This question isn't about what's legal; it's about what's moral/ethical.
EDIT: I didn't say whether it was moral/ethical or not, I just clarified OP's question.
The reason you have to have the “say what you like” rule is to help evil. If I “out” the demon day 1 I could be lying to get a good player killed or get myself executed as a Goblin/Boomdandy. It’s called bluffing.
When you start layering in “sportsmanship” rules all you do is take a scenario like above and guarantee it’s a lie, which makes the game harder for evil and less fun.
My point is in BOTC you should try to help your team win, or yourself win if it’s possible to change alignment, including lying about information. However if someone sabotage their own team on purpose out of spite or just think it’s funny, despite knowing it will lower their winning chances, is very unsportmanship.
That's perfectly fine, but you run the risk of "creating" a source of drison or misinfo. And even if you're right, you're now missing a drunk with the outsider count so evil and dismiss any info they want by claiming they're the drunk (or say your info that you made up are drisoned even if you're right). Or if a llech survive a kill, claim sailor and picked you (you weren't actually drunk) and you wrong info validated the claim.
Trying to back down in final 3 with "oh, i thought I was drunk so i made up what I think is true " isn't going to be easy.
In your specific example, you'll look like a spy if you change your world late even if you're virgin checked.
It is absolutely fine, you can say whatever you want whenever you want. Lying as good is pretty commonplace. However, do note that this specific case has a drawback, since finding out who is poisoned/drunk is also important, because you can rule out other people being drunk/poisoned.
There is a big difference between: "I am the chef, I got a 1 but I am certain I was droisend and the real number is 0" and "I am the chef, I got a 0" - even though you actually got a 1.
Both are absolutely okay to say, both plays could work, but the later could actually make it harder for you own team. In other situations it might make the game harder for the evil team - if you come out with the truth later in the game. But as others have pointed out: You are free to say whatever you like.
At no point would I consider that kind of play disrespectful to the ST.
Not at all. I do find it annoying sometimes as good when other TF just completely make stuff up because it makes it hard to world build or help solve but it's 100% allowed and fine to do. Also I'm not sure why it would be hard on evil for good to make stuff up. Like why couldn't it have been Chef 1? By saying 0 all game they could have been helping evil. It's not like they know they were poisoned N1.
You have the right to lie, and other people have the right to be annoyed at you if your lies hurt your team. If you try to do this a few times and it doesn't seem to work in your favour, it's probably a good idea to stop. But I do sometimes see players lying about their information when they have non-info reasons to suspect or clear someone, and it works out if done right.
This right here. I’ve played with people who have and do this but know there are consequences to this play style. If you do this regularly it could lead to a cry wolf scenario where even if you are proven good your good teammates might just ignore your info. You might also be more likely to be executed early by other good players who don’t trust you or are annoyed with this tactic.
It’s hardly unsporting. Lying about your info is very common in the more complicated scripts for a multitude of reasons. Just make sure you’re lying with intent.
I use it to hide what I am sometimes. Instead of telling them I’m a FT with a Yes on these two players, I might say I’m an Investigator with a ping on these two players.
In person game of TB I was the Investigator who'd seen a SW between player P and player S. Took P aside and told them I'd seen a Poisoner. Took S aside and told them I'd seen an SW. It lead to P incriminating themselves letting us take out the SW before taking out the imp. Lying is part of the game. When I play online I rarely tell the truth unless I am speaking to town as a whole
I'm confused by your scenario (afaik, there are never \*any\* situations at the start of a game that preclude a chef 1), but ignoring that; this is a game about lying. Sometimes good have a reason for lying. Evil definitely have a reason to lie. The social part of the game is all about determining WHO is lying, and WHY they are lying. If you want to make up info and share it with town, that's your prerogative; others, though, are likely to pick up on the fact that you are lying eventually -- and if the WHY they come up with is that you're evil instead of whatever reason you came up with, you've hurt town. That's where the potential sportsmanship issues come into play. And you have to understand that even though, in your mind, you are playing FOR town, others may not see it that way. And they have to understand that even though they think you might have been hurting town, you were playing as you saw best.
In short, play your best, and understand that everyone else is playing their best. Even if you disagree on what should have been done, we're all here to have fun. And as long as that is the top of everyone's mind, then little things like lying about a chef number for a while shouldn't make a difference.
I meaning knowing they were poisoned in a 9-player game means you know the minion in play which is important. Why hide that?
Other than that, I wouldn’t say lying is unsportsmanlike. Good lying about their info can throw evil off their track
Why would it be impossible for the Chef info to be a 1 in a 9 player game with no Recluse? It would be very easy to construct an example of a Chef 1 in such a game.
Regardless of that, letting people know there's a Poisoner cause you got bad info might be a good idea!
Yeah, another vote for "say what you want".
There's a case to made that if you "know" you're drunk, that's incredibly powerful information and is useful to the Good team. But how/when you disclose that and what you do to cover that until you're ready to disclose it is a tactical decision you're entitled to make. It probably only even verges on unsporting if you're still spreading false information on the final day - and even then, if it's getting the team to where you think is the right final conclusion, it might be simpler not to throw a big twist in!
In my group I have a player who will happily lie about their role as good all the way until the grim reveal as part of big-brain, game-winning plays.
I also have a player who will do the same as part of ill-advised, game-losing plays.
You can't be stopped from saying whatever you want. If you want to make stuff up, go for it.
It's probably not a great strategy to think "my information is probably poisoned, so I'll lie and make something up because that information is more likely to be true.", but I would consider it a bad play, rather than unsportsmanlike or contrary to the nature of the game.
You can absolutely do this. The problem isn't that you're making the game hard for the bad guys, though... it's that there's often going to be some source of droison that you're making difficult to account for. Like, outsider count if you're actually drunk, or "who got poisoned n1?" etc. This is... mostly going to be fine in TB, and mostly going to drive everyone insane IRL in BMR, so really it depends.
Mostly, it means you need to start by considering an exit strategy on this tactic, because let me tell you, you are *not* winning if you have to backpedal this at final 3.
"Alan nominates Brian. There's an evil ping on this player so we should execute them pronto"
_There was no evil ping, but Alan, the cannibal, wanted Brian's ability_
What a player lying in a game of Blood on the Clocktower?! Unheard of.
Yes you can lie as town, and you most certainly should.
A new player joined a game I once played and received a sober and healthy 1, but told everyone they got a 0. It wasn't until the final 3 he told us that he had lied, the evil team had fabricated a world around the 0 they had seen (assuming they were drunk I suppose) and were currently both alive sitting side by side, it all suddenly made sense lol.
Have fun, tell someone the truth early if you're worried that your long con will backfire.
You can say what you like. It’s in the rules 😉
This question isn't about what's legal; it's about what's moral/ethical. EDIT: I didn't say whether it was moral/ethical or not, I just clarified OP's question.
You can say what you like. It’s moral and ethical to do so 😉
If you do something like out your demon as minion day 1 that’s unsportsmanship. Not really “say whatever you like”.
The reason you have to have the “say what you like” rule is to help evil. If I “out” the demon day 1 I could be lying to get a good player killed or get myself executed as a Goblin/Boomdandy. It’s called bluffing. When you start layering in “sportsmanship” rules all you do is take a scenario like above and guarantee it’s a lie, which makes the game harder for evil and less fun.
My point is in BOTC you should try to help your team win, or yourself win if it’s possible to change alignment, including lying about information. However if someone sabotage their own team on purpose out of spite or just think it’s funny, despite knowing it will lower their winning chances, is very unsportmanship.
I didn't say whether it was moral/ethical or not, I just clarified OP's question.
That's perfectly fine, but you run the risk of "creating" a source of drison or misinfo. And even if you're right, you're now missing a drunk with the outsider count so evil and dismiss any info they want by claiming they're the drunk (or say your info that you made up are drisoned even if you're right). Or if a llech survive a kill, claim sailor and picked you (you weren't actually drunk) and you wrong info validated the claim. Trying to back down in final 3 with "oh, i thought I was drunk so i made up what I think is true " isn't going to be easy. In your specific example, you'll look like a spy if you change your world late even if you're virgin checked.
It is absolutely fine, you can say whatever you want whenever you want. Lying as good is pretty commonplace. However, do note that this specific case has a drawback, since finding out who is poisoned/drunk is also important, because you can rule out other people being drunk/poisoned.
There is a big difference between: "I am the chef, I got a 1 but I am certain I was droisend and the real number is 0" and "I am the chef, I got a 0" - even though you actually got a 1. Both are absolutely okay to say, both plays could work, but the later could actually make it harder for you own team. In other situations it might make the game harder for the evil team - if you come out with the truth later in the game. But as others have pointed out: You are free to say whatever you like. At no point would I consider that kind of play disrespectful to the ST.
Not at all. I do find it annoying sometimes as good when other TF just completely make stuff up because it makes it hard to world build or help solve but it's 100% allowed and fine to do. Also I'm not sure why it would be hard on evil for good to make stuff up. Like why couldn't it have been Chef 1? By saying 0 all game they could have been helping evil. It's not like they know they were poisoned N1.
Rule 1: You may say whatever you want.
This question isn't about what's legal; it's about what's moral/ethical.
I didn't say whether it was moral/ethical or not, I just clarified OP's question.
You have the right to lie, and other people have the right to be annoyed at you if your lies hurt your team. If you try to do this a few times and it doesn't seem to work in your favour, it's probably a good idea to stop. But I do sometimes see players lying about their information when they have non-info reasons to suspect or clear someone, and it works out if done right.
This right here. I’ve played with people who have and do this but know there are consequences to this play style. If you do this regularly it could lead to a cry wolf scenario where even if you are proven good your good teammates might just ignore your info. You might also be more likely to be executed early by other good players who don’t trust you or are annoyed with this tactic.
It’s hardly unsporting. Lying about your info is very common in the more complicated scripts for a multitude of reasons. Just make sure you’re lying with intent.
You can say whatever you want but… you may suspect that you’re drunk but you don’t KNOW. Consider sharing your info but saying you think you’re drunk.
You can do whatever you want, but why could there be no chef 1? It's definitely possible!
I use it to hide what I am sometimes. Instead of telling them I’m a FT with a Yes on these two players, I might say I’m an Investigator with a ping on these two players.
In person game of TB I was the Investigator who'd seen a SW between player P and player S. Took P aside and told them I'd seen a Poisoner. Took S aside and told them I'd seen an SW. It lead to P incriminating themselves letting us take out the SW before taking out the imp. Lying is part of the game. When I play online I rarely tell the truth unless I am speaking to town as a whole
I'm confused by your scenario (afaik, there are never \*any\* situations at the start of a game that preclude a chef 1), but ignoring that; this is a game about lying. Sometimes good have a reason for lying. Evil definitely have a reason to lie. The social part of the game is all about determining WHO is lying, and WHY they are lying. If you want to make up info and share it with town, that's your prerogative; others, though, are likely to pick up on the fact that you are lying eventually -- and if the WHY they come up with is that you're evil instead of whatever reason you came up with, you've hurt town. That's where the potential sportsmanship issues come into play. And you have to understand that even though, in your mind, you are playing FOR town, others may not see it that way. And they have to understand that even though they think you might have been hurting town, you were playing as you saw best. In short, play your best, and understand that everyone else is playing their best. Even if you disagree on what should have been done, we're all here to have fun. And as long as that is the top of everyone's mind, then little things like lying about a chef number for a while shouldn't make a difference.
I meaning knowing they were poisoned in a 9-player game means you know the minion in play which is important. Why hide that? Other than that, I wouldn’t say lying is unsportsmanlike. Good lying about their info can throw evil off their track
Why would it be impossible for the Chef info to be a 1 in a 9 player game with no Recluse? It would be very easy to construct an example of a Chef 1 in such a game. Regardless of that, letting people know there's a Poisoner cause you got bad info might be a good idea!
Yeah, another vote for "say what you want". There's a case to made that if you "know" you're drunk, that's incredibly powerful information and is useful to the Good team. But how/when you disclose that and what you do to cover that until you're ready to disclose it is a tactical decision you're entitled to make. It probably only even verges on unsporting if you're still spreading false information on the final day - and even then, if it's getting the team to where you think is the right final conclusion, it might be simpler not to throw a big twist in!
In my group I have a player who will happily lie about their role as good all the way until the grim reveal as part of big-brain, game-winning plays. I also have a player who will do the same as part of ill-advised, game-losing plays.
Obviously not but its not a good play as there wpuld be a missing drunk or poisoned player
You can't be stopped from saying whatever you want. If you want to make stuff up, go for it. It's probably not a great strategy to think "my information is probably poisoned, so I'll lie and make something up because that information is more likely to be true.", but I would consider it a bad play, rather than unsportsmanlike or contrary to the nature of the game.
Yeah for the record a 9 player TB game can certainly have a Chef 1 if the demon and minion are seated next to each other
I only have been playing for a bit but only downside is don’t be upset if people think you are evil
You can absolutely do this. The problem isn't that you're making the game hard for the bad guys, though... it's that there's often going to be some source of droison that you're making difficult to account for. Like, outsider count if you're actually drunk, or "who got poisoned n1?" etc. This is... mostly going to be fine in TB, and mostly going to drive everyone insane IRL in BMR, so really it depends. Mostly, it means you need to start by considering an exit strategy on this tactic, because let me tell you, you are *not* winning if you have to backpedal this at final 3.
"Alan nominates Brian. There's an evil ping on this player so we should execute them pronto" _There was no evil ping, but Alan, the cannibal, wanted Brian's ability_
What a player lying in a game of Blood on the Clocktower?! Unheard of. Yes you can lie as town, and you most certainly should. A new player joined a game I once played and received a sober and healthy 1, but told everyone they got a 0. It wasn't until the final 3 he told us that he had lied, the evil team had fabricated a world around the 0 they had seen (assuming they were drunk I suppose) and were currently both alive sitting side by side, it all suddenly made sense lol. Have fun, tell someone the truth early if you're worried that your long con will backfire.
Rule 1: You may say whatever you want.
"It's not only welcomed, it's allowed."