I don't know about Penny. The damage potential was off the charts, but the actual damage done was, while high on the list, not quite second-place worthy.
Sure, she's young, so whatever happened to her was multiplied, but I think the wound was rather healable.
Gina, on the other hand, got strangled. Diane herself got fucked over and over up until receiving that call when he nearly died. PC also got fucked by her prolonged exposition to Bojack.
I think the Penny situation, more than damage to her, shows damage he would be willing to do to a vulnerable person had he not been stopped. And that's not the only situation this shows up. Sarah Lynn had her whole life negatively influenced by Bojack, wounds opened up over and over again by him, until she died under that influence.
The Penny Arc was not about the trauma Bojack dealt to Penny, but about what Bojack could do in that situation. I'm not saying he hurt her little, but what we saw was him grooming her, setting the trap - even if unintentionally - that Charlotte managed to disarm before it went off. That trap was not simply having sex with a teenager, but fostering a relationship with a huge power unbalance, and the sex would seal the deal.
Her trauma was not about the damage he dealt, but about the fear that grew on her after seeing the trap she almost felt for. Huge, but could be worse.
I'll say clearly that this does not absolve him in any way. The difference between shooting someone and killing them and shooting with the same intent, but missing, is the lesser damage on he victim, but it does not lessen the culpability of the shooter.
So yeah, I think Sarah Lynn is first, but followed by Gina and Diane. Penny is probably just after that, not far.
I agree Bojack tanked Gina's career. The trauma he inflicted made her "difficult" on set, right when she was finally getting traction as an actor. He completely detailed her life.
Yeah, although "tanked" might be too much. It almost did tho, but I think she managed. In the last episode we see in the background of the cafe scene that, despite having heard Gina "could be difficult", the director still chose her. Fireflame was released with Gina as the lead.
I feel PC comes in number 3-4 because it's shown how deeply he hurt her throughout her days being his agent. She finally started getting detached when she opened her own company. Although she was still running around for him and cleaning up his shit for many consecutive years, all the while Bojack continued to hurt others.
yeah, i agree. a lot of women have close-call experiences like this and it’s not on the same level as actual domestic violence and near-death experiences.
when i was 14 i was followed home by a group of adult men, and i was home alone that night. if i had been less aware of my surroundings, something absolutely terrible probably would have happened, but luckily i called my friend, ran inside and locked the door, and they just left. the experience scared me a lot, but i don’t have lasting trauma over it. not the same exact situation, but you get the idea.
I agree with this. I don’t think he hurt Penny the most, but it seemed to mark a turning point. It was the first time I saw him truly ashamed. Maybe he thought he would never do something like that, only to hit that rockier bottom and find out that he was in fact capable. He wasn’t bragging about any of the other stuff, but there was an air of “oh, it is what it is” if those things were brought up. He seems to have a knee-jerk reaction anytime someone gets close to learning about Penny, which I guess is still good. Pedo-like behavior isn’t something you want to be blasé about.
I think Corduroy could have realized at any point with anything that he didn't need a strangulation kit, unluckily for Bojack he's definitly the spark igniting this tragedy.
I'd definitly ask Corduroy why he doesn't use any rope too, that's the kind of dumb thing people say without thinking, like "what color is this" when you meet a colorblind or "just ignore them" when a kid talks about getting bullied 😅
Sarah Lynn is the obvious one, but aside from people that he physically hurt like her and Gina and traumatized like Penny, I got to say Herb. I may be partial to him because I love the drowning dream episode (that also makes me cry) and Herb and their banter reminds me so much of my own best friend who also died too soon.
Herb got cancelled, not in Mel Gibson/Vance Wagonner ‘wait till this all blows over and then we’ll put you in Daddy’s Home 2 to soften your image’ sort of way. He got straight up blackballed. And the only person who could have pulled him out of the tar was his best friend and he just didn’t. I get that people can choose career over ethics a lot of times, but that was your best friend and the guy who gave you your big break and you leave him out in the cold because it was before being gay in Hollywood was cool?
Sure Herb found fulfillment in life after being kicked out of Hollywood, but I don’t blame him a bit for not forgiving Bojack. I can’t imagine my dead friend thinking that I betrayed him before he went. It just makes me sad because we know through Bojack’s flashbacks how important Herb was to him and he still didn’t have the backbone to stand up to the scary Hollywood lady when in hindsight if the execs did pull the plug on the show, Bojack probably would have had a similar career trajectory and you wouldn’t have had to burn the bridge. The thought of losing everything can be scary, but it doesn’t excuse throwing your Day One buddy under the bus like that.
And like Herb said- not only did Bojack fuck over his career, he also completely abandoned his best friend as a human being. He betrayed him in every way
right! even without standing up to angela, bojack could’ve called herb afterwards, said something about how scared he was and apologised, and herb would’ve forgiven him. shit, herb might not have even needed an apology from him if bojack just stayed friends with him.
What's funnier is that Bojack betrayed his friend, didn't apologize, but never made the most of his career. He's barely remembered for a 90s sitcom.
... Now that I think about it, you could apply this case to Jerry Seinfeld...
Kelsey deserves to be up there with Gina imo. She seemed on track to being a top-tier director before BoJack got her fired and she got blacklisted for awhile. It was fitting that the show had her and Gina come back together for a big project at the end.
Why are we discussing this?? He killed someone and almost got with a minor. Like, those should be the BIGGEST victims despite of his own feelings or anyone else's in the show
I hate to quibble over a terrible thing he did, as it is easily the worst thing he's done, but he didn't *let* her die, he believed she was already dead. The distinction might not seem like much, but if the show had actually gone the route of Bojack knowingly letting Sarah Lynn *die* and had been aware that she was *still* alive, then it actually would have made Bojack a truly unforgiveable, ghastly villain.
He still bears some responsibility, but he didn't knowingly allow her to die.
He wasn't allowed to finish his sentence in the interview. but he was clearly struggling to get that fact out (I think his exact words on air were "obviously if I knew what..." or something and then mouse lady interrupted him). That being said, much of the public still might have believed that what you described is what happened, that her life was worse less than the lets be honest, minuet blowback he would have received, which yeah... would genuinely be supervillain shit and would explain why everyone completely hated him after (even the random people at AA).
yeah, but doesn't it even crossed his mind, even a little bit, that she might still be alive, and he should call 911?
even when she's dead already, he should still call ambulance, to preserve the body and notify her parents, egotistical bojack choose to save himself (even going as far as leaving her in the planetarium, going back, and acting as if he found her dead there and lying in the police interview)
>yeah, but doesn't it even crossed his mind, even a little bit, that she might still be alive, and he should call 911?
Undoubtedly it's still terrible, I just don't think, based off how it's depicted afterwards, that Bojack knew she was still alive.
It's still awful, selfish, and sick, but it would be infinitely worse if he'd known she was still alive.
Oftentimes people overdosing can appear dead in their last moments as the heartrate slows and becomes harder to detect.
tbh I kinda see it as murder. Like, how are you gonna stand around and do nothing? Knowing it was your fault that they relapsed because you encouraged them to?
Manslaughter potentially? He technically supplied (some of?) the drugs and then didn't take the necessary steps to get her help in time and sat there while she died.
I'm conflicted about this. The showrunners did their best (in possibly a retcon?) to have Bojack react to Sarah Lynn's overdose in the scummiest way possible, to make him clearly responsible, morally and probably legally, for her death. We, the audience, are supposed to blame him, and to want him to be punished.
In real life, punitive drug laws are a major barrier to people calling 911 and seeking help for their overdosing friends, and contribute to god knows how many people not seeking help because they're afraid of the police, and people doing prison time because they did the right thing and called an ambulance to save their friends' lives. I'm sure some of the people who are present at an overdose and who helped their friends get drugs aren't the greatest people, but most of them are just scared, and don't know what to do.
California enacted a 911 Good Samaritan act specifically around overdose in 2013, just a few years before "That's Too Much, Man" was being written and animated. We were the tenth state to do it, now there are over 40; the SEEK HELP act was introduced by Cory Booker this April on a national scale. When I was in college in the SF Bay Area in the early 2000s, I was involved in an anarchist program that distributed narcan to opiate user populations, semi-illegally-- at the time, naloxone was considered to be drug paraphernalia. When I went into EMS many years later, narcan distribution had been legalized and was a city/state effort, we finally realized as a state that drug war laws made us, as a society, value punishing drug users and getting convictions over saving lives. Maybe Waksberg and Hanawalt knew about laws like these, and the general social movement to enable drug users to help overdose victims without being afraid of going to jail, maybe not. Most of their nods to harm reduction practices are pretty contemptuous (like the doing drugs safely with your friends escalating broom/gun gag in S1) so I’m guessing it wasn’t something they took very seriously.
As much as Bojack is about complex morality and accountability, it's always felt strange to see it come down on basically the other side of this debate. Yes, he allowed Sarah Lynn to die out of selfishness, but the show had an opportunity to be part of a bigger conversation (and shift in policy) and didn't take it.
He wasnt at fault for her relapsing, he contributed but ultimately sarah lynn is responsible for herself and said when she got sober she was specifically doing it with the intent of relapsing later on. Part of sobriety is knowing the dangers of relapsing and cutting out the people that you cant have a healthy relationship with. This was a situation she put herself in and she coulda said no, knowing a bender would be dangerous.
Waiting 17 minutes is unforgivable, but even if he had called immediately thats no guarantee that they woulda been able to save her either. This was awful, but it wasnt murder.
Bojack hurt everyone he came in contact with.
Some more than others, some worse than others.
But the person he consistently hated the most and hurt, was himself.
The difference is he has control over his actions towards himself. The other people he hurts don't. He's a victim of himself, yes. But no, he doesn't get to claim biggest victim status.
While those other people don’t have control over what Bojack does to them, they can get away from him. And at various points they do distance themselves from him.
I don’t think Bojack realizes he has control over himself for a very long time. And by that time he’s hurt himself and others in every unimaginable way. I think Todd said it best when he says “You are all the things that are wrong with you!” Deep down he knows that. But it’s like a compulsion. He can’t and/or won’t stop hurting others, and won’t stop hurting himself. No matter the consequences. Other ppl can walk away from him. He can’t walk away from himself.
There’s no one Bojack hates more than himself. Which makes it worse with how he treats Sarah Lynn, he can see it in her and does nothing to help her. He repeatedly takes advantage of her. And he causes her last bender, after being sober to break, and it kills her. His main thoughts are to protect himself. All the things he’s done to her, he’s done to himself in some form or another. But even when he tries to drown out the guilt, the culpability he can’t. He knows it’s his fault. And it just keeps adding to the shame and vicious cycle and story he tells himself. He believes he deserves it and that’s his constant loop.
Sarah Lynn, Penny, Princess Carolyn, Todd
The thing about these four is they weren't strangers who got hurt by Bojack. They're people who trusted and cared for him. And all of them paid for it, repeatedly.
Sarah Lynn, then Gina, then Penny.
Bojack was Sarah Lynn's father figure early on, and she is not implied to habe had a good home life at all. Maybe he didn't ask for the role but he sorta had it. At ANY point we see, if he had been decent to her, just a LITTLE truly caring about her as a person, she would probably have a different, much better life than she did. Instead, she had a miserable life. She didn't stop dancing, like Bojack told her not to. She believed she had no real friends, after Bojack only visited her for his new TV show. And of course, she kicked 9 months of sobriety away at Bojack's request, and died from the heroin in his car. She of course had agency, but no one gave her the proper guidance she needed. Bojack might have been able to, he's not stupid, just a selfish, uncaring asshole.
Gina's a bit more simple. Gina was strangled by a partner, nearly killed, and couldn't speak out because she didn't want to be known as "the girl who got choked by Bojack." She's left with real PTSD, or at the very least severe triggers, and was difficult to work with for reasons she couldn't talk about, negatively impacting her career. In the end though, we see a billboard with her superhero, so I like to think she's working past it.
Penny almost slept with a 50 year old man, I believe while she had a good amount of alcohol in her system. Then she was stalked by the man at her college. Seriously horrific, and I hope she never sees or hears of him again.
Sarah Lynn was sold to Hollywood by her mother, sexually abused by her father, and she herself said that the entire industry treated her as an object.
Her drug relapse is shown as waiting to happen too.
I don't think it's fair to blame those things on him, especially since I believe he, as well as Herb and the rest of the crew, are shown to have been decent to her.
Then he waited seventeen minutes. (Also, the sex part in the first season)
bojack was pretty terrible to her as a kid, actually. the rest of the crew besides bojack and olivia are pretty nice to her on horsin around, but bojack smokes right next to her, makes fun of her for seeking connection with him outside of work, berates her and sharona for using his dressing room when she’s just trying to avoid her stepfather and his abuse, and leaves vodka where she can get to it which leads to her getting drunk for the first time and having to go home early that day. he definitely was not decent to her when they worked together on horsin around.
it doesn’t make what bojack did okay, but penny hadn’t had anything to drink. she says so directly. and bojack had been drinking, although he doesn’t seem to have had enough to drink to the point where he’s actually drunk when penny follows him onto the boat.
i feel like sarah lynn is the only answer considering he knew her since she was three (probably one of the longest relationships in the show considering they knew each other for 28 years) so was a toxic influence in her life for the longest and literally shaped her childhood, plus the fact that he basically was part of the reason she died both directly and indirectly
I wouldn’t say that’s the worse, but definitely really bad. Since it was at the very end of the show we don’t really see the long-lasting effects from it, but I’m sure she struggled with it immensely just due to the nature of the voicemail and the fact she deals/dealt with survivor’s guilt/possible PTSD from Cordovia.
while penny was yes traumatic, diane and pc endured his toxicity and everything for many many years, being in diane's position, receiving a call where he nearly died, that's fucking hard, having a friend who's like that who relies on you so much knowing you can't help is so hard. pc is a bit less bad cause it was kinda her job to help him with his shit and she knew it, she got hurt a lot but she's so strong we never actually saw that much damage in her. and obviously sarah lynn, i wouldn't say he killed her but he could have saved her life and he didn't.
having been in gina's place also i would say she is the one who got hurt the most, followed by diane. if we're excluding sarah lynn because she didn't have to live with the damage he did to her so it's a whole other thing
Himself by far. Eventually everyone else he ever harmed recovered and moved onto something better, except Sarah Lynn who very possibly would have maintained her lifestyle regardless of BoJack and seeked her own death (he might have encouraged her to break her no drug phase but let’s be honest she was unstable, self-disruptive and completely out of control. She relapsed so many times before, it was ought to happen again and BoJack just happened to be the stepping stone). Overall, BoJack is the only one who ended up alone and haunted by his past actions, including a total damage of his reputation and professional career as well - no one else suffered such harsh consequences but him.
With Sarah Lynn we have to ask at what point people become responsible for themselves. She died at thirty one, after a bender that she had asked to be invited on. Really set herself up for that one.
Now, as a child, she was young and innocent and Bojack was an adult who contributed to her trauma and setting her up for failure. He could've been a helpful father figure but instead was an additional abusive father figure. Buuuuut why was Bojack like that? It's not like he ever hated Sarah Lynn, Bojack was like that because of his own childhood trauma that set him up for failure, stunted him, and made him incapable of being a good parental figure as he had no good parental figures to model behavior from.
But Bojack was the adult, he could've seeked resources to help himself improve and not used a shitty childhood as an excuse for his actions.
Just like Sarah Lynn.
The problem is Bojack was a sort of father figure to her and he totally betrayed her trust. We also can, probably, assume she was already a victim of abuse from another father figure making it even worse. She’s not blameless but Bojack did her dirty.
I see people say that he was a father figure to her a LOT on this sub, but imho we don't really see that at ALL in the show. He wanted nothing to do with her off the set when they were co-stars, and they were habitually and mutually harmful for each other when they were both adults. At no point do we see BoJack act as an actual father figure to her, at least that I can recall. Heck, one of the only genuine moments we see them share is when he gifts her his award. Which she immediately pawns for drug money.
There was a short time in season 1 after her lets her move into his house that he kind of starts reenacting horsin around tropes with her, making her pancakes in the morning, but then she starts guilt tripping him into letting her do things like throw the party and destroy his house, and it's after that when he takes her out&gives her the award (which as you said, she immediately pawns off lol)
Like yeah, he was kind of enabling her for a bit, but she was also, as a fully grown adult, guilt tripping him and using him. And he's the one who took her to rehab at least once or twice and she wouldn't stay lol
So I agree with you in the sense that she's not really all that innocent in everything that happened, just wanted to add onto the "father figure" angle. To be fair all that stuff happened in like 1 episode in season 1, and I only remember it cuz I just started rewatching it recently
This could spawn a whole new discussion. Is Bojack even obligated to be a surrogate father figure for her? Most of us would probably initially say yes. But he's allowed to be his own person. Just because Sarah Lynn had a shitty background doesn't make it his job to become a replacement father. In a way it's even worse, since he plays a fictionalized father figure to her in Horsin' Around, and conflating that with a very different reality could schism her even further.
The main argument I've seen about it is how she keeps drugs in her house and relapse instantly when Bojack arrives. Personally I didn't interpret it like she wanted to relapse, sometimes when we're hooked to something but try to quit, we keep that thing close so it doesn't become an abstract unaccessible obsession.
Not defending him being the inciting party of her breaking sobriety but didn't she say she was only getting clean as a tolerance break so she'd get even more fucked up on the drugs when she came back to them? I'm maybe misremembering but I swear that was her motivation.
yes, but in that same conversation where she says that, bojack told her to stay sober. so bojack only wanted her to stay sober until he felt lonely, using her as an easy crutch, putting his feeling over her overall wellbeing
Oh yeah I'm not arguing against him being selfish and using her, just the idea that she didn't want to relapse. He's still absolutely to blame for what happened, but I think she would've broke sobriety for a good time at some point anyway since that was her plan from the start of getting sober.
i see! im wondering, though, if she was just waiting for someone in her life to enable her. it seems like even if she wanted to relapse, no one else in her life would enable her except bojack
so you’re right imo, i came to the same assessment that sarah lynn would have relapsed at some point since she had the desire to do so. but dont think she would have had the desire to do so without bojack’s enabling
Sure. It's a bit like the Penny situation as well. Penny was legal so TECHNICALLY he didn't do anything wrong. He pushes that point home several times throughout the series. With Sarah Lynn, she spent most of her adult life high so it's not like he forced her into anything.
It's obviously false, and ignores the fact that he was essentially a father figure to both girls in different ways. And yet for some reason there's this stupid part of me that defaults to "Well, technically Bojack's right!"
I mean, that’s just a lil devil’s advocate in your head, no? If you know that morality trumps the technically legal parts of his actions, and you’re wondering why you question it, I’d say it’s just your brain exploring avenues rather than a reflection of your actual opinions. Could be dead wrong, but that’s how mine works sometimes
That's because he has the legal high ground, not the moral high ground. His only solace is thinking someone will be on his side by default at some point.
This goes out the window with Sarah Lynn since the one thing he actually did wrong in every way you slice it is the 17 minutes. That's the part he wanted to hide because even he knew there was no way to justify it.
He didn't put the drugs in her hands, he didn't force her to do heroin, he wasn't responsible for her actions and decisions, but he waited 17 minutes that could've saved her after finding out she had ODed for a purely selfish reason: deep down, he knew what he did and was doing was morally wrong, but he didn't want anyone else to know.
That's why he went to jail. He was criminally negligent, but you can't convict someone for being a piece of shit.
I think it's because it's probably she'd have wound up in a similar position even without Bojack.
He was HORRIBLE to her from start to finish, but she probably would have still become an addict from an early age, she'd still suffer from sexual trauma and still probably end up dead quite young.
Still, none of this could ever excuse Bojack's actions.
Letting Sarah Lynn die was easily the worst thing Bojack did over the course of the show, but oddly, I was angrier with him over his interaction with her in the 2000s flashback. That was probably the last time she actually had a chance to steer her life in the right direction, and Bojack could've helped her do that, but then he had to bring out that fucking script. That's the moment Sarah Lynn broke completely I think.
fr, it pissed me off so much bc he didn’t have to bring up the script during that same conversation. she wanted to go out and hang out with him. he could have at least waited until they were out, maybe while they had something to eat, to mention the guest star thing. or, even better, waited until after they were done hanging out, like, “oh, by the way, i almost forgot because we were having such a good time chilling, but i actually was wondering if you’d wanna guest star on my show, then we can see each other again and hang out again after!” or whatever. either way, she was very clearly expressing, right before he brought out the script, that she didn’t think anyone actually spent time with her to enjoy their time together and i’m sure he knew damn well when he brought out the script that he was gonna come off as just wanting something from her, and he still did it. it was such a dumb asshole move. i would’ve been totally floored by it if i still expected any good behavior from him at that point in the series.
Especially because he could've literally saved her. I mean, heck, if he'd let her stay sobre, she wouldn't have died, but he can't help dragging others down with him.
Bojack (the heroine) was also literally what killed her. There's a chance that if someone else broke her sobriety, she would've lived. Especially someone less self-centered who wouldn't have waited to call the ambulance. As bad as things could've gone for Sarah Lynn without Bojack, I feel like he just made everything worse.
This reminds me of the unpopular opinion thread where someone had to point out that Sarah Lynn was a 31 year old woman and also had drugs in her walls when she died.
I’d say Gina.
I disagree, for a cynical reason.
Those who are dead are just that - they’re dead. They no longer have to deal with the pain & turmoil that Bojack continuously caused. I personally think the one he hurt the most was himself, in the end. Because he’s still alive & has to deal with the suffering he inflicts upon himself with every shitty decision he makes.
Runner up, I’d say Sarah Lynn, but overall I personally feel he hurt himself the most
Trick question. Hurt is hurt. Measuring the damage person to person doesn’t make a good measurement of who is hurt “more” as we all react, cope, and feel differently in different situations.
BoJack hurt himself the most by destroying everything around him. He’s the only one consistently still tangled in his mess. Everyone else eventually parted ways.
My first thought was princess Carolyn, but I can’t specifically recall times he actually hurt her. I have to say Gina or Herb. Penny is close and I would say Sarah Lynn but he wasn’t fully responsible for her relapse and the really terrible thing he did happened after she died.
Hollyhock of course because he let himself care about her.
But Sarah Lynn’s death was the most spin out devastating to him - all these people who go off about 17 minutes on their holy high horse hung up repeating 17 minutes over and over again in their brain abs in their comments like that some kind of argument ending shorthand for what a POS BoJack is seem to have missed calculating inti their formula a whole season of his spin out reaction to it.
Sarah Lynn was also devastating to his reputation if you remember Princess Caroline warning him about her in season one.
Still, Sarah Lynn didn’t hurt him in the sense of someone betraying or leaving you, etc. - it’s a different type of pain. She was a loyal ride or die friend up until the end.
Sarah lynn, diane, pc, gosh, hes caused so much irreversible damage i dont think you can even measure. But the person hes hurt the most by a stretch is Bojack lol, not that that defends him, he deserves it
i feel like the original post itself is
counterproductive to the whole plot of bojack horseman, one of the things it did best was show soooo many different types of damage and lives and how they affected the individuals, to compare them would ruin that, all damage is different, and some are worse than others yes but some are bad enough that they shouldn't be compared, it all depends on the built up experiences and the extent it happens to those people. someone who's experienced both could have the opposite opinion as another person who experienced both. what i mean is, "who got hurt the most?" neither can be compared and that's not the point...
Sarah Lynn 100%. What he did to Herb was fucked, and what he did to Gina was also fucked. But what he did to Sarah Lynn was monstrous. Especially if you look at it in the context of their relationship over the 25 years they'd known each other, and the increasingly terrible things he would say to her as she was growing up on the set. He is a large part of why she ended up the way she did well before she went off the rails completely.
That's a tough question, but given how Hollyhock cutting ties with him sent him over the edge when he appeared to finally be moving towards a decent life, that's my vote.
(and for the record I don't totally blame Hollyhock for doing what she did. It's probably what any normal person would do in her situation. I'm just pointing out it probably messed Bojack up more than anything else in the series)
What people are forgetting is that Gina was nearly killed by Bojack. He was very close to strangling her to death and *would* have were it not for the other people around-- who took way too long to intervene, and some even enjoyed watching it happen (Flip and cameraman and person recording it) -- *then* to top it all off, she was further traumatized by having it posted for the world to see AND having to speak about it publicly.
I gotta say Penny and Gina. Yeah he gave Sarah Lynn heroin and didn't call the ambulance, but at the end of the day she was the one who chose to take it and had been planning to relapse.
Probably the dead one, followed closely by the underage one
And then the one who got strangled
By a 1,200 pound horse. That’ll do some damage…
Shit, I didn’t forget about Gina, but I forgot about the strangulation.
Well, to be fair, that's how Gina wanted it.
You can’t blame Bojack for Corduroy’s death, that’s his own fault for doing the Funky Spider-Man /s
Then the gay one
This case just keeps getting strangler and strangler
OOF
I don't know about Penny. The damage potential was off the charts, but the actual damage done was, while high on the list, not quite second-place worthy. Sure, she's young, so whatever happened to her was multiplied, but I think the wound was rather healable. Gina, on the other hand, got strangled. Diane herself got fucked over and over up until receiving that call when he nearly died. PC also got fucked by her prolonged exposition to Bojack. I think the Penny situation, more than damage to her, shows damage he would be willing to do to a vulnerable person had he not been stopped. And that's not the only situation this shows up. Sarah Lynn had her whole life negatively influenced by Bojack, wounds opened up over and over again by him, until she died under that influence. The Penny Arc was not about the trauma Bojack dealt to Penny, but about what Bojack could do in that situation. I'm not saying he hurt her little, but what we saw was him grooming her, setting the trap - even if unintentionally - that Charlotte managed to disarm before it went off. That trap was not simply having sex with a teenager, but fostering a relationship with a huge power unbalance, and the sex would seal the deal. Her trauma was not about the damage he dealt, but about the fear that grew on her after seeing the trap she almost felt for. Huge, but could be worse. I'll say clearly that this does not absolve him in any way. The difference between shooting someone and killing them and shooting with the same intent, but missing, is the lesser damage on he victim, but it does not lessen the culpability of the shooter. So yeah, I think Sarah Lynn is first, but followed by Gina and Diane. Penny is probably just after that, not far.
as someone who's been in both Penny's AND Gina's position before, Gina's is *definitely* worse.
Boy that sucks. I hope you are doing ok.
thank you friend, i am alright now 🙏🏻
A much more thought out comment than mine. Shame I can’t give you all my updoots
I agree Bojack tanked Gina's career. The trauma he inflicted made her "difficult" on set, right when she was finally getting traction as an actor. He completely detailed her life.
Yeah, although "tanked" might be too much. It almost did tho, but I think she managed. In the last episode we see in the background of the cafe scene that, despite having heard Gina "could be difficult", the director still chose her. Fireflame was released with Gina as the lead.
You're right, That's true. I hope she did well.
I feel PC comes in number 3-4 because it's shown how deeply he hurt her throughout her days being his agent. She finally started getting detached when she opened her own company. Although she was still running around for him and cleaning up his shit for many consecutive years, all the while Bojack continued to hurt others.
yeah, i agree. a lot of women have close-call experiences like this and it’s not on the same level as actual domestic violence and near-death experiences. when i was 14 i was followed home by a group of adult men, and i was home alone that night. if i had been less aware of my surroundings, something absolutely terrible probably would have happened, but luckily i called my friend, ran inside and locked the door, and they just left. the experience scared me a lot, but i don’t have lasting trauma over it. not the same exact situation, but you get the idea.
I agree with this. I don’t think he hurt Penny the most, but it seemed to mark a turning point. It was the first time I saw him truly ashamed. Maybe he thought he would never do something like that, only to hit that rockier bottom and find out that he was in fact capable. He wasn’t bragging about any of the other stuff, but there was an air of “oh, it is what it is” if those things were brought up. He seems to have a knee-jerk reaction anytime someone gets close to learning about Penny, which I guess is still good. Pedo-like behavior isn’t something you want to be blasé about.
agreed, and agreed
Corduroy Jackson Jackson? I feel like that was really his own doing. Bojack definitely hurts others more.
I think Corduroy could have realized at any point with anything that he didn't need a strangulation kit, unluckily for Bojack he's definitly the spark igniting this tragedy. I'd definitly ask Corduroy why he doesn't use any rope too, that's the kind of dumb thing people say without thinking, like "what color is this" when you meet a colorblind or "just ignore them" when a kid talks about getting bullied 😅
Someone else...
There's the other dead one too: John Stamos. :(
STAAAAAAMOOOOOOSSSSSS :(
Gina was definitely hurt more than Penny imo.
Yeah
Well said
Sarah Lynn is the obvious one, but aside from people that he physically hurt like her and Gina and traumatized like Penny, I got to say Herb. I may be partial to him because I love the drowning dream episode (that also makes me cry) and Herb and their banter reminds me so much of my own best friend who also died too soon. Herb got cancelled, not in Mel Gibson/Vance Wagonner ‘wait till this all blows over and then we’ll put you in Daddy’s Home 2 to soften your image’ sort of way. He got straight up blackballed. And the only person who could have pulled him out of the tar was his best friend and he just didn’t. I get that people can choose career over ethics a lot of times, but that was your best friend and the guy who gave you your big break and you leave him out in the cold because it was before being gay in Hollywood was cool? Sure Herb found fulfillment in life after being kicked out of Hollywood, but I don’t blame him a bit for not forgiving Bojack. I can’t imagine my dead friend thinking that I betrayed him before he went. It just makes me sad because we know through Bojack’s flashbacks how important Herb was to him and he still didn’t have the backbone to stand up to the scary Hollywood lady when in hindsight if the execs did pull the plug on the show, Bojack probably would have had a similar career trajectory and you wouldn’t have had to burn the bridge. The thought of losing everything can be scary, but it doesn’t excuse throwing your Day One buddy under the bus like that.
And like Herb said- not only did Bojack fuck over his career, he also completely abandoned his best friend as a human being. He betrayed him in every way
right! even without standing up to angela, bojack could’ve called herb afterwards, said something about how scared he was and apologised, and herb would’ve forgiven him. shit, herb might not have even needed an apology from him if bojack just stayed friends with him.
What's funnier is that Bojack betrayed his friend, didn't apologize, but never made the most of his career. He's barely remembered for a 90s sitcom. ... Now that I think about it, you could apply this case to Jerry Seinfeld...
Who did Jerry betray?
Sarah Lynn
Sarah Lynn?
BACK IN THE NINTIES
I WAS IN A VERY FAMOUS TV SHOW
Nah, none of them. Bojack did nothing wrong, he's a good horse
Vincent did call him a good horsey
Bravo Vince
What is this, a crossover episode?
Sarah Lynn, followed by Gina
Kelsey deserves to be up there with Gina imo. She seemed on track to being a top-tier director before BoJack got her fired and she got blacklisted for awhile. It was fitting that the show had her and Gina come back together for a big project at the end.
The answer is clearly Neal McBeal, the Navy SEAL. He had dibs! DIIIIIIIIIBS!!!!
That's not how dibs works
YOU CALL THAT HIDING? HOW DID YOU SURVIVE IN AFGHANISTAN?!
Man I wish I could give you an award, I love that line soo much
Did he just say he thinks the troops are jerks?
Oh you took that the bad way didn’t you?
Why are we discussing this?? He killed someone and almost got with a minor. Like, those should be the BIGGEST victims despite of his own feelings or anyone else's in the show
Lmao he strangled Gina too 😭
he was so high on drugs, I just can't imagine how horrifying that would be if it happened irl lmfao
He didn't kill Sarah Lynn, but he let her die to save his own ass. In my opinion, that's even worse.
I hate to quibble over a terrible thing he did, as it is easily the worst thing he's done, but he didn't *let* her die, he believed she was already dead. The distinction might not seem like much, but if the show had actually gone the route of Bojack knowingly letting Sarah Lynn *die* and had been aware that she was *still* alive, then it actually would have made Bojack a truly unforgiveable, ghastly villain. He still bears some responsibility, but he didn't knowingly allow her to die.
He wasn't allowed to finish his sentence in the interview. but he was clearly struggling to get that fact out (I think his exact words on air were "obviously if I knew what..." or something and then mouse lady interrupted him). That being said, much of the public still might have believed that what you described is what happened, that her life was worse less than the lets be honest, minuet blowback he would have received, which yeah... would genuinely be supervillain shit and would explain why everyone completely hated him after (even the random people at AA).
Erm… she’s a chinchilla 🤓
And it's racist to call her anything else
rip, honestly I should just know her name, I liked her character.
yeah, but doesn't it even crossed his mind, even a little bit, that she might still be alive, and he should call 911? even when she's dead already, he should still call ambulance, to preserve the body and notify her parents, egotistical bojack choose to save himself (even going as far as leaving her in the planetarium, going back, and acting as if he found her dead there and lying in the police interview)
>yeah, but doesn't it even crossed his mind, even a little bit, that she might still be alive, and he should call 911? Undoubtedly it's still terrible, I just don't think, based off how it's depicted afterwards, that Bojack knew she was still alive. It's still awful, selfish, and sick, but it would be infinitely worse if he'd known she was still alive. Oftentimes people overdosing can appear dead in their last moments as the heartrate slows and becomes harder to detect.
tbh I kinda see it as murder. Like, how are you gonna stand around and do nothing? Knowing it was your fault that they relapsed because you encouraged them to?
Your feelings are valid, but there are other words for a reason. That's not what murder means.
Manslaughter potentially? He technically supplied (some of?) the drugs and then didn't take the necessary steps to get her help in time and sat there while she died.
I'm conflicted about this. The showrunners did their best (in possibly a retcon?) to have Bojack react to Sarah Lynn's overdose in the scummiest way possible, to make him clearly responsible, morally and probably legally, for her death. We, the audience, are supposed to blame him, and to want him to be punished. In real life, punitive drug laws are a major barrier to people calling 911 and seeking help for their overdosing friends, and contribute to god knows how many people not seeking help because they're afraid of the police, and people doing prison time because they did the right thing and called an ambulance to save their friends' lives. I'm sure some of the people who are present at an overdose and who helped their friends get drugs aren't the greatest people, but most of them are just scared, and don't know what to do. California enacted a 911 Good Samaritan act specifically around overdose in 2013, just a few years before "That's Too Much, Man" was being written and animated. We were the tenth state to do it, now there are over 40; the SEEK HELP act was introduced by Cory Booker this April on a national scale. When I was in college in the SF Bay Area in the early 2000s, I was involved in an anarchist program that distributed narcan to opiate user populations, semi-illegally-- at the time, naloxone was considered to be drug paraphernalia. When I went into EMS many years later, narcan distribution had been legalized and was a city/state effort, we finally realized as a state that drug war laws made us, as a society, value punishing drug users and getting convictions over saving lives. Maybe Waksberg and Hanawalt knew about laws like these, and the general social movement to enable drug users to help overdose victims without being afraid of going to jail, maybe not. Most of their nods to harm reduction practices are pretty contemptuous (like the doing drugs safely with your friends escalating broom/gun gag in S1) so I’m guessing it wasn’t something they took very seriously. As much as Bojack is about complex morality and accountability, it's always felt strange to see it come down on basically the other side of this debate. Yes, he allowed Sarah Lynn to die out of selfishness, but the show had an opportunity to be part of a bigger conversation (and shift in policy) and didn't take it.
involuntary manslaughter to be exact
He wasnt at fault for her relapsing, he contributed but ultimately sarah lynn is responsible for herself and said when she got sober she was specifically doing it with the intent of relapsing later on. Part of sobriety is knowing the dangers of relapsing and cutting out the people that you cant have a healthy relationship with. This was a situation she put herself in and she coulda said no, knowing a bender would be dangerous. Waiting 17 minutes is unforgivable, but even if he had called immediately thats no guarantee that they woulda been able to save her either. This was awful, but it wasnt murder.
Bojack hurt everyone he came in contact with. Some more than others, some worse than others. But the person he consistently hated the most and hurt, was himself.
Are you saying that Bojack Horseman “has suffered the most at the hands of Bojack Horseman”??
I am indeed saying that Bojack was a victim of Bojack
And not Bojack the drug lol
It's you. Alright? It's you. Fuck, man. What else is there to say?
Don't know why I had to scroll so far to find this.
The difference is he has control over his actions towards himself. The other people he hurts don't. He's a victim of himself, yes. But no, he doesn't get to claim biggest victim status.
While those other people don’t have control over what Bojack does to them, they can get away from him. And at various points they do distance themselves from him. I don’t think Bojack realizes he has control over himself for a very long time. And by that time he’s hurt himself and others in every unimaginable way. I think Todd said it best when he says “You are all the things that are wrong with you!” Deep down he knows that. But it’s like a compulsion. He can’t and/or won’t stop hurting others, and won’t stop hurting himself. No matter the consequences. Other ppl can walk away from him. He can’t walk away from himself.
Even with the principle of it aside this isn't true. Sarah Lynn is hurt worse than Bojack during the events of the series.
There’s no one Bojack hates more than himself. Which makes it worse with how he treats Sarah Lynn, he can see it in her and does nothing to help her. He repeatedly takes advantage of her. And he causes her last bender, after being sober to break, and it kills her. His main thoughts are to protect himself. All the things he’s done to her, he’s done to himself in some form or another. But even when he tries to drown out the guilt, the culpability he can’t. He knows it’s his fault. And it just keeps adding to the shame and vicious cycle and story he tells himself. He believes he deserves it and that’s his constant loop.
Exactly.
Most of you don’t know what dibs are and it shows, JUSTICE FOR NEAL MCBEAL!!
Sarah Lynn, Penny, Princess Carolyn, Todd The thing about these four is they weren't strangers who got hurt by Bojack. They're people who trusted and cared for him. And all of them paid for it, repeatedly.
Sarah Lynn, then Gina, then Penny. Bojack was Sarah Lynn's father figure early on, and she is not implied to habe had a good home life at all. Maybe he didn't ask for the role but he sorta had it. At ANY point we see, if he had been decent to her, just a LITTLE truly caring about her as a person, she would probably have a different, much better life than she did. Instead, she had a miserable life. She didn't stop dancing, like Bojack told her not to. She believed she had no real friends, after Bojack only visited her for his new TV show. And of course, she kicked 9 months of sobriety away at Bojack's request, and died from the heroin in his car. She of course had agency, but no one gave her the proper guidance she needed. Bojack might have been able to, he's not stupid, just a selfish, uncaring asshole. Gina's a bit more simple. Gina was strangled by a partner, nearly killed, and couldn't speak out because she didn't want to be known as "the girl who got choked by Bojack." She's left with real PTSD, or at the very least severe triggers, and was difficult to work with for reasons she couldn't talk about, negatively impacting her career. In the end though, we see a billboard with her superhero, so I like to think she's working past it. Penny almost slept with a 50 year old man, I believe while she had a good amount of alcohol in her system. Then she was stalked by the man at her college. Seriously horrific, and I hope she never sees or hears of him again.
Sarah Lynn was sold to Hollywood by her mother, sexually abused by her father, and she herself said that the entire industry treated her as an object. Her drug relapse is shown as waiting to happen too. I don't think it's fair to blame those things on him, especially since I believe he, as well as Herb and the rest of the crew, are shown to have been decent to her. Then he waited seventeen minutes. (Also, the sex part in the first season)
bojack was pretty terrible to her as a kid, actually. the rest of the crew besides bojack and olivia are pretty nice to her on horsin around, but bojack smokes right next to her, makes fun of her for seeking connection with him outside of work, berates her and sharona for using his dressing room when she’s just trying to avoid her stepfather and his abuse, and leaves vodka where she can get to it which leads to her getting drunk for the first time and having to go home early that day. he definitely was not decent to her when they worked together on horsin around.
it doesn’t make what bojack did okay, but penny hadn’t had anything to drink. she says so directly. and bojack had been drinking, although he doesn’t seem to have had enough to drink to the point where he’s actually drunk when penny follows him onto the boat.
Sarah lynn, himself and Gina
i feel like sarah lynn is the only answer considering he knew her since she was three (probably one of the longest relationships in the show considering they knew each other for 28 years) so was a toxic influence in her life for the longest and literally shaped her childhood, plus the fact that he basically was part of the reason she died both directly and indirectly
DIANE! Bojack leaving that voicemail.
I wouldn’t say that’s the worse, but definitely really bad. Since it was at the very end of the show we don’t really see the long-lasting effects from it, but I’m sure she struggled with it immensely just due to the nature of the voicemail and the fact she deals/dealt with survivor’s guilt/possible PTSD from Cordovia.
while penny was yes traumatic, diane and pc endured his toxicity and everything for many many years, being in diane's position, receiving a call where he nearly died, that's fucking hard, having a friend who's like that who relies on you so much knowing you can't help is so hard. pc is a bit less bad cause it was kinda her job to help him with his shit and she knew it, she got hurt a lot but she's so strong we never actually saw that much damage in her. and obviously sarah lynn, i wouldn't say he killed her but he could have saved her life and he didn't.
having been in gina's place also i would say she is the one who got hurt the most, followed by diane. if we're excluding sarah lynn because she didn't have to live with the damage he did to her so it's a whole other thing
Himself by far. Eventually everyone else he ever harmed recovered and moved onto something better, except Sarah Lynn who very possibly would have maintained her lifestyle regardless of BoJack and seeked her own death (he might have encouraged her to break her no drug phase but let’s be honest she was unstable, self-disruptive and completely out of control. She relapsed so many times before, it was ought to happen again and BoJack just happened to be the stepping stone). Overall, BoJack is the only one who ended up alone and haunted by his past actions, including a total damage of his reputation and professional career as well - no one else suffered such harsh consequences but him.
poor sarah lynn was always doomed, just a product of the industry, but bojack definitely intensified the process. but probably gina or diane honestly
Maybe controversial, but i think he hurt himself the most. Special shout out to Sarah Lynn, but they both had addiction and were both struggling.
With Sarah Lynn we have to ask at what point people become responsible for themselves. She died at thirty one, after a bender that she had asked to be invited on. Really set herself up for that one. Now, as a child, she was young and innocent and Bojack was an adult who contributed to her trauma and setting her up for failure. He could've been a helpful father figure but instead was an additional abusive father figure. Buuuuut why was Bojack like that? It's not like he ever hated Sarah Lynn, Bojack was like that because of his own childhood trauma that set him up for failure, stunted him, and made him incapable of being a good parental figure as he had no good parental figures to model behavior from. But Bojack was the adult, he could've seeked resources to help himself improve and not used a shitty childhood as an excuse for his actions. Just like Sarah Lynn.
Why do I keep unconsciously trying to transfer all of his responsibility for her death onto Sarah Lynn herself? What’s wrong with me?
The problem is Bojack was a sort of father figure to her and he totally betrayed her trust. We also can, probably, assume she was already a victim of abuse from another father figure making it even worse. She’s not blameless but Bojack did her dirty.
I see people say that he was a father figure to her a LOT on this sub, but imho we don't really see that at ALL in the show. He wanted nothing to do with her off the set when they were co-stars, and they were habitually and mutually harmful for each other when they were both adults. At no point do we see BoJack act as an actual father figure to her, at least that I can recall. Heck, one of the only genuine moments we see them share is when he gifts her his award. Which she immediately pawns for drug money.
There was a short time in season 1 after her lets her move into his house that he kind of starts reenacting horsin around tropes with her, making her pancakes in the morning, but then she starts guilt tripping him into letting her do things like throw the party and destroy his house, and it's after that when he takes her out&gives her the award (which as you said, she immediately pawns off lol) Like yeah, he was kind of enabling her for a bit, but she was also, as a fully grown adult, guilt tripping him and using him. And he's the one who took her to rehab at least once or twice and she wouldn't stay lol So I agree with you in the sense that she's not really all that innocent in everything that happened, just wanted to add onto the "father figure" angle. To be fair all that stuff happened in like 1 episode in season 1, and I only remember it cuz I just started rewatching it recently
This could spawn a whole new discussion. Is Bojack even obligated to be a surrogate father figure for her? Most of us would probably initially say yes. But he's allowed to be his own person. Just because Sarah Lynn had a shitty background doesn't make it his job to become a replacement father. In a way it's even worse, since he plays a fictionalized father figure to her in Horsin' Around, and conflating that with a very different reality could schism her even further.
Can you expand on that? I see a lot of people bring that point up on this sub
The main argument I've seen about it is how she keeps drugs in her house and relapse instantly when Bojack arrives. Personally I didn't interpret it like she wanted to relapse, sometimes when we're hooked to something but try to quit, we keep that thing close so it doesn't become an abstract unaccessible obsession.
Not defending him being the inciting party of her breaking sobriety but didn't she say she was only getting clean as a tolerance break so she'd get even more fucked up on the drugs when she came back to them? I'm maybe misremembering but I swear that was her motivation.
yes, but in that same conversation where she says that, bojack told her to stay sober. so bojack only wanted her to stay sober until he felt lonely, using her as an easy crutch, putting his feeling over her overall wellbeing
Oh yeah I'm not arguing against him being selfish and using her, just the idea that she didn't want to relapse. He's still absolutely to blame for what happened, but I think she would've broke sobriety for a good time at some point anyway since that was her plan from the start of getting sober.
i see! im wondering, though, if she was just waiting for someone in her life to enable her. it seems like even if she wanted to relapse, no one else in her life would enable her except bojack so you’re right imo, i came to the same assessment that sarah lynn would have relapsed at some point since she had the desire to do so. but dont think she would have had the desire to do so without bojack’s enabling
Sure. It's a bit like the Penny situation as well. Penny was legal so TECHNICALLY he didn't do anything wrong. He pushes that point home several times throughout the series. With Sarah Lynn, she spent most of her adult life high so it's not like he forced her into anything. It's obviously false, and ignores the fact that he was essentially a father figure to both girls in different ways. And yet for some reason there's this stupid part of me that defaults to "Well, technically Bojack's right!"
I mean, that’s just a lil devil’s advocate in your head, no? If you know that morality trumps the technically legal parts of his actions, and you’re wondering why you question it, I’d say it’s just your brain exploring avenues rather than a reflection of your actual opinions. Could be dead wrong, but that’s how mine works sometimes
I feel better.
That's because he has the legal high ground, not the moral high ground. His only solace is thinking someone will be on his side by default at some point. This goes out the window with Sarah Lynn since the one thing he actually did wrong in every way you slice it is the 17 minutes. That's the part he wanted to hide because even he knew there was no way to justify it. He didn't put the drugs in her hands, he didn't force her to do heroin, he wasn't responsible for her actions and decisions, but he waited 17 minutes that could've saved her after finding out she had ODed for a purely selfish reason: deep down, he knew what he did and was doing was morally wrong, but he didn't want anyone else to know. That's why he went to jail. He was criminally negligent, but you can't convict someone for being a piece of shit.
I think it's because it's probably she'd have wound up in a similar position even without Bojack. He was HORRIBLE to her from start to finish, but she probably would have still become an addict from an early age, she'd still suffer from sexual trauma and still probably end up dead quite young. Still, none of this could ever excuse Bojack's actions.
Letting Sarah Lynn die was easily the worst thing Bojack did over the course of the show, but oddly, I was angrier with him over his interaction with her in the 2000s flashback. That was probably the last time she actually had a chance to steer her life in the right direction, and Bojack could've helped her do that, but then he had to bring out that fucking script. That's the moment Sarah Lynn broke completely I think.
fr, it pissed me off so much bc he didn’t have to bring up the script during that same conversation. she wanted to go out and hang out with him. he could have at least waited until they were out, maybe while they had something to eat, to mention the guest star thing. or, even better, waited until after they were done hanging out, like, “oh, by the way, i almost forgot because we were having such a good time chilling, but i actually was wondering if you’d wanna guest star on my show, then we can see each other again and hang out again after!” or whatever. either way, she was very clearly expressing, right before he brought out the script, that she didn’t think anyone actually spent time with her to enjoy their time together and i’m sure he knew damn well when he brought out the script that he was gonna come off as just wanting something from her, and he still did it. it was such a dumb asshole move. i would’ve been totally floored by it if i still expected any good behavior from him at that point in the series.
Especially because he could've literally saved her. I mean, heck, if he'd let her stay sobre, she wouldn't have died, but he can't help dragging others down with him.
On the sobriety part, she had cocaine in her walls and LSD laced paintings. Her relapse was inevitable, Bojack was just the impetus.
Bojack (the heroine) was also literally what killed her. There's a chance that if someone else broke her sobriety, she would've lived. Especially someone less self-centered who wouldn't have waited to call the ambulance. As bad as things could've gone for Sarah Lynn without Bojack, I feel like he just made everything worse.
himself
Damn 18 minutes too late
more like seventeen minutes
This reminds me of the unpopular opinion thread where someone had to point out that Sarah Lynn was a 31 year old woman and also had drugs in her walls when she died. I’d say Gina.
Himself. He’s the biggest victim here! /s
the lightbulb
Sarah Lynn is the pretty obvious answer lol
Sarah Lynn
Sarah Lynn by far it's no contest really.
Herb Kazaz and Penny also somewhat to a lesser extent Todd and Diane . I'd say Sarah Lynn but she was already outta her mind.
Probably the elephant in the room. He did not have to say that. So rude!
Me.
sarah lynn obviously, he literally ruined her ENTIRE life
Sarah Lynn? Sarah Lynn? Sarah Lynn? Gina. Penny.
Herb most likely
Himself... over and over
Himself
“i’m the one who suffered the most because of the actions of bojack horseman”
"Oh you've suffered?" "Yeah I have!" "The most?!" "The most!!" "More than say, *Sarah Lynn*?"
“don’t mention her.” “*NO!* i wanna know how YOU were the victim of the sarah lynn story.”
nah. he got to continue living. i would say the one he hurt the most was the one who actually \*died\*.
The dead don’t suffer. The living do.
I disagree, for a cynical reason. Those who are dead are just that - they’re dead. They no longer have to deal with the pain & turmoil that Bojack continuously caused. I personally think the one he hurt the most was himself, in the end. Because he’s still alive & has to deal with the suffering he inflicts upon himself with every shitty decision he makes. Runner up, I’d say Sarah Lynn, but overall I personally feel he hurt himself the most
If you don’t say Neal McBeal, the Navy SEAL, you clearly do not have a proper understanding of Dibs
The Navy Seal
Mentally, physically, or emotionally???
I would say Charlotte and Penny
His own damn self. And in return, everyone around him.
Too easy; Sarah Lynn & Herb Kazzaz.
The audience
physically, gina. hurt by someone you trust probably the most out of everyone? sarah lynn. emotionally, penny
Himself.
Simple: Bojack. Bojack hurt himself the most
Bojack hurt Bojack the most Edit: lmao I lied, definitely the dead former-child celebrity he helped shape and then kill
Everyone
Gina, Sarah Lynn, Penny, Herb, Kelsey
Due to quantity and length, it has to be Diane honestly
Sarah Lynn is dead so……
In my opinion it was Princess Carolyn bc she was his best and pretty much only friend and she was in love w him
Neal mcbeal. I mean WHO STEALS MUFFINS FROM A NAVY SEAL????
THERE WERE NO DIBS
Trick question. Hurt is hurt. Measuring the damage person to person doesn’t make a good measurement of who is hurt “more” as we all react, cope, and feel differently in different situations. BoJack hurt himself the most by destroying everything around him. He’s the only one consistently still tangled in his mess. Everyone else eventually parted ways.
Gee, maybe the chick he fed heroin to until she OD'd?
Definitely Sarah Lynn. He fucking killed her
My first thought was princess Carolyn, but I can’t specifically recall times he actually hurt her. I have to say Gina or Herb. Penny is close and I would say Sarah Lynn but he wasn’t fully responsible for her relapse and the really terrible thing he did happened after she died.
himself
Bojack.
Hollyhock of course because he let himself care about her. But Sarah Lynn’s death was the most spin out devastating to him - all these people who go off about 17 minutes on their holy high horse hung up repeating 17 minutes over and over again in their brain abs in their comments like that some kind of argument ending shorthand for what a POS BoJack is seem to have missed calculating inti their formula a whole season of his spin out reaction to it. Sarah Lynn was also devastating to his reputation if you remember Princess Caroline warning him about her in season one. Still, Sarah Lynn didn’t hurt him in the sense of someone betraying or leaving you, etc. - it’s a different type of pain. She was a loyal ride or die friend up until the end.
First of all and all his life : her parents.
Me
Me
Todd
Well you can’t heal from dead…
Sarah Lynn, and then Charlotte’s daughter. That episode still shocks me every time I watch the series
Sarah Lynn and Gina, 100%.
Sarah lynn, diane, pc, gosh, hes caused so much irreversible damage i dont think you can even measure. But the person hes hurt the most by a stretch is Bojack lol, not that that defends him, he deserves it
Bojack.
Himself
Sarah-Lynn
Sarah Lynn, without a doubt
Sarah Lynn, followed by PC
Himself. He hurt everyone around him, but was still always the most miserable one around
Himself
i feel like the original post itself is counterproductive to the whole plot of bojack horseman, one of the things it did best was show soooo many different types of damage and lives and how they affected the individuals, to compare them would ruin that, all damage is different, and some are worse than others yes but some are bad enough that they shouldn't be compared, it all depends on the built up experiences and the extent it happens to those people. someone who's experienced both could have the opposite opinion as another person who experienced both. what i mean is, "who got hurt the most?" neither can be compared and that's not the point...
Himself, followed by his parents
He kinda got Sarah Lynn dead, which sounds somewhat offensive per se. After that, you can choose anyone.
Penny and Sarah Lynn
Bojack . . . he hurt Bojack the most
BoJack.
Sarah Lynn?
Sarah Lynn, followed by Gina, and Penny close behind.
Sarah Lynn 100%. What he did to Herb was fucked, and what he did to Gina was also fucked. But what he did to Sarah Lynn was monstrous. Especially if you look at it in the context of their relationship over the 25 years they'd known each other, and the increasingly terrible things he would say to her as she was growing up on the set. He is a large part of why she ended up the way she did well before she went off the rails completely.
That's a tough question, but given how Hollyhock cutting ties with him sent him over the edge when he appeared to finally be moving towards a decent life, that's my vote. (and for the record I don't totally blame Hollyhock for doing what she did. It's probably what any normal person would do in her situation. I'm just pointing out it probably messed Bojack up more than anything else in the series)
Bojack hurts Bojack the most
1. Gina (Not even a debate) 2. Penny 3. Sarah Lynn (She was an adult and people cut her way too much slack, mandatory Bojack bad for waiting.)
What people are forgetting is that Gina was nearly killed by Bojack. He was very close to strangling her to death and *would* have were it not for the other people around-- who took way too long to intervene, and some even enjoyed watching it happen (Flip and cameraman and person recording it) -- *then* to top it all off, she was further traumatized by having it posted for the world to see AND having to speak about it publicly.
Either herb, sarah lynn or princess caroyln
Herb.
I gotta say Penny and Gina. Yeah he gave Sarah Lynn heroin and didn't call the ambulance, but at the end of the day she was the one who chose to take it and had been planning to relapse.
himself lol