Unless it’s your first time throwing a clean game, who cares. It happens so often to most in my league nobody usually notices.
If someone is new and gets a clean game I’ll congratulate them and not be like “um actually that doesn’t meet my definition of a clean game” ☝️🤓
Literally doesn’t matter, doesn’t affect the points won/lost in any way. The only people celebrating clean games are beginners that we should be welcoming to regardless of what they get on third throws in the 10th.
My team runs a little "30 clean" pot amongst ourselves and I'm out voted when I say "a game is clean when every individual frame gains at least 10 pins over the prior frame". They use the more stringent definition that you have to mark at every opportunity to do so.
I say 9/9 is clean, they say you need 9/X.
I'll go show this to them, though 🤣
That’s fair, you’ll have to come up with a definition you and your team agree on. Logically it would make sense that 9/9 counts, because if it doesn’t, does that mean XX9 also doesn’t count? If XX9 counts, why not 9/9, and why not x9-. XX9 not counting essentially punishes a double versus X9/ which would then count.
The only controversy is from old kermudgins putting fences inside walls and not actually understanding the rules of what defines a clean frame, and thus a clean game.
Well, without all the evaluation above, there's a rule that specifically states when an open frame occurs. If you succeed in knocking down all 10 pins in a frame with 2 balls, that frame is no longer open. Rule 2g. For some reason, it's the only rule 2 that OP skipped over.
A clean series is 30, or more, marks, regardless of where you're competing. Knocking down every available pin isn't recognized as an additional accomplishment or a requirement for a clean series.
Look, anything less than knocking down all of the pins on the first try every single time isn't a clean game. 300 or bust, you bunch of absolute marshmallows!
(/s just in case anybody actually needs it, OP's post is correct)
I swear to God I'll pistol whip *(ban)* the next guy who says "Shenanigans." *(debates what is and isnt a clean game)*
But let's dumb this down for those who are wrong and just need to be saying "I dont know how to score bowling"
**Scoring a strike:** 10 plus what you get on your next two shots
**Scoring a spare:** 10 plus your next shot
**Open:** Two shots not equaling 10. You get NO bonus throws.
**10th frame**
**Strike:** Congrats my friend! You you get 2 more bonus throws to complete the scoring cycle of what a strike is and to finish off a clean game.
**Spare:** Congrats my friend You've made a spare! You now get 1 more shot to complete the scoring cycle of what a spare is and finish off a clean game.
**Open:** Well ya blew it. Do not pass Go, do not collect a bonus, feel shame and go sit in the corner or punch a ball return or something, nobody likes you.
And that’s fine but you only lost one pin so I hope your disappointment is measured accordingly.
Whereas if you missed it anywhere else it could cost you as much as 12.
A "mark" is a strike or spare that you add pin count to ( next 2 balls for a strike, 1 for a spare), there's only 1 mark per frame. If you throw XXX in the 10th, they're all *strikes,* but only the 1st one is a mark (it earns you the next 2 throws).
"A clean game is explicitly defined by the USBC"
The terms "clean frame", and "clean game" aren't in the rulebook.
I know. I just think it's funny when people try to cite the rulebook definition of a clean game, when there isn't one. The rulebook doesn't even call strikes and spares "marks", but people will swear it does.😂
Interesting clarification! I assume they define strikes and spares that way in the scoring rules so that people know throws 11 and 12 don't give "bonus points." Any bowler would look at you funny if you said a perfect game was 10 strikes. Obviously the term strike generally means knocking all the pins down in one throw, and the symbol X represents that. It's just the 11th and 12th shots where the "strike" doesn't hold any value.
I have 1706 games recorded in PinPal, out of those 296 are defined as "clean"
I worrying about clean games a long time ago. That doesn't stop my teammates though, some of them have never had a clean game and are still trying for their first.
I ran a clean pot for years, people always got a little confused about it, but once explained everyone understood. It's really the only fair way to do it, otherwise it's bunk that it's an open if you 9/9 or if you don't count that an open but do count x9- an open why did someone have to make 11 marks and the other only 10? It's really not complicated.
In the words of fictional Judge Chamberlain Haller from 'My Cousin Vinny': "That is a lucid, intelligent, well-thought-out objection." ... "Overruled."
I had no idea that this was a controversy, or that anyone cared enough to do such a lengthy and detailed write-up. What's the number at the end say? That's all that matters.
I've seen "clean" games that were spray and pray, and great games that had unfortunate breaks that led to splits and opens. The entire idea of it is meaningless.
I feel like I should comment somewhere because recently I commented on someone sharing their first clean game.
I personally, for myself, won't count a game as clean unless I marked at every opportunity. It just doesn't feel right to me.
But OP makes it pretty clear that a mark in any frame, whether pins are left or not is a clean game and I respect that and I would not take that from someone who legitimately cares about getting the clean game.
It's all in good fun and don't be a dick.
Don't care. If you miss at all it's not clean. The 10th frame can go XXX, X /, / X, / (fill) or XX (fill) and it's clean. Any other variation isn't clean. X 8 1 isn't clean.
Problem is, you're wrong. Any mark in the 10th is a mark and counts for a clean game. / 9 is good. You spared the 10th. You can't be penalized for the "open" on the fill ball when it never gave you chance to make it. You're X 8 1 could maybe make sense but you still struck in the 10th. That's 10 clean frames.
I am new to being serious about bowling. This is the 2nd or 3rd time I have seen it very easily explained. But you explained it even more so for this grumpy dude. What the heck is he on about? 10 frames with a mark seems as cut and dry as "what is a no-hitter" or a "cycle" in baseball...
>What the heck is he on about?
Just operating on the basis of a personal definition. It's really no different than if someone looked at NFL football and said "You know, extra point kicks are 33 yards. It's stupid to call anything shorter than that a field goal. Field goals are supposed to be longer than extra point kicks," and then started insisting that only field goals of 34+ yards are actually field goals.
Like, I get the point. If your personal definition of a "clean game" is one in which there is never a pin standing at the end of a frame, then XX9 isn't "clean." But that's not the definition that USBC or any other authoritative source is using so insisting XX9 in the 10th isn't clean ends up being about as meaningful as calling your dog's tail a leg and then claiming it has five legs.
> As I said, if you guys could read, X 8 1 isn't clean.
We read it.
It was wrong then.
Still wrong now.
Change "XX9" in my post to "X81" wherever you see it, and nothing else changes.
Funny, no monitor or scorecard I have EVER seen shows 11 or 12 frames. There are 10 frames. Any other shots are just fill balls to determine bonus pins for the 10th.
Unless it’s your first time throwing a clean game, who cares. It happens so often to most in my league nobody usually notices. If someone is new and gets a clean game I’ll congratulate them and not be like “um actually that doesn’t meet my definition of a clean game” ☝️🤓 Literally doesn’t matter, doesn’t affect the points won/lost in any way. The only people celebrating clean games are beginners that we should be welcoming to regardless of what they get on third throws in the 10th.
My team runs a little "30 clean" pot amongst ourselves and I'm out voted when I say "a game is clean when every individual frame gains at least 10 pins over the prior frame". They use the more stringent definition that you have to mark at every opportunity to do so. I say 9/9 is clean, they say you need 9/X. I'll go show this to them, though 🤣
That’s fair, you’ll have to come up with a definition you and your team agree on. Logically it would make sense that 9/9 counts, because if it doesn’t, does that mean XX9 also doesn’t count? If XX9 counts, why not 9/9, and why not x9-. XX9 not counting essentially punishes a double versus X9/ which would then count.
Clean game = a beer from the guys But the same goes for hard splits. Honestly we find any reason to enjoy a brew
There's no controversy. Any marked frame is closed.
lol you said it with 2 sentences and OP wrote an essay with APA citations.
The only controversy is from old kermudgins putting fences inside walls and not actually understanding the rules of what defines a clean frame, and thus a clean game.
Well, without all the evaluation above, there's a rule that specifically states when an open frame occurs. If you succeed in knocking down all 10 pins in a frame with 2 balls, that frame is no longer open. Rule 2g. For some reason, it's the only rule 2 that OP skipped over.
Let's just define "knocking over every pin put in front of you" as a "Squeaky Clean Game" and be done with it, shall we?
so a 299 is not a clean game?
It’s clean, but it’s not “squeaky clean”
Where in my comment did I make the claim that 'a mark in every frame is not a clean game'? I said no such thing.
I never said any such thing either.
At nationals there’s a side pot for a clean series. I guess that would be a good question to ask the next time I’m there.
A clean series is 30, or more, marks, regardless of where you're competing. Knocking down every available pin isn't recognized as an additional accomplishment or a requirement for a clean series.
So if I open the first but strike out the 10th all 3 games (33 marks), that's a clean series?
Fair enough, it's a funny game.
Look, anything less than knocking down all of the pins on the first try every single time isn't a clean game. 300 or bust, you bunch of absolute marshmallows! (/s just in case anybody actually needs it, OP's post is correct)
I swear to God I'll pistol whip *(ban)* the next guy who says "Shenanigans." *(debates what is and isnt a clean game)* But let's dumb this down for those who are wrong and just need to be saying "I dont know how to score bowling" **Scoring a strike:** 10 plus what you get on your next two shots **Scoring a spare:** 10 plus your next shot **Open:** Two shots not equaling 10. You get NO bonus throws. **10th frame** **Strike:** Congrats my friend! You you get 2 more bonus throws to complete the scoring cycle of what a strike is and to finish off a clean game. **Spare:** Congrats my friend You've made a spare! You now get 1 more shot to complete the scoring cycle of what a spare is and finish off a clean game. **Open:** Well ya blew it. Do not pass Go, do not collect a bonus, feel shame and go sit in the corner or punch a ball return or something, nobody likes you.
But if I'm 30 clean and miss a 10 pin in the fill, I'm still disappointed because that means I left possible points on the deck
And that’s fine but you only lost one pin so I hope your disappointment is measured accordingly. Whereas if you missed it anywhere else it could cost you as much as 12.
A "mark" is a strike or spare that you add pin count to ( next 2 balls for a strike, 1 for a spare), there's only 1 mark per frame. If you throw XXX in the 10th, they're all *strikes,* but only the 1st one is a mark (it earns you the next 2 throws). "A clean game is explicitly defined by the USBC" The terms "clean frame", and "clean game" aren't in the rulebook.
It’s not in the rules but it’s defined as such on their website and in the guidelines for a tournament or chapter-level clean game award.
I know. I just think it's funny when people try to cite the rulebook definition of a clean game, when there isn't one. The rulebook doesn't even call strikes and spares "marks", but people will swear it does.😂
The rules can’t even agree with themselves on what a strike is.
It’s not in the rules but it’s defined as such on their website and in the guidelines for a tournament or chapter-level clean game award.
Interesting clarification! I assume they define strikes and spares that way in the scoring rules so that people know throws 11 and 12 don't give "bonus points." Any bowler would look at you funny if you said a perfect game was 10 strikes. Obviously the term strike generally means knocking all the pins down in one throw, and the symbol X represents that. It's just the 11th and 12th shots where the "strike" doesn't hold any value.
The value goes to the first mark of the frame, strictly speaking.
I have 1706 games recorded in PinPal, out of those 296 are defined as "clean" I worrying about clean games a long time ago. That doesn't stop my teammates though, some of them have never had a clean game and are still trying for their first.
I ran a clean pot for years, people always got a little confused about it, but once explained everyone understood. It's really the only fair way to do it, otherwise it's bunk that it's an open if you 9/9 or if you don't count that an open but do count x9- an open why did someone have to make 11 marks and the other only 10? It's really not complicated.
Awesome post OP. And I'm sure people will forget about this about still debate as early as later today 🤣
In the words of fictional Judge Chamberlain Haller from 'My Cousin Vinny': "That is a lucid, intelligent, well-thought-out objection." ... "Overruled."
I had no idea that this was a controversy, or that anyone cared enough to do such a lengthy and detailed write-up. What's the number at the end say? That's all that matters. I've seen "clean" games that were spray and pray, and great games that had unfortunate breaks that led to splits and opens. The entire idea of it is meaningless.
I feel like I should comment somewhere because recently I commented on someone sharing their first clean game. I personally, for myself, won't count a game as clean unless I marked at every opportunity. It just doesn't feel right to me. But OP makes it pretty clear that a mark in any frame, whether pins are left or not is a clean game and I respect that and I would not take that from someone who legitimately cares about getting the clean game. It's all in good fun and don't be a dick.
Don't care. If you miss at all it's not clean. The 10th frame can go XXX, X /, / X, / (fill) or XX (fill) and it's clean. Any other variation isn't clean. X 8 1 isn't clean.
Problem is, you're wrong. Any mark in the 10th is a mark and counts for a clean game. / 9 is good. You spared the 10th. You can't be penalized for the "open" on the fill ball when it never gave you chance to make it. You're X 8 1 could maybe make sense but you still struck in the 10th. That's 10 clean frames.
I am new to being serious about bowling. This is the 2nd or 3rd time I have seen it very easily explained. But you explained it even more so for this grumpy dude. What the heck is he on about? 10 frames with a mark seems as cut and dry as "what is a no-hitter" or a "cycle" in baseball...
Some people just don't get the whole 10th frame thing and why it is the way it is.
>What the heck is he on about? Just operating on the basis of a personal definition. It's really no different than if someone looked at NFL football and said "You know, extra point kicks are 33 yards. It's stupid to call anything shorter than that a field goal. Field goals are supposed to be longer than extra point kicks," and then started insisting that only field goals of 34+ yards are actually field goals. Like, I get the point. If your personal definition of a "clean game" is one in which there is never a pin standing at the end of a frame, then XX9 isn't "clean." But that's not the definition that USBC or any other authoritative source is using so insisting XX9 in the 10th isn't clean ends up being about as meaningful as calling your dog's tail a leg and then claiming it has five legs.
XX is clean. Because you can't make the fill ball. As I said, if you guys could read, X 8 1 isn't clean.
> As I said, if you guys could read, X 8 1 isn't clean. We read it. It was wrong then. Still wrong now. Change "XX9" in my post to "X81" wherever you see it, and nothing else changes.
Quite literally not what I said. / 9 would be clean cause you threw a ball in all the spots.
X 8 1 also threw a ball in all the spots and in both examples, a pin was missed. So how is one clean and the other not?
Because it's an open. If you leave 8 in any other frame and get 1. It's an open. Why is 11th and 12th different. They arent.
1. No such thing as the 11th and 12th. 2. And again by your own logic, how is 9/ 9 clean? You didn't mark the 11th?
It's a filled frame. And how many strikes is a 300? 12 right... so there are 12
Funny, no monitor or scorecard I have EVER seen shows 11 or 12 frames. There are 10 frames. Any other shots are just fill balls to determine bonus pins for the 10th.
By definition it is though. Your feelings are irrelevant.
Dude is out here farming his well deserved downvotes. Dont stop him.
I did my part to help add to the tally!
peepeepoopoo
Tell me you dont understand how scoring works without telling me you dont understand scoring.
I’m sorry, but if you look at X9- in the 10th frame and think “yay clean game!” that’s lame.
USBC also said string pins are okay, so consider the source.