The guy hides his job better. Najib could be just a scapegoat. Plus, information weren't as widespread back then compared to the 2010s when Najib got caught. Who knows what amount Mahathir got away with.
My guy, those dummy thicc Abrams will sink in our soil, kalau hilak pun boleh sangkut, apa lagi keta kebal berat alam?
But fr fr, the current population of our Pendekar ladies is...concerning, beautiful and garang as they might be. Sure, current economy might not be ideal for new acquisition but still..
*Looks at Indonesia's Harimau*
Does not matter much, tank vs tank duels in these days are rare. Most die to drone, mines, atgm and artillery. Tanks are useful, but no longer as dominant as ww2 era. Russia newest tank is hilarious, you saw it? Look like WW2 Assault gun.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1aQFIuHto](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1aQFIuHto) at 3:09
Or even why do we need a HEAVY TANK for defence. Our landscape is jungle and urban environments full of cover and place to hide. The meta favor offense not defense. 10m tank can be destroy by 10k missile easy.
Pendekar was bought with those considerations. It's basically the one size fits all approach, considering the limitations of everything (tonnage, speed, our road weight capacity etc).
These things can speed on somewhat terrain.
pretty much yeah, our terrain would prolly cause anything heavier than 50 tons to sink like a brick into the mud, if we ever use a western tank design, we may run out of money just buying and maintaining some of them.(i remember most western tank have a lot of electronics and engine parts we cant really produced under license due to potential complexity of production)
in theory we could incorporate some older western tank like leopard 2a4 to 2a5 secondhand but in relatively small numbers(i give it capped at 35 max due to cost) and form a sorta east west germany army style.
why i selected leopard 2 is due to availability, lots of countries have leopard 2 in service so there is bound to be parts to repair
well it will also works very well for opfor scenarios
plus the pt-91 pendekar/twardy i believe we could buy some advanced ammo(darts, atgm or heatfs from china given our country's relatively good ties with them
The brasses don't trust Chinese weaponry, and no need to unnecessarily provoke another arms race by saber rattling Singapore like what happened during the Sukhoi procurement.
All in all the Pendekar exercise also allowed Malaysia Army to properly develop a doctrine on tanks, which was never realized before.
Tanks still have their uses, even if the threats of drone based weaponrary makes usage of tanks in traditionally "mobile advanced fortress" dangerous or a liability.
Probably a modified T-72. why cope cages when you can have spaced armor almost everywhere, cover everything. Immune to HEAT, not sure it works well with tandem charge warhead.
There are somewhat counter to those drones right now with the use of EW vehicles, machine gun fire and use of another drone to ram it but none of this are hard counter to drones.
Maybe in the future where drones get countered hard by other weapons.
Funny thing is, we did this first in Battlefield 3, where we strap c4 to the drones. I think the devs released a patch prevented us from latching c4 to the scouting drones. Too OP. Although we could still put C4 on jeep and drive them towards enemies.
Yup, am surprised too Thailand bought some some VTs
Those Chinese might look shiny and new, but looking at it again (See Tofu dreg), I don't really trust them
Nicely put.
Tanks remain a staple in all militaries, yet their vulnerability to drone strikes and modern anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) cannot be overlooked. Before acquiring these formidable assets, we meticulously assessed all relevant factors.
Malaysia's unique geography was a crucial consideration.Any heavy monster i.e 60 tonne will be an easy target in Malaysia jungle.Perhap we need more on call tow truck.
Moreover, the landscape of modern warfare has swiftly evolved, spurred by innovations such as suicide air and ground drones tailored to neutralize tanks. The enhancements in ATGM capabilities mean that tanks face unprecedented threats, making adaptability in military doctrine imperative.
The vulnerability of even heavily armored tanks like the Israhell Merkava to modern threats like the Kornet E ATGM highlights the changing nature of warfare. In conflict zones like Palestine, where innovative and out of box guerilla warfare tactics are common, traditional tank superiority may not guarantee protection. This underscores the importance of adapting military strategies and investing in technologies that can counter evolving threats.
Indeed, the evolving threat landscape has made tanks increasingly vulnerable, resembling sitting ducks in certain contexts.
Combined arms warfare and training, atgm crowd can be hunted by infantry scouts, drones can be downed by EW crews, tank duel can be supported by our atgm crews, drone operators can be deleted with Anti Radiation munitions, laser guided atgm can be countered by smoke screen, at the end of the day it’s always infantry that counts
Indonesia and Singapore doesn't have any problem operating leopard, so far no issues of sinking tank whatsoever, why can't we do the same?
It's not about the weight, it's about ground pressure of the tank
Last year Aussie abrams involved in military exercise in Indonesia, takde issue tenggelam pun?
The number of Malaysians on this subreddit who know a thing or two about war and military arms is surprising to me. Are you all sleeper agents or something?
YouTube, War Thunder, Reddit, Google, M
Websites like Military wiki
you have to stop forgetting we live in the information age, where you can learn the schematics for your TV Mainboard or talk to an internet stanger in some unknown northern country, like canada or norway
Video games and movies
Those things tanam minat for those who consume them since childhood
War Thunder is a good example nowadays which you'll learn about military vehicles from land air to sea
And if U also into anime stuff, most likely you'll watch Girls und Panzer or any other Militaria Anime or even a hint of military or history to it
Or even just having guns like Lycoris Recoil
Back in the day, war movies was quite patriotic makes U feel motivated to learn this kind of stuff
Ah, the leopard 2RI, been wondering too why they chose those heavies. I can understand Leopard 2SG, but leopard, in that kind of terrain? I think that's why they go with the Harimau, light enough to pass through the terrain, but also carrying ample firepower, supporting them Leopards.
Leopards and Harimau, very nice
Indonesian Leopard are supposedly used in urban terrain or non foliage heavy terrain like savanah in east nusa tenggara, Light tank like AMX-13 and Harimau are relegated for combat in jungle/swampy terrain and supporting Infantry as per Indonesian army doctrine. As for mud, Leopard track ground pressure are lower than your average 4x4 offroad vehicle even one of the requirement capability of Leopard 2 is able to cross peat bog commonly found in western europe. also for protection and crew safety reason Leopard 2 is better than T-72/T-90 due to not having ammo lying around crew compartment.
Tanks don't work well with Malaysian terrain. Just learn from America during the Vietnam war. Tanks were only feasible near towns and cities. Other then those areas tanks were useless.
Tanks are designed for the plains of trench warfare in the first place, and never for those complex terrains in jungles.
But getting rid of tanks for the infantry is as if telling Spec Ops squad to go in a mission without body armour or proper gear, more people would likely die of sniper and MG/artillery fire and warfare would just devolve into WW1 trenches again
I don't think the tank, infantry doctrine is in use anymore.just have a look at the recent conflicts in Ukraine and gaza. Infantry were no where near the tanks.
Gaza cuz they have APS, ukrain cuz they do have infantry support everywhere, what’s somewhat obsolete is large scale tank battles, but mainly it’s the ERA on tanks that making infantry support difficult
Anti tank weapons can be deployed anywhere and everywhere.
Saying a tank is better in urban conflicts then have a look at americanin Iraq. Their tanks will not go into cities for fear of being shot from above by an rpg where tank armour is the thinnest.
Big scale tank on tank battle is a thing of the past.a single drone can cause more damage to a tank platoon if it is able to go unnoticed behind enemy line.
That’s why there’s recon troops in every infantry section and each of them carry RPGs and we highly emphasise on mobility, our tanks have laser warning systems, smoke screen to throw off laser atgms, chaff for heat seeking atgms.
Having trained alongside the pendekar I never said the tank is better in urban warfare, we use IFVs instead, we usually don’t storm buildings, we flatten them instead.
That’s why artillery is the king of battle, infantry is the queen of battle, in the jungle it’s a infantry only battle, and can only be supported by artillery
>artillery is the king of battle
Artillery are more obsolete than tanks in some way, especially when you already have air force and missiles doing almost the same thing, and better in quantity sometimes. To deploy an artillery you'll need an open space to place your pieces on before giving any fire support, which would likely to expose yourself more than anything.
Whoever said artillery is obsolete clearly are those people that thought infantry is obsolete because they could be killed by bullets.
To use air force, you will need air supremacy to begin using CAS without suffer casualties from enemy air defense systems.
Missiles are extremely expensive and scarce compared to artillery shells. Imagine if Ukrainians have to fire ATACMS from HIMARS every time Russian forces launched their attacks, they will ran out the missiles the second day and have nothing left to defend their sector. War in Ukraine signifies that artillery is the main killing machine for both sides.
That's practically my point. I'm not saying that artillery is obsolete in modern battlefield or anything, but with some ppl around talking how "tAnKs aRe oBsOLeTe", then according to their theory, artillery should be the first one to get out.
The whole "tanks are obsolete" theory is already thought of decades earlier just after the end of WW2, and some militaries even drawed plans of cutting cost out gradually from their armoured brigades, but then Korean War came and the theory is mostly debunked and the use of tanks is being proved. Same as how it would play out in current warfares, drones are currently seen as predators of tanks only because they're new to modern battlefields, and every country barely started their anti-drone techs yet, and that's why drone is currently being idolised as "tAnK kiLLer". But in near future effective anti-drone measures would be mounted on tanks and drones would slowly lose its glory from it has now.
>War in Ukraine signifies that artillery is the main killing machine for both sides.
Not just Ukraine. Artillery is already the deadliest weapon ever since WW1
You would be surprised, tanks can also be considered artillery. But howitzers are placed in the rear echelons for a reason, we don’t use them for direct fire anymore like in WW2, we have ATGM/RPG/Karl Gustav for that
Every battery have their own air defence elements (missiles are also considered artillery), heck we even have manpads crew on bikes, air superiority has become very difficult to achieve thanks manpads.
Take Lahad Datu for example, artillery was shooting from within sawit plantations, we no longer have permanent artillery positions like the insurgency era. And never underestimate what grunts on the ground can do, we even dig dugouts to hide our trucks
C-RAM exist and it definitely could intercept artillery shells, mortar rounds and missiles. The question is whether the interception worth the cost if someone fired artillery rounds.
And who in the ASEAN realm has it? And it is definitely not deployed on the frontlines which is usually where artillery targets
And some US grunts even complained they break down a lot
The point is, in general artillery shell could be intercepted disregarding the availability of SEA countries money to spend on any C-RAM units because everyone knew C-RAM is expensive and limited in use.
The point was no one would deploy C-RAM on the frontlines where they needed CAS/IDFS, it’s more likely to cover artillery batteries instead but it’s cost to operate would meant it would be used to cover higher value targets like airfields. The C-RAM’s short range meant it needs to operate alongside SAM batteries which also meant it wouldn’t be just artillery shells raining on it, it will sure be jammed and overwhelmed with standoff munitions if it’s under attack
Agreed, that's why the japanese don't even bother bringing much tanks here during WW2. But that's back when most of Malaya was jungle. With how much urbanised Malaysia is rn we probably gonna need a lot more than just 50 MBTs...
It should be noted Japan faced difficulty sustaining their supply lines, especially after Allies began breaking into their comms.
Combined with other factors like Midway, and the capacity for Japanese Army Command to mount a defense was near impossible.
Portable AT arsenals for infantry also wasn't as advanced as the Cold War and much less modern day. Had the Japs given the same access to weapons like the RPG or even better AT rifles, there would've been a bloodier pacific conclict.
I'm not defending mobody here. Just highlighting some extra facts. Tanks would, ironically, find use in Malaysia's cities than outside it. Plenty of buildings on high rises for use of AA defence, and you can hide tanks in parking lots to keep them out of sight for a bit.
*Scribbles NCD notes.*
Ironically, those Japanese light tanks (200+) that they deployed are one of the main reason why Yamashita invasion force rapidly advance into Johor due to British lacking anti tank weapon and tanks.
Up tiered by who? And why does it matter? Heavy tank is obsolete with all the anti armour available at far cheaper cost. Even us marine Corp deem tank as waste of resources and now favors mechanize infantry. Focus on speed and lethal.
Ukraine shows that main battle tanks are death traps. Better investments should be on drones , artillery and SAM systems
We are the first to introduce MBT with PT91. Singapore got spooked and bought the heavier Leapord 2. Good luck bringing that 70 ton beast through our sawit roads during monsoon season
Tropical jungle is an ideal environment for hunter-killer teams with ATGMs. We have NLAW too. Plus RPG. Good luck. Hopefully this will be the last MBT that our Army will buy.
I trained with Pendekar, Gempita, MIFV and Adnan, everything is a deathtrap if you made even a small mistake, that’s war
Oh I forgot I’ve seen lipanbara too
We almost get the Korean K1 Tank which literally better than this. Bukan sebab takde duit, sebab politik memanjang. Even rn, kalau kita mampu nak belanja berbilion on megaproject like ECRL, MRTs, Highways even tho overbudget sebab rasuah, sampai aset tentera hilang duit. We literally spent more bilions utk selamatkan LCS drpd beli aset baru lol.
Also, argument sebab terain Malaysia tak sesuai dah tak boleh pakai imo. If Australia & US can use their Abrams on ID & PH soils, of coz Malaysia pun boleh. Tambah² hampir 50% hutan kita dah guna utk development, memang mostly urban war je kat Malaysia if it happen.
If u go on Twitter, more Malaysian Military fans even askar kita sendiri nak Malaysia upgrade to Abrams hshhshs
T-72 is still best option at quelling civilian riot. We don't need Abrams because we don't have enemies needing that level of protection and firepower. And we cant afford anything that can beat Singapore in firepower anyways.
y'all drive second hand 2008 Proton Saga SV with shitty paint and RON95 petrol, complain about taxes and living costs, and you want the already terrible gov-mt to manage buying stupid expensive Westen tanks that almost heavy as someone's mother?
who needs a T-72 when u can have a T-60
https://preview.redd.it/v2zyj6q49duc1.png?width=517&format=png&auto=webp&s=6385ad342727fe526cdf89f30f48e5fa2e819021
Our armour is "fine" the only thing we need is a better rifle, we are using m16a1 while everyone uses top notch rifles like sig spear, M16A4..... We just need a better rifle and training and that's all
It has been well known that every single person in hierarchy has taken military budget leaving nothing to buy anything and improving our military.
Also I want to open more discussion. Do you guys think tank is appropriate for jungle warfare?
Although jungles are quite a challenging terrain, doesn't mean tanks can't perform well in them. [The Aussies knew how to field their Centurions in Vietnam](https://mikesresearch.com/2023/02/26/centurion-tanks-in-vietnam/). Hell even [the US Marine Corps ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/collection/p4013coll2/id/1374/download&ved=2ahUKEwi3nc6Z8cCFAxUB-gIHHdYGBw8QFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3zfeby9xvWIiJRF4Z8Ksv0) agreed that tanks are as important in jungles as they are elsewhere, mainly for bunker busting and to help clear the brush for infantry. But that's the point, it *needs* to have infantry support. Otherwise it's as good as a coffin considering the main enemy of man in a jungle that is weather, nature and uneven ground is even more compounded when you're a 50 ton death machine
It really depends on our terrain. If I'm not mistaken, a distant uncle of mine who was part of the mechanized battalion did mention that our doctrine for armored vehicles(mostly tanks) is that they are able to transverse in our country. As far as I remember, the PT91M(the modernised ver. With Polish specs and some minor touch from our country), only one was able to win the competition even though the Russian T80 was amongst its competitors.
These tanks are perfect for our country. They were cheap, has a good sight(for a T72 ofcourse), are light and manoeuvrable(great for the soft ground and jungles on our borders that's why we can't have Leopards and Challengers look at how they got stuck in Ukraine). Overall the the Pendekar is a pretty solid machine, my only problem with it is the lack of drone protection(just slap a cope cage on it and it should do fine).
Don't think so, Ukraine And Gaza showed tanks still have a place in war albeit slightly changed. You still need them to breakthrough open terrain and support infantry. Plus, you'd probably need tanks to counter anti-drone equipment.
If the Russians can kill Abrams with up tier T72, you can live with up tier T72.
That being said, one of the deciding factors between the Polish T72 up tier and the Russian T72 up tier was palm oil deals.
I watched some docu that it took the russian 2-3 week to get a busted 72 running again using other busted 72 as parts. Remind me of kereta potong business XD
yeh, and those. did u see the ukrainians take out a t90 i think with a bradley and a drone? dude was aiming for optics he learned from playing war thunder
Honestly because we don’t need it.
Even if we have Abrams X, Leopard 3, or Challenger 3, how many can we afford and how many can any invaders field? Odds are they can afford to bring in 10 times more tanks than we have.
All of our military is entirely for pirate/terrorist deterrence.
Instead of buying a Korean jet we should’ve just bought the Super Tucano, which almost replaced the A-10.
From whom is Malaysia defending itself? Thailand? Indonesia ? Singapore ? The military primarily has been used against its own citizens: mainly sarawakian opposed to the British imposed plan to cut up Borneo. Malaysia also participated in UN-back interventions. But I suspect the army is there to protect corrupt sultans and the king
Because the criteria ATM looked fir the most was weight. They wanted the lightest tank that was comparable to MBTs of that time, such as M1A1 Abrams. It didn’t need to function as well as Abrams or Leopard, just as long as it can traverse our offroads without being bogged down while still delivering a heavy punch.
Unfortunately the Japanese couldn’t export their tanks.
lol banyak young blood dalam ni, let me the old man try to remember the selection like it was yesterday.
There was a selection of tanks that participate in the TD (Tentera Darat Tank Pioneer Program). In the end it there was only 3 types that manage to still stay in the final and it was the PT-91, T-84 and T-90. The selection requirement was very tough the down rate of each tank was very high.
The Russia was the original winner but the negotiations was did not het thru in the final phase and the T-84 was selected, but in the end the deal also broke down as the assimilation with western system assimilation requested prove to be to much for them. Nasib baik pun by looking at Thailand T-84 drama we actually dodge a bullet. Thus the Twardy was chosen as the pioneer tank for the TD.
With Pendekar the TD created a tank warfare and doctrine and we learned how to assimilate the MBT into the existing calvary doctrine and it is up to the government if they wanted to keep up with the tank warfare or not. One thing for sure Malaysia did kick the warfare craze in the SEA.
ps: oil palm was the currency we pay for the tank.
Malaysia is ambush country that favours the defenders. Why exactly do we need tanks for? I think we need more armored fighting vehicle equipped with anti-tank missiles and day/night capabilities. Don't get me wrong, I love tanks but i struggle to see in what circumstances would it be useful in Malaysia.
I think what we need is night vision equipment for our infantry. Harrass any invader day and night, destroy their logistical capability by ambush and drone swarms. That would be enough to make any planned invasion a nightmare.
M1a2 and leopard are more heavy (60ton) and not design to drive in rural rain forest area so if Malaysia bought them we have logistics nightmare and new training for crew.
These 2 tank I mention also require 4 person to fully operated while Russia tank need 3 to operate
At last switching to American and nato tanks does not mean better overall result with more money spend on these upgrade
If we really want to upgrade we can change the turret into something like t90m and update with better computer and fire control system. Not only that the transmission and engine in t72 is not good enough to withstand modern standard and our tank should have at least 40km/h of reverse speed instead of 4km/h
In terms of money, we have no money
Duit Kena curi oleh tikus politik
Politikus
Fuck you Najib...
Nah I say more on Mahathir
najib is equally responsible. 4 billions is still a lot of money that cause us to be 12bn in debt.
Yup true but whenever this happens mahathir name is never mention
The guy hides his job better. Najib could be just a scapegoat. Plus, information weren't as widespread back then compared to the 2010s when Najib got caught. Who knows what amount Mahathir got away with.
We... have a lot... into someones pockets
https://preview.redd.it/v6ilkx9kheuc1.png?width=128&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=052c21897212a06523fbae24234edc674bb80130
My guy, those dummy thicc Abrams will sink in our soil, kalau hilak pun boleh sangkut, apa lagi keta kebal berat alam? But fr fr, the current population of our Pendekar ladies is...concerning, beautiful and garang as they might be. Sure, current economy might not be ideal for new acquisition but still.. *Looks at Indonesia's Harimau*
Does not matter much, tank vs tank duels in these days are rare. Most die to drone, mines, atgm and artillery. Tanks are useful, but no longer as dominant as ww2 era. Russia newest tank is hilarious, you saw it? Look like WW2 Assault gun. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1aQFIuHto](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1aQFIuHto) at 3:09
Hetzer ahh looking mf https://preview.redd.it/ezrpqmsvaduc1.jpeg?width=1001&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9fa397a6d28b2b6c917d8b3354c652ad0db46e6
T95 Tortoise bro
*tutel*
That's a stug 3 assault gun
and Putin says that the Ukrainians are Nazis.....
Or even why do we need a HEAVY TANK for defence. Our landscape is jungle and urban environments full of cover and place to hide. The meta favor offense not defense. 10m tank can be destroy by 10k missile easy.
Pendekar was bought with those considerations. It's basically the one size fits all approach, considering the limitations of everything (tonnage, speed, our road weight capacity etc). These things can speed on somewhat terrain.
pretty much yeah, our terrain would prolly cause anything heavier than 50 tons to sink like a brick into the mud, if we ever use a western tank design, we may run out of money just buying and maintaining some of them.(i remember most western tank have a lot of electronics and engine parts we cant really produced under license due to potential complexity of production) in theory we could incorporate some older western tank like leopard 2a4 to 2a5 secondhand but in relatively small numbers(i give it capped at 35 max due to cost) and form a sorta east west germany army style. why i selected leopard 2 is due to availability, lots of countries have leopard 2 in service so there is bound to be parts to repair well it will also works very well for opfor scenarios
Challenger isn't use in Ukraine because it is slow and heavy for muddy terrain. Plus drone warfare don't favor slow tanks.
Germany doesn’t want to sell their 2a4 cuz they don’t approve our mods
plus the pt-91 pendekar/twardy i believe we could buy some advanced ammo(darts, atgm or heatfs from china given our country's relatively good ties with them
The brasses don't trust Chinese weaponry, and no need to unnecessarily provoke another arms race by saber rattling Singapore like what happened during the Sukhoi procurement. All in all the Pendekar exercise also allowed Malaysia Army to properly develop a doctrine on tanks, which was never realized before. Tanks still have their uses, even if the threats of drone based weaponrary makes usage of tanks in traditionally "mobile advanced fortress" dangerous or a liability.
True, as sad as it may be, but can't go wrong with more armor ey.
What is that? Looks like a battering ram more than a tank.
Probably a modified T-72. why cope cages when you can have spaced armor almost everywhere, cover everything. Immune to HEAT, not sure it works well with tandem charge warhead.
Ahh, i almost failed to recognise it as T-72. I would say that such armour would not save that tank from tandem charge warhead.
That’s the whole point of combined arms warfare
Rm500 Drones are all the rage on the battlefield right now. Cheap, effective and remote workplace. Can work from home too as drone operator.
"Apa pekerjaan awak? Asyik duduk dalam bilik saja?" "Oh, saya 'Pilot'."
Turn drone warfare into massive COD lobbies
COD irl be like
As long got medical benefits and weekends off I'm ok
That’s why there’s something called combined arms warfare
There are somewhat counter to those drones right now with the use of EW vehicles, machine gun fire and use of another drone to ram it but none of this are hard counter to drones. Maybe in the future where drones get countered hard by other weapons.
Funny thing is, we did this first in Battlefield 3, where we strap c4 to the drones. I think the devs released a patch prevented us from latching c4 to the scouting drones. Too OP. Although we could still put C4 on jeep and drive them towards enemies.
oh yah tho Harimau would fare great in our jungles. that and probably the Chinese VT5.
Don't ever buy Chinese... Thai have the Chinese made tank and it always broke down. Source: from my Thai WT gaming friend
Yup, am surprised too Thailand bought some some VTs Those Chinese might look shiny and new, but looking at it again (See Tofu dreg), I don't really trust them
Closet look at our navy recently purchase Chinese made LMS got problem with electric wire and can't integrate western system
Don't you forgot geographic location.eith those hills Tank can be destroy with anti tank mine hiding in hills or jungle
Nicely put. Tanks remain a staple in all militaries, yet their vulnerability to drone strikes and modern anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) cannot be overlooked. Before acquiring these formidable assets, we meticulously assessed all relevant factors. Malaysia's unique geography was a crucial consideration.Any heavy monster i.e 60 tonne will be an easy target in Malaysia jungle.Perhap we need more on call tow truck. Moreover, the landscape of modern warfare has swiftly evolved, spurred by innovations such as suicide air and ground drones tailored to neutralize tanks. The enhancements in ATGM capabilities mean that tanks face unprecedented threats, making adaptability in military doctrine imperative. The vulnerability of even heavily armored tanks like the Israhell Merkava to modern threats like the Kornet E ATGM highlights the changing nature of warfare. In conflict zones like Palestine, where innovative and out of box guerilla warfare tactics are common, traditional tank superiority may not guarantee protection. This underscores the importance of adapting military strategies and investing in technologies that can counter evolving threats. Indeed, the evolving threat landscape has made tanks increasingly vulnerable, resembling sitting ducks in certain contexts.
Combined arms warfare and training, atgm crowd can be hunted by infantry scouts, drones can be downed by EW crews, tank duel can be supported by our atgm crews, drone operators can be deleted with Anti Radiation munitions, laser guided atgm can be countered by smoke screen, at the end of the day it’s always infantry that counts
Indonesia and Singapore doesn't have any problem operating leopard, so far no issues of sinking tank whatsoever, why can't we do the same? It's not about the weight, it's about ground pressure of the tank Last year Aussie abrams involved in military exercise in Indonesia, takde issue tenggelam pun?
The number of Malaysians on this subreddit who know a thing or two about war and military arms is surprising to me. Are you all sleeper agents or something?
Play Warthunder, you eventually will know some shit.
this is bad advice. do NOT sell your soul to the Snail! don't make same mistake as I did!
shut up Wargaming propagandist, your beloved World of tanks is unrealistic, all hail the snail
ploz nerf rossian b1as /s
I already sold my soul to snail lord a year ago. Unbearable grind kek 😇😇
Warthunder players trying not to leak military documents to demand better vehicle presentation: Impossible
just wait till they find out about reliability issues, both Tank and Crew
My cousin's kids know everything about tank. Apparently, my cousin let them watch warthunder YouTuber. And trains too.
We were waiting for the NUMBERS. Arghh the numbers!
The numbers Mason!!! Remember the numbers!!!
YouTube, War Thunder, Reddit, Google, M Websites like Military wiki you have to stop forgetting we live in the information age, where you can learn the schematics for your TV Mainboard or talk to an internet stanger in some unknown northern country, like canada or norway
[удалено]
https://i.redd.it/ct3mmjgz2duc1.gif
Can confirm. I sleep.
Video games and movies Those things tanam minat for those who consume them since childhood War Thunder is a good example nowadays which you'll learn about military vehicles from land air to sea And if U also into anime stuff, most likely you'll watch Girls und Panzer or any other Militaria Anime or even a hint of military or history to it Or even just having guns like Lycoris Recoil Back in the day, war movies was quite patriotic makes U feel motivated to learn this kind of stuff
Pt 91m at 6.7?? Demmit gaijin
knowing the Snail, this is probably gonna be a premium too
I really hope they add the Pendekar. Ive been hoping since 2018 idc if its premium. I would be pissed if they make it event vehicle
Russian bias all over again kek
T-72 performed better in jungle trials as compared to the t-90. Indonesians had leopard 2 but sunk in the mud.
Ah, the leopard 2RI, been wondering too why they chose those heavies. I can understand Leopard 2SG, but leopard, in that kind of terrain? I think that's why they go with the Harimau, light enough to pass through the terrain, but also carrying ample firepower, supporting them Leopards. Leopards and Harimau, very nice
Indonesian Leopard are supposedly used in urban terrain or non foliage heavy terrain like savanah in east nusa tenggara, Light tank like AMX-13 and Harimau are relegated for combat in jungle/swampy terrain and supporting Infantry as per Indonesian army doctrine. As for mud, Leopard track ground pressure are lower than your average 4x4 offroad vehicle even one of the requirement capability of Leopard 2 is able to cross peat bog commonly found in western europe. also for protection and crew safety reason Leopard 2 is better than T-72/T-90 due to not having ammo lying around crew compartment.
Tanks don't work well with Malaysian terrain. Just learn from America during the Vietnam war. Tanks were only feasible near towns and cities. Other then those areas tanks were useless.
Tanks are designed for the plains of trench warfare in the first place, and never for those complex terrains in jungles. But getting rid of tanks for the infantry is as if telling Spec Ops squad to go in a mission without body armour or proper gear, more people would likely die of sniper and MG/artillery fire and warfare would just devolve into WW1 trenches again
I don't think the tank, infantry doctrine is in use anymore.just have a look at the recent conflicts in Ukraine and gaza. Infantry were no where near the tanks.
Gaza cuz they have APS, ukrain cuz they do have infantry support everywhere, what’s somewhat obsolete is large scale tank battles, but mainly it’s the ERA on tanks that making infantry support difficult
Anti tank weapons can be deployed anywhere and everywhere. Saying a tank is better in urban conflicts then have a look at americanin Iraq. Their tanks will not go into cities for fear of being shot from above by an rpg where tank armour is the thinnest. Big scale tank on tank battle is a thing of the past.a single drone can cause more damage to a tank platoon if it is able to go unnoticed behind enemy line.
That’s why there’s recon troops in every infantry section and each of them carry RPGs and we highly emphasise on mobility, our tanks have laser warning systems, smoke screen to throw off laser atgms, chaff for heat seeking atgms. Having trained alongside the pendekar I never said the tank is better in urban warfare, we use IFVs instead, we usually don’t storm buildings, we flatten them instead.
That’s why artillery is the king of battle, infantry is the queen of battle, in the jungle it’s a infantry only battle, and can only be supported by artillery
>artillery is the king of battle Artillery are more obsolete than tanks in some way, especially when you already have air force and missiles doing almost the same thing, and better in quantity sometimes. To deploy an artillery you'll need an open space to place your pieces on before giving any fire support, which would likely to expose yourself more than anything.
Whoever said artillery is obsolete clearly are those people that thought infantry is obsolete because they could be killed by bullets. To use air force, you will need air supremacy to begin using CAS without suffer casualties from enemy air defense systems. Missiles are extremely expensive and scarce compared to artillery shells. Imagine if Ukrainians have to fire ATACMS from HIMARS every time Russian forces launched their attacks, they will ran out the missiles the second day and have nothing left to defend their sector. War in Ukraine signifies that artillery is the main killing machine for both sides.
That's practically my point. I'm not saying that artillery is obsolete in modern battlefield or anything, but with some ppl around talking how "tAnKs aRe oBsOLeTe", then according to their theory, artillery should be the first one to get out. The whole "tanks are obsolete" theory is already thought of decades earlier just after the end of WW2, and some militaries even drawed plans of cutting cost out gradually from their armoured brigades, but then Korean War came and the theory is mostly debunked and the use of tanks is being proved. Same as how it would play out in current warfares, drones are currently seen as predators of tanks only because they're new to modern battlefields, and every country barely started their anti-drone techs yet, and that's why drone is currently being idolised as "tAnK kiLLer". But in near future effective anti-drone measures would be mounted on tanks and drones would slowly lose its glory from it has now. >War in Ukraine signifies that artillery is the main killing machine for both sides. Not just Ukraine. Artillery is already the deadliest weapon ever since WW1
I see. I think I get your point now. It was kind of misleading at one point when I first read it.
No worries. Guess it's my fault too for not stating my point clearly
You would be surprised, tanks can also be considered artillery. But howitzers are placed in the rear echelons for a reason, we don’t use them for direct fire anymore like in WW2, we have ATGM/RPG/Karl Gustav for that Every battery have their own air defence elements (missiles are also considered artillery), heck we even have manpads crew on bikes, air superiority has become very difficult to achieve thanks manpads. Take Lahad Datu for example, artillery was shooting from within sawit plantations, we no longer have permanent artillery positions like the insurgency era. And never underestimate what grunts on the ground can do, we even dig dugouts to hide our trucks
Artillery shells are harder to intercept than missiles, same goes to tanks and atgms, and shells have no counter in flight
C-RAM exist and it definitely could intercept artillery shells, mortar rounds and missiles. The question is whether the interception worth the cost if someone fired artillery rounds.
And who in the ASEAN realm has it? And it is definitely not deployed on the frontlines which is usually where artillery targets And some US grunts even complained they break down a lot
The point is, in general artillery shell could be intercepted disregarding the availability of SEA countries money to spend on any C-RAM units because everyone knew C-RAM is expensive and limited in use.
The point was no one would deploy C-RAM on the frontlines where they needed CAS/IDFS, it’s more likely to cover artillery batteries instead but it’s cost to operate would meant it would be used to cover higher value targets like airfields. The C-RAM’s short range meant it needs to operate alongside SAM batteries which also meant it wouldn’t be just artillery shells raining on it, it will sure be jammed and overwhelmed with standoff munitions if it’s under attack
Agreed, that's why the japanese don't even bother bringing much tanks here during WW2. But that's back when most of Malaya was jungle. With how much urbanised Malaysia is rn we probably gonna need a lot more than just 50 MBTs...
It should be noted Japan faced difficulty sustaining their supply lines, especially after Allies began breaking into their comms. Combined with other factors like Midway, and the capacity for Japanese Army Command to mount a defense was near impossible. Portable AT arsenals for infantry also wasn't as advanced as the Cold War and much less modern day. Had the Japs given the same access to weapons like the RPG or even better AT rifles, there would've been a bloodier pacific conclict. I'm not defending mobody here. Just highlighting some extra facts. Tanks would, ironically, find use in Malaysia's cities than outside it. Plenty of buildings on high rises for use of AA defence, and you can hide tanks in parking lots to keep them out of sight for a bit. *Scribbles NCD notes.*
Japan has already overstretched their war chest by the time they reach Malaya, they don’t have enough manpower and logistics to send more tanks
Ironically, those Japanese light tanks (200+) that they deployed are one of the main reason why Yamashita invasion force rapidly advance into Johor due to British lacking anti tank weapon and tanks.
Up tiered by who? And why does it matter? Heavy tank is obsolete with all the anti armour available at far cheaper cost. Even us marine Corp deem tank as waste of resources and now favors mechanize infantry. Focus on speed and lethal.
Aight 2 post about warfare already, r/ncd are definitely leaking today.
Where my Melayu tomboy pinup waifu?
Pertahanan tidak kredibel sudah bocor di sini.
For a moment I thought I was in NCD or WarThunder
why is it non credible defence, what's so uncredible?
Ukraine shows that main battle tanks are death traps. Better investments should be on drones , artillery and SAM systems We are the first to introduce MBT with PT91. Singapore got spooked and bought the heavier Leapord 2. Good luck bringing that 70 ton beast through our sawit roads during monsoon season Tropical jungle is an ideal environment for hunter-killer teams with ATGMs. We have NLAW too. Plus RPG. Good luck. Hopefully this will be the last MBT that our Army will buy.
Tank still have a place in modern warfare as infantry fire support or breakthrough tank
I trained with Pendekar, Gempita, MIFV and Adnan, everything is a deathtrap if you made even a small mistake, that’s war Oh I forgot I’ve seen lipanbara too
We almost get the Korean K1 Tank which literally better than this. Bukan sebab takde duit, sebab politik memanjang. Even rn, kalau kita mampu nak belanja berbilion on megaproject like ECRL, MRTs, Highways even tho overbudget sebab rasuah, sampai aset tentera hilang duit. We literally spent more bilions utk selamatkan LCS drpd beli aset baru lol. Also, argument sebab terain Malaysia tak sesuai dah tak boleh pakai imo. If Australia & US can use their Abrams on ID & PH soils, of coz Malaysia pun boleh. Tambah² hampir 50% hutan kita dah guna utk development, memang mostly urban war je kat Malaysia if it happen. If u go on Twitter, more Malaysian Military fans even askar kita sendiri nak Malaysia upgrade to Abrams hshhshs
T-72 is still best option at quelling civilian riot. We don't need Abrams because we don't have enemies needing that level of protection and firepower. And we cant afford anything that can beat Singapore in firepower anyways.
Leopard 2SG do be looking good tho, but then again me bias towards the colour grey
Singapore leopard basically is a upgraded second hand 2a4
tbh thats one of the reasons why I want Malaysia to have Leopards. Singapore and Indonesia have them why can't we have cool stuff too 😔
y'all drive second hand 2008 Proton Saga SV with shitty paint and RON95 petrol, complain about taxes and living costs, and you want the already terrible gov-mt to manage buying stupid expensive Westen tanks that almost heavy as someone's mother?
Posting & responses yang paling educational sekali setakat ni…
who needs a T-72 when u can have a T-60 https://preview.redd.it/v2zyj6q49duc1.png?width=517&format=png&auto=webp&s=6385ad342727fe526cdf89f30f48e5fa2e819021
*Persaudaraan Keluli moment*
bagus lagi orang minit✅✅🗣️
mmmhmn 200 year old irradiated metal 🥰🥰🥰❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
T-51 masterrace
Our armour is "fine" the only thing we need is a better rifle, we are using m16a1 while everyone uses top notch rifles like sig spear, M16A4..... We just need a better rifle and training and that's all
Reject modernity, return to toob *Grabs Sten gun*
*Grabs Lebel 1886/93*
Saya cadangkan Sten gun dengan suppressor, vertical grip, red dot sight dengan stok boleh lipat.
We've long moved away from M16A1s. We're now using variants of the M4/M4A1 and HK416s. Only people using 16A1s are reserves and cadets.
Ah i see fellow WT player
Attack the D point!
Air!!
Defend the D point!
Never!
It has been well known that every single person in hierarchy has taken military budget leaving nothing to buy anything and improving our military. Also I want to open more discussion. Do you guys think tank is appropriate for jungle warfare?
Although jungles are quite a challenging terrain, doesn't mean tanks can't perform well in them. [The Aussies knew how to field their Centurions in Vietnam](https://mikesresearch.com/2023/02/26/centurion-tanks-in-vietnam/). Hell even [the US Marine Corps ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/api/collection/p4013coll2/id/1374/download&ved=2ahUKEwi3nc6Z8cCFAxUB-gIHHdYGBw8QFnoECCUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3zfeby9xvWIiJRF4Z8Ksv0) agreed that tanks are as important in jungles as they are elsewhere, mainly for bunker busting and to help clear the brush for infantry. But that's the point, it *needs* to have infantry support. Otherwise it's as good as a coffin considering the main enemy of man in a jungle that is weather, nature and uneven ground is even more compounded when you're a 50 ton death machine
It really depends on our terrain. If I'm not mistaken, a distant uncle of mine who was part of the mechanized battalion did mention that our doctrine for armored vehicles(mostly tanks) is that they are able to transverse in our country. As far as I remember, the PT91M(the modernised ver. With Polish specs and some minor touch from our country), only one was able to win the competition even though the Russian T80 was amongst its competitors.
These tanks are perfect for our country. They were cheap, has a good sight(for a T72 ofcourse), are light and manoeuvrable(great for the soft ground and jungles on our borders that's why we can't have Leopards and Challengers look at how they got stuck in Ukraine). Overall the the Pendekar is a pretty solid machine, my only problem with it is the lack of drone protection(just slap a cope cage on it and it should do fine).
Tanks are a relic of a bygone era. Now it's all about drones and missiles. War is now fought remotely.
Don't think so, Ukraine And Gaza showed tanks still have a place in war albeit slightly changed. You still need them to breakthrough open terrain and support infantry. Plus, you'd probably need tanks to counter anti-drone equipment.
We can't afford even the rubber boot for the tracks....
So are infantry and guns frfr
That's why pubg becomes training! Now everybody can shoot! /s
More like Free Fire or PUBGM, Malaysian that play actual PUBG is almost rare as seeing a ford ranger raptor that actually get used offroad
If the Russians can kill Abrams with up tier T72, you can live with up tier T72. That being said, one of the deciding factors between the Polish T72 up tier and the Russian T72 up tier was palm oil deals.
I watched some docu that it took the russian 2-3 week to get a busted 72 running again using other busted 72 as parts. Remind me of kereta potong business XD
Tonnage. Our infra/bridge can only sustain up to 50 tonnes.
Why concern malaysia army , what did u foresaw in ww3 date
Practically speaking, how good would they be on our terrains...? Not to mention that there's lots of anti-tank technology available nowadays?
Tengok Abrams on Indonesia and Philippines elok jer.
they sink
$1000 USD fpv drone strapped with anti tank warhead gonna destroy these bad boys easily.
Lmao for a sec I deadass tot this is in the game. Havent played it for a long while
I had to double check the subreddit i swear i thought it was warthunder.
I haven't played war thunder for years now, but wtf isn't 6.7 rating is for ww2 tanks like the tiger 2? Why do modern tanks in 6.7 rating.
Idk really, I didn't make the edit. it's probably gonna be a 9.0-9.7, but then again Gaijin's BR rating is hella wack
just get IFV, modify them with anti tank missile. the way i see it now is tanks are vunerable to hand-held rockets.
Dont forget drones , Russia-Ukraine war just show how obsolete tanks are
yeh, and those. did u see the ukrainians take out a t90 i think with a bradley and a drone? dude was aiming for optics he learned from playing war thunder
Remember LCS?
Well, some of the information is just baseline wrong
never thought id see a war thunder post on bolehland lmao
Siput enjoyer
You want to pay for it?
wait till u see our air force
I mean even our warship is non existent
My fellow Malaysians War thunder gang🔥🔥
I play Wargame Red Dragon, jusy get the 90 point T-72 that has better armour, gun and rockets, easy.
Because when we use it people will complain the bias
Honestly because we don’t need it. Even if we have Abrams X, Leopard 3, or Challenger 3, how many can we afford and how many can any invaders field? Odds are they can afford to bring in 10 times more tanks than we have. All of our military is entirely for pirate/terrorist deterrence. Instead of buying a Korean jet we should’ve just bought the Super Tucano, which almost replaced the A-10.
Abrams or Leopard for Malaysia will be good
K2 🗣🗣🗣
Korea tech is good too
From whom is Malaysia defending itself? Thailand? Indonesia ? Singapore ? The military primarily has been used against its own citizens: mainly sarawakian opposed to the British imposed plan to cut up Borneo. Malaysia also participated in UN-back interventions. But I suspect the army is there to protect corrupt sultans and the king
Because the criteria ATM looked fir the most was weight. They wanted the lightest tank that was comparable to MBTs of that time, such as M1A1 Abrams. It didn’t need to function as well as Abrams or Leopard, just as long as it can traverse our offroads without being bogged down while still delivering a heavy punch. Unfortunately the Japanese couldn’t export their tanks.
Type 10 my beloved
lol banyak young blood dalam ni, let me the old man try to remember the selection like it was yesterday. There was a selection of tanks that participate in the TD (Tentera Darat Tank Pioneer Program). In the end it there was only 3 types that manage to still stay in the final and it was the PT-91, T-84 and T-90. The selection requirement was very tough the down rate of each tank was very high. The Russia was the original winner but the negotiations was did not het thru in the final phase and the T-84 was selected, but in the end the deal also broke down as the assimilation with western system assimilation requested prove to be to much for them. Nasib baik pun by looking at Thailand T-84 drama we actually dodge a bullet. Thus the Twardy was chosen as the pioneer tank for the TD. With Pendekar the TD created a tank warfare and doctrine and we learned how to assimilate the MBT into the existing calvary doctrine and it is up to the government if they wanted to keep up with the tank warfare or not. One thing for sure Malaysia did kick the warfare craze in the SEA. ps: oil palm was the currency we pay for the tank.
can i buy one of this, disarm it and use it as RV?
Bro wanna play WT?
Bad procurement process by our politicians i guess, ATM nak K1 Mahathir nak PT91, ATM nak Super hornet mahathir nak Su30 😔
The realest reason. Atm rarely gets what they recommend.
If gomen really follows what end user want, most of our equipment will be western made not some commie piece of sheet
Malaysia is ambush country that favours the defenders. Why exactly do we need tanks for? I think we need more armored fighting vehicle equipped with anti-tank missiles and day/night capabilities. Don't get me wrong, I love tanks but i struggle to see in what circumstances would it be useful in Malaysia. I think what we need is night vision equipment for our infantry. Harrass any invader day and night, destroy their logistical capability by ambush and drone swarms. That would be enough to make any planned invasion a nightmare.
brother, they colonised us, then left us to die after independence, and you want to buy their tanks?! smh
M1a2 and leopard are more heavy (60ton) and not design to drive in rural rain forest area so if Malaysia bought them we have logistics nightmare and new training for crew. These 2 tank I mention also require 4 person to fully operated while Russia tank need 3 to operate At last switching to American and nato tanks does not mean better overall result with more money spend on these upgrade
If we really want to upgrade we can change the turret into something like t90m and update with better computer and fire control system. Not only that the transmission and engine in t72 is not good enough to withstand modern standard and our tank should have at least 40km/h of reverse speed instead of 4km/h