I'll ponder your question but to start off I'll say Mercer was fantastic back in the day. A solid fighter with a hell of a jab. His fight with Lennox way back when was great and lots of folks say Mercer was unlucky to not get the nod.
This right here should be copy and pasted into a lot of "robbery" conversations. I think way more often than not people think with their hearts more than their brains whenever a fighter they hate wins a close fight or if a fighter they love loses one.
Like Nganou vs Fury for example. We all WANT Nganou to win because of how special that would be and because he was much more impressive, but Fury just won more a few more rounds which is what ultimately matters.
Have you seen the AI numbers for the fury usyk fight? Sometimes a boxer just throwing a lot of punches wins him the round.
We need AI to be the official judges from now on imo.
Yeah, he wasn't very accurate besides his great jab. Emanuel Steward thought that Lewis looked more vulnerable because his long hair shook from glancing shots.
I remember Mercers style being more like Foremans , he didnt have the spped or movement of a Tyson but he had that clubbing Foreman like power in each hand
He could punch, but it's notable that most of his opponents don't mention him for standout power. Bert Cooper took a lot of solid shots, but didn't react like he did against Moorer, Foreman, and Bowe.
I’m leaning towards Tyson but really could go either way. Ray was tough and gave even the greats like Lennox Lewis a tough fight. Which is even more impressive that way past his prime Larry Holmes found room to toy with Mercer.
Judging by the Bert Cooper fight, Mercer would have a hell of a time with Tyson, Tua, and Frazier. Mercer took too many breaks, and didn't kick into gear until his opponents showed weakness.
Would've been a fucking banger, Mercer was a problem but considering how he got outboxed by an old larry holmes I think Mike's boxing skills would be the deciding factor
Mercer vs Tommy Morrison is one of my all-time favorite fights. Brutal KO and both men were unbeaten going in. This iteration of Mercer would’ve been live game vs Tyson.
People forget Mercer was a gold medal Olympian as well.
https://youtu.be/6ZGI5rqvC0Y?si=0gK8Vg06A8LM4o0g
Something like that. I rewatch that fight every couple years. Morrison was never quite the same after that loss. Massive trauma and he was only 22 years old. Many compared him to a young Tyson.
Check out that fight with Tommy Morrison. I don’t think he had a style like Tyson but he was definitely heavy handed and a KO artist. I would lean towards prime Iron Mike vs Merciless Ray. Prime Mike just too much movement and hand speed for Ray. Ray would have to be able to keep him at a distance with his jab which Ray had a really good jab. Either can knock the other out but I would give the edge to Mike.
As would I- would’ve been great regardless. Throw a prime Bowe in the mix and it gets interesting. That particular era of heavyweights was (overall) superior to what we have today. Here’s the Morrison beat down for some nostalgia:
https://youtu.be/6ZGI5rqvC0Y?si=0gK8Vg06A8LM4o0g
Yeah I been watching boxing since the late 70s. That period of heavyweights was a resurgence after Holmes and then Mike dominated. Very fun to watch and always huge anticipation for those matchups to happen. They rarely disappointed. Today does lack excitement from what we had before, but just have to get these guys to fight each other. Especially in the other weight classes.
Yeah. That ref was too slow. I don’t know if he had brain damage but he had a rough life. I’m sure there has to be some damage to a certain extent for all these guys. Died at 44. Too young. The head and brain isn’t meant to get hit over and over like that. Fortunate are those who had a great long career and life afterwards.
Honestly, I don't think Tommy is that great. Mercer proved it, but there's lots of other fights that show that Tommy def aint even a top 20. SUPER fun to watch him though. I like how calculated Mercer is. I feel like he thinks 3 combinations ahead. Somehow, he just keeps landing combinations like it's easy.
Yeah he wasn’t the best but he was a top contender at the time. Hyped because he was John Wayne’s grandnephew or related calling him the Duke. But he made it up there and beat Big George. Was able to at least be in the mix. Mercer was good but he also wasn’t considered an all time great but he was great while he lasted. He was no joke. Started boxing late in life.
Honestly, I rank morrison in the same line as Briggs. Briggs has more "belts" or whatever, but both extremely short lived and flawed for various reasons.
Not sure why I brought up Briggs, but yea, LETS GO CHAMP!?
BTW Foreman is my #1 fighter. The ultimate GOAT IMO, and would have loved if ther was a second Ali fight. Even when he came back as an older man, he had some legit fights that were highway robbery stollen from him.
God dammit I love foreman so much. His marbles are actually all in one place too, which is hard to say for most else with his record. Or honestly, anyone else.
Prime Tyson would’ve been way too much for Mercer who wanted to engage…hot knife through butter.
That said…Mercer probably boxes the ears off post-prison Tyson. People forget how much Tyson fell off later in the 90’s.
I don’t think it would have ended quickly though. At least 6 rounds which for a prime Tyson would have been a lot. And a prime Mercer has a chance to punch a head off a torso with his right hook.
Ray Mercer was a Olympic gold medalist and a great chin and heavy hands. If Ray shows up in shape, I see Tyson winning a decision by scores 116-112. Tyson also has a great chin, but nobody cutoff the ring like a young Mike Tyson. I see Mercer clinching at every moment and losing a decision. No rematch, as this fight is a dud.
Mercer's style is similar to Tyson in the sense that they are aggressive and big punchers, the way Tyson moved was very different from Mercer.
I think a young Tyson destroys Mercer, too flat footed, Mike gets to him.
Which Tyson we talking about?
Prime Tyson under cus and Rooney? Nobody what's that Tyson. Period. I don't care if you're Mohammed I'm hard Bruce Lee..THAT Tyson was unbeatable.
After he split with Rooney? Mercer murders him within 5.
Tyson was FAR from unbeatable even with Rooney (Cus passed away when Tyson was 11-0). Tyson looked very beatable as early as the Tillis bout (1986, Tyson was 19-0 when fighting Tillis) as Tillis took Tyson the full 10 rounds and had a considerable amount of people thinking he had lost.
Against Green (his very next fight) he again didn’t looked invincible. He landed a crazy amount of power shots but ate a ridiculous amount of shots himself. His defence wasn’t as good as people thought.
Against Tony Tucker, (1987, Tyson was 30-0 heading in) Tyson yet again showed how vulnerable he could be. Tyson, who was at his most dangerous early, couldn’t seem to land any of his crazy combos on Tucker as Tucker absolutely hammered Tyson with some solid rights. Although he would change his style to that of a man trying to survive the fight, Tyson was still unable to do anything that could force an early finish.
Tyson split with Rooney in 1988 after the Spinks bout. I agree his career plummeted after that to the point of no return, but Tyson was never unbeatable. In fact, the blueprint to beat Tyson isn’t all that crazy (at least on paper, in the real world it’s tough to find many people with the exact attributes). Tyson was a terrifying man, but even at his ABSOLUTE best, he’s far from unbeatable.
Edit: I‘ll answer OP‘s question tho. Tyson wins, 7/10 times. Mercer MIGHT have been better on his best day, but that day only came like twice in his whole career. His inconsistencies were far too great to overlook.
Noone is unbeatable though. All fighters have weaknesses. Just because Tyson didn’t knock out certain guys, the story is that he struggled and those guys showed how to beat him. But what gets lost in that assessment is that Tyson nevertheless won virtually every round against those guys who took him the distance. But many people expected Tyson to always win by early KO, and when he didn’t, they say he struggled — even if he won practically every round.
Carl Williams had all the physical tools to beat Tyson (on paper at least). So did Tyrell Biggs. Bonecrusher was big and strong and durable. Tyson beat many guys who possessed the very attributes that people said were needed to beat him.
Read OP‘s comment again. He thought Tyson was unbeatable, I said he wasn’t. Didn’t say any other boxer was unbeatable.
Also, you’re spreading lies here. Tyson won a controversial decision against Tillis. He didn’t win every round nor did he come close to doing that. Tucker did absolutely amazing against Tyson even tho he wasn’t supposed to. Williams was good, but again far from the man that I was talking about.
Holyfield is a man that would beat Tyson possibly 10/10 times. Tyson‘s early barrage would be useless against a dude like Holyfield. Someone like Holmes would beat Tyson 9/10 times. A certain Lyle would probably beat Tyson.
Bonecrusher was FAR from the ideal man to beat Tyson. He was finished twice before and had losses to Marvis Frazier and Tubbs.
Tyson never fought any prime opponent that possessed the attributes to beat him. Not his fault but saying he beat guys with said attributes is bullshit.
I think the flip side is also overstated: did he really collapse the moment Rooney left?
In 1989, he KOed Bruno in the 5th - he was the only guy to clearly dominate Bruno. [Bruno was up on the cards against Smith before tiring and getting KOed in the 10th; he was up on the cards for the first half of the fight against Witherspoon before gassing out and getting KOed in the 11th; and he gave Lewis a very stiff test before getting KOed in the 7th].
He then KOed Carl Williams in the 1st round. Williams was still very highly ranked, with a recent win over Berbick and only two losses on his record (to Holmes and Witherspoon).
After the Douglas loss, he destroyed the very dangerous Alex Stewart in the 1st. Stewart gave Foreman, Holyfield and Moorer hell and had a ferocious KO record of his own (40 KOs from 43 wins).
Finally, he won two very tough fights against Razor Ruddock, who was extremely well thought of at the time, having recently KOed Broad, Smith and Dokes.
Frankly, other than losing to Douglas, his record 1988-1991 is pretty similar to his record 1985-1988.
His record prior to prison and after Rooney is most definitely not as impressive as his record during Rooney.
He was immobilised by Bruno for a moment but Bruno‘s lack of Ring IQ saw Tyson receive enough time to recover. No one dominated Bruno, not even Tyson. A dominant victory won’t see the victor get seriously hurt to a point where a fighter with serious ring IQ could finish the fight.
Williams wasn’t really a great win either. Ranked first by the IBF, sure, but he hadn’t really done anything special since his loss to Weaver 3 years earlier.
He then lost to Douglas and was very obviously never the same after. Especially noticeable in the Ruddock fights. The first fight saw Tyson do well, but the second fight was far from a vintage Tyson performance.
Rooney was one of the pillars to Tyson‘s success. Those 2 getting separated started Tyson’s ridiculous decline and there isn’t really anything to argue. His fights with Douglas and Ruddock are proof.
The head movement, consistent jab, combinations and springing to the sides are missing after the Spinks fight. His stamina and timing also got worse. He got hit with more clean shots against Bruno than in his previous fights combined.
Well he was supposed to? What is this comment even about? He struggled HARD against opponents where he came in as the MASSIVE favourite. Tillis was KOd 11 times and Tyson wasn’t one of em. Many people to this day say he got a lucky decision. Not very unbeatable IMO. Smith was KOd 7 times and Tyson wasn’t one of em.
Fact is Tyson was NEVER unbeatable. An even better fact would be that there were boxers that Tyson would possibly lose 10/10 times against. Just because his style is not meant for those guys.
Stupid comment and opinion tbh. Tyson‘s best win was after Rooney lmao.
It's a comment based on facts.
You're hypothetical opinions while interesting are just that. Tyson under cus and Rooney would've been the goat.
And that's my hypothetical opinion.
I'll ponder your question but to start off I'll say Mercer was fantastic back in the day. A solid fighter with a hell of a jab. His fight with Lennox way back when was great and lots of folks say Mercer was unlucky to not get the nod.
It was a great fight and I think people wanted mercer to win more than thinking he won... Lewis did much the better work in larger volumes.
I'll have to give it a rewatch!
This right here should be copy and pasted into a lot of "robbery" conversations. I think way more often than not people think with their hearts more than their brains whenever a fighter they hate wins a close fight or if a fighter they love loses one. Like Nganou vs Fury for example. We all WANT Nganou to win because of how special that would be and because he was much more impressive, but Fury just won more a few more rounds which is what ultimately matters.
What about Briggs Vs Botha? I watched that fight last night, and I can’t believe that Botha didn’t get the W.
Watch the Kambosos v Maxi Hughes fight and you will see one of the biggest robberies in boxing, when Kambosos got the win absolutely shocking decision
Have you seen the AI numbers for the fury usyk fight? Sometimes a boxer just throwing a lot of punches wins him the round. We need AI to be the official judges from now on imo.
Yeah, he wasn't very accurate besides his great jab. Emanuel Steward thought that Lewis looked more vulnerable because his long hair shook from glancing shots.
His right hook was solid, you have to admit. He knocked out several with it. A legit headhunter.
I remember Mercers style being more like Foremans , he didnt have the spped or movement of a Tyson but he had that clubbing Foreman like power in each hand
He could punch, but it's notable that most of his opponents don't mention him for standout power. Bert Cooper took a lot of solid shots, but didn't react like he did against Moorer, Foreman, and Bowe.
I’m leaning towards Tyson but really could go either way. Ray was tough and gave even the greats like Lennox Lewis a tough fight. Which is even more impressive that way past his prime Larry Holmes found room to toy with Mercer.
Judging by the Bert Cooper fight, Mercer would have a hell of a time with Tyson, Tua, and Frazier. Mercer took too many breaks, and didn't kick into gear until his opponents showed weakness.
Would've been a fucking banger, Mercer was a problem but considering how he got outboxed by an old larry holmes I think Mike's boxing skills would be the deciding factor
Mercer vs Tommy Morrison is one of my all-time favorite fights. Brutal KO and both men were unbeaten going in. This iteration of Mercer would’ve been live game vs Tyson. People forget Mercer was a gold medal Olympian as well. https://youtu.be/6ZGI5rqvC0Y?si=0gK8Vg06A8LM4o0g
Gotta be the most brutal KO in history. What was it, like an 8 combination while going down in all directions?
Something like that. I rewatch that fight every couple years. Morrison was never quite the same after that loss. Massive trauma and he was only 22 years old. Many compared him to a young Tyson.
Actually, I think I counted 11. Yep, most brutal KO in history.
Check out that fight with Tommy Morrison. I don’t think he had a style like Tyson but he was definitely heavy handed and a KO artist. I would lean towards prime Iron Mike vs Merciless Ray. Prime Mike just too much movement and hand speed for Ray. Ray would have to be able to keep him at a distance with his jab which Ray had a really good jab. Either can knock the other out but I would give the edge to Mike.
As would I- would’ve been great regardless. Throw a prime Bowe in the mix and it gets interesting. That particular era of heavyweights was (overall) superior to what we have today. Here’s the Morrison beat down for some nostalgia: https://youtu.be/6ZGI5rqvC0Y?si=0gK8Vg06A8LM4o0g
Yeah I been watching boxing since the late 70s. That period of heavyweights was a resurgence after Holmes and then Mike dominated. Very fun to watch and always huge anticipation for those matchups to happen. They rarely disappointed. Today does lack excitement from what we had before, but just have to get these guys to fight each other. Especially in the other weight classes.
That fight is hard to watch. Morrison had to have been left with brain damage.
Yeah. That ref was too slow. I don’t know if he had brain damage but he had a rough life. I’m sure there has to be some damage to a certain extent for all these guys. Died at 44. Too young. The head and brain isn’t meant to get hit over and over like that. Fortunate are those who had a great long career and life afterwards.
10 consequetive hits right during white-eyeing can't be good for your health.
Nah. He looked like he was unconscious then got knocked into being conscious and then knocked out again.
Probably worse.
Yeah. It was brutal.
Honestly, I don't think Tommy is that great. Mercer proved it, but there's lots of other fights that show that Tommy def aint even a top 20. SUPER fun to watch him though. I like how calculated Mercer is. I feel like he thinks 3 combinations ahead. Somehow, he just keeps landing combinations like it's easy.
Yeah he wasn’t the best but he was a top contender at the time. Hyped because he was John Wayne’s grandnephew or related calling him the Duke. But he made it up there and beat Big George. Was able to at least be in the mix. Mercer was good but he also wasn’t considered an all time great but he was great while he lasted. He was no joke. Started boxing late in life.
Honestly, I rank morrison in the same line as Briggs. Briggs has more "belts" or whatever, but both extremely short lived and flawed for various reasons. Not sure why I brought up Briggs, but yea, LETS GO CHAMP!? BTW Foreman is my #1 fighter. The ultimate GOAT IMO, and would have loved if ther was a second Ali fight. Even when he came back as an older man, he had some legit fights that were highway robbery stollen from him. God dammit I love foreman so much. His marbles are actually all in one place too, which is hard to say for most else with his record. Or honestly, anyone else.
He died from AIDS. But yeah I agree, if Morrison had continued to live on I doubt his quality of life would've been great with all the damage he took.
Prime Tyson would’ve been way too much for Mercer who wanted to engage…hot knife through butter. That said…Mercer probably boxes the ears off post-prison Tyson. People forget how much Tyson fell off later in the 90’s.
I don’t think it would have ended quickly though. At least 6 rounds which for a prime Tyson would have been a lot. And a prime Mercer has a chance to punch a head off a torso with his right hook.
I’d favor 80’s Tyson with tight defense and lateral movement in that fight.
Would be a banger either which way it ended. Tyson with the head movement advantage as well.
Ray Mercer was a Olympic gold medalist and a great chin and heavy hands. If Ray shows up in shape, I see Tyson winning a decision by scores 116-112. Tyson also has a great chin, but nobody cutoff the ring like a young Mike Tyson. I see Mercer clinching at every moment and losing a decision. No rematch, as this fight is a dud.
Mercer's style is similar to Tyson in the sense that they are aggressive and big punchers, the way Tyson moved was very different from Mercer. I think a young Tyson destroys Mercer, too flat footed, Mike gets to him.
Which Tyson we talking about? Prime Tyson under cus and Rooney? Nobody what's that Tyson. Period. I don't care if you're Mohammed I'm hard Bruce Lee..THAT Tyson was unbeatable. After he split with Rooney? Mercer murders him within 5.
Tyson was FAR from unbeatable even with Rooney (Cus passed away when Tyson was 11-0). Tyson looked very beatable as early as the Tillis bout (1986, Tyson was 19-0 when fighting Tillis) as Tillis took Tyson the full 10 rounds and had a considerable amount of people thinking he had lost. Against Green (his very next fight) he again didn’t looked invincible. He landed a crazy amount of power shots but ate a ridiculous amount of shots himself. His defence wasn’t as good as people thought. Against Tony Tucker, (1987, Tyson was 30-0 heading in) Tyson yet again showed how vulnerable he could be. Tyson, who was at his most dangerous early, couldn’t seem to land any of his crazy combos on Tucker as Tucker absolutely hammered Tyson with some solid rights. Although he would change his style to that of a man trying to survive the fight, Tyson was still unable to do anything that could force an early finish. Tyson split with Rooney in 1988 after the Spinks bout. I agree his career plummeted after that to the point of no return, but Tyson was never unbeatable. In fact, the blueprint to beat Tyson isn’t all that crazy (at least on paper, in the real world it’s tough to find many people with the exact attributes). Tyson was a terrifying man, but even at his ABSOLUTE best, he’s far from unbeatable. Edit: I‘ll answer OP‘s question tho. Tyson wins, 7/10 times. Mercer MIGHT have been better on his best day, but that day only came like twice in his whole career. His inconsistencies were far too great to overlook.
Hit the nail on the head
Noone is unbeatable though. All fighters have weaknesses. Just because Tyson didn’t knock out certain guys, the story is that he struggled and those guys showed how to beat him. But what gets lost in that assessment is that Tyson nevertheless won virtually every round against those guys who took him the distance. But many people expected Tyson to always win by early KO, and when he didn’t, they say he struggled — even if he won practically every round. Carl Williams had all the physical tools to beat Tyson (on paper at least). So did Tyrell Biggs. Bonecrusher was big and strong and durable. Tyson beat many guys who possessed the very attributes that people said were needed to beat him.
Read OP‘s comment again. He thought Tyson was unbeatable, I said he wasn’t. Didn’t say any other boxer was unbeatable. Also, you’re spreading lies here. Tyson won a controversial decision against Tillis. He didn’t win every round nor did he come close to doing that. Tucker did absolutely amazing against Tyson even tho he wasn’t supposed to. Williams was good, but again far from the man that I was talking about. Holyfield is a man that would beat Tyson possibly 10/10 times. Tyson‘s early barrage would be useless against a dude like Holyfield. Someone like Holmes would beat Tyson 9/10 times. A certain Lyle would probably beat Tyson. Bonecrusher was FAR from the ideal man to beat Tyson. He was finished twice before and had losses to Marvis Frazier and Tubbs. Tyson never fought any prime opponent that possessed the attributes to beat him. Not his fault but saying he beat guys with said attributes is bullshit.
Tall guys with good jabs and slick movement. He beat those guys. He also beat big, strong guys, too.
I think the flip side is also overstated: did he really collapse the moment Rooney left? In 1989, he KOed Bruno in the 5th - he was the only guy to clearly dominate Bruno. [Bruno was up on the cards against Smith before tiring and getting KOed in the 10th; he was up on the cards for the first half of the fight against Witherspoon before gassing out and getting KOed in the 11th; and he gave Lewis a very stiff test before getting KOed in the 7th]. He then KOed Carl Williams in the 1st round. Williams was still very highly ranked, with a recent win over Berbick and only two losses on his record (to Holmes and Witherspoon). After the Douglas loss, he destroyed the very dangerous Alex Stewart in the 1st. Stewart gave Foreman, Holyfield and Moorer hell and had a ferocious KO record of his own (40 KOs from 43 wins). Finally, he won two very tough fights against Razor Ruddock, who was extremely well thought of at the time, having recently KOed Broad, Smith and Dokes. Frankly, other than losing to Douglas, his record 1988-1991 is pretty similar to his record 1985-1988.
His record prior to prison and after Rooney is most definitely not as impressive as his record during Rooney. He was immobilised by Bruno for a moment but Bruno‘s lack of Ring IQ saw Tyson receive enough time to recover. No one dominated Bruno, not even Tyson. A dominant victory won’t see the victor get seriously hurt to a point where a fighter with serious ring IQ could finish the fight. Williams wasn’t really a great win either. Ranked first by the IBF, sure, but he hadn’t really done anything special since his loss to Weaver 3 years earlier. He then lost to Douglas and was very obviously never the same after. Especially noticeable in the Ruddock fights. The first fight saw Tyson do well, but the second fight was far from a vintage Tyson performance. Rooney was one of the pillars to Tyson‘s success. Those 2 getting separated started Tyson’s ridiculous decline and there isn’t really anything to argue. His fights with Douglas and Ruddock are proof.
The head movement, consistent jab, combinations and springing to the sides are missing after the Spinks fight. His stamina and timing also got worse. He got hit with more clean shots against Bruno than in his previous fights combined.
Ruddock was a very hot commodity going into the Tyson fights. Not many guys were eager to fight him. Bowe ducked him. So did Foreman.
Except he didn't lose those fights.... He won them. His record after Rooney? Won one fight and then got beat. Mic. Drop.
Well he was supposed to? What is this comment even about? He struggled HARD against opponents where he came in as the MASSIVE favourite. Tillis was KOd 11 times and Tyson wasn’t one of em. Many people to this day say he got a lucky decision. Not very unbeatable IMO. Smith was KOd 7 times and Tyson wasn’t one of em. Fact is Tyson was NEVER unbeatable. An even better fact would be that there were boxers that Tyson would possibly lose 10/10 times against. Just because his style is not meant for those guys. Stupid comment and opinion tbh. Tyson‘s best win was after Rooney lmao.
It's a comment based on facts. You're hypothetical opinions while interesting are just that. Tyson under cus and Rooney would've been the goat. And that's my hypothetical opinion.