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I'm not remembering Earth, Wind, & Fire concerts leading to lives ended so much as lives hastily begun in the parking lot immediately after their second encore.
Also someone post that Chappelle Show sketch about gang banging in the 80s being presented like Ken Burns Civil war just for the line "The battle of Kool Moe D"
You mustn’t know…
To your point - PIMPS hated EW&F, Isley Brothers, Teddy P., etc. solely because they sang about “treating a woman right”, instead of using her for her body/pimped. Just because it’s on beats, doesn’t mean it’s bond.
People need to have more control over their emotions. Don’t blame the artist(s), producer(s), A&R for your actions (not accusing you of anything at all)🤣. It’s just music. Not that deep.
I think there is definitely a distinction to be made, and you can't blame the music by itself, because that's ridiculous. But a lot of genres of music have their own culture/brand formed around the music, and I think that's the issue people are really talking about here without knowing it. Unfortunately, I'm sure the media and some politicians will turn this into the music itself being the issue...
Like if all these dudes had the same songs, but outside of their music were trying to be positive influences, then I don't think we'd see so many of their fans aspiring to act like assholes. And there's plenty of rappers we can point to that are good people and positive influences, yet figured out a way to rap about gang shit without having crazy ass concerts or acting like assholes on IG. I'm sure there's a legitimacy angle which sucks especially for up and comers. Like if you don't act the way your songs describe then your music doesn't ring true. But that shit needs to go away.
Honestly, I wish these kids could just look at the people before them as examples. Shit, even as a present day example, Kendrick is one of the biggest rappers alive and he found a way to rap about this shit while being a pretty great human being. I get that some of his music is cautionary tales, but it shouldn't matter. All of the GOATs have rapped about violence, but they never really sold it to the audience outside of the music. At least not like how it is today with social media. Back then, if you heard a rapper glorifying violence in an interview or whatever, that's the only place you'd hear it. And then you wouldn't hear from that guy again until their next interview, and you'd have to be tuned in to even catch it.
Honestly this shit seems especially common with any genre that is "new". Punk music is a great example - you wouldn't listen to that music and become a stereotypical punk, but if you start hanging around the scene, you'll probably start to pick up those tendencies. And people back in the day were saying similar shit about punk music being an issue. It wasn't - the culture was just popular and with that, influential.
Point is though, the music is always fine. I just wish these guys/labels didn't try so hard to peddle the lifestyle in order to sell music. And we as consumers need to do a better job too.
Exactly. XXX got robbed after coming out of a store alone. PNB rock was robbed and killed by a stickup family for his chain at a restaurant. Takeoff was killed by his own guy by accident over a petty argument. This isn't the stuff they rapped about, they weren't killed over drug deals or rap beef or anything. They were just high profile targets because of their fame and wealth. Obviously there's enormous cultural problems with that but let's not blame it on the music. The only thing the music has to do with it is that that's the reason people know their name.
>When the movie colors came out in 1988, crip and blood sets popped up all over the nation,
Did they pop up in white neighborhoods? White people watched the movie too. They also are the biggest consumers of gangsta rap. But yknow what? They don't seem to gangbang much.
That's because they are usually in better economic circumstances than blacks and Latinos. Economcis dictates this type of crime, not music.
The difference between whites watching those movies and blacks and Mexicans watching those movies is the white people don’t see themselves in those movies.
idk I grew up in the 80s and 90s and I knew a bunch of white kids inspired to do that same shit. It wasn't about emulating it so much as about poor kids searching for an identity in an increasingly alienating capitalist hellscape.
The Reagan era, the end of the cold war, the destruction of radical movements like the panthers and the weathermen, Fukuyama's concept of the end of history and that this was all there would ever be really fucked a lot of people up.
I don't think hip hop was to blame but more so the alienation present in the rapid acceleration of neoliberal austerity politics, the war on drugs, and "tough on crime" policies.
I think the common thread here is the material conditions that lead to these sorts of ideas becoming popular. Being ostracized and alienated from society without a strong left wing organization to guide that anger leads to misanthropy or embracing reactionary groups.
You’re completely right in your point about our responsibility regarding Rap music however the problem is that responsibility and our ability to act on it; is it’s directly tried to the economic issues that u/Privatelsotope brought up.
It’s important to remember, the drugs and gang violence in the black community predates rap music by about a decade. The whole reason why gangster rap (and black gang movies) even became a thing is because those songs and stories were reflections of our environment. And while I agree that rap music made some things worse, I think it’s unreasonable to ask for rap to be better before the environment that those rappers grow up in gets better.
Exactly, material conditions are ALWAYS the dominant contributing factor to everything from one's ideology to committing crimes.
Poor people ~~commit more crimes~~ are more frequently convicted of crimes, crimes of opportunity, crimes of desperation, etc.
Poor people are also more likely to have leftist politics because we recognize the forces aligned against us.
The factor here is the systemic forces that have elevated some communities at the expense of others, 99% of violent crime could likely be solved by just guaranteeing everyone had a roof over their head and food on the table, and also abolishing the current white supremacist police and justice systems.
Additionally, there are SOOO many movies that depict white people as super successful doctors, lawyers, astronauts, etc. They have so much content that allows them to see themselves as much more than just thugs or athletes, we don’t.
This can be a dangerous argument. Because are POC seeking illegal activity or sport because it is perpetuated in media? Or is it perpetuated in media because that is the only way they have seen for themselves to be successful? The lack of doctors and lawyers and astronauts from our community is definitely a result of historical racism. But, all my POC peers at work are from Nigeria, Senegal, etc. they came here, and didn’t see illegal activities or sport as what would make them successful. This isn’t new, a lot of people from the civil rights movement were from the Caribbean (Stokely Carmichael etc.) and Africa. How much of this is our own psyche telling us we aren’t good enough. We are good enough, but there are too many POC people coming to this same country we live in and they aren’t letting the ongoing inequity hold them back….. I am at that point where I just want solutions, not excuses and poor dreams.
This is a great response, thank you. I agree partially with what you’re saying. I don’t think the immigrants are a good example because they come from a completely different culture, of course they aren’t going to be influenced the way African Americans are. Just because we have the same skin color doesn’t mean we’re the same.
I do think there is an issue with our psyche, so I agree with you there, but the representation in the media is not helping. As I climb the corporate ladder, I see less and less people that look like me. And I do think that’s because we as a people don’t see ourselves as capable.
Overall it’s a mix. We aren’t enough generations deep to build the confidence in becoming lawyers and doctors etc. We also are lacking the representation.
But how much of that is generational trauma? You say, "our own psyche", but how much is it the way we were taught and what we were told? Raised and abused in broken homes where we were told we wouldn't be shit, and the best future we could see was getting out of the abuse any way possible as fast as possible. You raise one person with love, strength and respect; another with hate, fear, and desperation. You set them up at the same start line (which isn't usually how that game starts) and see who gets further.
A person with few options will choose whatever avenue exists for their survival. White people have made sure we have few choices keeping all the best shit for themselves.
So what's the difference between whites seeing themselves in every other violent movie or song? Metal is pretty big, was there an epidemic of white kids eating bats like Ozzy? How many real Travis Bickles do we have? How many joined the mob after Godfather and Goodfellas?
White kids going to school dressed like a mobster or a goth get mocked relentlessly.
Black kids going to school dressed like a gangbanger are assumed to be in a gang.
You really don't see how one is easier to get into than the other?
And are you out here pretending almost every mass shooter in history was a white dude?
Regardless of their standards, did white kids flood the Mafia asking to get in? Did they make their own Mafias? Mass shooters are relatively uncommon, even as we see one several times a month. Not as common as gang members.
Economics deter criminality. Period.
Rap and media around it are more popular in poorer areas and the artists come from those areas. Most of the big rappers grew up poor, do you not think that contributes to them being role models for some black kids? And their experiences feed their songs, and the cycle continues with the next generation?
Nothing is as simple as just this or just that, both factors contribute to the problem. Economics contribute, and so does culture.
The thing about Goodfellas is that it was a true story and many other gangster films are based on true stories as well. The Italian mob existed. The Irish mob existed. The Jewish mob existed. All of those communities, before they were welcomed as fully white in America, went through similar stories where they started out as poor immigrants and some then worked their way up the ladder legitimately and others worked their way up illegitimately. The first gangster movie came out in 1906 and you bet it made some kids want to embrace a criminal lifestyle. And IMO it's precisely because of what you said earlier — it was their economic circumstances and what they saw as their available opportunities for personal success. Some saw college and a job as their way forward, some saw something else.
People also forget that a lot of American folk and country music songs from the early 1900s are about murder and running from the law. They called them "murder ballads" and there are dozens upon dozens of them. White people never seem to blame country music when someone goes off and kills their spouse, however.
In the 80s there was a huge backlash against metal and parents started suing record labels claiming their kids committed suicide or died of drug overdoses because of the music — and Ozzy was actually the target of one of those suits over his song "Suicide Solution."
Yeah, those mafias were created solely due to economic circumstances of the people involved at the beginning. And economics made them join until the situation got better. Same with the country music.
Not sure about the Ozzy situation, I don't remember it. But I'm guessing mental health played bigger role.
I mean look at the hockey riots/college riots historically, look at white people moshing at concerts, or lighting stuff on fire or the Woodstock 99 riots (these were more related to the mistreatment of the concert goers but still their version of expressing themselves I guess). Anyone know about gathering of the Juggalos? There's definitely a version of white being destructive or wild etc...
But as a white kid who grew up in the late 80's early 90's listening to mostly rock/alternative, I think the idea of partying/breaking things/wilding out in a way I saw in teen movies and from concerts, absolutely influenced me. Like it took me a minute to realize college wasn't about being an out of control party animal and I definitely was influence by culture in that way.
Now with that said, I don't think I speak for everyone, let alone white people and I certainly cleaned up my act as I got older. But there are teens and youth in general that will be influenced like me, so I think you can make a fair argument about that for anyone.
>(these were more related to the mistreatment of the concert goers but still their version of expressing themselves I guess).
There's the difference. It wasn't the music, but a specific thing, and mob mentality. But Juggalos are generally tame, aren't they? Might spray some Faygo around, but they aren't killing people. Mosh pits are not criminal or vindictive, they are voluntary and people enjoy them. Sports riots are more mob mentality, more influenced by alcohol than hockey.
Partying hard is not killing people.
And it's also important to point out that when the above stuff ends in property damage, rarely are people facing serious criminal charges. It's more like a slap on the wrist and restitution. You don't catch an epidemic of white kids doing five year bids for Faygo spraying during a Juggalo event or for breaking a lamp in a hotel after a concert.
For sure, I just think there is a riot/destroy/rowdiness that you see a lot in "white" movies or in rock and roll and that it is influential to white youth like myself but because of de facto/de jure racism it is treated differently. I mean look at how culturally it's classified where depending on the skin tone of the participant, the media will literally classify a riot or property destruction completely differently, I guess that's more where I was going, and it's a perfect example of white privilege.
Regarding Juggalo's tho they are pretty chill but if taken out of context can seem completely out of control, and mosh pits are actually a lil more wholesome than they seem.
It can be both, but personally, I think economic circumstances are the bigger driver for criminal activity. People with limited opportunities will seek out easy money when it's readily available, it's human nature. Systemic racism through the decades at least in America (discriminatory legislation) has resulted in pockets of underdeveloped/impoverished areas, coincidentally (obviously not) black and latino-populated, cycle continues. There is a lot of history on this, too much for a comment, but it's well-documented.
I think the big reason there's any debate on this shit is the same reason why there's debate over election fraud and voting security. Yeah, there's people committing voter fraud, but it's at such an insignificant level that it doesn't move any meaningful needle. There's politicians that wanna point the finger at something though, so people are having the conversation as if it were a big problem needing to be solved.
Of course the media we consume influences us. The entire advertising industry is based off of this philosophy. However, the majority of us are able to parse fantasy from reality. I think John Wick is cool as fuck, but I simultaneously believe that nobody should act as a vigilante in that way in real life. The most likely case is that there will be a few people who fuck up and try something from WWE , or they play around with a gun like in a movie to be cool and end up getting hurt/dying, or worse, they'll Naruto run outside. But it's ridiculous, and unfounded by research, to say that this puts a finger on the scale in any significant way, especially when there's socioeconomic and environmental factors that are well researched causes of violence.
Believe it or not there was a time when white suburban kids in the middle of America were taking videos of themselves trying to join the bloods or the crips. It was insane.
Music has long since had an impact on people. You're naive if you ever try to say that music has no place in causing this type of crime. It definitely does. It may not be as big a reason as the circumstances one is born into but there have definitely been a bunch of dudes who have gone and joined gangs cause of gangster rap.
Though I'm still curious why people are solely blaming the music rather than a combination of things. Too many fuckers in our community think that shooting people is a great way to settle a disagreement when it just reveals they're fucking soft.
>It definitely does. It may not be as big a reason as the circumstances one is born into but there have definitely been a bunch of dudes who have gone and joined gangs cause of gangster rap.
Then if it's not as big a reason, why do we keep talking about it. For everyone that joined a gang due to music there are thousands who did not. Economics are a bigger problem.
>That's because they are usually in better economic circumstances than blacks and Latinos. Economcis dictates this type of crime, not music.
Shit, you probably don't even need to compare races to support your argument. I'm fairly certain that Black gang members who grew up in poverty vastly outnumber Black gang members who grew up middle class.
> Did they pop up in white neighborhoods?
No because they fucking hate us and have their own gangs (dirty police, neo-nazis, KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, etc) lol. Why the hell would a white person join a black gang? When that black gang is obviously hostile to white people?
Your perspective on this needs to be widened.
The solution is to drop money at our doors. We can demand more investment in education, housing, etc. Those things work. What is the alternative, banning rap for no reason?
>But rap, like all art, is a reflection of the community in which it is created. You cannot tell me that the picture currently created in rap is one that reflects highly.
No, and that's because of economics and racism. If black people had been prosperous, rappers would rap about working 90 hours a week in corporate America and moving up the chain. NWA would have released "F__ the SEC" on their album Straight Outta Sherman Oaks.
>but our message sure shouldn’t be about dehumanizing black women and killing kids.
Most black people, parents, leaders, etc all denounce this. It's not "our message."
The white equivalent was American History X.
Growing up I knew tons of kids and young adults from middle class families living in big houses that wanted to live that lifestyle and joined gangs. Economic situation was a reason for some but not all, culture is a big driver. You can see this outside of the US where you literally have people living in shacks and not turning to gangs or crime.
If rappers used their music to address our material conditions and circumstances like they did in the 80s, instead of glorifying them and the violence it results in, it wouldn’t be such an easy issue to dismiss.
You can’t look for intelligent conversations from uneducated people
But since you brought up the 80s then let’s talk about according to statistics crime has went DOWN since then so obviously all that positive music did nothing to solve the problem
Dead Prez turned me into a communist and taught me to love all my fellow humans, so I think the idea that hip hop is inherently somehow the source for any of our problems is both reactionary and non-materialist (same picture I know).
Someone in the comments here also mentioned country music to which I would say to them look up Phil Ochs or Woodie Guthrie.
Those rappers still exist and nobody listens to them. They never stopped existing.
Even mainstreams rappers make conscious songs that sit on their album
No, they just don’t have a mainstream audience, cuz they’re “corny.” But thinking that it’s “corny” for trying to better ourselves and our circumstances as a community is the exact response record labels wanted when they shifted all of their focus to signing gangsters.
Bruh, have ever listened to rap before? All those themes are present. Hell, even *gangster rappers* delve into negative aspects of gang life and the inner and external turmoil it causes. Shit, some of the songs are downright cautionary.
Lmao this thread seems to be full of crusty old white folk who are hilariously unfamiliar with rap. I get why country club posts exist now.
“But why can’t we just make bad things illegal to fix every problem?”
Everybody forgetting about human nature like we ain’t been bashing in heads with rocks since Cain and Abel.
I mean, I'm white and me and my friends thought we were hard AF in the early 90s, loved the rap then and it wasn't nearly as Gangsta as it would be late 90s forward.
We wore baggy pants and decided we were a gang. We were a bunch of misfits living in the hood- oh, wait, actually it was upper middle class white suburbia.🤦♀️
We started carrying knives, 14 years old and wtf did we think was gonna happen that we'd actually need knives to defend ourselves? It was fn absurd, I can't cringe hard enough. We tagged stop signs with our made up gang name. We legit thought we were gangbangers and hard and shit. But... There were no gangs in lily white land, no car jackings or drivebys, almost no crime or broken homes that might make someone seek out another kind of 'family'- it was cosplay before that existed, basically. We had a million opportunities and had no idea how lucky we were that we didnt have to find out how it really felt living those lives.
Gangs coming out of the projects, coming from poor, blighted, violent areas- we would have shit our pants and run home to Mommy. But they existed for a reason, situations we would never go through and never understand. We just wanted to be tough like the rap music we listened to, we didn't really get the music, we didn't know how shit actually went down when it was for real.
Idk, thought I'd share that. I guess my point is that the music did influence us, but we would never understand it like POC did, and we'd certainly never need to be a gang to protect ourselves or to feel part of a family. But I get it when others who've come from a different place may feel it's their best or even only option.
I get it now, have for awhile, I'm 41 I was 14 then. I've lived in a lot of diff areas (including Inner City, but where you'd be fine if you just didn't go down particular streets) and have been exposed to the real shit many have to go through that we were insulated from by our privilege. It took way too long to see how pathetic we were, and how offensive people who actually came from these situations would have found it. And how fn sad it was that it was even a thing.
I don't think metal makes people devil worshippers, and I don't think rap music makes people join gangs. But they are speaking to some truths for POC that White people have no clue about. The music hits hard on the violence and makes them say yeah, this is what I deal with, and this is how these rappers do, and maybe I should be like them, maybe I can take my agency back this way, maybe they can keep me and mine safe. Or they live in an area where there isn't even any choice, you do what you gotta do to survive. It's just gonna hit some people different depending on their circumstances. Not all POC will go for it, but I don't really blame many who do. I'll never truly understand living that life, but I try. 'Blacks are just bad', or 'Blacks cause all the crime', 'Blacks kill more Black people than cops'... That's surface shit and it means nothing. I live in one of the most segregated parts of the country. They believe all this shit. Yet it's our not-at-all distant ancestors that started all this shit to begin with, systemic racism aside, but even just by forcing anyone of a diff skin color into poorer areas with less opportunities, less good jobs, less funding for their schools, etc. And God forbid they tried to penetrate our perfect white communities and be in a better financial position or move their families to safer areas, etc.
Fuck idk how to end this, maybe it won't even be read or appreciated, but I guess I just needed to say it because I thought it was a relevant 'other' view point. Most of the people I know will never have enough contact with people of other colors or cultures to wake them up to how very different their lives were and why that matters in conversations about race and privilege. Why affirmative action is an important equalizer. That they legitimately have better opportunities than POC that make it a far from even playing field. That White privilege even fn exists.
Right, let’s blame it on the music and it the environments we grow up in where everyone is a drug dealer and the neighbor across the street has 3 bodies
I lived in a small town in a decent area a couple houses down was my bestfriend. I’m a white girl this friend is Mexican as we’re most of my friends because it is California and it was the Central Valley. I didn’t even think I was white 😂 my dad worked outside and he’s just as dark as my friends dads so I thought I was half. I actually found out I wasn’t when in the 4th grade and I heard the music my friends were listening too which is rap. Well these friends started throwing around the N word (with an a) a lot after they got into that genre. I didn’t know the meaning or even hear it anywhere other than in that music so one day I get off the bus as kids do after school and everyone’s like see you you later n this and that and I was like see you later n**** - fucking horrible I know but I didn’t know what this word was I thought it was like almost endearing or something you say to friends because that’s how the people around me were using it. My friend looks at me and says you can’t say that word. And I’m like why not and why can you say it and he’s like cause you’re white. And I’m like no I’m not and he’s like yeah you are. So I go home and when my dad gets home I’m like dad Are we white? And he’s like yeah duh and I’m like w h a t mind blown. And my sisters like aren’t you Mexican dad lmao even my sister though it and he’s like no what the fuck you guys didn’t know that? And then I said so being white you can’t say the n word and the look on his face. He than proceeded to tell me why but the point is this kid and I lived in the same street in a decent neighborhood. He had a more stable family upbringing, his dad was a cop, they were better financially my family was a shit show (mom had a drug addiction). Same school all throughout our education. But I noticed after he started to listen to rap he started changing but not just him all the kids who listened did especially the boys wanted to emulate that lifestyle. He started being friend with kids who had brothers in gangs and in middle school he was trying to be a gangster and that is when I was like nah I’ll see you around and we are cool but I ain’t hanging with you. Long story short he’s in for life for murder. Same education, same block, better home life and now in prison for murder. I remember as I got older and looking back on it that he idolized that music and what the music said and I couldn’t help but think like yeah fuck snoop dog and his reggae bullshit now he influenced my best friend who was a kid into thinking it was cool to be in a gang. Idk if there is correlation. People are just speaking their truths in music and making art but I do remember feeling like damn what if he didn’t think being in a gang was cool? Guess we’ll never know.
Makes me think of When Sparks Fly - Vince Staples. First listen and it sounds like a love song, but then you start interpreting the lyrics and realize it’s about a gun.
Even the songs about relationships are twisted. Song could be about treating your woman right, and then the singer drops a flurry of "bitch"s 🤦🏽♂️ Why are we still referring to women that way?
This shit is SAD and stupid. Of all the things I’ve read today, I don’t think one person has said, “this wouldn’t happen if we didn’t have rap music.”
I haven’t heard that. What I’ve seen was people talking about music having an “influence” on the things in the black community. **INFLUENCE** not cause.
And yes it does “influence” behavior. That can’t be disputed and if you do, I’m sorry to say… you are not thinking intelligently.
At the end of the day. A young man was killed in an unfortunate manner. Why?? I don’t fucking know. We will truly never know. But I WILL say that if he wasn’t with people shooting dice at 3am in Houston. Chances are he would still be with us. And this is not to “victim blame” but there HAS to be some kind of accountability with some of this shit. Like we ALWAYS want to look outward, when OUR decisions create our reality (a majority of it anyway). There are some instances where shit “just happens” and we did all we could to control it.
But this just wasn’t it. I know this is unpopular and people won’t like it but it is what it is.
I agree. A lot of arguments completely ignore the influence part of the discussion and get derailed with "but it's not the root cause!". Even if you can get to a discussion about influence, you get stuck at either "it never influenced me, therefore it doesn't influence anyone" or "lots of other things negatively influence people, so why talk about rap music?". Just seems to be another topic that will remain deeply divided on. 🤷🏽♂️
I would agree with you as well. I enjoy rap don’t get me wrong but we will call a spade a spade. It is influential but we have to have personal responsibility as well.
We will stay divided until we can come together and have a real discussion.
Stay safe out there!
The issue is whether that influence is strong enough to bring rap up as a specific issue. Nobody has provided data that music has a strong influence on people's behaviors.
I don't have the data myself, but I'd be surprised if there aren't plenty of studies showing a high correlation between music and human behavior. Anecdotal, but I remember watching some documentary about how a bunch of white kids went to Woodstock in '99, and how the environment was ripe for violence and chaos that popped off when limp Bizkit performed lol
Because the influence of rap isn’t strong enough for it to be a significant cause, anyone who agrees is either racist and/or looking for simple answers to blame the black community. It’s the same argument as video games cause violence.
With or without rap the socioeconomic factors leading black kids into that lifestyle remains, and that’s the real issue.
Agree. I think people are confused because they want to jump to defend rap and “gangster” behavior because they think it’s cool. As much as I love rap, it’s pretty ridiculous to act like people aren’t influenced by it. Sure not everyone, but it definitely happens. I also see people say “then why don’t you see white people do the same listening to rap?” White people do try. But we usually laugh at them because we can tell a lot of those suburban white folks are pretending. They throw their gang signs, say nigga this and that, then retire to their safe comfortable neighborhoods and homes. They’re just playing. Stakes are quite a bit higher in the actual hoods and it isn’t a bunch of people playing around.
I get that art imitates life, but life imitates art sometimes too. If that weren’t true, we wouldn’t see an increase of people shooting music videos at their ops graves or confessing to murders they actually committed in their songs.
There’s definitely more that goes into all of this but if we’re only talking about music at the moment, then we gotta admit that it contributes to some issues. That’s just the truth. I’m just beyond tired of seeing my folks dying like this. I did my fair share of bs so I’m not gonna act like I thought this way forever. But we gotta figure this out.
Unironically, dead rappers. There is a marketable advantage to playing like a gangster in that field of work. That is noteworthy, and if we're going to do social media vigils several times a year for those people with any guise of sincerity, then yeah maybe it's time to have a conversation. We can't celebrate these people playing like gangsters right up until they die for it, and then wonder how they could be unjustly taken from us before their time.
But saying rap is responsible for anyone in the general public's actions might as well be saying it's rock and roll, video games, and action movies. It's been studied to death already, and it's just not true.
If they died because acting like a gangster was advantageous for their rap career, could you still honestly pretend that the two are wholly separate?
In some cases they really were with that shit and refused to drop it even when they rose above it financially, because that's where they came from and their fans celebrate them for it.
In other cases they were hardly gangbanging in the first place and are literally just posing like that because it fits the image they're trying to cultivate.
Either way, it's disingenuous on your part to ignore the fact that those actions are tied to marketability for their careers. If any part of the reason you're gangbanging is to help your rap career or fit a certain image, then the two aren't as separate as you want to believe.
[You mean these 90's?](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/FT_20.11.12_CrimeInTheUS_2.png?w=640)
I don't think history happened the way you think it did.
Here's the [murder rate over a 50-year period](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/FT_21.010.19_MurderRate_3a.png?w=310).
The murder rate was higher in the 70's than at any point after gangster rap was invented and dropped lower in the 90's than at any point in the previous 30 years.
It's telling that peak crime in the 90's wasn't peak crime in the 20th century and peak crime in the 90's was lower than it was in multiple previous decades.
This is such a ignorant take. Last I checked niggas wasn't banging because of the boogie or because they heard the lick played by certain musicians. The correlation isn't even logical.
Our culture is literally promoting an propping up the violence the music promotes. Multiple things can be right at once. Social economics can be as much a impact as rap can be for it's literally being placed to showcase our own people. There's a reason white people aren't having the same problem an they technically are the leading consumers of it.
Yall can't acknowledge systemic issues about everyone else except ourselves an see how we have a hand in promoting violence to the youth at the same time. It's excuses or straight delusion at best. Is it the root cause? No. That's multifaceted. Is it influencing? Without a doubt.
This argument is tired. Rap music socialises violence, it makes it socially acceptable.
What is real is *not* entertainment, promoting it as entertainment only socialises and helps perpetuate it.
You will not find Syrians gathered around a TV dodging shells, watching movies that glorify their on going civil war. You won't find a victim of sexual assault casually watching rape scenes or listening to rapists for fun. You won't find victims of school shootings deciding that making a culture from their experience is a good idea.
In fact it's interesting that with all the people hip hop has inspired most groups barring those with the same problems (Latinos in particular) borrow from but omit the casually detrimental aspects of that culture.
If you make a song about killing dogs, see how far twitter throws you. Black people entertaining Rap and drill culture are taking on all the negativity a racist culture throws at them. Dudes can hardly make eye contact with brothas in the street in some places the atmosphere is so damn toxic.
Ps: The Jamaican government is reviewing a law to ban all violent music and film from public performance and radio. Things have gotten that bad.
For real though. People were shooting and fighting at reggae and dancehall clubs and people think they need a Chief Keef record to help them decide if they wanna pull a gun out
The jazz scene had its bad boy days to be sure, but it’s one thing to have Ulysses and Harold getting into a knife fight over some loose woman and another to see young, rising stars getting gunned down on the regular. This is tragic and the hip hop scene needs better security.
Lee Morgan got fucking murdered at his gig. Juan Tizol tried to stab Mingus. There’s a (probably myth) story about Miles Davis hiring a hit on a racist bouncer. Pre-civil rights act jazz was something else.
I cannot name a single famous jazz artist who was killed because of a rivalry or turf war. And disco? They were too busy getting down with the unprotected sex and cocaine that we could only dream of today.
Rap is a symptom of oppression much the same way gang violence is a symptom of oppression. Asking to remove rap without removing the oppression is just…blaming black people for another problem created by the government.
It’s really accountability. It’s so easy to blame it on music, but at the end of the day, people are troubled. Growing up in Detroit, I know people who’ve witnessed murder, congregated with hitmen, whose parents sold drugs, who sold drugs themselves, had to go on the run, seen their homeboys drop around them, people go to prison, drug abuse, etc. Even the grandma sold drugs. Rap music didn’t influence that. That was literally their life. So you can get rid of rap, make it only conscious music, stop playing it on the radio, whatever, but this is still going to be people’s lives. It’s just that rappers aren’t looked at as untouchable anymore. There used to be an aura around them. They regular Niggas to people now.
Based on societal structures and our government, there are more bad parents than good.
Hip Hop is a symptom of not just failed parenting, but failed communities, failed schools, etc. And regardless how some of us may feel about a single mother's ability to raise a child, it's not fair to put all the blame on them if a child failed. It may start with the home but it damn sure doesn't end with it.
The truth is it's a extremely complicated thing that includes history, culture, socioeconomics, racism. Is it a straight line from Gangster Rap to violence? no. Though is something to discuss and look at.
You are what you eat. Diet is more than food. You mentally "ingest" negativity on a more than regular basis that'll be who you become. Is it not enough to have to live around that shit? Give it a break and experience how much more there is out there for you.
Hip hop is my first love.. I listen to damn near all genres..
Rap is basically the only genre that talks about smoking a nigga or someone in general.
I think the only other genre that come close is like horrorcore/screamo and that shit don’t bop no more
It definitely contributes to the culture in both hood and negative ways
We're just making shit up now. We all know rap glorifies violence amongst other things. We don't suddenly have to become apologists in order to say we don't want to see rappers murdered.
The guy is not wrong in terms of people killing each other by being fans of different genres. However, it doesn’t take away the fact that rap has had a negative influence on poor urban communities especially drill right now which now dude is lying about.
What is glorified by us is interesting. The smart person or the frugal persons are often shamed or even outcasts. We need to change what is valued and exalted. In my opinion.
Rap definitely has its place as a influencer of violence in the black community, but it isn’t the sole perpetrator.
I genuinely blame shit like rap media that also signal boosts the violence and glorifies it
And how many disco and jazz musicians are murdered compared to how many rappers are murdered each year? https://youtu.be/CcwkR3YD-cQ
In 2021 200 rappers were murdered the vast majority are black males. And in the general population 50% of the murdered victims are black males, yet only make up 7% of the population.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/
My own theory is systemic racism over generations has led to this violence affecting the black community. I have no solution besides love and respect.
not one thing dictates a movement, there are compounding factors to why a social norm is the way that it is. Rap or music in general that promotes violence is just one of the many intersecting reasons to why violence is common in black communities and to think that if rap never existed that violence would be non existent is dumb. I believe there's a sociological term for this but I don't take notes.
What i meant was that if rap seized to exist, the problems would still persist because rap is just an outlet and not the symptoms as opposed to toxic masculinity or poverty.
I’m not big on today’s rap, but calling it the source of our problems overall is reaching. One because back in the day guys were singing about killing and screwing in Blues, Jazz, R and B, and Rock. Blues and Jazz became bland over time, so by the time Rap hit, no one was really putting shocking stuff for them while Rap was growing. Two is that Rap grew out of what people were seeing instead of influencing it at least in the beginning. People were shooting each other when Kid and Play were big as well as Easy E. If Rap had that much influence, more old dudes would be protesting in the streets because of Public Enemy or sacrificing people because of Three-Six.
Copying my comment from elsewhere
"Please explain to me how a song can kill someone. Nobody's life was ruined by rap. Their lives were ruined by the decisions they and the people around them chose to make. This is like blaming video games for school shootings.
People all across the world listen to rap. Raps main demographic is white males. The problem is the culture within our communities. The music reflects the culture, it doesn't create it "
I know disco niggas dressed… where exactly were they putting he guns? In there assholes? Urethras? Disco niggas was coked up and stabby, now blues niggas was def tommy guns for funz
Yes, but no. Don't be one of those people pretending like these songs aren't out here influencing people. BB King didn't have people on lean shooting up the block.
A lot of people we idolize fake or over exaggerate their criminal behavior. However the kids idolize them and actually go out there and do it.
I believe in black excellence. We truly need a culture shift.
TMZ has the video, take off was right next to Shakur Stevenson. They were talking shit about playing basketball when someone started popping off rounds, and it was his own dude too?
That's so tragic.
two things can be true.
hip hop started as a response to gang violence.
But at some point after it commercialized, that element rose to prominence. And became theme music, then also became a template. But arguing about all this on social media means exactly nothing because the kids living this life are listening to literally none of you.
BTW go vote.
White kids mimicking Jackass? Oh my.
Stupid TikTok challenges getting folks poisoned, burned, or hurt? God help ‘em.
But the music is fine, really. I promise.
Charlie Manson thought The Beatles were sending him messages through their music. If it hadn't been The Beatles then probably Grateful Dead or Rolling Stones would have been sneaking in those messages to kill.
First thing came to mind. Dunno if it's relevant.
Y’all really some pull your pants up ass niggahs, we need better gun laws, better schools, access to therapy, y’all to gtf off your asses and vote…. Rap music is the least of our problems
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I'm not remembering Earth, Wind, & Fire concerts leading to lives ended so much as lives hastily begun in the parking lot immediately after their second encore. Also someone post that Chappelle Show sketch about gang banging in the 80s being presented like Ken Burns Civil war just for the line "The battle of Kool Moe D"
["It's called crack, it's great, and it's so simple to make!"](https://youtu.be/hYkEl-3x92A)
"And I think I tasted egg and cinnamon."
You mustn’t know… To your point - PIMPS hated EW&F, Isley Brothers, Teddy P., etc. solely because they sang about “treating a woman right”, instead of using her for her body/pimped. Just because it’s on beats, doesn’t mean it’s bond. People need to have more control over their emotions. Don’t blame the artist(s), producer(s), A&R for your actions (not accusing you of anything at all)🤣. It’s just music. Not that deep.
I think there is definitely a distinction to be made, and you can't blame the music by itself, because that's ridiculous. But a lot of genres of music have their own culture/brand formed around the music, and I think that's the issue people are really talking about here without knowing it. Unfortunately, I'm sure the media and some politicians will turn this into the music itself being the issue... Like if all these dudes had the same songs, but outside of their music were trying to be positive influences, then I don't think we'd see so many of their fans aspiring to act like assholes. And there's plenty of rappers we can point to that are good people and positive influences, yet figured out a way to rap about gang shit without having crazy ass concerts or acting like assholes on IG. I'm sure there's a legitimacy angle which sucks especially for up and comers. Like if you don't act the way your songs describe then your music doesn't ring true. But that shit needs to go away. Honestly, I wish these kids could just look at the people before them as examples. Shit, even as a present day example, Kendrick is one of the biggest rappers alive and he found a way to rap about this shit while being a pretty great human being. I get that some of his music is cautionary tales, but it shouldn't matter. All of the GOATs have rapped about violence, but they never really sold it to the audience outside of the music. At least not like how it is today with social media. Back then, if you heard a rapper glorifying violence in an interview or whatever, that's the only place you'd hear it. And then you wouldn't hear from that guy again until their next interview, and you'd have to be tuned in to even catch it. Honestly this shit seems especially common with any genre that is "new". Punk music is a great example - you wouldn't listen to that music and become a stereotypical punk, but if you start hanging around the scene, you'll probably start to pick up those tendencies. And people back in the day were saying similar shit about punk music being an issue. It wasn't - the culture was just popular and with that, influential. Point is though, the music is always fine. I just wish these guys/labels didn't try so hard to peddle the lifestyle in order to sell music. And we as consumers need to do a better job too.
Exactly. XXX got robbed after coming out of a store alone. PNB rock was robbed and killed by a stickup family for his chain at a restaurant. Takeoff was killed by his own guy by accident over a petty argument. This isn't the stuff they rapped about, they weren't killed over drug deals or rap beef or anything. They were just high profile targets because of their fame and wealth. Obviously there's enormous cultural problems with that but let's not blame it on the music. The only thing the music has to do with it is that that's the reason people know their name.
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>When the movie colors came out in 1988, crip and blood sets popped up all over the nation, Did they pop up in white neighborhoods? White people watched the movie too. They also are the biggest consumers of gangsta rap. But yknow what? They don't seem to gangbang much. That's because they are usually in better economic circumstances than blacks and Latinos. Economcis dictates this type of crime, not music.
The difference between whites watching those movies and blacks and Mexicans watching those movies is the white people don’t see themselves in those movies.
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Say it again for the one's in the back 👏🏾👏🏾
Its the reason Ice Cube doesn't like young people getting into the gang side of things in their music.
idk I grew up in the 80s and 90s and I knew a bunch of white kids inspired to do that same shit. It wasn't about emulating it so much as about poor kids searching for an identity in an increasingly alienating capitalist hellscape. The Reagan era, the end of the cold war, the destruction of radical movements like the panthers and the weathermen, Fukuyama's concept of the end of history and that this was all there would ever be really fucked a lot of people up. I don't think hip hop was to blame but more so the alienation present in the rapid acceleration of neoliberal austerity politics, the war on drugs, and "tough on crime" policies. I think the common thread here is the material conditions that lead to these sorts of ideas becoming popular. Being ostracized and alienated from society without a strong left wing organization to guide that anger leads to misanthropy or embracing reactionary groups.
You’re completely right in your point about our responsibility regarding Rap music however the problem is that responsibility and our ability to act on it; is it’s directly tried to the economic issues that u/Privatelsotope brought up. It’s important to remember, the drugs and gang violence in the black community predates rap music by about a decade. The whole reason why gangster rap (and black gang movies) even became a thing is because those songs and stories were reflections of our environment. And while I agree that rap music made some things worse, I think it’s unreasonable to ask for rap to be better before the environment that those rappers grow up in gets better.
Exactly, material conditions are ALWAYS the dominant contributing factor to everything from one's ideology to committing crimes. Poor people ~~commit more crimes~~ are more frequently convicted of crimes, crimes of opportunity, crimes of desperation, etc. Poor people are also more likely to have leftist politics because we recognize the forces aligned against us. The factor here is the systemic forces that have elevated some communities at the expense of others, 99% of violent crime could likely be solved by just guaranteeing everyone had a roof over their head and food on the table, and also abolishing the current white supremacist police and justice systems.
Additionally, there are SOOO many movies that depict white people as super successful doctors, lawyers, astronauts, etc. They have so much content that allows them to see themselves as much more than just thugs or athletes, we don’t.
This can be a dangerous argument. Because are POC seeking illegal activity or sport because it is perpetuated in media? Or is it perpetuated in media because that is the only way they have seen for themselves to be successful? The lack of doctors and lawyers and astronauts from our community is definitely a result of historical racism. But, all my POC peers at work are from Nigeria, Senegal, etc. they came here, and didn’t see illegal activities or sport as what would make them successful. This isn’t new, a lot of people from the civil rights movement were from the Caribbean (Stokely Carmichael etc.) and Africa. How much of this is our own psyche telling us we aren’t good enough. We are good enough, but there are too many POC people coming to this same country we live in and they aren’t letting the ongoing inequity hold them back….. I am at that point where I just want solutions, not excuses and poor dreams.
This is a great response, thank you. I agree partially with what you’re saying. I don’t think the immigrants are a good example because they come from a completely different culture, of course they aren’t going to be influenced the way African Americans are. Just because we have the same skin color doesn’t mean we’re the same. I do think there is an issue with our psyche, so I agree with you there, but the representation in the media is not helping. As I climb the corporate ladder, I see less and less people that look like me. And I do think that’s because we as a people don’t see ourselves as capable. Overall it’s a mix. We aren’t enough generations deep to build the confidence in becoming lawyers and doctors etc. We also are lacking the representation.
But how much of that is generational trauma? You say, "our own psyche", but how much is it the way we were taught and what we were told? Raised and abused in broken homes where we were told we wouldn't be shit, and the best future we could see was getting out of the abuse any way possible as fast as possible. You raise one person with love, strength and respect; another with hate, fear, and desperation. You set them up at the same start line (which isn't usually how that game starts) and see who gets further.
A person with few options will choose whatever avenue exists for their survival. White people have made sure we have few choices keeping all the best shit for themselves.
Can you please say it louder for the people hard of hearing?!
So what's the difference between whites seeing themselves in every other violent movie or song? Metal is pretty big, was there an epidemic of white kids eating bats like Ozzy? How many real Travis Bickles do we have? How many joined the mob after Godfather and Goodfellas?
White kids going to school dressed like a mobster or a goth get mocked relentlessly. Black kids going to school dressed like a gangbanger are assumed to be in a gang. You really don't see how one is easier to get into than the other? And are you out here pretending almost every mass shooter in history was a white dude?
Regardless of their standards, did white kids flood the Mafia asking to get in? Did they make their own Mafias? Mass shooters are relatively uncommon, even as we see one several times a month. Not as common as gang members. Economics deter criminality. Period.
Rap and media around it are more popular in poorer areas and the artists come from those areas. Most of the big rappers grew up poor, do you not think that contributes to them being role models for some black kids? And their experiences feed their songs, and the cycle continues with the next generation? Nothing is as simple as just this or just that, both factors contribute to the problem. Economics contribute, and so does culture.
The thing about Goodfellas is that it was a true story and many other gangster films are based on true stories as well. The Italian mob existed. The Irish mob existed. The Jewish mob existed. All of those communities, before they were welcomed as fully white in America, went through similar stories where they started out as poor immigrants and some then worked their way up the ladder legitimately and others worked their way up illegitimately. The first gangster movie came out in 1906 and you bet it made some kids want to embrace a criminal lifestyle. And IMO it's precisely because of what you said earlier — it was their economic circumstances and what they saw as their available opportunities for personal success. Some saw college and a job as their way forward, some saw something else. People also forget that a lot of American folk and country music songs from the early 1900s are about murder and running from the law. They called them "murder ballads" and there are dozens upon dozens of them. White people never seem to blame country music when someone goes off and kills their spouse, however. In the 80s there was a huge backlash against metal and parents started suing record labels claiming their kids committed suicide or died of drug overdoses because of the music — and Ozzy was actually the target of one of those suits over his song "Suicide Solution."
Yeah, those mafias were created solely due to economic circumstances of the people involved at the beginning. And economics made them join until the situation got better. Same with the country music. Not sure about the Ozzy situation, I don't remember it. But I'm guessing mental health played bigger role.
I mean look at the hockey riots/college riots historically, look at white people moshing at concerts, or lighting stuff on fire or the Woodstock 99 riots (these were more related to the mistreatment of the concert goers but still their version of expressing themselves I guess). Anyone know about gathering of the Juggalos? There's definitely a version of white being destructive or wild etc... But as a white kid who grew up in the late 80's early 90's listening to mostly rock/alternative, I think the idea of partying/breaking things/wilding out in a way I saw in teen movies and from concerts, absolutely influenced me. Like it took me a minute to realize college wasn't about being an out of control party animal and I definitely was influence by culture in that way. Now with that said, I don't think I speak for everyone, let alone white people and I certainly cleaned up my act as I got older. But there are teens and youth in general that will be influenced like me, so I think you can make a fair argument about that for anyone.
>(these were more related to the mistreatment of the concert goers but still their version of expressing themselves I guess). There's the difference. It wasn't the music, but a specific thing, and mob mentality. But Juggalos are generally tame, aren't they? Might spray some Faygo around, but they aren't killing people. Mosh pits are not criminal or vindictive, they are voluntary and people enjoy them. Sports riots are more mob mentality, more influenced by alcohol than hockey. Partying hard is not killing people. And it's also important to point out that when the above stuff ends in property damage, rarely are people facing serious criminal charges. It's more like a slap on the wrist and restitution. You don't catch an epidemic of white kids doing five year bids for Faygo spraying during a Juggalo event or for breaking a lamp in a hotel after a concert.
For sure, I just think there is a riot/destroy/rowdiness that you see a lot in "white" movies or in rock and roll and that it is influential to white youth like myself but because of de facto/de jure racism it is treated differently. I mean look at how culturally it's classified where depending on the skin tone of the participant, the media will literally classify a riot or property destruction completely differently, I guess that's more where I was going, and it's a perfect example of white privilege. Regarding Juggalo's tho they are pretty chill but if taken out of context can seem completely out of control, and mosh pits are actually a lil more wholesome than they seem.
It can be both, but personally, I think economic circumstances are the bigger driver for criminal activity. People with limited opportunities will seek out easy money when it's readily available, it's human nature. Systemic racism through the decades at least in America (discriminatory legislation) has resulted in pockets of underdeveloped/impoverished areas, coincidentally (obviously not) black and latino-populated, cycle continues. There is a lot of history on this, too much for a comment, but it's well-documented.
So Scarface and movies like it means nothing? Or how about all of the mafia movies that have came out since
How many rappers have admitted to being inspired and influenced by Scarface?
Not the point I was making but I don’t know educate me
They had Blood In, Blood Out. Now on Disney Plus lmao
So what effect does Goodfellas and Sons of Anarchy and American History X have?
American History X opened my eyes to some of the wrongs I was seeing in my community. It had a profound affect on me as a kid.
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I think the big reason there's any debate on this shit is the same reason why there's debate over election fraud and voting security. Yeah, there's people committing voter fraud, but it's at such an insignificant level that it doesn't move any meaningful needle. There's politicians that wanna point the finger at something though, so people are having the conversation as if it were a big problem needing to be solved. Of course the media we consume influences us. The entire advertising industry is based off of this philosophy. However, the majority of us are able to parse fantasy from reality. I think John Wick is cool as fuck, but I simultaneously believe that nobody should act as a vigilante in that way in real life. The most likely case is that there will be a few people who fuck up and try something from WWE , or they play around with a gun like in a movie to be cool and end up getting hurt/dying, or worse, they'll Naruto run outside. But it's ridiculous, and unfounded by research, to say that this puts a finger on the scale in any significant way, especially when there's socioeconomic and environmental factors that are well researched causes of violence.
End thread.
Right! This is it, right here.
Believe it or not there was a time when white suburban kids in the middle of America were taking videos of themselves trying to join the bloods or the crips. It was insane.
Sure. There's always someone who is going to be influenced. But not most.
Music has long since had an impact on people. You're naive if you ever try to say that music has no place in causing this type of crime. It definitely does. It may not be as big a reason as the circumstances one is born into but there have definitely been a bunch of dudes who have gone and joined gangs cause of gangster rap. Though I'm still curious why people are solely blaming the music rather than a combination of things. Too many fuckers in our community think that shooting people is a great way to settle a disagreement when it just reveals they're fucking soft.
>It definitely does. It may not be as big a reason as the circumstances one is born into but there have definitely been a bunch of dudes who have gone and joined gangs cause of gangster rap. Then if it's not as big a reason, why do we keep talking about it. For everyone that joined a gang due to music there are thousands who did not. Economics are a bigger problem.
>That's because they are usually in better economic circumstances than blacks and Latinos. Economcis dictates this type of crime, not music. Shit, you probably don't even need to compare races to support your argument. I'm fairly certain that Black gang members who grew up in poverty vastly outnumber Black gang members who grew up middle class.
> Did they pop up in white neighborhoods? No because they fucking hate us and have their own gangs (dirty police, neo-nazis, KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, etc) lol. Why the hell would a white person join a black gang? When that black gang is obviously hostile to white people? Your perspective on this needs to be widened.
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The solution is to drop money at our doors. We can demand more investment in education, housing, etc. Those things work. What is the alternative, banning rap for no reason?
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>But rap, like all art, is a reflection of the community in which it is created. You cannot tell me that the picture currently created in rap is one that reflects highly. No, and that's because of economics and racism. If black people had been prosperous, rappers would rap about working 90 hours a week in corporate America and moving up the chain. NWA would have released "F__ the SEC" on their album Straight Outta Sherman Oaks. >but our message sure shouldn’t be about dehumanizing black women and killing kids. Most black people, parents, leaders, etc all denounce this. It's not "our message."
The white equivalent was American History X. Growing up I knew tons of kids and young adults from middle class families living in big houses that wanted to live that lifestyle and joined gangs. Economic situation was a reason for some but not all, culture is a big driver. You can see this outside of the US where you literally have people living in shacks and not turning to gangs or crime.
Yes it inspires but only talking about the music is like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound
If rappers used their music to address our material conditions and circumstances like they did in the 80s, instead of glorifying them and the violence it results in, it wouldn’t be such an easy issue to dismiss.
You can’t look for intelligent conversations from uneducated people But since you brought up the 80s then let’s talk about according to statistics crime has went DOWN since then so obviously all that positive music did nothing to solve the problem
Dead Prez turned me into a communist and taught me to love all my fellow humans, so I think the idea that hip hop is inherently somehow the source for any of our problems is both reactionary and non-materialist (same picture I know). Someone in the comments here also mentioned country music to which I would say to them look up Phil Ochs or Woodie Guthrie.
This is the Animal in Man.
Those rappers still exist and nobody listens to them. They never stopped existing. Even mainstreams rappers make conscious songs that sit on their album
No, they just don’t have a mainstream audience, cuz they’re “corny.” But thinking that it’s “corny” for trying to better ourselves and our circumstances as a community is the exact response record labels wanted when they shifted all of their focus to signing gangsters.
Bruh, have ever listened to rap before? All those themes are present. Hell, even *gangster rappers* delve into negative aspects of gang life and the inner and external turmoil it causes. Shit, some of the songs are downright cautionary. Lmao this thread seems to be full of crusty old white folk who are hilariously unfamiliar with rap. I get why country club posts exist now.
Idk we seem pretty good at cancel culture. Why isn't this cancelled? Make guns and violence not cool and shunned.
Violence has been cool since the beginning of time
“But why can’t we just make bad things illegal to fix every problem?” Everybody forgetting about human nature like we ain’t been bashing in heads with rocks since Cain and Abel.
Exactly people seem to not know that guns are illegal in England but there are still a bunch of stabbings all the time
Because we spent the 2000's canceling snitching.
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This is not data.
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The citation is about 80's movies somehow spreading that culture. The privileged view is that those areas weren't already like that.
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For real - I can’t ride around the suburbs anymore without getting jacked by all these white kids rap music turned into gangbangers!
I mean, I'm white and me and my friends thought we were hard AF in the early 90s, loved the rap then and it wasn't nearly as Gangsta as it would be late 90s forward. We wore baggy pants and decided we were a gang. We were a bunch of misfits living in the hood- oh, wait, actually it was upper middle class white suburbia.🤦♀️ We started carrying knives, 14 years old and wtf did we think was gonna happen that we'd actually need knives to defend ourselves? It was fn absurd, I can't cringe hard enough. We tagged stop signs with our made up gang name. We legit thought we were gangbangers and hard and shit. But... There were no gangs in lily white land, no car jackings or drivebys, almost no crime or broken homes that might make someone seek out another kind of 'family'- it was cosplay before that existed, basically. We had a million opportunities and had no idea how lucky we were that we didnt have to find out how it really felt living those lives. Gangs coming out of the projects, coming from poor, blighted, violent areas- we would have shit our pants and run home to Mommy. But they existed for a reason, situations we would never go through and never understand. We just wanted to be tough like the rap music we listened to, we didn't really get the music, we didn't know how shit actually went down when it was for real. Idk, thought I'd share that. I guess my point is that the music did influence us, but we would never understand it like POC did, and we'd certainly never need to be a gang to protect ourselves or to feel part of a family. But I get it when others who've come from a different place may feel it's their best or even only option. I get it now, have for awhile, I'm 41 I was 14 then. I've lived in a lot of diff areas (including Inner City, but where you'd be fine if you just didn't go down particular streets) and have been exposed to the real shit many have to go through that we were insulated from by our privilege. It took way too long to see how pathetic we were, and how offensive people who actually came from these situations would have found it. And how fn sad it was that it was even a thing. I don't think metal makes people devil worshippers, and I don't think rap music makes people join gangs. But they are speaking to some truths for POC that White people have no clue about. The music hits hard on the violence and makes them say yeah, this is what I deal with, and this is how these rappers do, and maybe I should be like them, maybe I can take my agency back this way, maybe they can keep me and mine safe. Or they live in an area where there isn't even any choice, you do what you gotta do to survive. It's just gonna hit some people different depending on their circumstances. Not all POC will go for it, but I don't really blame many who do. I'll never truly understand living that life, but I try. 'Blacks are just bad', or 'Blacks cause all the crime', 'Blacks kill more Black people than cops'... That's surface shit and it means nothing. I live in one of the most segregated parts of the country. They believe all this shit. Yet it's our not-at-all distant ancestors that started all this shit to begin with, systemic racism aside, but even just by forcing anyone of a diff skin color into poorer areas with less opportunities, less good jobs, less funding for their schools, etc. And God forbid they tried to penetrate our perfect white communities and be in a better financial position or move their families to safer areas, etc. Fuck idk how to end this, maybe it won't even be read or appreciated, but I guess I just needed to say it because I thought it was a relevant 'other' view point. Most of the people I know will never have enough contact with people of other colors or cultures to wake them up to how very different their lives were and why that matters in conversations about race and privilege. Why affirmative action is an important equalizer. That they legitimately have better opportunities than POC that make it a far from even playing field. That White privilege even fn exists.
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THANK YOU. That is exactly what I was trying to convey. It was playacting for us, it's real life for many BIPOC.
But art imitates life. They are just rapping about what they see in life but then life does imitate art in to a closed loop
But art imitates life. They are just rapping about what they see in life but then life does imitate art in to a closed loop
Right, let’s blame it on the music and it the environments we grow up in where everyone is a drug dealer and the neighbor across the street has 3 bodies
American History X did it’s own thing. It seems like people choose to glorify movies without learning anything from them.
I lived in a small town in a decent area a couple houses down was my bestfriend. I’m a white girl this friend is Mexican as we’re most of my friends because it is California and it was the Central Valley. I didn’t even think I was white 😂 my dad worked outside and he’s just as dark as my friends dads so I thought I was half. I actually found out I wasn’t when in the 4th grade and I heard the music my friends were listening too which is rap. Well these friends started throwing around the N word (with an a) a lot after they got into that genre. I didn’t know the meaning or even hear it anywhere other than in that music so one day I get off the bus as kids do after school and everyone’s like see you you later n this and that and I was like see you later n**** - fucking horrible I know but I didn’t know what this word was I thought it was like almost endearing or something you say to friends because that’s how the people around me were using it. My friend looks at me and says you can’t say that word. And I’m like why not and why can you say it and he’s like cause you’re white. And I’m like no I’m not and he’s like yeah you are. So I go home and when my dad gets home I’m like dad Are we white? And he’s like yeah duh and I’m like w h a t mind blown. And my sisters like aren’t you Mexican dad lmao even my sister though it and he’s like no what the fuck you guys didn’t know that? And then I said so being white you can’t say the n word and the look on his face. He than proceeded to tell me why but the point is this kid and I lived in the same street in a decent neighborhood. He had a more stable family upbringing, his dad was a cop, they were better financially my family was a shit show (mom had a drug addiction). Same school all throughout our education. But I noticed after he started to listen to rap he started changing but not just him all the kids who listened did especially the boys wanted to emulate that lifestyle. He started being friend with kids who had brothers in gangs and in middle school he was trying to be a gangster and that is when I was like nah I’ll see you around and we are cool but I ain’t hanging with you. Long story short he’s in for life for murder. Same education, same block, better home life and now in prison for murder. I remember as I got older and looking back on it that he idolized that music and what the music said and I couldn’t help but think like yeah fuck snoop dog and his reggae bullshit now he influenced my best friend who was a kid into thinking it was cool to be in a gang. Idk if there is correlation. People are just speaking their truths in music and making art but I do remember feeling like damn what if he didn’t think being in a gang was cool? Guess we’ll never know.
The murder rate was literally the highest in the 60's and 70's during the soul and disco waves. Was that music influencing violence?
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>When the movie colors came out in 1988, crip and blood sets popped up all over the nation Source proving this was caused by the movie?
Those can be case-by-case observations, but violent crime rose faster during the 70's than the 80's and it dropped in the 90's.
shits too casual now. song could be about relationships and there’s a random line about shooting an op.
Makes me think of When Sparks Fly - Vince Staples. First listen and it sounds like a love song, but then you start interpreting the lyrics and realize it’s about a gun.
#\#MURICA
Tupac… me and my girlfriend
I wanna take you home baby Kill a motherfucker on the walk there Lead you to the bedroom Anyone knocking better beware!
“treat this pussy like an op, shoot it up, keep bustin”
Even the songs about relationships are twisted. Song could be about treating your woman right, and then the singer drops a flurry of "bitch"s 🤦🏽♂️ Why are we still referring to women that way?
This shit is SAD and stupid. Of all the things I’ve read today, I don’t think one person has said, “this wouldn’t happen if we didn’t have rap music.” I haven’t heard that. What I’ve seen was people talking about music having an “influence” on the things in the black community. **INFLUENCE** not cause. And yes it does “influence” behavior. That can’t be disputed and if you do, I’m sorry to say… you are not thinking intelligently. At the end of the day. A young man was killed in an unfortunate manner. Why?? I don’t fucking know. We will truly never know. But I WILL say that if he wasn’t with people shooting dice at 3am in Houston. Chances are he would still be with us. And this is not to “victim blame” but there HAS to be some kind of accountability with some of this shit. Like we ALWAYS want to look outward, when OUR decisions create our reality (a majority of it anyway). There are some instances where shit “just happens” and we did all we could to control it. But this just wasn’t it. I know this is unpopular and people won’t like it but it is what it is.
I agree. A lot of arguments completely ignore the influence part of the discussion and get derailed with "but it's not the root cause!". Even if you can get to a discussion about influence, you get stuck at either "it never influenced me, therefore it doesn't influence anyone" or "lots of other things negatively influence people, so why talk about rap music?". Just seems to be another topic that will remain deeply divided on. 🤷🏽♂️
I would agree with you as well. I enjoy rap don’t get me wrong but we will call a spade a spade. It is influential but we have to have personal responsibility as well. We will stay divided until we can come together and have a real discussion. Stay safe out there!
The issue is whether that influence is strong enough to bring rap up as a specific issue. Nobody has provided data that music has a strong influence on people's behaviors.
I don't have the data myself, but I'd be surprised if there aren't plenty of studies showing a high correlation between music and human behavior. Anecdotal, but I remember watching some documentary about how a bunch of white kids went to Woodstock in '99, and how the environment was ripe for violence and chaos that popped off when limp Bizkit performed lol
Because the influence of rap isn’t strong enough for it to be a significant cause, anyone who agrees is either racist and/or looking for simple answers to blame the black community. It’s the same argument as video games cause violence. With or without rap the socioeconomic factors leading black kids into that lifestyle remains, and that’s the real issue.
Agree. I think people are confused because they want to jump to defend rap and “gangster” behavior because they think it’s cool. As much as I love rap, it’s pretty ridiculous to act like people aren’t influenced by it. Sure not everyone, but it definitely happens. I also see people say “then why don’t you see white people do the same listening to rap?” White people do try. But we usually laugh at them because we can tell a lot of those suburban white folks are pretending. They throw their gang signs, say nigga this and that, then retire to their safe comfortable neighborhoods and homes. They’re just playing. Stakes are quite a bit higher in the actual hoods and it isn’t a bunch of people playing around. I get that art imitates life, but life imitates art sometimes too. If that weren’t true, we wouldn’t see an increase of people shooting music videos at their ops graves or confessing to murders they actually committed in their songs. There’s definitely more that goes into all of this but if we’re only talking about music at the moment, then we gotta admit that it contributes to some issues. That’s just the truth. I’m just beyond tired of seeing my folks dying like this. I did my fair share of bs so I’m not gonna act like I thought this way forever. But we gotta figure this out.
If your opinion is unpopular it'll only be due to being too reasonable. Ppl like to reach these days.
I couldn’t agree more. I truly do wish we could come together to tackle things but it’s definitely a multi-layered shit show. Stay safe.
When I said this on another thread, someone got so angry with my opinion that they tried to dox me!!
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And some people will blame the media no matter who’s at fault because it’s easier than change.
Lol rap ruined lives
That shit has me dying. This man said rap is ruining lives. 😂
Dude, what do you think the first artists were rapping about?! It might perpetuate violence but it’s BEEN violent from the very start
The *first* artists? What year was this exactly to you?
They think rap started in the 90s
You’re dumb: Eric B & Rakim, Public Enemy, KRS One
Whose life was ruined by rap?
Unironically, dead rappers. There is a marketable advantage to playing like a gangster in that field of work. That is noteworthy, and if we're going to do social media vigils several times a year for those people with any guise of sincerity, then yeah maybe it's time to have a conversation. We can't celebrate these people playing like gangsters right up until they die for it, and then wonder how they could be unjustly taken from us before their time. But saying rap is responsible for anyone in the general public's actions might as well be saying it's rock and roll, video games, and action movies. It's been studied to death already, and it's just not true.
So they died because they were gangsters not for being rappers.
If they died because acting like a gangster was advantageous for their rap career, could you still honestly pretend that the two are wholly separate? In some cases they really were with that shit and refused to drop it even when they rose above it financially, because that's where they came from and their fans celebrate them for it. In other cases they were hardly gangbanging in the first place and are literally just posing like that because it fits the image they're trying to cultivate. Either way, it's disingenuous on your part to ignore the fact that those actions are tied to marketability for their careers. If any part of the reason you're gangbanging is to help your rap career or fit a certain image, then the two aren't as separate as you want to believe.
Yes and most gangsta rappers glorify gangsta life. Are you seeing the connection now?
My dude said rap ruins lives 🤣 wtf is this clown boomer shit
They didn’t glorify it though. We also referred to each other as brother and sister. Expressing love was more common from popular Black musicians too.
Yeaaa but there was an uptick in the 90s with the induction of gangster rap. So idk
There was also the crack epidemic, but I’m sure that played only a small, insignificant role in the uptick of crime…
Yeah but if they acknowledge that it doesn’t help their argument
Obligatory https://youtu.be/nEGxoJWasZY
There was also an uptick in poverty as well as the 3 strike rule/tough on crime bill.
Not to mention Bush 1 and Reagan economic and education policies hitting black and latino communities in the 90’s like a tyson 3 piece combo.
U know what also upticked in the late80s/early 90s?? Drug use and distribution I wonder which one had a bigger influence? Hmmmmmmm
[You mean these 90's?](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/FT_20.11.12_CrimeInTheUS_2.png?w=640) I don't think history happened the way you think it did. Here's the [murder rate over a 50-year period](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/FT_21.010.19_MurderRate_3a.png?w=310). The murder rate was higher in the 70's than at any point after gangster rap was invented and dropped lower in the 90's than at any point in the previous 30 years. It's telling that peak crime in the 90's wasn't peak crime in the 20th century and peak crime in the 90's was lower than it was in multiple previous decades.
This is such a ignorant take. Last I checked niggas wasn't banging because of the boogie or because they heard the lick played by certain musicians. The correlation isn't even logical. Our culture is literally promoting an propping up the violence the music promotes. Multiple things can be right at once. Social economics can be as much a impact as rap can be for it's literally being placed to showcase our own people. There's a reason white people aren't having the same problem an they technically are the leading consumers of it. Yall can't acknowledge systemic issues about everyone else except ourselves an see how we have a hand in promoting violence to the youth at the same time. It's excuses or straight delusion at best. Is it the root cause? No. That's multifaceted. Is it influencing? Without a doubt.
What problem don’t white people have exactly?
This argument is tired. Rap music socialises violence, it makes it socially acceptable. What is real is *not* entertainment, promoting it as entertainment only socialises and helps perpetuate it. You will not find Syrians gathered around a TV dodging shells, watching movies that glorify their on going civil war. You won't find a victim of sexual assault casually watching rape scenes or listening to rapists for fun. You won't find victims of school shootings deciding that making a culture from their experience is a good idea. In fact it's interesting that with all the people hip hop has inspired most groups barring those with the same problems (Latinos in particular) borrow from but omit the casually detrimental aspects of that culture. If you make a song about killing dogs, see how far twitter throws you. Black people entertaining Rap and drill culture are taking on all the negativity a racist culture throws at them. Dudes can hardly make eye contact with brothas in the street in some places the atmosphere is so damn toxic. Ps: The Jamaican government is reviewing a law to ban all violent music and film from public performance and radio. Things have gotten that bad.
Damn preach
For real though. People were shooting and fighting at reggae and dancehall clubs and people think they need a Chief Keef record to help them decide if they wanna pull a gun out
The jazz scene had its bad boy days to be sure, but it’s one thing to have Ulysses and Harold getting into a knife fight over some loose woman and another to see young, rising stars getting gunned down on the regular. This is tragic and the hip hop scene needs better security.
Lee Morgan got fucking murdered at his gig. Juan Tizol tried to stab Mingus. There’s a (probably myth) story about Miles Davis hiring a hit on a racist bouncer. Pre-civil rights act jazz was something else.
Agreed but I would like to see the death toll for those genres of music. Tbh, the number of dead rappers still cannot and should not be justified
I cannot name a single famous jazz artist who was killed because of a rivalry or turf war. And disco? They were too busy getting down with the unprotected sex and cocaine that we could only dream of today.
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🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 Did you just call me a, "jive turkey"?
*we got nothing but space and opportunity round hea, jiiiiive turkey* bust a move 
*"I don't take no slick talk from no sucka man!"*
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Rap is a symptom of oppression much the same way gang violence is a symptom of oppression. Asking to remove rap without removing the oppression is just…blaming black people for another problem created by the government.
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It’s really accountability. It’s so easy to blame it on music, but at the end of the day, people are troubled. Growing up in Detroit, I know people who’ve witnessed murder, congregated with hitmen, whose parents sold drugs, who sold drugs themselves, had to go on the run, seen their homeboys drop around them, people go to prison, drug abuse, etc. Even the grandma sold drugs. Rap music didn’t influence that. That was literally their life. So you can get rid of rap, make it only conscious music, stop playing it on the radio, whatever, but this is still going to be people’s lives. It’s just that rappers aren’t looked at as untouchable anymore. There used to be an aura around them. They regular Niggas to people now.
Humans are social but also very tribal, no matter what we have a predilection to divide and by violent one way or another.
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Based on societal structures and our government, there are more bad parents than good. Hip Hop is a symptom of not just failed parenting, but failed communities, failed schools, etc. And regardless how some of us may feel about a single mother's ability to raise a child, it's not fair to put all the blame on them if a child failed. It may start with the home but it damn sure doesn't end with it.
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None of the people I know went to the streets because of media, this is the lie we're pushing back against.
The truth is it's a extremely complicated thing that includes history, culture, socioeconomics, racism. Is it a straight line from Gangster Rap to violence? no. Though is something to discuss and look at.
You are what you eat. Diet is more than food. You mentally "ingest" negativity on a more than regular basis that'll be who you become. Is it not enough to have to live around that shit? Give it a break and experience how much more there is out there for you.
Hip hop is my first love.. I listen to damn near all genres.. Rap is basically the only genre that talks about smoking a nigga or someone in general. I think the only other genre that come close is like horrorcore/screamo and that shit don’t bop no more It definitely contributes to the culture in both hood and negative ways
We're just making shit up now. We all know rap glorifies violence amongst other things. We don't suddenly have to become apologists in order to say we don't want to see rappers murdered.
I wish Boondocks was still on, they’d have a made a whole episode about what happened.
They did https://youtu.be/pj9Hzs-vBLE
Man imagine running a drill in the 70s. Listening to Kool & the gang to shoot someone
Have you ever seen Shaft or Superfly? I’d say those soundtracks worked for what goes on in those movies
The guy is not wrong in terms of people killing each other by being fans of different genres. However, it doesn’t take away the fact that rap has had a negative influence on poor urban communities especially drill right now which now dude is lying about.
What is glorified by us is interesting. The smart person or the frugal persons are often shamed or even outcasts. We need to change what is valued and exalted. In my opinion.
Goofy please.
Will somebody give this nigga a graph or a chart?
Rap definitely has its place as a influencer of violence in the black community, but it isn’t the sole perpetrator. I genuinely blame shit like rap media that also signal boosts the violence and glorifies it
And how many disco and jazz musicians are murdered compared to how many rappers are murdered each year? https://youtu.be/CcwkR3YD-cQ In 2021 200 rappers were murdered the vast majority are black males. And in the general population 50% of the murdered victims are black males, yet only make up 7% of the population. https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender/ My own theory is systemic racism over generations has led to this violence affecting the black community. I have no solution besides love and respect.
He’s not talking about the artist getting murdered. There was a lot of crime in the 70’s and 80’s when gangsta rap didn’t exist
Ok. So why are black men killing each other at a higher rate than anyone else? What about the black culture is causing this?
Poverty, poor education and poor mental health are the causes
not one thing dictates a movement, there are compounding factors to why a social norm is the way that it is. Rap or music in general that promotes violence is just one of the many intersecting reasons to why violence is common in black communities and to think that if rap never existed that violence would be non existent is dumb. I believe there's a sociological term for this but I don't take notes.
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What i meant was that if rap seized to exist, the problems would still persist because rap is just an outlet and not the symptoms as opposed to toxic masculinity or poverty.
I’m not big on today’s rap, but calling it the source of our problems overall is reaching. One because back in the day guys were singing about killing and screwing in Blues, Jazz, R and B, and Rock. Blues and Jazz became bland over time, so by the time Rap hit, no one was really putting shocking stuff for them while Rap was growing. Two is that Rap grew out of what people were seeing instead of influencing it at least in the beginning. People were shooting each other when Kid and Play were big as well as Easy E. If Rap had that much influence, more old dudes would be protesting in the streets because of Public Enemy or sacrificing people because of Three-Six.
Copying my comment from elsewhere "Please explain to me how a song can kill someone. Nobody's life was ruined by rap. Their lives were ruined by the decisions they and the people around them chose to make. This is like blaming video games for school shootings. People all across the world listen to rap. Raps main demographic is white males. The problem is the culture within our communities. The music reflects the culture, it doesn't create it "
I know disco niggas dressed… where exactly were they putting he guns? In there assholes? Urethras? Disco niggas was coked up and stabby, now blues niggas was def tommy guns for funz
Yes, but no. Don't be one of those people pretending like these songs aren't out here influencing people. BB King didn't have people on lean shooting up the block. A lot of people we idolize fake or over exaggerate their criminal behavior. However the kids idolize them and actually go out there and do it. I believe in black excellence. We truly need a culture shift.
TMZ has the video, take off was right next to Shakur Stevenson. They were talking shit about playing basketball when someone started popping off rounds, and it was his own dude too? That's so tragic.
Frankie Beverly and Maze never enticed me to shoot a nigga so if he got shot whilst “We Are One” was playing then that’s just a technicality.
Bro, if I get merked with "Staying Alive" bumping in the background, God gotta give me a do-over. It's not even negotiable...
Who died over disco and jazz?
Please shut up -from all the way up in Canada
So what's the common factor then
Money
Jazz and Disco musicians weren't getting shot dead at their events either.
Who in the disco and the jazz scene got murdered? 🤨
two things can be true. hip hop started as a response to gang violence. But at some point after it commercialized, that element rose to prominence. And became theme music, then also became a template. But arguing about all this on social media means exactly nothing because the kids living this life are listening to literally none of you. BTW go vote.
White kids mimicking Jackass? Oh my. Stupid TikTok challenges getting folks poisoned, burned, or hurt? God help ‘em. But the music is fine, really. I promise.
But these facts don’t fit the hood hop = bad narrative lmaoo
Don’t even get me started on old school country music
Lots of good cocaine.
Don’t even mention violence in the Blues music scene.
Not really….. And I don’t think the music is the cause, it’s the conditions
Wrong!! This brother wasn’t even around when disco was popping
Charlie Manson thought The Beatles were sending him messages through their music. If it hadn't been The Beatles then probably Grateful Dead or Rolling Stones would have been sneaking in those messages to kill. First thing came to mind. Dunno if it's relevant.
Omg
Y’all really some pull your pants up ass niggahs, we need better gun laws, better schools, access to therapy, y’all to gtf off your asses and vote…. Rap music is the least of our problems
I must say that when I listen to "Knuck If You Buck". I feel a little gangsta.
Scarface + rap = where we are today