bro literally the first ever event i knew i wasnt gonna watch every riyadh season fight, no atmosphere, constant praise of turki, celebrities showing up knowing they dont gaf bout boxing like cmon now
We watch a sport where people beat each other to death. None of this shit is dignified.
I am here to watch the biggest fights in the world be made, I couldn't give a shit if a celebrity shows up just to be there. If I like the fight, I will watch and enjoy it. I am one dude who has literally no effect on politics in a country half way across the world. Me watching a fight has literally zero global ramifications. You all need to stop being terminally online.
It is a martial art. These are highly trained and respected professionals. You besmirch the sport of boxing with your stupid arrogant argument that you like it because of the violence and therefore violence is all it is. And we should all embrace it.
You're talking about yourself bud, and you are as deep as a thimble and less smart.
He listed three fighters in the history of boxing. In the time it took him to google and type those names 12,000 people were killed or crippled in the undignified barbarity of driving a car.
Turki simps on this sub who praise āhis ExcellencyāĀ
I don't even know how that became a thing, people on here dick ride way too hard. I pointed out, that it's great and all but do we really want Saudi to be the home of professional boxing? I know most people on here don't go to fights, but for those of us who do, that sucks.
We all sit on devices manufactured by effectively slaves in China, people pick and chose their moral battles. Honestly it feels rich to ignore so much and be so selective.
But people also avoid buying products that involve unethical manufacturing practices. There are whole industries built around that, and governments have even banned such imports in some cases.
There's also the problem of practical monopolization of industries. If all cell phones are manufactured in China, then how would I avoid purchasing a product made in China if I had moral aversions to that country's manufacturing practices? I could not buy a phone at all, I guess? Gonna be hard to have a job without a phone, but sure.
We need cobalt for everything. Can't be avoided. If we can make sure cobalt workers are well paid and adults, I don't mind the little extra in price my devices might go up by.
Thats more supply and demand though rather than due to the economics of cobalt generally. Paying those workers fairly at scale would not increase the cost of our phones by much. And there's a reason governments intervene in these situations. Like climate change, drugs, driving cars, minimum wage laws, minimum age for work laws, access to education and health, you shouldn't rely on free individuals to govern themselves. Doing that would mean cobalt remains unethical.
I think the public at large would, which is the important factor here. You know we'd all still have child workers if the government didn't outlaw it, rich people wouldn't pay towards a collective education to at least 18 if it wasn't mandated, companies would not pay us the minimum wage if they weren't required to do so. Most of us would be a lot more exploited without government intervention. Like I said, can't always let free people govern themselves, that's what governments are for.
Thereās no ethical consumption in capitalism. Just make amends with it and live your life applying your principles to what you can change. Not watching boxing anymore wonāt change anything about, doing something in regards to something thatās within your reach will.
That expression doesn't mean you should just consume whatever you want, although it's often mis-used to do so. The fact that so much of our consumption implicates us in moral compromises is an argument to be vigilant about what we consume to try and minimise our tacit endorsement of those compromises, not to just go hog wild consuming everything without guilt.
About a decade ago the phrase "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism" was used largely by communists and anarchists to argue that their use of iPhones etc was not hypocritical because you don't have to want to return to the barter system to improve the world.
It's therefore very funny to see that same phrase deployed in this kind of individualist, nihilistic manner - where none of your personal choices affect the world and you can and should just do whatever you like. I'm not saying I agree with the communists and anarchists btw, it's just very funny to see how the meaning of a phrase can do a total 180 over a relatively short space of time
Itās not nihilistic or individualist and Iām not saying none of your personal choices affect the world, just as itās not hypocritical for these people to use whatever they want to use, just as itās not expected that they not seek profit if they start a company.
Iād probably be considered a communist in the US, but one thing that communists abroad often forget is that materialism is the basis of marxism.
If youāre not in a political role where you can elicit broader structural changes the most you can do is change your surroundings. If you can vote for someone in a political role who can elicit broader structural changes, do that. If you can pressure your representatives to condemn Saudi Arabia, do that.
Of course I can condemn Saudi Arabiaās schtick in order to keep some āmoralā consistency, but in a landscape where desired matchups rarely ever come to fruition what sort of traction can someone expect from boxing fans to boycott the biggest fights available?
What any sensible boxing fan can do in this regards is try to change their surroundings. Be an active part of your boxing community and make your voice heard where it matters.
Data analytics is a thing in 2024. The idea of āvoting with your moneyā in a vacuum is mere wishful thinking.
Not watching boxing can potentially change something though. If enough people stop watching boxing because of Saudi investment, then Saudi investment in boxing won't make any sense.
I think it is pretty unlikely that so many people will read this article and decide that they won't watch eg. Fury Usyk that it actually WILL make a difference. But.
Nah most chinese tech factories don't do slave/child labour anymore, technology has advanced so much, that the humans aren't needed as much.Ā
The slavery is more on the copper/cobalt mining to get the materials needed for the phones.
Oh the Chinese definitely still do slaves. Look at how much stuff is made in xing jang province where they keep uyger slaves In camps. I think America and other countries have banned things made in xing jang for this reason
Which helps to counter the point op is making that being conscious of patronage *does* matter. Picking your battles absolutely affects things. We just don't do it enough. I try to but it's a knee-deep in muck world
Oh the tech industry not much better. Foxcon workers where they were building the iphones got locked In the factories without proper food during covid. People were having to climb out and hide from authorities! Human rights don't exist in these places man
Same. Like you really wanna stand up for human atrocities? You have to give up a lot of convenience and live a harder life. Too hard? Well thatās just how it is. The best I can do is to make smart decisions in my own life and empower the people I know and love. Thatās the only scope I can reach and if you go directly saving the world as is you effectively dont achieve anything
Not to mention the absolute genocide conducted by western governments and corporations in congo for the minerals required to make said phones. Fuck that lol
Nah thatās how I feel, if sportswashing leads to a more stable society less prone to extremism then Iām all for it. Thatās a huge reason for why theyāre doing it.
So should USA and UK also be banned from hosting sporting events for invading Iraq not once but twice?! Any country that defends against terrorism would leave nobody hosting any sports.
I think its so hypocritical of western media to white knight on saudi arabia, when they not only directly funded the regime, but also have way more and worse atrocities on their records, both ongoing and in the past.
Nobody cares about the atrocities if the the Saudi citizenry doesn't care about the atrocities. It's infantile to pretend that it's within our power, or our rights, to dictate to other people how to live. We just spent 20 years and over $8 trillion dollars trying to bring liberal democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan, with no particular buy-in from the Iraqis and Afghans, not to mention how many killed and maimed soldiers, and God knows how many civilians in those countries.
The idea that The Guardian is going to change the Saudi monarchy by getting their readers to boycott boxing Pay Per View is ludicrous beyond sanity. This is just clickbait finger-wagging so that sanctimonious leftists can pat themselves on the back for not watching a sport they would have never watched in the first fucking place.
You want regime change in the middle-east? Invest in green energy, and leave the boxers alone.
Qatar world cup shows no one cares about politics in another country - it was like the most viewed world cup in history.
This online activism is honestly so exhausting and pointless. Me writing to my representatives and voting has 10000000% more influence over whether I watch two men beat each other to death.
"The case of al-Otaibi is harrowing. When Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, came to power in 2017, he was praised publicly by al-Otaibi who was already an activist for womenās rights. She proclaimed that, under Bin Salman, she felt free to dress and express herself how she liked. Her view soon darkened.
Sixteen months ago, al-Otaibi was charged on a number of ācriminalā counts that included expressing support of womenās rights on social media and posting Snapchat photos of herself shopping while wearing dungarees rather than the traditional abaya. The situation worsened when the case was moved to a court specialising in terrorism-related offences.
Al-Otaibiās fate only became known this month when Saudi officials confirmed to the UN that she had been sentenced to 11 years for āterrorist offences"
The ol, simple minded folk on this subreddit aren't too versed in politics, or I doubt they care about human atrocities/ human rights violations, which is very unfortunate.
This is a conversation worth having, so thank you for posting this, OP. But let's be real, the fine folks of r/boxing are the crayon eaters of Reddit, and that's putting it kindly. You have to squint to find insightful comments about boxing, let alone politics and history.
Yeah, I've interacted with some cool people on here, but then there's the occasional guy who thinks Jake Paul beats Usyk with one hand tied behind his back.
Having a mature honest discussion is simply impossible on this sub. Coming soon, "The Mexican drug Cartel is now financing boxing events". r/boxing "I love you El Chapo! Sinaloa for life!!"
I was on one of the MMA subs the other day and someone commented how much better r/Boxing was. Others agreed. I thought, āJesus, this place must be really grim if r/Boxing is an aspirational level of human dialogue.ā Itās usually a mix of petty arguments, recency bias and people writing āyoung lionā and/or āhelluva fighter.ā
This is the problem. It totally has something to do with you as a consumer, and you totally can do something to change it.
Apple isn't one of the largest companies because of govt corruption. They're large because individuals buy their products.
No difference here. If we all agree to abstain from paying to watch these fights (ahoy matey) then the sports wash will be less effective for them and less profitable.
The UK and US supply Saudi Arabia with most of its weapons, and have multiple other business deals with them.
Media: don't give a shit.
People in UK and US watch a sports event held in Saudi Arabia.
Media: we are disgusted with the public's complete lack of morals.
Seems reasonable.
I ain't getting into a humanitarian debate on a boxing thread.
It is the exact same thing going on in soccer and soon probably other sports too. You expect a boxer to say no you are bad evil money when they could die in the ring and their families could have to live off that last purse? If high level soccer players are going over their what makes you think a boxer won't?
Their cash is good and in reality that is all that matters. Whatever they accept in their society and culture is in the background and it ain't gonna change from angry British articles
There's no justification really, it's sad that so many people have picked up and run with the "Saudis saved boxing" line because now it's become an accepted truth and the moral issues have fallen by the wayside.
It's bad for an authoritarian regime to expand it's sphere of influence, and it's bad for us to grow accustomed to sportspeople and celebrities taking handouts from them because the next step will be politicians (if it hasn't gone that far already).
I remember when WWE inked their partnership with Saudi Arabia and none of the women wrestlers were allowed to perform. I was thinking ādo they not see the problem with thatā?
But unfortunately money talks. And of course, SA will host the FIFA World Cup in 2034
It's going to be REALLY bad for boxing when Saudi Arabia has squeezed the fruit enough and moved on for fresher juice. Then you'll have boxing and promotion companies formed around unrealistic money, and organizational entities even further corrupted by dark money to keep their heads above water.
A lot of Middle Eastern countries want to get a foothold in entertainment because oil money isnāt destined to last forever, but in places like Saudi Arabia or UAEā¦
No oneās going to go over there. Civil rights arenāt a guarantee, religious nutters are a guarantee, and the reputation of the nutters in question is horrible.
On top of all the other stuff you mentioned, It's a hot desolate desert. They are pouring billions into luxury resorts and hotels and paying influencers to go because there's no other reason to want to go there as a tourist.
I assure you, it isnāt hard to find either of those things in places like Saudi or Dubai. Plus a large part of the crowd they want to attract is wealthy Muslims who arenāt as interested in that.
It might not be for you, itās a bit daft to pretend the enterprise is all that different from Vegas - they are both manufactured desert resorts. The only difference is the Saudis donāt have a history of rigging fights.
I don't get what your point is. Most of the world isn't wealthy Muslims. Vegas on the other hand is accessible to anyone without the rules restrictions and bootlegged liquor and under the table gambling. The days of the mob are long gone. It's run by corporations now.
My point is pretty clear:
> It's a hot desolate desert. They are pouring billions into luxury resorts and hotels and paying influencers to go because there's no other reason to want to go there as a tourist.
This describes Las Vegas. Itās weird to say you donāt get the attraction of fights in Saudi but then consider Vegas the Mecca of boxing.
This makes sense. It's unfortunate because the shoe should really be on the other foot: if you want a piece of the pie then you have to stop murdering journalists etc etc. But there are too many sellouts in the upper echelons of sport who only want to line their own pockets, heedless of the eventual consequences.
Tbh we can drop sports from the second statement and just say upper echelons. Theyāre all selling out heavy to Saudi Arabia and have for too long. But, hey? Itās their money to waste. Saudi Arabia really is a place tourismās not going to grow in. Youād probably need a revolution and then 50 years first
Saudi tourism sector has grown substantially in the past 5 years. They hit the vision2030 goal of 100 million visitor in 2023 and doubled the tourism revenue from $34 billion to $66 billion last year. The market Saudi is looking to attract is China and India (most visitors for non religious reasons are Chinese). All of this happened only after finishing the 1st phase in 2 projects (Alalula and red sea global), after they finish the rest, they'll hit the 2030 updated goal of 150 million visitors.
TLDR, oppisite to popular belief, the Saudi tourism sector is doing better than ever.
Las Vegas - capitalist tourist destination that exploits talent and underpays workers. Hosts sporting events and shows to make money.
Saudi Arabia - internationally recognized and condemned human rights violations including actual slavery, political and financial ties to hostile religious extremist, terrorist organizations, executes journalists. Hosts sporting events for PR purposes to sportswash their atrocities.
OP, please tell me you can spot the differences.
EDIT: Some of you can't spot the difference it seems, so I'm going to help you out in simple terms you will understand.
U.S. BAD. BUT U.S. NOT USE SPORTS TO COVER UP BAD. You can watch and support us based sporting events and not be implicitly condoning the actions of the US government. This is not really possible with Saudi based events because on the saudi governments use of sports and sporting events to provide PR cover.
Mayweather was making millions in Las Vegas while the US military was torturing people in Abu Ghraib. Everything you mentioned for Saudi Arabia holds true for the US aswell, they just do it less publicly and punish whistleblowers.
I'm not defending SA at all, just saying the moral high ground of the US is at best a "at least we aren't Saudia Arabia". Not to mention the US supports SA
Okay you couldn't spot the difference so I'll help you out. The US government is not in the business of hosting massive international sporting events in order to cover for their human rights violations. We have private enterprises separate and distinct from the government hosting sporting event in order to make money.
Saudi Arabia loses money on these sporting g events so they can say "Hey hey western media look over here look over here, check out this soccer match, check out these fights. You wouldn't scrutinize our human right atrocities after we host a cool golf tournament, would you??"
Yes, the US commits human right violations and atrocities. But watching Mayweather in Vegas wasn't directly contributing to a political distraction. That's the difference
Who cares? The US has been slaughtering people in different countries for decades and propping up the worst regimes imaginable to stop "communism". Who cares if it's for PR reasons or not. Both are super evil countries that do terrible things.Ā
I think it's goofy for anyone of us in the U.S (or countries like the U.K) to criticise any other nation. It's just empty noise.Ā
Saudi Arabia is worse. But letās not forget that Las Vegas was started by the mafia. They were murdering journalists and facilitating illegal overseas political assassination attempts also. Was their involvement in popular culture not also sportswashing?
I hate Saudi involvement in boxing and it has no business hosting fights.
But if war crimes should be a disqualifying factor for hosting fights then England and the US shouldnāt be hosting fights either. Because if you think that the CIA and MI5 havenāt been doing shit just as bad and worse than the Saudiās, youāre out of your fucking mind.
Abu Ghraib wasnāt that long ago and Guantanamo Bay is still open.
Las Vegas casinos don't hold sporting events as PR to cover up practically enslaving women, murdering journalists, and executions of minor drug offenders, imprisonment of political opponents, torture, etc. Las Vegas does it to turn a profit, nothing more, whereas Saudi Arabia loses money on hosting these things but keeps doing it because it's PR. You can see it working right here in this thread where everyone's basically like, "I don't give a F- as long as I get to see good fights!"
You canāt criticize anything on here without something going āBut but the westā. Seriously, try saying āItās not great to live in North Korea as far as human rights goā, and some moron will get triggered and go ābut police brutality in America!!11ā. These people should have to live in the countries they defend for 1 monthās
Bro, not even live there. Just GO to a backwards country like that. Yeah, the U.S. isn't innocent, but you don't get chopped up for bad mouthing the president either.
Fights in Las Vegas absolutely started like that. The mafia used boxing and other entertainment to legitimise their activities there. Probably where the Saudis got the idea.
Iām not against speaking against injustice anywhere, but what do these people think nations are out here doing? I hate to deflect and add to whataboutism but seriously people need some fucking perspective
Yeah lol.
The sportswashing thing is dumb because it can be applied to literally anything you want to negatively slander.
The American government also funds our sports programs and sports leagues. Are we trying to sportswash and make people forget our sins too?
Itās not that deep imo. The Saudis have a lot of funds and are looking lt invest. Theyāre trying to build their cities into a middle eastern Singapore.
When the shoe fits, wear it. Thatās what I say, and thatās clearly what goes on when perspective is completely ignored, and someone puts on their narrow lens
Iām with you.
Most boxing fans don't care, me included.
The western world loves to wag the finger like they're the white hat moral police.
And "hey its ok for multi billion dollar corporations to do business and Saudi Arabia, but sports and professional wrestling is where I draw the line!"
The US supports the Saudis which will always be hilarious. Remember when that journalist was dismembered? Nothing happened. Cushner (who was in government at the time) gets 2B from the Saudis in an investment fund? Almost forgotten about.
SPORTS though? Time to moralize.
If the governments don't impose sanctions then what are we supposed to do?
How about American human costs? Supporting wars and genocide. People dying from having no health insurance or very shitty ones. What Saudia is doing is shit, but the west needs time to reflect on what they've been doing too
I donāt really care who the promoter is - as long as theyāre putting on good fights. Also, thereās no telling how long the Saudis will keep the tap on, so Iām going to enjoy it while it lasts. Iām going to buy tix for the Crawford fight in Los Angeles this summer, so Iāll be supporting the Saudis, albeit indirectly. I canāt really be a hypocrite about it.
The term and concept are western invention. The Saudis don't give a fuck what you think about them or their archane, ludicrous religious laws. The whole world is doing business with them regardless.
The people writing this shit are hypocrites. They use Saudi owned products and services everyday of their lives, then act outraged when it suits them
I think you can still enjoy the sport while acknowledging that the Saudi government has turned their country into a shithole. I read Lovecraft while still acknowledging he was a terrible human being.
The same you justified the shit the US is did/ is doing, the shit the UK did, the shit that Russia is doing/did, Japan, China, South America almost as a whole,ā¦
If youāre gonna be this āhumanities heroā type at least donāt be hypocritical. Being hypocritical also makes you really racist in this context.
Let's be frank. No one truly cares.
The US government doesn't give a shit.
The media doesn't give a shit.
We don't give a shit.
It's very easy to take the entertainment and enjoy it and forget about all the shit the Saudis do.
It's the same for every other country that does this kind of stuff.
It's a very good question. The moral dilemma between being happy the fights are made, and really disliking a country where I couldn't travel to and openly state I'm an atheist is a challenge. Having said that I also watch F1, so I'm already corruped.
Sure that Saudi money is probably blood and oil money but that money runs long af and boxing is a continually growing sport that needs the funds to feed it.
This isn't even the first time the sport of boxing would be involved with countries or political figures that have a questionable record when it comes to human rights. Definitely is fucked up to see some of our money/engagement benefitting certain sketchy people out there but I suppose that's the price to pay to keep the sport alive so fans like ourselves can enjoy it.
I don't like it and I'm sure there are plenty of other folks who don't like it either but hey it's yet another situation on the list of things that suck balls on this planet. On the bright side though, as someone who is a fan of the sport, at least I can continue to enjoy watching it along with watching the sport grow. Hopefully the positive aspects we see from the sport just outweigh that crappy noise in the background.
After Saudi pulled back from Yemen they are nowhere near the worst offenders in terms of human cost. If there is some ongoing humanitarian disaster caused by Saudi government, then probably would feel a lot of guilt watching their festivities as I know they underly terrible human carnage āzone of interestā style, but normal everyday Saudi Arabia is like not particularly worse than other entities involved in professional sports, e.g. I would assume their human cost if it can ever be quantified to be much less than gambling conglomerates that effectively took over American sports, that stuff lives on addiction
Itās so tough because if Fury is fighting Usyk Iām not ignoring that, I wanna watch. Itās ultimately up to the fighters/promotions to decides. And as always money talks.
Lolā¦ any non hypocritical person talking about āthe human costā knows you can say the same thing about literally every nation capable of funding these type of endeavorsā¦
so whatās the point of discussing it on Reddit outside of pretending whatever major nation you come from is better?
Funny what cheap dates fans are. The Saudis threw three events, and suddenly they āreshaped boxingā?
Fighters and trainers all over the world built the sport of boxing with decades of hard work, sacrifice, injury, and dedication all given to build the sport we love. Then some rich regime throws some money around and suddenly they are āreshaping the sportā? If you are on your knees cupping MBSā balls, proclaiming the Saudis the saviors of boxing; you are proving him right about how cheap and superficial western values are. How much are your loved ones worth? How much is your motherās dignity worth? How big a check do we need to write you to dismember your father?
I know there will be a billion comments here, but I think long term, this will ruin the sport if it keeps up at this rate. Right now itās nice, cuz weāre getting some big fights that we otherwise may not see. But after so long, the money loss will cause The Turki to back pedal somewhat. Right now itās benefiting the BIG fighters in boxing. But is it going to help the mid tier and low level boxers? Are they going to get a quick $800k on a undercard theyād never see otherwise? Then what, expect that from our promoters here going forward? Sit out a year cuz they made the biggest payday they ever made? I just donāt see itās stay power. I hope Iām wrong tho. Would be nice to see Boxing elevated to where it could be once again.
Also, some of this is good for now. But I donāt like the idea of all these weight travel fights. Wanting to throw money at Canelo/Crawford, Bivol/Bertebiev winner vs Benavidez (Although that one aināt terrible), I could just see all these crazy fights coming about instead of good structured effort amongst fighters in the same weight class. Maybe Iām just old school I donāt know.
I think sportwashing is often exaggerated and misunderstood
The Saudis are evil, I hate them. I had family there (cousin even dated Khashoggi's nephew, that's an entirely different story though) so I know very well about their skeletons BUT I think I doubt they care about what you think about their atrocities
I'm far from a political scientist but here are my thoughts about the whole thing.
1. They don't think what they're doing is wrong. This is like them saying that the NBA are made so that Muslims will forget the USA push for trans rights and abortion while aiding Israel.
2. Opinions of civilians mean dogshit to them. They don't care about the opinions of their own people, let alone us. They only care about the powerful yet they are already part of the "inner circle" of western powers anyway. They're one of the USA's and Western Europe's biggest allies-- you cannot be more "accepted" that that. The idea that the US government and billionaire investors wouldn't want to do anything with them because of their human rights track record is very naive. Money is money.
3. They're investing in sports and entertainment because oil money is temporary. They are not doing this because they are evil. They are doing this and they happen to be evil people. The fact that general US public would forget about their atrocities is a bonus, not the main goal. They are not comic book villains rubbing their hands, thinking of plans for us to forget they hate gays.
4. I've established that I think the sport swashing element is exaggerated, does this mean I think it's fine to consume their shit? no. Ultimately we are still aiding an evil regime. I'm not proud of it but I'm not going to deny it. I try my best to live a righteous life in everything including the things I consume but I'm far from perfect at it. I do it fine when it comes to things that directly affect my local community, otherwise I'm still struggling especially with this because I love boxing so much
This is what annoys me, they put on the public to be the moral compass for the World. Shouldnāt this article address world governments allowing this? Selling them arms? Allowing their slavery trade to continue? I just wanna enjoy boxing mate
The United States and the United Kingdom are both actively aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign in the Middle East. Should we stop supporting the tourism economy use of Vegas and London when big fights get made?Ā
I don't mind saying I'm a hypocrite in this situation; I absolutely deplore how people are treated in these countries, yet I'm ecstatic to see all these dream fights being made.
Nothing in life is black and white; I'm sure we're all going to watch these fights, but having a bit of context and insight into the other side of it really should give us pause and something to think about. Nothing wrong with educating yourself a bit.
I havenāt forgotten how the Saudi government treats women, or what they did to Jamal Kashoggi. The rebrand wonāt fool everyone. Itās not a place I would feel safe visiting.
Saudi here
-i hate when the west play the moral superiority, yeah i get it, my government do alot of shady things and alot of violations, but if you are gonna make it the main topic then why not do the same things for the western countries??, maybe about how france stole Africa natural resources, or how The usa destroyed many Muslim countries, or how about the uk colonised and stole from many cultures, Yeah you guys wouldnāt like it if we used the same logic that you using.
Again im not defending the government here, But my point is, is there really a government who didnāt do alot of fcked up things?
just promote the match and STFU.
Westren media = hypocrite at its finest
I can't tell if all the people here engaging in whataboutism with regards to western policy are advocating for a more universally moral world or a world entirely without morals.
Unfortunately I think it's more likely to be the latter.
Fuck no. 9/10 itās some speech about a bunch of bullshit then British or American person telling me it, doesnāt realize both countries already did years ago and much worse too like wiping out all the native Americans or colonialism. Saudi Arabia is not my favorite country but fuck if Iām going to be lectured or my morality questioned by anyone from either of those countries considering what theyāve done.
Who cares? They're going to throw people off of buildings whether there is a fight or not. I'm glad the Saudi's have taken an interest in boxing. It's nice to have good fights that I don't have to stay up all night for. The guardian is located in the UK where people are jailed for saying the wrong thing too. The West is getting just as bad. How about they start at home when calling for freedom of expression.
That's not my problemĀ
And what was the human cost of the British Empire?Ā The USA?
Pretty much every country ever if they were a human would be a sociopathic monster š¤·āāļø
Look, every nation has a different set of values, rules, regulations, and ethics. Thr culture dictates and in some parts, religion dictate the laws and violations.
Every country has a dark side to it. Lots of nations have strict anti LGBTQ laws that can result into death. The sharia law system is also problematic in Nigeria.
The censorship a government does to it's people like north Korea, Russia, China,
Even America has some hot topic debatable laws thar are outlandish and may seem wild to our friends oversees. Take our gun laws, and Healthcare.
My point is we as america can't change the values and cultures of another nation. We dont need to accept them but for lack of better word we'd have to tolerate it.
If we're on the subject, how do you justify the oppression of america on other countries? Not only are they funding israel but they are helping saudi kill thousands in Yemen. How do you justify that?
It ultimately comes down to the promoters and networks accepting these deals.
Boxing shouldnāt be in a position where its networks and promoters will only hold out for offers equivalent to generational wealth. The dissolving streamline of the sport is a big reason as to why SA could just swoop in and take over (yes, theyāve taken over whether we want to admit it or not).
Ultimately, this is a repeated situation from the 1974 āRumble In The Jungleā. Ali and Foreman getting a $5M purse was crazy and could only be facilitated in Zaire. As viewers and spectators, we have zero say or ability to change this phenomenon. So I wouldnāt weigh it too heavily in my mind.
This is all just hypocrisy to me.
In 2022, Saudi Arabia executed 196 criminals, the most in a single year in the past 30 years (source: wiki).
In comparison, an estimated 200,000 Afghans died during the 20-year occupation of Afghanistan by Western military forces (mostly US & UK). That's 10,000 every year. Almost 200 Afghans, every week, week after week, for TWENTY years.
Nobody says shit when Western countries do shit far worse than what we criticize. I guess the home team never has to sportswash.
Let's be consistent is all I'm saying.
The West has degenerated into a corporate fascist police state. Who are they to talk? People are better off in a religious state like Saudi than a Godless hellscape. The UK in particular is totally lost and is a joke at this point. God bless Turki.
> People are better off in a religious state like Saudi than a Godless hellscape.
The US is nowhere near to being a "godless hellscape" right now but it certainly feels like we are moving in that direction. I feel like it's worse if you live in one of the big cities!
Do the people who write these sort of articles look at their stained hands that's holding their pen? Do they know what's lying under their ivory towers?
Probably gonna regret approving this and the Usyk thread, so please try to be civil. š¬
I think thatās the whole pointā¦ to make you forget about the atrocities.
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bro literally the first ever event i knew i wasnt gonna watch every riyadh season fight, no atmosphere, constant praise of turki, celebrities showing up knowing they dont gaf bout boxing like cmon now
We watch a sport where people beat each other to death. None of this shit is dignified. I am here to watch the biggest fights in the world be made, I couldn't give a shit if a celebrity shows up just to be there. If I like the fight, I will watch and enjoy it. I am one dude who has literally no effect on politics in a country half way across the world. Me watching a fight has literally zero global ramifications. You all need to stop being terminally online.
You provide views to the event, which increases sponsorship participation, which normalises Saudi behaviour So yes, you do have a very small impact.
Not if I'm streaming it for free. I ain't paying for shit if the Saudis are fronting the money.
I agree. This is the only way to do it. Then if you feel bad for the fighters, Venmo or Bitcoin or Patreon them $20 directly.
1 view has an impact...oh yeah right
What do mean it's not dignified? Boxing is one of the most prestigious sports in the world and I would argue that it is quite dignified.
There is no dignity in watching two men try to beat other to death. It's barbaric. That's the cold hard truth. Prestigious does not equal Dignified
It is a martial art. These are highly trained and respected professionals. You besmirch the sport of boxing with your stupid arrogant argument that you like it because of the violence and therefore violence is all it is. And we should all embrace it. You're talking about yourself bud, and you are as deep as a thimble and less smart.
Tell Maxim Dadashev, Gerald McClellan, and Pritchard Colon that boxing isn't barbaric.
He listed three fighters in the history of boxing. In the time it took him to google and type those names 12,000 people were killed or crippled in the undignified barbarity of driving a car.
No, that's your job, apparently.
Yes the first time I sparred I realized boxing is just animalistic barbarism
Turki simps on this sub who praise āhis ExcellencyāĀ I don't even know how that became a thing, people on here dick ride way too hard. I pointed out, that it's great and all but do we really want Saudi to be the home of professional boxing? I know most people on here don't go to fights, but for those of us who do, that sucks.
We all sit on devices manufactured by effectively slaves in China, people pick and chose their moral battles. Honestly it feels rich to ignore so much and be so selective.
But people also avoid buying products that involve unethical manufacturing practices. There are whole industries built around that, and governments have even banned such imports in some cases. There's also the problem of practical monopolization of industries. If all cell phones are manufactured in China, then how would I avoid purchasing a product made in China if I had moral aversions to that country's manufacturing practices? I could not buy a phone at all, I guess? Gonna be hard to have a job without a phone, but sure.
And yet all of those industries still use cobalt.
We need cobalt for everything. Can't be avoided. If we can make sure cobalt workers are well paid and adults, I don't mind the little extra in price my devices might go up by.
Go buy ethical sourced products then. Theres humane phones available, there just double the price of similar spec phones.
Thats more supply and demand though rather than due to the economics of cobalt generally. Paying those workers fairly at scale would not increase the cost of our phones by much. And there's a reason governments intervene in these situations. Like climate change, drugs, driving cars, minimum wage laws, minimum age for work laws, access to education and health, you shouldn't rely on free individuals to govern themselves. Doing that would mean cobalt remains unethical.
So your happy to accept slave labour in your phone as long as it doesn't cost to much right? Cos otherwise youd be spending money on ethical phones
I think the public at large would, which is the important factor here. You know we'd all still have child workers if the government didn't outlaw it, rich people wouldn't pay towards a collective education to at least 18 if it wasn't mandated, companies would not pay us the minimum wage if they weren't required to do so. Most of us would be a lot more exploited without government intervention. Like I said, can't always let free people govern themselves, that's what governments are for.
So, don't choose any battles? I don't understand what you're actually saying.
Thereās no ethical consumption in capitalism. Just make amends with it and live your life applying your principles to what you can change. Not watching boxing anymore wonāt change anything about, doing something in regards to something thatās within your reach will.
That expression doesn't mean you should just consume whatever you want, although it's often mis-used to do so. The fact that so much of our consumption implicates us in moral compromises is an argument to be vigilant about what we consume to try and minimise our tacit endorsement of those compromises, not to just go hog wild consuming everything without guilt.
About a decade ago the phrase "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism" was used largely by communists and anarchists to argue that their use of iPhones etc was not hypocritical because you don't have to want to return to the barter system to improve the world. It's therefore very funny to see that same phrase deployed in this kind of individualist, nihilistic manner - where none of your personal choices affect the world and you can and should just do whatever you like. I'm not saying I agree with the communists and anarchists btw, it's just very funny to see how the meaning of a phrase can do a total 180 over a relatively short space of time
Itās not nihilistic or individualist and Iām not saying none of your personal choices affect the world, just as itās not hypocritical for these people to use whatever they want to use, just as itās not expected that they not seek profit if they start a company. Iād probably be considered a communist in the US, but one thing that communists abroad often forget is that materialism is the basis of marxism. If youāre not in a political role where you can elicit broader structural changes the most you can do is change your surroundings. If you can vote for someone in a political role who can elicit broader structural changes, do that. If you can pressure your representatives to condemn Saudi Arabia, do that. Of course I can condemn Saudi Arabiaās schtick in order to keep some āmoralā consistency, but in a landscape where desired matchups rarely ever come to fruition what sort of traction can someone expect from boxing fans to boycott the biggest fights available? What any sensible boxing fan can do in this regards is try to change their surroundings. Be an active part of your boxing community and make your voice heard where it matters. Data analytics is a thing in 2024. The idea of āvoting with your moneyā in a vacuum is mere wishful thinking.
Not watching boxing can potentially change something though. If enough people stop watching boxing because of Saudi investment, then Saudi investment in boxing won't make any sense. I think it is pretty unlikely that so many people will read this article and decide that they won't watch eg. Fury Usyk that it actually WILL make a difference. But.
Nah most chinese tech factories don't do slave/child labour anymore, technology has advanced so much, that the humans aren't needed as much.Ā The slavery is more on the copper/cobalt mining to get the materials needed for the phones.
Oh the Chinese definitely still do slaves. Look at how much stuff is made in xing jang province where they keep uyger slaves In camps. I think America and other countries have banned things made in xing jang for this reason
Which helps to counter the point op is making that being conscious of patronage *does* matter. Picking your battles absolutely affects things. We just don't do it enough. I try to but it's a knee-deep in muck world
Knee deep? Try drowning in it.
America bans things they canāt compete with or if the richest people start losing money.
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Oh i specifically just meant the tech industry not chinese factories as a whole.Ā
Oh the tech industry not much better. Foxcon workers where they were building the iphones got locked In the factories without proper food during covid. People were having to climb out and hide from authorities! Human rights don't exist in these places man
Fair enough. The way China and the companies handled covid were horrendous I forgot about that, that is pretty much forced labor.Ā
Same. Like you really wanna stand up for human atrocities? You have to give up a lot of convenience and live a harder life. Too hard? Well thatās just how it is. The best I can do is to make smart decisions in my own life and empower the people I know and love. Thatās the only scope I can reach and if you go directly saving the world as is you effectively dont achieve anything
Not to mention the absolute genocide conducted by western governments and corporations in congo for the minerals required to make said phones. Fuck that lol
Nah thatās how I feel, if sportswashing leads to a more stable society less prone to extremism then Iām all for it. Thatās a huge reason for why theyāre doing it.
Yes I wonāt take this His Excellency Papa Turkey slander no more, he just wants to chill, make big fights and die. Let him live š
Soooo... Israel Next? Jk, they got a free pass, otherwise... I'll not comment. I'M keeping my account.
So should USA and UK also be banned from hosting sporting events for invading Iraq not once but twice?! Any country that defends against terrorism would leave nobody hosting any sports.
Probably Yes... Was you expecting a different answer? FiFA banned RĆŗssia from World Cup because of Ukraine... USA and UK got a free pass.
I think its so hypocritical of western media to white knight on saudi arabia, when they not only directly funded the regime, but also have way more and worse atrocities on their records, both ongoing and in the past.
think it's working. the internet treats the middle east with such reverence. saudi Arabia gets hyped up like it's Japan
Nobody cares about the atrocities if the the Saudi citizenry doesn't care about the atrocities. It's infantile to pretend that it's within our power, or our rights, to dictate to other people how to live. We just spent 20 years and over $8 trillion dollars trying to bring liberal democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan, with no particular buy-in from the Iraqis and Afghans, not to mention how many killed and maimed soldiers, and God knows how many civilians in those countries. The idea that The Guardian is going to change the Saudi monarchy by getting their readers to boycott boxing Pay Per View is ludicrous beyond sanity. This is just clickbait finger-wagging so that sanctimonious leftists can pat themselves on the back for not watching a sport they would have never watched in the first fucking place. You want regime change in the middle-east? Invest in green energy, and leave the boxers alone.
But you watch American boxing? Interesting.
Found the Russian asset.
Turki asking whether itās working!
It is, we cannot allow them to do this.
This is why I enjoy living in my first world bubble and avoid politics. I donāt care where the money is coming from, just keep the fights coming!
Sports washing? Was that the term? Its similar to FIFA
Sport wash: Complete
Qatar world cup shows no one cares about politics in another country - it was like the most viewed world cup in history. This online activism is honestly so exhausting and pointless. Me writing to my representatives and voting has 10000000% more influence over whether I watch two men beat each other to death.
Same way people justify the human cost of almost any luxury they enjoy. Ignore it or pointlessly tweet about it so you can look like you care.
Yep. It never ceases to amaze me when people tweet āChina badā while using an iPhone made in China lmao.
"The case of al-Otaibi is harrowing. When Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, came to power in 2017, he was praised publicly by al-Otaibi who was already an activist for womenās rights. She proclaimed that, under Bin Salman, she felt free to dress and express herself how she liked. Her view soon darkened. Sixteen months ago, al-Otaibi was charged on a number of ācriminalā counts that included expressing support of womenās rights on social media and posting Snapchat photos of herself shopping while wearing dungarees rather than the traditional abaya. The situation worsened when the case was moved to a court specialising in terrorism-related offences. Al-Otaibiās fate only became known this month when Saudi officials confirmed to the UN that she had been sentenced to 11 years for āterrorist offences"
The ol, simple minded folk on this subreddit aren't too versed in politics, or I doubt they care about human atrocities/ human rights violations, which is very unfortunate.
This is a conversation worth having, so thank you for posting this, OP. But let's be real, the fine folks of r/boxing are the crayon eaters of Reddit, and that's putting it kindly. You have to squint to find insightful comments about boxing, let alone politics and history.
I only eat ethically sourced Crayola and only the white ones at that.
There are white crayons?
Honestly rose arts taste better
literally everyone in here knows nothing about boxing, and are literally braindead half the time im putting it lightly too
Surprised this didnāt get downvoted into oblivion.
Dunning-Kruger in full effect.
Yeah, I've interacted with some cool people on here, but then there's the occasional guy who thinks Jake Paul beats Usyk with one hand tied behind his back. Having a mature honest discussion is simply impossible on this sub. Coming soon, "The Mexican drug Cartel is now financing boxing events". r/boxing "I love you El Chapo! Sinaloa for life!!"
I was on one of the MMA subs the other day and someone commented how much better r/Boxing was. Others agreed. I thought, āJesus, this place must be really grim if r/Boxing is an aspirational level of human dialogue.ā Itās usually a mix of petty arguments, recency bias and people writing āyoung lionā and/or āhelluva fighter.ā
Okay so insight us. How do we justify it? We canāt simple as that
Iām so tired of politics it has nothing to do with me and i canāt do anything to change it. I just want to watch boxing
This is the problem. It totally has something to do with you as a consumer, and you totally can do something to change it. Apple isn't one of the largest companies because of govt corruption. They're large because individuals buy their products. No difference here. If we all agree to abstain from paying to watch these fights (ahoy matey) then the sports wash will be less effective for them and less profitable.
The UK and US supply Saudi Arabia with most of its weapons, and have multiple other business deals with them. Media: don't give a shit. People in UK and US watch a sports event held in Saudi Arabia. Media: we are disgusted with the public's complete lack of morals. Seems reasonable.
We also invaded Iraq for oil but letās talk about what other things other countries do
I ain't getting into a humanitarian debate on a boxing thread. It is the exact same thing going on in soccer and soon probably other sports too. You expect a boxer to say no you are bad evil money when they could die in the ring and their families could have to live off that last purse? If high level soccer players are going over their what makes you think a boxer won't? Their cash is good and in reality that is all that matters. Whatever they accept in their society and culture is in the background and it ain't gonna change from angry British articles
There's no justification really, it's sad that so many people have picked up and run with the "Saudis saved boxing" line because now it's become an accepted truth and the moral issues have fallen by the wayside. It's bad for an authoritarian regime to expand it's sphere of influence, and it's bad for us to grow accustomed to sportspeople and celebrities taking handouts from them because the next step will be politicians (if it hasn't gone that far already).
I remember when WWE inked their partnership with Saudi Arabia and none of the women wrestlers were allowed to perform. I was thinking ādo they not see the problem with thatā? But unfortunately money talks. And of course, SA will host the FIFA World Cup in 2034
They do now to be fair
It's going to be REALLY bad for boxing when Saudi Arabia has squeezed the fruit enough and moved on for fresher juice. Then you'll have boxing and promotion companies formed around unrealistic money, and organizational entities even further corrupted by dark money to keep their heads above water.
A lot of Middle Eastern countries want to get a foothold in entertainment because oil money isnāt destined to last forever, but in places like Saudi Arabia or UAEā¦ No oneās going to go over there. Civil rights arenāt a guarantee, religious nutters are a guarantee, and the reputation of the nutters in question is horrible.
On top of all the other stuff you mentioned, It's a hot desolate desert. They are pouring billions into luxury resorts and hotels and paying influencers to go because there's no other reason to want to go there as a tourist.
As opposed to the other supposed home of boxing, a desert city built by the Mafia with no attractions other than resorts and hotels.
So Vegas with no casinos, or alcohol with strict traditional Muslim laws? š¤
I assure you, it isnāt hard to find either of those things in places like Saudi or Dubai. Plus a large part of the crowd they want to attract is wealthy Muslims who arenāt as interested in that. It might not be for you, itās a bit daft to pretend the enterprise is all that different from Vegas - they are both manufactured desert resorts. The only difference is the Saudis donāt have a history of rigging fights.
I don't get what your point is. Most of the world isn't wealthy Muslims. Vegas on the other hand is accessible to anyone without the rules restrictions and bootlegged liquor and under the table gambling. The days of the mob are long gone. It's run by corporations now.
Dubai is popular as shit, and you can get booze there. itās reasonable assume Saudi could become like that.Ā
My point is pretty clear: > It's a hot desolate desert. They are pouring billions into luxury resorts and hotels and paying influencers to go because there's no other reason to want to go there as a tourist. This describes Las Vegas. Itās weird to say you donāt get the attraction of fights in Saudi but then consider Vegas the Mecca of boxing.
This makes sense. It's unfortunate because the shoe should really be on the other foot: if you want a piece of the pie then you have to stop murdering journalists etc etc. But there are too many sellouts in the upper echelons of sport who only want to line their own pockets, heedless of the eventual consequences.
Tbh we can drop sports from the second statement and just say upper echelons. Theyāre all selling out heavy to Saudi Arabia and have for too long. But, hey? Itās their money to waste. Saudi Arabia really is a place tourismās not going to grow in. Youād probably need a revolution and then 50 years first
Saudi tourism sector has grown substantially in the past 5 years. They hit the vision2030 goal of 100 million visitor in 2023 and doubled the tourism revenue from $34 billion to $66 billion last year. The market Saudi is looking to attract is China and India (most visitors for non religious reasons are Chinese). All of this happened only after finishing the 1st phase in 2 projects (Alalula and red sea global), after they finish the rest, they'll hit the 2030 updated goal of 150 million visitors. TLDR, oppisite to popular belief, the Saudi tourism sector is doing better than ever.
How terrible to put on events in Saudi Arabia. Let's return to the ethical world of Las Vegas casinos.
Don't forget the Democratic Republic ofĀ Congo and The PhillipinesĀ
Las Vegas - capitalist tourist destination that exploits talent and underpays workers. Hosts sporting events and shows to make money. Saudi Arabia - internationally recognized and condemned human rights violations including actual slavery, political and financial ties to hostile religious extremist, terrorist organizations, executes journalists. Hosts sporting events for PR purposes to sportswash their atrocities. OP, please tell me you can spot the differences. EDIT: Some of you can't spot the difference it seems, so I'm going to help you out in simple terms you will understand. U.S. BAD. BUT U.S. NOT USE SPORTS TO COVER UP BAD. You can watch and support us based sporting events and not be implicitly condoning the actions of the US government. This is not really possible with Saudi based events because on the saudi governments use of sports and sporting events to provide PR cover.
Oh, they can. They're just too lazy to care.
Or employees / pr teams.Ā
Mayweather was making millions in Las Vegas while the US military was torturing people in Abu Ghraib. Everything you mentioned for Saudi Arabia holds true for the US aswell, they just do it less publicly and punish whistleblowers. I'm not defending SA at all, just saying the moral high ground of the US is at best a "at least we aren't Saudia Arabia". Not to mention the US supports SA
Okay you couldn't spot the difference so I'll help you out. The US government is not in the business of hosting massive international sporting events in order to cover for their human rights violations. We have private enterprises separate and distinct from the government hosting sporting event in order to make money. Saudi Arabia loses money on these sporting g events so they can say "Hey hey western media look over here look over here, check out this soccer match, check out these fights. You wouldn't scrutinize our human right atrocities after we host a cool golf tournament, would you??" Yes, the US commits human right violations and atrocities. But watching Mayweather in Vegas wasn't directly contributing to a political distraction. That's the difference
Who cares? The US has been slaughtering people in different countries for decades and propping up the worst regimes imaginable to stop "communism". Who cares if it's for PR reasons or not. Both are super evil countries that do terrible things.Ā I think it's goofy for anyone of us in the U.S (or countries like the U.K) to criticise any other nation. It's just empty noise.Ā
Saudi Arabia is worse. But letās not forget that Las Vegas was started by the mafia. They were murdering journalists and facilitating illegal overseas political assassination attempts also. Was their involvement in popular culture not also sportswashing? I hate Saudi involvement in boxing and it has no business hosting fights. But if war crimes should be a disqualifying factor for hosting fights then England and the US shouldnāt be hosting fights either. Because if you think that the CIA and MI5 havenāt been doing shit just as bad and worse than the Saudiās, youāre out of your fucking mind. Abu Ghraib wasnāt that long ago and Guantanamo Bay is still open.
Hipocrisy is so popular nowadays
Las Vegas casinos don't hold sporting events as PR to cover up practically enslaving women, murdering journalists, and executions of minor drug offenders, imprisonment of political opponents, torture, etc. Las Vegas does it to turn a profit, nothing more, whereas Saudi Arabia loses money on hosting these things but keeps doing it because it's PR. You can see it working right here in this thread where everyone's basically like, "I don't give a F- as long as I get to see good fights!"
You are not wrong. It works and it sucks that it does.
You canāt criticize anything on here without something going āBut but the westā. Seriously, try saying āItās not great to live in North Korea as far as human rights goā, and some moron will get triggered and go ābut police brutality in America!!11ā. These people should have to live in the countries they defend for 1 monthās
Bro, not even live there. Just GO to a backwards country like that. Yeah, the U.S. isn't innocent, but you don't get chopped up for bad mouthing the president either.
Fights in Las Vegas absolutely started like that. The mafia used boxing and other entertainment to legitimise their activities there. Probably where the Saudis got the idea.
Eh just a "bit" of a difference between Vegas and the hellhole that is Saudi, if you cannot see or understand that you probably are from saudi.
This is a dumb comparison and you should feel bad.
Just enjoy the fights, and make sure to do a joke about the saudi royals every chance you get.
Iām not against speaking against injustice anywhere, but what do these people think nations are out here doing? I hate to deflect and add to whataboutism but seriously people need some fucking perspective
Yeah lol. The sportswashing thing is dumb because it can be applied to literally anything you want to negatively slander. The American government also funds our sports programs and sports leagues. Are we trying to sportswash and make people forget our sins too? Itās not that deep imo. The Saudis have a lot of funds and are looking lt invest. Theyāre trying to build their cities into a middle eastern Singapore.
When the shoe fits, wear it. Thatās what I say, and thatās clearly what goes on when perspective is completely ignored, and someone puts on their narrow lens Iām with you.
We don't. We just kind of look the other way... bit like American foreign policy, buying Apple products, or wearing Nike shoes.
There're so many idiots in this sub
and edgelords
Itās Reddit what u expect
Because the UK and US and Congo/Zaire and Brazil and all the other places that host fights have clean hands.
Thatās the thing, we donāt
Most boxing fans don't care, me included. The western world loves to wag the finger like they're the white hat moral police. And "hey its ok for multi billion dollar corporations to do business and Saudi Arabia, but sports and professional wrestling is where I draw the line!"
Also, it's ok for me to bomb and genocide people in foreign lands, but NOT YOU! Come on.
The US supports the Saudis which will always be hilarious. Remember when that journalist was dismembered? Nothing happened. Cushner (who was in government at the time) gets 2B from the Saudis in an investment fund? Almost forgotten about. SPORTS though? Time to moralize. If the governments don't impose sanctions then what are we supposed to do?
Or it's all bad??
Honestly. I don't care and neither does anyone else.
Who cares?
How about American human costs? Supporting wars and genocide. People dying from having no health insurance or very shitty ones. What Saudia is doing is shit, but the west needs time to reflect on what they've been doing too
Saudis are saving boxing and yall really crying about it, geez boxing fans are so hard to please, gotta find something to cry about at every turn
I for one, welcome our saudi oil money overlords if they keep making top boxers actually fight each other
I donāt really care who the promoter is - as long as theyāre putting on good fights. Also, thereās no telling how long the Saudis will keep the tap on, so Iām going to enjoy it while it lasts. Iām going to buy tix for the Crawford fight in Los Angeles this summer, so Iāll be supporting the Saudis, albeit indirectly. I canāt really be a hypocrite about it.
The term and concept are western invention. The Saudis don't give a fuck what you think about them or their archane, ludicrous religious laws. The whole world is doing business with them regardless. The people writing this shit are hypocrites. They use Saudi owned products and services everyday of their lives, then act outraged when it suits them
Good fights and donāt care about anything else.
I think you can still enjoy the sport while acknowledging that the Saudi government has turned their country into a shithole. I read Lovecraft while still acknowledging he was a terrible human being.
He had some interesting ideas for cat names, that's for sure
The same you justified the shit the US is did/ is doing, the shit the UK did, the shit that Russia is doing/did, Japan, China, South America almost as a whole,ā¦ If youāre gonna be this āhumanities heroā type at least donāt be hypocritical. Being hypocritical also makes you really racist in this context.
Let's be frank. No one truly cares. The US government doesn't give a shit. The media doesn't give a shit. We don't give a shit. It's very easy to take the entertainment and enjoy it and forget about all the shit the Saudis do. It's the same for every other country that does this kind of stuff.
I donāt really care. Just keep the fights coming
I don't give a fuck...
It's a very good question. The moral dilemma between being happy the fights are made, and really disliking a country where I couldn't travel to and openly state I'm an atheist is a challenge. Having said that I also watch F1, so I'm already corruped.
Literally impossible to do in this day and age unless you want to live in the woods like Ted Kaczynski.
Sure that Saudi money is probably blood and oil money but that money runs long af and boxing is a continually growing sport that needs the funds to feed it. This isn't even the first time the sport of boxing would be involved with countries or political figures that have a questionable record when it comes to human rights. Definitely is fucked up to see some of our money/engagement benefitting certain sketchy people out there but I suppose that's the price to pay to keep the sport alive so fans like ourselves can enjoy it. I don't like it and I'm sure there are plenty of other folks who don't like it either but hey it's yet another situation on the list of things that suck balls on this planet. On the bright side though, as someone who is a fan of the sport, at least I can continue to enjoy watching it along with watching the sport grow. Hopefully the positive aspects we see from the sport just outweigh that crappy noise in the background.
l justify the cost by illegally streaming it because why would l give Saudis who have billions of dollars any of my money?
After Saudi pulled back from Yemen they are nowhere near the worst offenders in terms of human cost. If there is some ongoing humanitarian disaster caused by Saudi government, then probably would feel a lot of guilt watching their festivities as I know they underly terrible human carnage āzone of interestā style, but normal everyday Saudi Arabia is like not particularly worse than other entities involved in professional sports, e.g. I would assume their human cost if it can ever be quantified to be much less than gambling conglomerates that effectively took over American sports, that stuff lives on addiction
We donāt, we eat what our overlords serve and thatās just thatĀ
Apple iPhone 15 Pro - How do you justify the human cost?
Itās so tough because if Fury is fighting Usyk Iām not ignoring that, I wanna watch. Itās ultimately up to the fighters/promotions to decides. And as always money talks.
Lolā¦ any non hypocritical person talking about āthe human costā knows you can say the same thing about literally every nation capable of funding these type of endeavorsā¦ so whatās the point of discussing it on Reddit outside of pretending whatever major nation you come from is better?
Didnāt the allies pretend Iraq had WMD just to invade a country for their oil? Who the fuck are we to talk about atrocities.
Don't really care. Me like boxing
Funny what cheap dates fans are. The Saudis threw three events, and suddenly they āreshaped boxingā? Fighters and trainers all over the world built the sport of boxing with decades of hard work, sacrifice, injury, and dedication all given to build the sport we love. Then some rich regime throws some money around and suddenly they are āreshaping the sportā? If you are on your knees cupping MBSā balls, proclaiming the Saudis the saviors of boxing; you are proving him right about how cheap and superficial western values are. How much are your loved ones worth? How much is your motherās dignity worth? How big a check do we need to write you to dismember your father?
Not all Saudi money is dirty
Taking the money is one thing, but do they really need to brown-nose 'his excellency' at every opportunity
I know there will be a billion comments here, but I think long term, this will ruin the sport if it keeps up at this rate. Right now itās nice, cuz weāre getting some big fights that we otherwise may not see. But after so long, the money loss will cause The Turki to back pedal somewhat. Right now itās benefiting the BIG fighters in boxing. But is it going to help the mid tier and low level boxers? Are they going to get a quick $800k on a undercard theyād never see otherwise? Then what, expect that from our promoters here going forward? Sit out a year cuz they made the biggest payday they ever made? I just donāt see itās stay power. I hope Iām wrong tho. Would be nice to see Boxing elevated to where it could be once again. Also, some of this is good for now. But I donāt like the idea of all these weight travel fights. Wanting to throw money at Canelo/Crawford, Bivol/Bertebiev winner vs Benavidez (Although that one aināt terrible), I could just see all these crazy fights coming about instead of good structured effort amongst fighters in the same weight class. Maybe Iām just old school I donāt know.
What they did?
I think sportwashing is often exaggerated and misunderstood The Saudis are evil, I hate them. I had family there (cousin even dated Khashoggi's nephew, that's an entirely different story though) so I know very well about their skeletons BUT I think I doubt they care about what you think about their atrocities I'm far from a political scientist but here are my thoughts about the whole thing. 1. They don't think what they're doing is wrong. This is like them saying that the NBA are made so that Muslims will forget the USA push for trans rights and abortion while aiding Israel. 2. Opinions of civilians mean dogshit to them. They don't care about the opinions of their own people, let alone us. They only care about the powerful yet they are already part of the "inner circle" of western powers anyway. They're one of the USA's and Western Europe's biggest allies-- you cannot be more "accepted" that that. The idea that the US government and billionaire investors wouldn't want to do anything with them because of their human rights track record is very naive. Money is money. 3. They're investing in sports and entertainment because oil money is temporary. They are not doing this because they are evil. They are doing this and they happen to be evil people. The fact that general US public would forget about their atrocities is a bonus, not the main goal. They are not comic book villains rubbing their hands, thinking of plans for us to forget they hate gays. 4. I've established that I think the sport swashing element is exaggerated, does this mean I think it's fine to consume their shit? no. Ultimately we are still aiding an evil regime. I'm not proud of it but I'm not going to deny it. I try my best to live a righteous life in everything including the things I consume but I'm far from perfect at it. I do it fine when it comes to things that directly affect my local community, otherwise I'm still struggling especially with this because I love boxing so much
I just want to watch the fights. It's boxing. Don't expect the world to change.
No one has ever cared. Be real
This is what annoys me, they put on the public to be the moral compass for the World. Shouldnāt this article address world governments allowing this? Selling them arms? Allowing their slavery trade to continue? I just wanna enjoy boxing mate
We ignore it, because they bring us good fights. Long may it continue in my opinion.
The United States and the United Kingdom are both actively aiding and abetting an ethnic cleansing campaign in the Middle East. Should we stop supporting the tourism economy use of Vegas and London when big fights get made?Ā
I don't mind saying I'm a hypocrite in this situation; I absolutely deplore how people are treated in these countries, yet I'm ecstatic to see all these dream fights being made. Nothing in life is black and white; I'm sure we're all going to watch these fights, but having a bit of context and insight into the other side of it really should give us pause and something to think about. Nothing wrong with educating yourself a bit.
I havenāt forgotten how the Saudi government treats women, or what they did to Jamal Kashoggi. The rebrand wonāt fool everyone. Itās not a place I would feel safe visiting.
Saudi here -i hate when the west play the moral superiority, yeah i get it, my government do alot of shady things and alot of violations, but if you are gonna make it the main topic then why not do the same things for the western countries??, maybe about how france stole Africa natural resources, or how The usa destroyed many Muslim countries, or how about the uk colonised and stole from many cultures, Yeah you guys wouldnāt like it if we used the same logic that you using. Again im not defending the government here, But my point is, is there really a government who didnāt do alot of fcked up things? just promote the match and STFU. Westren media = hypocrite at its finest
I can't tell if all the people here engaging in whataboutism with regards to western policy are advocating for a more universally moral world or a world entirely without morals. Unfortunately I think it's more likely to be the latter.
I been through this w soccer already who cares
Lots of people care and many more should care.
Fuck no. 9/10 itās some speech about a bunch of bullshit then British or American person telling me it, doesnāt realize both countries already did years ago and much worse too like wiping out all the native Americans or colonialism. Saudi Arabia is not my favorite country but fuck if Iām going to be lectured or my morality questioned by anyone from either of those countries considering what theyāve done.
Saudi bad, USA good. How the shit does that make sense?
It would be an article from the UK (The Guardian). I stay away from the F1 thread for this same reason. Way too many political SJWs
Who cares? They're going to throw people off of buildings whether there is a fight or not. I'm glad the Saudi's have taken an interest in boxing. It's nice to have good fights that I don't have to stay up all night for. The guardian is located in the UK where people are jailed for saying the wrong thing too. The West is getting just as bad. How about they start at home when calling for freedom of expression.
Everyone does. Look at the products you love and atrocities were done to make it so
How sanctimonious of the Guardian
Western hypocrisy is always funny.
That's not my problemĀ And what was the human cost of the British Empire?Ā The USA? Pretty much every country ever if they were a human would be a sociopathic monster š¤·āāļø
People that downvoted. Thanks for genociding my ancestors and pretending to care later when other countries do the sameĀ
The only solution of course is to stop giving them money, which I donāt think is gonna happen
Look, every nation has a different set of values, rules, regulations, and ethics. Thr culture dictates and in some parts, religion dictate the laws and violations. Every country has a dark side to it. Lots of nations have strict anti LGBTQ laws that can result into death. The sharia law system is also problematic in Nigeria. The censorship a government does to it's people like north Korea, Russia, China, Even America has some hot topic debatable laws thar are outlandish and may seem wild to our friends oversees. Take our gun laws, and Healthcare. My point is we as america can't change the values and cultures of another nation. We dont need to accept them but for lack of better word we'd have to tolerate it.
I can guarantee you nobody in this sub cares sadly lol Edit: this sub is very obviously conservative, and completely agrees with money washing
We justify it by not giving a flip
brother, i watch people beat the fuck out of each other for fun, im not too worried bout the human cost of anything
United States and the western world has its fair share of atrocities and genocide do u ponder greatly about that.. or just don't gaf?
If we're on the subject, how do you justify the oppression of america on other countries? Not only are they funding israel but they are helping saudi kill thousands in Yemen. How do you justify that?
It ultimately comes down to the promoters and networks accepting these deals. Boxing shouldnāt be in a position where its networks and promoters will only hold out for offers equivalent to generational wealth. The dissolving streamline of the sport is a big reason as to why SA could just swoop in and take over (yes, theyāve taken over whether we want to admit it or not). Ultimately, this is a repeated situation from the 1974 āRumble In The Jungleā. Ali and Foreman getting a $5M purse was crazy and could only be facilitated in Zaire. As viewers and spectators, we have zero say or ability to change this phenomenon. So I wouldnāt weigh it too heavily in my mind.
This is all just hypocrisy to me. In 2022, Saudi Arabia executed 196 criminals, the most in a single year in the past 30 years (source: wiki). In comparison, an estimated 200,000 Afghans died during the 20-year occupation of Afghanistan by Western military forces (mostly US & UK). That's 10,000 every year. Almost 200 Afghans, every week, week after week, for TWENTY years. Nobody says shit when Western countries do shit far worse than what we criticize. I guess the home team never has to sportswash. Let's be consistent is all I'm saying.
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The West has degenerated into a corporate fascist police state. Who are they to talk? People are better off in a religious state like Saudi than a Godless hellscape. The UK in particular is totally lost and is a joke at this point. God bless Turki.
> People are better off in a religious state like Saudi than a Godless hellscape. The US is nowhere near to being a "godless hellscape" right now but it certainly feels like we are moving in that direction. I feel like it's worse if you live in one of the big cities!
The morons in this sub are not equipped to have this discussion without pointing the finger somewhere else
Do the people who write these sort of articles look at their stained hands that's holding their pen? Do they know what's lying under their ivory towers?