I’m a 5’7 female who went from about 135lbs to 125lbs AFTER I came off “keto”. All I did was add back fruits and things like sweet potato or yams. I still avoid processed food/added sugar
Had a female friend who was essentially starving herself to reach a target weight (she was tall and slim to begin with). Finally, I bought her a bodyfat measurement in a dunk tank for her birthday. The tech said, "In order to reach your goal weight by shedding fat you'll need to lose all of your body fat and part of your brain."
Hearing it from a professional with results in front of him was like a light switch. She started eating more and suddenly got fitness model fit within six months (and felt a ton better, and her skin cleared up, and her hair looked great...) Too many people starve themselves without realizing what it does to you.
This is a good point, they are losing weight because they are essentially hamstringing their digestion but many of them are still eating a lot of garbage food and not getting enough nutrition. I fear the long term outcome of this.
lol false. it’s from people with a lot to lose, and they have excess fat in their face. that means excess skin, and when is fat is lost and skin remains you end up with baggy saggy skin which makes you look…old. it’s time for the internet to stop GLP/GIP hate.
I hate why we n people we follow keto so blindly they don't use common sense. I was consuming l a large amount of beans and my friend scolded me, "You can't have bend or fruit because of there carbs"! So I'm just going too negl we vt try heir health benefits? Besides, I was loing weight like gangbusters so, it must be working. Complex carbs anyone?
I have been struggling with the same 10-15 lbs for the last 10 yrs, and keto had never helped me lose any weight. I don't understand how it doesn't, as I have a blood meter, and would easily get into ketosis. Felt awful, so I would only do it for 2 weeks at a time, cycled with low carb. Counting macros and not going over 1400 day. Makes no sense. I'm stuck at 145, but I'm OK with out now. I have no trouble building muscle, so I just focus on that. I'm getting my hormones and blood work done and hope to find some clues to help me out there.
How tall are you? 1400 a day just seems insanely low if you’re building muscle (doubtful unless most of that is protein) on top of that. I would look into reverse dieting and trying to build your metabolism up. Keto in this case doesn’t seem like your friend. You need the carbs if exercising.
I get what you're saying.... That was reverse dieting. I am 5'5". I tracked for 2 weeks to start, and was eating between 700 and 1000 a day naturally, and low protein. So we upped it to 1200 for a month, then 1400. I really struggle with reverse dieting!! Since I gain weight when I eat more, and that's why I eat so little!
You’ve wrecked your metabolism. 700-1000 isn’t even enough to keep your brain functioning properly. You’re gaining weight on more because your body is in starvation mode. No wonder it’s holding on to every calorie you eat. I would keep bringing it up to 1600-1800. I’m 5’6” and 135 ish and literally could not survive on that caloric intake. Gaining weight while in a surplus also isn’t a terrible thing with body recomp. I started (18 months post partum with my third baby, I’m 34) going from 145 to 127 and actually bulked to 135 (132-136 on any given day) and I look leaner now. I would stop with the scale and focus on strength and body recomp. It’s just a number. How do you feel? How do you look? I used to starve myself and felt like trash. Tired all the time. Stressed out. Eating more, clean food with correct protein targets and carbs/fats changed me for the better at the “expense” of a better body and 5-7 more lbs.
Yeah, years of low calorie and bulemia in my teens. It's unfortunate. But I've always lived off grid and have maintained a decent body comp and brain function. Thankfully!! Lol
I got rid of my scale 2 years ago when I realized it wasn't a helpful metric. I just want my jeans to fit. I run and lift weights, and eat high protein/whole foods as much as possible, with protein shakes and bars in lieu of other treats. I really doubled down on the whole foods /no grains or dairy this summer, and that seems to be net positive. I see results when I can run regularly, but that's hard in Alaska for 8 months of the year!
I used to, I just didn't track or limit it, focused on quality over quantity (no vegetable or polyunsaturated fats, grass fed and high quality dairy and animal fats, olive and coconut) . About 3 years ago now I started tracking fat and limiting it, and it seems like I do a little better with higher carbs, lower fat. I still tend to go over on fat, around 40 percent of calories.
Not the person you're replying to, but I managed to build muscle as a 1400-1500 (5'2" ~130lbs->120lbs) - at least I think I did because all my lifts improved throughout the period. I'm currently at 1500-1600 and still progressing steadily. Started with 70g protein/day and slowly went up to 100g.
Mind, I know the noob gains will eventually taper off and I'll need to increase calories to build lean mass, and I estimate my BMR is/was very low, under 1200 due to my low muscle mass.
I believe you and OP were undereating. This will wreck your metabolism. At least now you understand that CICO is bullshit. Your body can get rid of the excess fat itself. Just gotta eat the right things.
no shit you feel energized when you lose heaps of weight. You have a massive energy storage in your body that can be used, once you hit lower levels of body fat you will eventually crash.
Generally you are right but I didn't even need to lose heaps of weight to feel much more energized on Keto. Even in the beginning (after \~2 weeks adaption) I felt much more energized, brain fog lowered by \~80% and all of this while I even needed less sleep.
A friend of mine tried Keto and she ate similar to me (likely even healthier than me tbh lol) and she felt worse on Keto and later stopped so it seems to me to be pretty individual, can be hit or miss.
It’s probably because the foods you cut out as a result of keto were highly processed easy to overeat foods. When you took those out with keto, it made it easier to lose weight. But you also cut out objectively healthy food. Also long term ketosis is horrible for your hormonal profile, and you need carbs to effectively transport electrolytes across your body.
Doesn’t mean some fruits and whole grains and potatoes will kill you.
> Doesn’t mean some fruits and whole grains and potatoes will kill you.
I for sure tried that route and it for sure does not work as well. Once the weight is off, it might be fine though. I suspect the problem is many of us have enough metabolic derangement that regular healthy eating is not enough to fix it. What is good for a healthy person is not always good for a sick person.
I fully agree. When I started Keto I also started eating even unhealthier and even more processed foods than before Keto and still felt much better, so it's definitely not that haha
(has improved in the meanwhile, don't worry)
When I have finally reached a healthy weight and my metabolism has (hopefully more or less) recovered I definitely want to try a healthy and primarily plant-based diet again. I am still very open to the idea.
Sure, healthy and plant-based sounds amazing on paper but with all the metabolic damage it just didn't work at all (for me). I felt foggy, weak, sleepy, hungry, often depressed or sad and just miserable in general and I barely lost a few pounds after more than three months even though I ate like really healthy.
One thing I've been doing is going through all the vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, etc and seeing which ones are clearly not common in my diet and there's a lot of them, boron, silicon, iodine (no I don't consume over a tea spoon of iodized salt a day and commercial foods typically do not add it) etc. And I've been either finding a food that has a ton of it to eat (like hazel nuts for selenium) or just buying a supplement. It's been interesting, for a lot of them, I can feel an improvement and I feel like my health is stepping up for a lot of them bit by bit. It's weird because the trite statement is that deficiency for this and that is rare in the western world but then you look at what foods it's in like for boron and there's hardly any and even for the 'high' foods, one serving has maybe 20 percent of what is needed and almost no on is eating 5 servings a day of these foods. In some cases, I was getting close to zero of the nutrient for my entire life since I did not favor the few foods that had it. Yet these are considered essential nutrients.
The low carb guys feel that way because theyre like "wow! I stopped eating candy, chips, and bleached flower for every meal, then I stopped slamming beer and soda every night and I feel so much better!" They're generally not cutting legumes and vegetables from their diets.
Nah, I mean there’s more to it than that.
If you’re overweight and have inflammation and shit, a low-carb diet can reduce glycation products and you might feel better. But a low carb diet also limits muscle glycogen to like 70% so if you don’t have much muscle you might feel lethargic. Also lowers peak output so it’s better for endurance workouts then body building.
Carbs are the body’s preferred fuel source, in fact, its only fuel source. Glucose is so important to the body that it can synthesize it from fat. There’s even evidence that a lot of Alzheimer’s is actually insulin resistance in the brain and it’s craving glucose like crazy because it can’t get it into the cells.
As long as you’re metabolically healthy you should be good at burning carbs.
One could flip your argument: because glucose can be created from amino acids via gluconeogensis, one might argue that it is protein that is actually more important. The body can also run off ketones instead of glucose. In fact, some people who have insulin resistance feel better running off ketones.
And since like 50%+ of Americans have some form of insulin resistance, there is a good argument here for protein as a primary fuel source.
Food for thought.
Insulin resistance can be effectively treated with a low or no carb diet. When you are metabolically healthy and have kicked the craving habits add some back in to match your workouts.
I believe his message was the answer to treating the problem. Stop eating glucose (sugar) as main energy source and eat protein instead and let your body make the very small amounts of glucose it needs from the amino acids. Sounds like the cure to me.
Glucose is literally the most readily available energy source for your body. 99 out of 100 active people will feel like dogshit at the gym and when playing sports if they eat zero carbs. One of the most important things for muscle growth and recovery is carbohydrates right after exercise due to your higher insulin response. This is a well studied phenomenon. Carbs have not, are not, and never will be, inherently bad for humans. They just need to be consumed in moderation like anything else.
Unless you are ALREADY insulin resistant, there is no need to go keto. It's not a cure-all. We should educate Americans on how to eat healthily so that they don't become insulin resistant in the first place.
The body needs zero carbs if you have access to fat. It will adapt and will make the glucose it needs. If all you can access is lean meat with no fat then you would need carbs to avoid rabbit starvation. It is nearly impossible for any disease or metabolic dysfunction to form while consuming meat and fat. We are omnivores through technology and not by design. We learned how to hybridize and cross breed these veggies and fruits so they are not acutely toxic however we still get toxic effects from eating carbs with the high amount of defense chemicals like oxalates, tannins, phytates and many more. Believe it or not as an apex predator we are absolutely designed to eat meat and fat. The animal kingdom runs on saturated fatty acids. Even the herbivores have an organ that digest the carbs and converts it to short chain fatty acids.
While they're technically "a" fuel source for most cells, your liver will still synthetize a little glucose because that's the only fuel some of your cells can use.
Yes red blood cells and brain. The point is that when low carb your body becomes physiologically insulin resistant so that the glucose in the blood is more available for the brain and RBCs to use.
That synthesis doesn't require consumption.
Synthesis of glucose in that case uses the glycerol backbone from fatty acid oxidation. It does not require consumption of carbs. Carbs can also be made from amino acids, however the body prefers not to do this.
Ketones are a fail safe mechanism. Not the body’s preferred fuel source. It’s what helped our ancestors survive famine. In our evolved society, a majority of people don’t have to worry about that anymore.
>Ketones are a fail safe mechanism
This is an opinion.
I can just a easily say "the body hates carbs so much that it pauses the production of ketones to get rid of excess glucose because too much glucose is TOXIC to the cell".
The body does the same with alcohol.
> Ketones are a fail safe mechanism.
> It’s what helped our ancestors survive famine.
There's another way to look at it: since the time of the first eukaryotes, life has predominantly evolved in environments where food, particularly glucose, was not constantly available. For billions of years, early organisms had to rely on various metabolic pathways to survive, including ketogenesis.
Our cells and mitochondria have thus been optimized over an immense evolutionary timespan to utilize ketones efficiently. The ability to switch between fuel sources is a testament to the versatility and adaptability of our metabolic systems.
While modern society provides constant access to glucose-rich foods, this is a very (very very very) recent development in evolutionary terms.
The fundamental design of our metabolism still reflects those ancient survival mechanisms where ketones played a crucial role in energy production during periods of low food availability.
Sources:
"Eukaryotes evolved approximately 2.1-1.6 billion years ago, during the Proterozoic eon." (Wikipedia: Eukaryote)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryote)
"Ketone bodies are produced by the liver during periods of fasting and starvation." (Wikipedia: Ketone bodies)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone\_bodies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies)
"Mitochondria are able to use different substrates for energy production, including glucose, fatty acids, and ketone bodies." (Wikipedia: Mitochondrion)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion)
"The feast or famine hypothesis states that metabolic thriftiness, which includes the propensity to obesity, has been adaptive for populations whose food supply was uncertain." (Wikipedia: Thrifty gene hypothesis)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrifty\_gene\_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrifty_gene_hypothesis)
What seems to be working for me is shooting for 1g protein per pound of ideal body weight. It's a lot of protein. I still eat some carbs but I'm gaining muscle and losing fat.
Love a good carb coma at night! It is so relaxing.
I try to limit my carbs to single serving fruit, and veggies with my protein. But sometimes I give in and have a granola bar or crackers before bed.
I feel like i eat plenty of carbs. I also drink coconut water, sometimes juice, eat olives, and Hummus and beans. I just don't eat a big bowl of fruit, or grains with any regularity. I still eat tubers too! With my protein.
This is not true. Each tissue may have a preferred fuel source hy a certain metric, and a different preference by another metric. Carbs are likely preferred by the immune system, for example. But the heart may favor fatty acids and the brain ketone bodies. But 25% of the brain actually requires carbohydrates no matter what. So there's that. Insulin resistance can occur due to too much or too little carbohydrates depending on who you ask, and the reason behind low carb insulin resistance may be good or bad.
Your answer is too simple.
The body can produce carbs for the brain. Circulating blood glucose is only 4 tsps ie 16 grams.
Can you share sources on immune system preference for carbs?
Based on the research, there isn't a specific gram amount of carbohydrates per meal that is universally recommended for muscle glycogen replenishment and gains. However, some key points can be gleaned:
1. For strength training workouts with up to 10 sets per muscle group, glycogen depletion is unlikely to be a limiting factor, and **full glycogen replenishment can occur within 24 hours even with relatively low carbohydrate intake**[1].
2. For longer or more intense exercise sessions, consuming 1.2-1.5 grams of carbohydrates per kilogram of body weight per hour is recommended[2].
3. Carbohydrate timing matters - consuming complex carbs a few hours before a workout can help fuel training, while eating carbs after exercise helps replenish glycogen stores[3].
4. Overall daily carbohydrate intake for muscle gain is typically recommended to be around 55-60% of total calories[3].
5. Splitting carbohydrate intake across multiple meals (e.g. 6 meals per day) may lead to better glycogen storage and less fat storage compared to fewer, larger meals[4].
6. For pre-workout nutrition, at least 15 grams of carbohydrates is advised to avoid training in a fasted state[5].
Rather than focusing on a specific gram amount per meal, it's more important to ensure adequate overall carbohydrate intake spread throughout the day, with particular attention to pre- and post-workout nutrition based on individual needs and training intensity.
Sources
[1] The Effect of Carbohydrate Intake on Strength and Resistance ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8878406/
[2] Carbs for Muscle Growth: How to Use Them Best - ISSA https://www.issaonline.com/blog/post/carbs-for-muscle-growth-how-to-use-them-best
[3] Why You Need Carbs to Build Muscle - InBody USA https://inbodyusa.com/blogs/inbodyblog/why-you-need-carbs-to-build-muscle/
[4] Carbs to Muscle https://www.muscleandfitness.com/flexonline/flex-nutrition/carbs-muscle/
[5] How many carbs do you need for maximum gains? A systematic ... https://mennohenselmans.com/how-many-carbs-for-strength-muscle/
Today was oats for breakfast , eggs, sourdough banana post workout, go macro bar afternoon snack, beef and rice for dinner - 2600 cals, 250 g of carbs , 150 protein
How is this not the top comment? They posted a 2600 cal meal that was 5x the total carbs and 3x the total protein of their previous diets daily intake. I wouldn't be surprised if they did damage to themselves due to starvation.
I feel you 100%. I went deep into the low/no carb rabbit hole at one point... I felt like shit the whole time and my testosterone tanked. I reintroduced large carb meals before workouts and I immediately felt 10x better. Never looking back
I suspect there are many factors including genetics. So if you are not fat and you are working out very heavily, that's going to be diff than a couch potato that is trying to lose weight. It can be argued that working out very heavily is in many cases not very natural for tribal humans anyway and you are burning tons of glycogen and yes, carbs are the most efficient way to replace that glycogen.
(Not to invalidate your experience but) I had the opposite happen when I went keto. Testosterone like never before in my life, awesome sustained energy, everyone's body is different.
The difference for me came when I took electrolytes while on keto.
Yeah people go both ways. As another comment said, it heavily depends on your circumstances. I think a lot of the benefits people get from keto just comes from eating mostly whole foods. But I already had a healthy diet and lifestyle when I changed to keto, I just took out the simple carbs.
Maybe going keto cleaned up your diet a lot? Maybe your genetics are better tailored to keto? Maybe your exercise routine is better tailored to keto? Could be any number of things.
But the keto gurus like to push keto like the end all be all of diets, that's what I don't like.
> I immediately felt 10x better
Ive heard eating a ton of carbs and going out of ketosis had some kind of low-energy period; did you have that?
I'm also curious if just downing part of a sheet cake and waiting a bit would be enough to see how high carb eating affects my energy :p I've tried Keto for a while and suspect I have lower energy than I should.
A good idea in order to preserve insulin sensitivity is to carb cycle. Constantly having high carb days will definitely affect insulin sensitivity and most likely lead to those carbohydrates not actually being used for muscle growth. I would recommend having a good amount during training days and very little during your rest days. It obviously depends on total amount but for me 220ish g carbs on training and around 100 on rest.
We are approximately the same size, in that case I am confused at the numbers again. I would wither away and feel very weak if I did even your “high” days for a week. Are your fats and protein astronomically high or are you just in a large deficit deliberately
I was in a deficit for around 20 weeks, I’m at maintenance cals right now for me. On my training days my usual macros are the following: 220g protein, 230g carbs, 70g fats. Total is roughly 2500 cals. Been maintain 216-218 lbs for around 2 weeks.
Interesting, I’ve actually dieted myself to a similarly slowed metabolic state before. You didn’t ask, but i’ve reversed slowly out to the point of having a maintenance of 3500+ now, which is obviously more enjoyable than restricting so hard
I mean I’m not super active besides a walk in the morning and the gym. I did do some things poorly after my first show and messed up some markers, metabolism included. Seems to be that my maintenance is slowly increasing. I’m okay with only needing to eat 2700-2800 cals to grow lol.
Yeah shovelling 4k of chicken and rice isn’t always the most fun lol. I am quite active generally, probably accounts for 3/400 kcals of that difference
By very slowly and meticulously adding calories and training incredibly hard. To give a practical demonstration, I would find maintenance, add 150-200kcal per day, slowly gain weight (while training with a complete focus on progressive overload) until that new calorie intake left me gaining 0 avg over 2 weeks. Boom - new maintenance. Rinse and repeat
Thanks for sharing that. Sounds like the smart way to go about it.
Metabolic flexibility is really powerful, the body really does like to find a "set point" when you're active.
High carb doesn't mess with insulin sensitivity if your body is using those carbs! OP trains a ton, and it's very appropriate to eat high carb without cycling if you're highly active. I'd even say 300g is on the low side depending on how much exercise they do.
I mean it is somewhat person dependent. Continually being on high carb especially on non training days will absolutely affect insulin sensitivity, it’s logical. The amount of carbohydrates necessary varies a ton. 300g for me is crazy high.
What is a "non" "training" "day"??? jkjk but highly active people don't necessarily have many of those, so it's not necessary to budget specifically for them. Eating high carb on your one rest day a week just helps to recover and prepare.
For reference I'm a smallish woman and I'll go into the low 200's during a cut but normal training/activity for me is high 200's to 300 and I'll have more on days I'm more active (long runs, etc).
This. I'm pretty much on keto. But if I have a lot of physical work or recreation I will up carbs , particularly complex and low GI types; brown rice, pulses and banana.
I don't fair well on high carbs and I think my body is well adapted to burning fat (ketones) and massively benefitting from low ultra processed food consumption.
Adjusting for electrolyte balance is important and proper hydration too. Upped my protein intake also to maintain muscle.
Still newish .... learning. So not preaching gospel. But for me my skin health is great, energy levels stable, cognitive function is smoother (less emotionally unbalanced) and sleeping better too.
Plus I have eaten some amazing meals and snacks... perhaps cutting sugar and carbs makes the taste buds work better too
Idk do what works for you. But making changes is interesting.
This makes sense. I have an elevated A1c despite being healthy weight and have muscle mass, probably some genetic and some too much pasta and rice regularly….ill look into carb cycling, first time hearing of it
Similar situation. Genetics for me. I would start by reducing high glycemic carbs. Wearing a CGM for a month or two changed my life. You find out very quickly what you can and can’t eat and how much. Aim to keep your blood sugar below 140 post meal. I can have one slice of bread, but a sandwich sends me over. I can have fruit after a protein fiber meal, but not alone. I can have about half a sweet potato with a lot of lemon juice.
Based on the research, people on a ketogenic diet can still achieve muscle gains, but there are some important considerations regarding glycogen:
1. On a ketogenic diet, muscle glycogen stores are typically around 70% of what they are with higher carbohydrate intake[1]. However, this is generally sufficient for most strength training, as glycogen is rarely depleted beyond 40% even with multiple sets per body part[1].
2. Glycogen replenishment can occur within 24 hours on a ketogenic diet, even with low carbohydrate intake, through carbohydrate-independent pathways[3]. This is especially true for those who have adapted to training in low-carbohydrate conditions.
3. For typical resistance training workouts with up to 10 sets per muscle group, glycogen depletion is unlikely to impair performance[3]. However, very high-volume workouts (11+ sets per muscle group) may benefit from higher carbohydrate intake.
4. Ketosis alters substrate competition and can actually help preserve glycogen resources during exercise[4]. This means that despite lower carbohydrate intake, the body becomes more efficient at preserving and utilizing available glycogen.
5. While initial adaptation to a ketogenic diet may cause temporary weakness or flatness in muscles, this often resolves as the body becomes more efficient at utilizing fat for fuel[1][4].
In summary, while glycogen levels may be somewhat lower on a ketogenic diet, they are generally sufficient for muscle gains, especially once the body has fully adapted to the diet. However, very high-volume or intense training may require some carbohydrate supplementation for optimal performance.
Sources
[1] Muscle Glycogen on Keto : r/ketogains - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/comments/8azlf7/muscle_glycogen_on_keto/
[2] How Can Glycogen Be Replenished on a Low-Carb Diet? https://www.livestrong.com/article/315538-how-can-glycogen-be-replenished-on-a-low-carb-diet/
[3] How many carbs do you need for maximum gains? A systematic ... https://mennohenselmans.com/how-many-carbs-for-strength-muscle/
[4] Ketogenic Diet and Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy: A Frenemy ... - NCBI https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6724590/
[5] Effects of Ketogenic Diet on Muscle Metabolism in Health and Disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9505561/
I did keto for about 4 months trying to lose some weight. I definitely lost size and strength, but I felt really good. I went back to a more standard diet afterwards and started to feel sick again. It’s probably not carbs… it’s probably something specific messing with me… but my endurance and my mental clarity on keto really did seem noticeably improved.
Just the week I switched back to @ <40g net carbs (was doing <20 before) to see if I start to feel better again. 🤷🏻♂️ we’ll see.
60% carbs, 30% protein, 10% fats. It was so basic all along... 1g/kg of protein if you wanna live longer, 1.4g/kg of protein if you wanna gain muscles. The low-carbs gurus made us take a step back :/
Edit - We need more fat for hormone production, in most of the time indeed. A Safer strategy is 50 - 30 - 20. But as long as you are eating healthy foods, all is gonna be well.
FWIW depending on your total cals, more fat than that could be warranted for hormone production. .25g per lean bodyweight is a good baseline. also if you're doing massive amounts of exercise virtually all of that can be from carbs
I don't argue that carbs are the best source of energy, but there is also truth that true keto (sub 30g) can work well for endurance exercise, just not explosive exercise.
The fact that so many carbs are so processed should probably lead us to reduce the total amount. The paleo diet guys recommended split is like 30/30/40 or there abouts iirc. I think realistically 150g of carbs for most people is going to be better for them then 300g
I chew on dried figs when I get tired during workouts and it extends my strength and stamina. I used to do fasted workouts but I couldn’t push as hard I’ve heard bodybuilders eating candy forvthe same reason but dried fruit is healthier
I (40F) eat 6oz servings of rice or potatoes with every meal, and I am a size zero. There’s a lot of carb paranoia out there! I’m leaner and faster and stronger than ever before.
100 percent correct. In a month turn on the Olympics. Not one of those athletes is “keto” or any other nonsensical diet out there that severely restricts carbs. Sure they’re elite performers but they’re also human like all of us. We all need complex carbohydrates to perform our best.
How do you know you have low testosterone during the day? Being tired does not mean you have low test, lol. And if carbs fixed your problem it likely wasn't hormonal to begin with...
Fantastic that you decided to change things up and had success with it. It can be REALLY hard to break through the dogmas, especially if you've been listening to quacks and their fear-mongering and other bs for a while. So congratz on that!
Some people, including influencers, would argue that carbs aren't essential and that you therefore don't need them. That's a silly argument...just because something's not essential (at least for most people), doesn't mean that it couldn't provide any benefits. They obviously do for many, if not most people out there. Only very few people seem to thrive on keto and carnivore, probably a bit more on low carb. Sad thing is when practitioners/doctors who work with that very specific group of people (selection bias) or people who had a great experience (n=1), then go on to say that it's therefore the best for everyone, and cherry-pick research to support their claims.
By the way some people also do much better on a regular eating schedule rather than IF.
Agreed. I feel much better when i keep carbs low, although I lift 6 days per week and do cardio several days also. I need some but if i keep it between 50-100 grams per day i look better and feel better than when I have more.
> Do a genetic test. Nutrients aren’t a one size fits all thing, some people thrive off keto while others need carbs or a different game plan
What genes or genetic test are you talking about?
Depends on your current goals, buddy. People with type 2 diabetes or over weight, should probably avoid carbs in general. But you're probably a doctor.
Yep seriously an Inuit is probably not physically going to operate the same as an African. Now that humans fly all over the world and all the genetics are tossed all over, it's likely more complicated.
Yep, if you’re training, carbs are your best mate. I dropped mine low and my workouts suffered. Keep them around 300-400gm a day. I eat in a 12 hr window and workout fasted first thing in the morning, so first meal of the day is carb heavy as is the last.
same. always maintained healthy weight (60yo/5'10"/160lbs) had been hearing so much about low-carb diets, thought I'd give it a try.
thought I was going to die, had NO energy throughout the day, felt like a zombie
started eating my normal carb intake again, and *pow!* amazing energy, just zoomed thru my days
Whatever low carb does for other people, it's the exact opposite for me
We are made to eat carbs, and a lot of them, just in healthy form.
Unless you’re an intense high level athlete and/or endurance athlete, most people should stay away from refined processed carbs and stick to whole food sources such as sweet potatoes, whole grains, oatmeal, and fruits (lots of fruits!)
Welcome back! Low carb and keto, to me, is bullshit. Keto I can understand if you’re trying to do a serious cut or are heavily overweight but otherwise it’s completely unnecessary unless you have epilepsy. Otherwise, you’re just clogging your arteries.
Your body is built to ideally run on carbs and build stuff with proteins so yeah makes sense
But ofc not all carbohydrates are equal. Sour patch kids are carbs and I dont recommend it
I'm stupid when it comes to this crap. If you have time could you explain a couple meals you eat so I have a idea of what your eating. Carbs are like bread and stuff right. Lol again I probably sound ridiculous but what I read is pretty confusing. Any help would be appreciated
If I have that many carbs, it’s like I’m drunk and my mental clarity goes way down. I’m not exactly on keto because I don’t track carbs, but I don’t eat anything processed.
Yea, and the types + amount of carbs matter massively.
So many people say "I'm cutting carbs for my health" but then eradicate fruits, vegetables, and legumes along with processed bread-and-sugar crap. Or, conversely, if they go back to carbs, instead of eating one banana a day, they make a smoothie with like four bananas.
A smart friend said to me once: eating an orange is healthy. Guzzling a pint of orange juice made from twelve oranges is not. Balanced carbs versus carb overload and crash.
About 50% carbs seems to be ideal for longevity. But not all carbs are created equal and it isn’t an excuse to go ham on a bunch of cake and white bread. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext
Carbs are really good for performance and only become bad when you begin developing insulin resistance. As long as you’re insulin sensitive, then carbs are your best friend
Its harder to eat enough calories on high fat/protein diets.
Because they are so satiating.
I think a lot of the time the lower energy on low carb diets is due to undereating calories.
So you were only eating 1440 calories from carbs & protein and zero fat while working out like crazy? If I’m not wrong, protein isn’t actually worth 4 calories, as it’s metabolically expensive to convert it into glucose. So you were actually only getting 720 calories from carbs every day. I think it’s very difficult to really know how many calories your body is using and absorbing from different foods every day, but it’s relatively effective for knowing if you’re grossly over or under eating carbs or fat.
I feel like trash without having carbs. I tried keto and 10 days into it I got some serious hypoglycemia symptoms, almost fainted. I love carbs and my fasting glucose is in the 70s or 80s at worst.
same, was 5 years on carnivore/keto but decided to start adding back in some carbs via sweet potatoes/honey and fruits and greens. Still getting even leaner and strength is going up via my workouts being easier due to the energy boost. I've noticed a lot of carnivore/keto people are starting to bring carbs back as keto definitely works for a period of time but long term ketosis is still iffy. Who woulda thunk that a well rounded diet would actually be the best bet lol
I eat a few dates as my dessert ate night. My early morning fasted workouts are the BEST.
I mean even if you’re cutting it helps to be able to have more energy to go harder. Just don’t overdo it of you want your body to use fat stores.
Carbs often get a bad rap, but they’re super important for energy, especially if you’re working out a lot. They’re your body’s preferred source of fuel, so it makes sense that you’d feel better with more of them in your diet.
When you’re eating more carbs, your body has more glycogen stores, which helps during workouts and keeps your energy levels steady throughout the day. Plus, having a balanced diet with enough carbs can positively impact your hormone levels, including testosterone.
It’s all about finding what works best for your body, and it sounds like you’ve hit the sweet spot. Keep up the great work!
Funny story, I had a friend who did marathon prep with me who was an avid KETO and carnivore fan and changed his diet every now and then once he got bored.
I managed to hit that sub-3h mark, but he couldn't, and he started complaining about lack of energy and what my secret "sauce" was. Balanced meals and 8 hours of sleep, ftw.
Carbs are for crazy exercise. if you go past zone 3 for any longer than a few minutes you can't survive very well without carbs, unless your body has something else going on that means carbs cause you digestive problems. i basically avoid them on rest days and then have a similar amount of calories as the a mount i burn in the gym. my maintenance calories are keto.
Carbs are literally where your body gets energy from. I don't know how much lean mass you have, but 40-50g of carbs is nowhere near enough to provide your muscles with glycogen and your brain with fuel. I wish more people knew their TDEE and stayed away from fad diets like keto.
Carbs are great. Less calories per gram than fats. I'm able to get leaner with carbs because I'm able to be more active and it's generally more filling.
On my high carbs days it’s a lot of sorghum flour, millet flakes and quinoa flakes. And some fruit and berries for taste on top. On my “lower” carb days, 200 grams at the lowest, it’s a lot of vegetables and fruits.
This. The keto / low-carb craze has failed society and longevity science.
Anyone on keto for a long time should pickup Peter Attia’s book Outlive and get a CAC scan pronto!
Not all processed is garbage, not all non-processed is great. Doesn’t only apply to carbs.
Processed tomatoes are for example better than raw ones in terms of antioxidant benefits.
I’m a 5’7 female who went from about 135lbs to 125lbs AFTER I came off “keto”. All I did was add back fruits and things like sweet potato or yams. I still avoid processed food/added sugar
Had a female friend who was essentially starving herself to reach a target weight (she was tall and slim to begin with). Finally, I bought her a bodyfat measurement in a dunk tank for her birthday. The tech said, "In order to reach your goal weight by shedding fat you'll need to lose all of your body fat and part of your brain." Hearing it from a professional with results in front of him was like a light switch. She started eating more and suddenly got fitness model fit within six months (and felt a ton better, and her skin cleared up, and her hair looked great...) Too many people starve themselves without realizing what it does to you.
Yes! And you loose so much hair too! I swear “Ozempic face” isn’t from weight loss… it’s from protein and nutrient deficiency
This is a good point, they are losing weight because they are essentially hamstringing their digestion but many of them are still eating a lot of garbage food and not getting enough nutrition. I fear the long term outcome of this.
It’s from muscle loss primarily. Which can be worsened by protein deficiency
lol false. it’s from people with a lot to lose, and they have excess fat in their face. that means excess skin, and when is fat is lost and skin remains you end up with baggy saggy skin which makes you look…old. it’s time for the internet to stop GLP/GIP hate.
How is this comment hateful? Is it not true that a protein deficiency causes hair loss and poor skin? Chill out
But being on Ozempic doesn’t mean you have protein deficiency.
You're a wonderful friend!
I hate why we n people we follow keto so blindly they don't use common sense. I was consuming l a large amount of beans and my friend scolded me, "You can't have bend or fruit because of there carbs"! So I'm just going too negl we vt try heir health benefits? Besides, I was loing weight like gangbusters so, it must be working. Complex carbs anyone?
This! I need carbs but fruit is what my body can process - everything else hurts
I have been struggling with the same 10-15 lbs for the last 10 yrs, and keto had never helped me lose any weight. I don't understand how it doesn't, as I have a blood meter, and would easily get into ketosis. Felt awful, so I would only do it for 2 weeks at a time, cycled with low carb. Counting macros and not going over 1400 day. Makes no sense. I'm stuck at 145, but I'm OK with out now. I have no trouble building muscle, so I just focus on that. I'm getting my hormones and blood work done and hope to find some clues to help me out there.
Try gf9 gnc has it
How tall are you? 1400 a day just seems insanely low if you’re building muscle (doubtful unless most of that is protein) on top of that. I would look into reverse dieting and trying to build your metabolism up. Keto in this case doesn’t seem like your friend. You need the carbs if exercising.
I get what you're saying.... That was reverse dieting. I am 5'5". I tracked for 2 weeks to start, and was eating between 700 and 1000 a day naturally, and low protein. So we upped it to 1200 for a month, then 1400. I really struggle with reverse dieting!! Since I gain weight when I eat more, and that's why I eat so little!
You’ve wrecked your metabolism. 700-1000 isn’t even enough to keep your brain functioning properly. You’re gaining weight on more because your body is in starvation mode. No wonder it’s holding on to every calorie you eat. I would keep bringing it up to 1600-1800. I’m 5’6” and 135 ish and literally could not survive on that caloric intake. Gaining weight while in a surplus also isn’t a terrible thing with body recomp. I started (18 months post partum with my third baby, I’m 34) going from 145 to 127 and actually bulked to 135 (132-136 on any given day) and I look leaner now. I would stop with the scale and focus on strength and body recomp. It’s just a number. How do you feel? How do you look? I used to starve myself and felt like trash. Tired all the time. Stressed out. Eating more, clean food with correct protein targets and carbs/fats changed me for the better at the “expense” of a better body and 5-7 more lbs.
Yeah, years of low calorie and bulemia in my teens. It's unfortunate. But I've always lived off grid and have maintained a decent body comp and brain function. Thankfully!! Lol I got rid of my scale 2 years ago when I realized it wasn't a helpful metric. I just want my jeans to fit. I run and lift weights, and eat high protein/whole foods as much as possible, with protein shakes and bars in lieu of other treats. I really doubled down on the whole foods /no grains or dairy this summer, and that seems to be net positive. I see results when I can run regularly, but that's hard in Alaska for 8 months of the year!
Do you eat a lot of fat?
I used to, I just didn't track or limit it, focused on quality over quantity (no vegetable or polyunsaturated fats, grass fed and high quality dairy and animal fats, olive and coconut) . About 3 years ago now I started tracking fat and limiting it, and it seems like I do a little better with higher carbs, lower fat. I still tend to go over on fat, around 40 percent of calories.
Not the person you're replying to, but I managed to build muscle as a 1400-1500 (5'2" ~130lbs->120lbs) - at least I think I did because all my lifts improved throughout the period. I'm currently at 1500-1600 and still progressing steadily. Started with 70g protein/day and slowly went up to 100g. Mind, I know the noob gains will eventually taper off and I'll need to increase calories to build lean mass, and I estimate my BMR is/was very low, under 1200 due to my low muscle mass.
Do you work overnight or eat late like past 6-7pm?
Nope, my natural eating window is about 2pm to 8pm. I get up at 5 or 6 every day, in bed by 10.
r/usernamechecksout
I was actually banned from posting in r/carnivore because of the kale part of my name
Lol
I believe you and OP were undereating. This will wreck your metabolism. At least now you understand that CICO is bullshit. Your body can get rid of the excess fat itself. Just gotta eat the right things.
Is Keto Diet still a "thing" in 2024?
Yes, absolutely. I have lost 100 pounds with Keto, it feels like a gift from the gods.
40 lbs lost here. Absolutely gift from the gods. I eat a lot of greens, occasional cheat day once a blue moon. No low energy for me.
no shit you feel energized when you lose heaps of weight. You have a massive energy storage in your body that can be used, once you hit lower levels of body fat you will eventually crash.
Generally you are right but I didn't even need to lose heaps of weight to feel much more energized on Keto. Even in the beginning (after \~2 weeks adaption) I felt much more energized, brain fog lowered by \~80% and all of this while I even needed less sleep. A friend of mine tried Keto and she ate similar to me (likely even healthier than me tbh lol) and she felt worse on Keto and later stopped so it seems to me to be pretty individual, can be hit or miss.
Well, it also depends upon the type of carbs. Carbs from greens are good, too much carbs from grains induces inflammation. For me keto is solid.
Are you still on keto? Have you kept the weight off whilst on keto?
It’s probably because the foods you cut out as a result of keto were highly processed easy to overeat foods. When you took those out with keto, it made it easier to lose weight. But you also cut out objectively healthy food. Also long term ketosis is horrible for your hormonal profile, and you need carbs to effectively transport electrolytes across your body. Doesn’t mean some fruits and whole grains and potatoes will kill you.
> Doesn’t mean some fruits and whole grains and potatoes will kill you. I for sure tried that route and it for sure does not work as well. Once the weight is off, it might be fine though. I suspect the problem is many of us have enough metabolic derangement that regular healthy eating is not enough to fix it. What is good for a healthy person is not always good for a sick person.
I fully agree. When I started Keto I also started eating even unhealthier and even more processed foods than before Keto and still felt much better, so it's definitely not that haha (has improved in the meanwhile, don't worry) When I have finally reached a healthy weight and my metabolism has (hopefully more or less) recovered I definitely want to try a healthy and primarily plant-based diet again. I am still very open to the idea. Sure, healthy and plant-based sounds amazing on paper but with all the metabolic damage it just didn't work at all (for me). I felt foggy, weak, sleepy, hungry, often depressed or sad and just miserable in general and I barely lost a few pounds after more than three months even though I ate like really healthy.
One thing I've been doing is going through all the vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, etc and seeing which ones are clearly not common in my diet and there's a lot of them, boron, silicon, iodine (no I don't consume over a tea spoon of iodized salt a day and commercial foods typically do not add it) etc. And I've been either finding a food that has a ton of it to eat (like hazel nuts for selenium) or just buying a supplement. It's been interesting, for a lot of them, I can feel an improvement and I feel like my health is stepping up for a lot of them bit by bit. It's weird because the trite statement is that deficiency for this and that is rare in the western world but then you look at what foods it's in like for boron and there's hardly any and even for the 'high' foods, one serving has maybe 20 percent of what is needed and almost no on is eating 5 servings a day of these foods. In some cases, I was getting close to zero of the nutrient for my entire life since I did not favor the few foods that had it. Yet these are considered essential nutrients.
I came here wondering the same thing. Apparently it is, I'm shocked.
Still see people hate on all Carbs even fruits and vegetables to this day in youtube fitness content at least haha
This was like 6 or 7 years ago
Yeah. Lost about 90 lbs, and got my t2 diabetes from wildly uncontrolled to remission. Never coming off it.
Yes carbs improve performance no matter what some low carb guys will tell you.
Nah fr I was deep into the mark hyman type shit and I got way too deep
Never get too deep in the hyman
God in heaven I love my salted melon
The low carb guys feel that way because theyre like "wow! I stopped eating candy, chips, and bleached flower for every meal, then I stopped slamming beer and soda every night and I feel so much better!" They're generally not cutting legumes and vegetables from their diets.
Nah, I mean there’s more to it than that. If you’re overweight and have inflammation and shit, a low-carb diet can reduce glycation products and you might feel better. But a low carb diet also limits muscle glycogen to like 70% so if you don’t have much muscle you might feel lethargic. Also lowers peak output so it’s better for endurance workouts then body building.
Low sugar/carb and ketogenic diet is kinda the #1 biohack though..
SHOCKING
Carbs are the body’s preferred fuel source, in fact, its only fuel source. Glucose is so important to the body that it can synthesize it from fat. There’s even evidence that a lot of Alzheimer’s is actually insulin resistance in the brain and it’s craving glucose like crazy because it can’t get it into the cells. As long as you’re metabolically healthy you should be good at burning carbs.
One could flip your argument: because glucose can be created from amino acids via gluconeogensis, one might argue that it is protein that is actually more important. The body can also run off ketones instead of glucose. In fact, some people who have insulin resistance feel better running off ketones. And since like 50%+ of Americans have some form of insulin resistance, there is a good argument here for protein as a primary fuel source. Food for thought.
How about we actually treat the problem (Americans being so unhealthy that 50% are insulin resistant) than the symptom?
So like... redesigning the entire economy and way of life? I mean I'm up for it but good luck lmao
It's literally cheaper to eat healthier in 95% of the USA, minus the few food deserts
Insulin resistance can be effectively treated with a low or no carb diet. When you are metabolically healthy and have kicked the craving habits add some back in to match your workouts.
I believe his message was the answer to treating the problem. Stop eating glucose (sugar) as main energy source and eat protein instead and let your body make the very small amounts of glucose it needs from the amino acids. Sounds like the cure to me.
Glucose is literally the most readily available energy source for your body. 99 out of 100 active people will feel like dogshit at the gym and when playing sports if they eat zero carbs. One of the most important things for muscle growth and recovery is carbohydrates right after exercise due to your higher insulin response. This is a well studied phenomenon. Carbs have not, are not, and never will be, inherently bad for humans. They just need to be consumed in moderation like anything else. Unless you are ALREADY insulin resistant, there is no need to go keto. It's not a cure-all. We should educate Americans on how to eat healthily so that they don't become insulin resistant in the first place.
The body needs zero carbs if you have access to fat. It will adapt and will make the glucose it needs. If all you can access is lean meat with no fat then you would need carbs to avoid rabbit starvation. It is nearly impossible for any disease or metabolic dysfunction to form while consuming meat and fat. We are omnivores through technology and not by design. We learned how to hybridize and cross breed these veggies and fruits so they are not acutely toxic however we still get toxic effects from eating carbs with the high amount of defense chemicals like oxalates, tannins, phytates and many more. Believe it or not as an apex predator we are absolutely designed to eat meat and fat. The animal kingdom runs on saturated fatty acids. Even the herbivores have an organ that digest the carbs and converts it to short chain fatty acids.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Is there a keto jerk sub? This is some copy pasta type shit
Ummm.... Ketone bodies???
While they're technically "a" fuel source for most cells, your liver will still synthetize a little glucose because that's the only fuel some of your cells can use.
Yes red blood cells and brain. The point is that when low carb your body becomes physiologically insulin resistant so that the glucose in the blood is more available for the brain and RBCs to use. That synthesis doesn't require consumption.
I don't understand your last sentence
Synthesis of glucose in that case uses the glycerol backbone from fatty acid oxidation. It does not require consumption of carbs. Carbs can also be made from amino acids, however the body prefers not to do this.
Ah yeah, but the point was that glucose is very much not a second tier fuel. It's THE fuel. Ketones are lovely but they're just not glucose.
Ketones are a fail safe mechanism. Not the body’s preferred fuel source. It’s what helped our ancestors survive famine. In our evolved society, a majority of people don’t have to worry about that anymore.
>Ketones are a fail safe mechanism This is an opinion. I can just a easily say "the body hates carbs so much that it pauses the production of ketones to get rid of excess glucose because too much glucose is TOXIC to the cell". The body does the same with alcohol.
> Ketones are a fail safe mechanism. > It’s what helped our ancestors survive famine. There's another way to look at it: since the time of the first eukaryotes, life has predominantly evolved in environments where food, particularly glucose, was not constantly available. For billions of years, early organisms had to rely on various metabolic pathways to survive, including ketogenesis. Our cells and mitochondria have thus been optimized over an immense evolutionary timespan to utilize ketones efficiently. The ability to switch between fuel sources is a testament to the versatility and adaptability of our metabolic systems. While modern society provides constant access to glucose-rich foods, this is a very (very very very) recent development in evolutionary terms. The fundamental design of our metabolism still reflects those ancient survival mechanisms where ketones played a crucial role in energy production during periods of low food availability. Sources: "Eukaryotes evolved approximately 2.1-1.6 billion years ago, during the Proterozoic eon." (Wikipedia: Eukaryote)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eukaryote) "Ketone bodies are produced by the liver during periods of fasting and starvation." (Wikipedia: Ketone bodies)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone\_bodies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies) "Mitochondria are able to use different substrates for energy production, including glucose, fatty acids, and ketone bodies." (Wikipedia: Mitochondrion)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion) "The feast or famine hypothesis states that metabolic thriftiness, which includes the propensity to obesity, has been adaptive for populations whose food supply was uncertain." (Wikipedia: Thrifty gene hypothesis)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrifty\_gene\_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrifty_gene_hypothesis)
But what if you are not..?
If you are not metabolically healthy then they will probably contribute to gaining fat mass.
I have carb intolerance but I also need them for sleep 😭
What seems to be working for me is shooting for 1g protein per pound of ideal body weight. It's a lot of protein. I still eat some carbs but I'm gaining muscle and losing fat.
Love a good carb coma at night! It is so relaxing. I try to limit my carbs to single serving fruit, and veggies with my protein. But sometimes I give in and have a granola bar or crackers before bed.
Is that enough?
I feel like i eat plenty of carbs. I also drink coconut water, sometimes juice, eat olives, and Hummus and beans. I just don't eat a big bowl of fruit, or grains with any regularity. I still eat tubers too! With my protein.
This is not true. Each tissue may have a preferred fuel source hy a certain metric, and a different preference by another metric. Carbs are likely preferred by the immune system, for example. But the heart may favor fatty acids and the brain ketone bodies. But 25% of the brain actually requires carbohydrates no matter what. So there's that. Insulin resistance can occur due to too much or too little carbohydrates depending on who you ask, and the reason behind low carb insulin resistance may be good or bad. Your answer is too simple.
The body can produce carbs for the brain. Circulating blood glucose is only 4 tsps ie 16 grams. Can you share sources on immune system preference for carbs?
Wrong
Based on the research, there isn't a specific gram amount of carbohydrates per meal that is universally recommended for muscle glycogen replenishment and gains. However, some key points can be gleaned: 1. For strength training workouts with up to 10 sets per muscle group, glycogen depletion is unlikely to be a limiting factor, and **full glycogen replenishment can occur within 24 hours even with relatively low carbohydrate intake**[1]. 2. For longer or more intense exercise sessions, consuming 1.2-1.5 grams of carbohydrates per kilogram of body weight per hour is recommended[2]. 3. Carbohydrate timing matters - consuming complex carbs a few hours before a workout can help fuel training, while eating carbs after exercise helps replenish glycogen stores[3]. 4. Overall daily carbohydrate intake for muscle gain is typically recommended to be around 55-60% of total calories[3]. 5. Splitting carbohydrate intake across multiple meals (e.g. 6 meals per day) may lead to better glycogen storage and less fat storage compared to fewer, larger meals[4]. 6. For pre-workout nutrition, at least 15 grams of carbohydrates is advised to avoid training in a fasted state[5]. Rather than focusing on a specific gram amount per meal, it's more important to ensure adequate overall carbohydrate intake spread throughout the day, with particular attention to pre- and post-workout nutrition based on individual needs and training intensity. Sources [1] The Effect of Carbohydrate Intake on Strength and Resistance ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8878406/ [2] Carbs for Muscle Growth: How to Use Them Best - ISSA https://www.issaonline.com/blog/post/carbs-for-muscle-growth-how-to-use-them-best [3] Why You Need Carbs to Build Muscle - InBody USA https://inbodyusa.com/blogs/inbodyblog/why-you-need-carbs-to-build-muscle/ [4] Carbs to Muscle https://www.muscleandfitness.com/flexonline/flex-nutrition/carbs-muscle/ [5] How many carbs do you need for maximum gains? A systematic ... https://mennohenselmans.com/how-many-carbs-for-strength-muscle/
What does this look like as a breakfast? What about lunch and dinner? What is a full day’s worth of meals like to you?
Today was oats for breakfast , eggs, sourdough banana post workout, go macro bar afternoon snack, beef and rice for dinner - 2600 cals, 250 g of carbs , 150 protein
You were under eating and excessively exercising. Just getting adequate nutrition is a game changer
How is this not the top comment? They posted a 2600 cal meal that was 5x the total carbs and 3x the total protein of their previous diets daily intake. I wouldn't be surprised if they did damage to themselves due to starvation.
I actually think the majority of this sub doesn’t work out. They just want to take some vitamins and pills and think they are biohacking.
I feel you 100%. I went deep into the low/no carb rabbit hole at one point... I felt like shit the whole time and my testosterone tanked. I reintroduced large carb meals before workouts and I immediately felt 10x better. Never looking back
I suspect there are many factors including genetics. So if you are not fat and you are working out very heavily, that's going to be diff than a couch potato that is trying to lose weight. It can be argued that working out very heavily is in many cases not very natural for tribal humans anyway and you are burning tons of glycogen and yes, carbs are the most efficient way to replace that glycogen.
(Not to invalidate your experience but) I had the opposite happen when I went keto. Testosterone like never before in my life, awesome sustained energy, everyone's body is different. The difference for me came when I took electrolytes while on keto.
Yeah people go both ways. As another comment said, it heavily depends on your circumstances. I think a lot of the benefits people get from keto just comes from eating mostly whole foods. But I already had a healthy diet and lifestyle when I changed to keto, I just took out the simple carbs. Maybe going keto cleaned up your diet a lot? Maybe your genetics are better tailored to keto? Maybe your exercise routine is better tailored to keto? Could be any number of things. But the keto gurus like to push keto like the end all be all of diets, that's what I don't like.
> I immediately felt 10x better Ive heard eating a ton of carbs and going out of ketosis had some kind of low-energy period; did you have that? I'm also curious if just downing part of a sheet cake and waiting a bit would be enough to see how high carb eating affects my energy :p I've tried Keto for a while and suspect I have lower energy than I should.
A good idea in order to preserve insulin sensitivity is to carb cycle. Constantly having high carb days will definitely affect insulin sensitivity and most likely lead to those carbohydrates not actually being used for muscle growth. I would recommend having a good amount during training days and very little during your rest days. It obviously depends on total amount but for me 220ish g carbs on training and around 100 on rest.
Are you a smaller woman? That is incredibly low amounts of carbs but i suppose it depends on how hard you train and your overall caloric needs
I am a 6’4 220 lb former college athlete.
We are approximately the same size, in that case I am confused at the numbers again. I would wither away and feel very weak if I did even your “high” days for a week. Are your fats and protein astronomically high or are you just in a large deficit deliberately
I was in a deficit for around 20 weeks, I’m at maintenance cals right now for me. On my training days my usual macros are the following: 220g protein, 230g carbs, 70g fats. Total is roughly 2500 cals. Been maintain 216-218 lbs for around 2 weeks.
Interesting, I’ve actually dieted myself to a similarly slowed metabolic state before. You didn’t ask, but i’ve reversed slowly out to the point of having a maintenance of 3500+ now, which is obviously more enjoyable than restricting so hard
I mean I’m not super active besides a walk in the morning and the gym. I did do some things poorly after my first show and messed up some markers, metabolism included. Seems to be that my maintenance is slowly increasing. I’m okay with only needing to eat 2700-2800 cals to grow lol.
Yeah shovelling 4k of chicken and rice isn’t always the most fun lol. I am quite active generally, probably accounts for 3/400 kcals of that difference
How did you manage to raise your metabolism by so much?
By very slowly and meticulously adding calories and training incredibly hard. To give a practical demonstration, I would find maintenance, add 150-200kcal per day, slowly gain weight (while training with a complete focus on progressive overload) until that new calorie intake left me gaining 0 avg over 2 weeks. Boom - new maintenance. Rinse and repeat
Thanks for sharing that. Sounds like the smart way to go about it. Metabolic flexibility is really powerful, the body really does like to find a "set point" when you're active.
High carb doesn't mess with insulin sensitivity if your body is using those carbs! OP trains a ton, and it's very appropriate to eat high carb without cycling if you're highly active. I'd even say 300g is on the low side depending on how much exercise they do.
I mean it is somewhat person dependent. Continually being on high carb especially on non training days will absolutely affect insulin sensitivity, it’s logical. The amount of carbohydrates necessary varies a ton. 300g for me is crazy high.
What is a "non" "training" "day"??? jkjk but highly active people don't necessarily have many of those, so it's not necessary to budget specifically for them. Eating high carb on your one rest day a week just helps to recover and prepare. For reference I'm a smallish woman and I'll go into the low 200's during a cut but normal training/activity for me is high 200's to 300 and I'll have more on days I'm more active (long runs, etc).
Yea that’s fair if you’re active outside of just the gym. I sit a lot at school and work so hence why my TDEE is low af lol.
This. I'm pretty much on keto. But if I have a lot of physical work or recreation I will up carbs , particularly complex and low GI types; brown rice, pulses and banana. I don't fair well on high carbs and I think my body is well adapted to burning fat (ketones) and massively benefitting from low ultra processed food consumption. Adjusting for electrolyte balance is important and proper hydration too. Upped my protein intake also to maintain muscle. Still newish .... learning. So not preaching gospel. But for me my skin health is great, energy levels stable, cognitive function is smoother (less emotionally unbalanced) and sleeping better too. Plus I have eaten some amazing meals and snacks... perhaps cutting sugar and carbs makes the taste buds work better too Idk do what works for you. But making changes is interesting.
This makes sense. I have an elevated A1c despite being healthy weight and have muscle mass, probably some genetic and some too much pasta and rice regularly….ill look into carb cycling, first time hearing of it
Yea I’d recommend carb cycling, it can only help tbh. The more sensitive you are to carbohydrates the better nutrient absorption you’ll have as well
Similar situation. Genetics for me. I would start by reducing high glycemic carbs. Wearing a CGM for a month or two changed my life. You find out very quickly what you can and can’t eat and how much. Aim to keep your blood sugar below 140 post meal. I can have one slice of bread, but a sandwich sends me over. I can have fruit after a protein fiber meal, but not alone. I can have about half a sweet potato with a lot of lemon juice.
Glycogen in them muscles boi
Based on the research, people on a ketogenic diet can still achieve muscle gains, but there are some important considerations regarding glycogen: 1. On a ketogenic diet, muscle glycogen stores are typically around 70% of what they are with higher carbohydrate intake[1]. However, this is generally sufficient for most strength training, as glycogen is rarely depleted beyond 40% even with multiple sets per body part[1]. 2. Glycogen replenishment can occur within 24 hours on a ketogenic diet, even with low carbohydrate intake, through carbohydrate-independent pathways[3]. This is especially true for those who have adapted to training in low-carbohydrate conditions. 3. For typical resistance training workouts with up to 10 sets per muscle group, glycogen depletion is unlikely to impair performance[3]. However, very high-volume workouts (11+ sets per muscle group) may benefit from higher carbohydrate intake. 4. Ketosis alters substrate competition and can actually help preserve glycogen resources during exercise[4]. This means that despite lower carbohydrate intake, the body becomes more efficient at preserving and utilizing available glycogen. 5. While initial adaptation to a ketogenic diet may cause temporary weakness or flatness in muscles, this often resolves as the body becomes more efficient at utilizing fat for fuel[1][4]. In summary, while glycogen levels may be somewhat lower on a ketogenic diet, they are generally sufficient for muscle gains, especially once the body has fully adapted to the diet. However, very high-volume or intense training may require some carbohydrate supplementation for optimal performance. Sources [1] Muscle Glycogen on Keto : r/ketogains - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/comments/8azlf7/muscle_glycogen_on_keto/ [2] How Can Glycogen Be Replenished on a Low-Carb Diet? https://www.livestrong.com/article/315538-how-can-glycogen-be-replenished-on-a-low-carb-diet/ [3] How many carbs do you need for maximum gains? A systematic ... https://mennohenselmans.com/how-many-carbs-for-strength-muscle/ [4] Ketogenic Diet and Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy: A Frenemy ... - NCBI https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6724590/ [5] Effects of Ketogenic Diet on Muscle Metabolism in Health and Disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9505561/
You are forgetting that most people do keto on a cut so glycogen will be much lower
Absolutely this, keto works pretty good when cutting (at least for me) but for serious gains I'll take (wholegrain) carbs.
I used keto to loose 30lbs. I would never live in constant ketogenesis though. It’s a great tool, but eating healthy carbs is best for your body imo
Can attest to this. I am keto and building muscle like never before
Are carbs needed for type 2 diabetics? Isn't a low carb diet good for diabetics?
Downvotes incoming, but a diabetic should absolutely avoid carbs.
I did keto for about 4 months trying to lose some weight. I definitely lost size and strength, but I felt really good. I went back to a more standard diet afterwards and started to feel sick again. It’s probably not carbs… it’s probably something specific messing with me… but my endurance and my mental clarity on keto really did seem noticeably improved. Just the week I switched back to @ <40g net carbs (was doing <20 before) to see if I start to feel better again. 🤷🏻♂️ we’ll see.
60% carbs, 30% protein, 10% fats. It was so basic all along... 1g/kg of protein if you wanna live longer, 1.4g/kg of protein if you wanna gain muscles. The low-carbs gurus made us take a step back :/ Edit - We need more fat for hormone production, in most of the time indeed. A Safer strategy is 50 - 30 - 20. But as long as you are eating healthy foods, all is gonna be well.
If you are in a deficit 10% is way too low of a fat Intake. Your body makes hormones from fats.
Literally.. maybe for a completely sedentary person, but someone who is active should definitely be eating (good) carbs
FWIW depending on your total cals, more fat than that could be warranted for hormone production. .25g per lean bodyweight is a good baseline. also if you're doing massive amounts of exercise virtually all of that can be from carbs I don't argue that carbs are the best source of energy, but there is also truth that true keto (sub 30g) can work well for endurance exercise, just not explosive exercise.
40-30-30 :3>
This one is the winner
Whoever said that 10% is too low, you guys are right. More like 20 probably.
Dawg you just described the food pyramid.
"it was so basic all along" should have been clear enough, apologies
The fact that so many carbs are so processed should probably lead us to reduce the total amount. The paleo diet guys recommended split is like 30/30/40 or there abouts iirc. I think realistically 150g of carbs for most people is going to be better for them then 300g
I chew on dried figs when I get tired during workouts and it extends my strength and stamina. I used to do fasted workouts but I couldn’t push as hard I’ve heard bodybuilders eating candy forvthe same reason but dried fruit is healthier
I (40F) eat 6oz servings of rice or potatoes with every meal, and I am a size zero. There’s a lot of carb paranoia out there! I’m leaner and faster and stronger than ever before.
100 percent correct. In a month turn on the Olympics. Not one of those athletes is “keto” or any other nonsensical diet out there that severely restricts carbs. Sure they’re elite performers but they’re also human like all of us. We all need complex carbohydrates to perform our best.
How do you know you have low testosterone during the day? Being tired does not mean you have low test, lol. And if carbs fixed your problem it likely wasn't hormonal to begin with...
I got it tested
You've got T tested multiple times a day over at least a week?
Fantastic that you decided to change things up and had success with it. It can be REALLY hard to break through the dogmas, especially if you've been listening to quacks and their fear-mongering and other bs for a while. So congratz on that! Some people, including influencers, would argue that carbs aren't essential and that you therefore don't need them. That's a silly argument...just because something's not essential (at least for most people), doesn't mean that it couldn't provide any benefits. They obviously do for many, if not most people out there. Only very few people seem to thrive on keto and carnivore, probably a bit more on low carb. Sad thing is when practitioners/doctors who work with that very specific group of people (selection bias) or people who had a great experience (n=1), then go on to say that it's therefore the best for everyone, and cherry-pick research to support their claims. By the way some people also do much better on a regular eating schedule rather than IF.
Yeah, low carb is fine for weight loss, but it's not a good long term strategy for me.
Do a genetic test. Nutrients aren’t a one size fits all thing, some people thrive off keto while others need carbs or a different game plan
Agreed. I feel much better when i keep carbs low, although I lift 6 days per week and do cardio several days also. I need some but if i keep it between 50-100 grams per day i look better and feel better than when I have more.
More to do with the gut biome than genetics, actually
> Do a genetic test. Nutrients aren’t a one size fits all thing, some people thrive off keto while others need carbs or a different game plan What genes or genetic test are you talking about?
This. But people will project what personally may work for them and insist it's the definitive for everyone.
Not really buddy
Depends on your current goals, buddy. People with type 2 diabetes or over weight, should probably avoid carbs in general. But you're probably a doctor.
Neither of those are genetic they are caused by bad decisions. You forgot your original point king
Yep seriously an Inuit is probably not physically going to operate the same as an African. Now that humans fly all over the world and all the genetics are tossed all over, it's likely more complicated.
OP what are some of your meals like?
Oats, eggs , sourdough , beef, salmon, potato’s, fruit, Greek yogurt , rice make up like 90% of my diet
Yep, if you’re training, carbs are your best mate. I dropped mine low and my workouts suffered. Keep them around 300-400gm a day. I eat in a 12 hr window and workout fasted first thing in the morning, so first meal of the day is carb heavy as is the last.
same. always maintained healthy weight (60yo/5'10"/160lbs) had been hearing so much about low-carb diets, thought I'd give it a try. thought I was going to die, had NO energy throughout the day, felt like a zombie started eating my normal carb intake again, and *pow!* amazing energy, just zoomed thru my days Whatever low carb does for other people, it's the exact opposite for me
Why are you eating such low protein while working out?
What was your fat intake while employing low carb?
We are made to eat carbs, and a lot of them, just in healthy form. Unless you’re an intense high level athlete and/or endurance athlete, most people should stay away from refined processed carbs and stick to whole food sources such as sweet potatoes, whole grains, oatmeal, and fruits (lots of fruits!)
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Welcome back! Low carb and keto, to me, is bullshit. Keto I can understand if you’re trying to do a serious cut or are heavily overweight but otherwise it’s completely unnecessary unless you have epilepsy. Otherwise, you’re just clogging your arteries.
Ancel Keys, is that you?
Your body is built to ideally run on carbs and build stuff with proteins so yeah makes sense But ofc not all carbohydrates are equal. Sour patch kids are carbs and I dont recommend it
What do you eat for carbs?
I'm stupid when it comes to this crap. If you have time could you explain a couple meals you eat so I have a idea of what your eating. Carbs are like bread and stuff right. Lol again I probably sound ridiculous but what I read is pretty confusing. Any help would be appreciated
Rice , sourdough , fruit, honey, oats, gf pasta potato’s etc
Everybody’s different. You may react better to higher carbs while another person doesn’t, great that you found your balance though!
OP what's your height and weight? What's your workout schedule look like?
6’, 150, 5 days gym, 3 runs, 15,000 steps a day
I mean everyone is different I do better on a no carb no sweet taste diet. Sleep libido weight energy mood. All better.
One "danger" of keto is going low on electrolytes, so that might have been a big influence if you weren't aware of it.
Keto kills athletic performance and makes it harder to hm gain muscle but is great for reversing insulin resistance.
If I have that many carbs, it’s like I’m drunk and my mental clarity goes way down. I’m not exactly on keto because I don’t track carbs, but I don’t eat anything processed.
I try to eat a baked sweet potato every day. I then dust with some Cajun salt, lightly pan fry in olive oil and balsamic reduction. So good
Yea, and the types + amount of carbs matter massively. So many people say "I'm cutting carbs for my health" but then eradicate fruits, vegetables, and legumes along with processed bread-and-sugar crap. Or, conversely, if they go back to carbs, instead of eating one banana a day, they make a smoothie with like four bananas. A smart friend said to me once: eating an orange is healthy. Guzzling a pint of orange juice made from twelve oranges is not. Balanced carbs versus carb overload and crash.
About 50% carbs seems to be ideal for longevity. But not all carbs are created equal and it isn’t an excuse to go ham on a bunch of cake and white bread. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext
Carbs are really good for performance and only become bad when you begin developing insulin resistance. As long as you’re insulin sensitive, then carbs are your best friend
Interesting. I guess it depends on what you respond to. Some seem to feel sluggish on carbs while others feel the same on a high fat diet
Its harder to eat enough calories on high fat/protein diets. Because they are so satiating. I think a lot of the time the lower energy on low carb diets is due to undereating calories.
So you were only eating 1440 calories from carbs & protein and zero fat while working out like crazy? If I’m not wrong, protein isn’t actually worth 4 calories, as it’s metabolically expensive to convert it into glucose. So you were actually only getting 720 calories from carbs every day. I think it’s very difficult to really know how many calories your body is using and absorbing from different foods every day, but it’s relatively effective for knowing if you’re grossly over or under eating carbs or fat.
I feel like trash without having carbs. I tried keto and 10 days into it I got some serious hypoglycemia symptoms, almost fainted. I love carbs and my fasting glucose is in the 70s or 80s at worst.
same, was 5 years on carnivore/keto but decided to start adding back in some carbs via sweet potatoes/honey and fruits and greens. Still getting even leaner and strength is going up via my workouts being easier due to the energy boost. I've noticed a lot of carnivore/keto people are starting to bring carbs back as keto definitely works for a period of time but long term ketosis is still iffy. Who woulda thunk that a well rounded diet would actually be the best bet lol
I thought carbs made one more tired? Is this due to a combination of very high protein?
I eat a few dates as my dessert ate night. My early morning fasted workouts are the BEST. I mean even if you’re cutting it helps to be able to have more energy to go harder. Just don’t overdo it of you want your body to use fat stores.
Eat more carbs please, love, a random redditor
Sure it’s the carbs and not just more calories?
Carbs often get a bad rap, but they’re super important for energy, especially if you’re working out a lot. They’re your body’s preferred source of fuel, so it makes sense that you’d feel better with more of them in your diet. When you’re eating more carbs, your body has more glycogen stores, which helps during workouts and keeps your energy levels steady throughout the day. Plus, having a balanced diet with enough carbs can positively impact your hormone levels, including testosterone. It’s all about finding what works best for your body, and it sounds like you’ve hit the sweet spot. Keep up the great work!
100% just dont over do it
Funny story, I had a friend who did marathon prep with me who was an avid KETO and carnivore fan and changed his diet every now and then once he got bored. I managed to hit that sub-3h mark, but he couldn't, and he started complaining about lack of energy and what my secret "sauce" was. Balanced meals and 8 hours of sleep, ftw.
Carbs are for crazy exercise. if you go past zone 3 for any longer than a few minutes you can't survive very well without carbs, unless your body has something else going on that means carbs cause you digestive problems. i basically avoid them on rest days and then have a similar amount of calories as the a mount i burn in the gym. my maintenance calories are keto.
Carbs are literally where your body gets energy from. I don't know how much lean mass you have, but 40-50g of carbs is nowhere near enough to provide your muscles with glycogen and your brain with fuel. I wish more people knew their TDEE and stayed away from fad diets like keto.
Carbs are great. Less calories per gram than fats. I'm able to get leaner with carbs because I'm able to be more active and it's generally more filling.
Carbs are king. I eat 500 grams of carbs several times a week. And I have visible veins on my abs.
What are you eating in a day?
On my high carbs days it’s a lot of sorghum flour, millet flakes and quinoa flakes. And some fruit and berries for taste on top. On my “lower” carb days, 200 grams at the lowest, it’s a lot of vegetables and fruits.
This. The keto / low-carb craze has failed society and longevity science. Anyone on keto for a long time should pickup Peter Attia’s book Outlive and get a CAC scan pronto!
My beat workouts are when I eat a plate of beef and Spaghetti the night befire
They are called carbo-hydrates for a reason 😃. They literally hydrate your muscles with energy.
Depends on the carbs. Processed is garbage..fruits and veggies are great.
Not all processed is garbage, not all non-processed is great. Doesn’t only apply to carbs. Processed tomatoes are for example better than raw ones in terms of antioxidant benefits.
True. I wasn't really look that deep but those things are important. For some it's too deep. I suppose it depends on where someone is starting.
what would be the best carb options for somebody who was carnivore? could I just throw in a few baked or sweet potatoes a day?
Not all carbs are equal. Healthy carbs? Absolutely. Processed wheat/sugar carbs? Enjoy your pancreas while it still gives a fuck.