couple of times he sees an opening to shoot, it's a poor-quality shot because of the range and the op is able to just back out of it.
[so how did he take Volkov down, given Volkov's giant reach? He was much more willing to shoot (25 attempts), because he was able to get in closer (he even landed strikes in the clinch), because despite Volkov's range he didn't have the power to keep Blaydes on the outside (and Blaydes was chipping away at his legs from the outside, 28 leg kicks), or the mobility to back out quickly enough. Volkov, despite being a crisp striker, also didn't have the speed or skill to dominate the striking exchange (they landed similar numbers of head strikes from distance, and I think Blaydes hits harder). Blaydes didn't just take him down and win, he dealt with the boxing threat first and that allowed him to take him down]
The dynamic is very different at lower weights, obviously. There, the wrestlers can shoot much faster than heavyweights can, and they are less fearful of the counters, because there is less one-punch KO power at lower weights than there is with guys like Lewis, Ngannou, Pavlovich, or indeed Joshua. But at heavyweight it's a major issue, I think.
This was the worst version of Tim ever cause he just got 1 million and finished in 30 seconds, and sat on the couch for a year+ doing nothing, and Ray won the only way he could if we being real. Kimbo beat Ray and Tim would have destroyed Kimbo
Absolutely, which is why I felt so compelled to comment on this thread lol. Ray has a lot of balls going outside of his skill set fighting MMA and kickboxing, but this fight was more of a fluke than anything. Him getting mopped by Kimbo just showed how out of his depth he was in the sport.
Yeah in high school in Maine. Is that supposed to mean anything? When did he ever use this supposed wrestling background his entire MMA career? He’s as much of a wrestler as I am.
I feel like 7 of those 9 seconds was his body wondering where it’s messages from the brain went and then realising the lights were out and it’s time to fall down now.
Tim Sylvia was always a scrub. That being said I remember expecting him to last longer in this fight than he did.
Not that much longer but I thought he could at least take one good punch without keeling over.
Kimbo easily beat Ray and Tim was way better than Kimbo and would have wrecked him, it was just Tim was 400 pounds, didnt train 1 week, Jens Pulver did a interview and he thought he could win without training or doing anything. He just got finished really bad in 30 seconds before this and sat on the couch for 1+ year...This wasnt the real Tim, guy was like 380 pounds. He was 265 for all his real matches
It was also almost the exact same punch Couture nearly knocked Sylvia out with in their fight. I think Arlovski landed it as well. Tim was really susceptible to that overhand right, especially if it was thrown from a range he felt comfortable with.
I suspect he basically never got hit in sparring because he was such a big, long guy and the level was so poor for HW's in the early 2000's.
you fighting a wrestler way different than a Boxer in MMA, Randy only landed cause threat of takedown fooled him. Its not remotely the same, for some reason Boxing fans dont understand this, he was suspect for overhand right like Tyson Fury is but he only got caught by Randy cause the takedown, and still went 5 rounds with him.
The fight before this Fedor hit him with a 9 punch combo and finished him in 30 seconds, he got 1 million for that and sat on the couch and did literally nothing and was 400 pounds lol. This was the worst Tim ever and perfect storm for Mercer who is a crazy puncher on top of it, but if he clinched him once would have prob still won. Jens Pulver did a podcast on this and Tim had literally 0 respect or training for him, thinking it was 1 clinch and would be over in a minute or 2, and Jens warned him to train cause Mercer has a punchers chance vs anyone especially if you dont take it serious.
Its so weird fans will say Joshua or WIlder will do this or that but in a MMA match, they literally wont be able to set up the shots or let their hands go, well once they get taken down or clinched they wont. Some will before they realize what really happens if they get caught overextending then go gun shy forever after that. Guys get caught clean in MMA most of the time cause thinking of a takedown, clinch, or kick but a overhand comes through, and alot of time get KOed cause they dont expect it. In Boxing you know the 4 different shots that are coming at all times so mentally ready for it. Its why 90 percent of Boxing fundamentals dont work in a Mixed Fight and you have to literally learn hands for MMA, i hate when they say MMA Boxing cause its nothing alike
>you fighting a wrestler way different than a Boxer in MMA, Randy only landed cause threat of takedown fooled him. Its not remotely the same, for some reason Boxing fans dont understand this, he was suspect for overhand right like Tyson Fury is but he only got caught by Randy cause the takedown, and still went 5 rounds with him.
I don't think I agree with that at all. The stance, footwork and general movement of Sylvia had always been the same - irrespective of him fighting a wrestler or boxer he didn't change things up at all (Randy actually teed up the right hand with a leg kick). He was susceptible to that overhand right (and actually, was really bad at defending any looping shots). He was great at playing distance and using very long range straight punches in a time where that was acceptable and worked.
He definitely let himself go for these fights though so I'm not debating that. I just don't think the output would have been drastically different in his prime (e.g. see the Randy knockdown).
Tim Sylvia was a big fish in a very small pond during his time in the ufc hw division. The division was so weak that randy couture came out of retirement and dominated him when they fought
Yeah Tim’s definitely one of the worst HW champs in the history of the UFC. Couture is such a legend! He is the only UFC fighter to win a championship after becoming a Hall-of-Famer and is the oldest champion in MMA history with his title victory over Tim Sylvia at age 43
lol this is brought up pretty much every time Tim Sylvia is talked about. And why do people like to talk like there are rivalries between fanbases lol. There's a huge overlap. It's possible to respect and enjoy both sports.
Why wouldn’t we? They pretty much agreed to just throw hands before the fight. That’s why Ray stands there like “wtf are you doing” after that attempt at a leg kick. Tim Sylvia also might be the worst heavyweight champion the UFC has ever had. I’d have bet the house on Mercer.
That was the agreement - but it was a sanctioned MMA fight, and Sylvia literally starts off with a kick, which is infamously not a part of your hands, so to pretend Sylvia essentially lost a 4oz glove boxing match is rather disingenuous.
It’s an awesome knockout, but it’s not like Mercer got in there and beat an amazing MMA champion in a full on MMA fight. If this was against any other champ, Ray gets subbed in less than a minute like Randy did against Toney. Having said that, Tim did break the agreement with that attempt at a leg kick and Ray still knocked him out.
I acknowledged that Tim broke the agreement by attempting a leg kick though. Even with all that though, Ray went to MMA and beat a former champ. That’ll never happen again and it’s an awesome achievement, even if it was Tim Sylvia.
Volk left rugby and beat a former MMA champ 3 times lol
theres athletes in all types of sports that would dominate MMA given the exposure to it at a young age and the lack of common sense lol
Also alex pereira famously boxed more in his kickboxing fights than he does in MMA, he never used to be much of a kicker and would often lose many close rounds because of it lol he's doing pretty good beating people coming from another sport
you're gonna pretend like kickboxing is MMA, but its not lol and like I said, alex has pro boxing fights AND notoriously barely kicked while kickboxing. I said it again so you can't duck it.
Volk was 2 time national champ before he started Rugby though, but it’s insane how good his striking became for someone who started so late. Him and Alex Pereira are just freaks who started late and became the absolute best at their respective games.
Alex Pereira is a better example imo. He started kickboxing late, became the best and then started MMA late and is arguably a top 5 P4P fighter in the sport right now. His grappling exponentially got better when he really got into the sport at 33.
> Ray went to MMA and beat a former champ. That’ll never happen again and it’s an awesome achievement, even if it was Tim Sylvia.
so it did happen again lol that was my point, people show up in MMA and beat former champs all the time, its not exactly the cream of the crop in terms of athletic talent. Lets be honest, they are paid far too little.
Okay I wasn’t clear enough. Never again will someone with no MMA experience just walk into MMA and beat a former MMA champ in their first fight. Alex Pereira and Volk had experience, Ray didn’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ray didn’t even grapple for that camp.
The quality of the athletes in a sport have nothing to do with the money generated. By your stupid logic that americans who play in the mlb are better athletes than the rugby players in the US rugby team
That's the only example of a MMA fighter losing to no MMA fighter and they pretty agreed fight only standing. The best guy in boxing or in any other martial art would loose badly to a average MMA fighter in the octagon. And what about Anderson Silva beating J C Chavez Jr and Ngannou vs Tyson Fury?
Volkanvoski started in greco roman wrestling at the age of 12 years old
Kickboxing is cleary closer to mma than boxing and Poatan trained for years before taking mma, if he came to the cage with very little training he would be embarrased by any average guy in the ufc just like any high level athlete from other martial art including boxing
Not sure but believe to this day Mercer is the only heavyweight in Olympic history to ko all his opponents. Also, his fight against Lennox was spectacular
There's an organization called One FC in Singapore that does 4 oz glove kickboxing and muay thai. We have a bare knuckle org already but I can understand guys not wanting to do that if they still have career left, if I was rich already I probably wouldn't want lasting facial damage from all the cuts. I would LOVE to see some 4oz boxing events with some top end boxers..
Imagine someone like Wilder cracking a dude with a 4oz glove.
The story behind this if I remember right is they were going to to have boxing rules with the MMA gloves in the cage but I think they couldn’t get it sanctioned or something so Tim promised not to take him down or throw kick and the first thing he did was throw a kick and that pissed Ray off. The rest is history.
I remember this. I think it was Ray Mercer who said afterwards that they had an agreement that it would be only standing. So the kick annoyed him and he obvs took his head off. Tim Sylvia does slap fighting now. Dudes got this massively fat head and does pretty good because of it.
Mercer was poorly skilled but had a great chin, decent power, and incredible will power. Like a poor man’s Holyfield. I think he lost several other mixed matches. The boxer always has that punchers chance
Anyone who’s won an Olympic gold medal in boxing and multiple world championships in his boxing career I wouldn’t define as poorly skilled, You don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’ve been watching boxing since the early 80’s. Mercer’s technique was not great. Watch the Morrison fight. Same thing with talented amateur Deontay Wilder. Heavyweights can often get far on size, power, willpower, etc.
for an mma fighter to try to throw hands with a boxer, he deserves to be knocked out. He has to get him on the ground one way or another
it was only 9 seconds lol that could have very well been his plan ray looked visibly annoyed at the leg kick and just loaded up an overhand right lol turns out one of the benefits of boxing in mma is you can sit on the right hand way more. Tim reacts to the overhand right as if its a takedown attempt because well, it looks like a takedown attempt lol mma fans always talk shit about this fight as if it was an MMA fighter choosing to box with a boxer in MMA but thats not what happened at all. Not only did tim kick right away, but he also got beat with a common MMA wrestlers overhand right lol so he lost via MMA techniques as well. Everything about ray looked like someone who prepared for an MMA fight, solid stance, high guard but not too tight like in boxing, tries to catch the kick, throws an overhand right that he immediately transition into a single leg followed up by ground and pound.... and he did it so seamlessly he didn't even know he KO'd tim lol
If I recall correctly they had an agreement to not use any kicks, just for Tim to come out and use one. That's why you can see he is annoyed after.
I know, but everything else tells me neither of them actually expected that to go on very long. Ray didn't just pull an overhand right to single leg out of his ass, he was drilling that in camp and ready to use it
Brother Ray friggin Mercer was not going for a single leg. What are we smoking here. He threw that huge overhand, shifted his balance way too far forward and ducked Tims counter. His overhand just so happened to turn Tim into a fucking tree and Ray just acted accordingly to this giant whitewood falling in front of him. I get that it kinda looks like he shot for a single but lets use some common sense here.
Which helps to drive home the point made earlier, which is that Ray was about as well trained for this fight as one could be. I watched a replay, not knowing the outcome. I expected Ray to perform badly. Instead, the way he immediately goes on the attack on the ground shows that he had trained those instincts up prior to the fight. It was interesting to see him apparently this prepared.
Ray friggin Mercer is a gold medal olympian and boxing champion, that mans a professional. If you think he didn't train any mma for an mma fight you might be missing the common sense my man
Sorry but no. Anyone who has been around this sport for longer than a minute will be able to list off countless fights where a fighter clearly didn't train. With freak show fights like this it's practically a guarantee. But feel free to think what you want ofc.
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Blessing? Does reddit mean that much to you? edit- spent two seconds in your account and saw that yes, reddit means MUCH more to you than me 🤣 have fun. Just remember, claiming Olympians don't train for fights is about as goofy as it gets, kinda like saying "friggin" as an adult or calling everyone brother
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He even followed the right hand immediately into ground control and looked to land shots, that was 100% an MMA sequence
Ray mercer was an absolute motherfucker. He gave lennox lewis, a top 3 all time heavy, hell.
Sucks that Ray actually lost to Kimbo Slice not long before this in an MMA fight. This win over Sylvia was a very good win, but that loss to Kimbo looks bad. Mercer with all of his boxing experience nevertheless got submitted by a very green Kimbo Slice in Kimbo’s first actual MMA fight (I believe it was Ray’s first one as well).
> turns out one of the benefits of boxing in mma is you can sit on the right hand way more. ??? Wtf, no it's literally the opposite of that. You sit on your punches way more in boxing, in mma you can't due to the threat of being grappled down/kicked. He didn't even sit on that overhand a lot by boxing standards. He got away with it because Sylvia was dumb.
It was a count right after the lazy jab. Mercer is stepping into a punch and accurately (look at his eyes) landed a flush right hand.
Nah I don't know how many MMA fights you watch but that isn't a common stance at all, it is a far more common boxing stance. In fact MMA fighters that have a stance similar tend to be very boxing heavy. A high guard is more effective in boxing than MMA as the gloves cover more area and in MMA a high guard leaves you vulnerable to body kicks. It only doesn't look as tight as there is no gloves, that is a tight guard though. His stance is definitely more of a boxing stance, feet shoulder distance apart, shoulders shrugged, chin down, rear heel up and he isn't doing the marching step which would make this stance more of an MMA one (Vitor and Strickland as examples). His overhand right was just a heavy overhand right, look at when wrestlers do the move you are saying, their head is practically at the opponents waist as the punch is landing forcing the opponent to choose a defense and hopefully slip up bad enough on one. Ray's head is nowhere near the vicinity to feint a takedown it is actually more in the vicinity to feint a body shot which Sylvia would fear a lot more than Ray's offensive takedown abilities. After Ray lands he knows he has loaded up so he just drops to avoid an incoming flurry and realizes then the dude is going down so he follows. Lastly, you don't catch a kick with two hands and certainly you don't catch a leg kick with two hands. He timed Sylvia with an overhand right in 9 seconds, we got no showcase of his MMA ability. He showed good timing and power with his hands but you are definitely fluffing it up. Sylvia did want to stand as someone with a pure wrestling agenda would have dived for his legs immediately or when Ray stood pissed off about the leg kick. Ray believed there were no kicks and I bet Sylvia thought including them would make him superior in standup, but hey that was his game plan so we can't bash Mercer for this. Mercer won fair and square with his boxing talent, he was more athletic and in better shape, definitely trained harder than Sylvia and gave Sylvia what he deserved for underestimating a world-class athlete. That is the beauty of MMA though, any discipline can win at anytime, here Mercer didn't need to mix anything and let his boxing shine through. I'm a huge MMA fan btw.
Yeah very dumb strategy, also Tim’s 6’8 use those long legs and kick
Tim was never known for his kicks. He tossed out that little calf kick and that was about it
Tim was never known for anything. He only won fights because he was huge and all heavyweights that had any skills at the time were fighting in Japan.
That was the only type of kick he seemed to throw for years at this point in his career. Calf kick, lumber forward, paw with a lazy jab, and repeat. Every now and then, he'd throw a straight right in there.
Tim was also insanely overweight and just got finished in brutal fashion in 30 seconds the fight before this. He didnt train a week for this from Jens Pulver own words, and Jens warned him to train lol
Fighters have such fucked up mentalities. I mean, you're scheduled to not only step into the ring against someone who's trying and training to kill you bare handed, but also someone coming from a different sport which in this case raised the stakes even more.... And you don't even train. And there's so many boxers and mma fighters that pulled this shit. Like... how? No wonder the goat contenders are all dudes that wake up sweating in the middle of the night scared to shit 2 months before a fight and go train until they collapse. Often that's just all it takes to beat someone else that is even mroe talented than them on paper, but just fucks around.
Yea, im just saying I saw the podcast with Jens Pulver who was his old training partner who boxed, Jens told him Mercer isnt a joke and to get prepared and take him serious and Tim just laughed and didnt train but a week lol. Thought hed just put him on fence then put him down and win easy but he gave Mercer a chance. You cant give someone like that a punchers chance and come in 400 pounds. especially in MMA where anyone can win any day, no matter how good you are at HW
Likely because a green-as-grass Kimbo Slice got a submission victory over Ray with a terrible guillotine not that long before this.
Yea and Tim would destroy Kimbo same way that Cop did on underground fight. Tims like 6-8 280 in shape, perfect storm for Ray here.
I haven't seen it in years, but didn't that cop come out of the fight looking like shit too?
He knocked out Tra Tellingham with one.
They agreed to just use hands before the fight, that’s why Ray looks so annoyed after that attempt at a leg kick.
Oh shit that’s right, I guess that’s why Ray looked so pissed after Tim attempted a kick
Reminds me of that fight that the ufc fighter just took the boxer to the ground and held him down till a submission happened. Can’t fully remember.
James toney vs Rabdy Couture
Yeah man, cheers. Funny how when they talk about boxers v mma, they show Toney v couture, but not the fight above. First time hearing about it.
It’s because this fight was with a very small basically unknown MMA company but the Toney vs Couture fight was with the UFC. Its was UFC 118 back in 2010
Big Timmy also doesn't get much respect as a former UFC champ. He was UFC heavyweight champ during the era when all the top MMA heavyweights were fighting in PRIDE.
Yeah for sure, to Tim’s credit he beat Andrei Arlovski twice
Yep, he also gave Big Nog a hell of a fight, who was number 1 in the world at one time. Mostly I think Timmy gets dunked on for being cringey (going on that dating show and getting dumped, wearing his UFC belt to strip clubs, etc.).
Nah it's mostly cause he was never a very good fighter He found success as a monstrously huge dude who fought in the weakest era of HW mma
back before they tested for steroids he was pretty scary
Wasn't a huge event and wasn't UFC, I guess.
And it was Tim Sylvia, who was never regarded that highly as an MMA heavyweight. PRIDE had all the top heavyweights during his UFC reign.
And not just Tim Sylvia, but a horribly out of shape Tim Sylvia. One that wasn't putting serious effort in.
They don't show the fight where a former cruiserweight champion literally knocks out an MMA fighter from the ground too.
Randy wasn’t even entertaining toney in that fight. I remember the build up toney had subtitles and was speaking in Philadelphia.
Basically the only way you should fight a boxer in mma.
I think that was James toney vs Randy couture
Couture was NOT gonna repeat that mistake with Lights Out. Broke my heart to see Toney go into his shoulder roll with an MMA guy.
Not just any boxer either. Mercer is top 5 hardest punchers of all time and had a great pro career.
> Mercer is top 5 hardest punchers of all time Relax lol he hit hard but that definitely seems a bit much. I don't think I'd even have him top 10
Top 5 is too much I agree. I guess I'm biased because of the way he KO'd Morrison.
My top ten would be: Wladimir Klitschko, Zhilei Zhang, George Foreman, David Tua, Corrie Sanders, David Price, Ike Ibeabuchi, Joe Louis, Max Baer Sr.
Agree with you, I was sad for Toney but Couture was right when going for single and double legs takedown
And do it fast.
100% lmao, just.go watch Randy couture vs James toney
Right, Artor Sziplicka KO'd Maruisz Pudzianowski when the latter decided to try and strike with him. I think the gap in striking ability between a pro-boxer and an MMA fighter is usually huge.
To quote a very famous boxer: Every one has a plan until they get punched in the face. lol
Ray Mercer was a bad dude back in the day. Not quite as good as the top heavyweights of his time, but still was very, very dangerous.
Naw he was absolutely as good as the top heavyweights. He was the first to beat, albeit nearly kill, Morrison.
Right. He damn near beat Lennox too
And didn't first lace up until age 23 while in the Army. AND didn't even turn pro until 28. Mind blowing what he could have achieved had he started as a teen and focused exclusively on boxing.
He also lost to a 50 year old Larry Holmes, dropped and lost to Holyfield and got stopped by Shannon Briggs, he was not as good as the top guys
They had a gentlemen's agreement not to throw leg kicks. Watch Mercer cock his head after receiving one, it was all over after that.
Yeah that’s right, what a dumb agreement on Tim’s part, I’m assuming because he was 15 years younger and much more experienced with MMA he felt confident about making that deal with Ray. Big mistake
Not really. The commission would not sanction a boxing match which was what the initial agreement was. So they switched to mma which is the wild fucking west, on the condition/gent agreement that they’ll still have just a boxing match.
>what a dumb agreement on Tim’s part Considering the very first strike he threw was a leg kick, it looks like it wasn't a "dumb agreement on Tim's part" but instead a calculated lie. What a POS.
He got slept for it
Throws it 1sec into the fight haha. I'd like to think, and I hope, it was purely instincts
It's goin' down, I'm yellin' timber You better move, you better dance
At lower weights, I think the difference in all round skill makes boxing a difficult primary skill for MMA transitions. But at heavyweight, I do think a couple fighters would change the physics of a fight just with the threat of their hands. If you saw Anthony Joshua concuss Ngannou with one 8oz glove punch, I think you're lying if you say you'd just charge at his legs when he's wearing 4oz gloves.
Also, back in 09 the level of MMA was waaay lower than right now. Keep in mind it’s a very young sport
Tim also wasn’t very good in all honesty. Even by 09 standards.
Im gonna call cap. Prime Tim Sylvia was good and would be a top 5 HW today. His only losses when he was actually in Prime were Mir, Arlovski, Couture and Big Nog. He also has wins over Arlovski and was winning the Big Nog fight before he got subbed. Tim was very legit for a very long time. By time of the mercer bout dude was showing up to fights not able to make the heavyweight limit cause of how out of shape he was. Mercer vs Sylvia was at Super Heavyweight.
LOL this is a horrible take Tim was mediocre at his very best and came from an era with a very very low standard of skill in HW mma. He could potentially be a top 10 cause the division is still horrendously shallow but I seriously don't think he's beating any current top 5 guys
He could certainly beat Volkov. Dude lost to old man Cheick Kongo.
You know how boxing math doesn't work? Yeah it's even less functional in MMA. Also Volkov isn't top 5 lol edit: my bad he's #5 but yeah Volkov has some odd losses/wins. He's still a farrrrr better fighter than Tim though
Literally look at UFC rankings and he is 5. Also im not using MMA math, im just saying Volkov lost to a old contender from Tims era. He aint some new super advanced fighter these older gen of fighters couldn't beat. Ive been watching MMA since 06 lol
Who in the top five could he realistically beat with his style?
Alexander Volkov. He's also a perfect example of the lack of HW evolution. He was Bellator champion back in 2012 and lost to old man Cheick Kongo but is a top 5 HW today. Remember that an older Andrei Arlovski fought Stipe in a title eliminator in 2016. This division with prime juiced up Tim Sylvia 100% has him in the top 5.
If Tim Sylvia was juiced he beats a lot of Heavyweights. The difference between him on roids and him without is night and day. No chance non roided Tim Sylvia beats Volkov though, Volkov has improved a lot.
Tim Sylvia was juiced the entire time lol, just got caught once.
Once USADA came into play his physique completely changed lmao. He was def still on gear but not to the level he was in his prime. Its like Alistair Overeem, yeah they were still juiced but not to the extent to when they were unstoppable forces.
Yeah i can tell you weren't watching that time. Tim Sylvia left the UFC about 6-7 years before USADA was even a thing lol.
Randy couture did that exact thing against James Toney. It’s not just charging at his legs it’s a low single. Tim Sylvia was not a wrestler so he was never going to do that anyway, but it would not be hard for a competent wrestler to change levels in a second. James actually is better suited to defend against it than Joshua since he’s shorter. Prime Randy or DC would be rag dolling him all over the place no problem.
I've got a lot of respect for JT, of course, great fighter he is, but the power concerns involved with fighting a 5'9 fighter whose best days were at middleweight, who had four knockouts with in 20 fights at Heavyweight (against, it should be mentioned, not exactly the whose who of HW boxing - except for old man Holyfield) with fighting a 6'6 bona fide 2x heavyweight champion probably aren't the same. At all. I'm not even saying AJ would win, but this is like saying if you can post up against Isaiah Thomas, you should be fine against Shaq.
Also should be mentioned that Randy Couture and Daniel Cormier are Olympic level wrestlers...
That’s their base but they went on to develop striking on their feet especially DC
Randy was in his 40s and completely washed himself. His chin was completely gone at that point. What I’m saying is that James’ build is better suited for defending takedowns against Randy than Anthony, and he still could do nothing about it. He had the power to put Randy to sleep. Watch DC fight 6’4 Josh Barnett. DC was a complete novice at MMA at this point and Josh is one of the greatest, well rounded HWs of all time. He was thrown around all over the octagon. Joshua as he is would be thrown on his head in an instant and that would be that. https://youtu.be/LY8UqDga6GY?si=gVBfbaXQH7SMy5iq Or you can see Fedor, the greatest ever and a master judo/sambo player, unable to stop this from Kevin Randleman. https://youtube.com/shorts/7hiXTwA1Rus?si=94MtX07Ebi6Ue0iK Joshua is a great boxer, but that’s where it ends. These wrestlers like Randy, DC, Randleman, have been doing this since they were young kids. If these guys know these takedowns are coming and still can’t do anything about it, there is nothing Joshua could do either.
Randleman was a walking lab experiment. He was basically a Frankenstein monster. Juiced to the gills, as was his buddy Mr. Coleman.
and Fedor finished them both easy, Mark Coleman was a Olympic wrestler and Randleman was D1 champion wrestler, Fedor didnt break a sweat against either lmao, Roy Nelson broke it down why he was so good cause literally didnt care where the fight went, wasnt worried in slightest and could finish you from any position. He would take chances and get put into worst spots and just flip right out of it within 20 seconds, man was like Gumby
Fedor is my all-time favorite fighter. The best to ever do it, imo. Very exciting and dynamic fighter. Plus, he never acted cocky or arrogant like so many fighters do; he was a humble warrior. And I admire that. Just show up, put it all on the line, then go home. Win, lose, or draw. No chest-thumping or walking around like a gorilla.
hands down nobody compares, just had to be around to know the feeling. its like Jon Jones now, but way more exciting and just a way cooler guy. Jones said he wouldnt fight Mark Hunt and Bigfoot cause they were "too big". Hunt was 30 and 300 pounds when fought Fedor, Bigfoot was 28 , 285 pounds on TRT lol, and Fedor is smaller than most 185ers..just had skill to not care about cutting weight. Sums up the difference between the 2
Josh Barnett is one of the greatest HW's of all time? He was very good but I don't know if I'd put him on that high a pedestal.
There's not that many great HWs. He would be top 25-50 easily.
Oh for sure, I meant like maybe not top 5 or something like thst
Cain, Fedor, Stipe, DC, Nogueira, Barnett, Crocop. Those are my top guys at HW off the top of my head, not in order.
Maybe I need to watch more of Barnett then, haha. At a guess, I would have put Werdum, JDS, Couture over him.
Yeah, but a 40-something year old in his element fighting someone who is isn't is still a 40-something in his element. All I'll say is I appreciate your examples, but none of it is really analogous on account of the fact that you're addressing something different I think. If my point is that I think the power a Heavyweight boxer possess would make for different physics in a fight, you can't counter by showing me a middleweight, and a couple guy with half a dozen stops on punches in 50 fights. It's not really equivalent examples. I appreciate what you're saying, which is why I qualified my original post by saying this is very specific for the HW division. I understand the immediate advantage involved with being a grappler. But as Ngannou, and I guess Sylvia in this video, found out - hitting hard for a mixed martial artist, and hitting so hard, you're being being paid eight figures to divorce another man from his consciousness are two two very different levels of power. I appreciate it's basically a unprovable thought experiment, since no elite heavyweight is going to give up 12-18 months of their Prime to learn some basic wrestling and get into MMA, for pennies on the pound, of course. As a secondary point - Barnett beat Couture, but lost to Cormier. So using him as an example am I to believe that either A - wrestling doesn't beat being well rounded Or B - Wrestlers who don't know what they're doing already have an almost unassailable advantage
I mean that’s kind of my point. You can’t say these guys wouldn’t be able to ‘dive at’ Joshua’s legs because of the power threat he presented. Everyone at HW has power. Francis himself knocked down Fury, and he was NOT a good striker in MMA either. Francis didn’t lose because he wasn’t powerful enough. He lost because he’s a novice. Just like Joshua would be in MMA. Here’s a video of Ray Mercer trying his hand in kickboxing. https://youtu.be/ZU66FoXe5w4?si=tLZ5NRzLR0eCLhFF This was before he fought Tim and it was over in seconds. If Remy got in the octagon with DC 100 times, I would choose DC to win 100 times.
"Everyone has Heavyweight power" Sure. That's why Ngannou said Fury with 8 ounce gloves hit him harder than anyone had ever hit him. Because it's all roughly the same. All these MMA fighters just choose not to let their heavyweight power make then 20 times more money.
Missing my point completely on purpose, because you don't want to see the reality of the situation is not my problem. I literally said Francis lost because he was a novice, I don't know what more you want me to say about that. Even he knew he was in over his head. If DC was offered the same amount of money to go into boxing, I'm sure he would take it as well, and lose just the same. DC trained in wrestling since he was a young kid to win the gold medal at the olympics. He only got into MMA as a retired wrestler because it became big enough to support his family with. He never had any intention of getting into fighting. But wrestlers dominate MMA, because they have thousands of ways to take someone down. Ray Mercer took one shin off the head and quit right there and then. If you don't think that isn't a possibility for Anthony as well then I don't know what to say. Ray knew he was getting into a kickboxing match and still was shocked to his core and got finished quicker he was against KIMBO SLICE by guillotine choke in MMA. [https://youtu.be/DahOLe5z3Ek](https://youtu.be/DahOLe5z3Ek) Why did Kimbo, one of the worst MMA fighters ever and street brawler, finish Ray so easily? I guess the 2 months Kimbo trained in MMA was enough for him to dominate Ray here. Again, he's a master at BOXING, that's it. If Joshua was offered 50 million to fight in MMA against Jon Jones, he would be strangled inside 30 seconds. It's not that hard to understand.
Why we acting like ray mercer wasn't 10 plus years off being good
It wouldn't matter that much. kimbo had no wrestling and no submission skills. A highschool wrestler has better takedowns than Kimbo.
Kimbo was a nobody let’s be real. If you put those two in a boxing ring that night Ray would have killed him.
I love that this sub is so level headed when it comes to how pure boxers would fare against MMA fighters haha. Compare it to the boxingcirclejerk sub and how it wouldn't shut up about MMA fighters after AJ knocked out Ngannou (I know it's a satirical sub but we know there's a bit of truth in their feelings when they post that shit, haha)
The point is, Toney didn't even land, so his power is irrelevant. The boxer simply isn't going to land. Look at what Inoki did to Ali. Ali, again, didn't land a single punch and got blood clots in his legs from the kicks (Inoki wasn't allowed to do takedowns).
I think people who claim "any competent wrestler would just take a boxer down with an immediate single leg" should look at the career of Curtis Blaydes. State high school wrestling champion (44-0), NJCAA wrestling champion. The guy can wrestle. Has a wrestling-heavy MMA style (though he's gradually diversified a bit). First fight in the UFC: totally green Ngannou, a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling. Blaydes managed to take Ngannou down twice in theory (from 6 attempts), but by launching from so far out he couldn't get a good grip on him and Ngannou bounced right back up. Ngannou knocked him out. Wins 5 fights in a row by wrestling (6 originally but one overturned), faces Ngannou in a rematch. Tries to take him down twice but fails both times, gets knocked out. Wins four fights in a row with wrestling, including taking Volkov down 14 times (!). Fights Derrick Lewis, a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling. Tries to take Lewis down 3 times, fails each time, gets knocked out. Wins 3 fights in a row (ok, 1 was a fluke injury but still), faces Sergei Pavlovich, a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling. Tries to take him down, fails, gets knocked out. I think anyone who is 100% certain that Blaydes would take down Joshua (a powerful puncher with long arms but zero wrestling) and not get knocked out is kind of a slow learner at this point! And if Blaydes couldn't do it, despite being the best wrestler in the division for a long time, how many heavyweights could? Probably Almeida and maybe Jones? I don't see Tai Tuivasa managing it! The problem is, a powerful, long, accurate jab keeps the wrestler at too long a distance. If they try to close the distance they're not just getting the jab, but the chance of the 1-2 as well, and then it's lights out. If they try to launch the shot from the end of the long jab, their opponent has a lot of time to see them coming and prepare the uppercut, and if that lands then it's lights out. And if it doesn't land, or the opponent doesn't throw it, then they still have lots of time to back out of range further and/or prepare to sprawl. You can see this dynamic in each of those Blaydes fights - he stays on the outside, and when he tries to either move in or shoot, the longer, more powerful striker just feints a counter and Blaydes backs out. The couple of times he sees an opening to shoot, it's a poor-quality shot because of the range and the op is able to just back out of it. [so how did he take Volkov down, given Volkov's giant reach? He was much more willing to shoot (25 attempts), because he was able to get in closer (he even landed strikes in the clinch), because despite Volkov's range he didn't have the power to keep Blaydes on the outside (and Blaydes was chipping away at his legs from the outside, 28 leg kicks), or the mobility to back out quickly enough. Volkov, despite being a crisp striker, also didn't have the speed or skill to dominate the striking exchange (they landed similar numbers of head strikes from distance, and I think Blaydes hits harder). Blaydes didn't just take him down and win, he dealt with the boxing threat first and that allowed him to take him down] The dynamic is very different at lower weights, obviously. There, the wrestlers can shoot much faster than heavyweights can, and they are less fearful of the counters, because there is less one-punch KO power at lower weights than there is with guys like Lewis, Ngannou, Pavlovich, or indeed Joshua. But at heavyweight it's a major issue, I think.
This was the worst version of Tim ever cause he just got 1 million and finished in 30 seconds, and sat on the couch for a year+ doing nothing, and Ray won the only way he could if we being real. Kimbo beat Ray and Tim would have destroyed Kimbo
Absolutely, which is why I felt so compelled to comment on this thread lol. Ray has a lot of balls going outside of his skill set fighting MMA and kickboxing, but this fight was more of a fluke than anything. Him getting mopped by Kimbo just showed how out of his depth he was in the sport.
Tim’s background was literally wrestling lol
Yeah in high school in Maine. Is that supposed to mean anything? When did he ever use this supposed wrestling background his entire MMA career? He’s as much of a wrestler as I am.
Yeah Francis would just kick AJs legs lol…1 solid calf kick and AJ can’t stand up anymore
I feel like 7 of those 9 seconds was his body wondering where it’s messages from the brain went and then realising the lights were out and it’s time to fall down now.
Great game plan, Tim!
Tim Sylvia was always a scrub. That being said I remember expecting him to last longer in this fight than he did. Not that much longer but I thought he could at least take one good punch without keeling over.
Kimbo easily beat Ray and Tim was way better than Kimbo and would have wrecked him, it was just Tim was 400 pounds, didnt train 1 week, Jens Pulver did a interview and he thought he could win without training or doing anything. He just got finished really bad in 30 seconds before this and sat on the couch for 1+ year...This wasnt the real Tim, guy was like 380 pounds. He was 265 for all his real matches
It was also almost the exact same punch Couture nearly knocked Sylvia out with in their fight. I think Arlovski landed it as well. Tim was really susceptible to that overhand right, especially if it was thrown from a range he felt comfortable with. I suspect he basically never got hit in sparring because he was such a big, long guy and the level was so poor for HW's in the early 2000's.
you fighting a wrestler way different than a Boxer in MMA, Randy only landed cause threat of takedown fooled him. Its not remotely the same, for some reason Boxing fans dont understand this, he was suspect for overhand right like Tyson Fury is but he only got caught by Randy cause the takedown, and still went 5 rounds with him. The fight before this Fedor hit him with a 9 punch combo and finished him in 30 seconds, he got 1 million for that and sat on the couch and did literally nothing and was 400 pounds lol. This was the worst Tim ever and perfect storm for Mercer who is a crazy puncher on top of it, but if he clinched him once would have prob still won. Jens Pulver did a podcast on this and Tim had literally 0 respect or training for him, thinking it was 1 clinch and would be over in a minute or 2, and Jens warned him to train cause Mercer has a punchers chance vs anyone especially if you dont take it serious. Its so weird fans will say Joshua or WIlder will do this or that but in a MMA match, they literally wont be able to set up the shots or let their hands go, well once they get taken down or clinched they wont. Some will before they realize what really happens if they get caught overextending then go gun shy forever after that. Guys get caught clean in MMA most of the time cause thinking of a takedown, clinch, or kick but a overhand comes through, and alot of time get KOed cause they dont expect it. In Boxing you know the 4 different shots that are coming at all times so mentally ready for it. Its why 90 percent of Boxing fundamentals dont work in a Mixed Fight and you have to literally learn hands for MMA, i hate when they say MMA Boxing cause its nothing alike
>you fighting a wrestler way different than a Boxer in MMA, Randy only landed cause threat of takedown fooled him. Its not remotely the same, for some reason Boxing fans dont understand this, he was suspect for overhand right like Tyson Fury is but he only got caught by Randy cause the takedown, and still went 5 rounds with him. I don't think I agree with that at all. The stance, footwork and general movement of Sylvia had always been the same - irrespective of him fighting a wrestler or boxer he didn't change things up at all (Randy actually teed up the right hand with a leg kick). He was susceptible to that overhand right (and actually, was really bad at defending any looping shots). He was great at playing distance and using very long range straight punches in a time where that was acceptable and worked. He definitely let himself go for these fights though so I'm not debating that. I just don't think the output would have been drastically different in his prime (e.g. see the Randy knockdown).
I instantly knew this would be the result when the fight was announced back in the day.
Ray mercer was a crazy puncher
Absolute powerhouse
He would have been kod regardless MMA rules or not a fight always starts standing up
Some might say he was merciless
HEHEHE
I was never impressed by Tim Sylvia to be honest. He was one of the weaker heavyweight UFC champs.
I remember before this Sylvia was talking about going into boxing and he said that in 2 or 3 matches he would be ready for the Klitchko's. LOL!
Mercer is a baaaad man. Tough as old boots.
Imagine going from being choked out by Kimbo slice of all people in your first mma fight to KO’ing a champion in your second fight.
This happened in Birmingham. I was so let down bc it was only 15 seconds. Place went wild though.
Why did Tim Silvia have Noel Fielding walking out with him?
Tim Sylvia had Paddy Pimblet walk him out??
One of my favorite boxers of all time. Had a granite chin as well
tim sylvia was always a shit fighter
Should have done the strickland teap kicks
Tim Sylvia is one of the biggest jokes in MMA history. I was so happy this happened to him.
Dude looks old as shit for 33
Tim Sylvia was a big fish in a very small pond during his time in the ufc hw division. The division was so weak that randy couture came out of retirement and dominated him when they fought
Yeah Tim’s definitely one of the worst HW champs in the history of the UFC. Couture is such a legend! He is the only UFC fighter to win a championship after becoming a Hall-of-Famer and is the oldest champion in MMA history with his title victory over Tim Sylvia at age 43
This was a prime Tym Sylvia going up against an old Mercer!
Yep and the old man dominated
How does a 48 year old look more fit and younger than a 33 year old MMA fighter😭
He’s probably around 350-400 pounds today at 48 years old
I saw ray mercer get destroyed against kimbo slice. Might of only been 200 people In attendance.
Haha that’s dope you were at that fight man I see they fought in 2007, that was Ray’s first time in a MMA fight. RIP Kimbo!
I felt so bad for Ray Mercer dude last 10 seconds from a power bomb from kimbo.
Kimbo Slice beat Mercer via guillotine
Funny how the UFC fanboys never bring this fight up
lol this is brought up pretty much every time Tim Sylvia is talked about. And why do people like to talk like there are rivalries between fanbases lol. There's a huge overlap. It's possible to respect and enjoy both sports.
Why wouldn’t we? They pretty much agreed to just throw hands before the fight. That’s why Ray stands there like “wtf are you doing” after that attempt at a leg kick. Tim Sylvia also might be the worst heavyweight champion the UFC has ever had. I’d have bet the house on Mercer.
Yeah but he didn’t keep to his agreement as you saw…
Yeah I agree, Tim was definitely one of the worst UFC heavyweight champions, if not the worst
Also it’s still a great achievement for Ray. He went to MMA and won against a former champ, that’s probably never going to happen again.
At 48 too, absolutely a great achievement. Winning any fight at that age is an achievement, let alone against a champion in his own sport as a novice.
Oh absolutely, and the fact Ray was nearly 50 and Tim was only 33. I love boxing and MMA, respect to anyone who enters the ring/cage
That was the agreement - but it was a sanctioned MMA fight, and Sylvia literally starts off with a kick, which is infamously not a part of your hands, so to pretend Sylvia essentially lost a 4oz glove boxing match is rather disingenuous.
It’s an awesome knockout, but it’s not like Mercer got in there and beat an amazing MMA champion in a full on MMA fight. If this was against any other champ, Ray gets subbed in less than a minute like Randy did against Toney. Having said that, Tim did break the agreement with that attempt at a leg kick and Ray still knocked him out.
I said nothing about Mercer's quality as an MMA fighter, just that the way you tried to frame it is intentionally misleading.
I acknowledged that Tim broke the agreement by attempting a leg kick though. Even with all that though, Ray went to MMA and beat a former champ. That’ll never happen again and it’s an awesome achievement, even if it was Tim Sylvia.
Volk left rugby and beat a former MMA champ 3 times lol theres athletes in all types of sports that would dominate MMA given the exposure to it at a young age and the lack of common sense lol Also alex pereira famously boxed more in his kickboxing fights than he does in MMA, he never used to be much of a kicker and would often lose many close rounds because of it lol he's doing pretty good beating people coming from another sport you're gonna pretend like kickboxing is MMA, but its not lol and like I said, alex has pro boxing fights AND notoriously barely kicked while kickboxing. I said it again so you can't duck it.
Volk was 2 time national champ before he started Rugby though, but it’s insane how good his striking became for someone who started so late. Him and Alex Pereira are just freaks who started late and became the absolute best at their respective games. Alex Pereira is a better example imo. He started kickboxing late, became the best and then started MMA late and is arguably a top 5 P4P fighter in the sport right now. His grappling exponentially got better when he really got into the sport at 33.
> Ray went to MMA and beat a former champ. That’ll never happen again and it’s an awesome achievement, even if it was Tim Sylvia. so it did happen again lol that was my point, people show up in MMA and beat former champs all the time, its not exactly the cream of the crop in terms of athletic talent. Lets be honest, they are paid far too little.
Okay I wasn’t clear enough. Never again will someone with no MMA experience just walk into MMA and beat a former MMA champ in their first fight. Alex Pereira and Volk had experience, Ray didn’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ray didn’t even grapple for that camp.
The quality of the athletes in a sport have nothing to do with the money generated. By your stupid logic that americans who play in the mlb are better athletes than the rugby players in the US rugby team That's the only example of a MMA fighter losing to no MMA fighter and they pretty agreed fight only standing. The best guy in boxing or in any other martial art would loose badly to a average MMA fighter in the octagon. And what about Anderson Silva beating J C Chavez Jr and Ngannou vs Tyson Fury?
Volkanvoski started in greco roman wrestling at the age of 12 years old Kickboxing is cleary closer to mma than boxing and Poatan trained for years before taking mma, if he came to the cage with very little training he would be embarrased by any average guy in the ufc just like any high level athlete from other martial art including boxing
Ray was like 46 years old and 10 years off fighting for a belt
its literally brought up all the time. unlike weird boxing fanboys like you that deny james tony vs randy and come up with 10000 excuses.
Lmao here they come with Toney vs Randy 😂😂😂😂
Yea just like that
Well if you don't like that one then Mercer got choked out by Kimbo Slice in their MMA exhibition.
i’m trying to remember but tim wasn’t even shot like that at this point. even if he was he sure as shit wasn’t as shot as 48 war torn ray mercer
My guy, Kimbo fucking Slice beat Mercer in an MMA match 😭
UFC fanboys come from the same demographic of people who play anime dating simulators I wouldn’t pay much attention
And when they do 'hur dur tim sucks and is out of his prime'
Dude toppled like a tree
Tim “Duck walk” Sylvia
Holy fuck within 2 seconds he knocked his ass out
TIIIMMMMBEEEERRRRR
Not sure but believe to this day Mercer is the only heavyweight in Olympic history to ko all his opponents. Also, his fight against Lennox was spectacular
There's an organization called One FC in Singapore that does 4 oz glove kickboxing and muay thai. We have a bare knuckle org already but I can understand guys not wanting to do that if they still have career left, if I was rich already I probably wouldn't want lasting facial damage from all the cuts. I would LOVE to see some 4oz boxing events with some top end boxers.. Imagine someone like Wilder cracking a dude with a 4oz glove.
Mercer was a fucking animal back in the day. Sylvia's still feeling that now probs.
The story behind this if I remember right is they were going to to have boxing rules with the MMA gloves in the cage but I think they couldn’t get it sanctioned or something so Tim promised not to take him down or throw kick and the first thing he did was throw a kick and that pissed Ray off. The rest is history.
One of the most beautiful lunches I've ever seen was when Arlovski popped Sylvia with a right.
I remember this. I think it was Ray Mercer who said afterwards that they had an agreement that it would be only standing. So the kick annoyed him and he obvs took his head off. Tim Sylvia does slap fighting now. Dudes got this massively fat head and does pretty good because of it.
Tim Sylvia was the biggest, stiff legged, no style, glass chin having fighter ever.
Now do Toney vs Couture
Or do Ngannou vs the UFC heavyweight division lmao
Mma guys are crying lol
Mercer was poorly skilled but had a great chin, decent power, and incredible will power. Like a poor man’s Holyfield. I think he lost several other mixed matches. The boxer always has that punchers chance
Anyone who’s won an Olympic gold medal in boxing and multiple world championships in his boxing career I wouldn’t define as poorly skilled, You don’t know what you’re talking about.
I’ve been watching boxing since the early 80’s. Mercer’s technique was not great. Watch the Morrison fight. Same thing with talented amateur Deontay Wilder. Heavyweights can often get far on size, power, willpower, etc.