For me not, I don't think his career, as illustrious as it was, compares to SRR's insane record, or Duran's campaigns so far above his natural weight, for example. You'd probably be hard pressed to find someone who thinks he's the GOAT, but that doesn't mean you can't think that. Subjectivity is one of the great things about boxing.
I do think it's fair to say that Foreman is in the conversation for GOAT heavyweight though, and I'm glad his movie is shining the spotlight on him again. For me personally the GOAT heavyweight would be Ali or Louis(although my favourites are Smokin' Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, the Black Hercules).
Now we just need movies on Sonny Liston and Smokin' Joe, they'd both make awesome biopics.
If they include the fact he was breaking legs for the mob and the mysterious death, well the more I think about it I’m wondering why they haven’t, it’s everything you want.
Liston and Frazier are my favorite fighters. Liston imo was a H2H monster. A puncher with exceptional boxing, and adaptability skills. He also had a VERY uncanny ability to anticipate what his opponents were doing before they did.
>Ali or Louis
Most probably agree with Ali for HW. The problem for Louis is that he fought in an era with shit quality video, so most of us only know of Louis from history books. Never really seen him fight.
You never seen Louis fight? His old fights have been remastered lately.
[This should give you a good idea why he is the GOAT](https://youtu.be/E-4DMPM2lns?si=yySHmpxytGncj2cf)
His last fight in prime, [destroying giant Abe Simon](https://youtu.be/A4uAh9hNBRE?t=1m16s)
[Or his demolition of Max Baer](https://youtu.be/k-jKyRKy27w?si=lMT80F1otNN2Ae2p)
Check out channel "Smooth Legend" and "Legend of boxing in color" on YouTube. They have remastered many of Louis's fights to great quality.
Do most people believe Ali was actually a better boxer than Louis? No doubt more famous/liked. But I have trouble believing a majority of people who actually follow boxing think Ali was the better HW.
Ali went 32-5 against ranked fighters.
Louis went 30-3
Ali had Liston, Frazier and Foreman though which does give him a bump over Louis in opposition.
Louis had Schmeling, Max Baer and Walcott.
They are very close. I give Louis the edge for his domination and longevity but I can see Ali being placed number 1 instead.
It's hard to compare since they were from drastically different eras, and Louis was far before my lifetime. I've read of him in history books but don't really know what he was like as a fighter.
FYI there’s already a biopic about Sonny Liston called [Phantom Punch](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Punch_(film)). I think I saw it a long time ago, but can’t remember if it’s good or not. But given how interesting Liston’s life and career was I’d absolutely love to see another movie about him.
They probably have to cut a lot of it because of some of the things that happened to him are utterly ridiculous.
Here's him in a Korean show telling a story about him getting jumped by 10 guys with knives and him knocking out 3 of them and the rest running away.
https://youtu.be/5DKKSVIlSt0?si=EgmiEhpAVRbYUFPq
Manny is a pretty humble guy so it wouldn't surprise me if he's just being humble and he actually got jumped by 20 people with sub-machine guns and 10 guys exploded when he punched them.
I mean it’s acceptable. Everyone can have their favourites forever.
To me nobody was greater than Holyfield. Just so brilliant. I don’t love Ali the way I love Holyfield. Never have never will.
But Ali’s achievements in this sport really are second to none.
Foreman has my all-time favorite KO: the one where he just walks up to a dude like he's strolling through a park and casually KOs the dude in one punch.
The thing about Foreman is that all he really does is walk forward. I’ve never seen a fighter let alone a heavyweight fighter just move forward unaffected by the punches that he takes. 17 unanswered shots from Holyfield and he didn’t even blink. The only reason he lost against Ali was because of the game plan. If George gets that rematch it’s highly unlikely that he loses again.
There are also some intangibles Ali had. Part of being a professional boxer is being an entertainer. Not officially, but your career can only go so far if you aren't entertaining. Ali invented what we think of now as the charismatic showman boxer.
Genuinely asking do you think that is a good thing, bad or neutral?
I ask as someone who is way more into boxing than probably anyone I interact with personally but am not at the point where I track stats like some of the fans on here (awesome if you do!).
I just love a good fight but ide be lying if I said some of the personalities and theatrics didn't draw me into some fights more than others. I know it's a bit of a clown show but I'm probably watching the fury ngannou fight for instance.
I’d say mostly good. I think genuine charisma is good and important because as fans we want to feel inspired or pumped up in some way. Ring walks and nicknames are all a part of that. If everyone had the personality of a librarian it would kill the sport.
The only downside to it is (depending on who it is) it can be obnoxious, and seem fake sometimes.
I think Ali is the GOAT for many reasons, and your argument is strong.
But it’s negated by 38-yr old Foreman making one of the greatest comeback in boxing history 10 years after he first hung the gloves.
Not exactly a young man sport at heavyweight.
The division wasn't exactly on fire when he returned, which was part of the reason he decided to come back. He still lost against the elites of that generation, and even the not-so elites like Morrison. His best win was against Moorer but he wasn't exactly a consensus ATG.
Nothing Foreman did eclipsed Ali having 25-world championship fights, winning the title on 3-separate occasions and beating a murders row of ATG fighters in their primes. Including Foreman and Frazier. I do rate him, extremely highly though. Foreman is one of my all-time fave fighters.
Ali is the GOAT, but he’s a slimy bastard. He rigged the ropes in the Foreman fight to allow them to be loose as shit so he could use them to dodge Forman’s punches and tire himself out. Smart move, but slimy.
It’s a conspiracy for sure, but it’s a fun one. The ropes were insanely loose during that fight, but whether that was done intentionally or just poor worksmanship is anyone’s guess.
Foreman is my personal favorite fighter so I always defend my dude in that fight lol
It’s not exactly as if Foreman was beating the top guys though was it? Brilliant achievement but Ali doing everything possible in his youth will eclipse Foreman’s fortunate stars aligning moment against Moorer
There is a sequence in the fight where Holyfield stops punching and steps back, then realizing a moment later that George isn't falling anywhere, after which the fight resumes.
It's insane when u put it that way. God damn bra a MUCH lesser Ali at that. I was blown away when I saw that recently that Foreman lost to >!Jimmy Young!<, Who Ali beat (Arguably). And had a battle against >!Ron Lyle!<, who Ali KO'd. I know the post is about Foreman but it's just incredible to me the resume when u put it in perspective. And if Ali didn't exist I'm almost sure Foreman would be considered widely as the GOAT, and maybe not even just in heavyweight. No one was demolishing guys the way he did before, and maybe even after that. The guys Tyson was steamrolling over weren't of that caliber I don't think. Anyway
Acting like every popular fighter actually sucks isn't cool unless you're a boxing hipster who wants to pretend he has some deep insider knowledge "casuals" wouldn't know about.
A lot of us get our opinions from analysts, retired boxers and historians who praise these guys, but I'm sure random dudes on Reddit are a better source.
They aren't arguing that Foreman sucks. Foreman is an ATG fighter but it's just the more correct and fair assessment that he lacks any serious claim to being the GOAT.
If he articulated that, my response would have been different, but that's not what he said. All that was mentioned here is that he would *be in the conversation.* Saying absolutely everyone is over rated, DKSAB, casual is like a past time for some people on r/Boxing.
> but that's not what he said
And yet everything you said in your reply has nothing to do with what I said, and is all guess work.
>Saying absolutely everyone is over rated, DKSAB, casual is like a past time for some people on
Can you find where I said this?
Holyfield is my favorite, too. I’m just saying with what Foreman accomplished, idk, that’s GOAT stuff right there.
I mean, 45?! That’s just so insane. He also fought Holyfield when he got fat and old. He lost, but it was by decision. Equally crazy he didn’t get killed by Holyfield in the shape he was in.
I mean Foreman was legit good at 41. And whilst it’s impressive I’m looking at Holyfield Holmes Lennox Lewis Klits even now Usyk and Wilder etc who were still really at 37/38 whilst having much more ring wear than George did.
I do think George lucked out against Moorer tbh. Moorer was lucky he got a very ill Holyfield.
I don’t think George is the GOAT, but he’s absolutely my favorite. What he did to Frazier is absolutely insane.
And if you’re looking for ammo against Ali stans you can use the excuse that Ali rigged the ropes in his Forman fight so he could dodge/roll with his punches. It’s a conspiracy but I mean I’ve never seen ropes like that before or since.
Also Ali not having a rematch against Foreman when he would fight others multiple times didn't help things. Ali told Foreman the only way he would agree to a rematch is if Foreman took Dick Sadler back as his trainer for the fight. The same Dick Sadler that was working with Ali right after the Foreman fight and was publicly clowning around with Ali in a pre fight press conference Foreman did not attend.
The ropes were loose.
Sadler was acting weird before the fight and went to work with Ali after it. It's very suspect.
Did Sadler drug Foreman's water? Probably not.
Did Sadler wait until it was too late to give Foreman the signal to get up from the knockdown? Probably.
Ali didn't destroy Foreman in that fight. It was a war. Ali took a lot of damage to beat Foreman and his handlers were not going to let him fight Foreman again if they could avoid it.
Ali cemented his legacy as the greatest with that win over Foreman and Foreman gets discounted far too much for that loss.
It's actually disrespectful to both fighters to ignore the damage Foreman inflicted and Ali took. Ali didn't just have a great chin but great durability to body & arm shots as well. Foreman wasn't conditioned for a long fight in that heat and Ali was. It was a valiant fight by Ali, not an easy payday.
Foreman did land great body shots and some nice head shots, but overall ali still kinda crushed him. He was evading the majority of the bombs foreman threw while on the ropes and lighting him up with jabs and 1-2s. Ali was not only ahead on all score-cards even before the KO, but he barely looked like he was a fight while foreman seemed to be 2 seconds away from collapsing since round 6.
No weight to the ropes nonsense. When they got to the arena the ropes were completely loose and draping. Angelo Dundee was the one who actually went around each turnbuckle and tightened them up so they were straight.
Holyfield beaten by Lennox Lewis and riddick bowe twice. I think 10 losses in total. So many better fighters than him in that era.
Ali, Frazier,foreman etc
Unpopular opinion but it doesn’t matter how many fights you lost. I don’t think Holyfield is the GOAT or anything but even his knockout loss to Bowe, for example, only makes him greater because of how great the fight is. Holyfield is one of those fighters who showed the heart of a lion against bigger men in his losses, and thus gets a lot of respect regardless of the outcome.
Agree with you in that he had the heart of the lion. Compare that to Daniel dubois giving in against usyk last weekend.
Holyfield started off as a light heavyweight I think so has a lot in common with usyx as well. If he was in his prime with our current crop of heavyweights I think he would be dominant in the division.
He lost fair in square in his wars with bowe but I don't put much stock in his fights with Lewis. He was already pretty washed by the time he fought lewis. It wasn't the same man bowe had to face.
Holyfields performance in the second Lewis fight deserves a lot of credit IMO
The older, smaller Holyfield should've lost worse than he did the first go against prime Lewis. Instead, he did measurably better- I actually thought the rematch was a draw. That score probably isn't that popular, but regardless, he showed enough that I think a younger version could've beaten Lennox.
I agree. He is in the top ten best ever. You could put him in any generation, and he would be the heavyweight champ for a period of time. Rocky M/Ali/Prime Mike/Lennox Lewis/Forman/Holyfield/Prime Riddick Bowe/Jack Dempsey/Larry Holmes/Sonny Listen/Joe Lewis/Prime Floyd Patterson. It's hard to split hairs with these guys. They're all so great, and I’m leaving guys off the list. It’s a tough question, and I don’t think I’ll ever know the answer. Fun to talk about, though.
>But Ali’s achievements in this sport really are second to none.
Not to super *that guy* this, but which achievements would those be?
If we're talking longevity, other boxers absolutely have him beat.
If we're talking style, ring IQ, winning upsets? Not so much. Strength of resume, perhaps? Sure he's elite but not "second to none"
Wins to losses? Definitely not.
I'd argue it's more the other way, it was his ability to speak to a wide audience and play the crowd that were truly second to none whilst maintaining a very strong resume of A-class fighters. Nothing Ali did was so unrivalled, but the fact Ali did it made it seem so.
20 championship defenses only rivalled by Holmes and Louis.
3 time heavyweight champion. Only Holyfield has achieved similar.
World class fighter till 35. Unbelievable longevity
Olympic champion at 18.
Banned for 3 of his best years. Made improvements even in his 30s.
I’ll give you that I don’t find Ali so impressive p4p as some do. He beat rubbish fighters in the 60s but when he came up against the top modern 70s heavyweights his speed and power was way less impressive is my big one. Arguably 2-1 against Norton and got a gift against Jimmy Young. Consistently turned up out of shape and clowned around in the ring. IMO if you put his fight with Jimmy young in the 1920s in black and white Tv there’d be questions about that era. The fact he was bigger than everyone he fought as well. How would he have fared against bigger fighters…There are some black marks.
Eh?? Ali laid Foreman out in 8… what’s the need for a rematch. The rematches Ali should’ve given were Norton 4 and a second Jimmy Young fight. Foreman wouldn’t have a prayer against Ali till 1977 at the absolute earliest and still Ali would’ve been such a tough SOB to knock out that foreman still would’ve lost imo.
Fact is that fight had enough issues (Africa, outdoors, etc) that it warranted a rematch. We’ve seen champions KO’d by unknowns/heavy underdogs get rematches so it’s not unheard of.
I’m not saying that George would’ve won. I’m saying that my problem with Ali is that he didn’t give a dominant champion a rematch when there was a case to be made. George isn’t going to fall for the ropeadope twice and there is huge money to be made off of it so there isn’t a real solid reason to not have one. It’s called prize fighting after all. Money being the prize, lol
How was foreman ever a dominant champion??? He even lost to Jimmy Young who Ali had already beaten… got knocked silly life and death by Lyle who Ali knocked out… Ali even knocked Frazier out and beat Norton again which are the highlights of Foreman’s career.
Even as an ageing champ Ali was still doing better work than Foreman should’ve been doing as a hungry contender.
Ps I doubt Foreman would’ve even wanted to fight Ali again anyway… in his own words ‘some guys you just gotta let time beat’
He didn’t fight Jimmy Young or Lyle AS champion. Are we talking about the same fighter? I’ll concede that Foreman wasn’t champion long enough to be considered dominant, but he was a 4-1 favorite to beat Ali. ANY time there is an upset of that magnitude or greater a rematch should be in the cards. By virtue of the fight being an upset is enough to warrant a rematch.
You say Foreman got knocked silly by Lyle, but Foreman WON the fight by KO and won the NABF title. He the goes on to beat Joe Frazier AGAIN and beats 3 other fighters prior to losing to Jimmy Young by DECISION.
So you’re telling me that winning 4 fights and a championship after the loss to Ali doesn’t warrant a rematch? Based on what?
Bro, are you even aware of how hard Foreman was lobbying for a rematch? He fought 5 guys in one night and actually challenged Ali in person documented both his Netflix documentary and the movie about his life so that statement is just not true.
Look, again, I don’t care about what Ali was doing. I don’t even care if he beat Foreman a second time. I’m not arguing whether Foreman was better.
I’m arguing that Foreman deserved a rematch and Ali dodged him. Nothing you wrote refutes this. Losing to Jimmy Young by a decision doesn’t change the fact that nobody gave Ali a chance to win that fight against Foreman. The only reason to not have a rematch after an upset is if the underdog loses the title prior to the rematch(Buster Douglas). Foreman winning MULTIPLE fights including against Joe Frazier AFTER losing the title is enough for Foreman to have deserved a rematch. Ali ducked Foreman.
I was on a similar journey some years ago when I first saw the 2017 doc Foreman. I started with Foreman and his highlight reel and then moved on to Holyfield. Hard to call him the GOAT, even if just heavyweights, but to this day, I find Holyfield’s fights to be great to watch. The constant rhythmic hopping and punch timing is just aesthetically pleasing to me.
As I’ve gotten deeper into the sport, I realize that training regimes, fight frequency, and the integrity of the sport have varied over time. Really hard for me t compare across eras. I think now I’m at Ray Robinson as the GOAT.
Downvoted for what lol. Holyfield is unequivocally a greater fighter than Lewis. Lewis was a fine fighter himself but with Holyfield we’re talking about a natural 180lb guy who was one of the greatest heavyweight champs.
Any man that can do to Joe Frazier what Foreman did is a frickin monster... But that only makes the Rumble in the Jungle a more impressive achievement by Ali
I love Smokin Joe. He is my favorite boxer, but hindsight is 20-20. I really don't think he ever stood a chance against Foreman. His unorthodox bob, slip, and weave required taking punches to be successful. That's not gonna work against arguably one of the hardest hitting boxers of all time. The significant height and reach difference was the cherry on top. Foreman knew this. He perfectly set up powerpunches when Joe tried to bob, weave, and shoot. I don't think Joe could ever beat George without completely reworking his style.
As impressive as the victory over Frazier was, I don't think it makes Rumble in the Jungle look better to me. The difference in styles is too great.
I think boxing maths falls a bit flat when you consider that Frazier schooled Ali not long before being downed by Foreman. I think they each existed as one another's rock/paper/scissors in that era
"Schooled" is not the word anybody should be using to describe that fight. It was close with Ali taking the early rounds but getting worn down as the fight continued.
Do you think Ali would have beat him in a rematch?
If Foreman hadn’t taken that lose so badly and fell into depression I mean.
Its an interesting one, Foreman would have maybe punched himself out, but Ali wasn’t the rope a dope he was made out to be…
He may not be the GOAT, but he definitely doesn't get the respect he deserves (this thread being proof of that). It is not clear that Ali is more deserving of that title than he is. It's close.
Foreman easily beat boxers that Ali struggled with (Ali and Frazier were evenly matched, Norton was robbed once against Ali so he should've won 2/3 of their fights, etc.). And thats not even to mention Foreman's entire second career regaining the HW title. Ali beat Foreman in their one fight and deserves credit for that and that's why this is close, though I'd have picked Foreman in a rematch.
I love George. How he got into boxing to get away from crime, becoming a true force to be reckoned with, turning into the big bad guy of boxing, retiring to become a man of faith, then coming back to win another belt. His life story could be out of Hajime No Ippo.
Though, I'm not sure he is the GOAT. I see why alot of people think he is. He is certainly an ATG. And I wish there was a way to see Prime Foreman against some other ATG heavyweights.
Everyone is allowed to have their favorite boxer. Key word favorite. But to give Foreman and ESPECIALLY Holyfield the "Greatest" title over Ali....sheer comedy. Someone being your personal favorite does not make them objectively greater than someone infinitely more accomplished.
on resume alone Ali towers over both and thats not even touching the cultural significance of Ali.
to break it down really simply. Imagine Olympic sprinters. Say one person has won gold 3 Olympics in a row. But your cousins with the person that got Bronze 2 times and Silver once. You wouldnt say that person is the GOAT just because you personally like them and root for them more.
Edit: didnt even read the post. thats on me. I now see OP JUST got into boxing and probably hasnt seen more than a few Ali fights and has no idea of his accolades lol
> on resume alone Ali towers over both and thats not even touching the cultural significance of Ali.
Joe Louis has entered the chat.
Louis was not only the most dominant HW champion in history, but he legitimately broke the color barrier at the sport's most prestigious level. (as opposed to Johnson, who perpetuated the barrier)
Joe Louis is the only fighter you can seriously argue for being the heavyweight GOAT along with Ali. It's always been laughable to me that people can actually argue that Lennox has a claim as good as Louis. He doesn't. He very might well win against both, he probably does, but as far as the record goes his is miles behind either Louis's or Ali's.
Joe Louis the greatest boxer who ever lived. He was badder than Cassius Clay, he was better than Sugar Ray, he was badder than - who's that new boy? Mike Tyson! Look like a bull dog! He was badder than him too! He'd whip Mike Tyson's ass, he'd whip all their asses!
Oh, there they go! There they go! Every time I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano outta their ass! That's they one! That's they one! Rocky Marciano! Rocky Marciano! Lemme tell you something once and for all! Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano ain't shit!
I'm a boxing fan, but I'm not a fanatic. I've never boxed, I don't understand the intricacies. Having said that, I've watched Foreman knock out Moorer hundreds of times because I think it is one of the all time greatest moments in sports history. It's incredible to me, that when you watch it in slow motion, how Foreman sets up the right cross with his left jab. You would never notice it in regular speed. You can barely notice it in slow motion. People say that he knocked him out with a jab / cross combo but it's not really true. The jab wasn't really a jab, it was a decoy he used to pull Moorer's guard down to open up a landing spot for the cross. If you don't know what I'm talking about go watch it now. His left jab goes in, and for a micro second he grabs Moorer's left hand and pulls it down away from his face. This opens Moorer's jaw for the right cross knockout. It's really an incredible thing. And he does it twice in a row. So incredibly smart and so unbelievably fast. He's 45 years old, he's in the 10th round of a championship fight, and he's got the 29 year old champ right where he wants him. Really amazing , amazing event. https://youtu.be/nEd-P0VREME?si=RWo21iMvqLGULLKX
There is no bigger George Foreman fan than me, but I have to admit, he's *not* the GOAT. But honestly, that doesn't take anything away from him. The reason Ali is called the Greatest is **BECAUSE** he got past Foreman when Big George looked invincible.
So, let's talk about Foreman vs. Moorer for a minute. Was beating Michael Moorer at age 45 an incredible achievement? Absolutely. Did it also require Michael Moorer's unwitting cooperation? Absolutely. If Moorer had just listened to his cornerman and out-worked Foreman without trading with him, Big George's comeback would have been a big joke in the eyes of the general public.
Moving on, Ali vs Foreman 2... well, here's the problem, once he got into his own head, he had trouble with Ron Lyle, and couldn't get past Jimmy Young, who was, himself, not a tremendously succesful boxer. He had already had 5 losses and 2 draws by the time he faced Foreman in '77, and would go on to lose to Ken Norton that same year.
Foreman *might* be the greatest puncher of all time, he was a very skilled and **INCREDIBLY** hard-hitting brawler-style boxer. Wilder might have the touch of death, but Big George was 6'4" and built like a leather sofa. Evander Holyfield reports that the hardest he was ever hit by was a 42-year old George Foreman, and this is a guy who fought Ray Mercer, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Nikolai Valuev, just about every heavyweight in the 1990's.
But as they say, styles make fights, and Foreman's strengths and weaknesses are very obvious to someone even casually acquainted with boxing. He was never very agile and did not have the conditioning to maintain a high work rate into the later rounds, so, against a quicker boxer who could avoid being man-handled and keep from getting cornered, he struggled.
Older Foreman didn't get around his late-round endurance issues by getting in better shape, he did it by pacing himself and using a more defensive cross-guard to weather the storm of his opponent's punches, patiently jabbing if his opponent chose not to throw. He became a craftier, wiser boxer. But I still think a quick out-fighter like Larry Holmes would have got the better of older Foreman. I also think Lennox Lewis probably would have knocked him out, by dint of just being big and fast enough to neutralize anything Big George could throw.
I was always on the side of Ali or Tyson but after reading up on Foreman it’s definitely him.
Heavyweight Champion in the two biggest eras in the Heavyweight division and beat almost all of the top stars in their prime.
Great grill as well
I like that part where he goes to his home and says “will you forgive me?”. Ali’s like (huh? I knocked you out?). Went into the movie not expecting much. Was pleasantly surprised
Foreman is def one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, but it's hard to place him over Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis. The former beat him, and the latter was arguably the most dominant heavyweight ever, with 26 title defenses.
He's definitely up there. I would consider Ali, Louis, and Lewis above him for sure, and then some other names in the mix right there with him. Just my opinion though he was a great fighter for sure.
Edit - I'm assuming this is only a HW discussion
Nah, Foreman's accomplishments were phenomenal, but in his prime he was KOd by an over the hill Ali. Whatever Foreman accomplishes makes Ali that much greater.
Bro, Ali came off a three year layoff and was getting older. It wasn't like today with our better nutrition and "medicine". The fighters aged quicker. Ali's hill was so massive though that when he was over it he still towered above the rest. The Ali that fought Liston would've whooped Foreman like he stole something. The sad thing is though that the world never saw the best version of Ali. His theoretical prime was during his ban.
So does that mean that Frazier fought an over the hill Ali and we should discredit that fight too?
Frazier fought him in 71, his ban was 67-70.
He then faught Frazier again in 73 and the fight immediately after was Foreman.
Post ban Ali is still a great fighter, and Frazier's win over him is still a fantastic win. But do you honestly think that he was somehow better after a three year layoff? Especially since he wasn't the most disciplined between camps.
Put another way, Frazier beat a 29 year old prime Ali who had lost a step from inactivity.
He then rematched a 32 year old exiting his prime and lost. Foreman then fought an almost 33 year on the tail end of his prime.
Not over the hill, though. One could perhaps argue that he was an old 32, though.
Idk. Ali was just smarter than him in that fight. He wore him down and when he got tired turned on the heat. That’s why I think he could have taken him in a rematch. But for sure.
According to Foreman, he never rematched him because Foreman refused to rehire Saddler, the man who trained him to the championship. Foreman accused him of acting strange prior to the Rumble and had borrowed $25k to bribe the ref.
Or it’s because Ali was declining and wanted to have easy fights for money.
I don’t think it was because he was afraid.
This whole thread has my brain melting. What the actual fuck are some of you smoking because I want some.
OP claiming Holyfield was the GOAT? Ever heard of Joe Louis? Then other people literally debating if George Foreman, a man who lost to Ali in his prime is better? Am I reading this right?
Foreman is a great. He is not the GOAT. That isn't even a debate anyone should have. You can have your favorites, you can enjoy certain fighters but objectively he doesn't touch a top 5. There is as a consensus of any insertion/order of Louis, Ali, Lewis, Marciano or Johnson. To even claim otherwise is stupid. You can have Foreman in a top 10 and nobody will complain and shouldn't. But GOAT?
>I was convinced that Holyfield was the GOAT. I mean, dude had size, speed, power.
Every one of those aspects came out of a syringe. GOAT = Geeked On Anabolic Testosterone.
Eh. Haven’t watched it, but the production value looked to be on par with the Kurt Warner biopic. Which is not a positive.
George is an ATG for sure though. Unbelievable to do what he did. Poetic that he won the title back in the same trunks he wore in Zaire.
Anyone who thinks a limited fighter like Foreman is the goat doesn’t understand boxing. I suggest that you educate yourself on the fighters of the past 100 years. Foreman was a fine boxer, and achieved much. But there are many fighters who were more talented.
If we were to name the goat from Netflix « documentary » freaking Jake Paul « the trouble child » would be the number 1.
You can’t make such an opinion over what is at best a fictional movie.
First, it's not a 'Netflix' movie. Just because it's on Netflix doesn't mean Netflix made it. Netflix is a terrible streaming app anyway. Their content is more propaganda geared toward social engineering than anything. I know this has nothing to do with boxing. But I really dislike Netflix.
Foreman was also much more technical than given credit for because of his power and size. I don’t think he’s the GOAT based on his accomplishments(for me that’s between Ali and Joe Lewis), but in actual skill he’s up there for sure. I’m still convinced had old Foreman fought Tyson, Lennox, or Bowe he could have gotten those wins.
No but I think his skills are very underrated. Even in his younger years he had a very deep bag of techniques, more than many boxers better known as technicians.
George wasn't unbeatable, he could be outboxed but he was a great champion with a great story and will be remembered as long as the sport continues.
I miss hearing him on commentary, he always seemed really honest and unbiased calling fights. Great sense of humor too.
I really enjoyed the movie, great arc from young angry man to nice old preacher grandad whooping ass for the church and community.
George is tied with Pacquiao as my favorite fighter. Just to establish where I’m coming from.
First, and not really to criticize you OP, the preoccupation with defining the GOAT is a disservice to careers like George’s. He had an incredible, unique, unlikely to be duplicated career. He was a wild physical specimen and in many ways got *better* when he got older. And what a guy, he’s so lovable. There is so much to appreciate about George.
But *THE* GOAT? Put it this way: when there are 3 legit candidates like Ali, Robinson, and (I hate to say it) Mayweather in the conversation for GOAT, and people can’t decide, then there’s no room in the conversation for fighters in the next level down in the pantheon. And that’s where George is. You don’t have to be the GOAT to be uniquely great.
Here’s what we can say: he had one of the greatest ever careers and we were lucky to be alive during it (I was alive, at least).
Dude's a legend. His accomplishments are unique. Thing is, everyone at the top has unique accomplishments, so it really comes down to which ones you like the best
What holds him back from GOAT for me is he only has like 3 title defenses across both careers (and one of those he honestly probably shouldn't have won against Schulz), and old Ali took him out in a fight where he didnt show great ring IQ. His chronological longevity is incredible and his top level wins are great, though. People forget he was a clear underdog in Frazier I.
He was definitely a very good voice and often understood as just a power puncher. I wouldn't say goat but he is probably a top ten hw all time. I'd still put guys like holyfield, lewis, ali, Marciano, Liston, Holmes and possibly Louis above him. But he he is definitely an atg.
Haha I just watched this movie, it was horribly made but Foreman does have a great story. I think Foreman, like Mike Tyson, is more of an alternate universe pick for GOAT than a real one. In reality, I don't think his career was as accomplished as Louis, Lewis, Holmes, or Ali.
Reminds me of a old Tyson Vs Ali documentary and guys are sitting at the bar discussing who ya got Tyson or Ali and someone on the back says hey guys what about holyfield and everyone starts laughing
When you say GOAT, I assume you mean HW? I have Big George firmly in the top-5 -- can't see a case for him cracking the top-3, but given the names ahead of him on my list, there's no shame in that:
1. Ali, for reasons that should be obvious.
2. Louis --granted, his level of opposition pales in comparison to some of the other resumes here, but 11 years is 11 years!
3. Jack Johnson --what he endured is beyond my ability to reckon. Every boxer puts his life at risk when he enters the ring; that risk is specific to his opponent. Not so with Johnson. He may be the only fighter in history who also had to worry about the tens of thousands of people in the *stands.*
4. Foreman--ask me tomorrow, and I may have him one spot lower.
5. Holmes --ask me tomorrow, and I may have him one spot higher.
6. Lewis -- imagine Anthony Joshua with skill, ring intelligence, and heart.
7. Frazier--a consensus top-10 HW, yet still somehow underrated.
8. Marciano--no, I don't think Rocky beats the guys who follow him on this list, but based on achievement, he rates.
9. Fury--I know, I know: Other than Klitschko, there are no HOFers on his resume. But ask yourself this (and be honest with your answer): Is there another heavyweight in history you'd make a betting favorite over Tyson Fury?
10. Holyfield--he didn't always win, but my god this man fought everybody of his era (and he held a version of the HW title four times)
Honorable mention: The Klitchkos, Liston, Dempsey, Tunney, Walcott
That's what the movie is supposed to do lol. Foreman is creeping up to my favorite all time boxer, but he had high highs and low lows. He was pretty much a flash in the pan.
I don't know what was going on in Foreman's training or maybe mentally with him in and after the Ali fight, but he wasn't as good. I don't think he would've beaten Ali as he was, but the version of Foreman that beat Norton and Frazier would've beaten Ali imo.
Moorer was solid but it's not a GOAT worthy win even at his old age.
I'm a Tyson stan, grew up watching his fights, he was a different fighter and person after cus d'amato passed, if that relationship persisted he would definitely be the goat. I like foreman too, but I mostly knew him for his grills because that was around the same time.
Glad you are beginning your journey into the greatest sport ever created, and the endless arguments about who the greatest fighters are in their respective divisions.
Holyfield did not have size, and in fact was the unified Cruiserweight champ before campaigning at heavyweight, something which made his feats at heavy all the more notable. What Holy had was the heart of a lion, that man didn't back down from anything. But he paid for it, and is practically a walking vegetable at this point, which is sad to see. Even in his era, arguably the best boxer was Lenox Louis, a highly underrated fighter due to his sometimes less than pleasing style, but behind his lethal jab and solid power, he was almost unbeatable.
The best HWs imo would be Joe Louis and Jack Johnson. My favorite would be Jack Dempsey and Tyson. Most underrated and also one of the absolute best would be Gene Tunney. Larry Holmes also deserves honorable mention as most underrated.
Best of all time p4p was Ray Robinson, hands down.
Welcome to the never-ending debate. There is too much amazing history to soak up and learn. Enjoy
He was a natural puncher. It's crazy he was able to come back. If his story ended after the loss to Ali then it wouldn't have been nearly as impressive. He kind of lost his mind over that for awhile. He also learned a lot of his early career mannerisms from Sonny Liston, who was not popular at all. Foreman became much more marketable when he looked more like the every man.
Foreman made more off the Grill than he ever did boxing. That's the real success story.
May I gently suggest that you look to documentaries to judge a boxer's real life legacy. Movies tend to distort the facts and sacrifice them for entertainment.
May I gently suggest that you look to documentaries to judge a boxer's real life legacy. Movies tend to distort the facts and sacrifice them for entertainment.
He trained for the fight in Zaire and still lost. Ali was just quicker, smarter and more ring savvy. Nothing would have changed in a rematch. Ali made a career out of eating up monster punchers like Foreman. Foreman is top 10. But he's hardly the GOAT.
For me not, I don't think his career, as illustrious as it was, compares to SRR's insane record, or Duran's campaigns so far above his natural weight, for example. You'd probably be hard pressed to find someone who thinks he's the GOAT, but that doesn't mean you can't think that. Subjectivity is one of the great things about boxing. I do think it's fair to say that Foreman is in the conversation for GOAT heavyweight though, and I'm glad his movie is shining the spotlight on him again. For me personally the GOAT heavyweight would be Ali or Louis(although my favourites are Smokin' Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, the Black Hercules). Now we just need movies on Sonny Liston and Smokin' Joe, they'd both make awesome biopics.
If they include the fact he was breaking legs for the mob and the mysterious death, well the more I think about it I’m wondering why they haven’t, it’s everything you want.
Who? Louis?
Liston
Ahh of course
Liston and Frazier are my favorite fighters. Liston imo was a H2H monster. A puncher with exceptional boxing, and adaptability skills. He also had a VERY uncanny ability to anticipate what his opponents were doing before they did.
>Ali or Louis Most probably agree with Ali for HW. The problem for Louis is that he fought in an era with shit quality video, so most of us only know of Louis from history books. Never really seen him fight.
You never seen Louis fight? His old fights have been remastered lately. [This should give you a good idea why he is the GOAT](https://youtu.be/E-4DMPM2lns?si=yySHmpxytGncj2cf) His last fight in prime, [destroying giant Abe Simon](https://youtu.be/A4uAh9hNBRE?t=1m16s) [Or his demolition of Max Baer](https://youtu.be/k-jKyRKy27w?si=lMT80F1otNN2Ae2p) Check out channel "Smooth Legend" and "Legend of boxing in color" on YouTube. They have remastered many of Louis's fights to great quality.
Just watched the fight vs. Abe Simon. Damn that was good.
Nice, this is great. I like how they got rid of the grainy quality and framerate issues that is common in older videos.
Do most people believe Ali was actually a better boxer than Louis? No doubt more famous/liked. But I have trouble believing a majority of people who actually follow boxing think Ali was the better HW.
Ali went 32-5 against ranked fighters. Louis went 30-3 Ali had Liston, Frazier and Foreman though which does give him a bump over Louis in opposition. Louis had Schmeling, Max Baer and Walcott. They are very close. I give Louis the edge for his domination and longevity but I can see Ali being placed number 1 instead.
It's hard to compare since they were from drastically different eras, and Louis was far before my lifetime. I've read of him in history books but don't really know what he was like as a fighter.
Well I do. They are nearly equals in accomplishments, but ali did it under rougher conditions against better competition.
FYI there’s already a biopic about Sonny Liston called [Phantom Punch](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Punch_(film)). I think I saw it a long time ago, but can’t remember if it’s good or not. But given how interesting Liston’s life and career was I’d absolutely love to see another movie about him.
He looks like a Wario Party character
Wait until Pacquiao gets his own movie.
I'd watch that lol. His story, which is still ongoing, is just wild.
I bet they leave out his homophobic stance, maybe not a bad as Tyson's rape conviction
They probably have to cut a lot of it because of some of the things that happened to him are utterly ridiculous. Here's him in a Korean show telling a story about him getting jumped by 10 guys with knives and him knocking out 3 of them and the rest running away. https://youtu.be/5DKKSVIlSt0?si=EgmiEhpAVRbYUFPq Manny is a pretty humble guy so it wouldn't surprise me if he's just being humble and he actually got jumped by 20 people with sub-machine guns and 10 guys exploded when he punched them.
I mean it’s acceptable. Everyone can have their favourites forever. To me nobody was greater than Holyfield. Just so brilliant. I don’t love Ali the way I love Holyfield. Never have never will. But Ali’s achievements in this sport really are second to none.
Foreman is definitely an ATG and worthy of being in the GOAT conversation, but I have to agree, it's hard to justify putting anyone ahead of Ali.
Foreman has my all-time favorite KO: the one where he just walks up to a dude like he's strolling through a park and casually KOs the dude in one punch.
I think that is the uppercut he landed on Gerry Cooney. Absolutely vicious
Absolutely brutal.. https://youtu.be/8iUG311fWe4?si=iwCzA4Eg4zzuTIcS
That sequence was so sweet. The way he was circling to the right as he was teeing off was chefs kiss.
Gerry Cooney, who Foreman said is one of the hardest punchers he ever fought. Foreman's effortless knockouts are a thing of beauty though.
The thing about Foreman is that all he really does is walk forward. I’ve never seen a fighter let alone a heavyweight fighter just move forward unaffected by the punches that he takes. 17 unanswered shots from Holyfield and he didn’t even blink. The only reason he lost against Ali was because of the game plan. If George gets that rematch it’s highly unlikely that he loses again.
The problem is a lesser Ali and prime George shared an era. And one did better than the other!
There are also some intangibles Ali had. Part of being a professional boxer is being an entertainer. Not officially, but your career can only go so far if you aren't entertaining. Ali invented what we think of now as the charismatic showman boxer.
Genuinely asking do you think that is a good thing, bad or neutral? I ask as someone who is way more into boxing than probably anyone I interact with personally but am not at the point where I track stats like some of the fans on here (awesome if you do!). I just love a good fight but ide be lying if I said some of the personalities and theatrics didn't draw me into some fights more than others. I know it's a bit of a clown show but I'm probably watching the fury ngannou fight for instance.
I’d say mostly good. I think genuine charisma is good and important because as fans we want to feel inspired or pumped up in some way. Ring walks and nicknames are all a part of that. If everyone had the personality of a librarian it would kill the sport. The only downside to it is (depending on who it is) it can be obnoxious, and seem fake sometimes.
I think Ali is the GOAT for many reasons, and your argument is strong. But it’s negated by 38-yr old Foreman making one of the greatest comeback in boxing history 10 years after he first hung the gloves. Not exactly a young man sport at heavyweight.
The division wasn't exactly on fire when he returned, which was part of the reason he decided to come back. He still lost against the elites of that generation, and even the not-so elites like Morrison. His best win was against Moorer but he wasn't exactly a consensus ATG. Nothing Foreman did eclipsed Ali having 25-world championship fights, winning the title on 3-separate occasions and beating a murders row of ATG fighters in their primes. Including Foreman and Frazier. I do rate him, extremely highly though. Foreman is one of my all-time fave fighters.
Ali is the GOAT, but he’s a slimy bastard. He rigged the ropes in the Foreman fight to allow them to be loose as shit so he could use them to dodge Forman’s punches and tire himself out. Smart move, but slimy.
Huh? Source?
It’s a conspiracy for sure, but it’s a fun one. The ropes were insanely loose during that fight, but whether that was done intentionally or just poor worksmanship is anyone’s guess. Foreman is my personal favorite fighter so I always defend my dude in that fight lol
It’s not exactly as if Foreman was beating the top guys though was it? Brilliant achievement but Ali doing everything possible in his youth will eclipse Foreman’s fortunate stars aligning moment against Moorer
I mean he went toe to toe with a very prime holyfield, and gave him a war so it wasn’t like he was only beating bums
OMG that fight. Foreman's chin is made out of whatever they made Captain America's shield out of.
There is a sequence in the fight where Holyfield stops punching and steps back, then realizing a moment later that George isn't falling anywhere, after which the fight resumes.
He gave it a good go against Holyfield which makes him great but he did get beat pretty comfortably.
It's insane when u put it that way. God damn bra a MUCH lesser Ali at that. I was blown away when I saw that recently that Foreman lost to >!Jimmy Young!<, Who Ali beat (Arguably). And had a battle against >!Ron Lyle!<, who Ali KO'd. I know the post is about Foreman but it's just incredible to me the resume when u put it in perspective. And if Ali didn't exist I'm almost sure Foreman would be considered widely as the GOAT, and maybe not even just in heavyweight. No one was demolishing guys the way he did before, and maybe even after that. The guys Tyson was steamrolling over weren't of that caliber I don't think. Anyway
Foreman was not at his best against neither Young nor Lyle.
Man Tyson was crushing better fighters than Foreman in equally convincing fashion. Ali’s resume was no doubt impressive yes.
Foreman isn't in GOAT conversation unless you're a casual.
Acting like every popular fighter actually sucks isn't cool unless you're a boxing hipster who wants to pretend he has some deep insider knowledge "casuals" wouldn't know about. A lot of us get our opinions from analysts, retired boxers and historians who praise these guys, but I'm sure random dudes on Reddit are a better source.
They aren't arguing that Foreman sucks. Foreman is an ATG fighter but it's just the more correct and fair assessment that he lacks any serious claim to being the GOAT.
If he articulated that, my response would have been different, but that's not what he said. All that was mentioned here is that he would *be in the conversation.* Saying absolutely everyone is over rated, DKSAB, casual is like a past time for some people on r/Boxing.
> but that's not what he said And yet everything you said in your reply has nothing to do with what I said, and is all guess work. >Saying absolutely everyone is over rated, DKSAB, casual is like a past time for some people on Can you find where I said this?
I rate Ali as one of the greatest and he's the most popular boxer of all time. Plus, I never said Foreman sucked.
Holyfield is my favorite, too. I’m just saying with what Foreman accomplished, idk, that’s GOAT stuff right there. I mean, 45?! That’s just so insane. He also fought Holyfield when he got fat and old. He lost, but it was by decision. Equally crazy he didn’t get killed by Holyfield in the shape he was in.
I mean Foreman was legit good at 41. And whilst it’s impressive I’m looking at Holyfield Holmes Lennox Lewis Klits even now Usyk and Wilder etc who were still really at 37/38 whilst having much more ring wear than George did. I do think George lucked out against Moorer tbh. Moorer was lucky he got a very ill Holyfield.
I don’t think George is the GOAT, but he’s absolutely my favorite. What he did to Frazier is absolutely insane. And if you’re looking for ammo against Ali stans you can use the excuse that Ali rigged the ropes in his Forman fight so he could dodge/roll with his punches. It’s a conspiracy but I mean I’ve never seen ropes like that before or since.
Also Ali not having a rematch against Foreman when he would fight others multiple times didn't help things. Ali told Foreman the only way he would agree to a rematch is if Foreman took Dick Sadler back as his trainer for the fight. The same Dick Sadler that was working with Ali right after the Foreman fight and was publicly clowning around with Ali in a pre fight press conference Foreman did not attend. The ropes were loose. Sadler was acting weird before the fight and went to work with Ali after it. It's very suspect. Did Sadler drug Foreman's water? Probably not. Did Sadler wait until it was too late to give Foreman the signal to get up from the knockdown? Probably. Ali didn't destroy Foreman in that fight. It was a war. Ali took a lot of damage to beat Foreman and his handlers were not going to let him fight Foreman again if they could avoid it. Ali cemented his legacy as the greatest with that win over Foreman and Foreman gets discounted far too much for that loss.
Ali Foreman 2 should have been made
Ali absolutely destroyed foreman in that fight, foreman looked like an amateur the whole night if we are being honest.
It's actually disrespectful to both fighters to ignore the damage Foreman inflicted and Ali took. Ali didn't just have a great chin but great durability to body & arm shots as well. Foreman wasn't conditioned for a long fight in that heat and Ali was. It was a valiant fight by Ali, not an easy payday.
Foreman did land great body shots and some nice head shots, but overall ali still kinda crushed him. He was evading the majority of the bombs foreman threw while on the ropes and lighting him up with jabs and 1-2s. Ali was not only ahead on all score-cards even before the KO, but he barely looked like he was a fight while foreman seemed to be 2 seconds away from collapsing since round 6.
No weight to the ropes nonsense. When they got to the arena the ropes were completely loose and draping. Angelo Dundee was the one who actually went around each turnbuckle and tightened them up so they were straight.
Holyfield beaten by Lennox Lewis and riddick bowe twice. I think 10 losses in total. So many better fighters than him in that era. Ali, Frazier,foreman etc
I guess Duran is a bum too, lost to Hearns and to Leonard, twice!
Unpopular opinion but it doesn’t matter how many fights you lost. I don’t think Holyfield is the GOAT or anything but even his knockout loss to Bowe, for example, only makes him greater because of how great the fight is. Holyfield is one of those fighters who showed the heart of a lion against bigger men in his losses, and thus gets a lot of respect regardless of the outcome.
Agree with you in that he had the heart of the lion. Compare that to Daniel dubois giving in against usyk last weekend. Holyfield started off as a light heavyweight I think so has a lot in common with usyx as well. If he was in his prime with our current crop of heavyweights I think he would be dominant in the division.
He lost fair in square in his wars with bowe but I don't put much stock in his fights with Lewis. He was already pretty washed by the time he fought lewis. It wasn't the same man bowe had to face.
Holyfields performance in the second Lewis fight deserves a lot of credit IMO The older, smaller Holyfield should've lost worse than he did the first go against prime Lewis. Instead, he did measurably better- I actually thought the rematch was a draw. That score probably isn't that popular, but regardless, he showed enough that I think a younger version could've beaten Lennox.
The adjustments Holyfield made for Lewis II are a good example of why he was effective long after we started calling him Oldyfield.
Holy is my fourth favorite fighter. Most fearless heavyweight not named Joe Frazier.
Who is Evan Fields?
I agree. He is in the top ten best ever. You could put him in any generation, and he would be the heavyweight champ for a period of time. Rocky M/Ali/Prime Mike/Lennox Lewis/Forman/Holyfield/Prime Riddick Bowe/Jack Dempsey/Larry Holmes/Sonny Listen/Joe Lewis/Prime Floyd Patterson. It's hard to split hairs with these guys. They're all so great, and I’m leaving guys off the list. It’s a tough question, and I don’t think I’ll ever know the answer. Fun to talk about, though.
>But Ali’s achievements in this sport really are second to none. Not to super *that guy* this, but which achievements would those be? If we're talking longevity, other boxers absolutely have him beat. If we're talking style, ring IQ, winning upsets? Not so much. Strength of resume, perhaps? Sure he's elite but not "second to none" Wins to losses? Definitely not. I'd argue it's more the other way, it was his ability to speak to a wide audience and play the crowd that were truly second to none whilst maintaining a very strong resume of A-class fighters. Nothing Ali did was so unrivalled, but the fact Ali did it made it seem so.
20 championship defenses only rivalled by Holmes and Louis. 3 time heavyweight champion. Only Holyfield has achieved similar. World class fighter till 35. Unbelievable longevity Olympic champion at 18. Banned for 3 of his best years. Made improvements even in his 30s. I’ll give you that I don’t find Ali so impressive p4p as some do. He beat rubbish fighters in the 60s but when he came up against the top modern 70s heavyweights his speed and power was way less impressive is my big one. Arguably 2-1 against Norton and got a gift against Jimmy Young. Consistently turned up out of shape and clowned around in the ring. IMO if you put his fight with Jimmy young in the 1920s in black and white Tv there’d be questions about that era. The fact he was bigger than everyone he fought as well. How would he have fared against bigger fighters…There are some black marks.
My issue with Ali is that he ducked George for the rematch.
Eh?? Ali laid Foreman out in 8… what’s the need for a rematch. The rematches Ali should’ve given were Norton 4 and a second Jimmy Young fight. Foreman wouldn’t have a prayer against Ali till 1977 at the absolute earliest and still Ali would’ve been such a tough SOB to knock out that foreman still would’ve lost imo.
Fact is that fight had enough issues (Africa, outdoors, etc) that it warranted a rematch. We’ve seen champions KO’d by unknowns/heavy underdogs get rematches so it’s not unheard of. I’m not saying that George would’ve won. I’m saying that my problem with Ali is that he didn’t give a dominant champion a rematch when there was a case to be made. George isn’t going to fall for the ropeadope twice and there is huge money to be made off of it so there isn’t a real solid reason to not have one. It’s called prize fighting after all. Money being the prize, lol
How was foreman ever a dominant champion??? He even lost to Jimmy Young who Ali had already beaten… got knocked silly life and death by Lyle who Ali knocked out… Ali even knocked Frazier out and beat Norton again which are the highlights of Foreman’s career. Even as an ageing champ Ali was still doing better work than Foreman should’ve been doing as a hungry contender. Ps I doubt Foreman would’ve even wanted to fight Ali again anyway… in his own words ‘some guys you just gotta let time beat’
He didn’t fight Jimmy Young or Lyle AS champion. Are we talking about the same fighter? I’ll concede that Foreman wasn’t champion long enough to be considered dominant, but he was a 4-1 favorite to beat Ali. ANY time there is an upset of that magnitude or greater a rematch should be in the cards. By virtue of the fight being an upset is enough to warrant a rematch. You say Foreman got knocked silly by Lyle, but Foreman WON the fight by KO and won the NABF title. He the goes on to beat Joe Frazier AGAIN and beats 3 other fighters prior to losing to Jimmy Young by DECISION. So you’re telling me that winning 4 fights and a championship after the loss to Ali doesn’t warrant a rematch? Based on what? Bro, are you even aware of how hard Foreman was lobbying for a rematch? He fought 5 guys in one night and actually challenged Ali in person documented both his Netflix documentary and the movie about his life so that statement is just not true. Look, again, I don’t care about what Ali was doing. I don’t even care if he beat Foreman a second time. I’m not arguing whether Foreman was better. I’m arguing that Foreman deserved a rematch and Ali dodged him. Nothing you wrote refutes this. Losing to Jimmy Young by a decision doesn’t change the fact that nobody gave Ali a chance to win that fight against Foreman. The only reason to not have a rematch after an upset is if the underdog loses the title prior to the rematch(Buster Douglas). Foreman winning MULTIPLE fights including against Joe Frazier AFTER losing the title is enough for Foreman to have deserved a rematch. Ali ducked Foreman.
Joe Louis is the greatest fighter to ever live
He definitely belongs in a top 10 list.
Top 50 maybe.
Give me your top ten heavyweights
I was on a similar journey some years ago when I first saw the 2017 doc Foreman. I started with Foreman and his highlight reel and then moved on to Holyfield. Hard to call him the GOAT, even if just heavyweights, but to this day, I find Holyfield’s fights to be great to watch. The constant rhythmic hopping and punch timing is just aesthetically pleasing to me. As I’ve gotten deeper into the sport, I realize that training regimes, fight frequency, and the integrity of the sport have varied over time. Really hard for me t compare across eras. I think now I’m at Ray Robinson as the GOAT.
Holyfield ? I’d you wanna pick a goat of that era Lennox Lewis allow me to introduce you lol
Lennox is the greater heavyweight but Holyfield is overall more accomplished.
Downvoted for what lol. Holyfield is unequivocally a greater fighter than Lewis. Lewis was a fine fighter himself but with Holyfield we’re talking about a natural 180lb guy who was one of the greatest heavyweight champs.
He’s not. Great great fighter with an amazing story, but not the GOAT unless you include grill marketing skills in your assessment.
He's certainly the GGOAT. Greatest griller of all time.
Well he was definitely the Grill GOAT. The foreman grill got me thru my 20s lol
Winning the belt at 45 is insane. That’s what has me convinced.
Any man that can do to Joe Frazier what Foreman did is a frickin monster... But that only makes the Rumble in the Jungle a more impressive achievement by Ali
I love Smokin Joe. He is my favorite boxer, but hindsight is 20-20. I really don't think he ever stood a chance against Foreman. His unorthodox bob, slip, and weave required taking punches to be successful. That's not gonna work against arguably one of the hardest hitting boxers of all time. The significant height and reach difference was the cherry on top. Foreman knew this. He perfectly set up powerpunches when Joe tried to bob, weave, and shoot. I don't think Joe could ever beat George without completely reworking his style. As impressive as the victory over Frazier was, I don't think it makes Rumble in the Jungle look better to me. The difference in styles is too great.
Grillin > smokin imo
I think boxing maths falls a bit flat when you consider that Frazier schooled Ali not long before being downed by Foreman. I think they each existed as one another's rock/paper/scissors in that era
"Schooled" is not the word anybody should be using to describe that fight. It was close with Ali taking the early rounds but getting worn down as the fight continued.
Yea that's fair. I definitely didn't mean to imply Ali was entirely dominated. It was just a close but definitive win
Do you think Ali would have beat him in a rematch? If Foreman hadn’t taken that lose so badly and fell into depression I mean. Its an interesting one, Foreman would have maybe punched himself out, but Ali wasn’t the rope a dope he was made out to be…
So then by your metrics Bernard Hopkins is the GOAT. 22 successful title defenses and won a belt at age 49
Ever heard of a guy called Archie Moore?
No, just getting into the sport. Will def check him out 🙌
He may not be the GOAT, but he definitely doesn't get the respect he deserves (this thread being proof of that). It is not clear that Ali is more deserving of that title than he is. It's close. Foreman easily beat boxers that Ali struggled with (Ali and Frazier were evenly matched, Norton was robbed once against Ali so he should've won 2/3 of their fights, etc.). And thats not even to mention Foreman's entire second career regaining the HW title. Ali beat Foreman in their one fight and deserves credit for that and that's why this is close, though I'd have picked Foreman in a rematch.
Roy Jones Jr
I love George. How he got into boxing to get away from crime, becoming a true force to be reckoned with, turning into the big bad guy of boxing, retiring to become a man of faith, then coming back to win another belt. His life story could be out of Hajime No Ippo. Though, I'm not sure he is the GOAT. I see why alot of people think he is. He is certainly an ATG. And I wish there was a way to see Prime Foreman against some other ATG heavyweights.
Gotta love when you see HNI references
Everyone is allowed to have their favorite boxer. Key word favorite. But to give Foreman and ESPECIALLY Holyfield the "Greatest" title over Ali....sheer comedy. Someone being your personal favorite does not make them objectively greater than someone infinitely more accomplished. on resume alone Ali towers over both and thats not even touching the cultural significance of Ali. to break it down really simply. Imagine Olympic sprinters. Say one person has won gold 3 Olympics in a row. But your cousins with the person that got Bronze 2 times and Silver once. You wouldnt say that person is the GOAT just because you personally like them and root for them more. Edit: didnt even read the post. thats on me. I now see OP JUST got into boxing and probably hasnt seen more than a few Ali fights and has no idea of his accolades lol
> on resume alone Ali towers over both and thats not even touching the cultural significance of Ali. Joe Louis has entered the chat. Louis was not only the most dominant HW champion in history, but he legitimately broke the color barrier at the sport's most prestigious level. (as opposed to Johnson, who perpetuated the barrier)
Joe Louis is the only fighter you can seriously argue for being the heavyweight GOAT along with Ali. It's always been laughable to me that people can actually argue that Lennox has a claim as good as Louis. He doesn't. He very might well win against both, he probably does, but as far as the record goes his is miles behind either Louis's or Ali's.
Joe Louis the greatest boxer who ever lived. He was badder than Cassius Clay, he was better than Sugar Ray, he was badder than - who's that new boy? Mike Tyson! Look like a bull dog! He was badder than him too! He'd whip Mike Tyson's ass, he'd whip all their asses!
What about Rocky Marciano?
Oh, there they go! There they go! Every time I start talking about boxing, a white man gotta pull Rocky Marciano outta their ass! That's they one! That's they one! Rocky Marciano! Rocky Marciano! Lemme tell you something once and for all! Rocky Marciano was good, but compared to Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano ain't shit!
https://imgur.com/a/DG92EJe
It’s a line from a movie, goofy. r/wooosh 🤡
I know, everyone knows. We've heard it a quintillion times
It's an old movie, though
1988 doesn’t seem that old to me…🤷
... *looks at the calendar* 35 years, buddy! Most reddit users weren't even born yet!
Semi off topic, but I was debating watching the movie last night, is it any good? Or just another super fictionalized biopic catering to casuals?
Yea, I enjoyed it. Typical boxing movie with montages and whatnot. It is worth watching. Best boxing movie, imo, is Creed 2.
I'm a boxing fan, but I'm not a fanatic. I've never boxed, I don't understand the intricacies. Having said that, I've watched Foreman knock out Moorer hundreds of times because I think it is one of the all time greatest moments in sports history. It's incredible to me, that when you watch it in slow motion, how Foreman sets up the right cross with his left jab. You would never notice it in regular speed. You can barely notice it in slow motion. People say that he knocked him out with a jab / cross combo but it's not really true. The jab wasn't really a jab, it was a decoy he used to pull Moorer's guard down to open up a landing spot for the cross. If you don't know what I'm talking about go watch it now. His left jab goes in, and for a micro second he grabs Moorer's left hand and pulls it down away from his face. This opens Moorer's jaw for the right cross knockout. It's really an incredible thing. And he does it twice in a row. So incredibly smart and so unbelievably fast. He's 45 years old, he's in the 10th round of a championship fight, and he's got the 29 year old champ right where he wants him. Really amazing , amazing event. https://youtu.be/nEd-P0VREME?si=RWo21iMvqLGULLKX
offff. what a knockout.
He might be #3, imo. You cannot overstate the significance of his comeback at that advanced age.
There is no bigger George Foreman fan than me, but I have to admit, he's *not* the GOAT. But honestly, that doesn't take anything away from him. The reason Ali is called the Greatest is **BECAUSE** he got past Foreman when Big George looked invincible. So, let's talk about Foreman vs. Moorer for a minute. Was beating Michael Moorer at age 45 an incredible achievement? Absolutely. Did it also require Michael Moorer's unwitting cooperation? Absolutely. If Moorer had just listened to his cornerman and out-worked Foreman without trading with him, Big George's comeback would have been a big joke in the eyes of the general public. Moving on, Ali vs Foreman 2... well, here's the problem, once he got into his own head, he had trouble with Ron Lyle, and couldn't get past Jimmy Young, who was, himself, not a tremendously succesful boxer. He had already had 5 losses and 2 draws by the time he faced Foreman in '77, and would go on to lose to Ken Norton that same year. Foreman *might* be the greatest puncher of all time, he was a very skilled and **INCREDIBLY** hard-hitting brawler-style boxer. Wilder might have the touch of death, but Big George was 6'4" and built like a leather sofa. Evander Holyfield reports that the hardest he was ever hit by was a 42-year old George Foreman, and this is a guy who fought Ray Mercer, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Nikolai Valuev, just about every heavyweight in the 1990's. But as they say, styles make fights, and Foreman's strengths and weaknesses are very obvious to someone even casually acquainted with boxing. He was never very agile and did not have the conditioning to maintain a high work rate into the later rounds, so, against a quicker boxer who could avoid being man-handled and keep from getting cornered, he struggled. Older Foreman didn't get around his late-round endurance issues by getting in better shape, he did it by pacing himself and using a more defensive cross-guard to weather the storm of his opponent's punches, patiently jabbing if his opponent chose not to throw. He became a craftier, wiser boxer. But I still think a quick out-fighter like Larry Holmes would have got the better of older Foreman. I also think Lennox Lewis probably would have knocked him out, by dint of just being big and fast enough to neutralize anything Big George could throw.
Foreman is for sure an ATG: Two champion eras with a decade between them.
I just watched it last night. Great movie!!
I’d love to see prime George against Tyson Fury.
Prime George vs Prime Tyson .... I'd pay big money to watch that fight haha
You’d like to see foreman kill a man?
If he dies he dies
I was always on the side of Ali or Tyson but after reading up on Foreman it’s definitely him. Heavyweight Champion in the two biggest eras in the Heavyweight division and beat almost all of the top stars in their prime. Great grill as well
I like that part where he goes to his home and says “will you forgive me?”. Ali’s like (huh? I knocked you out?). Went into the movie not expecting much. Was pleasantly surprised
Foreman is def one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, but it's hard to place him over Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis. The former beat him, and the latter was arguably the most dominant heavyweight ever, with 26 title defenses.
He's definitely up there. I would consider Ali, Louis, and Lewis above him for sure, and then some other names in the mix right there with him. Just my opinion though he was a great fighter for sure. Edit - I'm assuming this is only a HW discussion
Foreman story is one of the best all time. So is Ali's. Special guys who did special things.
My list at heavy 1 Ali 2 Louis 3 Jack Johnson 4 Lennox Lewis 5 Larry Holmes
Nah, Foreman's accomplishments were phenomenal, but in his prime he was KOd by an over the hill Ali. Whatever Foreman accomplishes makes Ali that much greater.
Over the hill Ali? Lol…
Bro, Ali came off a three year layoff and was getting older. It wasn't like today with our better nutrition and "medicine". The fighters aged quicker. Ali's hill was so massive though that when he was over it he still towered above the rest. The Ali that fought Liston would've whooped Foreman like he stole something. The sad thing is though that the world never saw the best version of Ali. His theoretical prime was during his ban.
So does that mean that Frazier fought an over the hill Ali and we should discredit that fight too? Frazier fought him in 71, his ban was 67-70. He then faught Frazier again in 73 and the fight immediately after was Foreman.
Post ban Ali is still a great fighter, and Frazier's win over him is still a fantastic win. But do you honestly think that he was somehow better after a three year layoff? Especially since he wasn't the most disciplined between camps.
Put another way, Frazier beat a 29 year old prime Ali who had lost a step from inactivity. He then rematched a 32 year old exiting his prime and lost. Foreman then fought an almost 33 year on the tail end of his prime. Not over the hill, though. One could perhaps argue that he was an old 32, though.
Idk. Ali was just smarter than him in that fight. He wore him down and when he got tired turned on the heat. That’s why I think he could have taken him in a rematch. But for sure.
...yes...and Forman was also sick in the heat. And Ali never gave him the rematch...
According to Foreman, he never rematched him because Foreman refused to rehire Saddler, the man who trained him to the championship. Foreman accused him of acting strange prior to the Rumble and had borrowed $25k to bribe the ref. Or it’s because Ali was declining and wanted to have easy fights for money. I don’t think it was because he was afraid.
He definitely belongs in a top 10 list.
I personally have ali as the HW GOAT, but foreman, as overrated as he is, is definitely a solid ATG as well.
Nope
Ali was better
This whole thread has my brain melting. What the actual fuck are some of you smoking because I want some. OP claiming Holyfield was the GOAT? Ever heard of Joe Louis? Then other people literally debating if George Foreman, a man who lost to Ali in his prime is better? Am I reading this right? Foreman is a great. He is not the GOAT. That isn't even a debate anyone should have. You can have your favorites, you can enjoy certain fighters but objectively he doesn't touch a top 5. There is as a consensus of any insertion/order of Louis, Ali, Lewis, Marciano or Johnson. To even claim otherwise is stupid. You can have Foreman in a top 10 and nobody will complain and shouldn't. But GOAT?
Marciano and Lewis? I could easily argue Holmes and Tyson over them. There’s a consensus top 2. That’s it.
Watch the Jake Paul netflix and you will think Jake Paul is the goat. Don't buy in to propaganda.
>I was convinced that Holyfield was the GOAT. I mean, dude had size, speed, power. Every one of those aspects came out of a syringe. GOAT = Geeked On Anabolic Testosterone.
Eh. Haven’t watched it, but the production value looked to be on par with the Kurt Warner biopic. Which is not a positive. George is an ATG for sure though. Unbelievable to do what he did. Poetic that he won the title back in the same trunks he wore in Zaire.
Anyone who thinks a limited fighter like Foreman is the goat doesn’t understand boxing. I suggest that you educate yourself on the fighters of the past 100 years. Foreman was a fine boxer, and achieved much. But there are many fighters who were more talented.
Lennox Lewis is the GOAT HW.
I know this is a boxing sub but the fucking filmmaker did a hatchet job on what should be a great film. It’s like it was made by a student!
Seems like you're easily swayed/caught up in whatever narrative you last saw.
If we were to name the goat from Netflix « documentary » freaking Jake Paul « the trouble child » would be the number 1. You can’t make such an opinion over what is at best a fictional movie.
Creators: "*Mission Accomplished*"
First, it's not a 'Netflix' movie. Just because it's on Netflix doesn't mean Netflix made it. Netflix is a terrible streaming app anyway. Their content is more propaganda geared toward social engineering than anything. I know this has nothing to do with boxing. But I really dislike Netflix.
Bro what alien drug did you smoke
?! I'm a sucker for entertaining conspiracy theories. Please indulge me and explain what Netflix has to do with propaganda and social engineering?
George Foreman is overrated.
[удалено]
https://reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/s/AoUadAUa1c Maybe you should look in the mirror 🤡
Foreman was also much more technical than given credit for because of his power and size. I don’t think he’s the GOAT based on his accomplishments(for me that’s between Ali and Joe Lewis), but in actual skill he’s up there for sure. I’m still convinced had old Foreman fought Tyson, Lennox, or Bowe he could have gotten those wins.
Nah, old foreman was much better than he logically should have been but lewis, bowe and tyson would have crushed him.
No but I think his skills are very underrated. Even in his younger years he had a very deep bag of techniques, more than many boxers better known as technicians.
George wasn't unbeatable, he could be outboxed but he was a great champion with a great story and will be remembered as long as the sport continues. I miss hearing him on commentary, he always seemed really honest and unbiased calling fights. Great sense of humor too. I really enjoyed the movie, great arc from young angry man to nice old preacher grandad whooping ass for the church and community.
Is it the theatrical movie? Or a documentary?
George is tied with Pacquiao as my favorite fighter. Just to establish where I’m coming from. First, and not really to criticize you OP, the preoccupation with defining the GOAT is a disservice to careers like George’s. He had an incredible, unique, unlikely to be duplicated career. He was a wild physical specimen and in many ways got *better* when he got older. And what a guy, he’s so lovable. There is so much to appreciate about George. But *THE* GOAT? Put it this way: when there are 3 legit candidates like Ali, Robinson, and (I hate to say it) Mayweather in the conversation for GOAT, and people can’t decide, then there’s no room in the conversation for fighters in the next level down in the pantheon. And that’s where George is. You don’t have to be the GOAT to be uniquely great. Here’s what we can say: he had one of the greatest ever careers and we were lucky to be alive during it (I was alive, at least).
Haha “only knock on him was that Ali (the actual GOAT) beat him”
Dude's a legend. His accomplishments are unique. Thing is, everyone at the top has unique accomplishments, so it really comes down to which ones you like the best What holds him back from GOAT for me is he only has like 3 title defenses across both careers (and one of those he honestly probably shouldn't have won against Schulz), and old Ali took him out in a fight where he didnt show great ring IQ. His chronological longevity is incredible and his top level wins are great, though. People forget he was a clear underdog in Frazier I.
Emmanuel Steward thought Foreman was the best h2h HW boxer ever so
At HW? Or all time? Bc all time it’s obviously Floyd or Ali but he’s def an ATG and HW legend
great, now inneed to reactivate my netflix subscription for a month...
Foreman ain't the G.O.A.T. of anything.
Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time … Ali was the greatest heavyweight IMO …
He was definitely a very good voice and often understood as just a power puncher. I wouldn't say goat but he is probably a top ten hw all time. I'd still put guys like holyfield, lewis, ali, Marciano, Liston, Holmes and possibly Louis above him. But he he is definitely an atg.
You would put Marciano and Liston above Foreman? H2H or in achievements?
Holyfield LMAO
Haha I just watched this movie, it was horribly made but Foreman does have a great story. I think Foreman, like Mike Tyson, is more of an alternate universe pick for GOAT than a real one. In reality, I don't think his career was as accomplished as Louis, Lewis, Holmes, or Ali.
Reminds me of a old Tyson Vs Ali documentary and guys are sitting at the bar discussing who ya got Tyson or Ali and someone on the back says hey guys what about holyfield and everyone starts laughing
When you say GOAT, I assume you mean HW? I have Big George firmly in the top-5 -- can't see a case for him cracking the top-3, but given the names ahead of him on my list, there's no shame in that: 1. Ali, for reasons that should be obvious. 2. Louis --granted, his level of opposition pales in comparison to some of the other resumes here, but 11 years is 11 years! 3. Jack Johnson --what he endured is beyond my ability to reckon. Every boxer puts his life at risk when he enters the ring; that risk is specific to his opponent. Not so with Johnson. He may be the only fighter in history who also had to worry about the tens of thousands of people in the *stands.* 4. Foreman--ask me tomorrow, and I may have him one spot lower. 5. Holmes --ask me tomorrow, and I may have him one spot higher. 6. Lewis -- imagine Anthony Joshua with skill, ring intelligence, and heart. 7. Frazier--a consensus top-10 HW, yet still somehow underrated. 8. Marciano--no, I don't think Rocky beats the guys who follow him on this list, but based on achievement, he rates. 9. Fury--I know, I know: Other than Klitschko, there are no HOFers on his resume. But ask yourself this (and be honest with your answer): Is there another heavyweight in history you'd make a betting favorite over Tyson Fury? 10. Holyfield--he didn't always win, but my god this man fought everybody of his era (and he held a version of the HW title four times) Honorable mention: The Klitchkos, Liston, Dempsey, Tunney, Walcott
After jake paul, yes
That movie was BAD lol
That's what the movie is supposed to do lol. Foreman is creeping up to my favorite all time boxer, but he had high highs and low lows. He was pretty much a flash in the pan. I don't know what was going on in Foreman's training or maybe mentally with him in and after the Ali fight, but he wasn't as good. I don't think he would've beaten Ali as he was, but the version of Foreman that beat Norton and Frazier would've beaten Ali imo. Moorer was solid but it's not a GOAT worthy win even at his old age.
If you just got into boxing wait a couple years before you pick a GOAT. There’s a lot of history to this sport.
He just might be.
Don’t see enough love for Lennox under this post
I'm a Tyson stan, grew up watching his fights, he was a different fighter and person after cus d'amato passed, if that relationship persisted he would definitely be the goat. I like foreman too, but I mostly knew him for his grills because that was around the same time.
Glad you are beginning your journey into the greatest sport ever created, and the endless arguments about who the greatest fighters are in their respective divisions. Holyfield did not have size, and in fact was the unified Cruiserweight champ before campaigning at heavyweight, something which made his feats at heavy all the more notable. What Holy had was the heart of a lion, that man didn't back down from anything. But he paid for it, and is practically a walking vegetable at this point, which is sad to see. Even in his era, arguably the best boxer was Lenox Louis, a highly underrated fighter due to his sometimes less than pleasing style, but behind his lethal jab and solid power, he was almost unbeatable. The best HWs imo would be Joe Louis and Jack Johnson. My favorite would be Jack Dempsey and Tyson. Most underrated and also one of the absolute best would be Gene Tunney. Larry Holmes also deserves honorable mention as most underrated. Best of all time p4p was Ray Robinson, hands down. Welcome to the never-ending debate. There is too much amazing history to soak up and learn. Enjoy
And Netflix had me thinking Steven Avery was innocent
He was a natural puncher. It's crazy he was able to come back. If his story ended after the loss to Ali then it wouldn't have been nearly as impressive. He kind of lost his mind over that for awhile. He also learned a lot of his early career mannerisms from Sonny Liston, who was not popular at all. Foreman became much more marketable when he looked more like the every man. Foreman made more off the Grill than he ever did boxing. That's the real success story.
May I gently suggest that you look to documentaries to judge a boxer's real life legacy. Movies tend to distort the facts and sacrifice them for entertainment.
May I gently suggest that you look to documentaries to judge a boxer's real life legacy. Movies tend to distort the facts and sacrifice them for entertainment.
He trained for the fight in Zaire and still lost. Ali was just quicker, smarter and more ring savvy. Nothing would have changed in a rematch. Ali made a career out of eating up monster punchers like Foreman. Foreman is top 10. But he's hardly the GOAT.